Merged: Senate Inquiry

[Offchocks]

breakfastburrito

I remember that story from 2-3 years ago, if I have it right the problem was the guys were new to the company doing the endorsement on the aircraft at their expence. Petty tough financially when you have just come out of GA.

[Capn Bloggs]

John, you're being simplistic. "a few hours" would cost thousands of dollars. Real SIMs aren't Link Trainers. They cost an arm and a leg to run. You don't just hop in, turn on the key and go for a drive. A standards line has to be drawn in the sand somewhere. If a pilot regularly needs "hours" extra SIM time to make the grade or not get overstressed then maybe there is a talent/skill problem.

Good job for a checkie on his days off, I suppose. Run a tutoring class in the SIM!

The problem with SIM time, as I see it, is that more and more is being squeezed into the same time. That will eventually lead to ineffective SIM training (or time only for checking?).

You will find that some pilots have unlimited access and others have no access
Which company?

[Capt Kremin]

QF allows pilots to book a sim session for practice. No motion though.

[The Kelpie]

Remember this? Pmsl

Jetstar backs Senate safety inquiry into pilot training | The Australian

Steve Creedy From: The Australian October 15, 2010 12:00AM

JETSTAR chief Bruce Buchanan welcomes a Senate inquiry into pilot training and incident reporting as a chance to get facts on the table.

Mr Buchanan said this week that the Qantas Group would be putting a submission to the inquiry that would cover Qantas, Jetstar and QantasLink.

It would also be happy to send representatives to the inquiry if required.

"It's good to get the facts out," Mr Buchanan said. "What we need to separate here is what's the union political agenda and what's the real issues on the table. And there are real issues and it's good to get them out on the table and debate and discuss them."

The Senate committee inquiry was championed by independent senator Nick Xenophon and will look at several issues hotly debated by pilots.

These include the consequences for safety from reductions in pilot flight hour requirements, as well as whether Australia should adopt recent US requirements that a pilot operating regular public transport (RPT) services has at least 1500 flight hours.

It will also look at how regulators are dealing with advancing technology, pilot recruitment, and whether pay-for-training schemes affect safety and incident reporting in Australia.

Mr Buchanan said some of the issues reported during the debate on training had lacked substance and were misleading.

He had no problem with changes if something was not right, but the debate so far had not pointed to "anything of substance that we can see at the moment".

He found that many of the matters being wound into the debate, such as a 2007 Jetstar incident and commentary about pilots reporting directly to the Australian Transport Safety Bureau, were bizarre. "That's what got us into hot water -- we copied word-for-word what the pilots reported to us and gave it to the ATSB," Mr Buchanan said.

"It was only internal checking that actually registered an anomaly. The concept of a pilot having free access to the ATSB was what occurred in this instance."

Mr Buchanan rejected inferences that it was somehow in the interest of airlines to bypass safety. He said the Qantas Group had always been a passionate believer that safety was the first priority.

Unions also have been expressing fears that Jetstar is using its pan-Asian network to slash wages and conditions.

Mr Buchanan called for debate about the broader prospects for Australian aviation and what that meant in terms of a strong local base.

"We're in a business where we've got declining market share in international traffic and declining relevancy," he said. "That should be the bigger concern for the unions and the employees.

"We as a nation, if we're not careful, will cease to be competitive with the rest of the world."

He said competitiveness was not about safety, which was one of the Qantas Group's competitive strengths. "Competitiveness is about how we band together and create a stronger, viable business . . . and also the flow-on benefits to the rest of the tourism industry," he said.

[Going Boeing]

Steve Creedy is renowned for regurgitating airline management spin - he's never done any research to provide "balance" to any of his articles.

If the Qantas pilots end up having to take Protected Industrial Action, he will write it as a pay dispute (at management instructions) rather than a dispute over saving our jobs.

[Low and Fast]

FU&K
I admire your passionate interest in all of this Kelpie, you surely do have your finger on the pulse I must say, not just this post but all the correspondence relating to safety. Lets hope that the senators do see through this smokey haze or should I say fog and act in the interest of Australian air safety, **** I guess I should also say, would they feel safe flying with an airline:D on a regular basis as they do with a 200hr wet behind the ears cadet ? I THINK NOT would you ?

Keep up the great work.

[Centaurus]

The experienced GA pilot route has worked in the past only because the airline has trained out the bad habits that many have picked up along the way and I have seen some appalling examples of poor discipline and flying practices in the bush

One needs to be careful of generalising when you say "the airline has trained out the bad habits that many (GA) pilots have picked up along the way."

I have flown with some bloody awful airline pilots and bloody dodgy RAAF pilots too and some excellent ones. I am never quite sure exactly what these "bad habits" are by general aviation pilots. In any large operation be it airline or GA, out of any say 10 pilots you will often find two very good pilots - two in the well below average category - and the rest normal average pilots. I have watched airliners taxiing far too fast for the circumstances and with inevitable hot brakes. Maybe the captain was a former GA pilot with a bad habit? Obviously that bad habit wasn't trained out of him. I have seen some really shaky crosswind landings in Boeings. Wonder why those pilots haven't got that bad habit, too, trained out of them. On the other side of the coin I have seen some superb crosswind landings done by skillful general aviation pilots.

I simply don't buy the tired old argument that because one is a general aviation pilots you are full of bad habits. It is a load of bollocks. Is a REX cadet first officer taught at the much vaunted elite REX Wagga training school have any more skills that his GA brother brought up on the other side of the tracks? Yes he has - but only at monitoring an automatic pilot in a Saab from 500 ft after lift off to 200 feet on final. Let's face it -that doesn't require pilot skills.

[CaptCloudbuster]

That Kelpie is just like a dog with a bone!:D

Keep up the good work...

[KRUSTY 34]

KELPIE.

World's smartest Dawg!:ok:

[Mr. Hat]

No air-time from Virgin boss John Borghetti | Herald Sun (http://www.heraldsun.com.au/business/no-air-time-from-virgin-boss-john-borghetti/story-e6frfh4f-1226016196230?from=public_rss)

http://resources0.news.com.au/images/2010/12/06/1225966/585768-john-borghetti.jpg

Geoff Easdown From: Herald Sun March 06, 2011 12:00AM

VIRGIN Blue chief John Borghetti can expect an angry grilling from senators when he gives evidence to their high-level committee on pilot training and airline safety later this month.

Mr Borghetti offended key committee members by opting to be on a flight last Friday rather than appear before a specially convened committee hearing at which evidence was being tabled from the heads of Australia's three major airlines.

Both Mr Borghetti's absence and the no-show of Virgin's chief pilot Sean Donohue, sparked an angry outburst from one senator who asked whether Virgin was taking a serious approach to air safety.

Independent Senator Nick Xenophon also described as "an insult" the brevity of Virgin's two-page submission.

"Please take this back, Mr Borghetti, I think a two-page submission is an insult to the committee and to the travelling public," he told two lower-ranked executives who attended the hearing in place of the CEO and Capt Donohue - who was called away to fly to earthquake-devastated Christchurch.

Senator Xenophon this week fired off a 16-page question sheet - aimed largely at Qantas and its low-cost offshoot Jetstar - after being dissatisfied with answers at the inquiry.

Virgin Blue corporate affairs head Danielle Keighery told BusinessDaily last night Mr Borghetti was committed to flying to the Middle East last week to host the launch of the airline's Australia-Abu Dhabi service.

She said the committee was advised of the clash but no new dates were offered.

"If you look at the actual inquiry two things I would say is that they were very technical issues that were being discussed and it is a very unusual practice for a CEO to go," she said.

Senior Liberal senator Bill Heffernan, who chairs the committee, agreed that some senators were concerned that they could not get detailed answers from the two Virgin Blue executives who appeared.

Mr Borghetti, Qantas CEO Alan Joyce, Jetstar Group chief Bruce Buchanan are to be recalled when the hearings resume on March 19 because of fresh information given to the committee.

The matters include an incident where a Jetstar A320 aircraft came within 11.5m of the ground during a missed approach at Tullamarine on July 21, 2007.

Unless there has been some strange changes at Virgin Sean Donohue is not the Chief Pilot. His title is "Group Executive - Operations". I don't think Airlines have "Chief Pilots" these days. They are called Head of Flight Operations from memory. I'm generally wrong half the time though!

Does anybody know where I can view the last hearing? Is there a video file available?

[flying-spike]

Mr Donohue is not the Chief pilot but the 2IC of the Airline and as far as his ability to represent the airline on flight safety matters, if you read his biography (just Google him), he holds the rare distinction of being the only non-pilot to hold the position of Senior Vice President Flight Operations (and On-Board Services) for United Airlines. So I suggest the Herald Sun brush up on their facts. united.com - Press release detail (http://www.united.com/press/detail/0,6862,54643,00.html)

Still, 2 pages? Really! Even if Senator H. can't control his aspirations as an amatuer comedian , it is a fairly high level forum and it is a serious (deadly) subject.

[The Kelpie]

Mr Hat

There is no link to last Friday's hearing, they are simply not available but if you have a hunt around on the web broadcasting area of the aph website you will find a number and email you can use to obtain (purchase I think) a copy.

Certainly would be worth a few dollars I think.

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[Lookleft]

The transcripts are sent to the parties concerned to check for errors so they would eventually be available on the Senate website.

I'm surprised that Borghetti hasn't learnt the lessons from Dixon that you need to have the pollies on side if you want favourable considerations for your business at some point in the future.

[PLovett]

The Kelpie, I think we are in broad agreement but where we differ is that I don't think there will be an overabundance of people wanting to be airline pilots in the future for all the reasons that you and others have posted.

Nor do I think it is a good thing for young aspirants to go off and get a mountain of debt. I really think that the airline cadet pilot scheme as offered by the better overseas airlines (or the original QANTAS scheme) is preferable where there is a shortage of applicants.

Centaurus, yes my comments were a generalisation and you have far more experience and knowledge of the airline industry than I but my comments were based on a conversation I had with a senior QANTAS C & T captain. He was explaining the reason why QANTAS recruited pilots with lower experience levels than other Australian airlines.

[The Kelpie]

PLovett

I think we are on the same page.

I am sure that you will find that if the airlines are required to fund cadetships then these arrangements will become a thing of the past in Australia.

All the 'spin' presented to the inquiry so far has focussed on how cadets produce a better product than the GA route and that they are 'safer' or at least as safe. If the Senate Inquiry endorses the cadet route subject to strict rules, including that the airline must run courses in house, sponsor all but say 50k and take the risk on training outcome then I am sure that we will soon see a u-turn on this stance.

As it stands Cadets are taking a huge risk, either they do not realise this which suggests that they do not have the required maturity to operate an aircraft ,or, if they are aware that they have an attitude to risk taking that has no place in a flight deck.

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[Mud Skipper]

Just out of interest what was the background of the crew member responsible for taking the 747 cross country in BKK?

Also, as an aside, it's one thing to put a green cadet in the back of a widebody for four or five+ years as Qantas has in the past but this should be clearly seperated from the RHS on an A320 in domestic ops. Fact is you may half learn some simple procedures in a few hundred hours but you could never gain the depth or experience you get from the military or GA. Fact.

[Red Jet]

I have watched airliners taxiing far too fast for the circumstances and with inevitable hot brakes. Maybe the captain was a former GA pilot with a bad habit?
Centaurus, I have nothing but the highest regard for your experience and willingness to continue to share your wealth of knowledge with the community. You may however - as was the case a while ago with your input into the discussion regarding the use of modern Multi-Scan WX radar systems - wish to reconsider the examples you use to illustrate the point you're putting across. On many modern airliner equipped with carbon brakes, the recommended taxi method - in fact the only practical way to manage the residual thrust - is to allow the aircraft to accelerate up to 30 knots (where congestion is not a factor) - and then using A SINGLE application of the brakes to slow it down to about 10 knots, before allowing idle thrust acceleration up to 30 knots again -and so on.
The idle thrust on the GE 90-115B that I fly is simply too high, particularly in a light aircraft to "ride the brakes" to maintain what you would traditionally call a "normal" and steady taxi speed.

[The Kelpie]

Serious Question:

How much duty time do Airline Companies give to pilots to prepare Safety reports?

[airtags]

Kelpie - answer is nil, naught, zip, none!

.....same for FO's, SO's & even CC.....half the time you're expected to bugger around with third world company remote access sites to even download the forms!

The management theory is simple - without inputs the SMS and the regulatory reporting regime is arrested......so therefore the concept is to make it as difficult as possible for crew to report.

...exception is of course unless embattled airline has done a deal with 60 mins for a puff piece to deflect the hard questions, in which case the answer is "all the time and whatever support that you need."

As I said before if the good Senator's Bill gets up - the key will be WHO will manage and respond......aviation's version of ICAC with an iPhone/iPad incident reporting app seems like a good idea to me!

Looking forward to the 19th.......!!

AT :E

PS: Info from CC - The Orange Emperor and his Jester were again seen well dug in enjoying P class onboard a 380 headed for SIN ......obviously the JQ 330 service & comfort is not quite to their liking!

[The Kelpie]

Airtags

Hmmmmm a particularly relevant fact for the inquiry I think!!

Is the recall on Saturday 19th March??

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[framer]

.....same for FO's, SO's & even CC.....half the time you're expected to bugger around with third world company remote access sites to even download the forms!


Good point. The last thing a pilot feels like doing after a 12 hour day is spending 20 mins of his or her own time filling out a seemingly minor system improvement form for something that happened ten hours ago, yet its this sort of info that builds the big picture for the safety people. Should be easy and done in work time, ie by filling out a pdf in the EFB during cruise and it sends with the EFB update.

[Centaurus]

but my comments were based on a conversation I had with a senior QANTAS C & T captain. He was explaining the reason why QANTAS recruited pilots with lower experience levels than other Australian airlines

Yet if you look at the advertisements for RFDS pilots and the Global Express corporate pilots, their flying experience requirements far exceed those of Qantas intakes.

There is something not quite right when these general aviation pilots with such solid command experience under their belts, are metaphorically laughed out of the Qantas interview room in favour of an Oxford Air Training cadet who has barely flown more than 150 miles radius from his own flying school and most of that time with the comfort of an instructor to look after him.

[mcgrath50]

There is something not quite right when these general aviation pilots with such solid command experience under their belts, are metaphorically laughed out of the Qantas interview room in favour of an Oxford Air Training cadet who has barely flown more than 150 miles radius from his own flying school and most of that time with the comfort of an instructor to look after him.


Since when has Qantas favored them for direct entry? As far as I know they would still need to go and build hours somewhere like anyone else.

Cadets are a different matter but as already stated they are only a relatively small % of recruits, who are assessed differently to your normal graduate from Swinburne/Oxford.

Either way the Qants recruit ends up as a S/O for a number of years. Let's not confuse this process with the Jetstar Cadetship system that IS as you stated above!

[Tankengine]

It is not that Qantas PREFERS lower experience but because of the S/O situation they can accept lower hours.:8

[Sarcs]

Here it is finally!http://www.aph.gov.au/hansard/senate/commttee/S13559.pdf

[The Kelpie]

Oh dear Oh dear Oh Dear

I think you have some explaining to do Bruce

....and you mr Rindfleish. You are supposed to be a chief pilot and you don't seem to know that the absolute minimum hours for a cpl is 150.

How can you say that your checked to line cadets have 300 hours and then say most of this is in the A320?? Do Oxford cadets do their cpl and instrument rating in the Airbus? It's the only possible explanation for your statement.

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[Capt_SNAFU]

How many hours do they have on their first flight in an A320? I think the senators should be made aware of what they start line training with not how many hours they have at the end of line training.

As far as I know you still have pax on board when you are line training and still do the takeoffs and landings. I know I did on the 737 on my first of 60 odd sectors of line training. (60 something was the minimum number of sectors that you complete line training in at the time I went through) I'm sure if they said the first sector they operated as crew they had 200 hours of actual time in the aircraft on their first flight then the senators might be a little shocked.

[The Kelpie]

SNAFU

You are spot on. I know a senator that may be interested. Drop him a quick email, I am sure he will be interested.

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[whatever6719]

Just saw an advert for the 7.30 Report. A feature all about the QF pilots dispute on. Tonight (Tuesday 8March 1930 ABC1)
Let's hope it's done well.

[The Kelpie]

Quote of the day.


That is why people should continue to travel with Qantas, because if that [QF32] had happened on another airline, you might not have had the experience that you had with Qantas.

Alan Joyce 25th February 2011



CLASSIC!!!!

[Hugh Jarse]

Agreed, Kelpie.

It would most likely have been handled with equal aplomb by any other airline equipped with A380's.

Only with more engaged staff.

[4dogs]

Snafu,

I am sure I misread your post, but many people beginning line training these days have zero hours of actual flight time in that type and as little as 16 hours manipulating and 16 hours supporting in the simulator. :eek: :eek:

That they may start with only 220-230 flight hours in light aircraft of minimal relevance to the type in which they are going to be carrying passengers is something that AJ and Boston Bruce will strenuously avoid admitting on record. They, including MR, showed an uncanny ability to avoid answering direct questions and managed to obfuscate with relative ease - pretty tough on non-technical Senators faced with a miniscule 45 minute window to expose the ills of the Empire! :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

It will be interesting to watch whethered they get skewered on friday 18 Mar 11...

Stay Alive,

[The Kelpie]

Hugh Jarse

I was more thinking of AJ referring to Jetstar!!!...after all they are another airline. LOL


HE HE HE

[The Kelpie]

4dogs - did you get my PM?

[4dogs]

Kelpie & Huge,

PMs received - will respond shortly. :D

Stay Alive

[Capt_SNAFU]

4dogs Most airlines that operate you larger (embraer size and bigger) RPT don't run base training or any training in the real aircraft without pax if the have level 5+ sims. Not required. Admittedly it was interesting having pax onboard on my first landing in a 737 and I had a fair bit more than 200 hours.

[BuildnTime]

Foreign pilots or keen young Australians wanting to fulfill their dream?

When this is over that's who you'll see in the right seat.
Yes, we have plenty of pilots, you say. Where were they all 3 years ago? Situation is only going to get worse if this goes through.

Where are all these low time pilot Incidents?

Where are the facts (human factors) that low time ICUS pilots are unsafe?

Expanded CRM and increased frequency scenario simex for low time pilots, in my opinion.

I think the REX statement about GA contamination was miss interpreted. From their point of view, a glass empty is better than a glass nearly full.
Management prefer it throughout industries that have frequent staff turnover.

Down and clear.

[Artificial Horizon]

Buildntime,

I agree, there is no evidence whatsoever that 'low time' equals dangerous. I have said it many times before and will say it again, cadets can and do make very good airline pilots. I have been involved in a cadet scheme for a legacy carrier overseas, they take 180 hour pilots out of flying school and then give them a Jet Orientation Course in the simulator before typerating them and clearing them to line with around 250 hours tt onto A320's, 737's, 757's and 767's. The 'cadet' would do the J.O.C. with either Oxford Aviation in the UK or CTC just as the Jetstar Cadets are doing. This legacy carrier's training system is no better or worse than that of Jetstar and they are regarded as one of the safest in the world.

What this inquiry should be about is fatigue, terms and conditions and regulatory oversight!! The thing that killed everyone onboard that DCH-8 in Buffalo was not crew inexperience (both had over 1,500 hours) it was fatigue!! Returning from a duty at 3am in the morning to then report at 13.30 that same day for a 4 sector day shouldn't be allowed. Pilots should not have to 'pay' for their training, this should be legislated against, bonding pilots is acceptable to ensure a return for investment is fine but no money should be taken from the pilot. Companies should have to compensate all pilots for medicals, licences, uniforms, manuals etc

Finally CASA should get a bloodly bullet!! Why do they seem to give 'exemptions' to the airlines so willingly, why were flight time limitations relaxed to allow high capacity low cost operators to work pilots for longer?? Why did CASA give an exemption to allow operators to fly with one less Cabin Crew Member than legislated for, why are all the reductions in safety i.e. reduction of minimum training hours, increase in duty hours all approved by CASA...... Because they are an extension of airline management and have become useless in their regulatory role. Boston Bruce was right in his testimony about the fact that Alteon doesn't even use A320 experienced instructors when he said 'CASA approves the training organisation'. CASA needs a good slap!! Who approved the Jetstar Cadet Scheme.... CASA, why are the cadets not flying in New Zealand, because the New Zealand CAA said 'no-way' not until they have 500 hours rpt, did CASA enforce such a limit.. NO, they approved the Cadet scheme.

Rant over.:ugh:

[The Kelpie]

Finally CASA should get a bloodly bullet!! Why do they seem to give 'exemptions' to the airlines so willingly, why were flight time limitations relaxed to allow high capacity low cost operators to work pilots for longer?? Why did CASA give an exemption to allow operators to fly with one less Cabin Crew Member than legislated for, why are all the reductions in safety i.e. reduction of minimum training hours, increase in duty hours all approved by CASA...... Because they are an extension of airline management and have become useless in their regulatory role. Boston Bruce was right in his testimony about the fact that Alteon doesn't even use A320 experienced instructors when he said 'CASA approves the training organisation'. CASA needs a good slap!! Who approved the Jetstar Cadet Scheme.... CASA, why are the cadets not flying in New Zealand, because the New Zealand CAA said 'no-way' not until they have 500 hours rpt, did CASA enforce such a limit.. NO, they approved the Cadet scheme.

Send an email to Senator X. I am sure he would be interested, particularly in the last point which is why the newly minted cadets do their initial line training and flying in Aus and not their 'home base' in New Zealand.

Send the email and it may prompt the good Senator to ask CASA the questions when they are recalled before the committee next week.

More to Follow

The Kelpie

Ps Rumour has it JQ Cadets grounded UFN.

[Oxidant]

What this inquiry should be about is fatigue, terms and conditions and regulatory oversight!! The thing that killed everyone onboard that DCH-8 in Buffalo was not crew inexperience (both had over 1,500 hours) it was fatigue!! Returning from a duty at 3am in the morning to then report at 13.30 that same day for a 4 sector day shouldn't be allowed. Pilots should not have to 'pay' for their training, this should be legislated against, bonding pilots is acceptable to ensure a return for investment is fine but no money should be taken from the pilot. Companies should have to compensate all pilots for medicals, licences, uniforms, manuals etc

Finally CASA should get a bloodly bullet!! Why do they seem to give 'exemptions' to the airlines so willingly, why were flight time limitations relaxed to allow high capacity low cost operators to work pilots for longer?? Why did CASA give an exemption to allow operators to fly with one less Cabin Crew Member than legislated for, why are all the reductions in safety i.e. reduction of minimum training hours, increase in duty hours all approved by CASA...... Because they are an extension of airline management and have become useless in their regulatory role. Boston Bruce was right in his testimony about the fact that Alteon doesn't even use A320 experienced instructors when he said 'CASA approves the training organisation'. CASA needs a good slap!! Who approved the Jetstar Cadet Scheme.... CASA, why are the cadets not flying in New Zealand, because the New Zealand CAA said 'no-way' not until they have 500 hours rpt, did CASA enforce such a limit.. NO, they approved the Cadet scheme.




Senator X. I hope you are looking..............

[Mstr Caution]

An interesting comment BB made in the senate Inquiry was that the New Zealand based cadets would be earning $200k in 6 years.

So either:

1. He was talking sh*t to the senators to make it appear as though the wage growth was impressive as an J* NZ F/O.

or

2. That the cadets would obtain commands within 6 years with the appropriate increase in pay.

So, unless it was Bu!!sh*t. BB's indicating all the growth will be in the overseas based operations.

I find it interesting that BB's strategy is forecasting growth 6 years down the track.

As mainline couldn't tell you what was happening over the next 12 months until the new flying program is realised. (due out this month)

I've heard repeatedly recently, that until the mainline flying program is realeased there is no indication of recruitment or promotions within mainline for the subsequent 12 months. (If there will be any at all)

So, how can J* NZ crystal ball it six years down the track! Unless of course it's the only growth strategy & their not letting us in on the secret.

[RENURPP]

An interesting comment BB made in the senate Inquiry was that the New Zealand based cadets would be earning $200k in 6 years.
1. He was talking sh*t to the senators to make it appear as though the wage growth was impressive as an J* NZ F/O.
or
2. That the cadets would obtain commands within 6 years with the appropriate increase in pay.

So, unless it was Bu!!sh*t. BB's indicating all the growth will be in the overseas based operations.


Or
3. their business plan:mad: has the cadets leaving Jokestar after six years for greener pastures where they can earn $200k. Fiddling with the truth :eek:

[Roller Merlin]

Master Caution, BB said a cadet may earn $200K in six years because his misguided belief and supportive spin is that these cadets may have commands in six years - such is the woeful level of understanding these people have of real operational safety matters. They have never experienced the smoking hole - they rely on their spreadsheets, risk laden advice from bonus-seeking staff, and a lot of hope. Disgraceful.

Artificial Horizon's rant is spot on - Fatigue will be the killer as they stretch our duty times, increase crew pressure to extend beyond roster times, and require us to operate back home fatigued (then drive home) to save them money and allow intermediate base closures. CASA exemptions are a sham. The relationships between the regulator and airline management need a rocket.

[Xcel]

$200k in 6 years or $200k over 6 years??

200/6= $33,333.33

one word in the sentence and he might be closer to the truth than we realise :yuk:

[The Kelpie]

Xcel

you may be closer to the truth than you think as there seemed to be a lot of flitting between currencies in his evidence.

Consider this:

Year 1 - 42,000NZD
Year 2 - 42,000NZD
Year 3 - 42,000NZD
Year 4 - 54,000NZD
Year 5 - 54,000NZD
Year 6 - 54,000NZD

Total - 288,000NZD

Multiply by current exchange = $211,000AUD over 6 years

......and then a jump from 54,000NZD to $200,000 (NZD/AUD??) ...I don't think so!!!

BINGO

More to Follow

the Kelpie

[Mstr Caution]

BB - Our cadets in their first year are earning $67,000 a year, and they can expect after six years that they could be earning up to $200,000 a year.


BB stated they can EXPECT that they COULD be earning $200K per year.

But they may have no intention of paying this figure.

MC

[The Kelpie]

Here is another Bruce-ism


The conditions are fairly good. That is why, when we advertised for 80 cadet positions, we had 4,800 applications.


...and do you know why you got that many applicants, all willing to pay $300 for selection plus flights, accomodation etc.?

Because you did not tell anyone that they would be employed in New Zealand on effectively casual contract with absolutely pitful salaries with conditions of employment that belong in a bygone era. The cadets that did get in were only given access to all these details on their first day at Oxford to start training. Some had the balls to pull out at that stage after resigning jobs rather than subject themselves to 6 years of poverty, misery and uncertainty.

In my experience this is extremely shonky practice!!

.....and don't think you are off the hook Oxford because you were the ones running this circus on behalf of Jetstar. Shonky practice that does not fit in with the professional image you tried to peddle to the senator last Friday Mr Petteford. Oxford are only interested in drawing down the FEE HELP loans!

In the UK, Oxford have been significantly affected by the inability for potential customers (a term I use loosely) to obtain Financial funding to finance the course due to the GFC and the unwillingness of the banks to see pilot training as a sound investment. Petteford must have thought all his Christmas's had come at once when he learned that the Australian Government are able to fund 86k of un-means-tested funding to anyone with an oz passport. The one off FEE HELP fee has now been increased to 25% so a drawdown of 86k means an instand debt of $107,500 increasing each year with the CPI.

I call on Swinburne University to distance themselves from this debarcle in the name of maintaining your respected status in Australia. Oxford are using you and this is proved by the fact that the Jetstar Asia cadet Programme does not feature you at all because the singaporean applicants are not eligible for FEE HELP



More to Follow

The Kelpie

[Mstr Caution]

Jetstar launches cadet pilot scheme | Australian Aviation Magazine (http://australianaviation.com.au/2010/06/jetstar-launches-cadet-pilot-scheme/)

Not to mention the "anticipated" 15,200 other people BB thought would apply but didn't !

[chimbu warrior]

I see many parallels between this inquiry and the one regarding milk prices (not the least of which is that Senator X is pushing both).

There has been lots of rhetoric about the poor farmers (my first job was in the dairy industry, and I am very familiar with their plight), with many statements from concerned members of the public, but at the end of the day everybody (including senators I suspect) wants cheap milk. The fact that in future this may be imported from China or elsewhere, and lack the quality controls that we have here does not seem to stir a national revolt.

One interview I heard on the ABC yesterday suggested that Queensland dairy farmers should just withhold their product, but the interviewee responded that Victorian producers would quickly replace them as their is no unity amongst producers when faced with economic reality.

Very similar story.............

[alex.orourke]

Great call, MC!

It's mind-boggling there were 8,000-odd in the first place.

[breakfastburrito]

Kelpi, keep up the great work. I assume from Sen Milnes question, she has seen a copy of the NZ contract? If she hasn't, then it would be a good time to drop it in her lap, showing BB as being in contempt of Parliament.

[The Kelpie]

I understand the document in question is already in Senator X's briefcase!!

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[breakfastburrito]

Excellent...

[Popgun]

Lets hope there is enough time allocated at the next hearing for the truth to come out....

[The Kelpie]

Regarding the grounding of the JQ Cadets:

It's offically a problem with the dodgey NZ contract.

The checked to line cadets cannot operate in OZ until they have an OZ contract or are employed on the EBA.

Got this from a mate at JQ who looked up one of the cadets on rockape and saw that he was SOC.......

What the fark are these idiots doing at this sorry excuse for an airline???http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/censored.gifhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/censored.gifhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/censored.gif



Wait for it guys. I will get out my Crystal Ball and predict the Hansard for the next hearing:

SX: Mr Buchanan, You lied at the last hearing about the Cadet Wages, I have the proof here.

BB: No you are mistaken Senator, your document is out of date. Let me get to the facts. All our cadets are employed under either the JQ EBA or the Modern Pilots Award 2010.

More Spin!!



My Head hurts with all this spinning.

the Kelpie

[rodchucker]

If the cadets are as stated, maybe there is an issue re continuous disclosure by the Rat to ensure the market is fully informed.

Then again the toothless poodle ASIC has no great track record on enforcement like its brother regulators.

We can always hope.

[Dash1]

Thats a relief, no Jetstar cadet pilots operating in Australia as at 25th February. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[The Kelpie]

....Another fib

[Mr. Hat]

Big business taking advantage of young men and women with stars in their eyes and the various government bodies chose to turn a blind eye.

Of course there were a lot of applicants on face value it "looks" cool. Be an Airline pilot just pay the money.

Its like saying pay 200k and we will make you into a covergirl model. Do you reckon they might get few applicants?

When is someone at this inquiry going to say "stop playing stupid mate" or "cut the crap". Put my money on Heffernan for that one.

[The Kelpie]

Look, I do not normally do Character Assassination ;) but something has been niggling at me for a couple of days now and I have to get it off my chest. I almost was physically sick when I heard the evidence that Anthony Petteford (the arrogant, overly confident one) gave to the Senate Enquiry.

The Hansard does not do it justice but I have to say his performance was impressive and one of confidence. So much so Senator Heffernan made the point later in the hearing to another witness that he gave 'strong evidence'. You will see below that Senator X also acknowledged his experience [as a pilot] having flown both B757 and A320 and asked him a direct question relating to this which he answered in his usual casual but authoritative manner. The following is taken straight from Hansard:


Senator XENOPHON—We heard some evidence earlier, in terms of some training of
captains or pilots in simulators, that they are rated for the A320 but they have not flown the A320. They might have been trained up in Boeings. I think that there is quite a difference in the way that they operate. They still fly, but they are quite different.

Mr Petteford—I have flown both types. I have flown a traditional Boeing and I have flown
a—

Senator XENOPHON—I noticed your experience.

Mr Petteford—I would say, no, an airliner these days is laid out in pretty standard chunks.
You have your systems overhead, your auto pilot, flight control panel, primary flight instruments and communications. The difference between the Boeing and the Airbus is that the Airbus’s stick is there. The 777 is a fly-by-wire aeroplane. You can pretty much go from one to the other.

Senator XENOPHON—So you are not concerned that a trainer has not flown that aircraft
type when they are training cadets?

Mr Petteford—No. Provided they are experienced airline pilots, then I am not concerned
about that.


Bearing in mind that this guy could sell ice to eskimo's, you guys are all thinking at this point that his opinion is well valued as a person who has spent many years on the flight deck and is sufficiently qualified to make such statements.

Well, would it surprise you to know that you would all be wrong?

Mr Petteford, as he stated is endorsed on the A320 and B757, this is true. However, his tenure on the flight deck of the A320 lasted less than a year and was the result of a short sabbatical probably arranged through the Oxford " old boys network ". His time on type probably only extends to a few hundred hours. As for his qualification on the B757 this was done much later 'just for the fun of it' and he has never flown the B757 in line operations.

The hours for the ATPL he credits himself with were gained through flight instructing over a 3 year period commencing on 1983. All his jobs since then have been management and training positions mainly in IT but more recently as we all know as MD with Oxford Aviation.

If you were an eskimo, would you buy ice from him?

Do you think this was the persona and impression he gave the Senators?

I guess your answer may be no to both questions.

So why are we listening to this guys sales patter when we are looking for flying training?

I hope the Senate do not put too much weight to his evidence

I will leave this with you.

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[neville_nobody]

Here in lies the problem of these Senate hearings in that those running it don't know the right questions to ask.

The difference between the Boeing and the Airbus is that the Airbus’s stick is there.

The straight up response to this "Oh so there is no difference between the Airbus and Boeing flight control laws?" or something similar. Then move on to show that infact there is a huge difference between the two types.

Unfortunately when those asking the questions don't really know what the hell they're talking about it makes it hard to decipher what is being said.

[4dogs]

Kelpie,

He lost me several times, but this particularly got me:
Senator XENOPHON—In terms of the costs involved for an MPL licence compared with a traditional licence, is it much cheaper?
Mr Petteford—No, it is pretty similar. By the time you take all of the phases together and the aircraft base training, the 12 circuits—bearing in mind in Australia there is no requirement for base aircraft, where the MPL does require 12—it is about the same.

My understanding of the Alteon MPL Beta Trial here in Oz ballooned out to about 400 hours per head to meet the standard and the sim cost alone was probably more than a straight CPL... beware charlatans and snake oil salesmen!!!!!!!!!!

If I was negotiating, I guess he would be happy to sign up to a fixed price contract? :E :E :E

Oh, and on the "You can pretty much go from one to the other" comment, there will be some further illumination of the reality for the good senators :cool:

Stay Alive,

[The Kelpie]

4dogs

It did blow out to those hours for various reasons during the China Eastern Pilot scheme and the results are still being monitored although some say the results are useless now in terms of assessing future effectiveness because the hours blew out so much. You would need to monitor cadets achieving the standard in the designed hours to have a effective evaluation.

As to the costs, it is about the same cost - to the cadet!!! Ask him about his costs and he should tell you it does not cost him as much to run. Sure he has significant capital expenditure in simulators and the cost of a High capacity RPT aircraft (as far as i am aware only aircraft in world eligible to be used for mpl are 737, A320 and Q400) to do 12 circuits but his variable costs such as fuel, maintenance and of course the aircraft fleet itself are much reduced as is his business risk of poor unflyable weather etc. Capital costs can be written off against student numbers, the more students through the door the cheaper the cost per hour, eventually the utopia being that the sim is paid for through sufficient student numbers or depreciated in the accounts against tax and much of the course fees paid by students will be profit. Do you think training prices will decrease over time to reflect these efficiencies?

Let's try and put some scale to this. Swinburne stated it had a total of 256 enrolled in training at the present time, it does not have it's own flight training facilities so lets assume it sub-contracts this element of the course to Oxford. So I will not include Oxford's own students to even things up. I assume that this number is pretty constant and that the course lasts 18 months. At $200k a pop (on the basis that swinburne makes its money from commonwealth grants etc.) that is $34million worth of business per year. Now i know they have running costs such as staff costs etc. But i would imagine it is more than enough to cover the purchase of an a320 and a few sims and write them off over a few years!!

So you see this is all about profit and the bottom line.

I learnt this lesson from an old company chairman, a man I consider as perhaps one of the most influential characters in my working life. Early in my career he asked me "what do Cadburys make". With a puzzled look I replied "chocolate!". To which he barked back at me " no son chocolate is the byproduct, they make f***ing money and that is what we are here to make". He went on to teach me the art of 'milking people with warm hands' as he put it.

As you allude to in your last post the devil is in the detail. As far as I am aware there is no such thing as a fixed price contract for 'privately funded' aviation training in Australia. I qualify this as I know of commercial arrangements between two organizations, an airline and a FTO that spit cadet out for a fixed price lump sum per cadet.

Do you think the JQ Cadet course is fixed price? Well it is not, they have a clause in the Oxford training agreement (yes I know another bloody contract) that has words to the effect of price based on minimum hours to achieve the required standard and any additional hours required must be paid as extra by the cadet etc. Etc. To be fair to Oxford, most flight training organizations have this. In anycase JQ have this well covered in their funding agreement where it allows them to unilaterally increase the cadet training costs without requiring approval from the cadet. A license to print money, effectively by signing this the cadet has written a blank cheque without realizing. But that is GEN Y all over!!

So now you see how FTOs manage the business risk of allowing anyone willing to walk through the door and part with lots and lots of their hard earned and teach them to fly. In the same way they are able to manage the risk of poor instruction from their Instructors, simple blame it on the student and make 'em pay. This is not business!!

Businesses, first class ones anyway, have confidence in the abilities in their staff to deliver a product or service so much so that they are able to offer a fixed price.

4dogs, as I said in my last post Petteford is a salesman and he tried peddling his goods to the Senators thinking that they were gen Ys with shiner white jet syndrome. Hopefully they were not thinking of buying!

As I have posted previously this is one such example of where the evidence has been tainted to protect and safeguard the commercial interests of the companies they represent rather than focus on what is important which is the safe skies of Australia.

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[The Kelpie]

The latest on todays events


Cadets grounded as Qantas strategy questioned by Senate

by Ben Sandilands (http://www.crikey.com.au/author/bensandilands/)
The Qantas strategy to shift jobs and tax obligations offshore through Jetstar to Singapore and New Zealand is in disarray today after the low-cost subsidiary was forced to suspend flying by at least four of its cadet pilots on Australian services at New Zealand pay rates.
Jetstar took the cadets off salary but left them on allowances “pending operational clearance” after evidence its group CEO Bruce Buchanan gave to a public hearing of the Senate inquiry into pilot training and airline safety standards caused anger among pilots and direct complaints about its accuracy to members of the Rural Affairs and Transport Committee.
Buchanan has been recalled by the Senate inquiry to a hearing next Friday, March 18.
Under the Jetstar cadet scheme young pilots with prior flying experience entered into a contract with Jetstar New Zealand to be trained to take pilot positions with Jetstar, including flights in Australia. The savings to Jetstar, and the losses of revenue to the ATO, of Jetstar pilots flying in Australia under New Zealand labor conditions are substantial.
The Australian and International Pilots Association, which is in dispute with Qantas over its strategy of shifting pilot jobs overseas onto New Zealand and Singaporean terms and conditions, is understood to have recruited at least one of the cadets into its organisation on the grounds of industrial protection.
That cadet, a resident of Australia who has never taken up residence in New Zealand, was among four Jetstar cadets who have confirmed they were flown to New Zealand by Jetstar for the purpose of opening a New Zealand bank account.
They are paid in New Zealand dollars at a large discount over similarly experienced Australian Jetstar pilots, for flying duties that have been exclusively performed in Australia.
After their three-day bank account opening exercise in New Zealand, which included “observing” Jetstar operations on several intra-New Zealand flights, the cadets at their own expense undertook seven weeks of endorsement training for Airbus jets in the UK, and then carried out line training with Jetstar in Australia.
The cadets have been suspended from flying duties and are receiving allowances but no salary “pending operational clearance”. It isn’t clear whether that clearance to fly in Australia will come from CASA or the New Zealand Civil Aviation Authority.
Jetconnect is a mock Qantas full service operation that flies trans-Tasman routes in Qantas livery with staff paid under New Zealand terms and conditions for work that used to performed by real Qantas employees.
Qantas has also transferred two Australian-registered, Jetstar-painted Airbus A330 jets to Singapore to perform Melbourne-Singapore and Auckland-Singapore flights under Singaporean labour contracts as a curtain raiser to the basing of a larger fleet of jets, including Boeing 787s, at Changi Airport.

[Popgun]

Kelpie - As usual you are right on the money...Bravo! Many thanks for all your efforts in rallying this cause and keeping us in the loop. :ok:

I hope the Senators have all the evidence they need to refute these management lies and issue some sensible rulings to sort this mess...

[The Kelpie]

I wonder if we will get a statement from AIPA today?

I thought AFAP was the union representing Jetstar Pilots??
- perhaps a statement from them?

Even better would be a joint one - shoulder to shoulder on the issue!!!

a couple of questions:

Where the Cadets on their visit to New Zealand classified as employees during the visit. If not, what place did they have on the Jumpseat??

Did they get paid for this visit or was this just another freebie they were expected to do?

I have posted on another thread about the minimum wage act in New Zealand and how you are entitled to be paid for all hours worked, and I think it is time someone looked into that too instead of dismissing it.

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[The Kelpie]

Stop Press

Jetstar hissy fit reveals two tier pay scale for new pilots (http://go.redirectingat.com/?id=42X487496&xs=1&url=http%3A%2F%2Fblogs.crikey.com.au%2Fplanetalking%2F2011%2 F03%2F10%2Fjetstar-hissy-fit-reveals-two-tier-pay-scale-for-new-pilots%2F&sref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pprune.org%2Fdg-p-reporting-points%2F444983-jetstar-cadets-grounded-4.html%23post6296730)

March 10, 2011 – 4:52 pm, by Ben Sandilands (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/author/bensandilands/)


In an angry response to the earlier posting (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2011/03/10/jetstar-sham-pilot-cadet-scheme-in-turmoil/) on Plane Talking Jetstar has revealed plans to put new pilots onto a two tier pay scheme by transferring graduates from its sham New Zealand cadet scheme onto an Australian ‘modern award’.
The Australian and International Pilots Association says this would mean a lower pay scale for pilots doing the same work , as their is already a current EBA covering Jetstar pilots under which it would expect the carrier to employ new hires.

This is what Jetstar says about our earlier report. Jetstar wishes to respond to the posting dated 10 March relating to our Cadet Pilot Program.

Jetstar stands by its Cadet Pilot Program, which was launched last year, and rejects recent criticism with respect to the employment arrangements of our Cadet Pilots.

Today’s Plane Talking posting takes a grossly sensationalised position.

Jetstar is currently finalising and is merely days away from offering Australian (Commonwealth) contracts for its Cadet Pilots that is in line with the modern award.

For the record, three Jetstar Cadet Pilots, each out of our training program based in New Zealand, have just concluded their line training with Jetstar and have been ‘checked to line’ by our airline, the background and basis for the Plane Talking posting. All three took place in the past six days.

The three are temporarily unable to fly within Australia until the finalisation of an Australian (Commonwealth) employment contract. The matter is likely to be rectified within days, due to a delay in finalising the workplace arrangement.

The putting in place of an Australian employment mechanism – and delays in this process – is the sole reason for this short term delay experienced by our three Cadet Pilots from re-entering our operations.

Contrary to what was stated in the posting, these Cadet Pilots are receiving full remuneration at this time. They will not be out of pocket whilst waiting for their Australian workplace contract to be finalised.

Jetstar will employ these Pilot Cadets under an Australian (Commonwealth) contract that is in line with the modern award.

We wish to make it clear it has always been our intention to have an Australian employment agreement in place for our Cadet Pilots.

Further with respect to clearance for Jetstar Cadet Pilots to fly, this is the responsibility of Jetstar’s Check and Training organisation within the airline (through delegation).

All of our Cadet Pilots are on existing Individual Employment Agreements (IEA) in New Zealand.
But according to the testimony given by Bruce Buchanan, the Jetstar Group CEO, to the Senate inquiry into pilot training and airline safety on February 25, Jetstar’s intention with the NZ scheme was to employ the graduates on a New Zealand award under which he claimed they could earn up to $NZ67,000 a year.
This now appears to have been replaced in haste with a plan to employ the pilots in Australia, a move which will however mean that those earnings will be taxed in Australia and attract a superannuation levy.
The Jetstar response continues to insist that this was a New Zealand training scheme, even though the only connection the cadets had with New Zealand was a New Zealand bank account and tax file number that they were flown to New Zealand by Jetstar in order to open and acquire.
One could easily come to the ‘sensational’ conclusion, as the pilots association has, that this is a sham.

Shortly before Jetstar reacted to the story the pilots association released this reaction to the grounding of the cadets. QANTAS MUST COME CLEAN ON CADET SCAM

There are disturbing revelations that the Qantas Group has set up another sham employment scheme to evade the Australian industrial relations system and pay cadet pilots in New Zealand dollars.

A group of Jetstar cadets face an uncertain future after being stood down without pay, pending ‘operational clearance’.

Despite being Australian citizens, when they were first recruited the cadets were asked by the Qantas Group to go to New Zealand for three days of observational flying and to open New Zealand bank accounts.

They then did their endorsement training in the UK and their line training in Australia whilst being paid in New Zealand dollars.

Now that they have completed their training, the cadets have been left to their own devices on a basic living allowance and are awaiting an Australian contract based in Australia.

“The Qantas Group must give these young cadets some assurance of what is in store for them and quickly,” Australian and International Pilots Association Vice President Captain Richard Woodward said.

“The company needs to show faith and reassure these cadets that it intends to stand by the commitments it made.”

“We want them up in the air again as soon as possible, on full pay, under the Australian Jetstar Pilots Agreement.”

Captain Woodward said it was also important the company clarify exactly why it was basing its cadet training in New Zealand yet clearly operating it out of the UK and Australia.

“It’s an absolute disgrace that a company can consistently market itself as the national carrier and then go out of its way to avoid Australian workplace laws by placing its Australian cadets on New Zealand contracts and paying them in New Zealand dollars.

“That includes basic entitlements Australian workers take for granted, like the 9% compulsory superannuation contribution,” Captain Woodward said.

The news about Jetstar training its cadets in New Zealand is only the latest example of the company trying to undercut Australian pilots and avoid Australian workplace and superannuation laws.

Last year Qantas gave its New Zealand subsidiary, Jetconnect responsibility for the majority of all trans-Tasman flights and Mr Paul Daff, Head of Jetconnect, has confirmed in recent court proceedings that an additional 28 flights per week will be transferred from Qantas to Jetconnect in May 2011.

Employment conditions at Jetconnect are inferior, with pilots earning almost one-third less than they do at Qantas.


WTF is an Australian (Commonwealth) Contract??

[The Kelpie]

Thick and Fast today!


Pilot fatigued during mid-air stall scare

By Myles Morgan
Posted 1 hour 30 minutes ago
http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/201011/r667428_4828570.jpg (http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/201011/r667428_4828590.jpg)A Qantas jet had about 70 people on board when the incident happened. [File image]. (Reuters: Tim Wimborne, file photo)


Map: Alice Springs 0870 (http://www.abc.net.au/news/maps/map.htm?lat=-23.6989&long=133.8829&caption=Alice Springs 0870)

A report by the Australian Transport Safety Bureau has found the pilot of a Qantas Boeing 717-200 was stressed and fatigued when the plane came close to stalling as it prepared to land in Alice Springs in 2008.
The ATSB says the jet had about 70 people on board when it approached the airport "higher, faster and closer" than was suitable for the landing.
A "stick-shaker" warning alerted the flight crew that the aircraft was close to aerodynamically stalling.
The jet landed without incident after the flight crew corrected the approach.
The ATSB report notes the pilot was stressed at the time of the incident.
"The [pilot] recalled that, during the incident flight, he had been thinking about those stresses and believed that this might have contributed to the event by distracting him prior to descent."
The report says the pilot had also been struggling to get enough sleep in the days prior to the incident.
"The [pilot] reported staying at temporary accommodation and sleeping on average for only four hours a night.
"The [pilot] considered that fatigue was a factor during the approach into Alice Springs, in that it affected [their] clarity of judgement and concentration."

[Skynews]

That guy was under a lot of pressure and shame on the person who was primarily responsible for putting him under that pressure.

Unfortunately that same person portrays themselves on this site as a "pilots friend". He knows who he is.

[breakfastburrito]

Kelpie, my understanding is that unless on an EBA or some transitional arrangement (already employed prior to the FWA on an AWA), then the "default" minimum T&C's is the relevant award, the Air Pilots Award 2010 (http://www.fwa.gov.au/documents/modern_awards/award/ma000046/default.htm). I'm sure someone will correct me if I am wrong.

The interesting thing about this award is there is no "Junior First Officer" classification. So putting them on this award will actually be a higher rate than a JFO on the EBA.

[The Kelpie]

BB

Yes I know that!!!

I wonder what they have been earning over the last few months whilst undertaking line training in Australia?? BACKPAY!!!

It will be interesting now they have made statement that the Contract will be based on the Award.

As for the Contempt issue, that is still live as far as I am concerned.

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[The Kelpie]

"The [pilot] recalled that, during the incident flight, he had been thinking about those stresses and believed that this might have contributed to the event by distracting him prior to descent."
The report says the pilot had also been struggling to get enough sleep in the days prior to the incident.
"The [pilot] reported staying at temporary accommodation and sleeping on average for only four hours a night.
"The [pilot] considered that fatigue was a factor during the approach into Alice Springs, in that it affected [their] clarity of judgement and concentration."

Sounds very like the fatigue situation in the US and particularly I note the similarities between how this pilot spent his time before the flight and how the pilots tragically killed in the Colgan Air accident did. Unfortunately for the American flight the outcome was so different. Guys we are not far away. Not far away at all.

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[rmcdonal]

The ATSB says the jet had about 70 people on board when it approached the airport "higher, faster and closer" than was suitable for the landing.
A "stick-shaker" warning alerted the flight crew that the aircraft was close to aerodynamically stalling.

How did they pull of being to fast and to slow at the same time?
I am assuming they weren't in some high G load scenario as this is an RPT flight.

[Tankengine]

I didn't know Qantas ever flew the 717.:ugh:

[Skynews]

It says a Qantas Boeing 717, thats accurate, however flown by Cobham pilots.

[Tankengine]

My point exactly!
:hmm:

I think you will find it is a QantasLINK aircraft.:rolleyes:

[scrubba]

skynews,

that's an interesting statement for those who know the facts. care to elaborate?

[RENURPP]

If you know the facts then I don't need o elaborate.
In any case the people concerned are aware, and the problem was terminated.

[goose1]

Qantas has also transferred two Australian-registered, Jetstar-painted Airbus A330 jets to Singapore to perform Melbourne-Singapore and Auckland-Singapore flights under Singaporean labour contracts as a curtain raiser to the basing of a larger fleet of jets, including Boeing 787s, at Changi Airport.

It has come to my attention that as a result of the 2 330's going to SIN, the 330 base in SYD has been reduced, the crews will be retrained on the 320 or relocated.

[Capt_SNAFU]

looks like skywest are gearing up for a cadet scheme. I must admit I missed this when first announced.

Cadet Pilot Program (http://www.skywest.com.au/Careers/Cadet.aspx)

[KRUSTY 34]

Unless I'm mistaken, a banner is all that's on the site at the moment. Probabaly best to keep it that way for at least the time being! :E

[Mr. Hat]

They're all scrambling to get as many dollars..err sorry cadets thru the system before Xenophon pull the shutter down on this well worn industry scam. I'd hate to be the last cadet thru before that happens! Would be a pretty nervous situation to be in.

[rodchucker]

Maybe someone should suggest to the honourable senators that it may be appropriate to invite the Chair of the Rat Board to the next hearing and ask him if he knows what his management are doing.

Had an experience in Singapore a few years ago in another industry where CEO could not explain what was going on to govt reps, so they didn't muck around and just "invited" whole board to explain.Remember up there you dont say NO.

Maybe it is about time we took some lessons.

[Mstr Caution]

Surely the board would know of AJ's plans.

Didn't AJ present a plan, "going forward" for the Qantas business during the pre selection process for the role of CEO.

[Popgun]

Please let there be enough time allocated to this hearing next week for a public skewering of this deceitful, shameful bunch. It is past time to lance the boil...the festering has gone on too long.

At the very least the public deserves to see some truth come out. Go the Xeno!!! Go the Kelpie!!! Go AIPA!!!

Many thanks to everyone, both in front of, and behind the scenes who has contributed and continues to do so. :D Its inspiring to see our industry rally.

PG

PS. Go Ben Sandilands!!!

[ThePaperBoy]

The momentum is good, but more people need to know the facts. The general public is more concerned about $1 milk at the moment and the senate enquiry surrounding it.

If you have access to Face book or Twi tter post links to articles such as Crikey and (to a lesser extent) The Australian. Others in the industry and the general public need to become aware of what is really happening.

Don't underestimate the power of social networking while the likes of AIPA attempt to handle the mass media. It's important as individuals we don't dilute the message, but there is not harm in spreading blogs such as those recently written by Ben Sandilands.

PB

[The Kelpie]

Let's give the senators a shot at this first!

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[terry ball]

Everyone should take from the kelpie's lead.

As far as things go in the industry (conditions/companies flaunting IR laws/sacking those who speak out) lets hope we've seen the end of this).

Congratulations Ben Sandilands. You have the written skills and investigative mind/sources to get this momentum moving. Crikey is also not mainstream media (and therefore not bound by advertising/corporate restrictions that other media outlets are). I don't think you'll find this story on Sunrise! etc..

Combined with the Senate enquiry - I think we are heading the right way.

[rodchucker]

MC,

My point exactly.

We need to get all the players into a forum where there is accountability.

If the Board did know, then they should be held accountable and if they did not know, then that raises other issues.

Assuming those with greater knowledge than I are correct and the Senate was provided with "erroneous" information imagine the first question from Senators X and H.

I could not imagine that any director would be at all comfortable with being put in this position and its about time they were. They installed this management and have legal responsibility for the performance of the company, so why shouldn't they be brought into the fray?

AIPA cannot do that but Senators can and it is long overdue from the history of this company.

[BeerMan]

When's the next hearing? Want to make sure I view it this time!

[Soar2384]

It's on the 18th of March but I don't know a time.

[Stretch06]

Also how does one view? is it ABC TV or boardcast on a live feed on the net?

And Kelpie, we all owe you a beer or two.....:ok:

[The Kelpie]

Stretch

It is broadcast on the APH website. You can usually go for either an audio or a video feed.

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[gruntyfen]

Bob Schieffer talking about lying, spinning and coverups. His message seems very relevant.

YouTube - Bob Schieffer Sounds Off about Lying Politicians. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Gd2LBCs0bg&feature=player_detailpage)

[The lens]

Buried on pages 16 to 17 of Hansard on 25/02/1011, Qantas CEO AJ states, of his own choice, and under no apparent duress:

"We only pick the highest standards of maintenance facilities offshore. They are the
Lufthansas of this world; they are the Rolls-Royces of this world; they are the top facilities."

In a public forum, what else would he say? But did he have to?

He could have stood down from the day's proceedings with credibility intact and when appearing at a later hearing, would have already been properly briefed by managers experienced in their portfolio.

His comments have got me hot and bothered. "Not happy, AJ!"

(Thanks to Steeve Creedy from the Australian for highlighting this on the 11/03/2011)

[Up-into-the-air]

The following link gives access to the feeds:

Parliament of Australia: Live Broadcasting (http://webcast.aph.gov.au/livebroadcasting/annualview.aspx?eventtype=Senate&eventdate=18/03/2011)

[The Kelpie]

The Lens

Be careful how you read the evidence, this is just another example of spin. AJ and BB gave evidence that is full of it!

Alan does not say that he uses Lufthansa and Rolls Royce for maintenance, although the untrained ear would have lead naturally to that conclusion. He simply uses those well respected worldwide brands to craftily springboard a personal view as to the type of organization he believes they do use.

It would maybe not come as a great surprise that over the last couple of days I have gone through the Hansards for the three hearings that have taken place so far and I have a word document that has 34 pages of items that fit into the categories of either inaccurate, misleading (spin) or interesting. All in my opinion of course based on evidence I have seen.

I am the James Bond of the investigative world. Of course that is only my opinion and probably not true but if I said it you would immediately associate the two and liken my investigative skills to a well known 'brand' and give me credibility even if you have never met me before.

That is how brands work.

Take Oxford Aviation Academy, a company which IMHO is no better or worse than the next guy, it is just that they develop the brand using a smooth talking salesman and glossy brochures under the lure of a public set of employment statistics that are highly questionable.

The key selling point for OAA is the relationship they have with airlines, this has two benefits.

Firstly, Petteford visits the airline and tells the decision makers that they should allow him to run his cadetship because they were picked by other airlines given their skill and expertise in the area of flight training particularly towards the multi crew airline.and leverages credibility by using brands such as British Airways, Easyjet, Ryanair, Qantas etc.
Secondly it lures aspiring pilots in because it has a track record in the United Kingdom of graduates being placed with airlines....eventually.lets for a minute just look at what I have just said

.....picked by other airlines given their skill and expertise in the area of flight training

A mentor once told me that a business does not do business with another business it is the people that do business with the people, a philosophy that has over my career proved time and time again to be true. This is no exception.

The companies that Petteford uses as his springboard all have decision makers that are part of, or are connected to the Oxford 'Old Boys Network'. Willie Walsh, CEO of British Airways is an ex Oxford Cadet (no wonder he sanctioned such a glowing reference for Petteford to include in his submission (read: sales pitch document) to the Senate Inquiry despite BA not employing cadets themselves for the last 10 years. As we all know Alan Joyce, used to work at Aer Lingus where he met and became friends with Willie Walsh, well you know how friends, both described as Irish Businessmen talk!!

I know, I know that is all history but it does give an insight as to how a track record is established.

Whilst reading through the Hansard I was surprised to find Tiger Airways Director of Flight Operations, Tim Berry advocating the recruitment and use of cadets despite Tiger Airways not having a desire to do so. In fact his evidence was so strong I almost felt that he was almost trying to sell something to the Senators, something he has to date not been able to do with his own Board. Perhaps when Cadet schemes are endorsed by the Senate and other airlines accept this is the way to go and that this becomes the norm perhaps Tiger will fall into line. I was particularly interested in the testimony of what he considered were the essential features to the successful use of cadets and drew many similarities with the evidence, both written and verbal given by Oxford Aviation. Petteford must have been there for 'a chat'!!

Wait a minute. Petteford did not necessarily need to do so, he could just ring his old mate Tim up with whom he was in the same pilot group when Petteford did his short sabbatical on the A320 with British Midland in 2001 that was organised through the Oxford 'old boys network'. Friends helping out friends!!

Petteford and Oxford Aviation have a lot to lose if the Senate raise the hours required to enter a Flight Deck and believe me when I say he is calling in favours from 'friends, or friends of friends' to provide evidence to get cadetships across the line. The survival of his business model relies on it. The principle being that if enough people tell the Senator the same thing it must be true!!!

I want to move now onto the MPL Licence, a process that Petteford seems really enthusiastic about for some reason. MPL requires that the Cadet is linked and guaranteed a job with the airline for it to work. There are a number of commercial difficulties which would suggest this model will never float in Australia and I will for illustrative purposes apply it to the LCC Model. Incidently these would not even be considered by CASA during the approval of a syllabus as it is outside their remit.

The MPL is a licence within itself. It does not allow you to fly any other aircraft other than the one you were trained on with the company you were linked with (currently restricted to B737, A320 and Q400). Good for retention rates I would say but buggers you when it comes to pay negotiations!
Even if transferability between employers was facilitated it would need to be accepted across the industry, in all airlines to be effective otherwise there would be further restriction to the number of employers you could possibly work for.
The LCC model has a track record for closing bases 'to meet the needs of the business'. If your base was closed you have no choice but to move interstate with the company (if that is an option) as your licence is not valid anywhere else or take redundancy - I think this is unreasonable. We 'work to live' in Australia and not the other way around. The effect this has on families, relationships and on children's schooling to name a few is immense and is beyond the call of duty for any employer.
If made redundant for the reasons stated above or in the event of a downturn skills are not readily transferrable. I estimate that to convert a MPL to a CPL it would involve at least a further $50,000 of training and at least 6 months of your life without income. At a time of redundancy this amount of spare cash is almost never there. This would please Petteford as it is another business opportunity!!!There are of course the safety aspects as well as the issue of relevance of training if you wanted, or needed to revert to single pilot operations. Petteford has already told us that the cost of a MPL is similar to the traditional route but in the end you get a licence that greatly restricts your ability to be flexible in the difficult times.

Given the history of the Aviation industry the MPL is a commercial ticking timebomb. It is just not the product for the Australian aviation industry. Perhaps Sntr Heffernan was not far off when he called Joyce an 'old irish bombmaker'!!

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[33 Disengage]

You said - We only pick the highest standards of maintenance facilities offshoreBefore Mr Dixon and yourself took the knife to Qantas Engineering it was classed as a "highest standards of maintenance facility". The cost of going offshore was not required.

Why did you, and why do you continue to destroy Qantas' engineering facilities? Why have you moved jobs out of Australia?

[magicbox]

Is it true a document apparently released by Jetstar in the last week or so stating that cadets are to be based in MEL/SYD/BNE/Goldy :confused:

If so that would mean it was released just after bruce stated at the enquiry that cadets would not be flying in Aus :ugh:

[Artificial Horizon]

Magicbox,

It is true, the document in question came out last week. :ugh:

[The Kelpie]

I have posted on the Cadets Grounded thread about this.

[The Kelpie]

I get a bit confused with the Qantas business structure.

Is it just me or is the Qantas Group (Holding company rather than the collection of subsidiaries) acting like a private version of CASA with its 'Franchises'? It seems that they are not interested in the day to day responsibility for operations, only for policing it in the sense that the standards are requirements within the 'franchise' or brand agreement.

Alan Joyce told the Senate Inquiry that Qantas (not sure which part) only has a minority shareholding in operations such as Jetstar Asia and Jetstar Vietnam, he said

we do not have the same responsibility for those entities, because we are a minority shareholder; we have a brand responsibility for them, Other shareholders have the majority of those entities. We have a brand responsibility to ensure that safety meets the standards applying to the brand.

and went on further to say

Under the brand agreements we do [have the authority to enforce the same standards that would apply to Qantas and Jetstar Australia]. We have the ability to withdraw the brand if we are not comfortable with the standards applying to those entities.


when questioned further by the astute and Switched on Senator X Joyce replied

It gives us very strong influence over the standards, and allows us to make sure that we are very comfortable. We would not have the brand on these entities if we were not comfortable that these met the high safety standards.

On top of the analogy to being a regulator, Does that mean Qantas 're-sells' the benefits and concessions granted to the Qantas Group by CASA, IASC etc. to any Tom, Dick or Harry that is willing to enter into a franchise agreement with them?

Sounds like the Qantas Group is purely an entity to sell, monitor and enforce brand agreements rather than controlling anything on a day to day. I see a fundamental problem here in terms of safety!!

Take the latest reports of expansion into the Japanese market. This would allow Qantas to re-sell, without further reference to CASA or the IASC the right for a Japanese operator to operate domestically under the guise of Jetstar international tag flights.

Think the Senator is onto this in any case.

The Kelpie

[The lens]

The Kelpie,

Thanks, and apologies also to everyone for the slight diversion to the debate.

Terms of Ref. item (j) 'any other related matters' could be an inquiry in its own right.

[The Kelpie]

This was a previous post I made which the mods moved to the GA Area. I asked for it to be moved back but no assistance. In relation to the way the Senate Inquiry seems to be developing I thought it was worth asking the question again in the hope that a driver or CC could provide an answer.

Just reading about Crew Travel Authority on the Immigration Website. It says that "Crew operating commercial flights into Australia should be registered with a Crew Travel Authority (CTA). It raised a question for me.

On a Jetstar flight from an overseas base to Melbourne would overseas flight crew / Cabin crew be required to go through Customs and Immigration at Darwin (or the first port of entry) before proceeding to Melbourne being their first port of call in Australia?

If the answer is yes - Would that mean that if the same overseas crew flew the 'Tag Flight' from Darwin to Melbourne they would be undertaking work for the purposes of immigration bearing in mind that for immigration purposes - “Work” is defined as “an activity that, in Australia, normally attracts remuneration.” ?

If they are undertaking "work" what provision of the Crew Travel Authority by which they legally enter Australia without a visa allows such work?

If the CTA does allow such "work" then why should the overseas crew not be entitled to the same pay and conditions as an Australian with work rights??

If Overseas crew are to be paid the same as Australian Crew, What is the point of off-shoring jobs?

.........Just a thought


Note the wording 'into Australia' and not 'within Australia'.

Maybe why they were offerring Aussie pilots the opportunity to move over there as they have an automatic right to work in Australia. You guys hold the key as other foreign nationals will not be allowed to fly the tag flight is my understanding. If I am correct you are probably the most important asset the company has at the moment as you are the key to enabling them to switch a mel - drw - sg - dw - mel flight into a sg - dw - mel - dw - sg one.

Although the IASC allows these flights to take place from an operational point of view I am sure that the assumption is that all other aspects of law are satisfied, including the Migration Regulations.

There is a world of difference between a London based crew flying from London and Singapore to a destination that is it's one and only port of call in Australia to flying from an overseas into an australian port of entry and then taking off again after boarding further passengers to another Australian airport.

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[RENURPP]

All inbound passengers and crew go through immigration and customs, proceed to the domestic terminal prior boarding a flight with domestic passengers who do not go through immigration. I.e. The sectors from Darwin o melbourne/cairns etc are totally domestic they arrive at domestic terminals

[breakfastburrito]

Kelpie, this is a classic attempt at labour arbitrage, with a twist. Normally this would involve offshoring the work to another country where that same skills exist, but at lower cost. So, here's the twist, excess pilots don't exist in Asia! So, what they are doing is offshoring the job to a cheaper place of doing business, and in effect forcing the skill to go offshore, to work back in the host country (Australia) - offshore/inshore. Look very carefully at the NZ cadet base, ticks all the box for this game plan. All of this is simply an end-run around Australian migration/labour/superannuation/tax law.

The central question for the Federal government, is, if Qantas succeed, how many other companies will do the same? What would the anticipated tax revenue hit be. WA FIFO mining would be a prime candidate for this style of operation (Karratha upgraded to handle a B767, Asia anyone). Imagine if all those high paying mining jobs were offshored/inshored. The miners would ask for the same "cash in hand", but without the Federal government receiving the tax.

[The Kelpie]

I thought so!!!

trust me when I say that 'the world is watching this one'!

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[Keg]

It's certainly clear that what J* are doing here is different to what occasionally used to occur on the QF long haul fleets. We used to regularly fly QF10 SIN-MEL-SYD and clear customs in Sydney. It's important that J* management isn't able to imply that this is what they're doing when they're flying JQ62 SIN-DRW and then changing to JQ 'whatever' from DRW to [insert other Australian city here]. They're not 'continuing the service' to another city and then clearing customs in that city. They're operating a domestic service.

The exception would be if they still do the QF62 SIN-DRW-CNS. That they can have if it's the same flight number and operated as an international service with crew clearing customs in CNS.

[The Kelpie]

Keg

The issue is not about clearing customs, the important point is that on your QF10 flight all the crew should have been Australian Citizens or have the right to work in Australia. It is an immigration issue.

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[Sarcs]

Although J* and the Rat are the two highest profile operators featuring in this inquiry, remember there are a lot of other operators out there that have their own unscrupulous spin doctors and bean counters that are helping to poison the industry.:ugh:

Why is this happening?:= Because the regulator had this grand idea that the industry should be self-regulated!!:mad: So now certain operators believe that as long as all the boxes are ticked, they now have a licence to do what ever they want!!:E

Also due to the good Senator Cameron, the terms of reference have now been expanded to include maintenance So another hole in the swiss cheese is about to be exposed:ok:.

Still waiting for the bang!!:ooh:

Sarcs

ps By the way, word is that the 'in camera' hearings are on prior to the public hearings this Friday!!!

[The Kelpie]

By the way, word is that the 'in camera' hearings are on prior to the public hearings this Friday!!!

Affirm!!!

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[The Kelpie]

A copy of a post I made on another thread but relevant to the Inquiry so posted here for ease of reference to those who are interested.


McGrath

WRT the Sharp cadetship the evidence given by the Sobey's was nothing but a gripe about not qualifying for being able to offer FEE-HELP. Sharp disclosed their turnover at apprx. $16m, I wonder how much of that is generated by Gen Y's signing up for their cadetship?

They want the ability to offer FEE-HELP assistance to provide a route for them to sell dreams to young kids and get access turnover funded by the public coffers.

My Grandad once told me 'Where there is money, there is someone trying to get their hands on it!!'. This is very true. The art of becoming rich is identifying a source of money and then devising a method by which to channel it in your direction.

Mr Sobey went on to tell the Senate Inquiry that the cost of their cadetship cost $100,000 and Mrs Sobey testified that there was a job at the end of it.

My sources tell me that there is a job at the end of it, so no lies there but what was misleading is that Mrs Sobey did not disclose that the job offerred at the end of the cadetship was one of ground ops / baggage handler with the carrot of getting a shot in the RHS of a Metro.

I think the Senator assumed that the job at the end was a job that reflected the $100,000 of training that the individuals had just paid for!!!

Just another example of where evidence of individuals has been tainted to reflect the commercial interests of the organisations they represent.

As I have said, cadet Programs are marketing gimmicks to keep the cash flow, turnover and profits up. I hope the Senators see through this smoke and mirror act and realise the Pilot Training and what goes on is one of Australian Aviation's dirty little secrets. Especially when it is paid up front, something that those who have been stung will know too well. You just get buggered about.



More to Follow

The Kelpie

[The Kelpie]

Good discussion taking place of the Do we need Cadet schemes thread

[Low and Fast]

Thanks Kelpie

By the way, I think B Sandilands might have a job for you after this is all done & dusted.

Ps Keep up the sensational work

[Wagner Principal]

After the Senate inquiry what happens? Are recommendations made to the lower house for a change of legislation. This has to go then the Senate. It will be a fairly long process maybe 2 years considering the current amount of legislation that needs consideration.
I suppose should it get to the first stage- tableing of a bill- the mongrels will know the game is up and quietly stop the cadet scheme. That is of course if we don't have a change of government before that happens.
Food for thought.

[PLovett]

After the Senate inquiry what happens? Are recommendations made to the lower house for a change of legislation. This has to go then the Senate. It will be a fairly long process maybe 2 years considering the current amount of legislation that needs consideration.
I suppose should it get to the first stage- tableing of a bill- the mongrels will know the game is up and quietly stop the cadet scheme. That is of course if we don't have a change of government before that happens.
Food for thought.

WP - A private bill could be introduced into the Senate as it is not a "money bill", i.e. anything to do with taxation, however, it would probably have a snowball's chance in hell of succeeding without government support. In these strange days of parliamentary "horse trading" with independent members holding the balance of power in the House of Reps and after 1 July the Greens will have the same in the Senate there may be a chance but I am not going to hold my breath. Senate committee reports are a dime a dozen but not a lot comes from them unless the public at large get interested.

[KRUSTY 34]

If the parlimentary process boggs down and any action that should result from the inquiry is delayed, and the unthinkable happens in the meantime, at least we, the interested public can say that none of you weren't warned. But a fat lot of good it'll do then!

Light a fire under it Pollies. For when the sh!t hits the fan, you will be the ones in the firing line for not acting quickly enough, along with the criminals who are perpetuating these rorts. :=

[The Kelpie]

Senator X does not strike me as a person that will allow it to get bogged down. Just look how fast he got the enquiry up and running!

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[Mr. Hat]

Stick shakers on the way to Canberra might speed up the process...

[bucko70]

LISTEN UP. John Laws on radio today Tuesday 15th March after the 10 am news. He is VERY interested to hear about the goings on at QF HQ and QF pilots being squeezed out of the flight deck- so here's your chance!
2SM 1269 Sydney

[bucko70]

LISTEN UP. John Laws on radio today Tuesday 15th March after the 10 am news. He is VERY interested to hear about the goings on at QF HQ and QF pilots being squeezed out of the flight deck- so here's your chance!
2SM 1269 Sydney

[Mr. Hat]

Media Links to J Laws.

2SM - Listen Live - Sydney's Talk, News and Entertainment Station with John Laws (http://www.2sm.com.au/listen.html)

[The Kelpie]

Bugger!!

I am in meetings this morning, I would have loved to have a chat with John on the subject.

Hopefully I can hear the broadcast later.

Is he only interested in QF or is Jetstar on his radar too?

The Kelpie

[Mr. Hat]

Have a look around his website you can download his commentary.

[bucko70]

Kelpie,
He is interested in Australian pilots jobs staying in Australia. He's aware of the QF dramas, but what's going down at Jetstar will floor him.

[The Kelpie]

Nightmare!!!

I just cannot get out of my meetings, otherwise I would be on the blower, hopefully the QF stuff will prompt him to do another talkback on Jetstar.

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[Mr. Hat]

Apparently John has a QF pilot in the family so he's got a bit of an idea.

Well done Kate for plugging the Senate Inquiry. She got the message across very nicely.

[KRUSTY 34]

Just listened to "Kate" the wife of a Qantas Captain talking to Lawsie'.

Points she made...

You may board a QF flight, but may not have Qantas pilots up front
It is illegal for 2-300 hour pilots to fly RPT in the US, Lawsie was surprised by that!
Joyce was unable to satifactorily answer some Senate enquiry questions, hense his and Buchanan's recall on Friday.
People should tune in to the enquiry.
Joyce will probably get rid of Wirth (Krusty: it seemed to me as a scapegoat, but also due to her incompetance and willingness to bend the truth)
the Qantas mangements statement of a demand for a 26% payrise by Qantas pilots is just crazy. More lies and spin from QF HR. It's as we all know 2.5%! Kate's a teacher and she has currently been offered 9%.Go Kate!!!

[hotnhigh]

A flood starts with a trickle. Wake up Australia.

[The Kelpie]

Joyce on John Laws now.

[The Kelpie]

Go John Laws, Joyce is making an arse of himself....he sounded a bit nervous to me!!!

.....well more spin!!!


So now Joyce admits that Jetstar Asia and Vietnam are regulated by the Singapore CAA. So Senator, not good speaking to CASA and the ATSB then - despite them flying VH registered aircraft!!!

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[Ken Borough]

Having heard Kate's drivel, I wonder if she's a stooge. Her knowledge was supoerficial, effort was abysmal and was prepared to gild the lily on some points. Red neck radio is alive an well. :E:E

The problem for AIPA is that hardly anyone listens to 2SM and John Laws: Laws' attitudes, like that of the pilots industrial campaign, is out of touch with reality. :mad::mad::ugh::ugh:

[mcgrath50]

KB,

Least it is starting to get mainstream attention, last time these issues were getting this was 89!

[tiger19]

Ken, were the bloke who got air time on John Laws bagging kate????

[Ken Borough]

Tiger,

Not at all - I wouldn't waste my money!!! :ok:

McG50,

2SM mainstream media? Yer joking, I hope. 2SM does not even feature in the Nielson rating surveys which measures listening audience. I suspect that it's SYD's lowest ranking station with OAPs being the typical listener. As for John Laws, he's as stale as the spilled beer you smell at the local pub! And he USED to be on a Qantas retainer in years past.

[KRUSTY 34]

Good to see some "balance" in the debate Ken :rolleyes:, but I don't think Kate is the stooge here!

As for Joyce's drivel, and that was the real drivel, it's a shame that Lawsie' didn't ask the right questions. Perhaps he should have a good chat with his "Family member".

[TIMA9X]

The problem for AIPA is that hardly anyone listens to 2SM and John Laws: Laws' attitudes,Well AJ thought it important enough to go an air and speak to Laws, the other stations will follow, once the word gets out about the ground staff as well as the pilots. Joyce is presiding over a unhappy workforce who are at the end of their tethers with the management. Ten years of cost cutting with no end in sight, possibly has a lot to do with it.:ugh:

[RENURPP]

Laws maybe on a low rating radio station, however, he has just returned and I suspect f lot of his old listeners have returned with him, and regardless of their demographics, the topic is becoming warmer, warmer warmer..............

[speeeedy]

Are you sure Ken?

Laws read out an email from "Ken Borough" saying that Laws should not listen to "Drivel" from a Qantas Captains wife wanting to protect terms and conditions which are 20 years out of date etc etc.

Same name, same viewpoint and even the same word (Drivel) as you just used.

Coincidence? I think not.

[Ken Borough]

I didn't get airtime as I didn't call. Laws may have chosen to read an email from me but I don't know. Nor do I care. I went back to the ABC after a couple of minutes of cr@p from the pilots wife. Is there now another demographic like "Doctors' Wives"? I don't mind debate but when it's so unbalanced I just tune out.

Why the AIPA bloke got airtime is beyond me. I would keep him flying and get a professional spin-doctor on the job as he didn't advance your cause an ounce of good IMHO.

[Going Boeing]

Ken, from your posts, it's obvious that you are a management stooge - I'm just interested to know whose position you are after?

[33 Disengage]

Were you so disinterested in Lawsie's program that you tracked down his email address and fired off an email? Is that what you are telling us?

Did you sent the email before or after you told AJ that he had better call the program to respond?

After listening to AJ, do you think he needs a professional spin-doctor too? Or was little Ms W putting out bush fires elsewhere in the media at the time?

[Ken Borough]

33,

No, not telling fibs at all. I listened to Laws after having been told what was expected to be broadcast. He actually gave his email address on air so anyone could have written a repsonse to what was said. And no, I didn't hear AJ as I had moved on to the ABC, and if you follow PPRUNE you will see that I've been very critical of Qanrtas' PR efforts. Alan certainly does need a professional spin-doctor as much damage has already been inflicted on the Comapny as a result of poor media management.

GB - I'm my own person and certainly not a stooge for Management.:ok:

[The Kelpie]

Safety is our first priority

LH are scanning aircraft for radioactivity, guess what the QF / JQ response was?

Jetstar, which is still operating flights in and out of Japan, said it was not specifically scanning planes for signs of radioactivity.
"From our perspective, we are continuing safe operations to and from Japan and closely monitoring the situation," a Jetstar spokesperson told Australian Business Traveller.
Qantas said it was not required to scan its planes for radioactivity.
"It is European policy for aircraft to be tested. We are monitoring the situation very closely and meeting all Australian Government requirements. Should this change, we will continue to meet all government requirements," spokesman Simon Rushton said.

THIS COMPANY IS A JOKE!!!

[mcgrath50]

2SM - John Laws - Sydney's Talk, News and Entertainment Station (http://www.2sm.com.au/laws.html#audio)

Podcast on there, the QF bit is from 46 mins.

[denabol]

It seems to me there is one reporter who is never going to be invited into the Chairmans Club.

Will apathy allow Qantas to off-shore more? – Plane Talking (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2011/03/15/will-apathy-allow-qantas-to-off-shore-more/)

[Mr. Hat]

How much truth is coming out of Japan?

Loss of face could be a factor in how much is being reported. Its a possibility and something to consider.

Another one to consider is that ultimately the airline wouldn't give a damn if there was a radiation risk. All they want is bums on seats and ops normal.

Had it been a volcanic ash issue it may be different. Thats a threat to the machinery and thats a different story entirely.

Sorry guys I've got my cynical hat on today.

My post from the Jq OOL thread. Surprise surprise turns out the estimates were grossly under quoted accorfing to this B. Sandilands article :Serene lies flow from Fukushima nuclear disaster zone – Plane Talking (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2011/03/15/serene-lies-flow-from-fukushima-nuclear-disaster-zone/)

Good on the Cabin Crew for saying no to that flight.

As for Mr Ken B? Well he is entitled to his opinion and just because he doesn't agree with the majority here doesn't mean he is wrong or QF management for that matter!

I CAN say this however: Don't come-a-whingin to me when all the experience pisses off overseas and you're left with cadet pilots from third world countries making an almighty mess of things! I'm already getting the giggles at the thought of it :E.

As for overpaid QF guys? Ken do you think the QF 32 families think they're overpaid? Again, just difference of opinions I suppose.

The way I see it is that QF pilots are actually trying to save AJ's job in the long term. He's got the most amazing case of tunnel vision I've ever seen. Its like a seriously bad day at the casino.

[onedottoolow]

[QUOTE][/Jetstar, which is still operating flights in and out of Japan, said it was not specifically scanning planes for signs of radioactivity.
"From our perspective, we are continuing safe operations to and from Japan and closely monitoring the situation," a Jetstar spokesperson told Australian Business Traveller.
Qantas said it was not required to scan its planes for radioactivity.
"It is European policy for aircraft to be tested. We are monitoring the situation very closely and meeting all Australian Government requirements. Should this change, we will continue to meet all government requirements," spokesman Simon Rushton said.]

So I guess this means when the regulator say's

No need for fuel tests
No need for pax briefing
No need for crew briefing
And so the list could go on!

Does this mean that it then won't be required because regulation's say you need not, Surely common sense would prevail. You cannot put any cost saving figure on safety the fact is you must spend in the area to keep safety standards high

[no one]

AJ said

"Jetstar Australia buisness as an example is growing rapidly, Jetstar in January added 40% capacity to it's domestic operation, it's recruiting and growing it's buisness here..."
Now I'm confused, I have been on hold since mid last year and not herd anything about recruiting for Jetstar Australia.

no one

[Xcel]

Won't hear anything if your only qualification is a sheppards ticket...(says the bloke who now can't figure out how many p's in sheppard)

Holding my breath and turning blue for some changes though...

Keep up the good work kelpie ben and senator x...

[onedottoolow]

Does anyone know if tomorrows senate enquiry is broadcast ?
It is not listed on their website.

[The Kelpie]

All very hush hush about tomorrow. I am surprised the schedule has not been published yet, just sitting as TBA at the moment.

It is not unusual for the broadcast not to be listed until the day of the hearing.

Word is that it is an all day thing with morning witnesses (rumoured to be pilots) being held 'in camera' and therefore in private and unbroadcast and then the rest in the afternoon although Joyce and Buchanan have requested that some of their evidence be heard 'in camera' also.

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The Kelpie

[The Kelpie]

This is what can happen overseas

Delhi to investigate 4500 pilot licences


EVEN the most cavalier passengers knew something was amiss onboard IndiGo airlines' January 11 flight from Goa when it landed with a terrifying, lurching thud - nose wheel first - on the New Delhi tarmac.


The flight's captain, Parminder Kaur Gulati, may have been the only one that day to see nothing awry in the unconventional and perilous landing.

A subsequent investigation determined she had done it 15 times before. More distressing still was the discovery that Ms Gulati, 38, had failed one of her pilot exams and then forged her results to obtain her licence.

"Only a woman could do it,'' read an ensuing headline - one of several predictable joke lines that followed, besmirching women drivers.

As it turns out, Parminder Gulati was merely the tip of the iceberg. With a second pilot arrested for licence fraud on the weekend and an alert issued for two more absconders, India's Civil Aviation Minister Vayalar Ravi has been forced to launch a national investigation into the validity of more than 4500 Indian pilot licences.

"I have directed the DGCA (Directorate General of Civil Aviation) to examine all the licences issued in the past and to establish a procedure for more detailed verification while issuing such licences,'' Mr Ravi told parliament on Tuesday.

"I propose to set up an expert committee in the ministry to examine the current examination system, need for introduction of e-technology, new procedures and process and effective system of cross-verification of documents filed by candidates for various licences in DGCA.''

In a country where it is not uncommon for parents to present their children with a driver's licence inside their 18th birthday cards, the notion that some pilot licences may have been bought rather than earned should not come as such a surprise.

India's airlines have struggled in recent years to recruit enough pilots to keep up with demand for air travel among India's rapidly expanding middle classes.

But the revelations have shaken the community at a time when billion-dollar government corruption scams are dominating the national headlines.

Adding to the Indian aviation industry's woes - and passenger anxiety - this month is a report revealing 57 pilots were caught drunk on duty in the past two years, but only 10 were dismissed.

Mr Ravi said the remaining 47 pilots were either issued warning letters or removed from flying duties for a short period.

The Indian Pilots Guild has also called for an end to "nepotism and corruption'', citing the recruitment last year of the son of an Air India commander to its low-cost carrier Air India Express after he failed a compulsory written pilot's test.

In January this year, the same man was promoted to Air India's much sought-after Boeing 777 training program.
Last May, a plane crash in southern India killed 158 people and an official investigation later blamed it on a "sleepy pilot''

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The Kelpie

[framer]

What reason would AJ give for giving info 'in camera' ?
Is the transcript for 'in camera' given?
I can understand pilots wanting to protect their jobs but as the CEO I thought he should be able to answer any questions directed at him by any politician and be happy for that to be broadcast.
Is it a commercial sensitivity issue?

[The Kelpie]

Framer

Cannot answer your questions for definate.

Given the generic questions being asked by the Senators I cannot see why the responses are commercially sensitive, unless of course you deliberately make the responses commercially sensitive to enable you to make a valid 'in camera' request to keep everything out of the public domain.

The last time he gave evidence the public was all over it and offerred hard evidence to refute his testimony leaving himself and Buchanan open to accusations of Contempt of Parliment.

Clearly he is trying to play a game. If he is not doing anything shonky there should be no problem in answering the questions in the public domain as long as the senators do not release sensitive information given in the written responses to the questions posed 'on notice'

'In Camera' evidence as far as I am aware is not included in the transcript.

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The Kelpie

[framer]

Ta Kelpie,
That doesn't seem quite right does it.
Seems like he wants to give certain answers to certain questions without all us industry folk having the opportunity to call him on the untruths and half-truths. The problem is that the senators can't spot the bullsh1t as easily as us because their knowledge of the industry is not as intimate. Not their fault at all, it's just a complex field.
Is there a way of gaining the transcript through the 'freedom of information act' or similar?

[hotnhigh]

As per:
Parliament of Australia: House of Representatives: Appearing as a witness at a parliamentary committee hearing (http://www.aph.gov.au/house/committee/documnts/witadv.htm#incamera)

In camera (private) hearings


If before the hearing a witness considers that information to be provided by the witness or requested by the committee is confidential, the witness can request that the evidence be heard in camera. If the request is granted by the committee, the public and media will be excluded from the hearing. The Chair or any member of the committee also may request that the hearing be in camera, particularly if the evidence adversely reflects on a third person or is subject to legal proceedings.

While in camera evidence is treated as secret when it is heard, the committee has the power to publish the evidence at a later date if the circumstances warrant such action. If the committee gives an undertaking to the witness that in camera evidence will not be disclosed, such evidence would only be released by the committee with the written agreement of the witness.



The big question, though. Hasn't the hearing already begun wrt Joyce and Buchanan's statements?

[framer]

Thanks.
I think that any questions or answers that are not classified as confidential or [QUOTE adversely reflects on a third person or is subject to legal proceedings.QUOTE] need to be answered in a open manner for all to hear then. Hopefully the senators will demand this.

[hotnhigh]

Exactly framer. It's hard to imagine what sort of information the respective gentlemen are trying to protect from the public domain. :ok::=
Perhaps the competitors like emirates and cathay are waiting with bated breath for the secrets of running airline businesses from the smartest guys in the room.

[KRUSTY 34]

Just rang Parliment House and spoke to the girl putting together the program. Details should be on the website by tonite, and procedings start at 0945 tomorrow, finishing up at 1600. Public gallery will be open. Park in the public carpark in the lower level, enter the main marble foyer and ask for directions to Committe room 2S3.

Krusty

[The Kelpie]

Cheers Krusty.

[Ken Borough]

the smartest guys in the room.

If the truth be known, that would surely be the case. The Senate has produced little to suggest that there is an abundance of intelligence in the place. ;)

[Kemerton]

Any chance of a website link. Cheers

[Low and Fast]

Parliament of Australia: Live Broadcasting (http://webcast.aph.gov.au/livebroadcasting/default.aspx?eventDate=18/03/2011&eventtype=)

[FlareArmed]

I put the timestamps for the relevant parts of the Laws show for 15 March 11 below.

iTunes is the easiest 2SM: John Laws Highlights - Download free podcast episodes by 2SM 1269AM Sydney on iTunes. (http://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/2sm-john-laws-highlights/id415158309)

Laws intro 46:37

Woodward 47:58

Kate 1:01:17

Tim 1:14:40

Joyce 1:31:00

I couldn't find Ken Borough's email being read out.

[Capt Kremin]

Hold the bulk order of popcorn.... the QF delegation may not be turning up tomorrow??!

[Mr. Hat]

You're joking, I just bought one of those pop corn makers that HOYTS and GREATER UNION use.

Tickets selling fast and now I've got to give a refund?

[Ken Borough]

I couldn't find Ken Borough's email being read out.

It was obviously a lowlight! :O:ok:

[Capt Kremin]

Yeah sorry Mr H. Source confirms and apparently the Senators are a tad peeved.

Hopefully they may still show, but not at the moment.

[rodchucker]

Does anyone know if JB is appearing or scheduled to turn up in the future?

Lets hope the Senators have some balls to take the fight to all and sundry who choose to have a battle.

Seems the Rat do want to fight the whole world, so it must be a strategy.

[The Kelpie]

According to the Schedule they are not!!

9:45 am
Virgin Blue
Mr John Borghetti, Chief Executive Officer
Mr Sean Donohue, Group Executive Operations
Ms Jane McKeon, Group Executive Government Relations
Mr Rick Howell, General Manager, Flight Operations
Mr Mike Hockin, General Manager, Engineering
Mr Stuart Aggs, Acting General Manager, Safety Systems
Mr Stuart Haynes, Manager, Flight Standards
17
11:15 pm
Mr Stephen Phillips [via teleconference]
Private capacity
15
12:00 pm
Lunch

12:45 pm
Australian and International Pilots Association
Captain Richard Woodward, Vice President
Captain Dick Mackerras, Safety and Technical Consultant
6
1: 45pm
CASA
Mr John McCormick, Director of Aviation Safety
Mr Terence Farquharson, Deputy Director of Aviation Safety
Dr Jonathon Aleck, Associate Director of Aviation Safety
Mr Roger Crosthwaite, Manager, Permission Application Centre
Mr Peter Boyd, Executive Manager, Standards Division
Mr Greg Hood, Executive Manager, Operations Division
Mr Grant Mazowita, Manager, Standards Development
Mr Nicholas Ward, Manager, Certification and Airworthiness
ATSB
Mr Martin Dolan, Commissioner
Mr Patrick Hornby, Manager, Legal Services
Mr Julian Walsh, General Manager, Strategic Capability
12

[The Kelpie]

Contempt of the Senate and remedies for contempt



When the actions of a witness or another person influencing a witness have the effect of obstructing the inquiries of a Senate committee (or future inquiries), those actions may be treated as contempts. Examples of such offences include:

Refusing without reasonable excuse to answer a question;
Giving false or misleading evidence;
Failing to attend or to produce documents when required to do so;
Intimidation of a witness;
Adverse treatment of a witness;
Wilfully disturbing a committee while it is meeting.
The Parliamentary Privileges Act 1987 provides that a House of Parliament may impose terms of imprisonment or substantial fines for individuals and corporations as a penalty for contempt. To date the Senate has not had occasion to use either of these penalties, preferring an educative and preventative approach. The Senate has accepted apologies and remedial action, and has encouraged government officials in particular to attend training courses on the rights and obligations of witnesses before parliamentary committees.
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The Kelpie

[The Kelpie]

Dear Alan and Bruce

I know things are difficult for you at the moment and that all your dirty little secrets are about to be exposed for the whole of Australia and the World to see. But honestly you will feel much better once it is all out in the open!!!

A problem shared is indeed a problem halved!!!

YOU MY FRIENDS ARE THE PROBLEM!!!

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The Kelpie

[TIMA9X]

Hopefully they may still show, but not at the moment. Suggest 4 Corners would be interested if they don't show, it would be a shot in the arm for the cause me thinks..:ok:

[hotnhigh]

Perhaps an addendum to the upcoming Monday night story?:D

[The Kelpie]

HotnHigh

Have we got a firm date for that story yet??

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The Kelpie

[The Kelpie]

Dominic

Canberra

Web broadcast on the Senate website.

[Mr. Hat]

Geez have a look at the list from Virgin. Impressive.

QF and J* a no show. AJ and BB couldn't make it worse if they tried.

[The Kelpie]

Line Training or Line Operations, it does not matter as they are one of the same just like your dysfunctional company structure.

The message is Aussie flying, Aussie pilots, Aussie pay!!

Aussie Aussie Aussie!!

C'mon fair go Bruce!!

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The Kelpie

[The Kelpie]

Mr Hat (and Alan and Bruce if you are reading....I know you are!)

The chapter in the big management manual you are looking for is chapter 13 - damage limitation!!

The game is almost up.

My prediction: may/June this year QANTAS (no other subsidiaries) and all fleet repainted with our national icon on the tail.

Stand proud Australia.


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The Kelpie

[The Kelpie]

Hey Alan and Bruce

You wanna know who I am. Ok I'll tell you but only if you both front up in Canberra tomorrow. You know the time, you know the place!!

I look forward to looking you in the eyes. PM me!

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The Kelpie

[chockchucker]

FYI Bruce Buchannan and an assortment of other Jetstar management were sighted in a Singapore hotel yesterday heading up to meetings in the hotel Boardroom with a number of other un-identified people.


No doubt trying to devise more wonderful ways of circumventing the Qantas sale act.

[ejectx3]

http://img830.imageshack.us/img830/7277/designalldllp.jpg (http://img830.imageshack.us/i/designalldllp.jpg/)



Wear 'em proud lads!

[Keg]

We need to update this for the correct year but the sentiment sticks:

http://images0.cpcache.com/product/187663780v2_480x480_Front.jpg
:ok:

Or perhaps this one is better:

http://images4.cpcache.com/product/192711564v1_480x480_Front.jpg

Enough of the jocularity...... back to the thread! :E

[framer]

Where does the info come from that they are not turning up?
What could possibly be more importnat than a senate inquiry into , for all intents and purposes, flight safety in their own country?
"safety is our highest priority" lol

[Low and Fast]

Gota love the Humour LOL......etc

Maybe this thread will be more popular than "Days of Our Lives".

Great Stuff

[John Citizen]

Must be another wedding on, or maybe a funeral this time. :}

Keep up the good work Kelpie :ok:

[John Citizen]

I actually was intending to turn up but apparently the dog ate my homework

http://static.tvfanatic.com/images/gallery/santas-little-helper-photo.gif

[John Citizen]

http://babysimpson.co.uk/info/blackboards/7f03_during.jpg

[KRUSTY 34]

Unfortunately it is confirmed framer. The parliamentary website posted the program late yesterday, and these two slippery eels are not on it!

Damn, drycleaned my suit and everything. Lot's to do at home at least, but when they appear next time (probably under a supeona) I'll be there! :suspect:

[The Kelpie]

Krusty

There is a Rumour that they will still turn up. Total Rumour but it seems they were a bit shy and did not want to look the pilots that were going to watch in the eye!!

All a ploy so you guys don't bother turning up?

[The Kelpie]

Ben, your on the money again my friend!!!

Qantas and Jetstar no shows before Senate today
March 18, 2011 – 7:45 am, by Ben Sandilands
Qantas CEO Alan Joyce and Jetstar Group CEO Bruce Buchanan are no shows at today’s public hearing by the Senate committee inquiring into pilot training and airline safety in Australia.

However while their attendance had been widely anticipated, and indeed requested, they were never confirmed as attending today to answer further questions arising from their previous testimony on February 25.

Both men are very busy, and certainly too busy today for the Senate. Which will just have to wait.

But the inquiry, chaired by Senator Bill Heffernan, and instigated by Sentator Nick Xenophon, has produced some astonishing revelations to date, including a series of ‘stick shaker’ events on Qantaslink turbo props, the very ones the good senators often fly on.

It has also heard the CEO of CASA, John McCormick, and the chief commissioner of the ATSB, Martin Dolan, flatly contradict the Qantas submission on the causes of the near disaster with a Jetstar A320 attempting to land in fog at Tullamarine on July 27, 2007,* and it has heard Joyce rebuffed trying to reinvent history over the reasons for the CASA inquiry into the incident.

It will hear from McCormick and Dolan again today.

And it will hear from the pilots, or at least the major union, when the Australian and International Pilots Association, returns to the table, fuming, one suspects over the testimony on the Jetstar Cadet Scheme/sham/whatever, that Buchanan gave on February 25 because this seeming attempt to subvert Australian superannuation levies and industrial awards or agreements by paying Australian workers NZ money. And not very much of it either.

That Cadet Scheme now appears to have morphed into something else. Buchanan’s commentary on this is apparently eagerly awaited, and no doubt both he and Joyce will grace the inquiry with their attendance in due course, when it suits them of course.

Also rocking up to the table today is Virgin Blue CEO John Borghetti, who it is expected will take the inquiry through the two pages A4 sized submission his company made to the inquiry.* The committee has provided at least 90 minutes to discuss the two pages with Borghetti, which should be an interesting if not searching exercise.

Borghetti was unable to attend the February 25 hearings because he was in Abu Dhabi stitching up his former employer Qantas with a wickedly clever alliance with Etihad.

He has a fantastic opportunity this morning to sell the merits of his E-jet flights to Canberra to the good senators over those clunky buzzy stick shaking Qantaslink prop jets.

[The Kelpie]

Borghetti was unable to attend the February 25 hearings because he was in Abu Dhabi stitching up his former employer Qantas with a wickedly clever alliance with Etihad.

A message for Clifford and the rest of the Qantas board.

YOU BACKED THE WRONG HORSE!!!

[KRUSTY 34]

Thank's for the PM Kelpie.

I've logged onto the Broadcast stream, and the usual page comes up with the elevator music and a note on the left hand side saying "In Camera". Does this mean that the In Camera submissions will be actually be broadcast at 0915, or will we only be able to see the program broadcast at 0945?

[Mr. Hat]

The game is almost up.

You ARE the optimist Kelpie. I'll give you that!

You haven't factored in the Gillard/Albanese/Abbot/Whoever gravy train my friend. Have a read of the B. Sandilands article again Will apathy allow Qantas to off-shore more? – Plane Talking (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2011/03/15/will-apathy-allow-qantas-to-off-shore-more/) its like he's been reading my mind. Its a cracker and I reckon its absolutely spot on the money. There is BIG money on the table here.


My prediction is this:

Big business ALWAYS wins in Australia and the Inquiry findings will be drowned by the sheer might of the QF group. As I've said I don't see the problem as AJ BB or B2 I see the problem as a totally corrupt government system addicted to squeezing every last drop out of the Australian tax payer. They have painted themselves into a corner and they know it. The EK roadshow might have a longer line than predicted.

Ohh looky that an article about the possible pilot "shortage"in the Australian. These people have far reaching power and can make eskimos buy expensive ice.

The ONLY hope lies in Senator X and its why I called him "the most important person in our industry".

Contempt of the Senate and remedies for contempt



When the actions of a witness or another person influencing a witness have the effect of obstructing the inquiries of a Senate committee (or future inquiries), those actions may be treated as contempts. Examples of such offences include:
Refusing without reasonable excuse to answer a question;
Giving false or misleading evidence;
Failing to attend or to produce documents when required to do so;
Intimidation of a witness;
Adverse treatment of a witness;
Wilfully disturbing a committee while it is meeting.
The Parliamentary Privileges Act 1987 provides that a House of Parliament may impose terms of imprisonment or substantial fines for individuals and corporations as a penalty for contempt. To date the Senate has not had occasion to use either of these penalties, preferring an educative and preventative approach. The Senate has accepted apologies and remedial action, and has encouraged government officials in particular to attend training courses on the rights and obligations of witnesses before parliamentary committees.

There should be a disclamer saying this doesn't apply to the powerful and influential.

[The Kelpie]

Krusty

No it means that the Hearing has started and that the Senators are asking questions of individuals as we speak in private!!! (Not AJ and BB though).

Public broadcast starts at 9.45 Canberra Time

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The Kelpie

[The Kelpie]

Thats the point Mr Hat

The Qantas Group is a big game of smoke and mirrors.

The Senators will soon realise that the Qantas group is no the big company it was and that Joyce say it is, and that it is a franchise that is full of foreign investment and shareholders. In order to survive that business relies on the breaking of fundamentl laws of the Australian Land. Not really the Spirit of Australia is it?? Unfortunately allowing Qantas to break the laws that they are breaking means that if the Government condone it then it will open the floodgates, many aspects of important Australian legislation will be in tatters.

remember I said it was about the people? Well the Airline Industry is just a trojan horse for Keith Abbott, HR Exec at Jetstar, (who incidently is undertaking his first job in an airline after a successul career in mining and oil) to get through changes in legislation/support from the Government before he and his friends rip the whole thing apart and he returns to the mining industry a hero!! Australian Citizens working for sham Asian corporations in the Australian mines getting paid Asian Money!! Potentially there will be no australian employers, they will all be based offshore and paying taxes to foreign countries.

Would it surprise you to know that Boston Consulting has clients in the Mining and oil industry?? Do you think KA's appointment was by chance??

I liken the business strategy to that employed by the banks who relied )and thrived on american credit to allow their own business to flourish. Check out Royal Bank of Scotland a bank that sub-contracted its lending to the US. Just see what happenned to them!!) Then the Americans buggerred their own economy and the bloody lot fell down just like a house of cards.

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The Kelpie

[Mr. Hat]

I'm surprised there has been no comment on here about the brilliantly timed Steve Creedy article on the pilot shortage in The Australian in this thread.

He's using those old figures that the use at flying schools to get students in. You know "mass retirements" "there will be nobody to fly". The timing and tokeness of it shows the influence of business not over just government but also the media.

[Nose wheel first]

Keep up the good work Kelpie!!! You are doing outstanding work!

I'm in QLD, but wish I could join all of you who are going to the inquiry today.... and indeed when the elusive QF pair show up some time in the future.

This is a defining time in Aus (and to a lesser extent NZ) aviation.

[Fonz121]

Virgin Blue Cadetship to start early 2012.

So kids, if your goal is to fly for a major Aussie carrier after 2011 you have just been set another massive hurdle.

[limelight]

This is today's piece by Ben Sandilands, as posted to 'Place Talking'.





Qantas CEO Alan Joyce and Jetstar Group CEO Bruce Buchanan are no shows at today’s public hearing by the Senate committee inquiring into pilot training and airline safety in Australia.
However while their attendance had been widely anticipated, and indeed requested, they were never confirmed as attending today to answer further questions arising from their previous testimony (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2011/02/27/why-the-senate-needs-to-recall-qantas-executives/) on February 25.
Both men are very busy, and certainly too busy today for the Senate. Which will just have to wait.
But the inquiry, chaired by Senator Bill Heffernan, and instigated by Sentator Nick Xenophon, has produced some astonishing revelations to date, including a series of ‘stick shaker’ events on Qantaslink turbo props, the very ones the good senators often fly on.
It has also heard the CEO of CASA, John McCormick, and the chief commissioner of the ATSB, Martin Dolan, flatly contradict the Qantas submission on the causes of the near disaster with a Jetstar A320 attempting to land in fog at Tullamarine on July 27, 2007, and it has heard Joyce rebuffed trying to reinvent history over the reasons for the CASA inquiry into the incident.
It will hear from McCormick and Dolan again today.
And it will hear from the pilots, or at least the major union, when the Australian and International Pilots Association, returns to the table, fuming, one suspects over the testimony on the Jetstar Cadet Scheme/sham/whatever, that Buchanan gave on February 25 because this seeming attempt to subvert Australian superannuation levies and industrial awards or agreements by paying Australian workers NZ money. And not very much of it either.
That Cadet Scheme now appears to have morphed into something else. Buchanan’s commentary on this is apparently eagerly awaited, and no doubt both he and Joyce will grace the inquiry with their attendance in due course, when it suits them.
Also rocking up to the table today is Virgin Blue CEO John Borghetti, who it is expected will take the inquiry through the two pages A4 sized submission his company made to the inquiry. The committee has provided at least 90 minutes to discuss the two pages with Borghetti, which should be an interesting if not searching exercise.
Borghetti was unable to attend the February 25 hearings because he was in Abu Dhabi stitching up his former employer Qantas with a wickedly clever alliance with Etihad.
He has a fantastic opportunity this morning to sell the merits of his E-jet flights to Canberra to the good senators over those clunky buzzy stick shaking Qantaslink prop jets.

[Xcel]

^^just started a new thread on The cadets, as I'm sure many who haven't seen the enquiry may wish to comment...

[The Kelpie]

Well the evidence seemed a lot more balanced.

Do not be suprised if the QF lot make an appearance this afternoon after that professional display from John borghetti!!!

Today my friends the winds changed direction and in doing so mark the beginning of the future of safer skies in Australia.

Prediction 2: Stephen Phillips - The second most important man in aviation - don't be suprised if the senators engage this guy to lead a task force looking into training deeper!!

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[cynphil]

It was interesting to see JB make an issue that Virgin was not trying to offshore work but the opposite, and have growth to occur in Australia unlike QF/JQ which is only going down the offshore base path(obviously to save money on wages and conditions). It is easy to see that JB has his finger on the pulse and is distancing himself from the Qantas/Jetstar divide and conquer approach to setting up offshore bases with lower pay and conditions!

[The Kelpie]

Yes Cynphil.

Now all John has to do is deliver.

He will never have a shortage of pilots or crew working for him if all he and his representatives said was true.

More to follow

The Kelpie

[ANCDU]

Although i have great respect for JB, he is still running an airline that is competing in an overcrowded market with limited funds and huge competition from both the leisure and business ends of the market. Do you really think he won't go down the same path as J* if he is able and there are huge savings to be made with low time cadets and offshoring? He can say whatever he wants to the enquiry (doesn't everyone else?) but in the end if he is bleeding cash against an airline with lower costs what do you think he will do?

I really hope i'm wrong, but he was the one that basically set up Jetconnect on the Tasman against mainline pilots, and a two page submission doesn't really fill me with confidence! As Kelpie basically says, actions speak louder than words. I wait in hope that he will show the clowns at Qantas how to run an airline with the staff engaged, but i won't be holding my breath. At least he had the decency to turn up!

[rmcdonal]

but i won't be holding my breath. At least he had the decency to turn up!
Not a fair call, Virgin failed to show up for the last one.

[apache]

http://webcast.aph.gov.au/livebroadcasting/default.aspx?eventDate=18/03/2011&eventtype=

[rodchucker]

JB and team well done.

Atlast we have what appears to be an industry leader prepared to stand up and be counted after a false start which he took on the chin. Played a brilliant balancing act by letting his team perform when they should and be prepared to sit back and let them show their skills. No toxic culture at DJ I suspect.

Presentation was clear and articulate and for a change didnt want to fight the world. Refreshing to hear of engagement with the world (atleast on the face of it) on a reasonable basis and with a clear vision of where he is going.

Politically clever in distancing from all things Orange without sticking the knife in which would have been so easy.

Well done.

ps I am not a DJ employee but merely an interested observer.

[Mr. Hat]

Today my friends marks the beginning of the future of safer skies in Australia.

How so?

I'm sorry but I don't think the questions the Senators are asking are specific enough. The depth of knowledge just isn't there.

Everybody bags J* for cadets then Virgin announces them and its hailed as a beginning of safety?

Stephen Philips was excellent.

[metrosmoker]

Incredible. Quoting the 12th Man,
"Geeze you guys are FU&^ED in the head sometimes.

You clowns have bagged Creedy for just about every article he has written over th last 12months, but when he says something negative about management, he is suddenly a good reporter.

Borghetti turns up to the Senate enquiry and the winds of change are sweeping through aviation in this country. This makes him better than AJ and BB because they didnt turn up. Correct me if I am wrong, and I know I`m not, but didn`t Borghetti not show up once before?
Oh thats right, he was doing something more important. Maybe the other 2 were as well today.

Virgin are set to annnounce a Cadet scheme. That is ok, because it doesn`t effect Qantas mainline. It is only the Jetstar cadetship that is a threat to jobs, safety, career progression.

And one last question. You guys are claiming that QF are being unreasonable with EBA negotiations. You have OFFERED to be more productive for a very small wage increase. As a shareholder, Why aren`t you being as productive as you could be in the first place? Why does the company have to pay you more money to be efficient?

[Mr. Hat]

i'm hearin' you metro..

[CaptCloudbuster]

Why does the company have to pay you more money to be efficient?

Because thats how enterprise bargaining works:rolleyes:

[metrosmoker]

The company is struggling, you pay $180000 to a pilot to sit in the back seat and fold the Captains maps. And they only have to go to work once or twice a month. So if the company pays him even more money,he will do what? An extra trip per month.
Yep that is efficient.

If you want a one sided debate, move this to Qroom or the secret AIPA EBA website. There you can all p!ss and moan about how the world is against you. You can all pat each other on the back and tell yourselves how great you are, how well AIPA is doing in the fight for aviation in this country. And you will have no one interupt you delusions of grandeur and world domination, like some of the ignorant (like me) fools on this site that live in the real friggin world.

The bias and one sidedness of your views continually highlighted everyday.
The only threat to jobs, is Jetstar.
The onlythreat to progression and job security, Jetstar.
The only threat to safety, is Jetstar.
The only pilot group in the world that fly for inferior terms and conditions, Jetstar.
The only bad CEO in the industry is BB and AJ, who used to work at Jetstar.

Nothing more to follow!

[Mr. Hat]

Virgin are set to annnounce a Cadet scheme. That is ok, because it doesn`t effect Qantas mainline. It is only the Jetstar cadetship that is a threat to jobs, safety, career progression.

The only threat to jobs, is Jetstar.
The onlythreat to progression and job security, Jetstar.
The only threat to safety, is Jetstar.
The only pilot group in the world that fly for inferior terms and conditions, Jetstar.
The only bad CEO in the industry is BB and AJ, who used to work at Jetstar.

Yep as much as I dislike what is going on at Jetstar I don't think they are the root of all problems. The root is the way the whole industry is run. I'm sorry to say but I don't really think the truth is coming out. Theres a lot of gloss and bat patting going on. Sorry to be the party pooper but I'm losing interest after the latest episode.

Where are the lawyer/barrister/QC style question that really get to the core?

Maybe I need to lower my expectations.

[CaptCloudbuster]

you can all p!ss and moan about how the world is against you

Why should you be the only one allowed to piss and moan:{

[Xcel]

Metrosmoker

pull your head in. Have a look at similar transport industries and the see how far behind the aviation industry is lagging.

If you feel so strongly about these overpaid Qantas pilots how about:
1. Sell your shares
2. Buy more shares (alot more) to buy a seat on the board
3. Go visit ah at the agm and cast your vote

as from you "the company is struggling" and it has nothing to do with second officers pay or contributions...

How about the highest paid management team for any airline in the world...
Or the continued mismanagement of crew and resources... Yet with your shareholder vote you would prefer to piss it up the wall and keep them in place and blame eba negotiations...

And I don't even work for them or any subsidiaries

[Xcel]

The real circus is not Jetstar but the clowns giving submissions now...

Casa can't be serious... The are so far the most amateur submissions and least knowledgable of anything even remotely close to reality. Clean sweep, change the name again, and start it all over again this is absolute bs...

To many chiefs not enough Indians no one knows their ass from their elbow...

[Mr. Hat]

Yes Excel but it seems the Senators have ramped it up a bit more.

[Mr. Hat]

What a cracker by the CASA bloke.

"There is no such thing as a low cost".."the fees are fixed, the charges are fixed, the fuel is fixed so where do you get the saving?...the CREW".

[rmcdonal]

Did I hear CASA correctly, did he just say "The only way to fix fatigue is to pay them more money" ?

[Xcel]

And Ramped it up quite rightly...
Why do we need to continue to wait and see with these clowns. Make A decision and regulate safety not just lobbying bs...

And yes as far as this clown is concerned money talks...

[Mr. Hat]

Basically the connection between fatigue/long hours/money has been made.

[mcgrath50]

"There is no such thing as a low cost".."the fees are fixed, the charges are fixed, the fuel is fixed so where do you get the saving?...the CREW".


I don't believe it. A serious, realistic suggestion from CASA :{ Give that man a medal! Best bit is it didn't come from a pilot!

[Capt_SNAFU]

I'd love to see them turn a full Jumbo in 40 minutes. Possible yes likely? The crew can. The pax on the other hand hardly ever help.

[The Bunglerat]

Everybody bags J* for cadets then Virgin announces them and its hailed as a beginning of safety?

Personally, I don't have an issue with cadets in general. In a former life I used to train them, & as a result many of my ill-informed prejudices against them were knocked on the head. What I initially thought were a bunch of snotty-nosed, high school whiz-kids who'd been afforded a career fast-track opportunity without ever getting their hands dirty in the real world, were in fact (for the most part) a group of very mature, hard-working young men & women who were very self-conscious of their position in the food chain, & very motivated to get it right & not stuff up. Sure, there were the occasional bad apples, as with any group, but many of them surprised me with their intellect, skill & ability, in spite of lacking the experience. In saying that, I'm not trying to shoot down the GA veterans who've done the hard yards & are just as deserving of an opportunity as anyone else, but I was one who used to be very anti-cadet - until I was forced to work with them, & it just so happens some of them proved to be outstanding pilots.

But getting back to the topic: I don't think there is as much of an issue with the J* cadets, as there is an issue with the T&C's & downright devious methods J* management (& their partners in crime) have gone about implementing the scheme in the first place.

[Oldmate]

Any idea who is being interviewed "in camera" at the moment?

[The Kelpie]

Bunglerat

Neither do I have a problem with cadets.

What I do have a problem with is these schemes are being introduced in Australia for the wrong reasons. Oxford Aviation Academy are at the centre of it!!

I could tell you stories about that place that would make you hair curl however it seems that the Jetstar Culture has rubbed off on them and the Instructors are all too **** scared to say anything due to being in fear of their jobs.

Instructors: It is not dobbing in in the adult world and it is called being responsible. If you guys won't make your concerns known to those that can make a difference either internally of to CASA then please explain how an airline would consider that you would speak up to the captain when you are in the RHS and he is texting on a 700ft final in an A320?

There are real safety issues there!!

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[QAN_Shareholder]

Xcel

How about the highest paid management team for any airline in the world

Where does this claim come from?

I don't know if Delta is highest but I looked there first - CEO was paid US$8.4m in 2009 (latest period disclosed), and US$17.4m in 2008. Delta's 5 highest paid executives received US$19m in 2009.

From Qantas annual report, for the 8 executives disclosed total remuneration was A$12.6m in 2010 and A$7.9m in 2009.

[Sarcs]

CASA I believe!!!!:ugh:

[The Kelpie]

Alex M

PM me and tell me why it interests you?

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[Stalins ugly Brother]

The issue is not the cadets themselves,

It is the blood sucking, low breed, unscrupulous execs that have identified these cadet programs as a tool to save money based on training costs and charging for training.

And guess what, in a few years they will identify cost savings within the program until eventually the cadet will graduate with a handshake, a wink and a bill and sent off to pole around 200+ unsuspecting victims while these fat cats walk with their big bonus.

This is the problem.




Metroshmuker,

Jetstar itself is not the issue, domestically it was a stroke of genius to a certain degree, until it canabilised the groups premium market.
The problem is the Jetsaring of a business that dosen't fit that type of business model. :ugh:

[Stalins ugly Brother]

Qan,

I don't doubt the figures you are quoting are those within the report.

However, can you tell me where Geoff Dixons $10mill payout figure is disclosed? It should be there in the exec remuneration figures should it not?
He was an Exec after all and it was an Exec payout.

Maybe it is just me who is missing it??

[John Citizen]

I'd love to see them turn a full Jumbo in 40 minutes :confused:

I agree.

Any experienced B747 pilot who flies pax in and out of Singapore/Changi like to elaborate please.

[The Kelpie]

Its on again!!!

edit: Look I didn't quite get it all but it seems the senators wanted to get on the record (after a discussion with CASA 'in camera' I would imagine) that the Jetstar Cadet programme hasn't been run in accordance with the CASA approval and there may be some suggestion of foul play somewhere.

CASA are looking into how the changes came about!!!

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[Mr. Hat]

Plenty infact thousands of experienced airline, military, regional and ga pilots out there and we need cadets? Right ok...

I guess that will be the end of GA. Good luck to the piston operators out there. If you can't make it in to any of the cadetships it means you will never fly for an airline and thus have the potential to make a reasonable wage. So who in their right mind would fork out 80k to go and fly a death trap in the bush?

Have a mate thats a captain on a Q400 and he has an interesting/insightful point of view on the matter of his copilot 200 hr cadets.

I love the gloss of it all. If we all pat each other on the back its going to be ok isn't it..

[Stalins ugly Brother]

When are Dumb and Dumber going to return and face the music at the senate inquiry? It is disgusting that these individuals have this amount of contempt for a parliamentary inquiry, the laws of the land and its people.
Its a slap in the face to the australian traveling community as a whole.

[c173]

when is the next hearing?

[QAN_Shareholder]

Stalin,

However, can you tell me where Geoff Dixons $10mill payout figure is disclosed? It should be there in the exec remuneration figures should it not?
He was an Exec after all and it was an Exec payout.


Fair comment, my figure for 2009 was wrong, only related to continuing execs. But I don't think it is possible to make the claim of highest paid based on 2010 figures.

Dixon's contract was outrageous whether Clifford would ever sanction anything similar remains to be seen, but to date the indications are better.

[Dropt McGutz]

Wasn't Dixon's payout at the same time some 75 pilots faced retrenchments unless the pilots could find savings of $8 million which they did by taking leave and working reduced hours? Is it any wonder none of the staff are engaged?

[air command]

Take a read of Sandiland's latest post with his take on Virgin's appearance at the enquiry. Think JB has hung AJ/BB out to dry.... nice work John ! What does it all mean for Pacific Blue though??

[mcgrath50]

edit: Look I didn't quite get it all but it seems the senators wanted to get on the record (after a discussion with CASA 'in camera' I would imagine) that the Jetstar Cadet programme hasn't been run in accordance with the CASA approval and there may be some suggestion of foul play somewhere.


Damn! I missed it can you please provide a quick summary?

[airtags]

Kelpie - correct and perhaps one or two other issues for CASA to respond to as a result of 'other' testimony.

Senator Zen is definately on the chase with CASA - Jumping ahead, I strongly suspect the Committee's outcomes will see the Minister having to discuss making a few changes not least articulating what the CASA acronym actually stands for.

AT

[The Kelpie]

Another piece of excellent journalism from Ben. I just wish mainstream media would catch on.


Virgin Blue flies the flag at Senate inquiry (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2011/03/18/virgin-blue-flies-the-flag-at-senate-inquiry/)

March 18, 2011 – 3:34 pm, by Ben Sandilands (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/author/bensandilands/)


There have been several major disclosures at the Senate inquiry into pilot training and airline safety standards this afternoon.
For continuity this report about the morning session, which has already appeared in Crikey, precedes those reports which will be posted later today.
This morning, when Qantas and Jetstar failed to show up as expected for a Senate inquiry public hearing into pilot training and safety standards former Qantas executive GM and now Virgin Virgin CEO John Borghetti wrapped the group in the Australian flag and promised more local jobs and the reduction of existing off-shore activity where possible.
It was a classic ambush. All that was missing was the Virgin Blue Children’s Choir springing to its feet in the back of the committee room to sing “We’ll always call Australia home.”
On February 25 the Senators were fiercely offended by a Borghetti no show when a token Virgin Blue team sat as shame faced and unresponsive before the inquiry as a bunch of Tokyo Electric executives at a nuclear disaster press conference.
But not this morning. Borghetti said he was reviewing the small amount of work done off shore in the Virgin Blue group’s operations (which includes a Pacific Blue division based in New Zealand) with a view to maximizing Australian jobs.
He announced high level negotiations with Skywest Airlines of WA to set up a cadet pilot program which would, unlike the Jetstar NZ but-working-in-Australia scheme, be based in Australia, paid in Australian dollars, and pay Australian taxes and the superannuation levy.
Borghetti also pledged support for the legislation proposed by independent Senator Nick Xenophon, strengthening the ability of pilots and airline staff to report safety infringements and other related concerns to the authorities, which is also being considered under the inquiry’s terms of reference.
It has been opposed by Qantas and Jetstar and just about everyone else who has been asked the question.
Borghetti and his team of senior executives and flight standards, went out of their way to lay claim to setting higher safety and training standards than required for compliance with the regulatory minimums.
The group’s chief pilot, Stuart Aggs, said compliance was regarded as a consequence of meeting the much higher standards Virgin Blue insisted upon.
The Senate committee is considering whether or not a minimum of 1500 hours actual flying experience should be compulsory for the recruitment of a pilot into the right hand or first officer seat of a mainline jet airliner.
Aggs said he could not recall anyone with less than this amount of real hands on flying experience getting a first officer position in the group, even though the minimum it had set was 1000 hours including 500 hours in multi-engined aircraft, well above the legal minimum of 150 hours that Jetstar saw as acceptable.
The group’s chief pilot said, “We have a green-on-green rule. We do not allow low hours new first officers by our definition to fly with recently promoted captains with low hours as a captain.
“Our risk management doesn’t allow that to happen.”
Both Borghetti and Aggs said that in general terms, the pilot training industry on its own did not produce graduates with sufficient skills to occupy the right hand seat of a Virgin Blue jet. It was considered essential to put such inexperienced pilots through specially tailored Virgin Blue training programs, or to extensively augment their ‘vanilla’ training if they were external candidates.
All of which left the controversial testimony given by Qantas CEO Alan Joyce and Jetstar Group CEO Bruce Buchanan, on February 25, in relation to training and safety matters all the more in need of further explanation by both men by a group of senators very keen to hear from them again.
It is not known when Joyce and Buchanan will be available again. They were too busy to attend today.

[The Kelpie]

McGrath

Seemed to be an issue on basing. I think what was discussed was that CASA approved cadets at MEL SYD and SEQ. Someone changed the wording of the approval. If this was the approval why were JQ dishing out NZ employment Contracts??

Otherwise what I have posted is the summary.

It was very short (less than 5 mins) but it seemed that the Senators were very keen to get the information on the Hansard record as it had obviously been discussed during the period of 'in camera' evidence.

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[The Kelpie]

Clearly Mr Dolan there is something wrong if your organisation put this in the filing tray without investigation!!


Jetstar pilots ‘feared they would die’

March 18, 2011 – 4:28 pm, by Ben Sandilands (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/author/bensandilands/)


The pilots of a Jetstar wide bodied A330-200 flight leaving Darwin late last October thought they were going to die when the jet was caught in a severe storm down draft according to testimony from the Richard Woodward, Vice President of the Australian and International Pilots Association to the Senate inquiry into pilot training and airline safety this afternoon.
Details of the incident caught the chief commissioner of the ATSB, Martin Dolan, by surprise as he sat in the committee room waiting to appear with CASA before the inquiry .
The ATSB has previously decided not to investigate the incident after it had been reported to it, but Dolan conceded after hearing Woodward that the safety investigator had made that decision without interviewing either pilot.
Woodward said the incident which occurred in severe weather could have resulted in a hull loss and raised some very relevant issues about the quality of storm weather information available to pilots at the airport where traffic is under RAAF control.
According to AIPA the pilots held their flight at the end of the runway for ten minutes trying all channels to try and get better information about the extent and severity of the supercell over the airport.
Once airborne they hit the down draft close to the ground and were unable to gain altitude for some period. “I spoke to both of them and they told me they thought they were going to die”, Woodward said.
“Did the (military) controllers have access to the necessary data? I suspect the answer is ‘No’,” Woodward said.
Asked about the incident by the inquiry, Dolan said “I intend to ask for more information to verify the information on which we acted in not pursuing an inquiry.”
He said “We did not receive information that there was not a positive rate of climb.”
Asked if the ATSB had interviewed the pilots, Dolan replied ‘No.’
In fact there was a positive rate of climb, but it was severely degraded.
Plane Talking has learned that immediately after taking off at a rate of climb of 2000 feet per minute the climb rate fell to only 200 feet per minute when the jet was down to 180 feet above the ground in an incident last all of 12 seconds.
The incident was raised by AIPA over its concerns that pilots are not heard when they need to be heard in relation to serious safety issues

[The Kelpie]

Critical question: Did the Jetstar Cadets themselves and their Training Captains, and for that matter all operational / rostering employees know of, or aware of the full range of operational restrictions (as in the approval from CASA) in the use of a Cadet Pilot? Perhaps you could take that one Mr Rindfleish (I would give you you proper title but I do not feel you are befitting of it!)?

I ask the question because these would have had to have been incorporated into their Operations Manual (OM1)

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[Sunfish]

I have the distinct feeling that AJ and BB, probably backed by the Board, decided that QF's lobbying power in Canberra was sufficient to frustrate anything Xenophon and the Senate might wish to do.

This is the "too big to be allowed to fail" strategy.

My second distinct feeling is that QF is going to unleash a major assault on the Qantas Sale Act.

The strategy for changing that is akin to the story about the boy convicted of murdering both his parents and about to be sentenced; he threw himself on the mercy of the Court because he was an orphan.

[mcgrath50]

Trust me when I say that having 200 hours from BFTs, 2FTs and your operational conversion, and 200 hours from Oxford Aviation Academy is not the same thing!

Compare apples with apples.

[PCFlyer]

DominicYPGV,
I agree with you ... BUT

The way I see todays airline cadet programs is purely another revenue stream. Whether it be overpriced training (because these cadets are all self funded), reduced pay because they are cadets, paying that reduced pay in some overseas currency, avoiding IR laws, or sidestepping superannuation payments, someone is always profiting.

I always thought the purpose of cadet programs was to supplement the normal intake of more experienced pilots, not anymore!

Maybe thats why they are called schemes, or should that be shams.....