MEPR - Seneca Advice

[VFR Transit]

I am just about to embark on the MEP Class Rating using a Piper Seneca 1 (PA34) and would like to get some advice on the course and any tips from other pilots who operate or have operated the Seneca 1.

My experience is Mainly of the PA28 family 140hp to 180hp including the Arrow, if anyone could offer some advice that would be great.

Thanks
VFR

[bingofuel]

With both engines running it will be just like a big single.

Just remember losing 50% of the engiines will lose you about 80% of the performance, and this is when the fun starts.

Never flown a seneca 1 but I will assume that losing an engine it might just remain level gear and flaps up, so with gear or flap extended it will be going down even at best single engine climb speed. So listen to your instructor and enjoy the fun.

Oh and maybe do some exercises to build up your thigh muscles you will be needing them!

[Fuji Abound]

I am no expert with a grand total of 15 hours on the 1.

As you probably know the aileron rudder link is a little unusual and severly limits the recommended xwind - which rather defeats one of the objects of flying a twin. That said, I thought it landed pretty well in more than the recommended xwind but I didnt have the chance to explore the limits I would actually be comfortable with. I gather there are some really bad examples around but hopefully the one you will be flying is not. The single engine performance feels about the same as a 42 - it will certainly go up on one engine assuming reasonably normal conditions.

I would guess a good aircraft for your MEP as it is at least a "proper" twin but I wouldnt buy one for all sorts of other reasons.

You may find the first few hours in a twin a big step up - I know I did. I think that is normal unless you are a natural Sky God. All I can say is make sure you learn the cockpit inside out (know where everything is) and also make sure you learn ALL speeds / power settings. It will make the flying so much easier because to start with a lot more seems to be happening, the scenery will be moving more quickly and the last thing you need is to find you are struggling to remember the power settings.

Good luck!

[Spendid Cruiser]

If you're used to the Arrow then you you're going to feel at home. The Seneca 1 is easier to operate than the later turbo normalised variants. Unless you flew the turbo Arrow perhaps 25"/2500rpm for climb and 23"/2400rpm cruise sounds familiar?

The OEI performance is dismal so don't go near any hills :}

[VFR Transit]

Thanks for the feedback so far :O

I must admit that it will be a good fun bit of flying but understand that everything happens that little bit quicker. I have the Thom (Dave Robson) MEP book along with CAP601 to read through, and now have a Seneca 1 POH on PDF to look over too.

I would still like some feedback from those who fly or flew this type on a regular basis.

VFR

[Fuji Abound]

VFR Transit

OK, the other thing you REALLY need, is the usual plastic laminated card with all the operational and performance settings on it.

Your club / school will almost certainly have one.

Learn it by heart, it will make an amazing difference to your MEP.

You will be back to circuit bashing, and you will be dealing with flaps, gear, power settings, prop. sync etc so make sure you know what to do, where and when in the circuit. That, and the asy. work, are really the only challenging parts of flying multis, aside from getting use to the scenery going past quicker in the cruise.

Sorry to repeat myself but I hope it is worth it because it will make doing your MEP so much more straight forward.

[VFR Transit]

Thanks Fuji

VFR

[Raven1972]

I agree with Fuji, Make sure that you know your checks inside out (but then that goes for all aircraft) coz its an expensive place to make mistakes and learn stuff that you should know on the ground...
As one who's flown Seminoles as well I preferred the Seneca it has more power but then that also contributed to problems getting used to the throttle controls...they are very sensitive and you have to take into account the lag on the Turbo but overall you'll enjoy the seneca. She's not as bad as the seminole SE and has a better SE climb rate but you may have to drop the power on the good engine to make sure you can maintain lateral direction control.
BBut as long as you keep the MAP below 40 you're grand...
Enjoy!!:ok:

[VFR Transit]

Thats great Raven1972.

Thanks for the info.
VFR

[Spendid Cruiser]

The Seneca 1 is normally aspirated and won't be much quicker than an Arrow in practice. The later variants are turbo normalised and more complex.

[Tinstaafl]

Slight correction: The later variants are turbocharged, providing greater-than-sea levl manifold pressure ie boost. Turbonormalising is a form of turbocharging that only maintains SL pressure at altitude.

Learn the immediate action engine failure drills until you start mumbling them in your sleep. You don't have to rush them when they're used - better a slightly slower pace to make sure you don't pull the wrong knob - but you *do* have to know them.

The Seneca is a Part 23 light multi <6000lb MTOW and Vs<61 kts so +ve climb performance on one engine was not required. Only that what ever performance it has "...be determined". That determination could be downhill. Further, like all other light twins, whatever best climb (or slowest descent) performance it has when asymmetric is only under a very limited set of conditions to minimise drag. Fail to meet those specs. and you can kiss any expectation of meeting book performance out the window. *Don't* get into the mindset that the 2nd engine will always enable you to continue flying!

A failed engine also adds a higher probability of losing control due to the asymmetric thrust. Conditions that are beneficial to better single engine performance act opposite to conditions that provide better single engine control and vica versa. Don't confuse asymmetric *control* with asymmetric *performance*. Further to that, some instructors have been known to teach that best single engine performance will be at 5 deg angle of bank (because Minimum Conrol Speed is determined with up to 5 deg bank). This is not the case. 5 deg bank is solely concerned with *control*. Best asymmetric performance will typically be at 2-3 deg bank.

Remember *control* is more important than *performance*. You can survive a crash that hits the ground under control Chances are you won't survive an out of control cartwheel into the ground.

The Seneca is a simple aircraft. Seneca 1 particularly. Like others have said, if you're flown an Arrows or a Lance you'll feel at home fairly quickly.

Some bits & pieces:

* Each wheel hanging out is worth about an inch of manifold pressure to maintain a descent profile. When the wheels go out add about 3" MP to maintain the current profile.

* Always check the nose locker door is locked before getting in the aircraft no matter how sure you are that the door was closed. It's tempting to close the rear door after loading pax/boxes & walk the shorter path around the tail so you can enter. Don't. Take the the longer way around the wings so you can check the nose locker door. If it's not closed it will fly open just as you rotate and can separate from the airframe. It's embarassing & a poor showing of one's usual care & attention. Trust me on this one... :ouch:

Might think of more later.

[Spendid Cruiser]

Slight correction: The later variants are turbocharged, providing greater-than-sea levl manifold pressure ie boost. Turbonormalising is a form of turbocharging that only maintains SL pressure at altitude.
I stand suitably corrected sir!

[SNS3Guppy]

Always check the nose locker door is locked before getting in the aircraft no matter how sure you are that the door was closed. It's tempting to close the rear door after loading pax/boxes & walk the shorter path around the tail so you can enter. Don't. Take the the longer way around the wings so you can check the nose locker door. If it's not closed it will fly open just as you rotate and can separate from the airframe. It's embarassing & a poor showing of one's usual care & attention. Trust me on this one...

I've had the nose baggage door open twice, while rolling out in the Seneca II. At the time, my habit had been to do a final walk around and ensure the handle was rotated closed (we put red paint across the handle and door to make a visual check easier; one can tell immediately if the handle is lined up). I always physically checked it too. I've had it open twice; I developed the habit of always ensuring the door was locked as well as the handle closed.

I'm not familiar with the performance in the Seneca I, but have spent a lot of time tooling around in Seneca II's; it's one of the few light twins that does quite well on one engine; it will hold 8,000 fairly well, loaded, on one engine.

[Fuji Abound]

SNS3GUPPY

I agree with regard to the baggage doors. In fact I have never understood why anyone would leave the doors unlocked. It is exactly the same on most twins. While I have not heard of the two nose doors on a 42 coming unlatched even on such a modern design I would not set off without securing both doors locked.

[Pace]

VFR

I have a lot of time on Senecas mainly 5 but also 4,3,2 and a couple of flights on a 1.
The 1 is a very old bird and it shows in the odd placement of switches.
Performance in the 1 as far as I remember was very poor the aircraft being underpowered.
As will all the Senecas make sure you trim well back before landing to stop you landing flat or even worse nose wheel first.
The Seneca porpoise is well known and many have lost the nosewheel that way.
No trailing link so soft landings are hard to come by.
Apart from that they share an old wing design which is draggy but gives a lot of lift. The aircraft is docile and will give plenty of warning.
Surprised there are still 1s being used for training? Hope you have a really cheap deal on the 1?
Remember too the engines are counter rotating which will make life a bit easier (pretty sure the 1 was too?)

Pace

[VFR Transit]

Thanks for the advice Pace but what do you call a good deal on a Seneca 1 then?? ;)
Good deal and aviation should not be mixed :ok:

Thanks
VFR

[Pace]

For me to fly a Seneca 1 it would have to be very cheap :E There are scores of Seneca 2s and 3s around which are also old but much better machines.

Ok the 4 is a much more refined 3 with prettier cowls and lopresti scoops. The 5 is a different animal.

So go up in price through the models. 1 is well ? 1 :E

Pace

[Fuji Abound]

Pace is right but if it is only to do your MEP the 1 will work just fine. If, on the other hand, you are thinking of flying the same aircraft after your MEP I would think again unless it is an exceptional example.

Mind you even for the MEP part you will be sitting in the thing for at least 6 hours so if it is an old dog the price should be reflective. ;)

If they have something else reasonable for hire dont forget you will probably need a couple of hours to convert to the "new" type so money saved on the 1 will not necessarily be money saved in the long run but, on the other hand, you will have the experience of two different aircraft.

[tom_ace]

Good advice on this thread. Make sure you are thinking well ahead of the aircraft so that each action you make has already been planned and doesn't leave you rushing to keep up.
Same in any aircraft I suppose, but moving from trainer singles to a twin can be a bit daunting becuase of the increased speed.

[VFR Transit]

Fuji / Pace

The Complete course in the Seneca 1 is = £2,563 which is broken down to
6 Hours Dual @ £349.00
1 Hour Test @ £349.00
Written Exam @ £20.00
Flight Test Fee @ £100.00

I have no idea if this is fair or not? however I know that the aircraft I wish to use is a Seneca. I am located in Suffolk and to be honest there is not alot around these neck of the woods in the way of a Seneca.

VFR

[Fuji Abound]

Are those prices plus VAT - always worth not forgetting.

A quick check of the internet suggest you you could do the same course with all fees in an almsot new DA42 for £3K or an Aztruk for £4K - both considerably better aircraft.

I would not recommend the 42 unless you are only going to fly 42s.

I think this boils down to why you are doing an MEP. If you are going to rent the same aircraft afterwards (because that is all that is conveniently available) or because it is the only convenient aircraft at your local school then in my book convenience will win every time. I would not be driving an hour each way to fly a different aircraft - but others might.

If on the other hand your local airport has better twins to rent, and that is what you intend to do, you should train on the aircraft you intend to rent if at all possible.

6 hours is not a lot of time behind the wheel of a proper twin (like the Aztec). You will need time to be comfortable so you are far better staying with what you know for the first twenty hours or so.

You mention there is not a lot around in terms of other Senecas. Do you mean other twins as well or is there some reason you want to train on a Seneca?

In summary I dont think they are bargain basement prices but they are a little cheaper than most which doubtless reflects the aircraft being used.

However am afraid when it comes to fly twins forget the odd hundred here or there, you need to count in thousands.

[VFR Transit]

Hi Fuji,

Price do include VAT.

I am looking to fly the Seneca as I have flown alot of the PA28 family including the arrow, so to be honest I am going for more the home sweet home feel.

There is a Duchess at Connington that I could use but other than that there is nothing within an 1 hours drive that I could use.

There is a Seneca 1 based at Cambridge which is what I would look to hire on a regualr basis however they cannot provide the training itself, so that means needing to travel down to Stapleford to complete the MEP rating.

I have seen the DA42 and could use that but I would like to complete the MEP on the bog standard 3 lever twin rather than the one lever does all.

Thanks
VFR

[Fuji Abound]

I think the Seneca it is - that is what I would do.

If you can hire a 42 I would do so after you have your MEP - it is a really good aircraft (far better than the Seneca 1) and the conversion straight forward (other than the glass component which will take a little longer if you are new to glass).

[VFR Transit]

Hi Fuji,

I don't have anywhere local to hire a DA42 as Stapleford tend not to hire out their training fleet, however they do hire out their Cessna and Piper Singles for hour builders.

I will look to move over to the DA42 as this will be the aircraft of choice for the IR.

Not much in the way of twins in East Anglia although there is one at southend but again thats a Seneca 1 and expensive :hmm:

Thanks for the Advice.

VFR

[Pace]

VFR

I trained in a Baron 55 which was and is a fabulous machine with loads of character and delicious handling but you may want to stick coloured bits of tape on top of the levers. :rolleyes:They are back to front too which is a bit of a confuser.:confused:
I only had a couple of Seneca 1 flights and wasnt impressed but Fuji dont knock the Seneca as the later ones are not bad at all.
The Five will outclimb a malibu to 20 K and still shows 700 fpm going through 18K with 1200 to 1500 fpm low level. TAS at altitude is around 212 kts.
When you loose the donkey she will maintain over 16K on one which a lot of twins cannot do on two never mind one engine.
But a one ? think I would rather spend a bit more and get something better! unless they are literally giving it away.

Pace

[VFR Transit]

Hi Pace,

The problem I have is there is very little about in the way on Twins to hire let alone train on in my area, I guess if i wanted to travel into the london area then that would work out ok.

Stapleford is already an 1 hour 30 drive away from the house :ugh: so any further would be a holiday :)

I really am stuck with the choice of aircraft if I don't want to travel miles away :O

VFR

[SNS3Guppy]

The Complete course in the Seneca 1 is = £2,563 which is broken down to
6 Hours Dual @ £349.00
1 Hour Test @ £349.00
Written Exam @ £20.00
Flight Test Fee @ £100.00


Good gravy. You could probably fly to the US and make a holiday of it, and get your multi, for that price. Ouch.

[Pace]

£350 per hour for a Seneca 1 is daylight robbery :ugh: take Guppies advice take a break in the USA, get some sun and a decent aircraft.

Pace

[Fuji Abound]

A Seneca 1 in Florida is about 2/3rds the price - no longer as cheap as it once was. I am afraid there wouldnt be a lot of change by going State side andI have hired some truly dreadful aircraft in America. (I have also hired some very good ones ;)).

[VFR Transit]

Morning Chaps

I looked at the option of the USA based on how cheap it used to be but Fuji hit the nail on the head in terms of it is no longer a cheap option, don't get me wrong the course in a PA44 at EASA (OBA) is £1,795.

The whole USA route needs to be looked at with flights, Accomodation & spends not forgetting the Sevis & TSA fees :ugh:

I will have a look around the london area and see what's about in terms of aircraft and rates, might even make a long weekend of it in the smoke.

Thanks again for the advice.

VFR

[CJ Driver]

The Seneca 1 was comically underpowered - it makes almost any other twin (including the Seneca 2 and after) look like a Mach 3 rocket ship. On the other hand, if it is there and available, and you are just doing the rating, it's a twin.

I was checked out in a Seneca 1 when I had logged plenty of time in other twins, including Cessna 310, Duchess, and Baron. My checkout was in the southern USA, and although we were near sea level, the outside air temperature was 90F. With just myself in the left seat, and an experienced Seneca 1 pilot on the right, (no payload) we set off down the runway, both engines at full power. With what felt like a mile of concrete behind us, it only just staggered into the air. It was quite clear to me that something was horribly wrong, so with a good chunk of runway still in front, I started to close the throttles to abandon the takeoff. My colleague on the right was cracking up with laughter at the terror in my eyes: "No man", he said, "this is it! This is as good as it gets!" And so it was that we climbed into the hot sunshine, on both engines, at about 200 fpm.

At least the Seneca 1 will teach you why a piston twin is NOT a performance A aircraft.

If you are going to rent a twin to travel around in, take another look at that Duchess. Similar systems to the Seneca 1, but an infinitely nicer aircraft.