VFR On Top

[Fuji Abound]

I know for a PPL without ratings VFR on top of an under cast is prohibited in the UK but has I think always been permitted in France for French PPlers.(obviously so long as the descent is not IMC). This was in the days of our respective national licenses. Of course all new licenses here and in France are JAA licenses. I am therefore intrigued as to whether we Brits are now permitted to fly VFR on top in France, whether the French continue to remain able to do so, or whether we have managed to embody some restrictions in our ANO that cunningly restrict a JAA license issued in the UK to prohibit VFR on top. If not, does it make any difference if you have not converted your old national license to a JAA one?

If the restriction is in place so much presumably for a set of common regulations, always assuming the flying syllabus for a JAA PPL in France is much the same as here. Is this yet another JAA anomaly or are the French just better at navigation than us?

Is it too much to hope that our national IMC rating should be recognised in Europe. There was talk of this.

[Aussie Andy]

Hi Fuji,

I don't know the answer - VFR on top was discussed in one of the mags this month (Flyer) but I don't think it addressed whether or how JAA licenses changed things. [I think they haven't, and that we are restricted to "in sight of the surface" at all times if we hold a UK issued JAA PPL.]

But what I'd like to know from anyone who's done it is: how safe/dangerous is it to tyravel VFR on top anyway?

From the perspective of someone without an IMC, the thought of relying on a hole in the clouds for a let-down at the destination is a bit of a worry. I guess you have to be extra careful when assessing the forecast for the destination!

There have been a few horror stories published - I recall several from the US, and a mate of mine based in Connecticut once confessed to me that he had once nearly come to grief this way in his Vari-Eze... the destination wasn't good, so he turned back to land at another point he had overflown some way back, but when he got there it was all under cloud. He descended over a nearby lake - using GPS to fix position - and had to avoid a mast on the lake-shore. It worked out OK, but he fairly sh&t himself, and was a bit close for comfort to the mast when he broke cloud only 1000' or so above the lake, then was able to land at the airport on the shoreline.

So while it sounds like a privelege I would like to have, I wonder how they get on with it in practice e.g. in Northern France?

Andy

[PhilD]

The answer is the same as the one that is always given when this question is raised (about weekly). Your CAA issued licence is governed by the ANO wherever you fly. So the French version of the ANO might let them fly VFR on top, but not you.

Sorry

See http://www.higherplane.flyer.co.uk/faq.htm no 5

[Fuji Abound]

Ah well your weeks must be longer than mine!

I have not previously seen this specific answer given. Makes me wonder quite how it all works legally as I do not have a copy of the ANO to hand. Presumably the JAA establishes the JAA privileges of the PPL or maybe it is just the syllabus. Presumably also the national authorities then seek to enact national legislation to define or modify the JAA privileges.

As to whether it is safe I personally agree with the previous correspondent - flying VFR on top without an IMC or IR is potentially courting disaster. However, with even an IMC we Brits cannot legally fly "on top" in France. It would be useful to at least have this privilege had our national authority not felt otherwise. Maybe the answer is to seek recognition of the IMC in Europe.

Still seems strange to me that we sign up to a piece of legislation on the premise it provides common mutuality throughout Europe (which makes sense) and then seek to impose national differences whatever the virtues or disadvantages.

[AC-DC]

The UK ANO restricts us to 3000m Vis, in sight of the ground etc . If you have an IMC than you can fly on top and your Vis minima is down to 1500m.
A French PPL can fly on top and within 1500m vis without IMC. As the IMC is not recognized outside the UK, the minute you get out of UK airspace you are illigal to fly on top or in vis<1500m.
Oh I forgot, our French friends can. :mad:

[ 22 November 2001: Message edited by: AC-DC ]

[rolling circle]

The JAA does not determine the privileges of its licences, that is a matter (one of the few remaining) on which national governments in europe legislate.

What your UK issued JAA licence entitles you to do (wherever in the world you fly) is detailed in the Air Navigation Order 2000 which, as a Statutory Instrument (SI 2000 No.1562), is the law of the land. Since ignorance of the law is not a defence in court, it might be wise to invest in/borrow/steal a copy and find out just what is legal and, more importantly, what is not.

[SKYYACHT]

Just a thought ladies and gentlemen,

As I understand it, to be VFR you must be in sight of the ground. In the UK it is only possible to be VMC on top. Any thoughts?

Tailwinds

[rolling circle]

SKYYACHT - Not true! One may elect to fly under the Visual Flight Rules (VFR) at any time that one is in Visual Meteorological Conditions (VMC) provided that VFR flight is permitted in the prevailing Class of airspace.

[Fuji Abound]

So let me summarise

We now have a European wide JAA license

but

each national authority decides the limitiations applicable to this license.

I know it has been said before, probably weekly, but perhaps we should have stuck with our national license - or maybe we did.

[SKYYACHT]

Rolling Circle, I sit corrected, and suitable abashed.....My only excuse - too many beers!

Tailwinds

PS - Reminds me of the adage to keep quiet and have everyone think you are an idiot, Rather than open thy gob, and leave them in no doubt!

[englishal]

This again sums up the JAA and the CAA ! Why should our French brethren get extra privileges when they hold the same licence ! Its a bunch of b**locks if you ask me, and makes a complete mockery of the entire JAA system. Next you'll be telling me that they can fly at night becasue they don't need a night rating...oops sorry 'qualification'...Why isn't the IMC therefore part of the JAA Licence...ie. By passing the IMC you get the IMC privileges but as part of your JAR licence and not a seperate CAA thing. Couldn't the ANO be ammended to reflect this, seeing as each national government is reponsible for what your licence allows ???????????

[Crowe]

sorry to confuse things further, but what if you're flying a French-reg plane?

Presumably then you get French JAR PPL priveleges, in the same way that a UK PPL with an FAA IR can fly full IFR (including incontrolled airspace) in an N-reg plane...

Anyone know about this? - I may be hiring a plane in France next year, (I have PPL/IMC), so being able to go on top of cloud, as I can here, would be great.

[foghorn]

englishal,

It's worse than that - night VFR is allowed in some JAA countries, night VFR is banned in others where you must fly IFR and have an IR.

In the UK we have the loophole that you are allowed to fly at night under IFR in VMC with just a night rating!

foggy.

[englishal]

What about if you hold an ICAO IR (ie FAA). Do the French or any other JAR state allow any extra priviliges (ie the CAA will issue IMC rating)...

Cheers!

[rolling circle]

Just to re-iterate - If you are flying an aircraft on the basis of your UK issued JAA PPL (or, indeed, UK national PPL), the privileges of that licence are detailed in the ANO. This applies no matter where in the world you are flying nor in what state the aircraft is registered. If, however, your UK issued PPL has been validated in another state (or 'converted' if you speak american) then it is as though you held a licence issued by that state and the privileges are those laid down in the validating state's legislation.

The JAA PPL, and CPL for that matter, are VFR licences. The privileges do not entitle the holder to fly in a visibility of less than 3km or out of sight of the surface. The privileges of a CPL are, essentially, those of a PPL with night qualification (leaving aside the matters of remuneration and public transport).

In order to fly IFR it is necessary to hold an Instrument Rating or (in the UK only) an IMC rating. However, the IMC rating is not recognised by any other country and, therefore, its privileges do not extend outside UK airspace. No credit will be given for holding a FAA Instrument Rating in any JAA member state other than the UK as there is no equivalent to the IMC rating.

[PhilD]

I thought that if you convert your JAA licence to FAA, and get an FAA IR you will abe able to: (a) get an automatic IMC rating from the CAA to fly G reg planes in IMC in the UK FIR and (b) be entitled to exercise the priviliges of your FAA IR in N reg planes anywhere in the world.

If so, this sounds like a sensible approach to getting a proper instrument rating without the roadblocks put in place by the JAA/CAA

[Fuji Abound]

So to add to the confusion presumably the French will validate your JAA / CAA license for a JAA / French license granting you the full priviliges of a JAA / French license.

I guess you can then fly French aircraft applying their VFR ANO rules - but G reg. aircraft?

Strange in all this that it is the same pilot, same training, same experience, same aircraft, same community, but different rules.

I suppose it is a sort of opt in, opt out.

[englishal]

Seems like the best solution is get the FAA PPL / CPL / IR and get an N reg plane. At least then you'll know where you stand !....forget JAA !

[rolling circle]

PhilD - The validation certificate you get from the FAA states:

XIII LIMITATIONS

Issued on the basis of and valid only when accompanied by United Kingdom pilot license number(s) xxxxxxx. All limitations and restrictions on the United Kingdom pilot license apply.

That being the case, you cannot apply a FAA IR to a UK licence. You can, however, gain a FAA licence and apply a FAA IR to it and that will get you an IMC rating attached to your UK issued PPL.

Fuji Abound - The french do not need to validate a JAA licence issued in the UK. By definition, a JAA licence issued in the UK is valid throughout the member states of the JAA, without formality. Except, of course, if the training for that licence has been conducted outside of the JAA (e.g. USA) in which case the licence has not been issued in accordance with the requirements of JAR-FCL and any member state (e.g. france) may decide not to recognise it.

If, however, your UK national PPL is validated by the DGAC then the priveleges are as laid down in french law.

englishal - You may think that, I could not possibly comment!

[englishal]

...or fly IFR in an N Reg plane ANYWHERE in the world with the FAA IR.......Even on the FAA Licence issued on the basis of the JAA licence so long as you have passed the FAA IR....

[ 27 November 2001: Message edited by: englishal ]

[Odi]

I apologise for butting in, but there does appear to be a major confusion between VFR and VMC as well as between IFR and IMC. I'm not a pilot so I do not have the fine detailed knowledge of your PPL. As far as I understand it (and I apologise if I am totally wrong) the basic PPL allows you to fly in conditions that are clear of cloud and in sight of the surface (with a forward vis of [I assume] 5km). These just happen to be the Visual Flight Rules for an aircraft with a filed airspeed of <140kts and below 3000'.

In legal terms (which I accept are not necessarily the same as your licence priveleges):-

Anybody can fly IFR as long as you remain in VMC.

You can fly IFR in VMC, but you can't fly VFR in IMC.

Don't confuse the flight rules that you are flying under with the met conditions you are flying in. One of the more irritating aspects of being an ATCO is asking a pilot his flight rules (to establish the services we can offer and to know the level of separation we have to apply) and then getting the response "G-CD is currently VMC."

Don't forget you can ask for a radar advisory service (RAS) whilst flying in VMC as long as you are flying under the instrument flight rules (ie IFR). However, you may be given vectors that you will not be able to accept (eg they will take you into cloud) if you are restricted to remaining clear of cloud/in sight of the suface, so defeating the object of the RAS in the first place.

[A and C]

One licence but umpteen sets of restrictions its a just a beanfeast for the burocrats !

Thanks to this JAA thing i now have to do two OPC checks and two IR renewals each year insted of one.

My aircraft is subject to a bunch of CAA additional AD,s most of them vast over reactions.

Perhaps it is time to pull down the union jack raise the stars and stripes take the FAA aircraft maintenance exam and change my pprune name to A and P.

[ 02 December 2001: Message edited by: A and C ]

[englishal]

Although anyone can fly IFR in VMC (outside of controlled airspace), I refer to IFR to mean someone with an instrument rating, on an IFR flight plan, who can comply with ATC instructions.

Cheers

[rolling circle]

It would seem that the old misunderstang still exists between VMC/IMC and VFR/IFR.

To clarify:

One may elect to fly under the Instrument Flight Rules (IFR) or under the Visual Flight Rules (VFR) provided that one is flying in Visual Meteorological Conditions(VMC). However, if one is flying in Instrument Meteorological Conditions (IMC) one has no option but to fly under the Instrument Flight Rules (IFR).

The specific rules relating to flight under IFR and VFR are, of course, laid down in CAP 393 - The Air Navigation Order and Rules of the Air. But you knew that, didn't you??

[Odi]

englishal:

Although anyone can fly IFR in VMC (outside of controlled airspace), I refer to IFR to mean someone with an instrument rating, on an IFR flight plan, who can comply with ATC instructions.

Its just that sort of reference that causes the misunderstanding of IFR/IMC and VFR/VMC.

[englishal]

Odi....No misuderstanding at all...you cannot fly IFR in IMC if your licence prohibits it (no IR or IMC). You can however fly IFR in VMC without an IR / IMC as you are actually still VFR. If you hold an IR or IMC you can fly IFR in IMC or VMC.

VFR = Visual flight rules
IFR = instrument flight rules
VMC = Visual Met conditions
IMC = Instrument Met conditions

Normally you don't get people wihout an IR or IMC filing IFR.

[twistedenginestarter]

Although English Al is strictly wrong, he does have a point. You can't really fly in IFR unless you have a rating. You can go through the motions but if you have to avoid clouds then that's a VFR rule so you're just pretending really.

Anyway you should all get at least an IMC Rating. They're only £1k in Florida, so no excuse.

[vheijens]

My question is: Why the hell would you fly VFR on top?

If you're VFR on top the only way to navigate is dead reconing. I don't think many pilots will be succesfull navigate 300nm without propper verification. Ok, you can use your radio instruments, but they are not mandatory in VFR certified a/c.

If you realy want to fly above the clouds, get an IR. It is that easy.

[Fuji Abound]

TopFly - well I started this one so maybe I should answer the question.

The topic actually arose from my frustration that we Brits. with an IMC rating cannot legally fly "VFR on top" in Europe but our French counterparts with their basic JAA license can.

Ah well you may say why not do a PPL/IR. There is not a single training authority in the UK that provides the required course to cover the theoretical knowledge requirements, short of taking the full ATPL exams.

As too the general issue as too whether or not a pilot without some sort of IR should be flying "VFR on top", I would be inclined to agree that this might be unwise. However I gather this is not uncommon in the States or in Europe for that matter. Doubtless those with more experience than I might like to comment.

[bluskis]

Some of the reasons to fly VFR on top.
To fly at an appropriate level for track.
To fly at suitable height for good coms and navaid reception
To keep clear of cloud, turbulance and icing.
To avoid flying in clag and granite.
To cross the UK coastline when sea mists invade.
To avoid miliary, restricted, nuclear zones etc etc etc.
To avoid local traffic around airfields.
To fly more safely.
To obey the French rules. Aircraft must be not less than 3300 ft above ground when overflying towns.

This assumes suitable climb and descent are available.

On the 300nm trip mentioned it would be a very good day when there was no indifferent weather anywhere en route.

The use of dead reconing for navigation would be the least preferred method.