French strike - routing options ?

[anengineer]

Apologies for posting in the 'lions den' - being a mere passenger, but I would be grateful for any assistance with a quick question. I'm flying from AGP to BRS on Thurs and wondered about the routing. If the French strike goes ahead as expected, how would that likely affect flights from Southern Spain to the UK ? How far out into the Bay of Biscay does French authority extend ? What I'm trying to work out is whether it's likely an AGP-BRS flight could/would be diverted to skirt round the French sectors or if I should pack a large flask and some sarnies for an extended holiday in Malaga's departure lounge :)

[Sir Herbert Gussett]

Airways out of Brest's airspace an in Shanwick are being used though still take your flask as there could be delays with slots!

[Thunderbug]

French ATC industrial action has been going on for the last 10 days or so. It seems some sectors are worse than others, but the big national strike on the 23rd will cause some headaches. The airlines are getting quite practised with creative routes to destinations.

I flew to Sardinia recently. From London we went out at Dover, then through Western Germany (round that sticky out bit of Eastern France). South over Zurich and Milan, over the island of Elba and then south to Sardinia. On the return we did fly directly over France with not much of an ATC delay.

Going west of French airspace there is a route that follows Longitude W009 up through Oceanic airspace that is run by that nice Celtic bunch at Shanwick (Shannon / Prestwick). This brings you out near Lands End. The French navy are not helping by running the occasional missile firing exercise in that part of the Atlantic and closing the T9 route :rolleyes:

Good Luck
T'Bug :ok:

[flowman]

Half a million minutes of delay today thanks to our French colleagues :ok:. Let us know how you got on anengineer so we can see how this affects at least one member the travelling public.

[FatFlyer]

Long delays spain to uk yesterday evening.
If you are travelling AGP-BRS with easyJet, no HF radio on A319 so T9 route not available, not sure if ryanair have HF on 737s? but being a procedural service, limited capacity on T9 route.

[Lon More]

Thunderbug West(ern) Germany hasn't existed for a number of years, and it didn't start near Dover since 1944. A big thanks should be given to the staff at Maastricht UAC who make any routing out of the UK, in the UAS, possible. Unless you want to route via Copenhagen and Berlin. :\

[HPbleed]

Lon More: Stop being pedantic. Western Germany exists in the same way as Southern or Northern England. It's a region. Got delayed today by 2 hours going to IBZ from LGW. Then a 1 hour slot coming back. T9 routes were very congested, 2+ hours of delays, routing through France 2 or 3 hours of delays. Flying to France, 2 or 3 hours again.

[Oceanboy]

Hi T9 capacity is not normally regulated by Shanwick but by how much traffic the Santiago sector at Madrid can accept. Today some airlines were being creative in their flight planning and using Shanwick airspace but avoiding T9.

[wao]

This document may be of interest - a review of operating on the T9/T16 routes in Shanwick / Santa Maria OCA's - "Tango Routes in Shanwick OCA (http://worldairops.com/NAT/docs/NAT_W_T9T16routes.pdf)"

These routes are certainly seeing plenty of traffic this month with the French strike - busy times for the 5598 operators!

[anengineer]

Let us know how you got on anengineer so we can see how this affects at least one member the travelling public.

Well, I've just got home after a bit of a monster journey (motorway jams in Spain, then the UK !). The flight was scheduled for an 11:20 departure from AGP and was showing as delayed until 12:30 when we arrived at Malaga. We eventually left around 13:10 and routed west then up the coast of Portugal, out into the Atlantic for a bit then in over Lands End and up the Bristol Channel. (EZY6052 in case anyone here worked it.) The Captain didn't detail the route any more than that and my Tomtom wouldn't pick up any signal inside the A320 (didn't think it would, but it was worth a try !), so I can't be more specific. We had the advantage of a good tailwind, so made up the time lost by the detour. I don't know if we were ever routed via T9 - or if the A320 had a HF set.

As far as other flights out of AGP, I would say that about 15% of them were showing as cancelled and probably 60-70% of the European flights were delayed between 1 & 2 hrs. Also, not sure if it had anything to do with the French action, but the gate numbers were changing like a game of musical chairs ! - Every half hour or so another announcement was made that flight xyz was now departing from a different gate to previously displayed and hoardes of passengers would up and move !

So, we were relatively lucky overall, and the impact (from AGP anyway) of the French action was pretty minimal, thanks to the creative routings of the airlines and you good people !

If only you could do something about the traffic on the M4 too ;)

[flowman]

Thanks for the feedback, sounds like a bit of a nightmare. I would imagine the gates fill up with aeroplanes delayed on the ground meaning the inbounds have to be parked wherever is vacant. Something of a disaster for all concerned with plenty more to follow.

I really have no idea what the objective of all this is. Perhaps one of our French ATC colleagues could explain. Last I heard was that this is a protest about retirement age being increased to 62! There will not be too much sympathy anywhere in Europe for that cause but I stand to be corrected, I've been Ppruning too long to think I know anything about popular opinion!

[m99]

As far as other flights out of AGP, I would say that about 15% of them were showing as cancelled and probably 60-70% of the European flights were delayed between 1 & 2 hrs. Also, not sure if it had anything to do with the French action, but the gate numbers were changing like a game of musical chairs ! - Every half hour or so another announcement was made that flight xyz was now departing from a different gate to previously displayed and hoardes of passengers would up and move !

I am supposed to fly from Malaga on wednesday, till then I guess that the french strike is over but instead there is a general strike in Spain. 80% of the flights will be cancelled. :ugh:

Anyone knows how flights are selected to run or to be cancelled?

[Thunderbug]

Lon more :rolleyes:

My apologies - yes, I forgot to mention Mastrict control, but I also forgot to mention Heathrow delivery and Heathrow Ground who let us start on schedule and slow taxi to the runway. Heathrow tower who let us depart at the start of the slot. London ATC who gave us the most direct and expeditious departure routing I've ever got from LHR. Not forgetting the Swiss & Italian controllers that gave us direct routings wherever the could.

At the risk of sounding like an Oscar acceptance speech, I mustn't forget to mention the long suffering passengers who have to put up with this continuing nonsense.

Lon More, don't feel left out. You are a small but important part of a big jigsaw. Just don't expect us to roll the credits like they do at the end of a movie!

[flowman]

Normally it is left to the airlines to reduce their programmes by the appropriate percentage. They will keep the most profitable routes and cancel the low revenue ones. The Spanish government will probably insist that the islands are served (Canaries, Ballearics) normally by determining a minimum service. The exact details should be issued soon.

Oh, and by the way, the French have extended their industrial action until the 30th September.

Details will be available here;

EUROCONTROL - Central Flow Management Unit (CFMU) (http://www.cfmu.eurocontrol.int/cfmu/public/subsite_homepage/homepage.html)

Click on CFMU NOP Public

[BrATCO]

Flowman,
"The French" are not on strike.

French ATC is not on strike.
French controllers are not on strike.
They are not on strike !
We are not on strike !

8 posts against "the French" in 10 days... that's a score ! Many angry pilots don't reach that.

Whatever your problems with "the French", nobody's on strike in France today. Nor were they yesterday. The "call to strike" you refer to is not even a call to strike. At least not for French controllers.
Thus French controllers are not on strike.

Truth is out there... somewhere else...

And, by the way, we're not "colleagues", we're your client. The commission you earn in selling the time we build should remind you that.

In your job, do you protect French sectors as well as you protect "the French" on PPRuNe ? Maybe your service is much too expensive. Someone should have a look on that. :E

[papabravowhiskey]

The next date for a "general" strike in France has been announced as 12th October.

PBW

[Thunderbug]

The French" are not on strike.

French ATC is not on strike.
French controllers are not on strike.
They are not on strike !
We are not on strike !


That seems to contradict the info from Eurocontrol........ You may not be on strike, but some of your colleagues most definately are.

French Industrial Action - GENERAL ISSUES - Valid until 30th September

Strike in France has been extended until 30th September inclusive, as stated in Notam A5792/10

This means that delays for flights transiting French airspace or dep/dest any French aerodrome could be subject to unexpected delays

We expect regulations applied (daily) before and after the shift changes.
Such regulations might be cancelled at short notice, depending on the staff participating to the strike
This makes impossible any long term delay forecast.

[Alsacienne]

"The French" are not on strike.

French ATC is not on strike.
French controllers are not on strike.
They are not on strike !
We are not on strike !

8 posts against "the French" in 10 days... that's a score ! Many angry pilots don't reach that.

Whatever your problems with "the French", nobody's on strike in France today. Nor were they yesterday. The "call to strike" you refer to is not even a call to strike. At least not for French controllers.
Thus French controllers are not on strike.

+1 Bratco.

This is not the only forum where the myth of an ongoing French strike is being perpetrated. Bratco and I LIVE and work in France. Stop inflating creative propaganda or NAME YOUR SOURCES. :ugh::ugh:

[10W]

This is not the only forum where the myth of an ongoing French strike is being perpetrated. Bratco and I LIVE and work in France. Stop inflating creative propaganda or NAME YOUR SOURCES.

You have a great opportunity to counter the rumour it seems. Why exactly have there been massive delays for traffic routeing through French airspace recently :confused:?

And why have the French authorities (not anyone else) put out this in the NOTAM ?

DUE TO STRIKE AFFECTING FRENCH PUBLIC SERVICES, SOME DISTURBANCES MIGHT AFFECT FRENCH ATS,AIS AND COM SERVICES: 1)A MINIMUM SERVICE WILL BE ENSURED IN ACCS AND AT LFPG/ LFPO/ LFSB/ LFST/ LFLL/ LFLC/ LFMN/ LFML/ LFKB/ LFKC/ LFKJ/ LFBD/ LFBI/ LFBL/ LFBO/ LFRG/ LFRS AND OVERSEAS AIRPORTS. ACTUAL ATC CAPACITY WILL BE DETERMINED ACCORDING TO AVAILABLE STAFF. 2)AT OTHER AERODROMES,ATS SERVICES MIGHT BE UNAVAILABLE DURING CERTAIN PERIODS NOTIFIED BY NOTAMS. RMK : INFORMATION ON THE REAL TIME SITUATION WILL AVAILABLE ON THE FOLLOWING INTERNET WEBSITE: HTTP://DSNADO.CANALBLOG.COM. 24 SEP 05:00 2010 UNTIL 30 SEP 05:00 2010. CREATED: 24 SEP 06:46 2010

:confused::confused::confused::confused:

[Alsacienne]

You have a great opportunity to counter the rumour it seems.

Wish I could! There is no information on offer or even any news of industrial action available to the travelling public here in France.

And other than this NOTAM, I am not aware of any other information 'leak'. Usual excuses are heavy sector traffic, and domino delays from earlier rotations for both LCCs and legacy carriers.

I do wish you'd all stop blaming the French because I think that you're all being encouraged to do so by others who take pleasure in creating smokescreens to hide their less than straightforward activities.

Will you all turn on the Spanish next week? Or does this sort of badmouthing only come in garlic flavour?

[Nock]

I'll try to explain you what's happening in France.

Who gave notice of strike action?
The Union called UGFF CGT planned a strike between september, 24th to september, 29th.
source: Union Générale des Fédérations de Fonctionnaires (http://www.ugff.cgt.fr/?Preavis-de-greve-pour-le-24-au-29)

What are the implications of this strike?
All civil servants can join this union and therefore can go on strike during this period of time. As you may know, ATCOs in France are civil servants, so theorically ATCOs can go on strike between the 24th and the 29th.
To be sure that the air traffic will be dealt with, our administration decided to deal with this strike like any other strike of ATCOs and decided to requisition ATCOs & put some regulations on traffic (that's what stems from minimum service in France)
That's why you have the NOTAM

What are actually doing french ATCOs?
No controller belongs to the UGFF CGT and even the part of CGT which deals with ATCO (USAC CGT) does not call for a strike during this period. So there is no strike in air traffic control appart from september 23rd.
source: http://www.usac-cgt.org/sites/default/files/2010/Septembre/2010-09-14_Pr%C3%A9avis%20de%20gr%C3%A8ve%2023%20septembre.pdf

(that's clearly written here: L'Union Générale des Fédérations de Fonctionnaires CGT a déposé un préavis de grève sur 8 jours, du 15 au 23 septembre, afin de couvrir les initiatives sectorielles ou individuelles de tous les agents de la Fonction Publique en amont du 23 septembre.
L'USAC-CGT appelle les agents de la DGAC à coordonner et à concentrer leurs actions spécifiquement sur la journée du 23 septembre afin de renforcer la mobilisation nationale.
to summarize: UGFF called for a strike between september, 15th to september 23rd (now 29th) but we ask you to concentrate yours actions specifically on september, 23rd)
So appart from september 23rd, there was no strike.
What we do is that we all go to work, the requisitions are removed and we all work as normal. But due to the regulations put in case some of us would go on strike (which are quickly removed when our administration realizes that nobody is on strike) there can be some disturbance at the begining of some shifts.

Now, your turn:
Why exactly have there been massive delays for traffic routeing through French airspace recently http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/confused.gif? Where, when and how much?
(maybe they are just caused by surges of traffic? give me an example and I will try to find out what's happening!)

I hope my explanations were clear enough (and that my written english is not that rusted!)

Nock

[Alsacienne]

No controller belongs to the UGFF CGT and even the part of CGT which deals with ATCO (USAC CGT) does not call for a strike during this period. So there is no strike in air traffic control appart from september 23rd.
source: http://www.usac-cgt.org/sites/defaul...0septembre.pdf

Merci beaucoup, Nock and your English and your explanations were beautifully clear.

[BrATCO]

Welcome, Nock.;)

Definitely, collapsing and splitting again sectors in the morning creates delays for the whole day.

Controllers, even supervisors are downdogs here.

[Thunderbug]

It seems that today Eurocontrol agree with BrATCO & Alsacienne..........

Eurocontrol CFMU NOP (https://www.cfmu.eurocontrol.int/PUBPORTAL/gateway/spec/index.html)

27/09/2010

French Industrial action -situation at 0645 on 27/09


All French regulations cancelled




I hope it continues into tomorrow and I can look forward to a fine display of French ATC prowess on my flight to TLS (Beaucoup direct si'l vous plait :ok:)

[BrATCO]

Thunderbug,

As usual, we'll provide as many directs as possible ! :ok:

However, we shouldn't do that, regarding CFMU's recommandations...:=

EUROCONTROL - Flight Plan & ATFCM Adherence (http://www.eurocontrol.int/dmean/public/standard_page/FPL_ATFCM_adherence.html)


PBW,

before the call to strike for the 12th, there is a "general" call to demonstrations (not a call to strike) : Saturday, 2nd.
Depending on government's reaction to this, I guess that the call to strike could be removed.
A "call to strike" is not yet a "strike".

[David Sharpe]

I noted during last Thursday's French disruptions, flights into / out of the Balearic Islands were particularly affected. Presumably, because they are about as East as you can get in Spain, it is really not worthwhile to file Oceanic due to the length of the de-tour, but instead to sit and wait for slots through French Airspace to become available ?

[flowman]

All references to French Industrial action come from the website of DSNA, I don't make this stuff up:

DSNA-Direction des Opérations (http://dsnado.canalblog.com/)

If there is no ATC industrial action perhaps you should tell whoever updates your own company website.

It is misleading to imply that regulations placed at the start of shifts and then cancelled do not cause any delay. They cause significant delay and can disrupt first rotations of AO programmes quite significantly which means knock on effects throught the day. These regulations are applied at the request of your FMPs. They are often applied at the start of subsequent shifts continuing the disruption throughout the day

There was enormous disruption on the 23rd September (207,000' of delay attributed to Bordeaux alone!, 407,000' in total), 7th September (200,000' in total)....as has been stated.

The adherence campaign is in response to requests from ANSPs (other air traffic control units). The vast majority of overloads are caused by aircraft arriving at non FPL FLs or because they departed outside slot times. If you ignore the recommendation you ignore the requests of your colleagues, not CFMU, we are simply the messenger.

flowman

[BrATCO]

"Industrial action" or not ?
If there is no ATC industrial action perhaps you should tell whoever updates your own company website.
Funny enough, I guess DSNA knows it (stand to be corrected).
Look at your reference to DSNA website : each time there's a restriction, they say an improvement should occur 15 min later. I would write it another way if I really expected an industrial action. But I'm only level 4...
The improvement occurs everytime.
Make your own mind.:oh:

As Nock explained us :
All civil servants can join this union and therefore can go on strike during this period of time. As you may know, ATCOs in France are civil servants, so theorically ATCOs can go on strike between the 24th and the 29th.
To be sure that the air traffic will be dealt with, our administration decided to deal with this strike like any other strike of ATCOs and decided to requisition ATCOs & put some regulations on traffic (that's what stems from minimum service in France)
That's why you have the NOTAM

The requisitions are applied by high-up management, just "in case" we would decide to go on strike. Which we don't do because we have no reason. As nobody has been mean with us lately.



Misleading about delays caused by minimum service ?
Maybe I wasn't clear enough.
I wrote :Definitely, collapsing and splitting again sectors in the morning creates delays for the whole day.
I meant I do totally, unconditionally, agree with you on this.

When minimum service is applied, supervisors (who don't have a right to go on strike either) must deal with the number of controllers they've got.
They can not guess, or suppose. Hence the restrictions.
If management says there could be a strike, who are supervisors to say : "no, there won't be..." ?
In fact, that's what they've done in Brest ACC, they've taken the responsability (in accordance with controllers) to open 10 sectors instead of 4 during the minimum service periods since a few days.
But if anything had gone wrong, that would have been supervisors' responsability. Management would've had done what had to be done.
So much for the supervisor...

Anyway, this call to industrial action has come to an end this morning.


September, 7th and 23rd :
Those two days WERE strike days which followed ATC unions' call to strike. Hence the huge delays.
There should be no industrial action from French controllers until October, 12th. (Caution : this is just my guess, no guaranty !)


Adherence days :
Of course, I will "stick to the plan".
When we did "stick to the plan" this summer, we were called "unprofessional" by pilots. Now we would be called the same by Eurocontrol if we don't .........:suspect:.........

[flowman]

More disruption possible this weekend (1700 today to 0500 Sunday morning):

(A5981/10 NOTAMN
Q)LFXX/QXXXX/IV/NBO/E /000/999/4558N00520E999 A)LFEE LFBB LFFF LFMM LFRR B)1010011700 C)1010030500 E)DUE TO STRIKE AFFECTING FRENCH PUBLIC SERVICES, SOME DISTURBANCES MIGHT AFFECT FRENCH ATS,AIS AND COM SERVICES:
1- A MINIMUM SERVICE WILL BE ENSURED IN ACCS AND AT LFPG/LFPO/LFSB/LFST/LFLL/LFLC/LFMN/LFML/LFKB/LFKC/LFKJ/LFBD/LFBI/LFBL
/LFBO/LFRG/LFRS AND OVERSEAS AIRPORTS.
ACTUAL ATC CAPACITY WILL BE DETERMINED ACCORDING TO AVAILABLE STAFF.
2- AT OTHER AERODROMES,ATS SERVICES MIGHT BE UNAVAILABLE DURING CERTAIN PERIODS NOTIFIED BY NOTAMS.
RMK:INFORMATION ON THE REAL TIME SITUATION WILL BE AVAILABLE ON THE FOLLOWING INTERNET WEBSITE: HTTP://DSNADO.CANALBLOG.COM)

[BrATCO]

Note : in the NOTAM, they use "MIGHT". Is this a clue ?

[flowman]

I did say disruption was POSSIBLE, so spotted that clue thanks. But:

Minimum service regulations have already been requested by Paris and Marseille, we are still awaiting decisions from Brest and Bordeaux. So there WILL be disruption for the airlines who have already advised us that they have busy night programmes this weekend and already face knock on delays throughout the day.

[flowman]

We have just co-ordinated with Algeria for traffic to re-route via their airspace to avoid Marseille restrictions.

No special permission to fly via Algerian airspace will be required during the period of the strike (1700 utc Friday to 0500 utc Sunday).

Operators using this route MUST address their FPLs to DAAAZQZX and DTTCZXZX. Failure to do so will jeopardise this agreement and may result in traffic being refused.

flowman

[BrATCO]

Flowman,
The "clue" was about whether the management knows about the situation in control rooms or not. It was not about your ability to read a NOTAM.

I understand reroutings COULD be useful, but there's a big risk that the "strike" will be tomorrow as it was yesterday, and the day before, and the day before, and the day before, and the day before, and the day before,... Naught.

@ Pilots, companies : Don't forget to try via France.

There's no call to strike for tomorrow (2nd October) from any French ATC union.

[Nock]

I'm really sorry but I don't understand you at all Flowman.

On one hand you say that we have to abide by procedures and stick to the RFL:
The adherence campaign is in response to requests from ANSPs (other air traffic control units). The vast majority of overloads are caused by aircraft arriving at non FPL FLs or because they departed outside slot times. If you ignore the recommendation you ignore the requests of your colleagues, not CFMU, we are simply the messenger.
On the other hand you seem to mean that we shouldn't abide by procedures and do not implement regulations when there is a risk of strike because it creates delays:
It is misleading to imply that regulations placed at the start of shifts and then cancelled do not cause any delay. They cause significant delay and can disrupt first rotations of AO programmes quite significantly which means knock on effects throught the day. These regulations are applied at the request of your FMPs. They are often applied at the start of subsequent shifts continuing the disruption throughout the day
As we (BrATCO, Alsacienne and me) tried to explain is that there was nobody on strike during these days but there was a potential general industrial action and therefore we had to respect procedures in case a team wouldn't show up.

We are criticized for implementing delays in case there were a strike but imagine if we didn't and that people decided to go on strike. Don't you think that it would be far worse?
We are also criticized for not following the RFL but when we did, all airlines said we were not professional and that this behaviour was not tolerable!

I wish there was a manual where it would be written which rules we have to abide by and which ones we don't have to follow, but unfortunately it doesn't exist.

Nock

[flowman]

Next French strike:

ACTION IS DUE TO START 1700UTC 11/10/10 AND CONTINUE
UNTIL 0500UTC WEDNESDAY 13/10/10.
.
LEVEL OF DISRUPTION IS NOT YET KNOWN.

The only information received so far is from Brest FMP indicating that Brest ACC will be reduced to minimum service from the start of the night shift at1800utc. Other FMPs should supply details of expected levels of service during Monday and updates will be made available here:

https://www.cfmu.eurocontrol.int/PUBPORTAL/gateway/spec/index.html

[BrATCO]

It seems that last week's demonstrations (no strike) weren't enough to find an agreement.:oh:

This call to strike is "renewable", which means that anybody can go on strike anytime from the 12th onward. No time limit. As far as I know, more than 400 calls nationwide.

On the ATC side of the problem, my prediction is : huge disruption the 12th (beginning the 11th after 1700 UTC). Then, once again, the daily disruptions due, once again, to the minimum service (as explained above).