Ansett and the Fokker Friendship [Archive] - Page 2

john_tullamarine

8th Dec 2010, 20:31

The last man standing should write a book, especially if he knows a good lawyer.

ahh .. don't do that .. too many of us have far too many skeletons buried in back of the closet albeit some of the worst cases progressively are shuffling off the mortal coil. For me, I deny with the greatest conviction each and every allegation relating to alleged indiscretions in advance .. including the ones relating to overnights when I wasn't even there ... some of those, however, do bring a contemplative and reflective smile to the face on occasion when one harks back over a good port in the old rocking chair ...

I get all light-headed thinking of the orange min-skirts and bee-hive hats, the Darwin Travelodge, 'the Two Jacks', many memories

That about sums it up in précis.

Malevolent Checkers dream machine.

There was a simple fix for landing the beast but it was readily defeated if you elected to try with your eyes open. On the other hand the 722 sorted me out for quite a while until I realised it was just a big C150 .. and, yet, the 721 was the most delightful pussycat of an aeroplane ..

Dog One

8th Dec 2010, 23:37

It is a lovely looking aeroplane!

Aye Ess

9th Dec 2010, 02:12

John Tulla,By George & the rest of you F27 drivers,

Awwww,come on,tell us youngins some stories. Aviators LOVE stories & now you've got us all interested. Just start by saying "I once heard from a mate of a mate.....". That way no one can tell if the story is fact or fiction & everyone can get a good laugh out of it or learn a valuable lesson. Awww,come on. PLEEEEZ.

john_tullamarine

9th Dec 2010, 05:59

Dare we be so reckless ?

or learn a valuable lesson ..

I suspect the lessons we olde phartes learned in days of long ago are no longer as relevant as they may have been back then.

Indeed, a mate flying with one of the current carriers observed in a telecon the other day that one of his management folk had issued some document purporting to direct pilots how to behave themselves on overnights ... we had a collective chuckle and observed, with weary visage, that it probably was time to put ourselves out to pasture.

I recall, quite fondly, folk such as the wonderful Chrissy M et al who trained up us young chaps in RON protocols and woebetide if any of us stepped out of line without an invitation. Then there was Margie C who, for reasons known only to herself, took me under her ample wing as a young F/O in the best protective grandmotherly fashion ... I learned, very quickly, that hosties younger than a respectable age really had a way to go before attaining the goddess-like aura of their elder sisters ...

I recall, although through great haze, my very first RON on the Mouse in Mt Gambier .. the girls drank both of us under the table and proceeded to throw us one each over their shoulders and carried us back to the pub. There was a scurrilous story (about the other bloke as I recall :rolleyes::rolleyes: ) and something to do with skinny dipping in the pool at a ridiculously late hour.

I recall, with the greatest of fond memories, Alice during a track trip with a gang of four whom one would die for. The four of us went out to Standley Chasm in the Moke, complete with survival kit .. the girls weren't too sure as Graeme and I were singing our silly heads off all the way .. stone cold sober. Wonderful night ...

That's enough G-rated nonsense from me ....

bonvol

9th Dec 2010, 06:14

Awww Ok then.

Heard the following story from a mate of a mate of a mate.

As we know Check Captains sit in the office all day dreaming up sneaky check questions but occasionally do the odd line flight. This was one.

Its night and CC "Ace" is flying into Sydney at night landing on RWY 34.
The parking bay is one of the usual up near the Ansett terminal.
The briefing is "we will hold off on ground fine pitch so we can take the last taxiway and not hold anyone up". This was pretty standard procedure on the line but it was a bit unexpected for a checkie to do it.
At about 50 feet "Ace" decides to not touchdown but fly level up the runway till past the intersection. There he very smoothly touches down. Still no GFP and whoops there goes the taxiway. F/O utters expletive. The penny drops and he goes for it, somehow missing the selection but gets it next go. As anyone who has hit the brakes hard on an F27 knows not much happens for a few secs but then things start to really happen. The maxarets get a very good workout and the thing pulls up just short of using the whole nine yards. Not much talking happening now.

Fast forward a few days and memo comes out. Pilots must land at the normal touchdown point on RWY 34 under all circumstances.

B772

9th Dec 2010, 12:12

Reference to ASP reminds me of the occassion when a 40 seat F27 was scheduled to operate 3 local flights for a school group totaling 120. The F27 arrived in ASP late so it was decided 2 flights would operate with 60 on each. From memory the Capt was Cr....... Ka.. who also held/holds the record of 1:45 for a F27 MEL-LST-DPO.

sixtiesrelic

9th Dec 2010, 21:57

They were much more respectable in Brissy.
Wild young FO had become a mighy MOUSE captain.
First flight on the line he's bein' REAL professional and is a bit boring... he's takin' himself so seriously.
Gladstone overnight where the surley Pommy motel owner insists we give our surnames first and always calls F.Os FLIGHT officer when checkin' in and doesn't seem to approve of happiness in any form.
Captain only has two small beers and goes to bed at the hour little kids are still up.
Crew plot during their quieties after work.
2 AM Captain's door is hammered on and he shoots up to it, thikin' he's gone an' bloody done it and slept in.
Crew with bags and uniforms standin outside say , "Bus'll be here any tick... you up yet?"
Slams door, heart goin a million to the secondand heads for the uniform all set out and bag ready for jamies and razor then can be zipped up.
More hammerin' on the door and he's let in on the secret.
Didn't sleep too well till alarm went off at set time of an hour before pick up.

That probably happened a few times ... I just loved it when I heard the names of the wicked... forget exactly who now. There's a couple of heros I get mixed up in who did what.

john_tullamarine

9th Dec 2010, 22:33

That's a bit like another dreadful night I heard about ... pilote wakes up (DRW Travelodge - not terribly sober) stark bollocky, bed stripped, room stripped, bags gone .. not even a toothbrush left in the bath room.

Picture said bollocky knocking on crew doors at 0-dark-30 in the morning in an endeavour to find his kit. Eventually one of the girls admitted to knowing where the stuff was .. but didn't let on that his mate was engaged in late evening discussion with her at the time ... as his mate (not a member of the Mouse crew but a local GA pilot) related the tale to the assembled pilot group a couple of nights later, it was a case of "there we were, discussing the weather .. when some turkey knocks on the door. Being the brave chap I am, I pulled the sheet over my head and left XXX to repel boarders ..."

As I was told that track trip was one of the more robust in terms of entertainment .. it appears that the basics of the greater story beat the aircraft to Alice the next day and the marshallers couldn't contain their mirth as the crew taxied in to the stand.

tinpis

10th Dec 2010, 17:58

The FO that started her up and moved it himself. Later, to fame and fortune in the A320:p

sixtiesrelic

10th Dec 2010, 19:32

Not! the very same one who waited till he reckoned the captain was well into bombs away in the crapper and hit the alarm bell as a bit of a prank and couldn't understand what all the fuss was about when it was taken SO seriously, or earlier, on his initial clerance to the line check put his feet up and pulled out a flight magazine and started relaxing while the SEP2 took them along for the ride.

donderwolkje

10th Dec 2010, 22:11

sixtiesrlelic
Geez, that would have been one brave man (or hung over) to take a dump in that excuse of a W.C.
Dark, dangerous, and a long way from the pointy end.
Regards........

donderwolkje

10th Dec 2010, 22:28

And another thing, hands up all those people who tried to relight the thing in flight, (duiring asymmetric sessions), with the prop synchronizer instead of the ignition switch.
Come on own up!!!!!

Regards

tinpis

11th Dec 2010, 11:00

I can gladly say I cannot recall any tech. details about the Focker .
Not that I ever could, especially on checks. :hmm:

Dog One

15th Dec 2010, 07:57

What was the runway performance like. I know that TAA operated the F27 up to East Timor, did Ansett? I understand that TAA used Bacau (2500m) rather than Dili, which in those days was about 1400m.

Capt Fathom

15th Dec 2010, 11:21

What was the runway performance like

Hmmm. Let me see?

Summer in....

...North QLD, Western QLD, NT, NSW, VIC, SA, WA!

Norfolfk to SYD.

Probably not a problem!

tinpis

15th Dec 2010, 18:59

Spot the difference :hmm:

6sskD1WxnPc
xoWgDws8yx8&NR=1

skylane

18th Dec 2010, 23:30

What was the roster pairing for the MIldura overnight? Did the crew do a Wynyard/Devonport before or after Mildura?

Brasilian Boy

19th Dec 2010, 04:04

The F27 with the gust locks was` Captain by Russ Strother. He put the tech log, in those day in an aluminum jacket behind the seat and inadvertently pushed in the gust lock around Parkes.The captain on that flight was Russ' father, Ian Strother, who had been married to my Aunt. Yes, I believe the problem occurred when he slid his seat back for the cruise, unknowingly jamming the tech log against the gust lock. There is somewhere a local newspaper article detailing the story, and how close they came to losing the aircraft. Apparently their incident may have explained away one or two fatal crashes overseas. Both Ian and Russ were accomplished FK27 captains with ANSW. I hope I am correct in saying that Ian was Chief Pilot of ANSW at the time of his retirement.

The sad part later was Russ's son also a captain with ANSW died of a brain anuism whilst playing sport - a terrible loss. Ian was the father, and Russ was the son who sadly passed away from a heart attack whilst playing indoor cricket.

Russ was my first cousin, and I had flatted with him for some time in Brisbane when he moved there in the late 1970s for a B727 F/O slot. He earned the nick-name of "Vasco" - as in the famous explorer and navigator Vasco da Gama - for his VFR flight in a C182 from Sydney to Perth and return, in 1969, via Broken Hill, Oodnadatta, Alice Springs, Ayers Rock, Curtin Springs, Forrest and Kalgoorlie.

I'm not certain, but I believe he was the first to successfully complete the East-West crossing via this route in a VFR single; previous attempts having been unsuccessful in one way or another. This story featured in an article in Australian Flying, October 1969, p28.

Russ was only 36 when he passed away in 1986, and is still very much missed by his father, mother, brother and two sisters, as well as numerous other family and friends. He was a true gentleman.

Vale Captain Russell Strother;
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g44/piaggio_2006/Friends%20and%20Family/CptRussStrotherlowres.jpg

CharlieLimaX-Ray

20th Dec 2010, 09:49

The old curvature of the earth departure for the F-27.

Dog One

26th Dec 2010, 21:20

Single engine performance must have been reasonable, remember seeing some years ago a factory film with the camera mounted on the left nacelle. An engine was failed and the footage shows the prop feathering while the aircraft was firmly on the ground, then the rotation and gear retracting. I would imagine that the aircraft would have been at MTOW (if the film was a visual record for test flight purposes) or if a sales promtion film, probably not!

donderwolkje

27th Dec 2010, 01:28

If you flew the thing with just the right amount of rudder and 5 deg of roll, it flew away as advertised. (even in Adelaide on a hot hot day!!)
Regards.

Mach E Avelli

27th Dec 2010, 02:46

For initial acceptance C of A air test, at the factory they were loaded to max gross weight with sandbags and fuel. The engine-out climb capability was checked by departing at flap 16, selecting gear up at V2 and simultaneously feathering the critical engine. It was then climbed for 5 minutes at V2 with the flap remaining at 16 and had to meet the AFM numbers for the prevailing temperature. It was then cleaned up to flap zero, the critical engine relit and the other engine shut down for a 4th segment climb test which commenced from 400 ft and went for 10 minutes at max continuous. But that was only done on new airframes or those out of major overhaul. Annual C of A tests were done at less weight and the numbers crunched based on AFM predictions for the lesser weight. In the 2nd segment they could just make the numbers, some a bit better than others, and all exceeded it by a comfortable margin in the 4th segment. They were basically hand-built and did vary a bit.
Pilots who did all their training on the actual aircraft (not many simulators around back then) did so at light weights and were probably fooled into thinking it was better than it really was.

VBPCGUY

27th Dec 2010, 02:53

Yep, also to Broken Hill, Mt Gambier, Port Lincoln and Whyalla. They also had the Santos contract to Moomba - they folded very shortly after losing that moneyspinner.

I grew up in WYA and remember them fondly, great aircraft.

tinpis

27th Dec 2010, 04:37

Pilots who did all their training on the actual aircraft (not many simulators around back then) did so at light weights

Ah yes ...hot bumpy day at Tamworth about ten of us doing renewals sitting down the back waiting your turn feeling to crook to eat the sandwiches, Fokker performing like pig ( how many SE missed approaches will it do before a Dart goes bang?)

Mach E Avelli

27th Dec 2010, 23:58

Tinny, the risks of sitting back there in total trust while guys fooled around with engine failures would not be acceptable today. Makes a feller wonder how he survived it all.
Imagine if one had augered in with a dozen on board.

tinpis

28th Dec 2010, 00:20

Imagine if one had augered in with a dozen on board

The seniority lists would have got a good going over that night. :hmm::rolleyes:

B772

29th Dec 2010, 20:33

Skylane.

For many years the pairing was:

885/886/706 O/N (MEL-WNY-MEL-MQL) Sun to Thu
707/855/856 (MQL-MEL-WNY-MEL) Mon to Fri

Aye Ess

30th Dec 2010, 01:57

Did any of the F27's operate onto unsealed strips?

donderwolkje

30th Dec 2010, 03:09

At first thought,(Kingscote)/ Kangaroo Island, Ceduna, and random trips to (Olympic Dam)/ Roxby Downs in thes south, most likely more up QLD way!!!! Went quite well in the dirt. Did not like mud up in the nose wheel area, played havoc with the retract/extend bizzo!!!!

Regards

By George

30th Dec 2010, 07:12

Moomba as well before it was sealed. I can remember going into Kingscote with John O'Hagan, famous for having an ID that showed a picture of his dog (F/O 'Barker'). I cannot recall how long it took before someone noticed, about 6 months I think. Very funny man, Irish and ex-helicopter.

john_tullamarine

30th Dec 2010, 10:46

Imagine if one had augered in with a dozen on board

We routinely did local with folk in the back with pax configured aircraft.

However, I sometimes think back to my Electra endorsement with trepidation ..

(a) did the lot at night, including all the engine failures

(b) no seats in the back so we all stood around in the cockpit sort of hanging on to whatever makeshift handgrips were available

However the man running the show did demo a three point turn on the taxiway and that was pretty neat ..

Stationair8

31st Dec 2010, 08:06

Did the TAA F-27's ever operate Melbourne direct Williamtown, or was always Sydney?

The TAA flight operating Darwin to Dili , was that on behalf of Qantas or in TAA's own right?

Did TAA base an F-27 in Darwin, or did the aircraft operate through to Darwin from Brisbane via the western QLD route?

Ex FSO GRIFFO

31st Dec 2010, 09:57

MMA's F-27's did operate into EUCLA for a time, (CHTR) servicing a rig in the near vicinity....would have been only hard sand at the time...probably still is.

And, not too long thereafter, one ran off the 'hard stuff' whilst turning at... Leinster/or Leonora was it'..(?) and got 'stuck' for a while....

VERY early '80's or thereabouts....

Dora-9

31st Dec 2010, 19:43

Unsealed Runways in F27’s

There were simply no restrictions – if it was serviceable it could be used!

The only totally unsealed airfield in the Melbourne-based network was Flinders Island; published as being “crushed limestone” it was like landing in talcum powder, a smooth landing was virtually assured.

Many on-line ports had alternate (crossing) runways that could be used if the crosswind on the sealed runway was excessive; Portland, Warrnambool, King Island, Hamilton and Wagga Wagga spring immediately to mind.

There was a trick to Hamilton, where overflying was distinctly frowned upon. If the forecast indicated a strong crosswind, you could ring ahead and get a flarepath laid on the cross (gravel) strip. Inevitably on arrival, peering down at the illuminated windsock would reveal no such crosswind, but you were sort of obliged to land on the gravel just to justify the time and effort to lay out the flares!

As Griffo says, many charters were to unsealed airfields also. From my own experience to Deniliquin once (FIVE F27’s; the sealed runway wasn’t available for some reason), several charters to airfields in the Qld coalfields and also to Mt Tom Price and Laverton in WA.

BalusKaptan

31st Dec 2010, 19:55

Merrimbula also comes to mind. On loan to ANSW at times and operated the 20 ton Dog Whistle in there from time to time.

B772

1st Jan 2011, 11:21

In the early 80's runway 06/24 at DPO was closed whilst a B727-200 standard runway was constructed in it's place. During this period a short temporary gravel runway 06/24 was constructed by placing an overlay of gravel on grass.

The gravel strip width was 15 metres and it looked like a cricket pitch on approach. During the winter it was soft with large pools of surface water at times. The F27 took it in its stride and after arrival in MEL the a/c often needed a spuce up to remove the 'mud' and an engineering check.

skylane

1st Jan 2011, 11:59

Launceston also used a temporary gravel strip in the early sixties when they upgraded the runway. From memory a AN F-27 crashed short of the 32 threshold and was destroyed by the ensuing fire, but I don't think any lives were lost.

They also used the gravel runway again in the early eighties during runway works, and a Air Tasmania Heron came to grief landing 14.

Dora-9

1st Jan 2011, 19:21

The LST Rwy 32 accident was the classic case of a single-engined approach using Flap 40 going (inevitably) wrong. I don't think it had anything to do with landing/not landing on a sealed runway.

Dog One

1st Jan 2011, 20:57

A 15 m wide soggy gravel strip with DPO's notorious NW x/winds must have been interesting. I would suppose that the normal x/w limitation would have been halved for the 15 m approval?

Crew rest.

2nd Jan 2011, 22:02

I recall that the F50 was flown in and out of Wagga for a while when the bitumen strip was being re-sealed. This meant that operations were confined to the grass strip.

skipper1981

3rd Jan 2011, 04:03

I recall being a pax on an F27 taking off from Brewarrina in the early sixties.The strip was only about 1000 metres long,with a 20 knot headwind.They held the brakes,put on lots of power.Off she went with room to spare.Very impressive!

donderwolkje

3rd Jan 2011, 06:35

Stop beating around the bush, in it's day it was a world beater, noisy yes, difficult to fly well yes, but a great base A/C to get your first airline command on.
Regards

B772

3rd Jan 2011, 10:00

Dog One.

From memory the F27 was certified for an 18 metre runway width contained within a 90 metre strip width. One or two of the AN F27 Captains queried the
suitability and width of the temporary runway and were told the runway met the requirements as it was 18 metres wide with a gravel surface on the central 15 metres.

Ps. Did anyone operate the F27 or F50 to Rupert Murdoch's farm paddock which was referred to as Rupes Place.

Ps. Seeing a B757-200 on the 30 metre runway at AYQ was interesting !.

skylane

3rd Jan 2011, 22:44

I was surprised when they laid the gravel strip at DPO, because in the sixties and early seventy's, the boundary markers on the northern side of RW24/06 were displaced to allow for a grass strip, the same lenght as the sealed runway. This was used by DC4's when runway works were carried out.

Wiley

3rd Jan 2011, 23:23

Did anyone operate the F27 or F50 to Rupert Murdoch's farm paddock which was referred to as Rupes Place?Yes, I did one charter to Rupert's farm, with a full load of glitterati and clitterati who we took there for lunch before taking them back to Sydney, all of them very well oiled, the same afternoon.

The one thing I do recall was that the gravel was a bit soft (it had rained relatively recently before we went in there) and the Friendly's wheels left quite definite ruts in the strip and the parking area.

I'm told we also threw up quite a bit of gravel as we started the takeoff run, much to the discomfort of those onlookers silly enough to be standing quite some distance behind the aircraft.

The strip was no more restrictive than some of the places we landed at on the Around Australia Charters, (probably the best holiday I've ever been paid to take).

The only downside to those excellent trips was the stupidity of the Flight Attendants' Union (the head office in Melbourne) forbidding the same two girls from doing the whole trip - the Union insisted on a crew change half way around the trip. (I think it was in Darwin.) I think it would be safe to say 100% of the ANSW girls hated that, as did the pax, who really bonded with the girls. (On the subject of the ANSW girls, if there was a lemon among them, I can't recall her. What a great bunch they were.)

I still have a vivid memory of walking into the bar at the Roebuck Arms in Broome with our two FAs in tow. Both girls were seriously overdressed for the Roey and both of them were very near the top of the tree in the 'eye candy' department. The utter silence as forty feral West Orstralyan male drinkers stopped, to a man, to ogle the girls and look daggers at me and the FO was something to behold.

On one of the earliest Around Australia charters, one captain (the redoubtable Caveman) had to ask the pax if one of them would agree to use his American Express card to pay for the fuel at one of the more remote airfields, as the fuelling agent wouldn't accept the ANSW carnet.

I have to agree with earlier posts regarding ANSW. What a gem of an operation it was - and not just the aircrew. Pat and Malcolm ran about the most efficient and happy Admin. Department I've ever run across in my life.

I've just discovered this thread and agree with others' comments that it's been a pleasure to read - with the exception of posts #282 and 283. The less said about that individual the better. The many nicknames he collected over his years with AN - every one of the pejorative - says it all.

Dora-9

4th Jan 2011, 03:29

Wiley, regarding your last paragraph - when I was doing my command training (this was 1977-ish), part of my line flying was with a certain CC, actually a really good guy. By about my third sector of flying as PF, every time I asked for something I would get something idiotically different, e.g. asking for the landing checklist produced the limitations being read out, asking for gear up on take off produced more flap etc etc.

Eventually I asked him what the the f*** he was doing - his response was: "I am training you to fly with R** T*****!"

I thought he was joking until I had to fly with that creature.

Delta_Foxtrot

4th Jan 2011, 06:40

Does anybody have the background to the landing accident involving VH-TQQ at RAAF Amberley about June 1982?
I was in the jump seat of a Chinook at the holding point for RWY 15 when TQQ appeared on short finals, flapless, with a reasonably high rate of descent. A big thump later, and a left main wheel bounced back over the horizontal stab and aircraft started veering left.
That wouldn't have been so bad except the left MLG hit the arrestor barrier drum off the side of the runway, neatly collapsing the gear leg and removing the left prop. TQQ then slid on the right MLG, NLG and left wingtip in a graceful arc and came to a halt just past the F111 engine test facility on the eastern side of RWY 15. Timing is everything as about ten minutes earlier, an F111 under tow had been waiting to cross back to the tarmac area and TQQ went through about where it had been waiting.
TQQ's remaining servicable prop wound down and several figures jumped out and decamped. Our aircraft captain (Welsh RAF exchange officer and terribly nice bloke) called Amberley Ground with words to the effect "confirm you've seen the aircraft crash on the runway?" - shortly after the crash alarm sounded. And then we went for a fly.
Next day, I had an interview with an investigator as it appeared that I was the only eye-witness as both the drivers had their heads inside doing engine checks. There was a rumour that two (or more) check-type people were involved. Poor old TQQ was removed by a low-loader several days later.
I'd really like to know what went on in the front seats...

DF

tinpis

4th Jan 2011, 19:40

....Nobody seems to know what Glen "The Clam" is up to nowdays? Last I heard was a fruit truck, but that was ages ago.......

Stationair8

6th Jan 2011, 05:45

Would have been nice to be a newly cleared to line F-27 Captain with a rookie FO and get a call from crewing to say your off to Devonport tonight.

Would have been lovely arriving during the passage of the cold front on a winters night, blowing a gale, pouring with rain, low cloud and NBD or VAR circling approach onto a little narrow gravel strip with temporary lighting.

The old F-27 must have been a well thought out design by the Dutch, pretty versatile aircraft when you consider that it operated all over Australia from the tropic heat in Darwin to the cooler climates of southern Australia.

Who was the best operater of the F-27? Ansett, TAA, East-West, MMA, Air Queensland?

7x7

6th Jan 2011, 07:58

Can't comment on any airline but Ansett, but perhaps two points are worth making in the way AN operated the F27:

- during one Fleet Captain's relatively long reign, (KP, later in life to lose a lot of credibility and many if not most friends, but let's not go there), there were absolutely none, not one, change to SOPs, and

- many of the things AN's SOPs made F27 crews do, which appeared at first glance to many newcomers to the airline to be superfluous and overly complicated, made the transition onto the DC9 (and to a lesser extent, the B727), almost seamless. Someone, (I suspect Henry Theunnisen had a lot to do with it), had really done his homework well and came up with a set of SOPs that were damn near perfect if you looked upon the Friendship as Ansett did - as a training tool for someone who would one day go onto jets. I have to say that I found the DC9 conversion a breeze thanks in large part to the fact that I'd been doing 90% of what I had to do to fly the -9 on the F27.

Stationair8, what you missed saying about those Wynyard or Devonport trips for very junior captains and very new FOs was that as reserve block holders, each would often be doing the trip, just two sectors, as his one trip for the month, each approaching 30 (or was it 35?) days since he'd last flown - and all too often, the captain couldn't (or chose not to!! - bastards!) give away takeoffs and landings. For years, I didn't know there was another way out of Melbourne than by the 150 radial of the ML VOR.

Does anyone else remember the very junior captain who always made a PA telling the pax the bad landing was the FOs?

skylane

6th Jan 2011, 09:45

Any one remember the TAA F27 incident in October 73 at Wynyard, where the aircraft was flown in IMC below 300'

Dora-9

6th Jan 2011, 10:01

7 X 7:

The SOP's you refer to were established well before HT's reign - which is not for one second to detract from Henry's contribution.

Brian Abraham

6th Jan 2011, 10:31

Who was the best operater of the F-27? Ansett, TAA, East-West, MMA, Air Queensland?Associated Airlines

B772

6th Jan 2011, 12:32

Skylane.

All the old timers remember the incident you refer to at WNY. VH-TFM with Capt M... D and F/O B.... W.

The FDR reported an altitude as low as 118 feet, the F/O said his altimeter showed around 100 feet above the water at one stage and he did not sight the coastline. (A long final at 100 feet to R/W 26 would have been an impressive approach)

airsupport

6th Jan 2011, 17:59

I suspect Henry Theunnisen had a lot to do with it

One of Natures True Gentlemen. :ok:

Does anyone know if he is still around?

NO sinister reason for asking, just I spent a lot of great times with Henry, at Ansett, but also at Southern Cross and in Vietnam. :ok:'

sixtiesrelic

6th Jan 2011, 21:31

Wynyard...
Captain had spent years in PNG, legally letting down over the tea plantation popping under the fog and making a long oblique final to Mt Hagen each morning in F27s but you couldn't do that sort of thing in Oz.
Can be done but illegal.

Henry... yes nature's gentleman who put you totally at ease when he checked and especially when 'the scrub check' was on.
I suspect some people who were up for scrubbing got through because Henry was checking them. Someone else and they'd probably have been too stressed.
Luckily I liked the smell of cigars in the cockpit. I only got to fly with him a few times and watching him, learned just a little bit more each time.

The SOPs stayed the same in the F27, but with each new flight captain we'd get a new fangled blind flying screen they's spent hours designing.
Some were engineering monstrosities with venetian blinds to open at the minimum, others were just a chunk of flat plastic yet most times a cushion from the cabin was the favoured impediment to looking out the window. Chucking it on the floor at the minimum was easiest rather than messing around trying to stow some clanking mechano set.

Mach E Avelli

6th Jan 2011, 21:45

There may have been a grand plan in Ansett's approach to complex SOPs for a simple aeroplane. At the other end of the scale, Iran Air had a different approach to preparing pilots for jets. The F27 was the training ground. We had to do the engine start and after start drills without reference to any checklist, merely chanting certain items like "brakes set, pressures 1500, fuel trim 50, throttles & HP cocks closed, one pump on, crossfeed open, beacon on, starting 2" (see I can still remember!). There simply wasn't a checklist, the assumption being that systems knowledge and an orderly scan would get it going. The taxi checklist had about 5 items on it - B737 style. There were only two items on line-up (as it should be) and all the in-flight checklists were similarly brief. They came up with these procedures to cater for multiple sectors, short turnarounds and 'heads-up' flying in conditions that ranged from sandstorms to blizzards in very mountainous areas. The MSA was often above the aircraft's single-engine ceiling, so it was a very challenging environment. There was no time for 'window dressing' with lots of SOPs. Briefings were very short - the checkie would only allow you 30 seconds talk-time.
The training was excellent, including deadstick landing on every base check. Most of the cadet pilots who came through the F27 went straight to B737 or 727 after 18 month exposure to this and most made the grade.
At the time their safety record was impeccable and only went down the tubes after the revolution and with Soviet aircraft displacing Western designs.
Ansett was undoubtedly a good operator, but in that environment I reckon the Iranians had just about the ultimate F27 SOP.

airsupport

6th Jan 2011, 22:26

Henry... yes nature's gentleman who put you totally at ease when he checked and especially when 'the scrub check' was on.
I suspect some people who were up for scrubbing got through because Henry was checking them. Someone else and they'd probably have been too stressed.
Luckily I liked the smell of cigars in the cockpit. I only got to fly with him a few times and watching him, learned just a little bit more each time.

Yes, just curious I guess he is retired now.

Still with us though hopefully, not carrying out checks in Heaven yet?

Dog One

7th Jan 2011, 08:05

Re TFM Wynyard

100' on the altimeter in IMC.Given the possible altimeter tolerances, the aircraft could have been very close to the water. No wonder the FO got upset. What eventually happened to the Captains career?

skylane

7th Jan 2011, 23:47

Is it correct that the Department of the day introduced DME Homing and letdown charts due to the early F27 having only one ADF and one VAR/VOR receivers. This installation required an alternate at aerodromes where only a NDB was available. With the publishing of DME let down charts, alternates at places like Wynyard(NDB/DME) were only necessary for weather.

Dora-9

8th Jan 2011, 00:03

The earlier Ansett F.27's had one VHF Comm (we used to tell ATC we were "going off the air to call the company" - can't imagine getting away with that now), one VHF Nav Receiver (not ever to be touched, on pain of death, by the FO), one ADF and one 200 MHz (domestic) DME.

Later -200's had two Comms and two ADF's, but I think it was only the -500's that had two NAVs.

MTOW

8th Jan 2011, 07:19

one VHF Nav Receiver (not ever to be touched, on pain of death, by the FO)Oh Dora, you bring back memories with that comment... From memory, It was give or take 200nm from Wonthaggi to Wynyard or Devonport, so the FO's "big moment" for the trip was, as near to the mid point as you could judge, to reach up and change the single ADF from the station behind to the station ahead.

How well I recall, as a reserve block holder, flying my only two sector flight for the month with with one of the (let's be kind) trainee astronaut very junior captains and asking him if he'd like me to tune the Wynyard NDB.

His reply was in the tone of a father who'd just caught his five year old lighting matches in the middle of a major high octane fuel spill. "No! Not yet!"

I did a not very slow silent count to ten and before I reached "eleven", received the command (note that: "command"): "Tune the Wynyard NDB."

An FO just has to get his timing right. :) It made me wonder what they taught during the command training about the necessity for a captain to assert his authority.

I fondly recall one captain on the Friendly, GD, who had an unrequited love affair with the PA. On one flight to Wynyard, a minute or two over one hour from wheels off to wheels on, he did six - six!! - PAs, (and none of them short).

mates rates

8th Jan 2011, 08:40

Brian,
East-west airlines of course!! Only aircraft in the fleet between about 1975-85 after the DC3 and before the F28's arrived.Most f/o's ex GA with 3000 hours single pilot IFR then another 3000 hours f/o F27 before command made them very experienced on type which really showed in the operation.Didn't realise it at the time, but the best of eleven airlines I worked for in my career.

Dora-9

8th Jan 2011, 19:07

Mates Rates – I’m doubtless leading with my chin now but I have to respond! Is this a fairly dumb answer to an equally dumb question? Or are you just stirring?

Your reasons for nominating EWA make it sound just like what it appeared from the outside to be, a GA operation, quite possibly a very slick one, but a GA operation nevertheless. Whatever else you might think of Ansett (or TAA, again observed from the outside), they were true airline operations.

A single type operation with 6000 hour captains, half of this from GA and the other half being totally indoctrinated into a very limited (country) operation? No cross pollination of ideas from other types, a small standards section promoting and perpetuating it’s own ideas and brain-washing the staff constantly about just how very good they are? No, actually I’m not talking about MMA in this case, but any outfit suffering from “the small airline” syndrome.

If they were that good, please explain to me why, when EWA took over TAA’s Northern Tasmanian operation in 1981 (ish), we constantly had the DCA FOI’s riding around in Ansett jumpseats so they could observe/police the cowboy antics of East West?

OK, Stationaire8, may I venture an opinion about your posting too? How would anyone truly and subjectively know who was the best Australian F.27 operator? Unless you were an FOI, I doubt there’s anyone out there who managed to fly for ALL of the operators, which is surely the only way to have an informed opinion? Actually I do have one good friend (now with CASA funnily enough) who managed to fly for MMA, EWA & Ansett plus actually having a start date with TAA – guess which one he was most scathing about, MR?? But most of us mere mortals flew for one operator and got to observe the others. Add to this the “pride in one’s job” factor, whereby you tended to be very proud of our own operator/employer but surely this is not really the basis for an informed unbiased opinion.

In my own case, I’ve been employed by just four airlines (well, I could argue 5) and observed another with many jumpseat rides and I always thought Ansett was very, very good! But also I admit that this is a subjective (I’d like to think perceptive) opinion based on not having all the facts.

tinpis

8th Jan 2011, 19:26

Many a lifes work in Ansett and whats left?
Sadly a hill of beans( counters)

By George

8th Jan 2011, 22:54

I spent 9 years in GA, flew a wide range of aircraft including multi-crew and single-pilot turbo-props. I had an inflated opinion of my abilities and could leap tall buildings in a single bound. I found the Ansett F27 operation hard work. It was a high standard, very rigid and disciplined flying compared to GA, a bit like joining the Luftwaffe. I found it a humbling experience, didn't enjoy it initially but looking back it was the best training I ever had.

training wheels

9th Jan 2011, 01:46

The company where I now work once operated a large fleet of Fokker F-27s, and I'm told there were at least two ex Ansett F-27s in their fleet; VH-FNC and VH-FNB which later became PK-MFR and PK-MFP. I recently made a quick visit to our hangar where a large graveyard of their retired F-27s exists looking for these two aircraft. Unfortunately, many of their regos have been scrubbed from their bodies, but some do still have the rego under their wings. Due to time constraints, I didn't get a chance to loook at al the F-27s in the graveyard but will continue for the search of VH-FNC and VH-FNB when I'm next there. Here are a few pics from that graveyard visit.

BTW, our company is one of a few operators around the world which still operates a full motion, level D, F-27 simulator which I've had the pleasure to fly. A very nice aircraft to fly if the sim is any indication of the real thing (which I'm sure it is). The simulator has 4 axis motion, colour visuals and was acquired from Air New Zealand back in the late 80's. It's still used by visiting crews from around the world including Airwork in New Zealand.

http://i54.tinypic.com/wqq8g3.jpg

http://i53.tinypic.com/6p6v0n.jpg

http://i56.tinypic.com/set4eo.jpg

http://i51.tinypic.com/2ms0rw0.jpg

skylane

9th Jan 2011, 03:22

What a sad sight!

Stationair8

9th Jan 2011, 05:09

No Dora-9, just interested in the way the various companies went about operating the aircraft and how they achieved that through SOPS and C&T standards.

Did the F-27's have an autopilot?

By George

9th Jan 2011, 07:06

Yes they called it an Auto-pilot but we called it 'The Hi-Jack Box'. Its real name on the 200 was the AL30-J. The 500 series had a better system. The AL30-J had a mind of its own and would do its own thing at times.

zlin77

9th Jan 2011, 09:48

Yes, from memory our East-West F 27's had a Smiths SEP2, worked fine....

Capn Bloggs

9th Jan 2011, 10:45

From my archives, an Ansett F27 VH-FNT flight at MEL including an engine shutdown, circa 1980-81.

aJIP1PqZwes

Note: this is a replacement YT video, changing the title. I've removed the original one I posted.

boocs

9th Jan 2011, 11:02

Bloggs!!

Thanks very much, gr8 video. Anymore???

b.

Capn Bloggs

9th Jan 2011, 11:46

Sorry Boocs, that's it at the moment. Got some jet (ie real) stuff I'll post when I get my act together. :ok:

puff

9th Jan 2011, 14:59

Bloggs that video is bloody fantastic. Anything similar please try and put it on youtube, stuff like that will be forever lost if it's not placed on places like youtube.

Because the net wasn't as big back before Ansett died there is very little video footage available of Ansett aircraft. Keep the memory alive - oh that noise of the screaming darts !!

Dora-9

9th Jan 2011, 19:18

Bloggs, you are a total star! That's a fantastic clip - and the noises bring a tingle to the spine!

Thanks indeed for posting this.

Just a thought - whatever happened to the practice of arriving at the bay with the left engine (prop) stopped? Quite tricky given that parking at Melbourne usually involved an acute right turn at the last bit. And yes, I've come unstuck trying to be a smart-arse - visions of the engineer, still clutching his marshalling bats, rolling around on the ground laughing hysterically....

Dora-9

9th Jan 2011, 19:32

And another thing Bloggs, I rather doubt that it was a training flight as the team are in uniform (Base Training was conducted wearing civvies, at least when I was on type - I left at the end of 1983).

Fantastic viewing.

Cheers.

tinpis

9th Jan 2011, 19:47

Was that enough gold braid for '86? Cant remembry

Only other Bloggs video I found was the Crew Lounge :hmm:
Seems to be Ansett-boilerless.

pJ96Ic7KK24&feature=player_embedded#!

john_tullamarine

9th Jan 2011, 22:52

Surely that video has to be earlier than 86 ? I can't recall whether any of the Mouse fleet was still in the old livery but I would bet that there were no 727s which hadn't been repainted to the blue scheme ? Donder would have been checking on the Mouse around that time so he probably will recall ?

Also, by that time, everyone had more gold bars than you could poke a stick at ...

So far as autopilots go, In the mid-70s (Melbourne) we had a mix of AL30 and SEP2, respectively useless and real fine. I can recall an asy session wherein we played with a series of engine shutdowns/relights on the SEP2 and it didn't even look like deviating from heading. Only a brave man would try something like that with the other system.

Dora-9

9th Jan 2011, 23:13

Well spotted john tullamarine!

While musing over the Capn Bloggs video and the improbability of shutting down engines on a line flight (the crew are in uniform after all), I realized that I recognized one of the voices.

I can now confirm the who/when/why. The video is mis-titled in that the session took place in 1980 or 1981 and was filmed by Rohan Craddock (his father was then a B727 captain; while Rohan was the Ansett visual media man). The pilots are, on the left the then Flight Capt (KP) and on the right the Asst Flight Capt (KW) – the three gold bars are correct for that period. The flight was specifically for filming purposes and was intended as part of a training film, though at the time this never saw the light of day.

Capn Bloggs

10th Jan 2011, 01:45

Dora, thanks for that. Video amended (original video removed from YT).

tasdevil.f27

10th Jan 2011, 02:00

Bloody fantastic, thanks for sharing Capn Bloggs. How I miss the sound of those machines.

Andy_RR

10th Jan 2011, 03:12

Someone may have already mentioned it earlier, but for those who wish to reminisce in the flesh, there is an F27 (VH-CAT) in the South Australian Aviation Museum (SAAM South Australian Aviation Museum. Pt Adelaide (http://www.saam.org.au/)) at Port Adelaide.

Lovely video Bloggs! The soundtrack stirs a few childhood memories in me.

Aye Ess

10th Jan 2011, 03:23

The Queensland Air Museum at Caloundra are restoring VH-FNQ (also registered VH-WAN). That aircraft was delivered to Ansett ANA in 1966....imagine the stories it could tell in it's 45 years.

peuce

10th Jan 2011, 05:00

Bloggs,

There's a lot of hissing and puffing and whoofing in that video.
I assume that's the pneumatics at work?
I also assume that the pumps must therefore be pretty close to the cockpit?

Dora-9

10th Jan 2011, 05:04

Pneumatics all in a compartment immediately behind the LH seat (formed part of the cockpit bulkhead). Lots of hissing!

airsupport

10th Jan 2011, 05:46

I assume that's the pneumatics at work?
I also assume that the pumps must therefore be pretty close to the cockpit?

Yes it is the pneumatic system you can hear, most of it including the 3 reservoirs are directly behind the Captain's seat, the compressors (pumps) are mounted on the accessory gearboxes behind the engines.

tinpis

10th Jan 2011, 09:19

Q: Why didn't the Armed forces of OZ operate the F27?

(come to think of it, it would make perfect transport for Rudd)

john_tullamarine

10th Jan 2011, 09:56

Why didn't the Armed forces of OZ operate the F27?

For the complementary reason the airlines did -

Considerations -

(a) cruise speed -

Draggie 200-210 against
Mouse 230-240

or thereabouts

(b) field performance -

Draggie good
Mouse not so good

The airlines were near to signing up for the Draggie instead of the Mouse because of field limitations ... UNTIL DCA's Donald George made the call to upgrade all airline country strips to 5000ft min runways - instantly the Mouse was able to operate without too much in the way of restriction and the sector time savings won the day.

Hence the airlines operated the Mouse (for the sector savings) and the RAAF/RAN the Draggie (for getting in and out of paddocks).

This story was told to me via George Claude D a senior DCA engineer for whom I worked in the early 70s (which is where my path first crossed that of Centaurus). George Claude, of similar age to Donald George, had worked with the top man in previous appointments and knew him quite well.

Somewhere in my files I have a HS/BAe report on the 748's soft field (for want of a better term) capabilities ... not too much in the way of payload .. but the ruts were deep enough to hide a chap of considerable girth ... the pix are quite impressive.

Aye Ess

11th Jan 2011, 03:29

Happened in SY,one night back in the late 60s or early 70s,a flight attendant (hostess in them days),inadvertantly walked through a spinning propeller as it was winding down after a flight. She was missed by the blades but got such a shock,she collapsed to the ground. On lookers raced to her,fearing what they would find,but she was OK. Now did this occur? has anyone anyone heard this occurrence or is it just 'urban myth' (Please note: just because YOU haven't heard of it,doesn't mean it IS an urban myth)

john_tullamarine

11th Jan 2011, 03:32

Hadn't heard that tale .. and couldn't see it being real.

... but, apparently, there was a ground staffer who, on a dirty night, put his head down at SYD and ran part way through the prop disc .. the tale was that one half of him ended up on the other side of the aircraft.

airsupport

11th Jan 2011, 03:58

This ridiculous weather and flooding in Brisbane at present reminded me of the terrible floods back in 1974, and how the Fokker Friendship operated where NO other aircraft could.

I was working up in Cairns and wanted to get back to Brisbane, managed to get the jump seat on a DC9 (back when you could) however we could not land in Brisbane and diverted to Sydney.

I finally got back home to Brisbane from Sydney in the jump seat of an Ansett F27, unbelievable sight as we landed with water lapping the runway, had to back track on the main runway as the taxiways were all under water or had cows grazing next to them.

Never so pleased to be on an F27. :ok:

Dora-9

11th Jan 2011, 04:01

Possibly an urban myth, although I had heard a remarkably similar story.

During an enquiry into a potential prop - striking - a -passenger incident, irritated when both the Traffic Officer and Ground Engineer seemed unconcerned, John Dorward (then the DFO) went ballistic and quoted this story:

It was at SYD, involved (yet another) TWU dispute which resulted in staff loading and unloading aircraft, late at night and staff member allegedly had "had a few", then walked into a running down propellor, subsequently collapsing in shock when he realized what he had done...

megle2

11th Jan 2011, 05:34

Anyone remember if the old Brisbane Airport escaped flooding in 74??

airsupport

11th Jan 2011, 05:42

Anyone remember if the old Brisbane Airport escaped flooding in 74??

You are joking right, or taking the pi$$. :rolleyes:

See post just above. ;)

That was the OLD airport, closed for days to most flights, only airliner that managed to get in was the F27. :ok:

MTOW

11th Jan 2011, 05:57

I heard the same story. Incredibly lucky if if was true. Heard a similar story of a ground crew guy tackling a woman (quite forcefully - and necessarily) to stop her walking through a spinning prop disc, and the "lady", who considered herself to be quite important, going ballistic and wanting the guy to be charged for assaulting her. She couldn't bring herself to admit how close her stupidity had come to having her kill herself and insisted his actions were quite unnecessary.

Speaking of spinning F27 props... at Devonport and Wynyard, (or was it just Wynyard?), where the wingtip could quite literally hang out over the carpark when you parked the 40,000 lb dogwhistle for the night, (and the taxi would be there, parked nose in up against the low wire fence - what passed for security in those now far off days pre-9/11), it was a point if honour for the Melbourne AN pilots to complete the paperwork, install the bungs, pitot/static covers and undercarriage locks (this last item sometimes a dirty business) and be sitting in the taxi waiting for the two girls before the props had run down.

The luverly local AN groundstaff used to do the cleaning, remove the potty (which they'd leave under the tail for the night so it didn't 'smell up' the aircraft) and lock the aircraft up for the night.

Someone mentioned shutting one down for taxi. On the Track Trip, some captains allowed their inner cowboy to surface and would sometimes shut both engines down and coast in for the final few metres to the parking spot. (The aim was to judge it right so you didn't have to brake to come to a stop on the spot.)

In Alice one day, the AN F27 came in with its load of pax, many of whom would be transferring to the AN B727 that was waiting on the tarmac along with the TAA 727 and the TAA F27, (which had won the race that day by a matter of minutes).

With quite a potential audience of fellow aviators, to say nothing of the passengers, the AN F27 captain caged both donks just as he entered the main tarmac, with more than enough speed up to easily make it to the parking spot.

Just after he shut down his engines, the following message, spoken with some sense of urgency, was heard over the radio: "Foxtrot November Quebec, hold position!"

(Of course), the F27 captain applied his brakes immediately and the aircraft came to a (very silent) stop.

Silence reigned for about twenty seconds before the F27 pilot called the tower, asking (very annoyed) why he'd been told to stop.

The Tower (a very different voice) replied with: "Foxtrot November Quebec, I'd didn't ask you stop."

No one ever admitted to doing it, but it can be safely assumed that there was a crew in the cockpit of one of the Boeings (or perhaps the TAA F27) chuckling away to themselves as the very embarrassed AN crew had to start an engine to make the final 30 meters of their journey.

There were also the stories of the TAA and Ansett F27s swapping one of their FAs (always the junior girl) for the middle sector of the Track Trip (Katherine to Tennant Creek or vice versa). (There was alwys the worry that one of the aircraft would go u/s, so the first aircraft never got airborne before the second one had both engines running.) The pax absolutely loved it, of course, but you can only image what a career-ender it would be for both captains in this day and age, where you could guarantee a film clip would appear on YouTube within 24 hours.

I'm told many photographs exist proving this to have happened.

Capn Bloggs

11th Jan 2011, 07:52

The Tower (a very different voice) replied with: "Foxtrot November Quebec, I'd didn't ask you stop."
10/10!
http://www.runemasterstudios.com/graemlins/images/roflmao.gif

megle2

11th Jan 2011, 08:04

So airsupport care to make a prediction for BN in the next 48 hours?

Dora-9

11th Jan 2011, 08:04

Not that I would ever do this (of course), but FA swapping on the middle (TC - TD) sector of the "Track Trip" was very common.

By George

11th Jan 2011, 09:10

Not to mention swapping uniforms between the pilots and female F/A's. Alice Springs rings a bell.

airsupport

11th Jan 2011, 18:11

So airsupport care to make a prediction for BN in the next 48 hours?

IF the predictions of the flood levels are accurate, some 2 metres higher than in 1974 by late tomorrow (Thursday), then it is not rocket science, the new Brisbane Airport will be flooded and closed just as the old one was in 1974.

IF they are right about the heights.

tinpis

11th Jan 2011, 19:12

Not to mention swapping uniforms between the pilots and female F/A's. Alice Springs rings a bell.

Nice to be that slim again :(

tinpis

12th Jan 2011, 10:24

The Frugal was also a good haven for those that couldn't manage
Screw it all up and hey, you went back to the Fokker
Want there someone endorsed on every plane in the fleet?

MTOW

12th Jan 2011, 20:06

What was the definition of '4 on the floor'?

Nothing to do with cars and gearboxes, but an apt description of a Friendship crew on an overnight in Mildura.

donderwolkje

13th Jan 2011, 01:39

Arrrrr yes, room under the stairs and the tartan bar round the corner if you did a quick change and beat closing time.
lot's of girls were quicker into civies than some tech crew.

Regards

Aye Ess

13th Jan 2011, 02:11

This I heard in mid 1970s. When the 2 airlines,oh let's call them Ansett & TAA,used to race each other Brisbane,Maryborough,Bundaberg,then wait all day for the race back in the afternoon. As the wait in Bundy was considerable,crews secured the aircraft & went to the motel for a few hours.

Upon return to the airport in the afternoon it was a rush to get away first. However,on one occasion the TAA crew had lost the key to the door of their F27. Ansett,loaded up & casually departed whilst the TAA boys searched pockets,jackets,nav bags for the key. Desperate times call for desperate measures, & the airport groundsman with his enormous set of keys finally found one that opened the lock. Pax embarked & flight set off,somewhat late.

Now,has anyone else heard that story or indeed been one of the unnamed characters?

john_tullamarine

13th Jan 2011, 03:43

if you did a quick change and beat closing time

You can have the Hiltons and Sheratons. I reckon the Grand was the best pub we stayed in across the network.

Stationair8

20th Jan 2011, 22:17

The good folks on King and Flinder's Island must have felt a downgrade in the service when Ansett removed the F-27's off the run and replaced them with the TAA Queenair and then Air Tasmania's DC-3 . Likewise the western Queensland travellers must have felt the same way when the Jetstream and then later the Flight West B200's took over from the F-27.

Did Ansett run Melbourne to Mount Gambier with the F-27?

The original 09/27 at Wynyard, was that used by the Fokkers or was the new runway to the south built by the time they replaced the DC-3/4's?

Having look at that temporary gravel strip at Devonport via google, it would have been fairly short about 1000-1100 metres compared to the original 06/24, so it would have been fairly restrictive operations for TAA/Ansett Fokkers?

skylane

21st Jan 2011, 06:29

Talking about this thread in the crew room, one of the lads mentioned that either a TAA or Ansett F-27 clipped a hangar taxying in one night at Launceston in about 1957. Any one know the details?

WMUOSF

21st Jan 2011, 21:46

Hi Stationair8
Ansett operated F27 mel-hlt-mgb-adl and return next day.

donderwolkje

21st Jan 2011, 23:47

IIRC we operated MEL/HLT/MGB, overnight and reverse in the very early hours next day.
Airlines of SA flew ADL/MGB/ADL.
It was allways wet, dark and cold departing MGB and usually the "air" had escaped overnight requiring a prolonged engine run before departure, followed by an NDB into HLT where you didn't even get the wheels into the top of the fog before departing to MEL.

Regards

Dora-9

22nd Jan 2011, 02:37

Stationar8:

I guess the sequence flown depended on the period.

During my first "tour"(1970-1974) we flew either ML-HML-MGB-ADL, overnighted ADL and then flew the return the following day or flew ML-HML-MGB-AD, had the aircaft reconfigured as a freighter, returning direct to ML around midnight. The other way was worse, departing ML around 0300 for AD, hanging around in the crew room for a few hours then flew (with the aircraft reconfigured was more as a pax aircraft) AD-MGB-HML-ML.

But the ASA pilots were stridently claiming that AD-MGB was "theirs", so by the time I flew the F.27 again (1978-1982) we flew ML-HML-MGB, overnighted MGB, returning the next day.

Stationair8

22nd Jan 2011, 04:14

Welcome back Dora-9, thanks for that info.

With the senority system at Ansett and TAA, did you have to take a command on the F-27, or could you wait for a command slot to come up on the DC-9/B727?

When operating into most country ports, the F-27 would have required alternate fuel due to only having 1 x ADF and 1 x VOR, and places like Mt Gambier, Kingscote, Port Lincoln, Wynyard, King Island, Flinders Island only have a NDB approach or did the DME Homing negate the alternate fuel requirement?

Dora-9

22nd Jan 2011, 10:46

Good questions Stationair8, I’ll attempt to answer.

“With the senority system at Ansett and TAA, did you have to take a command on the F-27, or could you wait for a command slot to come up on the DC-9/B727?”

In the early 70’s all Initial Commands were supposed to be only on the F.27 or DC-4/Carvair. Driven I think by certain Brisbane-based pilots, the AFAP opposed this and wanted commands to be done on whatever type your seniority allowed; the change occurred around 1978. Their justification was that this was unfairly restrictive on the BNE-based pilots, as the vast majority of F.27 flying in the Ansett network was Melbourne based. They either had to wait a lot longer than their southern compatriots or transfer to Melbourne (I confess at the time I had no sympathy for this argument; now that I’m retired in Queensland I fully understand!).

Also in some circles getting a command on the Friendship was perceived as “hard” and the Melbourne Checkers regarded as hard-line zealots. It was certainly easier to simply swap seats on your existing type which you already knew (say the DC-9). Further the mainline jet operation virtually never went OCTA and you generally had much better support wherever you went – it was much less demanding than the F.27 operation. The downside of staying in your preferred base and existing type was that it would/could cost you years extra to get into the left hand seat.

“When operating into most country ports, the F-27 would have required alternate fuel due to only having 1 x ADF and 1 x VOR, and places like Mt Gambier, Kingscote, Port Lincoln, Wynyard, King Island, Flinders Island only have a NDB approach or did the DME Homing negate the alternate fuel requirement?”

I’m really straining to remember this! I don’t recall having to carry an alternate for (say) WNY because of only having a single ADF, so I think the DME Homing counted as the second approach possibility. Anyone else got a comment here?

But I also seem to recall that inevitably we carried round trip fuel anyway. In those days carrying required fuel only was a totally foreign concept, and notion that it costs fuel to carry extra fuel was barely understood. You simply chucked on as much fuel as you wanted, padded it out, then added a bit more, and it was never queried. So very different to my next employer!

skylane

24th Jan 2011, 21:31

You are right Dora-9, one ADF plus DME gave you the two aids and met the alternate requirement.

john_tullamarine

25th Jan 2011, 00:37

Then there were those of us silly enough to try a practice DME letdown in the aircraft for fun .... generally the fun was had by the guy in the other seat smirking and chuckling away to himself. (For the younger folk, a DME letdown was a tad different to a DME arrival).

skylane

25th Jan 2011, 07:43

Yes, 150 kias, 30 degee heading changes, best G/S to the aid. Overhead, turn onto the outbound heading and descend!. The DME homing was good for places like Strahan, where the NDB range was about 30 nm, and the DME would lock in at about 65 DME, or in the simulator with a cup of coffee and a biscuit!

Capt Fathom

25th Jan 2011, 09:32

Overhead, turn onto the outbound heading and descend!

Assuming of course that you have arrived in the appropriate sector. If not, you had to do the entry procedure and home your way back over the top again! :ouch:

By George

26th Jan 2011, 01:00

I can remember the last of the VARs' Mangalore and Hobart, what a horrible thing they were. Doing one in a jet would be very exciting.

skylane

26th Jan 2011, 02:44

Actually, doing a VAR letdown in a jet was no different to slower aircraft. Usually, the final approach leg was aligned pretty close to the runway in some cases. DPO inbound leg got you visual to turn left for landing 06, or circle for 24. LT from memory was almost aligned with 32 and HB 12.

Tracking on the aural leg was easy, the null being quite distinctive. Going SRN - SY via overhead DPO and FLI allowed you to track on the DPO VAR south western aural leg from SRN and track to FLI on the NE leg. This was in the days when the only VOR was MEL, WON, SY.

Stationair8

27th Jan 2011, 01:14

When did East-West stop operating the F-27?
What routes did East-West run the F-27 on over the last year of operations?

Did Ansett-Express operate the F-27, or only the F-28 and F-50?

tinpis

27th Jan 2011, 09:54

Are you writing a spotters guide Stationair8?
I dont think anyone paid this much attention to the frugal when it was operating :hmm:

Dog One

9th Feb 2011, 05:34

Any one remember the cross wind limitations? Must have been reasonable to handle the gentle sea breezes at DPO

john_tullamarine

9th Feb 2011, 06:57

The RLD AFM limit was 30kt at 50ft. DCA, in its wisdom, couldn't countenance this so reduced it to the local figure.

Dora-9

10th Feb 2011, 10:02

I seem to recall it was 22 knots, but miraculously it became 30 knots AFTER the F.27 had left the DCA Flying Unit. Does this ring a bell??

MTOW

10th Feb 2011, 21:21

I remember that the FSU blokes at damn near every outport knew the F27's x-wind limitations and no matter what the wind was, always reported the wind to the incoming crews as just under that limit - or they wouldn't get their mail and morning papers!

I certainly remember doing the odd approach looking at the runway through the DV window.

I think it was the windsock at Flinders Island that was reputed to have a brick in it.

john_tullamarine

10th Feb 2011, 21:44

I seem to recall it was 22 knots, but miraculously it became 30 knots AFTER the F.27 had left the DCA Flying Unit. Does this ring a bell??

'twas at the Flying Unit where I first encountered the problem. I went to bat to have the local DCA limit increased to the RLD certification limit. Jack A, bless his little cottonsocks, and I went head to head. Jack won and I retired to Essendon to lick my wounds.

If I recall from AN, later on, we still had the lower limit.

Now, does that indicate that Dora-9 was at the Flying Unit at some stage - we may, then, each know the other.

I remember that the FSU blokes at damn near every outport knew the F27's x-wind limitations and no matter what the wind was, always reported the wind to the incoming crews as just under that limit - or they wouldn't get their mail and morning papers!

Absolutely - the crews, on the other hand, knew drift angles against speed by memory

I certainly remember doing the odd approach looking at the runway through the DV window.

I can recall, as an F/O, one landing at Cooma with Peter X (mustn't get too close to identifying him). I can't recall the runway directions now but

(a) FSU was concerned that we were landing on the wrong runway

(b) I was watching the runway - over his shoulder - through Peter's side window - not the DV ...

and he greased it on in his normal laid back fashion.

Stationair8

7th Mar 2011, 06:03

Must be a few more stories out in Pprune land about the old Fokker?

Tinnpis you dried out yet in Darwhine?

Who crewed the F-27's when Airnorth operated them in the dispute?

cac_sabre

11th Mar 2011, 12:41

http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r68/sabrejet/ewas.jpg
dunno what it was doing in Perth

tinpis

11th Mar 2011, 20:18

Who crewed the F-27's when Airnorth operated them in the dispute?
Stationair8 is offline Report Post Reply

Air Cruising?

tinpis

12th Mar 2011, 09:22

How un-Ansett is this?
No check list, no headphones no EffOh gold bars no brief nothin' just a call for "Dos!" and they swing into action
Hmm....was that an RD 45?

3QSv3Gs4FHU&playnext=1&list=PL88114E565E2A1963

cac_sabre

12th Mar 2011, 10:00

couldnt hear anything anyway! he had earplugs in

Ex FSO GRIFFO

12th Mar 2011, 10:23

One thing I do notice guys / gals......

At any 'bash', you can always pick the ex-F-27 guys....they're the ones all wearing the hearing aids.....

Those 'Darts' have a lot to answer for....

Not wishing to insult anyone, just an observation, among some of my 'favourite' acquaintances.....

Cheers:ok:

SOPS

12th Mar 2011, 10:27

Cac....do you know the date that photo was taken????

cac_sabre

12th Mar 2011, 10:46

I have no recollection of taking the pic, I am guessing mid to late 80s before the pilots' err..... strike thingie..

SOPS

12th Mar 2011, 10:50

Yeh..if it was around 86/87 it was doing (I think) an around Australia "cruise" charter type of thing..as I say..I think:O

bankrunner

12th Mar 2011, 10:56

tinpis, what's the bet the uniformless guy on the right is actually the CP? :}

Reminds me of a GA operator I once worked for... :E

tinpis

12th Mar 2011, 21:08

Yeh..if it was around 86/87 it was doing (I think) an around Australia "cruise" charter type of thing..as I say..I think

ANSW had "Budgies" in '86 they had a track trip going then.
There was a VERY senior FO lived in a caravan in the Ansett carpark?? he was on the Solent when it was going anyone remember him?

john_tullamarine

12th Mar 2011, 21:31

How un-Ansett is this?

As I recall, about the right height for Wynyard-Devon

cac_sabre

12th Mar 2011, 23:12

In boom times of excesses, the 727 in the background was one of three operated by Perth based tycoons: Bond, Holmes a Court and Stowe, I think that one is the Stowe jet.
http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r68/sabrejet/fcdPh.jpg

Dora-9

13th Mar 2011, 06:22

I THINK the ANSW F.27-500’s pictured at Perth were possibly on Sydney Stock Exchange charters. The purpose was to show interested investors various mines and mining projects around the country.

The first one was operated by Ansett in October 1980. I operated the first part of the sequence, BNE-Gladstone-Moranbah-Mackay-Mt Isa-Gove-Darwin, over several days in VH-FNU. Another crew took the aircraft around the coast via Perth.

Subsequently the charters over the next few years were operated by ANSW -500’s, presumably because of the greater seating capacity

Delta_Foxtrot

13th Mar 2011, 07:30

...or shoulder harness...:=

sixtiesrelic

13th Mar 2011, 10:07

That's a heavy DC-3 with 40 seconds takeoff run and the slow speed of 104 to 110K.

Aye Ess

13th Mar 2011, 10:12

Ha,I thought the same thing Sixties. The end of the r/w just slid under the nose with no perceivable take off. Then the 'climb out' was tree top height for all segments.

Still,it makes the hairs stand up hearing that throaty growl of a DC3's engines (for us old fellas anyway)

tinpis

13th Mar 2011, 11:33

Probably had a big load of baking powder on board. :hmm:

34R

14th Mar 2011, 12:29

Not sure if this has been posted yet but couldn't resist...

Hope none of you boys were responsible!!!:= Love it!!

YouTube - Ansett Close Call - 1971 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjU4cWDRwKI)

Jackbr

15th Mar 2011, 08:02

Any of you remember the Airlines of New South Wales guys who were endorsed on both the F-27 and the Sandringham Flying Boats? I should think those two aircraft would have been polar opposites flying wise, yet likely a lot of fun (Except maybe commuting between SYD and Rose Bay for work)

I think all the Airlines of New South Wales Hostesses also flew the F-27 and Flying Boats...maybe it was just some of them

Flying Boats left the fleet in late '74.

sixtiesrelic

15th Mar 2011, 10:12

There was a group of specialist hostesses (about a fifth) who crewed 'the boat" as well as the F27 and the DC-3.

tinpis

16th Mar 2011, 11:21

I remember a very senior F27 FO in ANSW in 86 had been on the boats
I think there was a helicopter one as well

cac_sabre

20th Mar 2011, 07:10

http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r68/sabrejet/ac1.jpg
http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r68/sabrejet/ac2.jpg

Stationair8

21st Mar 2011, 03:34

What is a specialised hostess?

Noiced that whoever was in charge of hostess recruiting at AnsettNSW/Ansett Express in the late 80's certainly had a good eye for lovely ladies!

Xcel

21st Mar 2011, 03:43

Why didn't Fokker use a different nose and front windows on the f50 - heard that it is the only thing stopping it being a 250 kt + machine...

Thoughts?

B772

21st Mar 2011, 10:30

Xcel. Do not forget the F50 was certified as a F27-050 and not as a new type. The P&W powered F50 was about 30 kts faster than the RR powered F27. Optimum cruise altitude was approx. 5,000 ft higher. All this with less fuel burn and a 'big' increase in range.

Jackbr

21st Mar 2011, 10:36

I assume a "specialist" hostess was simply a Cabin Crew member who was trained across the whole Airlines of NSW fleet, including the Flying Boat, as opposed to just the F-27 and DC-3

Stationair8

22nd Mar 2011, 04:58

The good old Aircruising Fokkers, how many times did we have the pleasure of unloading and loading them on hot days!

donderwolkje

22nd Mar 2011, 06:47

Xcel

I believe it is the flight deck over head roof stucture, not so much the window area that needed a redesign, so to keep it a same type approval it stayed as is..

Regards

sixtiesrelic

22nd Mar 2011, 06:58

I used the term specalist hostess off the top of my head to denote that they were crewing the boats as well as the other two aircraft.
It was the senior girls who got to crew the boats.
My wife was one but can't remember the ins and outs of the cabin configuration now.

CharlieLimaX-Ray

22nd Mar 2011, 07:09

"Specialist Hostie", aren't they the ones looking for a wealthy husband?

Did Ansett NSW operate a year round service to Cooma or was it only for the ski season? No doubt would have been a very interesting trip down from Sydney on a bad day, good thing for junior captains to bid for!

tinpis

22nd Mar 2011, 11:37

Cooma was regular. No drama, there was always Canberra to bolt into.
Mostly the only problem was the birds in the back trying to keep control of the lippy hooray-Henry ski arsehats.

emeritus

22nd Mar 2011, 13:43

Ah yes...I remember the posers wandering around the Syd terminal on friday afternoons in their skiing gear and seeing them coming off the flt from CMA on sundays with various limbs in plaster!!:D

Emeritus

vitamin B

24th Mar 2011, 03:45

I very seldom post but could not resist this thread. I used to fly regularly to NQ once a month and my favourite flight was the Sunday morning honeymoon special out of BNE for Proserpine/TV/and points in between TV and CNS.
I used to request row 10 seats and sat back and received exceptional services from the hostesses (as they used to be called in those days). The remainder of the passengers were generally starry eyed on the second day of married life en route to the Barrier Reef islands on honey moon. The furtherest thoughts from their minds was lunch and numerous cool beers.
Life is much more different now with a meal tray thrown down in front of you and woe betide you if it hasn't been cleaned up within 10 minutes - whipped out from under your hand and placed back in hte trolley in preparation for descent

An earlier post referred to Capt. Rex who left the pin in the nose wheel. Flew many a trip with him on the BDB-BNE route when I was a young lad.

Vitamin B :ok:

Stationair8

14th Apr 2011, 03:46

Nice little bit of nostalgia on the idiot box last week.

During an interview with actor Andrew McFarlane they showed some footage from the TV series Flying Doctors, and in the background was the Air NSW F-27 on the ground at Broken Hill.

Capn Bloggs

16th Apr 2011, 09:10

Another bit of footage from the "old tapes":

YouTube - Ansett F27 at Williamtown, 1985

Capn Bloggs

16th Apr 2011, 11:40

Well I'll be! I thought the "colour" was just part of the Willy landscaping! :}

frigatebird

22nd Apr 2011, 21:44

cac sabre
Here's a link for you, forwarded to me by an ex-RAN Petty Officer and current Aero Club Cessna flyer.
fb

Model Makers—Young C. Park (http://www.craftsmanshipmuseum.com/park.htm)

cac_sabre

23rd Apr 2011, 00:34

seen this guys work before..its exquisite and quite humbling! its enough to make one quit the hobbydue feelings of inadequacy

frigatebird

23rd Apr 2011, 06:37

Don't do that.. This industry needs all the enthusiasts it can get , to counteract the 'wackers'. Keep up your good work. Managed to buy a plastic model of a Twin Otter once, and put it together - looks a bit worse for wear now. (After a Zero and a Wildcat, when working in the area of their wartime exploits). Have plastic ATR and Saab models that just clipped together - they were no challenge - but they bring back good memories when I see them in the display case. Would like one of a Super KingAir, but they are harder to source. Why is it that WW11 fighters and Century series jet fighters are plentiful in hobby shops, but real world popular modern classics like QueenAir or KingAir don't make it onto the shelves?
Cheers

Aye Ess

23rd Apr 2011, 08:49

Agree with you 100% Frigate. As an aviation artist I frequent aviation art websites,only to find scarce art work of airliners,GA & commuters....mainly military types.

Cac-sabre,I too find your models marvelous. Your attention to detail in 3 dimensions is outstanding. I'm sure many of us would like to see more.

Alan

Andu

23rd Apr 2011, 08:51

The F27 into Willy brings back a few memories... The circuit, shared by types with such different performance, could present both the F18 and F27 drivers with a challenge. The F18s rejoined through initial at 1500' (and 350+ knots?) and the F27s joined the circuit at 1000' and ~130 knots.

The system worked a treat... until one of the MEL F27 check captains came up to show the Sydney drivers how it should be done. (Because most of the SYD checkies didn't even rate a command in MEL... and as for the SYD line captains, most of them wouldn't even rate a block as an FO in Melbourne, so how could they possibly be up to Melbourne's high standards?)

The MEL checkie was horrified when a SYD pilot on is initial command check blithely joined the circuit at 1000' as an F18 thundered by 500' (and ****ing miles away!!) above him. Instant fail! Wouldn't even let him fly the aircraft back to Sydney.

The failed candidate has been flying in the left seat of a B747 for quite some years now.

angry ant

23rd Apr 2011, 13:58

Wouldn't be r. tu--er, per chance!

Angry A

MTOW

24th Apr 2011, 01:23

Is Storm Boy flying 747s now?

Stationair8

25th Apr 2011, 07:24

The Melbourne "skygod's" on the F-27 must have been a delight to fly with!

Could they walk on water and did they wear their undies on the outside of their uniforms?

SIUYA

25th Apr 2011, 09:04

The Melbourne "skygod's" on the F-27 must have been a delight to fly with!

In the early 80's, a couple were great - the rest weren't all that much fun though. Sometimes on a check flight you just KNEW you'd already fcuked-up the moment you walked out your front door on the way to work for a check with some of those pr1cks.

They know who they were.............DON'T YOU! :=

The depths of bastardry some of them would go to on checks was something else again!

There were some really great guys who moved onto the F27 as their first command during that period! And they were a pleasure to fly with. But not many of the check captains were unfortunately. :{

Like i said, there were a few exceptions! And they were good guys too, who really taught you to understand WHY you'd 'goofed' something on a check whenever it happened (which for me was usually every time....my excuse is that no-one's perfect! :)).

I was really relieved to finally move on from the 'mouse' to (thank God) the B727, which was well away from where many of the said folks who thought they could walk on water and seemed as though they wore their undies on the outside of their uniforms moved to (the B737 fleet) at that time.

Andu

25th Apr 2011, 12:22

Angry Ant, if it was the...ummm... individual... you not so cryptically mentioned who the Melbourne checkie had failed, the Melbourne checkie would never have made it back to Melbourne - because he would have been waylaid by just about every other Sydney pilot and plied with endless beers or the beverage of his choice for as long as he wanted to keep consuming it.

sixtiesrelic

25th Apr 2011, 21:06

Thank God I was in Brissy. Our checkies were great.

littlescrubba

7th May 2012, 08:38

:ouch: Hello mate, my name is Phil and on the day of the crash of the TAA F-27, I was the Corporal in charge of the Fuel Farms. Both myself and my offsider were hosing down the old No 1 Fuel Farm at the back of Fire Section, of cobwebs on the fuel tanks, when Dave Eli called out to me to come over and have a look at this aircraft!

We were both standing there at the back fence of the compound as Dave said, isn't that Fokker too far over to the right, which I answered yes and he's decending way too fast. Within seconds it hit as you said just a smidgen before the crash barrier and dust and bits of aircraft were beginning to fly into the air. But just before the aircraft hit the ground, the Crash Alarm went off in our ears, and the Fire Tenders were just beginning to switch on, when the Fokker crashed.

It certainly did head for the 482 Test Cell and the 26,000ltr yellow tanker, parked outside the Test Cell compound. We waited for the impact as the F-27 slewed around on its left wing, seeing that the left undercarriage had been torn away, but part of the aircraft was still over hanging the runway by a small amount!

At that instant three F-111's flew overhead, returning from a mission and were short of fuel. ATC gave one aircraft the ok to land from the Southern end, and was told to keep over to the left of the runway, as there were three appliances in attendance to a plane crash. The first F-111 landed and it ended up running out of runway, while attempting to avoid the crash scene and ran off the strip and ended up in the scrub at the Northern end, causing one of the Fire Engines to run up to it.

In the meantime a second F-111 decided to land on the other airstrip from over the Ipswich end, but also burned out its brakes and ran off the airstrip just stopping prior to the fencing right out the back of the 3AD huge Hanger.

The third F-111 decided to divert to Brisbane Airport and ran out of fuel on the main runway, and was towed from the runway and not holding many aircraft up at all.

I remember reading in the Amberley Strike Magazine about what had happened, at it was a record that still stands, for the number of plane crashes at the one time at Amberley ha-ha.

We were amazed to be in the right spot at the right time, plus to be able to listen to the Fire Section tower sending Fire Tenders to the different aircraft. The third aircraft had a small back-up water tanker rush to it's aid and I said to Dave, geez if the third F-111 comes in and crashes as well, I bet we get called out with bloody buckets of water and made to run the length of the runway ha-ha.

So when I just happened to see your article I thought I had to contact you to verify what happened that day my friend?

Take care,

littlescrubba :ok:

Aye Ess

7th May 2012, 21:56

Aviation art. Acrylic on stretched canvas 30cm x 60cm 'TAA F27'

http://i1032.photobucket.com/albums/a401/alan_spears/f27sunset.jpg

40cm x 50cm. VH-TQQ is the one that was written off at Amberley.

http://i1032.photobucket.com/albums/a401/alan_spears/PB120089-1.jpg?t=1336427615

Chadzat

7th May 2012, 22:40

Alan, spectacular as always. Who said you dont 'do' backgrounds?! :D

saintmikeII

8th Jan 2013, 03:36

Sorry! not a snow flakes chance in hell of the F27-500 getting anywhere near that. Best I ever saw was one at F210 and that was on the ferry from Holland (between Bali and Darwin I think).

davesoda727

28th Jul 2015, 05:37

G'day all,

I have a en Ansett F-27 Instrument panel at home and I'd like to get stuck into building it back up. Does anyone have some reference material I could borrow or use for the correct instruments?

And does anyone have any instruments they'd be prepared to part with?

Cheers
Dave

Typhoon650

31st Jul 2015, 01:29

I can remember, as a young kid, flying into Grafton on an East West Fokker Friendship.
I can also remember descending to the runway at Grafton in fog and the pilot pulling back sharply on the elevator as he avoided the boundary fence! I think maybe a little low on final. He was definitely low as I can clearly remember the features of the typical farm fence as it whizzed by!
Watching those Fokkers start up, back when you could stand next to a waist high fence at the end of the apron, and those screaming little Dart engines is what hooked me on aviation.

Dora-9

31st Jul 2015, 02:45

...those screaming little Dart engines...What's this "little" business?

dhavillandpilot

31st Jul 2015, 11:43

Darts the best sound in aviation, especially the 528x

Fris B. Fairing

31st Jul 2015, 21:57

Not the Dart.

I always think it's the Merlin or Allison.

Dora-9

31st Jul 2015, 23:26

No Fris B., the Dart. I don't recall anything that distinctive with the Allison, and just how many times did you hear a Merlin in your working day?

Who can recall the joys of "taxying by ear" in the Friendship? Power up to 11,000 rpm, release the brakes as you slowly advanced the levers until you just heard the props bite then, once you'd reached a reasonable taxi speed, slightly retard the levers until you heard the props go back into Ground Fine.

I was recently given a DVD made from a 1970's video of F.27's on the ramp at Tullamarine - the visuals were wonderful but it was the sounds that made me break out in goosebumps...

Stationair8

17th Sep 2015, 22:18

Nice photo on the Airways Museum/ Civil Aviation Historical
Society Facebook page of an Ansett-ANA F27 at Devonport in 1968.

Centaurus

18th Sep 2015, 01:10

The DCA Flying Unit had a couple of F27 Mk1's in the 1960's. All the pilots were ex RAAF wartime or peacetime. One of them had been a Wing Commander at the RAAF VIP squadron at Canberra when I was there.
After I joined DCA I found out he was the check captain on the F27 and he did my F27 endorsement. He was one of the most relaxed pilots I had ever flown with and one of the few RAAF pilots with a double Air Force Cross.

One day he ferried the DCA F27 from Essendon to Tullamarine for servicing and I was the co-pilot. We took off on EN 34 and landed Tulla 27 and then via Tulla 16 all the way to the TAA hangar at the southern end of Tulla. The first thing I noticed was he was taxiing using 30 or 60PSI (I can't quite remember the exact amount) torque on the engines which is a fair amount of prop bite on the Darts. All the way down 16 to the TAA hangar and even around the corners, the prop bite was there accompanied by the hissing of the brakes being dragged.

Even though we were now both civilian pilots, I still felt a bit shy of telling him I thought he was dragging the brakes against power. As my former CO he was a Wing Commander and I had been a mere flight lieutenant and now we were flying together gain seven years later in an F27.

Arriving at the TAA maintenance hangar, he cut the donks and set the parking brake. I went back to open the door and saw an airman (sorry, a TAA LAME) vigorously pointing at the left main wheels and rushing back to get a fire extinguisher. I peered outside and saw smoke and vapour coming from the wheels. Obviously the brakes had over-heated.

I told the boss who had a looked through his left window and said quite unconcernedly, "I wonder how that happened?" I could have said it was bloody obvious how it happened - You were taxiing brakes against power all the way from the intersection of 27 and 16 to TAA. But I kept quiet until the next day I was grabbed by the chief pilot who asked what happened after he received a call from TAA about a complete brake and tyre changed on both main landing gears due over-heating.

I said that in my opinion the captain had been using excessive power while taxiing and dragged the brakes to reduce taxy speed. The chief pilot may have believed me but in true loyalty to mates, style, he said his mate would never taxy in that manner and opined there must have been something wrong with the brakes to cause such a serious overheat. I could have said "Bull****" and that I saw the whole thing. But that would have been a waste of breath in the DCA Flying Unit in those days.

It was a good experience I suppose, since I had never seen hot brakes before. That was until the following day I was sent to TAA to ferry the F27 back to Essendon and a technician showed me the remains of the brakes and tyres on the hangar floor. Not a pretty sight, I tell you. And expensive, too. But no problem; it was only tax-payer's money..

Dora-9

18th Sep 2015, 19:39

Centaurus:

He clearly didn't know about the "joys of taxying the F27 by ear" - see the above post. Most times you'd amble around with 0 psi torque, it just took a little to get moving...

Stationair8

22nd Sep 2015, 05:12

What year did Ansett have their last intake of pilots that went on to the F27?

Had two instructors that got into the airlines in the early 1985, one that got into Ansett was pretty p@ssed to be sent onto the F27's as the other guy went into TAA and onto the Dc-9.

ACMS

22nd Sep 2015, 12:52

Guys joined late 1987 did a F27 ground school but waited and went on the F50.
So I guess the last to actually fly the F27 were early to mid 1987.

40years

3rd Jan 2016, 10:39

Did any of you gents have the experience in the 70's and 80's of being rosterd 'out of the blue' to fly your F27 on a real or practice SAR drop?
In other words, as a line crew, being told that your aircraft was in the process of having the galley removed, and a swarm of SAR officers from the Department would be loading a collection of rafts, stores, smoke floats and heliboxes which they intended to throw out the open rear door in flight. Further, they would be installing their own Heath-Robinson intercom system( which usually failed). Finally, one or two of these characters would brief you on the expected proceedings, including the various drop patterns to be conducted at 150 - 200 feet agl.:8 Any f..... questions!!!
As one of those down the back I would be interested in your memories and opinions of those times.

Brett Hinde

24th Mar 2020, 01:28

F50 routes in NSW: Sydney, Coffs Harbour, Ballina, Casino, Lismore, Dubbo, Wagga, Albury, Canberra (ACT), Cooma.

Also served at various times: Melbourne, Launceston and Hobart.

Probably others too.
Hello,
Just wondering if anyone had any formation on the Fokker aircraft that flew to Casino Nsw in the 1970/71 and the aircraft Rego.Only a little fella back then and trying to I'd that aircraft.From.what I remember it had the Delta paint scheme.
Thank You
Brett Hinde

Brett Hinde

24th Mar 2020, 04:04

Casino on a veeeery soggy day skipper with a lifetime on the Frugal (MT)says "Just keep flying the approach mate".
Well this old mate been in a few soggy situations himself before and I'm buggered if I see anything resembling land-ho.
Needless to say he takes control, points her a bit and we roll on and unlock the props.
Pax waiting at the gate said "I knew it was old M...we wouldn't be stuck here " :p

Hello,
Id be very interested on the flights into Casino around 1970/71.In particular the Rego number of the aircraft/aircrafts that were flown in there at this time.
Thanks Brett

kaz3g

24th Mar 2020, 09:35

MMA ran them to Rottnest, Geraldton and Carnarvon.

https://www.abc.net.au/local/photos/2014/12/09/4145337.htm

kaz3g

24th Mar 2020, 09:41

And there was the hijack at Alice Springs

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ansett_Airlines_Flight_232

Flyak

24th Mar 2020, 13:18

Flew SYD-NRA in late 1973 as a 6 year old unaccompanied minor in an Ansett F27. Still see that day clearly.

many times after that in that route to visit cousins on the farm.

‘twas a little noisy I recall. Back then noise was pretty good fun.

I was also mesmerised by the landing gear. Only second time in the air at that stage. (727 a few years earlier)

how life was...

Dora-9

24th Mar 2020, 18:47

kaz3g:

Are you sure about Rottnest Island? MMA's DC-3's were regular visitors, but I can't recall ever seeing an F,27 there.

Also, the claim in the article that MMA had TEN F.27's is incorrect.

greybeard

24th Mar 2020, 23:58

From my log book MMA had the following F-27

MMO, MMR, MMS, MMV, MMB( short time 100 series), MMU (also short time)

On loan FNA, FNG when F-28s were in major service.

Others may have been in transit but not flown by me as on F-28 then.

Dora-9

25th Mar 2020, 01:24

Greetings Phil! The MM* series F.27's weren't all there at the same time though. Did you ever take the F.27 into Rottnest?

Saintly

24th Apr 2020, 13:34

One has to wonder. Would F27's be any good in Australia now days? F50s still fly in Australia but there hasnt been an F27 in Australia for some time now

Mach E Avelli

24th Apr 2020, 21:41

They were a great aeroplane for their time, but by today’s standards extremely - and I mean extremely - noisy.
Also not fuel efficient, though right now that would not matter, but when fuel gets expensive again it would never compete with ATR or DHC.
Terrible in the summer due to lack of on ground air conditioning.
Most gone to scrap now, or 3rd world, or a few stripped out for freight. Plenty of cheap more modern alternatives parked awaiting new owners. Even the later F50 which was supposed to compete with DHC and ATR is obsolete, even though many would argue it is the more robust airframe. Problem is robust equals weight equals fuel and payload penalties.
But F27 a joy to fly, though ground handling took finesse.

deja vu

26th Apr 2020, 08:13

MMA ran them to Rottnest, Geraldton and Carnarvon.

https://www.abc.net.au/local/photos/2014/12/09/4145337.htm

In 1970 I was temporarily based on Barrow Island and every 2 days or so I would bring mail in my PA28 to meet the MMA F27 at Onslow, then take mail and ice cream back to Barrow. F27 would then go onto Dampier and Headland. I'm sure MMA serviced many more WA ports than mentioned above.

Plastic fantastic

27th Apr 2020, 02:19

Aaah, Stormboy !

A man with quite a history even beyond the F27.

Anyone know if he is still flying somewhere?

georgetw

27th Apr 2020, 03:30

In 1966 MMA where flying Darwin -Derby- Broome then Perth direct. The take of at Broome was interesting as the aircraft was over the wing fueled and the take off calls where V1 then LAST FLARE!!

ricketyback

6th Dec 2022, 23:53

DC3 only!

ricketyback

2nd Apr 2023, 06:37

There were a number of flame-outs but surprisingly they were almost all in Australia! The F50 was grounded and crews went back on the F27 until changes were made to (from my depleted memory) the fuel burners and engine intake.

Magnetomick

2nd Apr 2023, 07:20

Does anyone remember John Wall Ansett F27 skipper?

tossbag

2nd Apr 2023, 10:43

I said that in my opinion the captain had been using excessive power while taxiing and dragged the brakes to reduce taxy speed.

Wouldn't it have been better to say: "Dunno mate, Captain was taxying it"

Dora-9

2nd Apr 2023, 19:32

"Dunno mate, Captain was taxying it"

On Ansett F.27s at least, ONLY the captain could taxy (NWS wheel on the LHS only). I think the other operators were the same(?).

Givelda

3rd Apr 2023, 02:10

The TAA F27's had NWS on both sides and I seemed it was powered by everything except steam - mechanical, pneumatics, electrical and hydraulics and with all that and the pneumatic brakes, as a brand new FO, I found parking somewhere in the vicinity of the parking stop line was a challenge. The photo of VH-TQS's panel is on display at the TAA Musuem at Airport West and shows the nose wheel steering control wheels with the centering line marked in white on the far sides of the instrument panel.
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1500x974/f27_panel_vh_tqs_sml_a57b6d9dde5d01e3025b25888fcfc1edbe30483 9.jpg

Dora-9

3rd Apr 2023, 07:38

Givelda - nice photo which neatly answers my question. Thank you. But I note that this is VH-TQS; initially the F.27's in the VH-TF* range had a simply hideous instrument layout - a fixed back DI (a needle pointed your heading, easy to use only when flying north, no HSI here mate) and the RMI up where DME was.

You forgot to mention that the F.27 had both AC and DC electrics. Ansett F.27's used the accursed Walte Kidde (pnuematic) NWS with no stop at the end of travel whereas you lucky TAA people had rack & pinion steering where it was impossible to reverse the nosewheel.

Dora-9

3rd Apr 2023, 07:46

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1124/f27_cockpit_vh_fnq_at_caloundra_75700d384172c917ac24e88ff050 7cc208782c56.jpg
A rather youthful captain? Here's VH-FNQ at the QAM Caloumdra recently. Subtly different to your photo, note that ghastly AL30J Autopilot (the dreaded "highjack box". Also the Park Brake handle above the NWS tiller which would (painfully) remove your thumbnail if you weren't carefull...

Givelda

3rd Apr 2023, 09:07

Yes - the difference between flying the Mk 1 and the various other models we had, including the 600 series was chalk and cheese not to mention the TF's struggling to get above 9000feet in summer up in QLD - and "full over wing" being a typical refueling request if there was any weather involved. Talking about the Ansett NWS on the F27, I once witnessed a skipper under training managing to get the nose wheel to do a complete 360 as he maneuvered to park in Bundy. While Ansett had the "Hijack" autopilot we in Ta Ta's called the S.E.P.2 autopilot the "septic system". And the less said about the fixed card C2 compass system the better - from the TAA training manual....https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1500x1115/f27_training_manual_49_30f3eb17863d5b70cc0964b78f7fadeae96cc 177.jpg

Givelda

3rd Apr 2023, 09:22

The very first time I set foot in an aircraft, was VH-FNE when Queensland Airlines serviced Bundaberg and at the invitation of the skipper Rex Breusch, also from Bundy and who was a WWII Halifax skipper prior to QAL. Sadly, Rex had in incident in an F27 in Bundy in VH-FNU in 1976. Anyway, some years later I also strapped an F27 on (my hearing never recovered) and many more years later, I used the Training Manual to piece together this panel layout - which is still W.I.P. Bit different to the equipment these days.
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1980x2000/taa_f27_instrument_panels_sml_1a49403ce4c02eb03f97d65b3f1b0e 04d42624a6.jpg

Pinky the pilot

3rd Apr 2023, 10:20

the fixed card C2 compass system t

Givelda; I assmue the abovementioned instrument is the one featured in your post of the Insrument panel layout.

When i first started with Douglas Airways in PNG there were several Bongo Vans that still had those instruments fitted.

Not a single Pilot working at Dz knew how to use them!:ooh: From memory, the CP once told me to ignore it as it was next to useless...!:hmm:

Givelda

3rd Apr 2023, 12:41

"From memory, the CP once told me to ignore it as it was next to useless...!:hmm:"

Totally agree - trying to carry out an NDB letdown with a southerly runway was a challenge. In fact, my interview with TAA involved a SIM test in the right side of the old QANTAS Constellation simulator which had one of these things and of course I managed to turn the wrong way. Thinking that "honesty is the best policy", I mentioned this to the SIM Instructor, and he just smiled back knowingly. I had been at the time recently flying something with Flight directors and an HSI and didn't think I would end flying an airline aircraft that had been delivered to the airline when I was four years old! By the way, Pinky we are the same age and I empathise with your comments in your Location description.

SOPS

3rd Apr 2023, 14:48

I’m loving this thread. I joined Ansett on the F27. I had been flying a C402 for a private operator…it was equipped to the max… FD, HSI, a very good AP, …when I first saw the F27 flight deck, with a AH the same as the one in the C152 I went solo in…my first thought was, what have I done!!!!

First_Principal

3rd Apr 2023, 20:42

... Sadly, Rex had in incident in an F27 in Bundy in VH-FNU in 1976...

The report (https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/1976/aair/aair197600080) for this incident is worth a read, particularly given more recent events with miss-identification of the correct place for 787 undercarriage pins (https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/641123-ba-787-nosewheel-collapse-lhr.html).

As is so often the case the FNU issue wasn't entirely down to Rex, poor maintenance being a significant factor - both mechanically and visually.

FP.

kitchen bench

3rd Apr 2023, 23:34

The TAA F27's had NWS on both sides

That's not my recollection - but I am drawing on memories some 50+ years old.

Wasn't TQS the ex Japanese one that had the de-icing panel instructions placard still in Japanese?

Givelda

4th Apr 2023, 00:25

Wasn't TQS the ex Japanese one that had the de-icing panel instructions placard still in Japanese?

That was VH-TFW and yes, as I recall, there still were a few Japanese placards in the flight deck.

Dora-9

4th Apr 2023, 01:02

Givelda:

Thanks so much for posting those diagrams - all my F.27 manuals/posters have long since disappeared.

A few minor pints, if I may. That God-awful C2 Fixed Compass wasn't just fitted to Mk.I's. Keep in mind here that the original MMA Friendships (all Mk.2's) were configured to the then current TAA standard; indeed the first one,VH-MMS, came off a TAA order registered as VH-TFL. So when VH-MMR arrived from the West in April 1971 and flew around the Melbourne-based Ansett network prior to going into overhaul, I had the "privilege" of sitting behind, and struggling with, that system. What was fascinating was that VH-MMR was still sporting the very different blue MMA "Supersonic Duck" colour scheme; yet nobody noticed!

I'd reckon that most Ansett F.27's had the SEP.2 Autopilot and not the infamous AL30J - certainly all the MM* series and from VH-FNR on.

Ansett F.27's also had the RCA AVQ-47 weather radar. This didn't have a bright scope, so viewing in daylight required a hood thingie (which looked as though it could double as a megaphone) so that one pilot, at least, could see what was going on. The set also needed manual tuning, which inevitably meant that on every line check you'd be asked to demonstrate this! Despite those shortcomings it worked quite well. TAA used an Echo(Elko - help me here?) radar, when I was seconded to MAS in 1972 their Friendships had this set so I got some experience of this but thought it really no better than the AVQ-47.

Ansett's F.27-500's had the very schmick Honeywell Primus radar. Fokker had actually upgraded the cockpit to look more modern - you could argue that any change would make it look more modern! Initially one/two of these Friendships were Melbourne-based; eventually the entire fleet (six) were with ANSW in Sydney. Note that my photo is NOT an Ansett machine.

I once witnessed a skipper under training managing to get the nose wheel to do a complete 360

He was bloody lucky! The not that infrequent situation involved the nosewheel turning through 180 degrees (i.e. backwards) - and then you were well and truly stuck!
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/500x333/i284008264512110361_35f27dba193a1d62163d003c82cb51757c7b1be5 .jpg

Gne

4th Apr 2023, 01:08

Memories not of the aircraft or Ansett but the TAA crews who would attend the annual "Approach Room Disco" parties at Williamtown. Not to mention the bored FA's waiting patiently while the Captain and FO held operational discussions with the late shift ATC before the O Mess bar closed.

GNe

ricketyback

6th Apr 2023, 06:40

Tinpis - the F50 versus F27. F50 quieter, faster (approx 260 KTAS vs 210-220) used less fuel, no HP Cock metering on start, and the NWS worked. Still loved the F27 though!

ricketyback

5th May 2023, 01:33

Tinpis - even later. The F28 was still servicing Broken Hill in 1989. 3hours 30 minutes return flight from Sydney!

Here's a close call for you. F28 on descent into BH was advised of a local light aircraft departure outbound on the same track as the inbound F28. F28 calls the light aircraft and asked if they would maintain 3000ft and they would descend to 4000ft until sighted and confirmed passing. A few minutes later the F28 crew look out and there is a lightie coming straight for them at the same level. Guess what the elevation of BH is? About 1000feet. The light aircraft pilot set zero on the altimeter on the ground at BH!

Pinky the pilot

5th May 2023, 04:20

Just a slight digression; Purely out of interest, does anyone here know how those Fixed card compass thingies worked? How were you supposed to use them?:confused:

Mach E Avelli

5th May 2023, 12:02

I’m not sure what you mean by fixed card, but the really primitive ones that I was once familiar with were not too hard to deal with. 000 is the aircraft nose, 180 the tail, 090 the starboard wing (right wing to you children of the magenta) and 270 the port (left, kiddies) wing. The needle(s) point to the ground station. Tracking to or from an NDB is easy enough. Set heading to track desired. As the needle creeps away from 000 or 180 lay off drift in small increments until the needle is steady. Check heading against track required against needle deflection to see how the track looks, correct in desired direction. It’s not all that different to using an RMI, except you add a separate gyro compass to the plot.
Getting a bearing from off-track stations takes some basic mental math. The stuff they taught all 13 year olds in geometry classes back then…
Fixed card combined with azimuth ring gyros which had to be frequently reset for precession - as fitted to ex wartime DC 3’s and early post-war light aircraft - was a combination requiring real mental dexterity. But for this old timer it was not half as hard as mastering modern FMS stuff and learning to use a non QWERTY keyboard to type my way around the sky. Like taildraggers, first learned is often best remembered.
In that regard, at one stage I was flying both DC 3 and F 27 for a UK airline, sometimes one type in the morning and the other in the afternoon. Given a nasty crosswind on a slush covered runway at challenging places like Sumburgh or Bergen, the DC 3 was the better handling aircraft. Much to the amusement of some of my colleagues, if given the choice by rostering, I always opted for the DC 3. I never fully trusted the lightly loaded single nose wheel on the F 27, and what seemed to be less rudder authority, to keep things under control with very strong wind on the beam. The DC 3 never gave me a moment’ s concern on takeoff or landing. It only got tricky to taxi in those conditions, but by then the real scary bits were over. Whereas , I recall nearly running off the runway at night at Amsterdam in an F 27 due to crosswind. Next night in similar conditions I thought I was ready for it, but the same thing happened.
I flew every version of the RR Dart powered F 27 from serial number 05 up to almost the last off the production line before they went to the F 50. There were some really weird customer-specified instrument layouts, even to location of TGT versus torque gauges. Standard fit was torque at the top of the panel, but some airlines considered TGT/JPT as more important and had it at the top. Some customers ordered nav switching which was downright dangerous, and should have never been countenanced by the factory. Certain airlines wanted commonality with older types in their fleet, or perhaps their Chief Pilot was ‘on the spectrum’ and thought everyone else would have the same mental processes.
Nosewheel steering on the RHS was a desirable option, both for safety when training new captains, and to develop first officers. Why Ansett - which claimed to have high standards - never went for it, dunno…
Recently, I donated all my old Fokker, Vickers Viscount, Convair and Boeing manuals to the small museum at St Mary’s in Tassie, so anyone passing through with an interest in these ancient beasts, do drop in to browse. They have lots of other old stuff like handling notes for various warbirds.