Ansett and the Fokker Friendship

[Stationair8]

When Ansett aqcuired the Fokker 50 was it operated by both mainline and also Ansett NSW?

What routes in NSW did the Fokker 50 operate on?

Was Ansett still operating the Fokker F-27 on RPT and freight operations when the 1989 dispute happened?

Did Ansett Express replace Ansett NSW after the dispute?

Must be a few F-27 and F-50 drivers out in Pprune land.

This get East West back online!!!!

[tinpis]

When Ansett aqcuired the Fokker 50 was it operated by both mainline and also Ansett NSW?

Yes, but I think mainline were the only people who knew how to operate it properly :hmm:


Was Ansett still operating the Fokker F-27 on RPT and freight operations when the 1989 dispute happened?

Yes.

Must be a few F-27 and F-50 drivers out in Pprune land.

Yes

[Anthill]

F50 routes in NSW: Sydney, Coffs Harbour, Ballina, Casino, Lismore, Dubbo, Wagga, Albury, Canberra (ACT), Cooma.

Also served at various times: Melbourne, Launceston and Hobart.

Probably others too.

[dhavillandpilot]

My dad flew the F27 for ANSW, finishing with some 26,000 hours.

I remember him going to Holland to the Fokker Factory to receive an award for the highest flight time pilot on F27's in the world some 19,000 plus hours.

He still kicking at 91 and retains a keen interest in aviation be it through his son.

As a side note when the F50 was introduced to ANSW I can remember the amount of money the local Citation operators use to make taking engineers out to fix the fuel control units that continually broke/ went US.

[By George]

Ah, yes the 40 ton dog whistle. Will never forget the ground school, one day just on the prop, high locks, low locks, blue lights, red lights and amber lights. Nightmare of a thing. I never flew the 50 but a close friend lost two engines on descent due to icing, managed to get both back but even today still has a slight stutter! Built like a concrete outhouse and if I remember correctly MMS and MMO had over 50,000 cycles. Then the checkies on it, 'the gang of four' including 'the white haired assassin', happy days.

[Wizofoz]

Ah, yes the 20 ton dog whistle.

She would have been struggling a little at 40 tonnes!!!

I was rostered to fly Ansetts last ever turbo-prop flight- Sydney-Cooma return as a cross-hire to Impulse. Came back from leave with a cold and couldn't make it!!

Two great years on the F50, probably the most enjoyable flying of my (airline) life!

[remoak]

Great machine, the prop lock system was a work of engineering art that nobody on my course understood until we saw one disassembled... so very British.

Loved the pneumatics too... taxying was an acquired skill with pneumatic nosewheel steering.

And then there was the fuel trimmers... "gear up, power up, trim up" if I recall correctly...

Happy memories of the F27.

[Stationair8]

What date was the last Ansett turbo-prop flight?

When did the F-50 enter sevice?

[Capt Fathom]

Oops...

Didn't you arm the Water Meth?

:uhoh:

[remoak]

Hear about the Channex (UK) F27 that mistakenly had it's water meth tanks filled with Jet A1?

Not much left of the hot section...

[Fantome]

. . . . oh yes . . . . a complete anecdotal history of the dear old frugal in Australian service would out rival brittanica in volume.

. . . . . . engineering school? who now could say explain in simple terms the function of that blessed third oil line?

met the son of the late Joe Waxman the other day who pranged at Launie
resulting in the loss of VH-F?? all covered in foam. A man, the son, with many colourful tales of his dad. The very first one to enter service (I'd stand corrected ) here was TFB 'Abel Tasman' and how ironic her fate.

. . . .. and how weird the many conflicting stories of how come that night off Mackay she speared into the sea with all souls lost



A low level bad weather circuit , especially in the later models like 500 series , felt just like a bigger C210 . Dream machine


who wants to tell the story of the ANSW one en route SYD-Broken Hill that had the controls lock up when passing Parkes? (Struthers in command)

[ampclamp]

F50 also went to Merimbula.
Ah yes the F50.Paid for a lot of home mortgages for the AN SYD engineers.What a blooming nightmare they were early on.
prop de-ice, EEC's, PEC's, battery chargers, AHRS, MFC's, weather radar (most unreliable rotable in the system), cockpit lighting dimmers OMG... the list goes on.Small aircraft, serious piece of $#!T.:{
F27s took the 50's place when they were grounded with the aforementioned engine intake anti ice problems hence the 50's "euroglider" nickname.
F50's did improve markedly over the years.They had to !
Did some service in WA flying out of PER to the mining towns as well as Albany Esperance Geraldton etc.
Airlines of NSW had some of the best down to earth crew and FA's around.Great fun, easy to deal with.:ok:

[dhavillandpilot]

The F27 with the gust locks was` Captain by Russ Strother. He put the tech log, in those day in an aluminum jacket behind the seat and inadvertently pushed in the gust lock around Parkes.

The sad part later was Russ's son also a captain with ANSW died of a brain anuism whilst playing sport - a terrible loss.

Air New South Wales, apart from being owned by Ansett and having the obligatory Ansett Management was a good company with excellent comradeship - unlike the companies today all with no soul.

[By George]

Sorry Wizofox, you are quite correct, 44,000lbs which is 20 tons. Some of our old girls went to South America and some to 'Air UK' it would be interesting to know if they are still active.

[remoak]

If they went to Air UK then no, they are almost certainly sitting on a scrapheap in Norwich (the airport "graveyard"). From memory they were all scrapped when Air UK was swallowed up by KLMuk. One or two may have found their way to BAC but not likely.

[Fantome]

ah . . . Russ , of course . . . . . a true character rest his soul . . . . larger than life ..

first encountered him one fine morning getting a free ride in the jump-seat SYD-MER thanks to an old mate from Canberra Aero CLub days Dave Bowyer who was Russ's FO that day. No one newish to the game today could comprehend the spirit and the cameraderie there was back then ...... the last traces killed forever by we all know who some of us

fondly remember the warm hospitality of Doug Way of AN ex-ANA up front in his three holer.

fondly remember many many similar occasions going back to an AN Viscount skipper first name Keith . . . tall skinny freckled red head.


or Hughie Bond of AN . . . who held court in the brickmakers on Bulla road

. . . and the late Col McKenny ex Butler, Lib pilot of 24 SQN . . . his photo hangs in the tiny terminal building at Tooraweenah.

if you know of any of these vets today in retirement villages or still at home . . . look 'em up while there's still time. Most love to have a chat.

some of the yarns are rivetting.. or very funny . . . or both . . . PM if you want a lead or 2.

[Nil defects]

Wow, 19,000 hrs on the frugal. I`ll bet he's deaf! ANSW was a sausage factory in the 80's. All F/O's joining Ansett had to fly the F27 first even if only for a few months before moving onto something bigger, quieter and faster. But they were fun days.
http://i610.photobucket.com/albums/tt184/Nildefects/F27scans0022.jpg

[Andy_RR]

...passenger flying as a whipper-snapper ADL-KGC for the school holidays in the '70s and early '80s. The old Fokker seemed a pretty cool thing back then and still does. Sitting on a window seat near the wing to watch the gear retraction/extension was always a bonus for this kid who was fascinated by anything that had wheels and spinny things on it. :}

[Capt Fathom]

And the scud-run along the coast from Wynyard to Devonport was a fun ride!

[puff]

The F50 used to also do a WLM-BNE-OOL-WLM trip towards the end as well. I think back in the old days too the F27 used to go to Moree before Eastern took it over.

Never had a ride on the F27 but had one on the F50, was a nice machine to ride on. Eastwest used to do SYD-NLK in a F27 before the F28, now thats long haul !

[Skystar320]

Don't forget that the FK50's headed West to join Skywest to replace the J31's which they are still in operation to this day!

[Capt Casper]

I think the control lock incident happened to Captain Ian Strother of Airlines of New South Wales. His son was Russell, who passed on as described. Russell flew for Ansett in WA and may have been on the F50 but I am not sure. I believe Ian is still alive and still feels the loss of his son terribly.

[Chief galah]

It may have been mentioned earlier, but didn't the F50 have a 220 Kt limitation due to the wingspar?

[Mach E Avelli]

From memory Vno was 223 kt for the F27 and the structure of the F 50 was basically the same, so makes sense. My logbooks show 7200 hours in command on it. Can't say I either loved it or hated it, but it was a good little meal ticket at the time.
I had the privilege of ferrying several of the 'Yellow Canaries' that were still in Air NSW colours across the Pacific to the USA. We put extra tanks in them to give them a (relatively safe) 2300 nm range for the hop from Hilo to Los Angeles.
I well remember handing one over to a Yank Chief Pilot, complete with Ansett manuals and checklists. He was astounded at the complexity in the SOPs etc that Ansett had created, making a comment along the lines of "how the hell did they ever get that thing airborne with all that bullsh!t?"
For an aeroplane that was designed as a DC3 replacement it was ideal at the time. A very simple thing to fly and operate, propeller system notwithstanding.

[tinpis]

June 1988 - EWP, BNE-SYD @ FL310 in the mighty Frugal-Liner. Woo Hoo!

Yeah, no bull****ting? F-27? How the bloody hell did it get up there?

[Capt Fathom]

FL310?

Something about FL250 and drop-down oxy masks comes to mind!

(How fast would a Dash 8 - 400 go at FL310?)

[Capt Claret]

Drop down oxy at F310 not required if no pax, say a ferry flt. :}

My first flight was in a TAA F27, Essendon to Canberra, aged 14. I already knew I wanted to fly but that flight was just mesmerizing.

[puff]

Fokker F.27 Friendship Australia (http://www.aussieairliners.org/fokker/f27aust.html)

That website details the history of them all in Oz service.

Check out the data on VH-FNG -

Aircraft had flown 84,360 hours with 89,997 cycles

This aircraft had the distinction of having the highest number of cycles of all F.27s ever in service, withdrawn in 1999 after starting in 1961!

[boocs]

anyone have that youtube footage of the near miss (well to me it seemed a near miss) of an F27 and another aircaft? Thanks in advance...
b.

[peuce]

Geez ... you guys must be old.
I can remember, as an 8 year old, in the 60s, travelling SYD-WG in an ANSW F27 ... every school holidays ... to visit relatives.

Each flight nearly always included a trip to the cockpit. Special stuff.:ok:

And no, Captain, I don't like watching gladiator movies :}

[Andy_RR]

anyone have that youtube footage of the near miss (well to me it seemed a near miss) of an F27 and another aircaft? Thanks in advance...
b.

This one...?

YouTube - Ansett Close Call - 1971 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjU4cWDRwKI)

[FourStar]

East West did Sydney Alice Springs in the F27 one of the longest f27 flights

[Aye Ess]

As a kid living in Sydney in 1969, I paid $4 for a mystery flight with Airlines of NSW. In F27 VH-FNC the flight was Syd to Dubbo,but Dubbo was fogged in,so we went to Nyngan low level(I remember seeing cattle scattering as we hurtled along). Anyhoo,after sitting at Nyngan for an hour or so,it was reboarding,then Dubbo & Sydney..... what an adventure,one of those memorable times in life.

[frangatang]

I remember well flying the F27 with scare uk (air uk) in 1986/87. The first thing the company did when acquiring an aircraft was sell the autopilot and l recall one arrived from Ansett complete with the autopilot which they left in place. Not sure if anyone knew how to use the thing. A regular run was a 6/7 sector day to the channel islands (jersey, Guernsey) and with no A/P , handflying the thing in the hold above jersey for an hour waiting for the murk to lift soon lost its appeal.

[remoak]

Ah yes I flew for Air UK for a while too. G-BNCY and G-BVOM had autopilots if I recall correctly, they took a while to warm up but worked OK. Otherwise it was manual all the way, not too bad on the short sectors but we did Stansted to Cologne a few times and that was three hours.. no fun flying manually.

G-BVOM is now in a museum I think, G-BNCY was lost in a landing accident at Guernsey.

We never bothered holding at Jersey, we just went back to Southampton for a coffee and sticky bun... ;)

[Mach E Avelli]

The first two F27s operated by Air UK when it was still Air Anglia were G-BAKL and G-BAUR. The Chief Pilot of the time 'Spud' Murphy did not believe that we needed autopilots. Aberdeen to Amsterdam and back at night became a bit tedious. At the time they also had two DC3s remaining in the fleet which retained the original hydraulic autopilots - probably because it was virtually a no-maintenance item. I much preferred the DC3 anyway, but the autopilot sealed the deal for me, and I continued to fly it at every opportunity in preference to the F27.

[Stationair8]

Why did Ansett lease FCB out to Setair in 1983?

Was it crewed by Ansett pilots?

[Fantome]

laying on the nostalgia now a bit chasps . . . . (p'raps it's all we now have to look forward to)


RE - close calls . . . . nothing comes near the DC-4 and the Airspeed Ambassador holding in thick cloud over Paris. The first that was known of their proximity was someone later on a walk round noticed some scrape marks.

[Eastwest Loco]

Fantome

TFB was in fact the 1st delivered. TFA was originally built with the slightly shorter solid nose and was being retrofitted with the radome and weather radar.

Fathom

Did the DPO WNY run many times as living in Devonport and working in Burnie Wynyard if I was on early and ovgerslept I woulod tear out and catch TN990 to work and TN997 home.

A few mornings 500 coastal minma got down to 150 and it was always on the jump seat.

Great days on the F27.

16.5 wet - and away we go.

Best all.

EWL

[Fantome]

TFB ('Abel Tasman') all sparkling new with her dayglo fin and rudder looked a picture of Dutch fine lines and that certain purposeful just rightness.

Flew SYD-CBR in her, would have been '57 or '58. On arrival took several B & W photos with the old 620 camera. Twenty years on and
endorsed on type by Sutto, (former FAA Firefly pilot - he who spoke of once flying in close proximity to a great stately galleon, the Saro Princess). TFK was that baptismal Frugal . SYD-TMW, empty, then straight into s/e circuits.

Ah EWL . . . . the jump-seat tales! . . . .. next winter old cockalorum . .. round the fire. ("What should we be doing now Michael? . . .. . . "
Or prising off the four inch diameter round plastic cover styled "FOKKER" in cursive from the wheel that looked like an early Holden steering wheel centre piece (and horn) and finding cryptic notes tucked inside, mostly highly offensive. Or taxying out and finding the steering far too sensitive and twitchy and being tapped on the shoulder by a certain Naomi and told "Jerky Jack - cabin's ready")

[tinpis]

When I was in Blighty someone (Air Yuk/Anglia?) was using Fairchild Hillers not many Fokkers to be spied, the Poms built their own dinosaurs (Dart Herald) no need to buy them off the Dutch

[Mach E Avelli]

Dunno about any Fairchilds in the UK, but a few did survive for a while outside of the USA. The yanks took a good basic design and unecessarily complicated it with prop brakes, an APU and freon air-conditioning. The cockpit (sorry 'flight compartment' - the word 'cock' was unacceptable in polite circles in the USA back then) layout had some notable differences like two sets of power levers with the HP cocks (sorry, 'valves') in the centre of the pedestal. It made going from the F27 to the Fairchild and back again on the same day interesting as one grabbed for the wrong lever. They stretched it into the FH-227 and to save weight used lighter metal (in the skin, I think). Result was all sorts of extra X-ray inspections. Not one of the better American success-stories.

[Stationair8]

Did Ansett have any QC Friendships?

So no one knows why Ansett leased FCB to Setair in the early 1980's?

The centre run in the F-27 must have been an interesting trip for the crew's.

Did Ansett SA run the F-27's into Kangaroo Island?

Must be plenty of stories and photos out in Pprune land about the Fokker F-27 that need to be told.

[john_tullamarine]

Fond memories of AN QC Fokkers in the wee hours of the morning.

Track trips were THE cream of AN flying if we are honest.

Some stories are better not told ...... (most of them are in Nanny's book anyway).

[Stationair8]

Okay what is a track trip?

The stories need to be told, names can be changed to protect the innocent.

[john_tullamarine]

track trip = centre run

You could be opening a Pandora's Box here ... protect the innocent ? What about the guilty ?

And it's not just AN .. TN used to run in parallel. Some of the best flying and greatest social fun that most of us ever had.

[topdrop]

Did Ansett SA run the F-27's into Kangaroo Island?Yep, also to Broken Hill, Mt Gambier, Port Lincoln and Whyalla. They also had the Santos contract to Moomba - they folded very shortly after losing that moneyspinner.

[Dora-9]

This thread has drifted slightly off-topic; I’m amazed nobody has seen fit to mention two distinct and unique features of Ansett’s F.27’s.

The initial Ansett F.27–200’s (VH-FNA to, I think, FNL) were fitted with the Sperry AL30J pneumatic autopilot. Its patent unsuitability was obvious; this was allegedly fitted because at the time Ansett were the Sperry agents in Australia! To use this, you had to ensure that your coffee cup was empty, your full harness was tight, all of the indicator indices were aligned, quietly review the “recovery from unusual attitudes” procedure, take a deep breath and engage – for very good reason this was known as “the hijack box”! Eventually sanity prevailed; all the -400’s and -500’s, plus the -200’s acquired from both MMA and All Nippon had the excellent Smiths SEP2 (electric) autopilot.

Apparently someone in Ansett Engineering had a love affair with pneumatics as the F.27 was also cursed with the Walter Kidde Nose Wheel Steering System. It was readily apparent that it lacked both feel (I always suspected an elastic band hidden somewhere in the linkage) and authority; a small movement of the steering wheel produced no apparent result; an infinitesimal further movement produced a huge lurch as the nosewheel promptly turned through a large angle! Even worse was the lack of any mechanical stop at the end of the steering range. The danger here was during a tight turn the noseweel would castor and reverse itself – you were then well and truly stuck! Allegedly in the cause of standardization, but due more I suspect to a sense of bloody-mindedness and making life hard for the pilots, Engineering persevered with this woefully inadequate NWS for all Ansett F.27’s. When the six F.27-500’s (VH-FCA to FCD) were ordered, Fokker initially declined to fit these units as they were no longer in production. Not to be outdone, engineering scoured the world’s rubbish tips, airline’s long-forgotten stores shelving and museums of torture instruments to locate six second-hand examples, which ended up in the “new” Friendships…

But Fokker’s “Mighty Mouse” certainly was a character-building aircraft. I have some 4500 hours on type (in fact the most of any type I’ve flown) and in all honesty I thoroughly enjoyed every minute of it.

[sru]

East-West and a young sru.

For me the F27 taught me patience and a bit of forward thing. It seemed to have an inbuilt delay from input to response … waiting … waiting … ah that’s it. :sad:. The brakes, NWS as DORA-9 posted, and roll rates required a bit of thought when flying a bad wx circuit.

Loved the thing – you actually had to manipulate all aspects. Flight idle into Syd from top of decent without touching the power levers until touch down – a challenge but could be done (got to love the Fuel trimmers! – I know that’s cheating lol)

It was all about good management :ok:

Have also done a bit of time on the F50, But the F27 will always be the “Pilots” airplane to me.:D:D:D:D

[Dora-9]

Not quite - min of 40 psi torque OR zero torque (layshaft flutter could occur between these two values).

But sru presumably isn't ex Ansett, as they had a real "thing" about flying the F27 like a jet, which implied some power on during the approach.

[blackburn]

S8
So no one knows why Ansett leased FCB to Setair in the early 1980's?

Setair were trying to get in to Turbine acft and had been exploring the BAe748-2B for some time. The two Airline policy was still in vogue and despite operating 3 DC3's, the management apparently decided that a leg in could be obtained by leasing an F27 from Ansett in early 1983. It was based at Essendon for a short time and although it was a passenger acft it was only ever used as a freighter by Setair and was probably seat loaded. It was crewed by Ansett and no Setair pilots were ever endorsed on the type. I don't remember if it was used on routes other than Essendon - Launceston.

Blackburn

[Stationair8]

Thanks for the answer, blackburn.

It always intrigued me why Ansett would lease an aircraft to somebody competing on the Bass Straight freight runs.

Did the Ansett F-27's do the centre run every day?

Anyone recall the schedule?

Weren't the Ansett-MMA Fokkers that hardest working aircraft in the Ansett fleet?

[frangatang]

One of Air Uks Heralds is at Duxford(great day out on saturday), minus its fin. Who nicked it?

[emeritus]

SA8

Did the odd Track trip from 70 to 75. The last of the "social" trips where you had a few days with the same girls and got to know them, sometimes in the biblical sense!

Most of the girls bidded for the track trips for the fun, be it with the crew or with a remote b/friend. I met my wife of 38 yrs in the crew taxi into the Midlands Motel !!
As I recall a few of the Traffic Officers and some of the charter pilots were frequently the hosts of rowdy parties. One party in particular some one threw a bucket of water and it was on for all.

The junior Hostie was being checked by the senior and I can still see the look of dread on her face as someone threw a bucket of water over the check hostie. Said check hostie was apparently held in some dread by the troops and so her sense of humour was an unknown quantity until then. No one made it out dry.

The Survival Kit ....a large cardboard box full of stuff for a barbie was kept at the Motel. The guys were on daily allowance whereas the girls were still on meal allowance at the accomodation.
Girls would sign the meal chits at motel and instead of 2 meals they would give us 4 steaks plus extras which with a flagon or 3 that we bought equipped us for a great bbq.

Track schedule....as I recall it was something like this..

Sat pm...AD-AS o/n...crew ch

Sun...AS-TC-KN-DN...o/n

Mon...DN-KN-TC-AS...crew ch
AS-TC-KN-DN...o/n
Tue...DN-KN-TC-AS...crew ch
AS-TC-KN-DN....o/n
Wed..DN-KN-TC-AS...crew ch
AS-TC-KN-DN...o/n
Thur..DN-KN-TC-AS...crew ch
AS-TC-KN-DN...o/n
Fri....DN-KN-TC-AS...crew ch
AS-OD-LC-AD

Most of the time the a/c was FNI..I'm sure it knew the way without our input! Occasionally one would be saddled with a QC a/c FNR,FNS.FNT which had a higher basic weight and made life a bit harder if there were alternates required.

Anyone remember Jack Watkins(?)who owned the cabs in AS and BIG Clive the cabbie in DN? Story goes that Jack decided to put in a pool at his place and anyone volunteering to man a shovel would be provided with free beer to keep the enthusiasm up. Jack also liked a beer now and again, like now..and again. He had his suppy of darwin stubbies and occasionally a nav bag would be found in the forward locker with 4 or 6 empties inside. On arrival in DN the bag would disappear and the next morning it would reappear in the locker with full stubbies inside.

I can still see Jack sitting at his radio in shorts and singlet with a stubbie close by. Occasionally he picked up high ranking US military people off the Starlifter that came in every thursday luchtime but he would never say where he took them.I suspect they had another base there besides Pine Gap as years ago talking to Don Elford he said in the 50's when he was doing aerial survey work up there, they were approached by some Yanks to photograph an area just outside AS. Payment was in cash and they took the film with them.

In those days there were no tourists around during the summer and so loads were a lot less, making it easier with holding/alternates.
Got caught once in Oodnadatta on a trip AD- AS. Had a heavy load on a QC with 60 mins on AS. Only way out was to refuel in OD. The fueller there was not all that reliable but Traffic in AD rang him and told him we needed fuel and a rough est of amount.

Arrived to a temp of low 40's . Port tank was refuelled and I was then told he would have to go back to the farm and fill up the tanker. Eventually arrived back to say that he could not get the fuel to pump out of the u/ground tank. Terrific!! Full load of pax in the non a/c shed that was the "terminal" and stuck between a rock and a hard place.

After about an hour n a half I was adv that AS had taken the 60mins off.
Fortunately I just had enough fuel to get to AS albeit with 700 lbs more in the port tank. Checking the manual I was just on the fuel assymetry limits.

Apparently the fit hit the shan when I put in the Gen Flt Rep. There were apparently questions in the house at the highest level within Ansett n BP.

Lots of stories to be told,some will not but still many more.
Loved the cameraderie between ground/aircrew and AN/TN. The trip was very competitive between them n us with alot of fun and skulduggery to get away first.

Emeritus:ok::E:=:cool::D

[remoak]

One of Air Uks Heralds is at Duxford(great day out on saturday), minus its fin. Who nicked it?The other one used to be on the spotters deck at Gatwick... not sure if it still is... although that was a Channel Express one. Didn't think Air UK ever flew the Herald... they were an F27 operation.

[PLovett]

Several people here talking about the "track trip" through the centre.

When I was based in Tennant Creek in 2008 one of the local storekeepers (who was sometimes the local airline agent) had a pin board at the back of his shop on which clippings about aviation were pinned up. One of the newspaper clippings was a photo showing three F27s' at the airport, TAA, Ansett and I think Bush Pilots but it may have been Connellan.

This was of course when Tennant Creek was a prosperous gold mining town hence the daily flights. One of the locals also told me a story of having to wait as a passenger until 3 am for the temperature to drop enough so that a F28 could depart. I bet that ruined the F & D times for the crew.

[john_tullamarine]

wait as a passenger until 3 am for the temperature to drop enough

Not uncommon.

I can recall a track trip on the Friendly where we blew a water-meth hose at Tennant. MEL sent up a ginger beer to fix the bit but there we were with nil stocks of water. Departed dry at around 0-dark-30 to get a temperature just low enough to scrape over the end of the strip. They were fun days on the Fokker.

On another occasion, on the B727 freighter after a week of 40+ at PER, we had to delay the evening flight back to MEL until a lot later than scheduled for the same reason.

[tinpis]

Didn't they have some sort of Track trip in AIRNSW?
As well as call the check list do all the bloody paper work etc the FO got to empty the honey pot in dust, flies and 35C+
Bugger that for a box of soldiers

[B772]

Some answers/info for posters.

Stationair8.

The last F27 commercial service was on 26 Jul 89 MKY-HTI-CNS with FNQ (now in Museum at Caloundra)
The first F50 commercial service was on 16 Nov 87 SYD-DBO with FNA.
The last F50 commercial service was on 29 Jun 91 to MEL with FNJ.
The Setair freighter lease was from 13 Dec 82 to FCB. The a/c would position from/to Tullamarine.

There were 4 x F27-400QC's. FNO, FNQ, FNR, FNS, and FNT. FNU was a F27-600 purchased from Air France ( F-BOOD ) 12 Aug 70 with the 'big door' but no QC floor. This a/c once flew PER-MEL nonstop with a payload overflying the 2 fuel stops on a Friday pre VFL Grand Final and upon arriving in MEL did a quick MEL-BWT-MEL to cover another unserviceable F27.

Fantome. FNH came to grief at LST on 17 Mar 65 with Joe Waxman and Eddie York during a single engine go-around.

Tinpis. There were no AN F27's being operated in late 1989. All 10 X F50's were in service. ( F50 is technically F27-50 )

[peuce]

Speaking of longish F27 flights ...

Not AN, but I remember flying in an EWA F27-500 from SY-NF when I was a bitter younger.

I remember the first couple of seats were removed and replaced with freight. It actually gave us, the SLF, some extra room to get up, move around and look out at the ( minimal) scenery. I remember overflying Balls Pyramid.

The departure ex NF was the most interesting part. Back tracked past the runway end, way into the dirt, stood on the brakes, gunned it, shook it, let go and we slowly clawed our way airborne as the ocean cliffs dropped below us. This was in the days before the new runway.

[Stationair8]

Keep the stories coming gentlemen.

When did the track trip finish?

[Wizofoz]

The last F50 commercial service was on 29 Jun 91 to MEL with FNJ.


I flew them 94-95, so I don't think you've got that right. Are you talking about Mainline operation? AirNSW eventually ceased to exist and by the time I was on them, which was up till they were moved on, we flew as AN, not AirNSW.

[tinpis]

There were some good boys with ANSW, even the guys that commuted from MEL :}

[boocs]

Anyone care to comment on the F-28 Fellowship or is that politically incorrect?? And Oh my God there were some serious politics associated with that aircraft.... ("East Coast po*$tas" is a quote that comes to mind)

b.

[Ash767]

Capt Casper,

You are right, the gust lock incident did in fact happen to Capt Ian Strother. I am a very close friend of Ian's and he is certainly alive and kicking pretty well.

We have shared and continue to share many aviation stories. We have also done a reasonable amount of flying together, from which I have learnt a great deal.


Ash767:ok:

[tinpis]

ANSW did an F27 SYD - HOBART
ANSETT camaraderie? bullsh!t Some rotten bugger pinched me gloves out of the cockpit midwinter.

[PLovett]

tinnie, when was the ANSW SY - HB?

I can recall the EWA flights on that route as occasionally I helped out the contractors who turned it around in HB. The only reason they could do that flight then was that neither the protected two, i.e. Ansett and TAA, were flying that route.

[tinpis]

About '86 I recall droning on down there Cant say when because I...er...forgot to fill me log in from '85...:\
Was it a special ya think?
Their was a 733 on the tarmac at HB with a birdstrike...in #2

[gcafinal]

This is an interesting thread. Does anyone have any photos of any of the Ansett or TAA FK27s operating especially at inland aerodromes ?

[CharlieLimaX-Ray]

When did Airlines of South Australia stop operating?

Remember the good old days when TAA did the western QLD routes in the Fokker F-27 and then some brain box decided to replace it with the Austin 1800, sorry the Jetsream 31 and the Cherokee 6 following with the luggage. Must have been a cushy job for the crews on Fokker wages flying the Jetstream!!!!

At one stage Ansett-ANA operated the F-27, Melbourne -King Island -Smithton-Launceston-Flinders Island-Launceston-Wynyard-King Island-Melbourne. Would have been a big day out for the crew with a combination of NDB approaches, VAR letdowns and in those days Smithton was a no aid aerodrome. The former OIC at King Island flight service knew most of the crew on a first name basis, as the service operated five days a week until the mid 1970's.

A former TAA work mate reckons that that both TAA and Ansett couldn't make any money operating the F-27's due to the types high operating cost.

What did TAA and Ansett do for endorsements on the F-27, take an aircraft off line for a few weeks?

Didn't some endorsements get in New Zealand at sometime?


Sorry ocker the Fokkers chockers!!

[emeritus]

Hey Tinnie.....whats with the gloves. Surely your not admitting that you wore them while flying!

Only ever saw someone wearing silk gloves in 26 yrs with AN...he was a senior ex RN WW2 guy.

Emeritus:rolleyes:

[Dog One]

Remember Ansett NSW operating a F28 service parallel to EW Sydney Devonport Hobart. Also operated the F28 Devonport Melbourne which reduced EW's load factor considerably.

[Capt Claret]

A former TAA work mate reckons that that both TAA and Ansett couldn't make any money operating the F-27's due to the types high operating cost.

I was told many years ago that the method used to retire the F27, from TaaTaas at least, was a directive from on high that any work done that couldn't be charged against a particular airframe, eg, cleaning, miscelaneous tyre work, battery work, etc. was to be charged to the F27 fleet.

After a year, "OMG look what these F27's are costing us, we'd better get rid of them".

[B772]

CharlieLimaX-Ray

The last ASA flight was in June 1986 to Whyalla.

The F27 Tas Islands Run was mainly AN179/166/165/180. During school holidays there was a double run to FLS from LST. On these days there was a crew change in LST.

The service to SIO was once a week only. Sats southbound, Wed northbound and without a navaid at SIO. (The Radar Map mode came in very handy some days locating the Duck River) The crew would call WNY (now BWT) on HF and WNY would reply on the WNY NDB 302Khz (same freq as BNE).

Tha AN agent at SIO responded to the name - WOG

Interesting days.

Ps. An F27 landed and took off from RWY 24 ( 790 metres ) at KNS once in strong wind conditions.

[tinpis]

They was me good leather motorbike gloves, not yer pussy Nomex :*

[Dog One]

Missed approach from SIO, up to LSA, across to WY for a NDB (no VOR in those days), visual coastal at 500' back to SIO, line up on the Duck River and straight in on RW24, hoping the local operators C180 was in the hangar!

[Stationair8]

How long did the western QLD routes last using the J31?

Looking through the F-27 site posted earlier on, it mentions that TAA crewed the DCA Fokkers up until 1978, why was that? Would have been a very cosy little arrangement no doubt.

Was it Ansett or TAA that operated the flights to Timor in the 1970's?

On the track trip how did the Fokker go operating into the old Katherine aerodrome?

[Skystar320]

Didn't the Fokker F27 come back for a quick visit when the Fokker F50's which were recently delivered were grounded?

[Skystar320]

The last F27 commercial service was on 26 Jul 89 MKY-HTI-CNS with FNQ (now in Museum at Caloundra)

This info clashes with what I have on record. The Fokker F27-600 VH-FNQ which saw service from 1/67 to 11/90

Last commercial service was with Ansett and then leased to Safe Air from the 12/89 to 5/90 then subsequently sold.

However VH-FNR was owned by Ansett right up until 11/93 abeit registered as SE-KGC operated mainly nu Malmo Aviation on TNT European freight runs.

[Dog One]

TAA did the Timor run, from memory every Wednesday, and used Bacua because the old strip at Dili wasn't long enough and had serious terrain problems.

[B772]

Skystar320.

You are correct re some AN F27's being put back into service whilst the AN
F50's were briefly grounded.

You may be interested to know that VH-FNQ actually returned to New Zealand in 11/90 on lease to an Ansett subsidiary. The a/c was re-registered as ZK-RTA, the initials of Ross T Allen; the Ansett New Zealamd Air Freight Operations Manager.

On 31 Mar 96 the a/c returned to Essendon via NLK and CFS and prepared for a 5 year lease to IAF (Independant Air Freighters). The a/c was handed over to IAF registered as VH-WAN (West Australian Newspapers) and departed for PER on 24 May 96.

On 17 Apr 01 the a/c was leased to Aircruising and operated on behalf of Ansett Air Freight between BNE-SYD-BNE until 13 Sep 01 (AN collapse). In late 2001 the a/c was ferried BNE-TMW by Capt S Weatherstone of Aircruising.

The a/c was included on a list of assets by the Ansett Administrators after the collapse.

The a/c was purchased by the Queensland Air Museum of Caloundra on 23 Aug 08 who now have the a/c on display. They plan to paint the a/c in the original Ansett-ANA colour scheme showing the original registration of VH-FNQ (Far North Queensland).

[tinpis]

FNQ. Have they got a photo of "Slom" beside her? :p

[Fris B. Fairing]

Tinnie

We've got lots of photos (http://www.qam.com.au/aircraft/friendship/VH-FNQ.htm) of things beside FNQ but I doubt if there's a Slom amongst them.

Rgds

[frangatang]

Going off track slightly , but l lived in Karumba in the good old days of Bush Pilot Airways, with the DC3 making its many stops from Cairns. That of course was buggered when it bacame Air Qld, and suddenly the F27 arrived for the Cairns -Weipa run with pilots in not only the standard white shirt, shorts and long socks, but sporting CAPs as well. That must have spelt the demise of the DC3. Happy days!

[UTW]

You know you're getting old when two aeroplanes you've flown are in the same museum! :( (VH-KAM and VH-FNQ)

[tinpis]

and suddenly the F27 arrived for the Cairns -Weipa run with pilots in not only the standard white shirt, shorts and long socks, but sporting CAPs as well. That must have spelt the demise of the DC3. Happy days!

From what I understand the hangovers were still the same. :hmm:
Just couldn't sprawl over the tailplane of a Fokker

Hee, hee, one for you Frank

[Dora-9]

I wonder if anyone has pointed out to QAM and FNQ was the first of the Ansett F27 fleet to wear the white overall colour scheme (September 1982)?

[Pedota]

As youngster I flew in a MMA F-27 from Port Hedland to Perth in 1961– after having travelled the ‘milk run’ north in a DC-3. MMA’s F-27 fleet peaked at 10 aircraft.

Ansett took a controlling interest in MMA in 1963 and it was gradually incorporated (via Airlines of Western Australia) into the Ansett network and livery by 1984.

An interesting there is an interesting book by Reg Adkins (I Flew For MMA (MacRobertson Miller Airlines) (http://members.upnaway.com/~sharena/) ), who flew DC-3 and F-27/28 over 30+ years. There are tabs on each of these aircraft at the top left and bottom gutter.

[frangatang]

Tinpis, Are you talking about the pssups at the aeroclub in cairns, thursday nights if l recall?

[tinpis]

Sorry mate, can't remember...

[B772]

Disappointed to hear Reg Adkin's book is out of print. I wonder how his son Alwyn is doing ?

[Fris B. Fairing]

Dora-9

It's all there on the QAM website. (http://www.qam.com.au/aircraft/friendship/VH-FNQ.htm)

Not only was FNQ the first to wear the predominantly white "Southern Cross" scheme but it was also the last to wear the ANSETT-ANA livery and therefore the last to be painted in the "Delta" scheme.

QAM's intention is to repaint her in the "Delta" scheme.

Rgds

[tinpis]

Think this was FNI
Capt. Franks last Frugal trip.
Cairns about '87
I knew the fat FO


http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y150/tinpis/aviation/frankkollarf27.jpg

[Aye Ess]

Pedota & B772,the book by Reg Adkins sometimes comes up for sale on ebay,but it would be a good idea to put a 'watch' on it. Also,many libraries have it or can get it in via inter library loans. Well worth it....it's a good read.

[Jabawocky]

I wonder how his son Alwyn is doing ?

From when I spoke with him last.....doing pretty good :ok:.

I am sure he will be pleased to see you interest in his wellbeing ;)

J:ok:

[Dora-9]

Fris B. - thanks for this, I hadn't realized about the "last Ansett-ANA" scheme bit.

PM sent.

[hei yu]

Re post #80
"Looking through the F-27 site posted earlier on, it mentions that TAA crewed the DCA Fokkers up until 1978, why was that? Would have been a very cosy little arrangement no doubt."

From the late 50s'/early 60s', DCA aircraft (incl. F27s) were operated by the DCA Flying Unit at Essendon and crewed by DCA pilots.

For details, ref Airways Museum / Civil Aviation Historical Society (http://www.airwaysmuseum.com/)
History of the Departmental Flying Unit

[john_tullamarine]

At least one of our greybeard members was a line F27 pilot with DCAFU in the early 70s until he left to go fly airlines. With any luck he will take the bait and relate some yarns of navaid survey trips and the like.

Indeed, another PPRuNer was the boss for several years a little later on. A chap of many tales who had done my initial twin training some years earlier.

Just like airlines without the hosties ... somehow the techs just didn't cut the mustard in the hostie stakes.


[For hei yu, looking at the link in the last post, I think the reference to Rod Torrington as a tech might be a little off the mark. Although, as I recall, he started off as a tech, Rod was, by then, a fairly senior electrical engineer - I was but a junior aero eng chap at the time and learned a great deal from Rod. I see Brian Surtees' photo on the poster - haven't seen him in years - do you know what he is up to these days ?]

[airsupport]

Have they got a photo of "Slom" beside her?

A couple of photos of ''slom'' with VH-FNR, one of him about to dine at the luxurious buffet in flight somewhere over Europe, and one after our arrival in England, where we left VH-FNR.

http://i1095.photobucket.com/albums/i474/airsupport/f271.jpg

http://i1095.photobucket.com/albums/i474/airsupport/f272.jpg

Finally got them right. :ugh:

With a lot of kind help from tail wheel. :ok:

[Dora-9]

Aaargh! I've seen it all now - "Slom" wearing a hat and tie????!!!!!

[airsupport]

Aaargh! I've seen it all now - "Slom" wearing a hat and tie????!!!!!

ONLY when necessary. ;)

A couple of photos of the real slom from the same trip, on a river cruise in Bangkok, and riding a camel at the Pyramids. :ok:

http://i1095.photobucket.com/albums/i474/airsupport/f273.jpg

http://i1095.photobucket.com/albums/i474/airsupport/f274.jpg

Tail wheel, PLEASE excuse the lack of an F27 in these 2 photos, we had to have some time off..............

[airsupport]

Just to get back to aircraft, and in particular the topic, Ansett Fokker Friendships, these are a few more of VH-FNR in various parts of the World.

This was in transit Bali.

http://i1095.photobucket.com/albums/i474/airsupport/f275.jpg

Overnight Singapore.

http://i1095.photobucket.com/albums/i474/airsupport/f276.jpg

In transit Calcutta.

http://i1095.photobucket.com/albums/i474/airsupport/f277.jpg

[airsupport]

http://i1095.photobucket.com/albums/i474/airsupport/f270.jpg

[Dora-9]

Lovely!

14th September 1982. The aircraft was VH-FNQ (not FNO as Stewart Wilson would have you believe in his Ansett book), the photos were taken from a Beech 36 (with the rear doors removed) near Anglesea/Lorne.

[frangatang]

The man was wise to wear more than a singlet on arrival Norwich. He looked as though he was being blown around a bit and having had to slide on my hands and knees to get to an F27 one day in a December, as it was sheet ice on the apron , in uniform , with pax looking on from the terminal building...its a ferking cold place!

[airsupport]

I am sure the weather there can get very nasty, however it wasn't too bad that day, Saturday 13th August 1988.

You can see in this other photo of the guy that was accepting the aircraft from us, he was only wearing a short sleeved shirt, no jacket or even a jumper.

http://i1095.photobucket.com/albums/i474/airsupport/f2712.jpg

I think it was more just for the official end of the ferry flight, and also our other stop earlier that day was at the Fokker Factory where they made big fuss of VH-FNR, it was the oldest F27 (then anyway) to ever return to the Factory.

[airsupport]

Just found a few more of that ferry flight with VH-FNR, and seeing how tail wheel taught me how to resize and post them I thought I would. ;)

This was our overnight stop in Delhi.

http://i1095.photobucket.com/albums/i474/airsupport/f278.jpg

Okay, these next 2 probably could be anywhere, but they ARE doing a zigzag/stepped climb out of Milan in order to get over The Alps and finally crossing The Alps on the way to Amsterdam (Fokker).

http://i1095.photobucket.com/albums/i474/airsupport/f279.jpg

http://i1095.photobucket.com/albums/i474/airsupport/f2710.jpg

[B772]

airsupport.

Is that Ken Broomhead walking towards FNR at Delhi ?

I wonder what Paul Lomas is doing these days ?

[airsupport]

Is that Ken Broomhead walking towards FNR at Delhi ?

I wonder what Paul Lomas is doing these days ?

How on Earth you can tell that from that photo, but yes you are correct. :ok:

I was trying not to use photos that identified anyone, except for Paul as people had already mentioned him.

Not sure what any of them are doing now, sure someone on PPRuNe will know.

[john_tullamarine]

How on Earth you can tell that from that photo

date narrows the field - characteristic gait and bald patch - who else could it be ?

[airsupport]

Yes as I said it is him, he was the Captain in Command of the ferry flight.

Just looked up the details of the flight, I would think that he is retired by now, also Paul will be 70 next month, assuming he is still around, which I hope he is, he was a nice bloke.

[tinpis]

"They forgot the XXXX sammichs"...

http://i1095.photobucket.com/albums/i474/airsupport/f271.jpg

One trusts Slom is well?

[airsupport]

The in flight catering was fairly basic, but we did okay on overnights. ;)

As I also said before I too hope Paul (slom) is well, does anyone here know??? :confused:

[airsupport]

Just a few more from that same trip with the Ansett F27, that may or may not be of interest.

This is the 3 Captains with VH-FNR at Broome, before we left Australia.

http://i1095.photobucket.com/albums/i474/airsupport/f2713.jpg

This is the same 3 enjoying a well earnt day off in Bahrain, shopping mainly for gold.

http://i1095.photobucket.com/albums/i474/airsupport/f2714.jpg

This one is the following day when we were transiting Jeddah on the way to overnight Cairo.

http://i1095.photobucket.com/albums/i474/airsupport/f2715.jpg

[cac_sabre]

Just finished this one today..
http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r68/sabrejet/pixie9.jpg
http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r68/sabrejet/pixie10.jpg
http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r68/sabrejet/pixie11.jpg
http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r68/sabrejet/pixie12.jpg

[boocs]

Gr8 photos!!
b.

[tinpis]

It looks like something Henk Antonov would build.

[Yobbo]

Lovely job! What scale is it?

[Fris B. Fairing]

airsupport

Can you read the registration on that Nile Safaris Aviation 707? Chances are it's the former Qantas VH-EAB which took up the rather unfortunate Sudanese registration of ST-ALL. The aircraft is still in service as an E-8C with the USAF.

Rgds

[airsupport]

Can you read the registration on that Nile Safaris Aviation 707?

No sorry, even tried blowing up the photo etc, but the quality isn't there.

IF that aircraft was with them in August 1988 then it probably is it.

[cac_sabre]

Lovely job! What scale is it?


Thanks.... its an Airfix 1/72 jobbie with home made decals

[Stationair8]

Another superb effort CAC

[frangatang]

Just flew up to the Shuttleworth collection yesterday (now that is a place to visit),
and my eye caught an airfix kit...F27, BUT in TAA colours with the rego TFF(did that exist?).
Shame on not having an Ansett one!

[tinpis]

http://www.aussieairliners.org/f-27/vh-tff/1999.928l.jpg

[Aye Ess]

Wow Tinny, at first I thought you had done a good job in photoshop,but upon checking my trusty "Airliners in Australian Service,vol 1",I see that strange combo did exist.

For those interested,VH-TFF first registered 6/59 & cancelled 10/80.(probably in service before some of the pilots who flew it were born)....leased to East-West 3/75-11/75.

[airsupport]

One of my favourite aircraft types, the Ansett Fokker Friendships. :ok:

Apart from that fantastic ferry flight half way round the world, my first ever jump seat ride was in one, out of Essendon down on the ''Islands Run", back in 1969. :ok:

Also had some odd trips with them, like the night we were going up to Bundaberg from Brisbane, and we had an RAAF Hercules and some other aircraft following us because an unidentified aircraft, believed to be carrying drug runners, was sticking VERY close to us trying to avoid being seen on radar. :eek:

[Stationair8]

TFF would been leased to East-West to cover the F-27 that was written off at Bathurst.

[Stationair8]

So what was the Fokker F-27 like to fly?

[Mach E Avelli]

By today's standards it was slow, noisy and thirsty. By the standards at the time it was good. It had a couple of challenges to those used to hydraulics (such as on the DC3), like the pneumatic nosewheel steering and brakes. To taxy smoothly took a bit of anticipation.
If pilots had come from the DC3, its crosswind handling was generally no problem. But for those brought up on more forgiving types and who did not master the proper technique, it could bite quite badly in anything over about 20 knots of crosswind. On an icy runway it got quite exciting at even 15 knots of crosswind.
The instrument and radio layouts on the early ones were awful because every operator had their own ideas about where to plant stuff in the cockpit. Later on Fokker got their act together and came up with a fairly standardized layout, discouraging operators from too many modifications.
In the air it was very stable and very, very manoeuverable. Also very strongly built. More than one was rolled during post-production test flying and one was stall-turned and looped during demonstrations to the military. Some were sold with hard points on the wings but I don't know whether any were ever actually armed, though some that went to military service were fitted with wide rear doors for meat-bombing.
The HS748, which appeared later on the scene, handled better and started out from day one with a much better cockpit, but was not quite as fast for the same fuel flow and never made the sales figures of the Fokker.
All eclipsed of course by the Dash 8 and ATR.

[Dora-9]

Mach - I don't think landing in a crosswind was ever a problem, keeping straight afterwards (when the "wake" from the props in ground fine could blanket the rudder) certainly could be!

Bit confused about your comment re different operators having different (poor) layouts given that this thread is entitled "Ansett and the Fokker Friendship"- all Ansett F27's had a quite good standard layout, which changed into a distinctly more modern layout with the advent of the -500. There were three variants of radio/autopilot fit, the Mk.2's changing at VH-FNP I think. VH-MMS when it came into the Ansett fleet from MMA still had the original horrible TAA panel, but thus thankfully was changed very quickly.

On one engine it was a modest but decent performer - however it required considerable rudder force (140 lbs rings a bell in the dim recesses of my memory) and 5 degrees bank towards the "good" engine.

My enduring impressions are of the noise (no whimpy ear protecting headsets or an intercom then; you simply shouted at each other) and starting using ship's batteries which inevitably deginerated into attempting to meter the fuel using the HP cock.

But I loved every minute...

[tinpis]

The (handling?) characteristic probably most notice I reckon is the bastard thing cant be slowed down when you want it to because of the min. torque requirement
Imagine presenting an AC for certification today with that written in the manual

[Mach E Avelli]

Dora - apologies if this is purely an Ansett thread. It appeared to have become a bit less parochial. I took the question 'what was it like to fly?' to be more general.
The very worst cockpits I ever saw were in the Gulf Air fleet, where there were four completely different layouts. One in particular had some really nasty navaid switching that would have you trying to fly the ILS in VOR mode if you were not really careful. Another had no less than 4 RMIs and 4 of those old cross-pointer ILS/VOR displays spread around the place but not an HSI in sight.
No crosswind landing is over until the rollout is complete....applying the gustlock at anything above taxy speed was a definite no-no and earned more that one of my trainees a severe bollicking if they did it at 50 knots. On an icy runway that almost guaranteed an unwelcome excursion, because the nosewheel itself was too lightly loaded to be anything more than an aid to taxying around corners.
The 40 psi torque limitation was a nuisance, but could be worked around. It was known that most of the potential for layshaft shuttling occured at low power settings, but considered by some engineers that the powertrain could tolerate short periods at flight idle. So, if too high and fast, the situation could usually be salvaged by pulling all the power off for a short burst, thus adding heaps of drag from the props. Don't get me started on those wonderful propellers - truly engineering masterpieces. These props were not exclusive to the F27 as all RR Darts sported a version of them. Absolutely brilliant, and the best auto-feather system even today, because it's always there if you need it.

[CharlieLimaX-Ray]

Didn't Air Queensland operate the F-27 for a period in the mid 1980's before getting the ATR-42's?

What sought of TAS and cruise altitude would an F-27 obtain on a 200nm leg?

[airsupport]

Didn't Air Queensland operate the F-27 for a period in the mid 1980's

Yes, they certainly did.

All this Ansett F27 talk is bringing back many other memories.

Like the run from BNE-GLT every afternoon and back in the morning, normally a race with the TAA F27.

I remember one particular morning we got out of Gladstone first and into Bundaberg first, but our Captain was very disappointed that TAA departed Bundy before us and arrived into Maryborough first. :uhoh:

TAA left there first, then after we departed our captain requested a special low level clearance, telling the pax it was for their benefit to give them a great view of the scenery, which it did. ;)

Of course we scooted along low and fast and then when TAA requested descent into Brisbane they were slowed down due ''other traffic'' below them. :uhoh:

WE WON........... :ok:

[frigatebird]

TAA Fokker at Maryborough 1972, with Island Airways Cherokee 6 waiting for Orchid Beach connecting passengers (Ansett taxying in)

http://i784.photobucket.com/albums/yy129/bird__photo/Aero%20Club/TAAFokkeratMyb1972.jpg

They were bringing engineers, there was another Ansett broken Fokker sitting on the threshold of 35, with a pneumatic nosewheel steering problem.

http://i784.photobucket.com/albums/yy129/bird__photo/Aero%20Club/AnsettFokkeratMyb1972.jpg

(p.s. sorry about the mould on these old slides, but they should clean up reasonably well..)

[john_tullamarine]

it could bite quite badly in anything over about 20 knots of crosswind.

Can recall going into Cooma one blustery day with Peter K. Peter was driving and (without looking up the charts I can't recall the runways) but we were aligned with the other runway due drift sufficient to the point that the FS chap queried just which runway we were trying to find.

The instrument and radio layouts on the early ones were awful because every operator had their own ideas about where to plant stuff in the cockpit.

As most of the AN machines were fitted out worse than the average GA Cessna, I guess it didn't matter all that much .. especially when one considers just how simplistic the cockpit was.

The HS748, which appeared later on the scene, handled better and started out from day one with a much better cockpit, but was not quite as fast for the same fuel flow and never made the sales figures of the Fokker.

As I recall the F27 started off around 1958 and the 748 1960.

So far as Australia was concerned, I was advised by several (who ought to have been in the know) that AN/TAA were intending to sign up for the 748 mainly due to runway length problems in the network.

Donald George (who was DG from the mid 50s) then made the unilateral decision that DCA would extend all airline country runways to a minimum of 5000ft. Exit the 748 plan (200 kts or thereabouts) and enter the F27 from stage left (230 odd kts).

Then again, many years later, I was doing some engineering work on the 748 and obtained an OEM report on lightweight operations of the beast out of what could euphemistically be termed .. soft surfaces. Quite an impressive beast .. to the extent that, were it a horse, one would have had a flutter on it for the Caulfield recently.

I don't think landing in a crosswind was ever a problem,

On one engine it was a modest but decent performer - however it required considerable rudder force

crosswinds might have been interesting (although I can't recall any great problem - especially considering the conservative limit imposed by DCA when the Type was introduced here) but everyone will recall the shaking leg on asy details. So far as performance .. I have visions of going out of Tennant on both - wet - and going nowhere fast ...

My enduring impressions are of the noise (no whimpy ear protecting headsets or an intercom then; you simply shouted at each other)

Which is why I (and a lot of others ex-AN) am three-parts deaf with the characteristic Rootes blower audiogram signature ...

The 40 psi torque limitation was a nuisance, but could be worked around.

Memory probably is a bit rusty now but my recollection is that the problem existed if one constrained the torque in the range 0-40psi (?). That is to say, either close the throttles or keep it above 40 but stay out of the low range (?). With miniscule planning effort keeping above 40 wasn't a difficulty as I recall.

the best auto-feather system even today, because it's always there at high power if you need it.

Can recall on my initial AN endorsement, the IP (Ted W) demonstrating successive feather/unfeather on an example with the SEP2 (?) autopilot .. the aircraft just motored along on track with the ASI going up and down as one might expect. Now, the ALJ-30 (?) was a completely different animal.

[Dora-9]

JT - only three-parts deaf? Sorry, speak up, I can't hear you.

Me too.

[zlin77]

Is that VH-CDK?

[frigatebird]

There was a CIA.. if memory serves correctly.. (it eventually ended up in the bush at the end of the Orchid Beach strip after an engine failure on takeoff..)

[skylane]

Enjoying the photos and tales - keep them coming. Imagine it would be a long way from Australia to Europe in the F27.

[tinpis]

Did Ansett operate the Frugal in the West or was that MMA? It must have been hell grinding over those routes.

[airsupport]

Did Ansett operate the Frugal in the West or was that MMA?

Not 100% sure what happened later on, but I was over in Perth in the late 1960s specifically for the F27s, and although I worked for Ansett the F27s were operated by MMA, Ansett had taken over MMA, which was NOT popular in MMA. The F27s were in MMA colours then and operated as they always had, NOT the same way as Ansett.

Not sure if they eventually changed them to Ansett colours or not before they finished operating in WA?

[Mach E Avelli]

"Imagine it would be a long way from Australia to Europe in the F27".

At one stage in order to place new ones in the market, Fokker or the various leasing companies had to take old ones back in trade. Their overhaul facility at Ypenberg could not always cope, so Air NZ got in on the act doing major checks at Christchurch. Several were ferried to and from Europe and the Mid-East to NZ. On average it was a week each way, with vital crew rest in Bangkok. Purely to meet the flight and duty regulations, of course....
Others went the other way across the Atlantic to the USA to be converted into small parcel freighters. Good fun in winter.
On one occasion ferrying from Ypenberg to Tehran, we momentarily drifted into Russian airspace (pre-GPS) due to a dodgy NDB up near the northern Iranian border. Lucky it was the dead of winter and very dark. The Russkies were probably full of vodka because they did not come after us.

[airsupport]

Enjoying the photos and tales - keep them coming. Imagine it would be a long way from Australia to Europe in the F27.

Okay, not many photos left though.

Yes, although many aircraft do the flight every day, usually with only one stop, it is a VERY LONG flight in an F27.

With the VH-FNR ferry we took 9 days including a free day (day off) in Bahrain.

The first day was the longest, and we didn't even leave Australia. The first leg Melbourne (Tullamarine) to Alice Springs was the longest leg, we almost had to divert to Leigh Creek for fuel. Then to Broome for our first overnight, have already posted a photo of the 3 Captains in Broome, and this is VH-FNR the morning we left Tullamarine, AN 767 behind.

http://i1095.photobucket.com/albums/i474/airsupport/f27020.jpg

Next morning we finally departed Australia, and after a transit in Denpasar we overnighted (Seletar) Singapore.

The third day was the shortest, only one leg to Bangkok.

Then day 4 was from Bangkok, a transit in Calcutta before overnight Delhi.

Have already posted some photos of those places and this is another from Delhi.

http://i1095.photobucket.com/albums/i474/airsupport/f27021-1.jpg

Day 5 was from Delhi via Karachi to Bahrain overnight, where we also had a well deserved day off, this is VH-FNR in Bahrain.

http://i1095.photobucket.com/albums/i474/airsupport/f27022.jpg

To be continued...................................

[airsupport]

Day 7 (after day off) we left Bahrain really early, and after transit of Jeddah, arrived nice and early in Cairo for overnight, and in time to go and visit the Pyramids etc, see earlier photo.

Day 8 was from Cairo to a transit in Athens, one of the busiest air spaces I had seen at the time, to overnight in Milan.

On departure Cairo it is (was) illegal to overfly the Pyramids, so the Captain flying that leg banked FNR at the apprpriate time so I could get this photo of them.

http://i1095.photobucket.com/albums/i474/airsupport/f27023.jpg

And VH-FNR in Milan, where the bus they sent out to us, just for Crew, was as big as FNR.

http://i1095.photobucket.com/albums/i474/airsupport/f27024.jpg

Day 9 was from Milan, via the Fokker Factory, to our final destination of Norwich in England.

The F27 was very reliable, as usual, only problems were with a maxaret playing up sometimes and no wet power on one engine a couple of times, neither of these things slowed us down as we were using major airports with massive long runways (for an F27).

Only ''scare" was one day an emergency beacon went off near where we were, which was near where that Airbus was shot down, but it turned out to be an oil rig.

That is about it....................... :ok:

[tinpis]

Yes there was a certain "Thou shalt do it as it is done in the West" :hmm:

[airsupport]

Thou shalt do it as it is done in the West

Yes, definitely, however don't get me wrong, they were very nice people, and a very good operator, just they resented being told to do things differently to the way they were by their new Big Brother (Ansett).

I guess it happens at most places where a Company is taken over.

[Stationair8]

Tinpis, Mickey Mouse Airlines operated the F-27 from Perth around to Groote Eylandt and all ports in between. The Fokker would have been a lot more comfortable than the DC-3, still would have been some long days in the saddle!

I think at one stage the MMA Fokkers were doing the most hours and had the highest daily utilisation of any operator in the world.

Worth getting a copy of the book, I Flew for MMA.

In the boook he makes mention of the healthy disrespect that the real Ansett pilots had for their cousins in the west! Meanwhile the MMA boys regarded their Ansett brothers as controlled airspace pilots only!

[Dora-9]

Stationair 8:

“I flew for MMA” is truly an excellent book with amazing detail - Reg Adkins either had an exceptional memory or was a prodigious note-taker. But don’t forget his only airline experience was with MMA. Therefore, he might just have been a little biased, mightn’t he?

“Meanwhile the MMA boys regarded their Ansett brothers as controlled airspace pilots only!”

What utter crap! When I started in Ansett 1970, Melbourne-based F.27’s operated (at a quick count) to Adelaide, Leigh Creek, Oodnadatta, Alice Springs, Tennant Creek, Tindal, Darwin, Melbourne, Hamilton, Mt. Gambier, Warrnambool, Portland, King Island, Smithton, Wynyard, Devonport, Launceston, Hobart, Flinders Island, Mildura, Broken Hill, Wagga, Canberra, Cooma, Corryong and Albury. That’s 27 ports, and 19 of them were OCTA. The proportions for Brisbane and Cairns-based crews would have been similar.


Airsupport:

“they were very nice people, and a very good operator, just they resented being told to do things differently to the way they were by their new Big Brother (Ansett)”.

This statement is true as far as it goes, but there’s much more to this story. Being typically parochial West Australians, MMA staff certainly did resent being taken over by Ansett (or anyone else from the much-vaunted The East).

They suffered a typical small airline complex in that they were totally antagonistic to any ideas they hadn’t thought of themselves (the “not invented here” syndrome). They had an unshakable belief in just how good they were. The small management/flight standards/training group was incredibly insular, and ensured that any new blood was only admitted if he were to adopt and promote existing ideas. Their procedures and outlook were firmly wedded in the DC-3 era. When the F.27 arrived, was treated as though it was faster than Concorde/bigger than a Jumbo – you had to be an ace to fly it in their eyes. This insularity was reinforced by the introduction of the F.28, since for many years they were the sole operator of this type within the ATI Group and hence removed from any exterior input.

In fact, they weren't a bad airline at all, but they had a dangerously inflated self-regard.

Had they remained totally separate with their pilots never to have flown anything less forgiving than the F.28, this probably wouldn’t have mattered very much in the big scheme of things (other than to those forced to listen to them). The integration of the entire ATI pilot group in the late 1970’s meant that there was to be interchange between Ansett Airlines, ANSW, ASA & MMA. As an example, a pilot could be initially trained by one of the subsidiaries and then subsequently move to another group. It became readily apparent that wildly different standards and procedures existed (you’ll recall an earlier posting with the statement that one of Ansett’s great strengths was their standardization; it became obvious that this only applied to Ansett Airlines; the subsidiaries clearly tailored their procedures to whoever was captain on that particular flight). Even worse in the MMA case was the shabby treatment of anyone who had the temerity to go there; I can recall several cases of pilots with previously unblemished records being rejected by MMA as totally unsuitable and, conversely, some pilots trained by them, to put it kindly, were incapable of fitting into a L188/DC-9/B727 operation. There were also many cases when training reports were, at best, simply dishonest.

One of Sir Peter’s better ideas was to place Ansett Flight Ops (with responsibility for flight standards) above all the Ansett Group to ensure commonality. To their great credit, both ASA and ANSW were enthusiastic and very helpful to facilitate this. MMA’s ingrained belief in the own superiority produced much complaining before they eventually toed the line.

[tinpis]

Well written Dora

Standards. It was a nice feeling to sit in a Boeing seat with any fellow AN'er and know EXACTLY what happened next. When you lined up to press the TOGA switches you could concentrate fully on what was ahead, not left behind on the tarmac.

[airsupport]

Dora-9,

I don't know why you even mention what I said. :confused:

I said nothing wrong, and I was being kind. :ok:

I was over there working for Ansett, but with MMA for the F27 while a lot of their people were doing initial F28 training.

They were good people and good operators, just as I said they VERY much resented being taken over by Ansett and having to change the way they did things. :ok:

[skylane]

Did Ansett ever get or use a simulator for the F27/F50?

[donderwolkje]

No, but we had a "systems" trainer of the cockpit with prop lights, boost pumps and things that went on and off with a switch pannel on the outside.
For all IFR re-newals, we belted around in a link trainer every six months, including a DME homing effort. (instuctor usually went home for lunch while one tried to find the fix)

Regards..

[skylane]

Ah yes, the DME homing! As you say, the instructor would go and have lunch! A lot of fun, but useful. Can remember that going to Strahan on the west coast of Tassie, the DME letdown was quicker than the NDB. You usually got the DME well before the NDB (30nm range).

[hoss]

EWP the first aeroplane that I ever flew!

(as a young kid on work experience with EWA, night freight SYD-BNE)

now 12000 hours later still a very memorable moment, especially the laughs from the other blokes watching me strangle the controls:).

[B772]

Dora -9. Agree with all you said.

In addition when AN decided to operate a weekly DC9 service DRW-PER and return service with an intermediate stop at PHE during the 1970's the MV pilots demanded the flying saying it was "theirs".

AN were forced into providing a DC9 endorsement for a number of MV pilots who also continued to fly the F28. The route was an AN profit and loss route and put AN at a cost disadvantage compared with the equivalent TN DC9 operation.

One of the MV pilots endorsed was Capt Col S.i.h who was I think the head honcho within MV at the time. Some of the MV pilots struggled with the DC9 initially. It was the belief in AN this was due to the mindset within MV over the years. The AN DC9 trainers were very generous towards the MV pilots.

The same could not be said for the MV pilots who trained some WX pilots on the F28. An AN F/O I knew decided to bid for a F28 command slot in MV. He was 'failed' by the MV system and returned to his F/O position in AN. He eventually obtained his command within AN.

[tinpis]

I had plans at one time on bidding for an F-28 slot in the west and was told by AN mates don't. My cheery bubbly personality would clash..... :rolleyes:

[Stationair8]

Tinpis you would have fitted in like a frog in a sock at MMA!

Okay its the mid 1970's you have survived a couple of years in GA, you have passed your SCPL, got an Instrument Rating and you done some time in the Baron/PA-23/C310 and you get a call from Ansett.

What was involved with ground school, endorsement, line training and eventually line flying etc. How long did the process take? After the endorsement would do night freight or passengers? How long would you spend on the F-27, before moving onto the Electra, DC-9 or B727?

[Dora-9]

The most important single requirement to get into MMA was to be a West Australian!

I joined Ansett in early 1970 - ground school one month, the following month Link and aircraft endorsement (no simulator; 5 sessions of 3-4 hours each shared by 2 students), then line training (10 weeks; 100 sectors/87 hours). I was "Cleared to the Line" 4 months & one week after joining.

We were told that we'd all be on the F.28 or DC-9 after 2 years which didn't happen. An economic downturn and the failure of the F.28 out of Sydney fixed that! I was transferred to the DC-4/Carvair fleet at the end of my first year (no Bid Rights in the first two years), returned to the F.27 at the end of my second year (I missed day flying and the girls!) and spent 2 more years before going onto the DC-9.

[tinpis]

I think from mates that joined about 72 you would get an F27 command Melbourne in about 15 years?
Brisbane a 737.
Post '89 the world was your oyster :rolleyes:

[boocs]

Dora,

All very true words, and I can personally confirm that some of these attitudes remained in the west until the F-28 was finally withdrawn from service. All very strange. It was like a space shuttle mission sometimes going from PER to KTA!!! The attitudes on the 146 fleet were so much more refreshing and in touch with reality!
b.

[Dora-9]

Tinpis:

I don't think it slowed down that much for 1972 joiners - joining at the start of 1970, I checked out as a MEL-based F.27 captain in Jan 1979.

[Stationair8]

Would have been a culture shock going back onto the Carvair?

When did AirNSW stop running the F-27 out to Broken Hill, as it makes the odd appearance in the TV series Flying Doctors?

[B772]

Stationair8

I do not know the date of the last WX SYD-BHQ F27. The last GJ ADL-BHQ
F27 was on 9 Mar 86 with FNP.

Your reference to The Flying Doctors remids me of an actor by the name of Steve Dodds who appeared a number of times in the series. Steve was employed by WX for a number of years as a tour guide for Charters in Central Australia.

[tinpis]

In Feb '86 the F28 was being used on SYD-BHill

[sixtiesrelic]

I was fourteen years getting a command in Brissy.
I wouldn't move south.
My peers headed off to Sydney from Brisbane for a command in about ten to twelve years.
The blokes in Melbourne were out years before us, because many senior F.Os transferred to Melbouerne to get a command and then got back as soon as a slot became available in Brisbane for them.
Like Dora, I did roughly the same school and endorsement time and was on the line a week under four months from ground school.

[tinpis]

Speaking of ANSW, anybody hear from the "Clam" these days?

[Dog One]

Was the Air Cruising F27 ex Ansett or TAA?

[cac_sabre]

VH-NLS Fokker F.27 Friendship (http://www.aussieairliners.org/f-27/vh-nls/vhnls.html)
VH-TFH Fokker F.27 Friendship (http://www.aussieairliners.org/f-27/vh-tfh/vhtfh.html)

[CharlieLimaX-Ray]

When did TAA/Australian Airlines put through the last intake of F-27 pilots?

Did TAA run F-27's on the Melbourne to Mildura route?

[Dora-9]

Melbourne - Mildura was always an Ansett route, never TAA.

[emeritus]

Ahh...Overnights at the Grand Hotel in Mildura in the early 70's. Have fond memories of their homemade marmalade slathered over a slice of toast and consumed in the crew bus on the way to the a/p. Best marmalade in the world !!

;) ;)

Emeritus

[frigatebird]

Ansett Fokker nosewheel steering problem 1969

http://i784.photobucket.com/albums/yy129/bird__photo/Aero%20Club/AnsettFokkernosewheelproblem69.jpg

[skylane]

Any one remember the cruise figures, best altitude etc, compared to the current Brasilia/Dash 8/Saab figures

[Dora-9]

From distant and failing memory, we saw around 210 KTAS and cruised FL150-180.

[zlin77]

F27-500 from memory about 720Kg/HR

[donderwolkje]

Stage length 100nm isa+10 FL115
150nm " FL145
200nm FL165
250nm FL180
300nm FL195

Speed VNE 254/234Kts
VNO 223Kts
VMCA 80Kts
Stall @20,000Kg 40deg flap 72Kts

Fuel Tot usable 8972Lbs
Planned @ 1300 Lbs/Hr

Norm cruise rate for planning 230Kts/1500Lbs/hr

Max BRWT 20,410Kg Max land wt 18,597Kg ( Various marks differed)

Regards......................

[Dora-9]

Donder,

Dunno what model F.27 you're thinking about (although the 20,410 kgs BRW sounds very much like the -500 as what Ansett called "Mk.2's" were 19,731 kgs) but your figures sound very much like what Fokker's glossy brochure claimed.

I doubt I ever saw anything above 220 KTAS on a good day, and there's no way you'd get to FL 195 (even with the post-1982 climb thrust) unless it was a ferry.

Again this is from distant memory (frightening that I remember the 19,731 figure though) and I flew mainly the Mk.2 although did some time in the -500...

[greybeard]

We must have been on steroids in MMA.

Regularly and as a "requirement" FL 200 DRB-PER or PER-DRB on the schedule, took a little skill and daring so to speak and heavy usually.

220 Kts is my recolection as well, 5.5 hrs-6.0 hrs from my log book 1972 for those legs.

Good fun and good days, pity they have gone in the mess the industry is now.

:ok:

[Dora-9]

Hi Greybeard!

I seem to recall, though I never operated this sector, that the PER-DRB FL200 requirement wasn't performance related. Something to do with rated coverages perhaps? It must have been a struggle...

[donderwolkje]

Dora-r
I wasn't quoting what you actually got out of the old girl, just some figures from my old notes.
"flap up, trim up, water meth off'


Regards

[donderwolkje]

Sorry, that should have been Dora-9. Slip of the pen as they say.

MMO/MMS Max BRwt 19,731, MMV/MMR 20,410 as was most of the FN. series A/C)

Last time I poled an F27 was to Duxford UK to display, after not seeing one for nigh on 8 years. Scared the S..T out of me.....

Regards ...............

[greybeard]

Dora-9, yes rated coverage of navaids with a time/distance factor as I recall.

FL200 was an effort southbound, had to make it by "Walker??", fly level, get some extra kts, up a bit and so on. Allowed us to go via NWN rather than WIT/ abeam PHE for the fix. Bloddy DCA were becoming anal in some areas as the DC-3 was fading out

better than DC-3 just the same.

:ok:

[Dora-9]

Donder, I was going to respond with "where the hell are you getting your numbers from?", but a cup of tea and a lie down later, plus further research indicates we're both correct!

Bulletin 367, issued on 22.12.1983 increased the weights for VH-FNO, FNP, FNQ, FNT, FNU, FNV, FNW, MMO & MMS (i.e. all the surviving -200/-400/-600's). The MBRW became 20410 kgs. I think this brought them up to the -500 figures.

Prior to this, the MBRW was 19731 for all of them (excluding the -500's) was 19,731 kgs.

Cheers!

In my defence, I left the fleet in September 1983.

[donderwolkje]

Dora-9

Thank's and cheers.

D.

[By George]

The F27 might have been fun as a Capt but as an FO what memories! One certain Capt would park with the wing tip over a drain to make it next to impossible to get the pitot cover off with that stupid stick thingy. (He found it amusing apparently). Dragging out that ground cart on a cold winter morning, manual load sheets, securing the webbing etc all while his Lordship had a fag and a yarn with the locals up against the boundary fence. The check flights where a nightmare having to know all the drain holes and such vital things as to where is the primary heat exchanger and which intake is the secondary. (sorry Dora-9 you were ok). Then the overnights, under the staircase for the boy in Mildura with the ceiling the stair-well in reverse. Every time someone went up or down it was like an earthquake. I always seemed to be the FO on Initial Command checkouts with the tension level akin to having dinner with the ex-wife. I must admit the 'track trips' were fun though. Apart from the hearing loss I would do it all again, we're a strange lot.

[sixtiesrelic]

I'm with you George, although the weather was better in Brissy.
I didn't particularly like the Mouse. I came from DC-3s. In really thinking about it I didn't like the aeroplane it's systems and it's being operated like a jet rather than an older generation prop aircraft that it was.

There was the fun of hoping old Rexy would stuff up one day with his cutting both engines as he left the runway and coasted in, but he was an 'old and bold' and always needed the brakes to stop her.
Ron C. when he was a FO, tried just sneaking a tiny bit of brake on to fix the old bugg*r but Rex was onto it straight away and told him to get his feet off the brakes.
There were many fun activities like landing on the grass at Maryborough and Bundy just for fun. Five hundred feet up the beach and over Green Island Being the only airliner that could take off at Brissy and all ports north in cyclones and having to fly in them.
Flying in cyclones wasn't particularly bad; lots of drift and flight planning for interesting alternates but it wasn't overly rough. One topped at about 6500 feet and we cruised way above it.
The pleasure was being with the blokes who were all uptight on getting their command and watching them relax and get naughty as their experience increased.
They taught me heaps and slowly I stopped dying the death before and during checks from ostmosis.
Half them smoked like chimneys in the cockpit and all except Rexy mucked in doing the job.
Rexy left the lot to the F O specially on overnights when he talked to the groundstaff and left us to put 'er to bed and again in the morning we were left to get the locks 'n chocks out, do our job AND his, while he chatted to the pax in the terminal and carried little kids out to the aircraft for their mothers.
That got him in the end. The poor blo*dy FO managed to forget the nose gear lock in the mad rush to get everything ready after arriving at the drome much later than normal as was the way with our Rexy.
When the nose gear didn't come up, Old Rexy knew immediately why ... (previous experience someone has kept Stchoom about for decades?)
This time the gear collapsed and DCA was in on it.
FO got nailed to the wall and was about to be flogged with barbed wire when one of the more unpopular DCA coves said, "Wait a minute... isn't it the Captain's responsibility..."
The F O didn't get the sack after all and proved beyond doubt that he was a fine operator by later becoming a popular Check Captain.
We FLEW the Mouse and learned our craft from blokes who'd been taught airmanship from blokes who'd been taught airmanship from old Waries and chaps who'd flown with Kingsford Smith.
Too bad we lost that knowlege base a couple of decades ago and now read the laments of pilots who are overworked, haven't had that grounding and are going to train 200 hour cadets to operate auto pilots that do exactly what's in-putted into computers while scootin' along at eight miles a minute.

[john_tullamarine]

Dragging out that ground cart on a cold winter morning, manual load sheets, securing the webbing etc

Character building stuff

all while his Lordship had a fag and a yarn with the locals up against the boundary fence.

has to be some privilege with rank, (even if it only was 2½ bars to start with) .. and he probably did his time on the same 10 years earlier ...

under the staircase for the boy in Mildura

the Grand was my favourite pub .. you can keep your Hiltons and Sheratons ..

I always seemed to be the FO on Initial Command checkouts with the tension level akin to having dinner with the ex-wife.

Donder and I can relate to that .. when we were intake we had a like number of initial commands going through at the same time. Great fun and a good bunch of blokes.

I must admit the 'track trips' were fun though.

probably best not to venture too close to track trip stories until all the participants have died and the statute of limitations has expired.

Apart from the hearing loss

you're probably just as deaf as I am .. I guess the Ta-tas guys are better with their having used decent headsets on the Mouse.

FO got nailed to the wall ... isn't it the Captain's responsibility..."

One of my contemporaries and a fine chap - he never appeared to be bitter about the incident at all, though.

Too bad we lost that knowlege base a couple of decades ago

.. and now no-one, other than the older folk, appear to perceive the problems associated with the Industry's dumbing down ...

[donderwolkje]

Just in case any of you have forgotten!!!!!

"Third oil line valve".

With this type of propeller, the pitch lock is unlatched by the admittance of pressure oil into the lock operating (Third ) oil line.
The admittance of pressure oil into this line is governed by a (Third) oil line valve in the controller unit, which isolates the pressure side on the unit pump from the lock operating oil line. The (third) oil line valve consists of a double- headed valve on a common stem, together with their respective seatings.
The double-headed valve stem abuts a small piston. With the valve in its normal position, the lock operating oil line is isolated from the pump pressure side of the controller unit by one valve which is closed on its seating, but opens to the low pressure drain side of the controller unit via the other valve which is of its seating.
A lock-withdrawal solenoid incorporated in the controller unit allows the (third) oil line valve to be hydraulically moved to admit pressure oil into the lock operating line.

There, why did we have so much trouble understanding that in the first place???

Regards.........

[skylane]

The BOW of the F27 must have been reasonably high, compared to the Saab/Brasilia. With a 20.0 tonne MTOW on the F27, the SAAB/Brasilia are about 12.0 tonne MTOW for 36/30 pax. Shows the advances in construction and more fuel efficient power plants.

[donderwolkje]

Skylane,
Zero fuel Wt early type 16,207 kg
Later type 17,023 Kg
500's 17,930 Kg

Empty A/C Wt Various from 12,296 to 13,068 (FNQ with freight floor fitted.)

About 3.5 tones to play with!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Regards

[donderwolkje]

Ps
500's were 52 seaters.
not bad for an old girl

Regards

[B772]

Skylane.

Do not forget the F27-200/400/600's could carry 44 pax and the F27-500 56 pax if the seat pitch of the SF340/Brasilia were applied. The F27's also had a major galley and in some cases heavy duty floors for QC operations as well as heavy doors.

In my opinion the aircraft are in different categories.

Some other major differences
Number of cabin crew
Fuel capacity
Payload/range

The F27's were solid as a rock and I doubt the SF340/Brasilia will ever match the hours/cycle limit of the F27.

[john_tullamarine]

"Third oil line valve".

Mate, if you did that all from memory, I owe you a beer or 20. I can only recall something about coarsening and going in to effect same ...

[skylane]

On the numbers in this thread, it looks like the -500 had a usable payload of about 4.9 tonne, 52 punters and baggage would be a juggle. The numbers I have on the Brasilia gives a payload of 3.0 tonne for 30 pax. The Brasilia would go further on the same amount of fuel with a TAS of 280 kts and the ability to cruise above F250, As far as longitivity goes, I guess the F27 should last longer being a more solid aircraft, compared to the Brasilia. I understand some of the Australian registered Brasilia's are in the mid 30,000 hrs range and still flying. I would suppose the Saab's of Rex would be in a similar position

[emeritus]

I can still hear the words of Ray Lancaster in my ears.." IF ever the "Below Low Lock Light" is ON and the "Low Stop Removed" Light is out and oil pressure is available, AUTO COARSENING WILL OCCUR!!

Having done 2 Dart schools...Viscount and F27 I almost had the 3rd oil line sorted !:ugh::ugh:

Emeritus

[who_cares]

As a pimply faced teenage baggage handler in coffs harbour I have fond memories of the f27. Didn't think too much of it at the time, but plugging in the battery cart just a metre or so away from a running prop, I'm sure that wouldn't be aloud these days with osh. The public holiday schedule with flights arriving into the early am. Listening to the capt's and fo's of the time, thinking to myself this is want I want to do for a living.
25 odd years later now, have had a cpl for 21 yrs and currently a capt on a b737
Keep the stories coming fellas

[peuce]

Well ... I can also recall at Coffs Harbour, during my flying training, mixing it with the "flying bananas" .

Some of you may remember the days when the F27s were painted .... canary yellow ... I guess as a visibility enhancement. Well, it worked. I never ran into any of the Flying Bananas as they shot in along the coast.

The standard procedure between us (newbie learners) and the banana drivers was ... " I'll stay over the water, if you stay over the land" . Worked a treat in the Coffs AFIZ days and made us feel really proud, as ... we were "mixing it with the big boys".

[tinpis]

Ah Coffs..I once split the arse out of my trousers there doing the usual stretch, step,heave entry through the front freight door.
Luckily one of the girls had a towel so I could wrap up and leave the tarmac with some dignity in SYD. :hmm:

[By George]

Reminds me of the story doing the rounds in those days of Ken 'G' who had a reputation with the ladies. Flying low along the coast near Coffs he said to the F/As;
"Come up the front and I'll show you the biggest bannana in the world!"
Trouble was it went over the PA by mistake and one young lass urgently rushed into the cockpit to advise Ken of his mistake. On leaving the cockpit a front row pax said; "well........ was it?" (There was a large fibre-glass one on the roadside, I presume it's still there).

[dhavillandpilot]

The Ken G.... story is absolutely correct, as my father was the captain on that flight and I recall hime re counting it at each reunion.

Funnily enought no one got into "hot water" over it.

Guess it was time when political correctness hadn't taken oveth world.

Also my father and Ken G use to sing the F27 check list - apparently neither could sing and the flight attendants would cringe.

Happier days.

[tinpis]

I knew another AN bloke who was the highest paid F27 driver in the world at the time.

[Capt Fathom]

Was it true that some guys did their commands on the F27, then after a while, having got being the captain out of their system, returned to their home bases as FO's, where their seniority, pay, and lifestyle returned to normal!

[B772]

Capt Fathom

There were a number of AN F27 Captains in the 1980's who returned to F/O status on jets when there was a downturn in the F27 flying. They were not disadvantaged financially.

[Dora-9]

tinpis - there were several!

The "Bypass Pay" system ensured you got payed for the type your seniority qualified you for if you were asked to stay back on the F.27. Hence some of the more senior F.27 checkers were actually being payed as B737 Check Captains while the management types were being paid as B727 Checkers.

If you listened carefully when engaging the starter, behind the great clunk of the solenoids engaging you could hear the "ker-ching!" of a cash register.

Is presume this is what you meant?

[donderwolkje]

B772

I was one of them!!!!

Regards..

[Dora-9]

B772

In the 80's (as I recall) a B767 FO was paid more than a F.27 Line Captain. So when a certain F.27 "ace captain" was demoted back to FO (do the phrases "low flying", "beat up" and Alice Springs" ring a bell?) his so-called punishment was to get a higher salary!

[tinpis]

Must mention the nice AN Doctor. They gave us old buggers a medical before the F27 course hoping to thin us out us there. Doc asked me what sport was I keen on. I replied I jogged a bit.He looked over my 100kg frame and said "Hmm...we'll put down horse racing shall we?"

[sixtiesrelic]

Ah but back in Madang in the olden days, you were sylph like Tinny.

One of the interesting phenomena in the Mouse was the number of 'Call me Captains' in the subsidiaries.

Blokes who were SENIOR captains in tinpot concerns were right up themselves, yet the senior Jet blokes, except for a few Melbournians (and they are a different breed anyway) in the mainlines knew they'd 'made it' and didn't need to strut and demand respect.
The subs had some real interesting captains too who were a bit of a law unto themselves and did things their way. Yeah! I know both TAA and Ansett had one each of them too.
A mate told me stories of one old F27 commander who had his own letdowns out in western NSW. "Bugger the letdown charts leave them in ya bag son!"
He had checked out the lay of the country and did his own NDB runway approaches.
'When ya've flown through flack and had coves shootin' bullets at ya son ya get a strong sense of survival and common sense".
Musta worked because they didn't crash in the Mouse.
The FOs had to have a sort of library of "How this bloke wants things done" that he raked up from his memory when he signed on.
The old Bast*rds flew THEIR way every leg unless they were being checked, then without ever practising, flew beautiful by the book check flights.
We learned a lot from all their little ways though, which came in handy when little surprises caught us out.
SOPs... safe but prooduce monkeys...Those who've flown aeroplanes with interesting colour schemes in the lower latitudes can tell ya stories.

[tinpis]

Casino on a veeeery soggy day skipper with a lifetime on the Frugal (MT)says "Just keep flying the approach mate".
Well this old mate been in a few soggy situations himself before and I'm buggered if I see anything resembling land-ho.
Needless to say he takes control, points her a bit and we roll on and unlock the props.
Pax waiting at the gate said "I knew it was old M...we wouldn't be stuck here " :p

[Dog One]

Was there much improvement in performance between the F27 and F50. I would hazard a guess that the PW in the F50 would have a better fuel sgr than the Dart. How much difference was there in the weights of the two engines?

[tinpis]

F50 should have worked. Maybe not the correct engine yet? As someone pointed out way better hull than 340 and they didnt have to tool up for it. They would have Cloggies that could build them in their sleep.

[Stationair8]

What routes did Connellan's operate the F-27 on?

Imagine the PC police today if Captain KenG made that comment in front of a FA!!!

Must be a bit more to be told about the low flying incident at Alice Springs?

[john_tullamarine]

Must be a bit more to be told about the low flying incident at Alice Springs?

As I recall,

(a) the captain involved on the flight conducted a lowish pass along the runway, it being his last flight on the Mouse prior to moving back onto the jet fleet.

(b) a transit 727 (?) captain took exception to the pass and advised management

(c) the captain involved was put back into the RHS on the jet fleet as penance for a period and then transitioned to the 727 as captain after his time in the sin bin

(d) I suspect that the captain involved was a little put out on the basis that others had done other things not terribly dissimilar without penalty

(e) the captain involved went on to an interesting career O/S post-89 and retired to Gippsland not all that long ago with an interest in occasional consulting work

Probably, apart from the observation that he might have done things differently had he possessed a crystal ball on the day, the incident is pretty well ancient history and not all that exciting in the overall scheme of things. I can recall a number of flights with other captains during my initial time in AN wherein far more "interesting" things were done ...

I guess, though, so long as folk don't go out of their way to identify the chap, the tale remains amongst the Mouse legends. I'm equally sure that he would just as soon the matter disappear into the aether and never again resurface ...

Not having seen him for some years, I ran into him a few months ago and we had a very pleasant hour or two over coffee reminiscing about this and that.

[Dora-9]

Again, this is based on recollection, but it differs considerably from JT’s version!

(a)the captain involved on the flight conducted a lowish pass along the runway, it being his last flight on the Mouse prior to moving back onto the jet fleet.

The “lowish pass” also incorporated at least one steep turn where the wingtip was reported by the entire AN B727 crew as “being at most six feet above the ground”. It was certainly NOT scheduled as his last flight as a F.27 Captain as he was only checked out 12 months before.

(b)a transit 727 (?) captain took exception to the pass and advised management

Frankly the crews of both (AN and TAA) B727’s were appalled, but the AN Captain had the decency to wait until “the ace” had taxied in before telling him to his face that he was about to report him…

(c)the captain involved was put back into the RHS on the jet fleet as penance for a period and then transitioned to the 727 as captain after his time in the sin bin

True in part. He was downgraded for 5 years (he went to the B767), but for the aggressiveness of the AFAP he would have been fired on the spot. He was still an FO when the 1989 dispute erupted. My understanding was that he went to a ME operator but failed to get a command there too.

(d) I suspect that the captain involved was a little put out on the basis that others had done other things not terribly dissimilar without penalty

Sorry JT – rubbish. He would think this, but while there was the odd misdemeanor on “Track Trips”, there was nothing approaching just how dangerous and stupid this one was. He also got a controller fired over this episode as the controller (being a drinking buddy of “the ace”) hadn’t reported the episode.

[Stationair8]

What happened to the Ansett F-27 skipper that held station over a ditched aircraft in Bass Strait in the early 1980's. It was on a Four Corners story about a delay in rescuing the two pilots?

On the Mildura -Melbourne run did TAA use Murray Valley Airlines Bandeirante or Sunstate(Mildura) Shorts S330 to compete gainst the F-27?

[Dora-9]

RV went onto the B737 shortly afterward, then resigned to go into financial planning a few months later. I'm still in contact; he's well, successful and doesn't miss aviation at all!.

[john_tullamarine]

but it differs considerably from JT’s version!

Guess we're all getting a tad older and it was a long time ago .. certainly, I don't warrant that my recollection on the matter would stand up to rigorous scrutiny in minute detail.

However a couple of your comments don't sit well with my enfeebled memory ... and much of the minutiae is not worth dredging up.


(a) He was still an FO when the 1989 dispute erupted.

I was on a different Type at the time so the memory might not be in order. However, I recall his going off on his command line check (having come in on that aircraft paxing ?) and don't recall his not having been successful - that, certainly, would have been a good time prior to the dispute.

(b) but while there was the odd misdemeanor on “Track Trips”, there was nothing approaching just how dangerous and stupid this one was.

Appears that you were much closer to the history than I was at the time. Certainly, I can recall some rather silly antics on the Mouse when I was too young and inexperienced to put my views as forcefully as I would do later on with a few more hours under the belt.

Not trying to minimise the inappropriateness of the event - it was quite silly in the overall scheme of things. The chap concerned, I have no doubt, would agree with that given the wisdom of years and the immediate consequences at the time.

We all have skeletons hidden in back of the closet and we all, hopefully, learn by our own mistakes and those of others as we pass along the career road ..

[Dora-9]

JT, you're so right about relying on memory! More straining of brain cells later:


(a) He was still an FO when the 1989 dispute erupted.

In retrospect simple mathematics would suggest that I might be wrong. The incident occurred in 1983 (?), so that the 5 years’ ban would have expired prior to the dispute. I have no recollection of him gaining a command again or not.

As for the remainder, I've PM'd you...

[Dora-9]

MEMORIES!

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a144/Blithering/cid_0BF78AA0-5D9F-4F81-B6C2-456F9ECC76D8BigPond.jpg

[tinpis]

That used to be called Ayers Rock
Bobawk renamed it.

[skylane]

Remember the battery carts for the F27, they must have quite a capacity, as they provided power for night lighting etc as well as starting engines. Came across one at King Is some years after Ansett had stopped running in there, and it was still servicable. Can't remember whether the F50 had a APU or it too used battery carts.

[Dora-9]

Remember the battery carts for the F27, they must have quite a capacity, as they provided power for night lighting etc as well as starting engines.

No it didn’t – the battery cart was purely for lighting, engine starts were on internal ship’s batteries (with all the fun that that implied).

Decent GPU’s (Murex), which would support an engine start, were only available at major ports, e.g. Melbourne

[airsupport]

engine starts were on internal ship’s batteries (with all the fun that that implied).

Memories. :ok:

The old metering of the HP Cock. ;)

[emeritus]

" Metering the HP Cock".....I never seemed to be able to find the bit in the Manual about that!!

Engineering probably would have had a fit if they saw it.:=:=

Emeritus

[outback aviator]

The term "thermally shocking the turbine" springs to mind!!

[airsupport]

" Metering the HP Cock".....I never seemed to be able to find the bit in the Manual about that!!

Engineering probably would have had a fit if they saw it.

I wish I had a dollar for every time I have done that, I would be VERY rich. :E

On a few starts off low batteries have even done more than that, used to crank the engine on blowout/motoring (whatever it was called), then when up to as high an RPM as it would go turn on the ignition, and then still have to meter the HP cock. :rolleyes:

Anyone can start a Dart off ground power. ;)

[airsupport]

The term "thermally shocking the turbine" springs to mind!!

It doesn't hurt anything, you just need to know what you are doing and be very careful. :E

[tinpis]

As tedious as the Fokker Fo's job may have been it was in the knowledge that one day there would be the RESERVE BLOCK. Then on with the real career path in real estate, financial services,wine shops, hobby farms and even prawn trawlers.:hmm:

[emeritus]

Spot on Tinnie...you had to be pretty senior in CNS to get a reserve block!!

Emeritus

[emeritus]

Hasten to add..I did my share of metering around the traps. No option in retrospect.

As an FO did 4 yrs on Viscounts and recall one night at Essendon parked on one of the bays in the inner area of the tarmac, had a very hot start.
The sheet of flame was about 10 ft long according to the hostie.

Certainly got the attention of everyone in the terminal !

Emeritus

[airsupport]

Hasten to add..I did my share of metering around the traps. No option in retrospect.

Correct, IF you do not have a decent GPU, it is the only option sometimes. :ok:

[tinpis]

Murex. Useful gadget as I remember when working in the UK, to locate aircraft on the tarmac. Grope carefully through the fog towards the noise.:hmm:

[By George]

Our low flying AN Capt of Alice fame was an ex 'croppie' and left an Ag-Cat wedged firmly up a large tower in Toowomba once. Sticking out like Robbin Hoods arrow it was. (TV Tower?). There was a memorable picture in an early Digest. I cannot remember how they got him down it was a long time ago. I was also his FO on numerous trips including his initial check to the line. He was a good stick and rudder pilot and I enjoyed his company. He just had a moment of madness, shame really because it destroyed his career. I cannot recall him getting his command back.

[Dog One]

Did the F50 have a APU?

[tinpis]

an ex 'croppie' and left an Ag-Cat wedged firmly up a large tower in Toowomba once. Sticking out like Robbin Hoods arrow it was.

Funny, I somehow always attributed that to "Marbles" M. (RIP)..or was it Loopy? ....:hmm: An old PNG hand would know..

[By George]

You know what Tinny I think you are right , since posting that, I thought, "was that Jimbo" and I think, yes, that incident was JM and again a lovely bloke who I had many beers with and sadly no longer with us. I have just got back from a ten day trip and the mind is suffering from dementia. Still, I stand by my assesment of "Digger", I lilked him, he could fly, just lost it once. (I lost it once walking down the Isle, we are all human).

[tinpis]

By George me mind still working! And...I believe it was the local radio antenna? No Life With Dexter for the locals that day...:hmm:

(And a nagging doubt it was an Ag Cat? Tiger more likely?)

On the RESERVE BLOCK. One bloke gets CALLED OUT, heaven forbid. Couldn't find his way to the new Ansett terminal BNE. :rolleyes:

[skylane]

Was the F27 that Connair operated ex Ansett?

[By George]

When Connair became 'Northern Airlines' VH-MMO was painted up in a green and yellow scheme and flew track trips and out to the rock. The Aircraft was ex-Ansett but obviously, another ex-MMA machine. There use to be a lovely English girl out at the rock who would 'wave the bats' and we would give the poor girl a terrible time holding up nude pictures against the windshield etc. She was a great sport but you'd go straight to jail these days.

[tinpis]

Especially if the pictures were of us nowdays http://www.katzy.dsl.pipex.com/Smileys/moon2.gif

[SIUYA]

By George...

we would give the poor girl a terrible time holding up nude pictures against the windshield etc.

Just as well you didn't try to brown-eye, her as teepee seems to be suggesting! :eek:

Sounds like you're missing some of the better bits of the Connair/Ansett days mate! :}

[CharlieLimaX-Ray]

What airstrip did Connellens use at Ayers Rock for the F-27, the original strip next to the rock or the new one?

Wasn't Connellan Airways Christine Davey the first female to hold a command on an aircraft above 5700kgs in Australia, when she gained a command on the DH114, DC-3 and then the F-27?

[By George]

We used the new one on the F27 and yes Christine was the first female Airline Captain in Aus as far as I know. She gained little recognition for this and indeed didn't seek it, being very low key. After the company failed she went to ADL and learnt to fly helicopters.

[tinpis]

Where did Debbie end up?

[Nil defects]

A320 capt for Jetstar Melbourne I think

[Dora-9]

A photo from Emeritus - proof that the F.27 could fly on one engine with the gear down (Mangalore, c.1974).

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a144/Blithering/F27-Training-Flt-001-001.jpg

[skylane]

Good photo, not much rudder input by the looks of it. When did the F50's go across to the West. Did they fly for Ansett WA, or did Skywest pick them up after the strike.

I remember that Ansett started operating them between MEL - LST and overnighting LST late '89. Also heard the story that two were offered to Airlines of Tasmania, who were in the process of buying a 36 seat Irish Concorde to operate LST - EN twice a day. Anset were keen to get out of the F50's and offered some strong inducements. AOT management rejected the AN advances and continued with the Short's project, which in turn was a dismal failure through poor management and strong competition from AN.

[prospector]

" proof that the F.27 could fly on one engine with the gear down (Mangalore, c.1974)."

An indication of altitude, and phase of flight should be included with that statement. Could only be fifty feet up, downhill, and about to touch down from all the information that can be gleaned from that photo. As already stated, not much rudder offset, would indicate not much power on the port engine.
No flap, but then again it may be an assymetric, flapless landing, just for fun, before the days of simulators.

[Dora-9]

Actually, I included that comment to see what response I got - I don't know what was going on. Emeritus supplied the location/date, but is currently out of contact so I can't ask him.

Asymmetric flapless - I don't think so.