Passengers who want to disembark after boarding

[Rick Studder]

Happened to us a few days ago, passenger sat down, then changed his mind and got up. Gate not closed, still boarding, but luggage had to be retreived from the hold, over an hour delay. But what can you do but let them off if they claim to be ill or are having a panic attack? I wonder how common this is, have you experienced it? What are your procedures with regards to security?

[Capt Claret]

Twice as PIC, and once when paxing.

The paxing one was worst as the airline cabin crew tried to calm the pax who was nervous on boarding. By the time we'd taxied across the active to taxi to the threshold, she'd changed her mind, and a long conversation ensued before we returned to the gate to allow her off, then find the baggage, then push back again. In all, over an hours delay.

[BOAC]

I believe (from an old thread on here) that keeping a pax on against their wish is bordering on 'false imprisonment'. Interesting challenge! Yes, the baggage has to come off.

[Capetonian]

I had just boarded a flight and was called on my cellphone (doors were still open by the way!) by my client to say the meeting was cancelled and there was no need for me to travel anymore. This was not exactly a short hop, it was a FRA - BOG ..... Anyway I told an FA and she called the CSD over and said that the circumstances did not justify letting me off the 'plane even at that stage. I got the feeling that if I'd acted hysterical or been really pushy they might have yielded, but that would obviously not have been appropriate or honest.

Admittedly I also had an ulterior motive in wanting to go to Colombia, one not connected with my work (nothing to do with white powder), so I was quite pleased at the thought of being able to have a paid trip there, and a long weekend, with no work ...... good old days those were!!!

[Neptunus Rex]

I believe that the legal phrase is "detained against their will."
A mate of mine was travelling through an Asian capital port with his wife and baby child. There was a substantial delay on the ground, with no aircon so, as they were still at the gate, he asked to go into the terminal. His request was refused. He then told the Chief Purser to inform the Captain that if he and his family were not allowed to leave the aircraft, he would call the British Embassy and tell them that he was being detained against his will. That did the trick, they were then allowed to go to the terminal and called to return just prior to closing doors for departure.

[NEWYEAR]

On one hand, you must disembark the passenger IF the cabin crew can not be able to keep calm of the passenger.

On the other hand, you have to carry out a Security Check again, which means disembark EVERYBODY.

B.R

[hueyracer]

Not true.

You only have to do a security check again if the person getting off-board gets into contact with any person that have not undergone security check before-and this is very uncommon in the boarding area..

[NEWYEAR]

:) Hi,

Well, BUT nobody Knows it. I mean that the truth about this passenger... is very difficult to know it.

So, bags, a toilet etc have could be touched or used...by that passeger who nobody meets.

I would carry out a Security Cheak again.
B.R

[MCDU2]

So you would disembark an entire 747 cos a pax wanted to get off and do a full security check? Gee you will be popular with your bosses. What does your OPS manual say you should do and/or does your regulator have any specific security requirements.

Our SOPs involve a check around the surrounding area to make sure nothing was left behind. Check the overhead bins and get the passengers sitting adjacent to vouch for the remaining bags etc etc. Simples.

Now obviously if the punter looked dodgy and their reason for getting off didn't stack up then its a different matter altogether.

[Rick Studder]

MCDU2: Reg. cabin security check, that's what we do too, check of toilets as well.

I have experienced this a few times now. Some cases were resolved by negotiating with or calming anxious passengers. But if they absolutely wanted off, they got off.

Would it ever be permissable to physically restrain a pax from leaving when still at the gate, doors open? Only case I can think of would be the unlikely situation where the passenger would pose a bigger threat outside of the aircraft.

[Seat1APlease]

Think about it, pax puts luggage in hat rack then gets off aircraft. How do you know he has taken everything with him?

Full security check unless you are 100% certain.

[Paul H]

As an ex-aircraft dispatcher we used to try and avoid this at all costs. During check-in the passenger service agents would attempt to ask all passengers if they were likely to become nervous pre-flight. Those that were, were put on a list and their bags were kept seperate and loaded last, so if they changed their minds, retrieving the bags was a quick task.
Of course it wasnt flaw proof, non English speaking passengers and those who just had last minute panic attacks threw a few spanners in the works.

I managed to win over a few people, by explaining that the aircraft they were boarding had already made at least one flight the same day previous to their specific flight, and was due back in x hours for another flight that was to be dispatched later in the day before I finished my shift. I told them that this was a repetitive cycle that took place day after day, and they always came back in one peice. It worked quite well.:ok:

[NEWYEAR]

:)Hi,

I would disembark an entire B747 or A380.

Nobody can say for sure that the area has been checked again and everything is OK. None Crew Member.

And, in flight: If I had a passenger shouting the following: "WE ARE GOING TO DIE" then, I would land in an alternate aerodrome. Unless, my Cabin Crew could say for sure that they talk to that passenger and it was an insanity person, which should be writen in a medical paper obviously.

B.R

[hueyracer]

Check Oxford Aviation Book 1: Airlaw (based upon international airlaw).

Chapter 19
19.1.3 Facilitation

Unbenannt.jpg - imageload.net: image hosting, free photo sharing & image upload (http://www.imageload.net/view/30889-unbenannt/)

[stackedup]

Leaving Palma one day, bloke decides he has left his wallet in the bar and pops back to retrieve it, no one spots him depart ! Coffee jocky does head count and having counted a "baby" gives OK to crew and of we go! Five minutes later we taxy back to collect him which now includes a refuel ! No more trips on difficult jet for mehttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/censored.gif

[wiggy]

Think about it, pax puts luggage in hat rack then gets off aircraft.

It's perhaps worth remembering that since said luggage is "carry on" it should have been screened by security.

[411A]

Pax wants off.
My, and the airlines policy?
The pax is allowed off, forthwith, no questions asked.
Hold baggage off as well.
Possible delay?
Part of the job.
NO reboarding is allowed, either.

Simples.:rolleyes:
NB.
Who decides on this airline policy?
I do, as DirOps.

[Rick Studder]

411A: I agree it should be that easy. Alas, some operators have procedures which require cabin security check and id of hand luggage. Usually means all passengers disembarking, then reboarding.

[SloppyJoe]

Why take the bags off, if they want to get off let them, then leave. I know against the rules but maybe the rules should be changed. Recent history shows that todays would be aircraft bombers don't mind going up with the rest of the pax. Cargo travels with no one accompanying it, that goes through less security than a pax bag.

If someone manages to get something through security I am sure they can hide it on the plane. There are so many flaws and knee jerk reactions with the whole security situation, one of the aircraft I fly had a large amount of cocaine found in a life jacket, wonder how long that traveled round the world for, was only found when the jacket needed servicing.

If it has made it through security so what if it stays onboard, carry on or hold baggage.

[Denti]

We're not even required to do cabin security checks between sectors (except in spain and returning from outside the EU), why would we need to make one simply because a pax disembarks? And recently we are allowed to carry his baggage if it cannot be found in time as well, it simply has to be reassigned as rush baggage on the documents, after all it's been screened and that is supposedly fool proof.

[Piltdown Man]

I have had several people expressing a wish to to get off but have been fortunate in so much that only three or four have actually got off. It's always wiser not to have people who don't want to fly left behind on the ground than have them causing havoc in the air. So you have to just accept the delay and also assure yourself that nothing has been left behind by the leaving pax. It is also fair to point out to them that it may take some while for the their bags to be found, that they'll have to forgo the fare they have paid and may also be charged for the additional costs incurred by the airline. But left them go if persuasion doesn't work. However, if you perform an unscheduled en-route diversion and people wish to get off, again let them but you don't have to give them their bags. As nobody knew there was going to be a diversion the unaccompanied bags represent such a negligible risk that you can depart with them. It's then the passenger's problem to get the bags from the destination.

PM

[Rubber Dog]

Here's some info I found during various searches on this subject. I also remember from a law lecture given during command upgrade that if a passenger changes their mind and no special arrangements are required, ie doors open and on the airbridge/jetty and in the absence of an emergency then you cannot really stop them. The company/airline may however sue for any delays etc. The small print on a ticket may further provide some information on this subject. The ticket being a legal contract. Enough of me here's the article.

Are Air Passengers Entitled to Disembark an Aircraft While Grounded?

Background
After the August 2008 Spanair crash in Madrid, the debate resumed as to whether passengers whose aircraft is stranded on the tarmac have the right to return to the gate once the doors have closed and the aircraft has pushed back. On a separate occasion, passengers recently refused to reboard after they left the aircraft following maintenance work. Pilots and other airline representatives sometimes even face criminal prosecution initiated by passengers for alleged deprivation of liberty pursuant to Section 239 of the Criminal Code. It appears that passengers in such situations feel that they have been locked up against their will. __In this context the question arises as to whether the captain of an aircraft has legitimate powers to deny deboarding and, if so, how the limits of such powers can be determined.

__Legal Situation __
Section 12 of the Aviation Security Act outlines the air carrier's duties and competences. It provides that the air carrier is entitled to maintain law and order onboard its aircraft. The captain is entrusted with public powers which make him or her responsible for safeguarding the passengers’ safety and security. The captain's position is sometimes compared in jurisprudence to that of a police officer exercising sovereign powers. This corresponds with Section 3 of the Air Traffic Order, which empowers the captain to take all measures deemed appropriate to provide for a safe trip. __However, the captain must observe the limits of his or her discretion. He or she may take only those measures that are required and commensurate to avert a dangerous situation. Thus, the pilot must act proportionately when considering the restriction of commensurability. __In many cases the pilot would be ill advised to satisfy a passenger’s wish to leave the aircraft when the aircraft is stranded on the runway. First, the pilot must follow the instructions of air traffic control. Therefore, he or she will seldom be in a position simply to taxi back to the gate. Second, if the passenger is travelling with hold baggage, this luggage must be unloaded. Pursuant to Annex 5.3 of EU Regulation 300/2008, "unaccompanied hold baggage shall not be transported". __Air traffic is international by nature and crossing borders is at the heart of the business. Thus, national regulations and jurisdiction over the aircraft, and the captain’s publicly entrusted powers, would come to a sudden end if there were no conventions under international public law providing for appropriate competences. __Where an unruly passenger is demanding to exit the aircraft, Article 6 of the Tokyo Convention states that:

"The aircraft commander may, when he has reasonable grounds to believe that a person has committed, or is about to commit, on board the aircraft, an offence or act contemplated in Article 1, paragraph 1, impose upon such person reasonable measures including restraint which are necessary:
(a) to protect the safety of the aircraft, or of persons or property therein; or _(b) to maintain good order and discipline on board; or _(c) to enable him to deliver such person to competent authorities or to disembark him in accordance with the provisions of this chapter."
In addition, many airlines lay down such powers in their conditions of carriage and thus provide for a contractual basis to exercise these rights. The airline and the passenger are bound by a contract of carriage under civil law.

__Comment __
An air passenger has no legal grounds or entitlement to request to leave the aircraft once the doors have closed after boarding is completed. The reasoning under German law and additional international agreements is that pilots are best suited to judge the situation at hand and will not put themselves, their crew, passengers and other third parties at risk voluntarily or with levity. __On the contrary, if a passenger decides to force his or her way off the aircraft, he or she may face damages as well as criminal prosecution. __In addition, the practical problems and safety ramifications should not be underestimated. It is simply impossible, from a safety and security perspective, to allow passengers to leave the aircraft on movable staircases on the tarmac, unload their luggage and walk back to the gate across the runway.

[onetrack]

Here's an interesting but definitely uncommon story, re pax disembarkation. Not exactly disembarkation per se... but I recall a true story from many years ago, where a woman became somewhat panicky, and refused to board, once on the tarmac (this was many years ago, as I said!).
Pressed on the reasons for refusing to board, she just stated she had "bad feelings" about boarding. The crew/management eventually forced her to board against her will, but she got on. The flight crashed, and all on board perished... :eek:
Seems like her bad premonitions were spot on. However, no-one believes in that kind of thing... do they??... :suspect:

[wiggy]

Seems like her bad premonitions were spot on. However, no-one believes in that kind of thing... do they??...



Problem with these stories is how often to you hear about the passengers who have these so called premonitions...and their flight gets to destination OK?