AOPA Aerobatics Course

[Right Stuff]

Does anyone know where I can take the approved AOPA 10 hour course in this country? I've heard Alan Cassidy mentioned?!

[loglickychops]

I found a list on the aopa site (http://www.aopa.co.uk/), but it doesn't seem very extensive - I had supposed there would be more options available. Also, I'd rather learn in a more powerful a/c (a Yak for instance). Does anyone know anyone who can help?

[Right Stuff]

LLC - If you want a Yak, try anglia flight, www.anglia-flight.com (http://www.anglia-flight.com) or call on 01603 412 888. Otherwise Dawn Patrol do the course in an Extra 300L. Personally, I want to do it in something underpowered and unforgiving - the extra bears little relation to anything a poor PPL like me will ever get my hands on! I also called Pilot Flight Training at Oxford who do it on a slingsby. Thanks for the AOPA link though, will be busy calling them all tomorrow!!!

[FNG]

Alan Cassidy offers aeros training in a Pitts at White Waltham and is indeed highly regarded. A mate of mine is training with him at present and is very impressed. There's also aeros training available at Old Sarum and, I believe, Compton Abbas. For both Rightstuff and Loglickychops, might I suggest a Cap 10? Not as ballistic as a Pitts or Extra, much more grunty than a Citabria, a bit more flingable than a Slingsby, less mega-donked than a Yak but less thirsty, and tail wheeled to boot. Email me at pprune mail if interested.

[Tricky Woo]

Flying Club Conington (Just to the south of Peterborough) do the course on a Cessna 152 Aerobat. If money is a factor, then you'll find the 8 hours or so a lot cheaper, plus the club has plenty of people who compete.

The aircraft itself (G-BFKF from memory) often shows up at competitions. If you ask Gavin nicely, he often lets people take the aircraft away for a weekend's competition.

www.flying-club-conington.co.uk (http://www.flying-club-conington.co.uk)

Call 01487-834161 and ask for Gavin Forrest, the CFI.

TW

[Vedeneyev]

If you want to do aeros in a Yak, go to Gennady Elfimov at Skytrace http://www.skytrace.co.uk (Halfpenny Green or what should now be called Wolverhampton Business Airport). You could also try Jez Hopkinson at Compton Abbas http://www.aerobatics.co.uk although I'm not sure he's still doing the AOPA course. Heard Dawnpatrol are also pretty good in the Extra 300L.

[stiknruda]

Anglia Flight can also offer aeros training in an S2A Pitts.

This aircraft has a two place bubble canopy so the chap in the front seat (which is normally open) can be just as comfortable as the chap in the rear.

Nice aeroplane, have flown it many times.

Dale at Anglia is IMHO a fine instructor.

Stik

[flickoff]

I think there is a list of aerobtaic instructors on the British Aerobatic Association web site (WWW.aerobtaics.org.uk) sorry don't know how to do the hyperlinkythingy.

Who ever you go to, speak to other people first as there are aerobatic instructors and there are aerobatic instructors. My local offer Advanced Aerobatic instruction in their ads but imho the instructor would struggle at beginners!

Alan Cassidy is top man tho and member of the UK Unlimited AErobatic team. Get someone who can do it not just read a book about it.

[Right Stuff]

Thanks for all the help guys - really appreciated. I intended to do the course with Jez, but he is no longer doing it - he recommended Alan Cassidy. I'll definitely give him a call. While this topic is alive - what is the consensus on training in, say, a pitts and then hopping in a 152 to do aeros? Is it at all realistic to work backwards like this?

[flickoff]

I don't know about realistic, but it seems a bit pointless. When you have that stupid Pitts Grin the we all had when we get in th eearly Pitts fliying sorties, you will not want to go to a 152. After many hours in a Pitts I did some aeros in a "normal" aerobatic type... scared the s*** out of me as I was used to power on demand. Much harder to do well. Those people that can do good aeros in a 152 show imense skill, but why make it hard. A Pitts is like an arial motor bike, point it were you want to go and it goes. Bang for your buck there is no better thing.

Ps I might be a bit biased as I own one.

[foxmoth]

You can also try the Robin at Vectair, Goodwood, 160 horse so a reasonable amount of power and a nice handling aircraft, not in the Pitts league but then not TOO expensive.
If you do want anything like decent aeros, one thing I WOULD recommend is give the C150 a MISS.

[Tricky Woo]

Right Stuff,

I can only speak from the 152 point of view seeing as I've never even sat in anything fancy like a Pitts. One day, huh?

When I decided to do the AOPA Cert, I realised that, although I could just about afford to do the course in something nice like a Pitts, it would be unlikely that I could then continue to pay for the many of subsequent hours required to practice a competition sequence. After a brief cloth-cutting session, it was the 152 for me.

While a 152 is obviously at a HUGE disadvantage to a Pitts or whatever, it doesn't mean that you can't get a lot of fulfilment out of one. Believe me, it's a blast. It's also a challenge seeing as there's an inconvenient absence of an inverted fuel system, (the engine goes a bit quiet when upside down), so speed control is crucial.

While many pilots are dubious about using a 152 as an competition mount, they soon change their minds when they see someone like Markus Fox walk off with a 1st place at UK Standard level competition: Demon pilot. I guess the trick is to know the 152 well enough to be able to fly good aeros in spite of its deficiencies. Which I can't. Bugger.

TW

[stiknruda]

I agree entirely with Flickoff (which in itself must be a first!!)

Doing aeros in a Tiger or a Stampe is infinitely more difficult than in a Pitts. Doing aeros in a C152A is even more difficult. I have met Marcus and seen him fly, which I can attest that that he does very nicely!

I have flown the Steen Skybolt, Chippie, CAP10B, Harvard, various YAKs, Citabrias,etc and all Pitts flavours (save the S2C). I have not flown any of the esoteric plastic fantastic Extras or CAPs.

Nothing so far compares to the Pitts.

I consider myself an aerobatic "plodder" hardly a Sky-God, though I have friends who are! The Pitts (and like Flick, I am biased for the same reason) really does it for me. The single seater S1S/T far outperforms the S2A and although the fixed pitch S1S is not as fast as an S2B (260hp) is as equally capable aerobatically.

The good thing is - is that they fly straight and level, too. So that x-country that will let you see your mates is no problem, either.

Yesterday - I delivered an S2A and returned in an Aerobat. I guess I slow-rolled the Pitts a dozen times just for the fun of it on my 10 min transit. On the return leg in the Aerobat, S&L the whole way.

Today - I returned the Aerobat. I tried one loopy/rolly thing that didn't remotely resemble a conventional barrel roll and put me off anything but S&L!!

I love my Pitts Special!

Every family should have one!!

Stik


edited for accuracy!


[This message has been edited by stiknruda (edited 07 June 2001).]

[foxmoth]

Sorry Tricky but I think if you try the aerobatic Robins or the Pup150 you will find a much better aircraft for aeros at about thesame price, all I can say about those who do well in comps in a c150 is WHY, surely they would do much better in one of the others.

[FNG]

I can't offer much comparative experience (have tried Bulldog, Pup, Chippie, Slingsby, Cap). I'm waiting for a friend to get a Pitts share so that I can swap Pitts/Cap rides with him (hurry up JS: you know who you are). I agree, however, that if you're looking for cheaper aeros, a Pup 150 is worth a look. I don't know from Cessnas, (last time I was in a a C150/152 was as a spotty teenage oik doing a dogsbody job at a local flying school in the 70s, and there was no upside down stuff involved in the infrequent freebie flights provided by the owner - his idea of excitement was to say "clear takeoff G xx" to Birmingham Tower, open the throttle, close his eyes, take his hands off and say "you do the bugger") but the Pup's extra bit of power can't go amiss. Also, isn't there a risk of pulling to one side on the yoke when under high G, which isn't a problem with a stick? Pardon me if this is aviation myth number 997.

NB this is not intended as a dig at Cessnas or those who fly them, still less those who win competitions in them. Hats off to those who can perform precise aeros in low powered aircraft. It's doubtless only my crippling lack of ability which makes me want lots of reassuring noisiness going on upfront whilst I hamfistedly bodge my way through wonky loops and staggering rolls.


[This message has been edited by FNG (edited 08 June 2001).]

[skydriller]

Hi Everyone, Great topic, 'Cause I too am interested in learning some aerobatics. Experience wise, Ive had my PPL under a year and have 75 odd hours total time.

With regard to what others have said here, Ive never flown a tailwheel aircraft before, so is it best to learn on something like a Robin or Slingsby type, or go straight to the likes of a CAP-10 or Pitts? Me thinks a CAP-10/Pitts would be alot more expensive.

Also, If you guys/gals out there think something with big grunt is best, would you suggest a tailwheel conversion course first, or just bite the bullit and go straight into it?

Thanks to everyone for all the great info so far.

[foxmoth]

The Robin or Slingsby are good aircraft to start on and will keep the cost down, as they are harder to fly basic aeros you tend to develop good technique (though IMHO the C150 takes this principle TOO far). If you go for CAP10/Pitts you will probably combine the conversion with starting the aeros - at least that is how I would do it (ie. 1 hr lesson with 15-20 mins off aeros and the rest on the other conversion work). You will probably find that 20-30 mins is more than enough aeros for one session, especially at the beginning

[FNG]

Skydriller, although I'm now a sad tailwheel geek, I suppose that the answer is a matter of personal choice/what's available in your area/how much you want to spend. I assume that most competition aeros machines have tailwheels because of the lower weight/drag in flight, but of course there's still plenty of aerobatic jollies to be had in nosewheel types. I was recommended to do a tailwheel conversion on a (non aerobatic) Cub before moving on to a Cap, the instructor's reasoning being that the Cub is a harder taildragger to land and so teaches better generic tailwheel skills. In another thread recently it was suggested that a Citabria is great fun, although there don't seem to be that many of them around. Meanwhile, my friend learning in the Pitts has opted to use it to collect his tailwheel tick, his wobbly prop tick, and his aeros course all on one aircraft. If it is really true that Ms Grace at Duxford did her PPL on her Spitfire (I've heard this said but have no idea if it's true) I suppose that covered all three as well!

[Southern Cross]

If you are interested in Yak flying, I can only repeat earlier endorsements of Gennady Elfimov at Skytrace, Wolverhampton Business Airport. If you undertake his entire Safety Course, you will come away thoroughly familiar with Yak 52 operations and probably be pretty competent at Standard Level aeros. Which is a bit of a bonus if, like I was, you have not flow a stick and rudder high power aeroplane before....Here's the link again: http://www.skytrace.co.uk/

Have fun.

[kabz]

I'm doing my PPL in Citabria and it's just a joy to fly compared with a 172. Really responsive. Just the t/o is a bit harder, but lovely on spins and instructors are not so bothered about that as not full of expensive gyros like a typical 172.

I am really looking forward to getting some aeros in other than spins as it sounds like it is my instructor's favourite thing to teach.

Deffo recommend Citabrias. Shouldn't be sig. more expensive than typical 172, unlike Yak/Pitts etc.

[Tiger_ Moth]

C152 Aerobat!!!!! ARRRRRGHHHHHHHH!!!!!
NO! you cant do aerobatics in that! its just not right!!! It doesnt even have a stick! I heard the roll rate was pretty poor too. Aerobatics without a stick is just wrong!
Also you arent sitting in the centre which is another bad point. Its just not a proper plane for aerobatics!!!! Even if you cant afford a pitts or extra it doesnt mean you have to resort to a cessna!
A chipmunk would be good, and not too expensive, if you can find one. A yak seems good too, but is a bit more costly.
You could even do it in a Moth at White Waltham or Cambridge or maybe somewhere else although its performance isnt that great. Anything but a cessna! It just wouldnt give you the right expierience!

[skydriller]

Went to my Aero-club this morning, and previously unknown to me, there is an Flying Group/School with CAP-10s visiting us at my Club for three weeks at the end of July!! I'll try to wait until then, it will give me a little time to save some pennies. In addition, two places about 45mins/hour away have a CAP-10 too.

So, it looks like my first Aeros will be in a CAP-10!!

While this thread is alive, If anyone Experienced with CAP-10s would like to add any further tips I might find usefull I'd appreciate it immensely.

Thanks to all in advance, SD.

[Right Stuff]

Everyone stay cool! - I just chose the cessna as a point of reference. I have done aeros in one and am still alive to tell the tale! My point was simply that I would like to learn the hard way. I feel that learning on a pitts is likely to conceal early mistakes etc. Am going to try simon coombes at oxford on the slingsby

[stiknruda]

Cap 10B

I have done a few hours with one in France with a superb instructor.

Initially I found myself coming down the backside of the loop and constantly having to correct hdg. Then ...... it dawned, the stick was very slightly offset to the centreline of the seat, so pulling back to your navel (a la Pitts) also applied a tadge of aileron.

Once I had reset my datum, I loved it!

Actually as a serious 2 seat aeroplane that will go places (130kt cruise IIRC)and one that 2 up you can whang about the sky in, it'd be hard to beat.

Stik

n

ruda

n

sickbag

n

go and do it again!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Rusty Cessna]

Hiya folks,

Sorry to stray off the point but I am a little curious as to how good/bad aircraft like Pitts are for touring.

I know that if you wanted a tourer you wouldn't go buy a pitts but are they exceptionally bad fuel wise, if so does the increased airspeed make up for this, what are they like on grass strips and do they operate well with 2 p.o.b and a bit of luggage etc?

Thanks, SNR, me thinks you may be able to answer this one.

Rusty

[stiknruda]

Rusty,

If you were serious about touring, then you wouldn't buy a Pitts!

But if you had a Pitts and wanted to tour - then sure it is totally feasible.

The downside with many aerobatic aircraft (Pitts, YAK, etc) is that they don't hold a lot of fuel. So - in either a single or 2 seat Pitts, two hrs between fuel stops is about the maximum.

They are not particularly quick at cruise settings (130-150mph).

They love grass strips (mine lives on 600yds and is normally down and stopped in less than half of that).

The cockpit on the S1 is more comfy than on the S2 - it is a bit larger, I always feel TOO close to the instrument panel in either the S2A or B, but I do wear a back 'chute.

They are great fun. Friends of mine annually take theirs from Jo'burg to Nairobi - which is a long, long way!

See them at www.aerobat.co.za (http://www.aerobat.co.za)


Have fun,


Stik

[mickypitch]

Good topic on aeros,
I have spent many hours aerbating a C150 texas taildragger and whilst it loops and stallturns easy I just could never get a good roll out of it. Practice as much as I liked and used rudder to help get started and to finish the roll off it was hopeless. (or I was!) I found reverse half cubans loads of fun as well and could link a loop with a roll and then a reverse half cuban before losing too much height. Great fun! I did have the feeling that it was built strong +6 and -3 so that was a confidence booster. Actually broke a seat frame once that was a tad worrying.
Did a few flights in G-Wren a pitts S2A at sywell and that rolled beautifully. Always wanted a Pitts S1C but never could find one at the right price in the right condition.
I have now got a Bolkow 208c Junior capable of similar aeros to the C150. Again it loops and stall turns lovely but is slightly heavy on the ailerons but rolls nicer.
Does not give the feeling as being as strong as the C150 +4.4 and - 2.2 but outperforms one in every way.
Does not seem to be the same interest in the South East in aeros as in other parts of the country. My club has vey few people interested in this great past time. Makes a 40 min flight so much more fun than just stooging about and you feel like you have learn't something after every flight!

[FNG]

I certainly agree with mickypitch that 40 mins (or even 20 mins) with some aeros certainly beats the average stooge-about or circuit bash, and helps to makes each flight a learning experience.

Responding to some of the queries above about the Cap 10, one of the reasons that I've bought into a Cap group is that the aircraft is a very good combination trainer/tourer/aerobatter. The French air force was happy with it as the ab initio trainer for future Mirage jockeys. Its general handling is delightful. Lovely light controls, think about turning and it turns. It climbs very nicely and can cruise at a wide range of speeds according to how much fuel you want to burn. Visibility in all directions is superb, and looking out over an elliptical wing can produce a few enjoyable Walter Mitty/Billy Liar moments for obvious reasons.

On the ground the 3 point attitude is flatter than that of many tailwheelers and forward vis is good. The large fin and fuselage keel area aft of the CG can make it a bit of a handful to taxi in a brisk crosswind. You need to be very circumspect and use lots of ruddder and perhaps a bit of differential brake. Its likes to swing left on takeoff so you have to dance the dance on the pedals whilst raising the tail only slightly. As its so slippery and light, making it slow down and descend requires some thought. You have to get it really well sorted on base leg. I have found it easier to achieve reasonable 3 point landings in it than I did in a Cub, but it will have a go at you if your threshold speed is not bang on. Not scary, but characterful and pleasantly challenging compared to
a trike.

As a tourer, it's comfortable for two adults with a small bag on the rear shelf (max 50 kg depending on crew and fuel weight). The endurance is not great if you fly front tank only (the rear tank must be empty for arobatics), but it's quite a noisy cockpit so an hour and a half may be all you want, and you can fill up the rear, doubling the range, and fly on into France if you want to.

I'm still learning the aerobatic side so cannot offer expert commentary on how it compares with other aircraft. True it may be that side by side seating is not perfect for mega precision competition stuff, but it seems good for training and for general fun aeros. I must say that I hadn't noticed the offset on the stick as mentioned above. I must have a look next time I'm flying. Perhaps that's a bit like the offset pedals on some 1960s cars which you get used to after a few minutes.

My co-owner and instructor has demonstrated some pretty snappy manoeuvres on our dual sorties. The reserves of power available seem to make it go around and upside down with no great stress or effort.

Drawbacks? Needs a hangar to live in, costs quite a bit more than a Yak or Pitts to buy (but less to run (I think) than a Yak and possibly a Pitts also). Main drawback: makes you want to bunk off and go flying every waking hour of every single day.

[Right Stuff]

I've gone for the Slingsby at Cotswold Aero Club - don't want the hassle of tailwheels just yet! It also compares to the Fuji, which I hope to be aerobatting(?!) at some stage

[Rusty Cessna]

Just Curious,

How much per hour roughly is it to rent from a club either a Pitts or a Yak, and is there anywhere that you can get trained to fly the Yak 50 as I think it looks the dogs boolacks.

Just curious,
Rusty

[skydriller]

Thanks for all the tips FNG, interesting stuff, much appreciated.

Say, Stiknruda, if you dont mind me asking, where in France did you try out the CAP-10? Its just that I happen to be currently based in the Bordeaux region of France at the moment. Im not sure where the group visiting my Aero-club are from though, just that they are from somewhere near Paris.

Cheers, SD

[stiknruda]

Can heartily recommend L'Aeroclube de Caen/Carpiquet for excellent aeros training in a decent CAP10B. My instructor was Patrick Gigot (understand that he coached Diana Britten for quite a while). Lessons were conducted in Franglais.

In fact it was he who pointed out the offset stick as the reason my loops were canted.

The CAP is not the same as a Pitts S1S (Dhoh!!) but it is a pleasure to fly and a lot easier to land. Both have the same IO360 up front pushing out 180hp.


Stik

[Fuji Abound]

Right Stuff

Since the Fuji got a mention I had to add a comment. There are essentially two versions the 180VP and the 160. The 160 maybe a more than a little underpowered but the 180 is not too bad. As a side by side non stick mount, that is pleasant to tour with up to four up, potentially fully IFR, with just two it makes a reasonable attempt also at aerobatics. Obviously not in the same league as an Extras, Pitts or Cap, but sort of sensible on costs, with a few good groups around and occasionally available on the market. Just a thought.

[Right Stuff]

Fuji - I actually sent you an email about a week ago with regard to fuji's and your excellent website. I'm flying MCOX, a 180

[Southern Cross]

Rusty

Since the Yak 50 is a single seater, there isn't anywhere you can get trained for it specifically.

However, as someone who first soloed a 50 earlier this year, here is how I did it. 125 hours on the Yak 52, then 5 hours on a Supercub, then fly the 52 from the rear seat for an hour or so (the position of the rear seat is almost the same as the 50 as is the landing attitude is you land the 52 properly), then jump into the 50. Huge fun - without doubt the best aeroplane I have ever flown.

An even better route would still involve plenty of Yak 52 time (including rear seat time), then tailwheel time on a Chipmunk, before getting into the Yak 50, since the Chippie is apparently similar many respects to the 50 handling wise.

Just do it.

[Rusty Cessna]

Thanks Southern,

I thought that as it is single seat there would be some complications, and thus
a route to solo would be similar to yours.

I realised you would need extensive knowledge of the 52 before getting in the 50, but I didn't think it would be as great as 125 hours on the 52!

Congratulations, its something I am aspiring to do at some point in my flying life, was the price for the Yak 52 around the £200 mark? And was it your local school where you flew the 52 from?

Thanks for the help, maybe a trip to the states later in my life to get that Yak 52 time is needed! hehe, :)

Thanks again and congrats.

[Southern Cross]

Dual training with Gennady Elfimov at Skytrace (Wolverhampton Business Airport) is currently £180 per hour brakes off to brakes on I think. Check his website.

You don't need 125 hours on a 52 - it just happens that I had accumulated that time before I managed to sort out the tailwheel differences training and then get into the 50.

[Rusty Cessna]

Thanks southern,

Is Wolverhampton your local flying school, or did you just use it for the yak purposes?

How many hours would you think is needed on the 52 before the 50, and do you think it would be best to get a tailwheel conversion before or after the 52 flying?

I bet you had an excellent time flying the 50, looks like a real warbird INHO, whats the going rate for the 50?

Thanks for the response, and sorry so many questions...

Rusty

[Southern Cross]

No, I'm based at North Weald. Went to Wolverhampton to learn to fly the Yak 52. Can't recommend it more highly.

Number of hours on the 52? I have to say that it is "how long is a piece of string". For me, the 52 was a big leap forward and I enjoy every flight in it. I really didn't feel ready to move up another gear until I had clocked up quite a few hours. It is your call alone really.

If you have a choice, get tailwheel time early and in the highest amounts as possible, as it is all valuable time.

Yak 50's cost between about £38k to over £50k. See the article in this month's Flyer.

[Rusty Cessna]

Thanks Again Southern,

Have just read the article in Flyer, great reading, when I said the going rate I meant hourly, is it a little extra than the 52 for the 50 per hour?

Thanks again and sorry for all the questions,
Rusty

[Southern Cross]

I think that you will find that there is no "going rate" for hiring a Yak 50. I do not know of any for hire in the UK. The only way you could get to fly one short of buying one outright or as a share, is to do a private deal with an owner. That will require luck, experience on 52's and / or a relevant taildragger, and a good relationship with the owner.

In short, the figure I quoted to buy is a defacto hourly rate (albeit you get to then do as many hours as you like - ie, you will probably have to buy one to fly one!).

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

First off, Ms Grace did not do her PPL on the Spitfire. She already had a PPL and was flying a Stampe - husband Nick Grace was killed in a car crash and Caroline decided to keep the 'Grace Spitfire' flying. She trained with Peter Kynsey, soloed it, and has been flying it ever since. There's a super video available (Perfect Lady) that covers Nick's ground-up rebuild of the Spit, and Caroline's conversion to type. Recommended!

Now Yaks. I'd love to fly a Yak 50. I've got loads of Chippy time and a fair bit of Yak 52 time, but like someone said, where do you get time in a '50? There are none I know of around here (Cheshire / midlands / north west). The 50 was Mark hanna's favorite aeroplane, and there was a guy who'd tried a few so knew what he was talking about.

I love the '52. It has a feeling of solidity, great 'presence', and is more like a warbird than a GA aircraft. It may guzzle fuel, but that Vendeneyev makes such a glorious sound - and so well engineered. A Pitts or Cap 10 just seem so weedy in comparison.

Me? Biased? Never!!

SSD

[Rusty Cessna]

Southern,

Yet again a great help, that was indeed what I was afraid of.

Shaggy,

I have to give it you ya, I agree. I wouldn't say a Pitts is weedy, I wold adore to fly one aswell, but where else are you gonna get kick ass warbid radial fun for £180 an hour?

I mean a Pitts is probably around the £200 mark per hour (stik?) and an Extra, well I wouldn't want to comment. As Southern says, I reckon the only way I will get to fly a Yak 50 is to get a share, after having done the whole safety course at Skytrace, and spent lots of time in the chippie.

So me finks a good ole Chipmunk is on the cards next for a tailwheel conversion. Anyone know where there is a nice one, and what the cost is hourly?

Again thanks to all.
Rusty

[MLS-12D]

C152 Aerobat!!!!! ARRRRRGHHHHHHHH!!!!! NO! you cant do aerobatics in that! its just not right!!! It doesnt even have a stick! I heard the roll rate was pretty poor too. So presumably you've never flown one? :suspect:

[ANDY CUBIN]

Ref Aeros & AOPA.

Don't dick about - waste of time and money and its dangerous! - Get some professional training by people who've been there and done that.

If you havent gleaned enough from the previous posts, try Ultimate High at Kemble who will do the course on Extra 300 or Bulldog.

Plenty of satisfied cutomers - www.ultimatehigh.co.uk

good luck

[Andy_R]

Andy Cubin as a great fan of UH (just ask Mark) why do you then advertise the AOPA course?

Or is it just anything except Bulldogs and Extras that are dangerous? ;)

Just trying to keep the discussion fair and balanced :)

[ANDY CUBIN]

Good point and I see where you are coming from.

I never intended to berate the AOPA course in any way.

When MG and I started to set up Ultimate High and the way we intended to go with it, I was astonished to find that there was no officially recognised training structure or qualification needed to loop or roll down to 30 feet, or any other height for that matter.

Guidance is vague from the Authority, but as far as I can make out, provided you remain clear of any vehicle, vessel or structure, you, me and anyone else can aerobat to within a gnat's cock of the ground perfectly legally and without any formal training.

Clearly this is a crap idea and I presume AOPA have sought to introduce some common sense by offering an aerobatics course - great concept. It is not, however, a mandatory requirement and should you choose to ignore it, it is perfectly within your entitlement as a tax paying citizen to do so.

I have. I have never done the AOPA aerobatics course, although I am a certified AOPA instructor. Lucky me - I was given a sound education in aerobatics in the RAF and with collegues advice and help and a ****load of practice got myself to where I am now.

In reality, a flying training organisation can introduce an aerobatics course, name it "Laurel and Hardy" if you like, take your money and send you away - in which case I am probably talking to a dead man.

Ultimate High use Bulldogs and Extras. You can do the AOPA course in anything that is certified and, by and large, I would agree with that. Yaks, Citabrias, Chipmunks (ah!),Slingsby's and Bulldogs are all superb platforms to learn the trade although personally I would discount the Aerobat - my view only.

The point is: get yourself some proper training by an adept aerobatic pilot instructor in a proper aerobatic aeroplane. There are plenty of facilities around, but obviously I have to blow Ultimate High's trumpet because I genuinely believe it's the best facility in the country and I am the chief pilot of this organisation.

I hope this opens the door for some debate, because safety is improved as a result of discussion - lets haggle, but in the meantime let me leave you with this thought:

I have been flying low level aerobatics at airshows for 12 years. There has not been one single year since then, where I have not either personally witnessed an accident or toasted the life of a brother display pilot who has not made it.

Flying should always be fun and challenging but it is merciless and unforgiving - something that always lies in the back of my mind.

Stay safe everyone

AC

[MLS-12D]

provided you remain clear of any vehicle, vessel or structure, you, me and anyone else can aerobat to within a gnat's cock of the ground perfectly legally and without any formal training. Clearly this is a crap ideaIf someone wants to risk their own life, I have no problem with that, provided only that they don't endanger anyone else. The situation you describe seems to strike a reasonable balance between the conflicting interests of individual liberty and public safety.
Flying should always be fun and challenging but it is merciless and unforgiving - something that always lies in the back of my mind.I agree.

[Andy_R]

get yourself some proper training by an adept aerobatic pilot instructor in a proper aerobatic aeroplane. There are plenty of facilities around, but obviously I have to blow Ultimate High's trumpet because I genuinely believe it's the best facility in the country and I am the chief pilot of this organisation.

I fully intend to and as the Aerobat got damaged today (storm damage) I guess you will be seeing me up there soon :ok:

It does seem the aerobat does get a beating from those who are lucky enough to fly something better (and I don't deny there is far better out there!!).

I can only reiterate your point and agree it would be foolhardy to attempt aero's without some good basic training.

[S-Works]

I did the AOPA course about 900hrs ago and while I enjoyed have not really found a use or the personal apptitude for it since.

I had a great day with UH tail chasing despite feeling ill for about 2 days afterwards! If I was going to fly aeros then I would certainly want to training with them regardless of what the course was called.

Shining egos and all they are very talented pilots with thorough briefings and professional treatment of customers (just need better time keeping!!!) and present superb value.

I like to convince myself that Cubes did not let my non aviating "victim" get "guns" on him and it was down to my talent!!!

My vote everytime if you want 1st class training is the UH boys and girls.

[greeners]

Cloud69 - Sorry to hear about your excellent aeroplane. I was at the hangar party at Goodwood today just after the 60kt squall blew through, trees all over the road. I know that Goodwood Flying School were very grateful to the guys at Bournemouth for calling up and warning them - thanks chaps, all aircraft got tied down just in time.

Bose-x - Thanks for kind comments, you can come again!

MG

[Andy_R]

Like I said to you on the "other place" greeners it will at least give me some flying money to spend with you guys :}