Overtaken for take-off at CDG?

[Rumet]

Was on GF018 from CDG on 13/08 as a pax. Taxiing parallel to rwy, for take-off on 26R, at around 11:30 local time. Shortly before right turn, captain annouced we were number 2 for take-off, and a few seconds later while we were holding short I saw an AF A318 take off. I thought we would be next, but then came an AF B777-300 ER from behind us, took a right turn ahead of us to 26R, and took off. Don't know its flight number but its registration was F-GZNG.

Now obviously ATC gave priority to this flight even though our captain had understood it would be our turn. Does anybody know what kind of operational reason could have caused this?

Thanks in advance.

[SilentHandover]

CTOTs, initial departure routing, readiness for departure, time of push back off of gate the list goes on and on.

[Alt Crz Green]

The AF 777 captain is having a sordid affair with the No. 7 hostie and was in a hurry to get to the hotel. Understandably, under the circumstances, he received priority. Sorry you had wait 20 more seconds to depart. C'est la vie.

[Sir Herbert Gussett]

Ah the joys of CDG. Sit at the holding point and count the no of Frenchies that get to go before you.... :rolleyes:

[levelD]

But you were number 2 , after the departing AF777 :E

Happens in every country ; Get on with it for :mad: sake :ugh:

[grizzled]

Rumet asked a simple (and most reasonable) question as to what operational reasons would cause the situation he described. Then a couple of ppruners with attitude decide to chide him.

For God's sake, if your only reason to post an "answer" is to get some of that chip off your shoulder, get some crayons instead and scribble on your walls...

Rumet: As silent-handover wrote, there are many operational reasons for that situation, and it's actually quite normal ops. The most common reasons have to do with separation immediatley after departure (related to enroute separation or flow management requirements).

The taxi out order can also be a bit different than the flow management approved departure times for different flights, so it can also be the case that the flight you saw depart just before yours had an earlier slot time, but was delayed at the gate. In which case there may well have been conversations between all the above participants on the ground frequency which, if you had been able to hear it, would have clarified the reason.

On behalf of controllers that enjoy being asked operational questions, I apologise for the shots from the ones with manhood issues... ;)

grizz

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Rumet... As has been explained, there are many reasons why it could have happened, and mpst likely none to do with any favouritism to another airline. What you should keep in mind is that it would be impossible for the aircrew to tell the passengers everything that is happening. Within a few aseconds of him telling you all that you were number 2 to go he might have had another instruction from ATC changing the order and it's a busy time for the crew to keep the SLF up to date. It happens many times every day and does not mean that something untoward occurred.

The real time to be concerned is when you're overtaken on landing!

[Sir Herbert Gussett]

grizzled & HEATHROW DIRECTOR

Try flying to France or Spain ..... you'll realise that they aren't as polite dealing as the British! Controllers around France and Spain (I'm sure of it) get discounted travel on their national carrier and so give said carrier priority..... either that or they have a hatred of foreign airlines operating, but you will often see their "standard separation" between two foreign airlines is a case of bunging out as many national airlines as possible between the two. :ugh: :ugh:

[mad_jock]

The fiddling of who goes first takes a bit of getting used to even as a pilot.

If your a small TP your knackard anyway cause they can bang out the mediums and heavys with less time in between.

Then you can get "why the sending those :mad: first" then you see them all heading south, speak to a mate and you find out MAN to the north has issues so are only accepting a reduced number into the southern sector.

So getting shunted by anything up to 4-5 can be just be the ATCO getting max runway usage.

Although some days you can almost hear them singing.

"to the left, to the right, hey diddle diddle one up the middle"

Apart from the female controllers at BHX who always sound grumpy.

[chiglet]

speak to a mate and you find out MAN to the north has issues so are only accepting a reduced number into the southern sector.


I think that is "Scottish", not Manchester, that you are referring to...:ok:
[Retired EGCC Twr and MACC ATSA]

[mad_jock]

:p Haven't had the pleasure of talking to them since the move.

Wouldn't seem right though getting chucked to area coming off a BHX SID and talking to Scottish.

How does the naming work?

And I might add the issue was usually that sodding great cell which seemed sit over the rosun hold or over MAN chucking it down with rain.

[BIGBAD]

operational reasons my a***, having operated into CDG for several years this is typical behaviour by the French. They will always favour AF or F reg over anybody else, I've seen it and heard too many anecdotal stories for it to be otherwise.

as they say in france C'est La Vie (or as we say in the uk tough sh1t)

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

I do sympathise if some ATC units abroad are not as impartial as they should be. However, a good few pilots are paranoid about their position in either the landing or departure sequence. Many of my ex-colleagues at smaller UK airfields have told me of pilots constantly whingeing about their place in the queue. Luckily it rarely happened at Heathrow but there was, at one time, a war twixt two major British airlines. A Captain with one, with whom I was well-acquainted privately, rang ATC to complain bitterly that a flight from the other airline, which had been above him approaching Bovingdon, had landed ahead of him. I explained that the other flight had been well ahead in terms of track miles and altitude made little difference but he would not accept it and said he would file a report. It probably went into the bin... At that time, the Supervisor's desk at Heathrow Tower had a small card with the contact details for the "other" airline's Chief Pilot who had asked to be informed if ever his crews complained about their sequence positions!!

So it's not always ATC chaps.....

[Katamarino]

Happens to everyone, not just the airlines! I sat in my C172 at the hold in Sarasota (first in line), having called ready, and was then made to stay there while two navy jets, a turboprop, a private jet, and two US private SEPs were put ahead of me; perhaps the controller dislikes UK accents...

[bigjames]

Happens to everyone, not just the airlines! I sat in my C172 at the hold in Sarasota (first in line), having called ready, and was then made to stay there while two navy jets, a turboprop, a private jet, and two US private SEPs were put ahead of me; perhaps the controller dislikes UK accents...



don't think it was the accent. obviously concerned about your wake turbulence....them 172s create quite a stir....:ok:

[salzkorn]

Bigbad and Gussett...
what a pile of crap you're writing here...
Crews will always complain that BA goes first in LHR, LH in FRA, IBE in MAD and so on...
Hasn't it simply to do with the sheer number of flights ? hmm ? ever thought of that ?

Discounted tickets on AF... laugh laugh... theoretically, yes, practically... that's an other story...
And doesn't NATS partly belong to BA ? speaking of financial interest....

And oh my god the poor chaps flying for Cityjet, how come they're always at the back of the queue ? Surely we don't like them... oh yes but... they're wearing the AF livery ! so what ? holy smoke !! what should we do then ?
of course, any relation to the lousy performance of their aircraft would be sheer coincidence......

And... shoot ! Flybe Dash8s to MAN will soon carry AF passengers !! should they go before or after the Airlinair ATR with the AF colours ?
Really, it's not an easy job we have here... favouring AF at all costs...

[BrATCO]

Salzkorn,

Isn't there an automated system dealing with sequencings in Paris and around ?
MAESTRO is its name if my memory's good.
I never worked in Paris, LFPG nor LFPO, but I heard that the computer "decides" (more or less) the sequence in regard of the traffic's position, ground speed, entry point, level and so on... The aircraft's company or nationality is not a factor.

Am I wrong ?

[kme]

Not going to add an opinion to speculations but as have already been said:

- if you are overtaken on the way in to Paris(read any major hub anywhere), statistically it is a very much higher chance it is by AFR(the major customer at said hub) then by DLH(smaller customer). This is a fact and whatever kind of politics you add to the discussions this effect should be accounted for in the discussion. Preferably with other arguments than that the overtaking pilot and controller have similar accents.

[411A]

As many pilots get paid by the block hour, one wonders....what's the beef?:rolleyes:

[salzkorn]

BrATCO,

In my post, I was referring to departing planes, because crews in that case obvioulsy perfectly identify who they're asked to yield to, who's first etc.

indeed, we have a tool to help us build an arrival sequence (MAESTRO). But it's a help, which proposes a sequence, which the controller analyses and amends. The computer doesn't "decide" anything.
In periods of light traffic, the task is quite easy. In periods of intense traffic, it can be quite a challenge... (adding to this, sometimes the "bugs" in the software).

We know that BA are parked beside the southern runway and LH or SWR are very close to the northern runway... when traffic permits, we'll assign the runway which makes for the shortest taxi. Some other times, it's simply not possible, or would undermine capacity, or, or, or... there are loads of reasons why it's not always possible.
As for "who lands first", we do as is most convenient for us..
We don't know in advance who will have to wait between the two runways, and we also know that who lands first will not necessarily reach their stand first...

[makosa]

BrATCO

Isn't there an automated system dealing with sequencings in Paris and around ?


No! It's a help to manage the flow..not the planes individually in the sequence..it doesn't decide anything..it gives an overview of what is arriving and proposes a sequence based on computing with a lots of variables, but still not enough to do the controller's sequencing job.

If you never worked in Paris, don't spread false facts ;) I don't talk about Oceanic Clearance because I don't know anything about it ;)

For the pilots flying jets into CDG, just count how many AirFrance's CityJet/Regional/Britair RJ85/F100/CRJ1 will overtake you..I doubt there'll be a lot ;)

[BrATCO]

salzkorn and Makosa,

I didn't want to insult you by saying the machine makes your job. That was not what I meant. Just wished to understand.
Some forein pilots complain about being overtaken by French companies in France but that's not the way we (you and me) were taught to work.
I thought that, even though you make the sequencing, the fact that a machine "helps" you would lighten up a bit the situation (and our perception of it).
And, as I'm interested in how controllers work around my sectors, I put it in a question.
Sorry if my question hurt you (and some others). I think the concept of the machine which will efficiently replace us in doing the sequencings (that most of the time begin over France entry points for destination Paris) is still in its creator's mother's belly.

Another question : does sometimes Paris ACC ask for last (or so) minute changes in your departure sequences for any reason ? I ask the question because my radar image is filtered below FL205 over Paris TMA. I can't see what happens below.

Regarding the oceanic clearances, we don't decide anything. The clearance comes from Shanwick and we have to comply with it (+ or - 2 mn over the entry point). The machine helps us fitting that by calculating the time over entry point (usually, doesn't work that well because of directs) and the cleared level. As long as everything is not in order, the tag on the radar track and a mini-strip are litten in blue on the screens. When everything is in order, we are allowed to "unlock" the clearance limit and transfert the flight to Shanwick HF.
We do all we can to comply with the clearance and we must co-ordinate (ie: get a new clearance) any change.

As you see, we do the job, but we don't decide. I wondered if it is (kind of) the same for Paris ACC when they sequence your arrivals.

[Chesty Morgan]

For the pilots flying jets into CDG, just count how many AirFrance's CityJet/Regional/Britair RJ85/F100/CRJ1 will overtake you..I doubt there'll be a lot

Has an RJ ever overtaken anything?!

:E

[wheelbarrow]

Has an RJ ever overtaken anything?!

Only if you are slower than 280 kts, have heard the Cityjet 146s been asked and complying to a 280 knot climb and descent and yesterday heard one being his speed, answer 300 kts :oh::oh:

But then you only have to look at the origen of manufacturer the Best of Ole boy!!

But it probably has its uses in shortfield and steep approach, it flys 95 geezers into the only airport anywhere near to city of Londonn.

"salzkorn............ they seem to fit in alright from what i hear and as 75% of the guys are hour building and dont pay the fuel, who cares if its 30 minutes late really. :)

[Chesty Morgan]

'Twas just a tongue in cheek comment wheelbarrow, I flew it for a few years.

Nowt wrong with 300kts, the Q limit on some was 305. ;)

[windowjob]

A few years ago I had both BA and AF taxying for Paris. AF had a slot 5 mins ahead of BA but was moving like a hearse with BA behind. "I can take an intersection" said BA so I lined him up aiming to utilise the -5 on his slot. "But I have the first slot" said AF. "At the end line up" he was told (you could do that then and he was still some way away from the threshold.) I fired the BA off, much to his amusement and AF still complaining and still taxying. As soon as he got to the end I fired AF off, still complaining. I said you have departed with no delay, exactly on your slot. He still complained until a little voice said "I'll wager £10 who lands first at Paris" :)

[A7700]

Ah the joys of LHR. Sit at the holding point and count the no of Rosbeef that get to go before you....

[Rumet]

Well, if nationality ever was a factor anywhere, I'd like to think it is now firmly a thing of the past.

Thank you for all replies. Thanks grizz for your kind message, as well as HEATHROW DIRECTOR and others for all your valuable operational insight.

[Capetonian]

windowjob's narration reminds me of a story I heard many years ago at LGW when WX at LHR were pretty bad and LGW took the overflow. This may be an urban legend but I still like it!

An SAA 747 and a Nigeria Airways 747 were parked next to each other on the apron. The WT captain was continually bleating about being parked next to a 'symbol of racism and colonialism' and asked to be moved. When the weather improved and flights were cleared for departure SAA got an earlier slot, which gave rise to a further tirade from Capt. Adeugbo. Eventually he got his clearance and a voice came over the air '... and now f*** off and annoy someone else'.

[A7700]

"Another question from BrATCO : does sometimes Paris ACC ask for last (or so) minute changes in your departure sequences for any reason ? I ask the question because my radar image is filtered below FL205 over Paris TMA. I can't see what happens below."

First there is even never call from the departure sector(s) of the approach to the tower(s) controllers...so to imagine that someone in the ACC request a change in the dep. sequence..(for what reason ?) he should have to work full time for that purpose and got an A-SMGCS display in front of him (No DMAN in use)...not sure that Paris ACC will agree for this additional work...

[BrATCO]

A7700,
Thank you.
When I worked on a (little-medium) field, APP and TWR controllers were shoulder to shoulder. Co-ordinations were non-stop. APP could ask TWR for changes even just before departure (posibility to backtrack if needed by sequence) sort of local FMP. The reason was, for exemple, departure of 2 or 3 ILS trainings with different speeds.

Departures from CDG/ORY to the west diverge only above FL290, when speeds can't be kept anymore. So I thought that ACC could have asked for "things" which APP could have passed to the TWR.
I understand this is not possible on a field the size of CDG.

Different fields/sectors, different methods.
Hence my question.

Thank you also for now I know a bit more about A-SMGCS and DMAN (had to google that...:O).

[Capt Groper]

Yes was No. 2 for T/O, then three AF flight given T/O CLRN at Ints in front of us. So told the young lady that if not CLRD next would have to return to the gate for fuel uplift. A unnessary 45 min wait so that the local carriers could be given preferential treatment. ;)

[BrATCO]

Capt Groper,
A bit more details ?
What time was it ?
What were their types of aircraft ?
What were their destinations ?
What were their SIDs ?
What were their CTOTs ?
What were yours ?
What was happening on the other departure runway ?
Have you heard about flight plan adherence lately ?

[Nock]

As shown by this topic it's always difficult to make everybody happy. And I would also add that in air traffic control, it appears to me that it's almost impossible to make somebody happy.
I was discussing a few days ago with a flight officer of the major french airline. We were talking about ATC and he said the following thing:

the problem with french air traffic controllers is that they don't give us priority and that's the problem because:
- in England, ATCOs give priority to BAW
- in Spain, that's Iberia that is privileged
so since the system is unfair, we should have priority in France.

By reading the topic I realized that we are being criticized from french pilots and for foreign pilot for exactly opposite reasons.
So I'm sorry pilots but we have no reasons at all to privilege french airlines, maybe sometimes you have the impression that some flights are privileged but that's only for ATC reasons and not because of their nationality.

I had the same discussion during a sequence of 2 flights, the 1rs traffic (major company) was a little bit slower than the 2nd (sister company of the 1rs one's). So I decided to reduce the n°2 mach number. I had this reply: "no because you are always privileging the major company". So I decided to try to increase the mach number of the first one. Guess the answer? "we don't want to change, you are always disfavouring us"
Darn...:ugh:

Nock

[Capt Groper]

I don’t want to get into an argument, but if you think that ATC were justifiable then they could have been more verbally helpful in informing their intentions. Keep everybody in the loop.

RWY 26R departure to east. No. 2 at the hold at approx 1130 local time.
Then three AF regional jets taxi down from terminal and take off from int. in front of me. Even the last had pushed back whilst we had already taxied to the holding pt.

All small size A320 and smaller.
No idea of their destinations or CTOTs.
We did not have a CTOT.
Northerly RWYs in use for T/O too.
After the third regional jet taking off call to ATC to confirm that we were READY (again). Unfortunately the reply was not informative of our posn in queue so had to say that 2 + another 3 A/C had already departed so how long would we be waiting?
Now 45 mins from P/B and all taxi fuel used. (2.4T/hr)
Yes I have heard of Flt Plan adherence, and we also wished to adhere to our flight plan too.

[BrATCO]

I understand your sadness.
I won't argue, just explain my thoughts. Stand to be (gently ?) corrected for anyone.

I do agree with you, more information would certainly have removed some of your resentment.
However, I know CDG is sometimes a bit busy and providing the full image to every departing plane must be impossible.

I'm sure they had good reasons to do so. I guess depending on your SID and the other one's.
Or maybe the planes who overtook you had CTOTs when you didn't (irony of the system ? :bored:)

As already said, CDG is the AF hub. There's a big risk some of them are before you. (Believe me, they complain as well when you're before them)

Regarding the full image, you said they were A320s or smaller. I don't know your type of ACFT and your dest. Maybe, on the average, they would have lost more than you : losing 500 kils on a 400 Nm sector is worse than losing a ton on a "half-around-the-world" trip. (one more of my distorted thoughts ?)
I don't know if the controller had time to think about that anyway.:confused:

Once, as I worked in an TWR/APP, I had 12 ACFT in the pattern + 3 IFR arrivals + 6 holding to depart. One pilot on the holding point told me that he was shutting his engines off, that he would need 5 mins to start them up again. Thanks me to call him back when I'm ready...:ouch:
It was some time ago, I still remember it.
Sometimes, things hit the fan, that's not when we've got time to explain or argue...

Just try and trust us : when someone is before you, anywhere in France, that's not because of his company.

Regards.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<- in England, ATCOs give priority to BAW>>

Garbage, complete and utter garbage. Those making such comments ought to spend a few hours in a busy ATC unit to see what happens and the reasons for the decisions. The controllers are far, far too busy to even think about prioritising particular companies.

[Nock]

<<- in England, ATCOs give priority to BAW>>

Garbage, complete and utter garbage. Those making such comments ought to spend a few hours in a busy ATC unit to see what happens and the reasons for the decisions. The controllers are far, far too busy to even think about prioritising particular companies. I know that, but as you can see, it seems difficult for pilots to get it!
It works for English ATCOs but also for French and Spanish! Surprisingly you didn't answer with such violence to the whole post...

[chillie]

HD...

Thank you for that. After 40 years in the business and many countries and units I have always found that controllers have more important things to worry about that the name on the tail.

Pilots need to know more about the overall picture.

c