Overtaken for take-off at CDG?
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Overtaken for take-off at CDG?
Was on GF018 from CDG on 13/08 as a pax. Taxiing parallel to rwy, for take-off on 26R, at around 11:30 local time. Shortly before right turn, captain annouced we were number 2 for take-off, and a few seconds later while we were holding short I saw an AF A318 take off. I thought we would be next, but then came an AF B777-300 ER from behind us, took a right turn ahead of us to 26R, and took off. Don't know its flight number but its registration was F-GZNG.
Now obviously ATC gave priority to this flight even though our captain had understood it would be our turn. Does anybody know what kind of operational reason could have caused this?
Thanks in advance.
Now obviously ATC gave priority to this flight even though our captain had understood it would be our turn. Does anybody know what kind of operational reason could have caused this?
Thanks in advance.
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The AF 777 captain is having a sordid affair with the No. 7 hostie and was in a hurry to get to the hotel. Understandably, under the circumstances, he received priority. Sorry you had wait 20 more seconds to depart. C'est la vie.
Rumet asked a simple (and most reasonable) question as to what operational reasons would cause the situation he described. Then a couple of ppruners with attitude decide to chide him.
For God's sake, if your only reason to post an "answer" is to get some of that chip off your shoulder, get some crayons instead and scribble on your walls...
Rumet: As silent-handover wrote, there are many operational reasons for that situation, and it's actually quite normal ops. The most common reasons have to do with separation immediatley after departure (related to enroute separation or flow management requirements).
The taxi out order can also be a bit different than the flow management approved departure times for different flights, so it can also be the case that the flight you saw depart just before yours had an earlier slot time, but was delayed at the gate. In which case there may well have been conversations between all the above participants on the ground frequency which, if you had been able to hear it, would have clarified the reason.
On behalf of controllers that enjoy being asked operational questions, I apologise for the shots from the ones with manhood issues...
grizz
For God's sake, if your only reason to post an "answer" is to get some of that chip off your shoulder, get some crayons instead and scribble on your walls...
Rumet: As silent-handover wrote, there are many operational reasons for that situation, and it's actually quite normal ops. The most common reasons have to do with separation immediatley after departure (related to enroute separation or flow management requirements).
The taxi out order can also be a bit different than the flow management approved departure times for different flights, so it can also be the case that the flight you saw depart just before yours had an earlier slot time, but was delayed at the gate. In which case there may well have been conversations between all the above participants on the ground frequency which, if you had been able to hear it, would have clarified the reason.
On behalf of controllers that enjoy being asked operational questions, I apologise for the shots from the ones with manhood issues...
grizz
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Rumet... As has been explained, there are many reasons why it could have happened, and mpst likely none to do with any favouritism to another airline. What you should keep in mind is that it would be impossible for the aircrew to tell the passengers everything that is happening. Within a few aseconds of him telling you all that you were number 2 to go he might have had another instruction from ATC changing the order and it's a busy time for the crew to keep the SLF up to date. It happens many times every day and does not mean that something untoward occurred.
The real time to be concerned is when you're overtaken on landing!
The real time to be concerned is when you're overtaken on landing!
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grizzled & HEATHROW DIRECTOR
Try flying to France or Spain ..... you'll realise that they aren't as polite dealing as the British! Controllers around France and Spain (I'm sure of it) get discounted travel on their national carrier and so give said carrier priority..... either that or they have a hatred of foreign airlines operating, but you will often see their "standard separation" between two foreign airlines is a case of bunging out as many national airlines as possible between the two.
Try flying to France or Spain ..... you'll realise that they aren't as polite dealing as the British! Controllers around France and Spain (I'm sure of it) get discounted travel on their national carrier and so give said carrier priority..... either that or they have a hatred of foreign airlines operating, but you will often see their "standard separation" between two foreign airlines is a case of bunging out as many national airlines as possible between the two.
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The fiddling of who goes first takes a bit of getting used to even as a pilot.
If your a small TP your knackard anyway cause they can bang out the mediums and heavys with less time in between.
Then you can get "why the sending those
first" then you see them all heading south, speak to a mate and you find out MAN to the north has issues so are only accepting a reduced number into the southern sector.
So getting shunted by anything up to 4-5 can be just be the ATCO getting max runway usage.
Although some days you can almost hear them singing.
"to the left, to the right, hey diddle diddle one up the middle"
Apart from the female controllers at BHX who always sound grumpy.
If your a small TP your knackard anyway cause they can bang out the mediums and heavys with less time in between.
Then you can get "why the sending those
first" then you see them all heading south, speak to a mate and you find out MAN to the north has issues so are only accepting a reduced number into the southern sector.So getting shunted by anything up to 4-5 can be just be the ATCO getting max runway usage.
Although some days you can almost hear them singing.
"to the left, to the right, hey diddle diddle one up the middle"
Apart from the female controllers at BHX who always sound grumpy.
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speak to a mate and you find out MAN to the north has issues so are only accepting a reduced number into the southern sector.
[Retired EGCC Twr and MACC ATSA]
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Haven't had the pleasure of talking to them since the move. Wouldn't seem right though getting chucked to area coming off a BHX SID and talking to Scottish.
How does the naming work?
And I might add the issue was usually that sodding great cell which seemed sit over the rosun hold or over MAN chucking it down with rain.
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operational reasons my a***, having operated into CDG for several years this is typical behaviour by the French. They will always favour AF or F reg over anybody else, I've seen it and heard too many anecdotal stories for it to be otherwise.
as they say in france C'est La Vie (or as we say in the uk tough sh1t)
as they say in france C'est La Vie (or as we say in the uk tough sh1t)
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I do sympathise if some ATC units abroad are not as impartial as they should be. However, a good few pilots are paranoid about their position in either the landing or departure sequence. Many of my ex-colleagues at smaller UK airfields have told me of pilots constantly whingeing about their place in the queue. Luckily it rarely happened at Heathrow but there was, at one time, a war twixt two major British airlines. A Captain with one, with whom I was well-acquainted privately, rang ATC to complain bitterly that a flight from the other airline, which had been above him approaching Bovingdon, had landed ahead of him. I explained that the other flight had been well ahead in terms of track miles and altitude made little difference but he would not accept it and said he would file a report. It probably went into the bin... At that time, the Supervisor's desk at Heathrow Tower had a small card with the contact details for the "other" airline's Chief Pilot who had asked to be informed if ever his crews complained about their sequence positions!!
So it's not always ATC chaps.....
So it's not always ATC chaps.....
Happens to everyone, not just the airlines! I sat in my C172 at the hold in Sarasota (first in line), having called ready, and was then made to stay there while two navy jets, a turboprop, a private jet, and two US private SEPs were put ahead of me; perhaps the controller dislikes UK accents...
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Happens to everyone, not just the airlines! I sat in my C172 at the hold in Sarasota (first in line), having called ready, and was then made to stay there while two navy jets, a turboprop, a private jet, and two US private SEPs were put ahead of me; perhaps the controller dislikes UK accents...
don't think it was the accent. obviously concerned about your wake turbulence....them 172s create quite a stir....
don't think it was the accent. obviously concerned about your wake turbulence....them 172s create quite a stir....
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come on...
Bigbad and Gussett...
what a pile of crap you're writing here...
Crews will always complain that BA goes first in LHR, LH in FRA, IBE in MAD and so on...
Hasn't it simply to do with the sheer number of flights ? hmm ? ever thought of that ?
Discounted tickets on AF... laugh laugh... theoretically, yes, practically... that's an other story...
And doesn't NATS partly belong to BA ? speaking of financial interest....
And oh my god the poor chaps flying for Cityjet, how come they're always at the back of the queue ? Surely we don't like them... oh yes but... they're wearing the AF livery ! so what ? holy smoke !! what should we do then ?
of course, any relation to the lousy performance of their aircraft would be sheer coincidence......
And... shoot ! Flybe Dash8s to MAN will soon carry AF passengers !! should they go before or after the Airlinair ATR with the AF colours ?
Really, it's not an easy job we have here... favouring AF at all costs...
what a pile of crap you're writing here...
Crews will always complain that BA goes first in LHR, LH in FRA, IBE in MAD and so on...
Hasn't it simply to do with the sheer number of flights ? hmm ? ever thought of that ?
Discounted tickets on AF... laugh laugh... theoretically, yes, practically... that's an other story...
And doesn't NATS partly belong to BA ? speaking of financial interest....
And oh my god the poor chaps flying for Cityjet, how come they're always at the back of the queue ? Surely we don't like them... oh yes but... they're wearing the AF livery ! so what ? holy smoke !! what should we do then ?
of course, any relation to the lousy performance of their aircraft would be sheer coincidence......
And... shoot ! Flybe Dash8s to MAN will soon carry AF passengers !! should they go before or after the Airlinair ATR with the AF colours ?
Really, it's not an easy job we have here... favouring AF at all costs...
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Salzkorn,
Isn't there an automated system dealing with sequencings in Paris and around ?
MAESTRO is its name if my memory's good.
I never worked in Paris, LFPG nor LFPO, but I heard that the computer "decides" (more or less) the sequence in regard of the traffic's position, ground speed, entry point, level and so on... The aircraft's company or nationality is not a factor.
Am I wrong ?
Isn't there an automated system dealing with sequencings in Paris and around ?
MAESTRO is its name if my memory's good.
I never worked in Paris, LFPG nor LFPO, but I heard that the computer "decides" (more or less) the sequence in regard of the traffic's position, ground speed, entry point, level and so on... The aircraft's company or nationality is not a factor.
Am I wrong ?
Last edited by BrATCO; 2nd Sep 2010 at 21:27.
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Statistics
Not going to add an opinion to speculations but as have already been said:
- if you are overtaken on the way in to Paris(read any major hub anywhere), statistically it is a very much higher chance it is by AFR(the major customer at said hub) then by DLH(smaller customer). This is a fact and whatever kind of politics you add to the discussions this effect should be accounted for in the discussion. Preferably with other arguments than that the overtaking pilot and controller have similar accents.
- if you are overtaken on the way in to Paris(read any major hub anywhere), statistically it is a very much higher chance it is by AFR(the major customer at said hub) then by DLH(smaller customer). This is a fact and whatever kind of politics you add to the discussions this effect should be accounted for in the discussion. Preferably with other arguments than that the overtaking pilot and controller have similar accents.
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Departures/Arrivals sequencing
BrATCO,
In my post, I was referring to departing planes, because crews in that case obvioulsy perfectly identify who they're asked to yield to, who's first etc.
indeed, we have a tool to help us build an arrival sequence (MAESTRO). But it's a help, which proposes a sequence, which the controller analyses and amends. The computer doesn't "decide" anything.
In periods of light traffic, the task is quite easy. In periods of intense traffic, it can be quite a challenge... (adding to this, sometimes the "bugs" in the software).
We know that BA are parked beside the southern runway and LH or SWR are very close to the northern runway... when traffic permits, we'll assign the runway which makes for the shortest taxi. Some other times, it's simply not possible, or would undermine capacity, or, or, or... there are loads of reasons why it's not always possible.
As for "who lands first", we do as is most convenient for us..
We don't know in advance who will have to wait between the two runways, and we also know that who lands first will not necessarily reach their stand first...
In my post, I was referring to departing planes, because crews in that case obvioulsy perfectly identify who they're asked to yield to, who's first etc.
indeed, we have a tool to help us build an arrival sequence (MAESTRO). But it's a help, which proposes a sequence, which the controller analyses and amends. The computer doesn't "decide" anything.
In periods of light traffic, the task is quite easy. In periods of intense traffic, it can be quite a challenge... (adding to this, sometimes the "bugs" in the software).
We know that BA are parked beside the southern runway and LH or SWR are very close to the northern runway... when traffic permits, we'll assign the runway which makes for the shortest taxi. Some other times, it's simply not possible, or would undermine capacity, or, or, or... there are loads of reasons why it's not always possible.
As for "who lands first", we do as is most convenient for us..
We don't know in advance who will have to wait between the two runways, and we also know that who lands first will not necessarily reach their stand first...