Night Qualification in the UK a waste of money?

[AdamFrisch]

I was thinking: how many airports are open to GA, at night and has runway lighting in the UK? How many of those charge you less than Jet Charter prices for their handling?

In short, is the NQ the most useless endorsement ever for the UK pilot?

[FlyingStone]

In my opinion, the night qualification with single-engine piston aircraft is basically useless anywhere in the world.

For example, given the terrain is many times unsuitable for forced landing at day, imagine how would you choose and approach it at moonless night? Not to mention, the weather has to be almost perfect (imagine that in the UK), if you want to do a safe VMC flight at night, since clouds aren't visible until you enter them and see strobe lights reflections in front of you. Night flying in all requires extensive pre-flight preparation, since you cannot (well, you can, I for one wouldn't) fly through narrow valleys at night, and since terrain isn't visible, it's very smart to fly at least 500 ft above the highest obstacle in the vicinity of expected flight path. And in order to do so, you need very good weather (high ceilings, great visibility).

Flying in at night in a single-piston is just not what I consider standard/normal ops, since in my opinion, risk simply cannot be managed to the same standard than in day conditions.

[A and C]

Education is seldom wasted.

[S-Works]

We have lights that are available 24x7 and I use them a lot especially in the winter. It means I don't have to worry about getting back before dark, especially when I have flown to work and we have over run.

As A&C education is not wasted especially when honing your skills as a pilot.

[stevelup]

I did a couple of hours of night flying last year as part of my PPL training.

I very much enjoyed it, and on a clear moonlit night, the visibility is absolutely staggering - it feels like you can see to infinity.

It's also a fantastic experience landing at an airport with the full runway lighting.

Even though I'm now based at a grass airfield with no lighting, I very much intend on completing my remaining hours for the night qualification as soon as it starts getting dark again.

I don't know how practically useful it will end up being, but this hasn't put me off.

[IO540]

I have found the NQ to be useful many times, during the colder months, for getting back home.

This is even though I do not fly at night, partly due to SE risk management, and partly due to most GA-usable airports being closed.

I have logged enough night time to get the CPL, etc.

There is a bit of a "conflict" between the NQ and the rest of PPL training, in that to fly on a proper dark night (as opposed to sunset+31 minutes, along the brightly lit coast from Bognor Regis to the Brighton Marina, which is when most UK PPLs log their night time ;) ) you need to be 100% instrument (aircraft control, and radio navigation) capable - yet night flight is permitted as a VFR/VMC activity without an IMCR or an IR. Kennedy Jr found this out the hard way :) If I was training somebody I care about (I am not an instructor of any sort) I would make sure they can do all the "IR" stuff before doing night flight.

[FlyingStone]

First of all, I agree that NQ is good education, it gives you little insight of a real IFR flight (attitude flying etc.), but night flying (except perhaps traffic pattern) in SEP is no-go for me...

@IO540: Back here a little to the south east from UK, we can fly completely VFR at night (I did my XC for NQ via DR and checking VOR radials at waypoints) and the only legally required radio-navigation instrument is a VOR receiver :oh: But I agree, a lot of people taht have NQ don't have the neccessary attitude flying skill/profficiency, which can be - as per your example - fatal.

[Contacttower]

On the subject of night flying in the UK do any airports here have pilot controlled lighting?

We have lights that are available 24x7 and I use them a lot especially in the winter. It means I don't have to worry about getting back before dark, especially when I have flown to work and we have over run.

Out of interest which airfield is that?

[VFR Transit]

There is a few places that operate PCL but is mainly used by based aircraft or not at all :ugh:

There is an airfield near me here in the Suffolk that has PCL but refuse to operate it based on not wanting to piss off the NIMBYS and plus the extra electric costs :ugh:

The UK is a nightmare at times :*

VFR

[julian_storey]

Definitely NOT a waste of money!

The point made by a previous poster, that any kind of additional flight training is seldom waster, is entirely valid.

Also, especially if you are based at an airfield with lights, it's nice not to need to be back from that Christmas shopping trip in France, by 15.30 :)

[S-Works]

Out of interest which airfield is that?

A private airfield with POL.

[Mark1234]

Well, I haven't used mine in this country, so in the UK, possibly. Frankly I need to do some procedures study before I do, as I got it 'granted' through having it on my Aus license, however, it is definitely not useless worldwide as FlyingStone suggests.

In aus it requires 10hrs, plus a 2hr flight with the examiner; including a *lot* of instrument appreciation, and radio nav. Mandatory 2+hr nav flight away from centres of habbitation (in other words black hole, and black like you can't imagine from europe). Legal requirements to observe MSA, calculate MSA for route, etc. Additionally the examiner pointed out it was a license to kill myself, and made me do all my VOR/NDB intercepts in solid cloud, bumpy and wet, and yes, I got some pretty funky 'leans' that never occurred 'under the hood'. I don't think I've ever been so stressed (as in under pressure), in an aircraft before or since. Which I suspect was exactly what was intended.

For my aus license, it removes me from needing to be in sight of the surface, and visually fixing my position. That and the ability to stretch the day have been the most evidently useful. The extra rigour training and thought process changed the way I approached a lot of planning. And lastly, whilst I would never deliberately flout VMC, I'm pretty comfortable that I can put my head down and fly out of it on the clocks if the need arises, whether in VMC or IMC.

So, useless? Absolutely not. As for the risks, SE at night is like SE IFR, SE over water, etc.. down to your personal assessment. Besides, you can fly a twin on a NQ can you not? (you can down there)

[Flyingmac]

As part of my night training my instructor got me to head out to sea. As soon as I lost sight of the coastal lights in my peripheral vision I was totally on intruments. No moon so no sight of the surface.

It begs the question. Without an IMCr, would I have been legal, and safe?

[FlyingStone]

As for the risks, SE at night is like SE IFR, SE over water, etc.. down to your personal assessment.

Well actually, it's worse than SE IFR. With SE IFR you still have the chance of selecting terrain for force landing when you descend below the ceiling (provided it isn't foggy on the ground), but with SE at night you won't see the type of terrain until landing lights reaches the ground, which is what - 50 ft?

But as you say, it's down to one's personal assessment...

[spikeair]

Yep, Whilst its legal to get a NQ straight after getting a PPL, I think having a IMCr first makes a lot of sense. With that , losing the horizon should not be a big deal. it also means that should you get lost, you can use radio navigation to find your way or even flying an instrument approach into somwhere to get down. it also means that if you encounter cloud (which is harder to spot unless it between you and some lights) again its not a big deal.
(Flying in the UK at night has to be IFR anyway as well.)

[julian_storey]

As part of my night training my instructor got me to head out to sea. As soon as I lost sight of the coastal lights in my peripheral vision I was totally on intruments. No moon so no sight of the surface.

It begs the question. Without an IMCr, would I have been legal, and safe?

If you head out over the sea on a 'grey' (but still VFR) day, there is no discernible horizon. I'm not sure it's THAT much different.

[Flyingmac]

If you head out over the sea on a 'grey' (but still VFR) day, there is no discernible horizon. I'm not sure it's THAT much different

Pitch black every way you look. It's VERY different.

[goldeneaglepilot]

Having experienced a total engine faliure while instructing a pilot (for his instrument rating) during winter on an extended cross country (Birmingham, Jersey return), The flight started in the day but departure was delayed. I said I would NEVER fly single engine at night again, 20 years later I have not. Its not worth the risk. Its handy to know how, as an extra skill, useful to get out of trouble but questionable about its wisdom if you have not got at the very least an IMC rating and dont mind facing the prospect of death when you cant see the terrain if the engine stops.

I was very lucky, I was at FL100, in an airway at the start of the emergency and was able to finally glide to a large military airport with 24hr D&D via a PAR approach. This was after having initially declared a Pan call when the engine started to run rough 5 min before it stopped totally. The vibration was so severe that several instruments failed (it was almost impossible to see them with the vibration) I thought that we had lost part of the propellor due to the amount of vibration.

That night I was incredibly lucky, I think that luck like that happens rarely twice in a life time and its a risk I can avoid.

So no more single engine at night for me. At least in IFR day time flight you have a chance of seeing some ground when you drop out of the bottom of the clag if the engine stops, but I pick my days for flights in an IFR single. If the weather is too extreme, I dont go.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

I think having a IMCr first makes a lot of sense
I did some of my IMCr lessons at night (less demand for the aircraft and instructors). It was straight onto instruments during the climb out. Without the instrument training I would have been somewhat unhappy.

[Mark1234]

Note I didn't suggest it was the *same risk* as SE IFR etc., but that it was 'like'. Like in as much as some people will argue vehemently that it is tantamount to suicide, and some will not see any issue.

I can profess no knowledge of the UK NQ syllabus, but to flyingmac and spikeair in particular, in *my* humble opinion, if being without a horizon is an issue, you are ill advised to fly at night. However, whilst night flying does require significant instrument appreciation, it does not require an instrument rating; there is significantly more to an instrument rating than simply flying by the clocks.

Again, it's simply my own experience, but it was drummed into me that on a night takeoff you go straight onto instruments as soon as the wheels leave the runway, and stay there until 500ft minimum; something to do with somatogravic illusions..

[IO540]

dont mind facing the prospect of death when you cant see the terrain if the engine stops.

Oddly enough the stats don't suggest that a night engine failure is much more likely to kill you than a daytime one.

Not sure what that is telling us... maybe most pilots cannot land in a field in daylight?

[Jan Olieslagers]

I doubt whether the number of occurrences is sufficient to allow meaningful statistics. Night VFR and engine failures both being rare, today.

[VFR Transit]

I have heard several people say that if the engine went bang at night, they would go straight for a lit road.

I guess each to their own :hmm:

VFR

[NazgulAir]

I don't believe that one should look at the IMCr as essential preparation for a NQ. The whole purpose of the NQ is to be able to fly VFR at night, without doing any actual instrument flying. Flying VFR at night your head should be looking out, not glued to any instruments. They may help, but primary navigation is visual.
The IMCr and the NQ are two completely different qualifications and the conditions for which they are intended are almost mutually exclusive.

I did my NQ at Biggin Hill in an aircraft with only basic VFR gauges, no gyros, a single comm only, its only extras the required navlights. It was interesting to learn to navigate using completely different clues than those conspicuous by day.

As for VFR Night forced landings, I think one can only be sure to pick a suitable landing area if one is very familiar with the terrain -- to the point of knowing most of the dark patches and their nature (land or water, field, forest, slope, what kind of crop, etc.). If the area is not your own back yard, picking a field is pure guesswork.

So, how useful was my NQ? Not very useful in the sense of doing a lot of night VFR flying. In The Netherlands VFR night flight is not allowed. Even if you have an IR you need to fly regularly at night to keep a NQ current, which means access to lighted airports, etc. My NQ lapsed, but the training was fun and the experience is useful -- being able to navigate visually at night could make an instrument failure less critical if it's a clear night with a good moon.

[Katamarino]

I guess they don't allow us to fly VFR at night in the Netherlands because of the huge amount of unpopulated, unlit wilderness, and the rugged hills and mountains that we might fly into...:suspect:

Or it may be because the Dutch regulators are not very smart, and also hate GA... :eek:

[UV]

I don't believe that one should look at the IMCr as essential preparation for a NQ. The whole purpose of the NQ is to be able to fly VFR at night, without doing any actual instrument flying

Well the Night Rating used to required 5 hours Instrument Flying experience and the Helicopter Night Rating still requires 10 hours IF.

The IMCr and the NQ are two completely different qualifications and the conditions for which they are intended are almost mutually exclusive.



Maybe, but try taking off over unlit ground/sea, without instruments available, and you may get a nasty shock.

[NazgulAir]

I guess they don't allow us to fly VFR at night in the Netherlands because of the huge amount of unpopulated, unlit wilderness, and the rugged hills and mountains that we might fly into...http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/cwm13.gifNot to mention the big skyscrapers, hundreds of thousands of ditches and large industrial estates. And the windmills, of course. ;)
Or it may be because the Dutch regulators are not very smart, and also hate GA... http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/eek.gifSpot on.

Actually, there is some VFR night flying from time to time. It takes a huge amount of organising, can only be done in the circuit, and a safety pilot with a full and current IR must be in the right hand seat.
Or else you just go to Belgium, or Germany, or France, or the UK.

Well the Night Rating used to required 5 hours Instrument Flying experience and the Helicopter Night Rating still requires 10 hours IF.
True, and using the instruments will help, but you can legally fly VFR at night in an aircraft that has only basic instruments, no horizon and no navaids of any kind. Even the radio is optional if you fly in airspace that does not require it. You may fly in a classic with just an airspeed indicator, VSI, altimeter, RPM indicator, oil pressure gauge and a cork bobbin for a fuel indicator and a piece of string for slip, As long as it has navlights.
I'd think that you'd need enough ambient light to recognize a horizon at least. Plus a cloudless sky -- or at least minimal cloud cover that won't affect the flight's ground cover at any time. The conditions that make VFR night flying safe are pretty rare.

[BasicService]

Schedule 4 of the Air Navigation Order:

(2) Aeroplanes
a) flying for purposes other than
commercial air transport or public
transport and
i) flying by night
C, D, G(2) and
(3) and GG

Scale D
(1) In the case of a helicopter or gyroplane, a slip indicator.
(2) In the case of any other flying machine either:
(a)
a turn indicator and a slip indicator; or
(b) a gyroscopic bank and pitch indicator and a gyroscopic direction indicator.
(3) A sensitive pressure altimeter adjustable for any sea level barometric pressure which
the weather report or forecasts available to the commander of the aircraft indicate is
likely to be encountered during the intended flight.

[Mark1234]

Rather ironic that you have to have instrument time to get the rating, yet (possibly) can fly without. Love regulators - usually they over legislate, but even if you can, it doesn't mean you *should*: Flight at night without instruments would be extremely limiting, and require ambient light. Not good if the ambient light went out - in truth it makes little difference whether the air is transparent or not if there's nothing to see.

Done properly and properly equipped, night flight need not be anywhere near as limiting as suggested - depending upon your attitude to the perenial engine stopping question.

[RatherBeFlying]

Here in North America, I ended up doing a considerable amount of my powered XC at night.

A large portion of engine failures are due to running out of fuel -- easily prevented by flight planning and looking into the tank. I once paid for fuel where the a/c had been tied down for the week, pulled the caps and found next to nothing:eek:

The engine failure situation that most worries me is the initial takeoff segment. Even most piston twins are highly vulnerable at that time.

Forced landing odds are pretty good. Flying into terrain or water in or out of control is by far the major killer at night. Instrument skills are required as yes, you do fly into cloud on occasion as well as black holes and hazy conditions and had better be ready for it as Kennedy was not.

I too go onto the AH on lift off at night as there's a number of people who have flown perfectly good airplanes into the ground shortly after takeoff.

[Romeo Tango]

I fly SE at night from time to time. I avoid if possible but it is enjoyable when i do it. IMHO not much worse risk than winter over the sea.
I'll be doing it more when I get the lights in on my strip.

Bill