RAF2000 - anyone flown one ?

[gijoe]

As featured in this months Flyer, has anyone flown one of these little gyrocopters ?

If so, good fun, different etc ??

[ustillflyin]

I flew one for a sales demo at the EAA fly in
at Oshkosh Wisconsin, USA last year. They are really small, great for short (very) field TO/Landings. But a little skitish for conversion from a fixed wing. I found it easy to fly, but you really got to watch what your doing as it's very easy to start a pilot induced oscillation (sp?)
Oh, and the demo pilot showed me how to do a "darn near hover".
I thought they were pretty cool, but I couldn't buy one as all my capital is tied up in flight training

[Sensible]

Is this it???

http://www.raf2000.com/

[gijoe]

That's the one - I first saw one of these a couple of years ago and fancied having a go at it. I've now got a bit of spare dosh and am giving it seriuos thought. The article in Todays Pilot ( not flyer as I wrote before) said that gyrocopter training can be done at Henstridge or Carlisle. Anyone got any experience ??

Also, does anyone know of a distributor for the RAF2000 in the UK ?

http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/cool.gif

[This message has been edited by gijoe (edited 22 May 2001).]

[Whirlybird]

I first got interested in the RAF 2000 about a year ago, as a cheaper substitute for a helicopter. At the time, the only place where you could do a trial lesson in the RAF 2000 was at Carlisle. I went up there, but it had some mechanical problem and we were only able to do short hops along the runway at about 30 feet. Not enough to tell you much, but great fun, very skittish (more even than an R22) and if you're big or tall don't bother, as they're very very small. I eventually decided I wouldn't trust anything with that many moving parts to either my own or anyone else's selfbuild skills, and stuck with helos and bankruptcy by rotation. There is a guy in Devon who imports and distributes them, and I've since heard he will bring one to almost any airfield for a demo/trial flight if he might have a sale. He advertises in Flyer and/or Pilot. There are seven gyro instructors in the country, and most of them can teach you to fly your own RAF 2000, even if they don't have one themselves. There's quite a lot of other stuff about gyros on the Internet, but I can't remember details; do a search and it's easy to find. Good luck; tell me what it's like if you do fly one properly; I'm still kind of interested.

------------------
Whirly

To fly is human, to hover, divine.

[This message has been edited by Whirlybird (edited 22 May 2001).]

[gijoe]

Thanks Whirly

Being a fixed wing AFI what are going to be the main problems in trying to master the RAF2000 then ?

http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/cool.gif Most appropriate for today - how long will this weather last ?

[Whirlybird]

gijoe,

No idea really, but people do say it's difficult to fly, at least compared to other gyros. That may not be saying all that much, as the others are pretty easy - I had a trial flight in another one while I was in Carlisle and was doing almost everything but taking off (bit complicated, can't remember why) within an hour, and I'm a slow learner. When you mention the RAF 2000, people mutter darkly about negative G and a tendency to get into uncontrollable oscillations! Having said that, people do fly them, for quite long distances. There's quite a good article in an issue of Flyer a bit back, can't remember the date, and Richard Boswell seemed to think they were pretty easy to fly. But he does have thousands and thousands of hours, both f/w and rotary.

All this is making me want to have another try myself...

------------------
Whirly

To fly is human, to hover, divine.

[Roxy]

Did anyone actually get round to buying/operating/training on the RAF2000.
I would be interested to hear your comments with regards to.
Cheers and thanks again.

[Jodelman]

If you want a ride in a Gyro as a passenger, best do it before the end of the month (when liability insurance becomes compulsory) as passenger liability cover is difficult to find for this class of aircraft.

[skua]

a guy in the same aircraft group as me built one a couple of years ago (which won some class at the PFA Rally), and has since become a gyrocopter instructor. He can be contacted via

[email protected]

good luck

Skua

[bar shaker]

Read the AAIB reports before commiting yourself to an RAF2000.

There was a fatal near where I live and the machine had recently won Best Built Gyro at their annual show. It was being flown by a 2000 hour instructor. Instructor and owner both killed. Turbulence meant the rotor hit the tailplane. The loss of either part would have been a serious problem.

Approx 5% of the total fleet end up in the hangar at Farnborough in any one year. Almost all are fatal.

Now where are my pipe and slippers?

[Whirlybird]

Bar shaker,

2000 hr instructor on what? All on gyroplanes? If not, he/she may not have been aware of the likelihood of negative g in turbulence, and the dangers of it for any aircraft, helicopter or gyroplane, with a teetering rotor head.

There have definitely been a lot of gyro accidents recently, but I'm not sure that this is the fault of the machines. There aren't many instructors or gyro pilots, so once you learn, you can be fairly much on your own. Not good for a low hours pilot of any machine.

I gather that the RAF2000 has some definite stability problems. However, nothing I've heard suggests that it isn't safe if flown within its limitations. So let's not jump to too many conclusions here.

[Croqueteer]

I agree with barshaker. I watch one crash from 10ft on take-off with a sudden nose down pitch for no reason we could find. Fortunately the very experienced instructor and owner/student (not solo after about 70 hrs) had minor injuries only due to the low altitude. I would avoid it. This of course in only my opinion.

[shortstripper]

There's always been mistrust of gyro's ever since PeeWee Judge's (probably spelt wrong ... so sorry) accident years ago. Once something gets a reputation it takes some shifting. Ken Wallis seems to have managed all these years ok!

If I had the money ... I'd learn to fly one!

SS

[Mike Cross]

Ken Wallis seems to have managed all these years ok! You've not seen the video of his crash then?

Not a pretty sight being flung around like a rag doll. Of course he does have the distinction of being probably the most capable gyro pilot in the UK.

[Roxy]

Thanks very much for all your comments guys.
Still thinking about buying this machine.
Please keep the posts comming.
Does anyone have anything good to say about the RAF2000 or is it just complete negativity all round?
If it works then it seems to suite my purpose.

Cheers

[Chuck Ellsworth]

" Did anyone actually get round to buying/operating/training on the RAF2000.
I would be interested to hear your comments with regards to.
Cheers and thanks again. "

........................................

Roxy:

I can answer your question.

Stay as far away from a RAF 2000 as you can.

The machine is a very poorly designed gyro, built by backyard mechanics.

The reason for the insatbility is due to a very high thrustline in relation to its vertical center of gravity, resulting in the risk of a power pushover departure from controlled flight should certain factors such as PIO or turbulence upset its pitch attitude in flight...the lower the airspeed and the higher the power setting the quicker the bunt will occur.

Yes, I own one...no I will never fly it unless I make major changes..

Do I understand the subject? I think I have a fair grasp of the subject.

The name of that company is "Rotary Airforce "Marketing "

The only word that you should study is "Marketing" when looking at that product.

In most of the world you can add a horizontal stabalizer to an RAF, this is only a bandaid as far as fixing the pitch instability in a factory RAF, however the last I checked your CAA will not allow any changes to the machine and you must fly it as is...even if it kills you.

Hopefully that helps to clear up some of your concerns?

Chuck Ellsworth

[bar shaker]

AAIB report (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/factor342003.pdf)

Roxy, Chuck is one of the most experienced and adventurous pilots on this board. If he owns one and won't fly it, keep your money in your pocket.

If it works then it seems to suite my purpose.

Would that purpose be to meet your maker shortly, in a sudden, unexpected way?

[Whirlybird]

Chuck,
Thanks for that. I knew it had stability problems, but I didn't know why.

Roxy,
I don't know specifically what your "purpose" is, but did you know there's a new two-seater gyro around, hopefully about to be OK'd (or whatever the official word is) by the CAA in a couple of months. It's called the ELA or ETA; can't remember which. It looks a lot like the VPM, but is half the price - about £24,000. Roger Savage Gyroplanes up at Carlisle has one; I saw it and sat in it at the London Air Show, and as far as I can tell it seems like a nice little machine. And it's probably safer than the RAF2000; I know Roger Savage isn't too keen on those - or wasn't when I went up there a few years ago. Might be worth looking into.

[Pilgrim101]

Brilliant machine to fly, if a little highly strung ! I confess to a few sixpence half a crown moments though !;)

I never felt quite at ease in a Gyroplane - all those aerodynamic formulae just stacking up against the logic of flying a stubby little aeroplane with a freely rotating main rotor which is susceptible to -ve g and a type of "mast bumping" ??? There's a lot of turbulence about and it focuses the mind in any Gyro.

[Mike Cross]

Khalid Aziz has one G-SAYS which he built and flys from Popham occaisonally. Subaru engine.

http://www.popham-airfield.co.uk/images/G-SAYS.jpg

His email is [email protected]

[Roxy]

Beginning to think that I should just stick to my scairy bus! And have none of this nonsense!
All comments greatfully appreciated.

Cheers

[Chuck Ellsworth]

A few more comments on the RAF.

Go to this site and click on the title on the top of the first page, that will take you to the forums where there will be enough reading on the RAF to keep you busy for years.

www.rotaryforum.com/index.php


I was involved with RAF in 1991 when they first started, the plan was to add the Gyro to my flight training school as I already had both airplanes and helicopters. ( R22 on floats Whirly... ) anyhow to make this short, I was concerned about the pitch instability and the factory refused to even add a HS, so we parted company very quickly...to this day they still refuse to improve their design despite many deaths due to the thing bunting over in flight.

I recommend Roger Savage very highly, he in my opinion is the guy to see on that island you guys share with many illegal immigrants. :D


Have a good look at the picture of that green RAF and note the lack of a horizontal stabalizer and how weird that looks, nevermind the need for one.....then go see how many flying machines lack a H.S...you can start with birds last time I saw one it had a big H.S. and whoever designed it must have put a tail on e'm for good reason....

...or you could pull the feathers off a set of darts and see what happens to how the dart flys.... :)

At your service with advice to keep you alive forever.....

Chuck E.

[Algirdas]

I attended a CAA safety evening recently, and the nice CAA man presented stats that showed gyros as a breed kill about (as I recall) 15 times more pilots than fixed wing, per hour flown. If you believe that some gyros are far safer than others (the Magni VPM is one that springs to mind) and adjust the risk for the worst types accordingly, then the chances of premature topping are unacceptably high IMHO.
Stick to the knitting!

:}

[Chuck Ellsworth]

The problem with flying gyros is there are not enough instructors that understand gyroplane stability.

A properly designed gyroplane is safer and easier to learn to fly with proper instruction than either an airplane or a helicopter.

read this link.

www.littlewingautogyro.com/index.html

It is all about lack of information, and yes the Magni is another very safe design.

Chuck E.

[shortstripper]

I've always wanted to fly a gyro ... and that one really looks great Chuck! :cool: One day.... sigh!

SS

[Roxy]

Chuck, Thanks for that!
I have spoken to Roger Savage by e-mail and he has agreed to do my training on the machine if I buy it.
I do know that he is not a great lover of it but have not had the chance to talk to him in person with regards to this.
I have also posted a thread on Rotorhead forum and I am sure that you can imagine the response that I got.
No one seems to have anything good to say about the RAF2000 at all.
Not having flown one or in one yet I can't even pass comment or offer an opinion at all.
Can't believe that it's the lethal death trap that everyone seems to be making out but there again I fully appreciate that there is no smoke without fire!
Were you based around Carlisle at any time??

Cheers
R

[Chuck Ellsworth]

posted 20th April 2005 17:09
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I've always wanted to fly a gyro ... and that one really looks great Chuck! One day.... sigh!

SS

...........................................................

We should try and do everything that we yearn for...because tomorrow may never come..

Chuck E.

[Whirlybird]

I'm not convinced that the CAA stats with respect to gyros are statistically significant...there aren't enough of the breed around to draw any conclusions, IMHO. I prefer to trust Chuck's opinion. :ok:

[Chuck Ellsworth]

For those of you that would like to read some factual information you ought to contact Dr. Stuart Houston at the U. of Glasgow. He has conducted considerable research on gyroplane stability in general and the RAF-2000 in particular.

Me I am only a lowly mechanic / pilot and I would rather take my advice from people educated in the art of science and mathematics, hell I'm barely literate.

Chuck

[Noah Zark.]

Slightly digressing from the thread a moment, Shortstripper mentioned John "PeeWee" Judge's accident. It was at Farnborough, but I can't remember the year.
It was the first airshow I had been able to persuade my wife to go to, in an effort to win her over to "Aren't aeroplanes brill?".
PeeWee gave a spirited display, and came from the western end of the airfield, at about 30ft. or so as I recall, rising and decending fairly rapidly as he flew along.
Unfortunately, the rotor hit the top of the tail fin with the tragic results we all know. It happened directly in front of us, and could not have been more graphic. R.I.P.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Roxy wrote:

" Can't believe that it's the lethal death trap that everyone seems to be making out but there again I fully appreciate that there is no smoke without fire!
Were you based around Carlisle at any time?? "

....................................

Roxy :

Before you fly any aircraft it is wise to first fully explore the history and record of that aircraft.

I normally will not make a definitave statement regarding any make or model of aircraft. However in the case of the RAF 2000 I will caution you about flying any RAF 2000 as configured from the factory because they are a very, very dangerous design and have killed some high time helicopter pilots and high time airplane pilots.

Would you fly a Cessna 172 with the C of G so far out of limits rearward that recovery from a spin would be impossible?

The problem with the RAF 2000 and its high thrustline is only different in that you would not have the same time left to live once the upset occurs, in the Cessna you would be watching the earth revolve as you spin in. In the RAF if it bunts over you die real fast as the rotor destroys the tail and it just snaps end over end...so I guess if you are going to choose how to die the RAF would be the choice as it will be quick.

Strange that any regulating body will not allow you to add an H.S. to a known design defect, it is not a cure all but will dampen pitch excursions in the RAF.

No I have only been in Carlisle once to visit Roger Savage, I was stuck in London waiting for a renewal of my visa for Saudi Arabia and rented a car and drove up.

Chuck E.

[Skylark4]

Roxy,
Forgive me if I have mis-understood but I read your last post as saying that despite all that you have read on this Forum, you are still going to go ahead and buy a 2000.

If this is the case, please go and see a psychiatrist and try to sort out where this death wish of yours comes from.

If you are poor, like most of us, go buy a Flexwing Microlight. Same sort of performance and less noise than a Gyro. Folds up just about as small.

If you are rich, go buy a helicopter.

Mike W

Have you never noticed that the only place you see gyros is at airshows and you never see one transiting overhead. I've seen more powered parachutes in the air than gyros.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Just to reconfirm something, a properly designed gyro is just about the most pleasant and fun flying machine you can get. Also with proper training they are very safe.

For what ever it is worth I have been flying helicopters since 1965 and gyroplanes since 1991, and am the holder of U.S Commercial Gyroplane Pilot License and have flown several different makes of gyros.

If I ever retire from this damn flying business I plan on rebuilding my RAF 2000 to a centerline thrust with proper tail feathers on it, then I want to build a Little Wing....

Go get a ride with Roger Savage in his Magni and if you are not really impressed I'll be very suprised.

Chuck.

[LowNSlow]

That littlewings autogyro looks fantastic. A bit like a Kitfox with the mainplane replaced with a rotor system. Shame it's plans built.

[Fergus Kavanagh]

By all means buy a gyro and have fun.

But please, not a standard RAF.

Standard Raf = 18 dead.
Raf with stabiliser = 1 dead. (and we're not sure how he managed
to do it)

Prime funeral candidates are high-time fixed-wing pilots with
low gyro-time.

As in Pee-Wee Judge et al, including the previously referred
accident to Gerry French's machine, the PIC was a high-time
ATPL with low gyro-time, not a gyro instructor.

You cannot install a stabiliser in the UK, courtesy of Section T
structural requirements.

Please go for a Magni, or an ELA (when it gets past Section T).

Or anything else that is legal in the U.K.

Chuck knows what he's talking about.

R22 pilots will understand the problems associated with
low/zero-G.
High-thrustline gyros are worse than that.

Properly configured/stabilised gyros are bloody marvellous.!!

Cheers.

P.S.

All gyros come with a roll cage for crash protection.
It\'s just not that obvious.

Cartwheel accidents like Ken Wallis\'s at Newtownards look
really spectacular, but pilots usually come out uninjured or
minor injury.

PIO/Power pushovers are not recoverable or survivable.

[bar shaker]

Roxy

It seems that you asked for advice, got it from the very best people around and have chosen to completely ignore it.

I suggest you buy and fly an RAF2000 at the earliest oppurtunity.

[Milt]

Go to the "Caption Competition", page 18, and have a look at the predecessor of the RAF2000.

[Whirlybird]

Bar Shaker,

Roxy will have taken it in. I did almost the same thing a few years ago - kept being told not to buy one, and why, and kept saying, "But it looks so pretty; it's like a cheap R22". But I didn't buy one. I HAD been listening. I just didn't want to admit it, even to myself, since I was so disappointed. That's how human nature works. :confused:

[Roxy]

To everyone including Bar Shaker, thank you very much for all your comments and advice.

Greatly appreciated!

Roxy

[Genghis the Engineer]

Fergus said
Or anything else that is legal in the U.K.
Except possibly an Air Command, whose body count at-least in the UK is rather higher that the RAF's. It should be sorted now, but why take the risk?

G

[Chuck Ellsworth]

I would like to clear up one thing about the lack of a H.S. and the very high thrust line defect on the RAF 2000.


This problem is not because of the CAA section T requirements.

The problem is because RAF will not admit that their design has some fatal flaws and have for many years refused to modify their product...

If RAF changed the design, or even put a H.S. on it that would solve your problem in the UK with regard to section T.

And everyone could retrofit the lethal killers that they are now forced to either fly as is, or park in the UK.

Chuck E.

[chopperpilot47]

I'm not a doom monger but... A few years back I bought a gyroplane and built it from a kit with a friend. I enjoyed the building process and we both trained in the Midlands. During training he was killed in front of my eyes due to Pilot induced oscillation. It happened in seconds and the gyro flew apart in the air when the rotor chopped the tail off. I convinced myself later that he died due to inexperience and I bought another one. Within a very short time seven people died in accidents in the same type of gyroplane. I knew every one of them personally. That model of gyroplane was then grounded and I got rid of mine.

I had a gyroplane licence but never flew one again. I became a commerical pilot aeroplanes and later helicopters. I now make a living flying both.

Gyroplanes have a terrible accident record compared with other types of aviation. There are reasons, many gyro pilots are inexperienced, the engines are not the most reliable and PIO is a known hazard. Flight in turbulence and high winds is not a pleasant experience.

I suspect that our enthusiatic poster will go his own way, as I did, but I'm older and wiser now and still feel the loss of those friends and acqaintances. Take care whatever decision you make.

Regards,

Chopperpilot 47

[Chuck Ellsworth]

With all due respect to Chopperpilot please allow me to comment on this comment he made.

Quote:

"and PIO is a known hazard. Flight in turbulence and high winds is not a pleasant experience. "

This only holds true in gyroplanes that are configured wrong, any gyroplane that has been designed properly and does " N O T " have a large vertical thrust line off set and has an effective H.S. is just as stable as any other flying machine, and being a rotorcraft it will fly in turbulence better than a fixed wing of the same weight.

The problem in the gyroplane group is there are just to many dangerous designs such as the subject of this thread still out there killing their owners.

Chuck

[Genghis the Engineer]

Firstly to support Chuck in what he says, although I'm not a gyroplane expert by any means, I have seen PIO problems (usually in pitch) in both fixed wing aeroplanes and airships, and I believe that they aren't unknown in helicopters. It's basically a design problem, not necessarily an easy one to predict, but one which should be designed out of any aircraft before it's certified.

In my opinion, having read a fair bit of design information on Gyros, including BCAR Section T, and much of the published work on Gyroplane stability and control, Gyroplanes are not inherently dangerous. Equally clearly however, there are at-least a few types out there with highly unsatisfactory safety records- the RAF2000 and the Air Command being the most obvious.

I'd venture that there are two basic reasons for the, frankly awful, gyroplane safety record - in the UK in particular, but generally worldwide.

(1) They don't make any money, therefore there's no funding for serious safety research, and

(2) They aren't all that popular, so there isn't really a big community of people comparing notes and learning from each other.

If you can solve those two problems, then gyroplanes won't yet be as safe as fixed wing or helicopters - but will start to get there. It should also start to become possible to see any real safety issues with gyroplane design and tackle them far more effectively than is possible at the moment.

I must admit, I'd love a chance to be asked to try and tackle some of these problems - but it would take a lot of time and money, neither of which I have at my disposal. In the meantime, such work has got to come from either some "cash rich" university looking to generate some interesting and orginal work (such as has happened to an extent at Glasgow University (http://www.aero.gla.ac.uk/Research/Fd/Project5.htm)) , or by some talented individuals within gyroplane community banging a lot of heads together and forcing a degree of change.

I hope it does happen sooner or later, because I suspect strongly that the gyroplane concept has a lot to offer yet, which is being lost because of the poor safety record over the last couple of decades.

G

[Bob Stinger]

I have seen them operating at Kirkbride, gyros that is not sure which ones so if you wanted a go give them a ring.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Probably the best way to determine the split within the gyroplane community would be to read the gyro forum in the USA.

www.rotaryforum.com/index.php

It will not take long to understand that even though there are many gyroplane kit manufacturers there is more bitterness and outright venom created in the RAF discussions than all other machines combined, in fact there is no other real problem except the arguments between the pro RAF and anti RAF factions.

One of the most interesting methods that the pro RAF group use to discredit the anti RAF group is to lable them as "Bashers" which is the American PC method to silence anyone who disagrees with group think with no other method to argue the point. "Basher" is the gyroplane equivilant of "Racist", "Homophopic" , "Bigot" etc. You just have to wonder if the gyroplane community will ever evolve and join the rest of aviation and accept physics and aerodynamics the same as the rest of aviation.

If you are into the soap opera kind of entertainment with an aviation flavour read the ongoing circus on that forum and it will not take long to identify the actors in the play...enjoy.. :ok:

Chuck E.

['India-Mike]

My post comes with a health warning- I'm not a gyro pilot, but I've been involved in gyroplane research in the UK since '93. I am a private pilot though, and I've a fair bit of helicopter experimental flying as a flight test observer behind me. So here goes (there's going to be another health warning at the end - read on!)

The RAF 2000 looks like a fine piece of mechanical engineering. The general finish of the kit, and the completed aircraft, is of a very high standard. The one I flew (G-BXDD) was very nice, comfortable and pretty smooth as well - not always easy with an underslung-type two-bladed teetering rotor. BCAR Section T (the UK design standard) allows up to 600kg aircraft, and the RAF 2000 weighs in with 2 big blokes certainly above 500kg, so it's probably one of the beefiest gyros in the UK. Performance I thought however was pretty good, with excellent rate of climb (by typical SEP fixed-wing standards) performance, and a good turn of speed as well. Comfort is excellent (it is enclosed, after all). It's some time since I've had any correspondence with the UK importer, but I remember him as a real enthusiast and I've heard that he provides excellent support as well.

However, the c.g. is VERY low, and if you buy into the research I've been involved with, this is not good for stability and hence handling qualities. For example, research has recommended that the c.g. is a normal distance no more than 2 inches above or below the propeller thrust line, with the lower limit more critical for dynamic stability - the RAF 2000 G-BXDD, depending on loading, had a c.g. anything between 5 and 11 inches below the propeller thrust line. I've been given the controls of a Lynx, Puma, Gazelle, Wessex (all stabs out) and the R22 - with the exception of the Lynx the RAF 2000 was by far the most difficult to fly of all these rotorcraft. Yet its safety record in the UK is I would suggest, excellent - they've been around for a while (early '90's); there are, by gyro standards, a fair number on the UK register (38); and there have been 2 fatalities in a single accident. I know one could argue that this is statistically insignificant but by UK gyro standards this is very good.

One could say therefore that they're very safe, but with poor handling qualities. This paradox was explained to me by a CAA acquaintance as 'equivalent safety' ie safety obtained by means other than design - in this case training. You learn on your own machine, and you stick with it once you qualify. That's testament to the training quality as well - surely very good to excellent.

The CAA-funded research I've been involved with has come in for a fair amount of stick from a pretty big chunk of the UK gyro community, so you can take or leave what I say. However the CAA, independently of me, recently engaged in comparative flight trials of 5 Bensen-type gyros (as a consequence of an AAIB recommendation). One met the 2 inch limit, and it was the only one that passed the Section T dynamic stability tests. As a consequence, Bensen derivatives in the UK (and I don't think I'm giving anything away here) will become the subject of an MPD (mandatory permit directive) as a consequence of this. My CAA contacts also tell me that 2 RAF 2000's will shortly be assessed in the same way, as part of the same activity - flight tests and c.g. determination. Will an MPD result? I don't know.

And now the final health warning - don't cross RAF. I did, and I thought I would end up in court. My report on G-BXDD for its then-owner somehow found its way into the public domain. I was so rattled by RAF that I sought legal advice from my employer who was ready to support me, but the whole thing fizzled out. For a sensitive soul such as myself, it was most upsetting.....

Apologies for a rather long post. Hope you find it useful.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

India MIke :

You said :

"" And now the final health warning - don't cross RAF. I did, and I thought I would end up in court. """

My report on G-BXDD for its then-owner somehow found its way into the public domain. I was so rattled by RAF that I sought legal advice from my employer who was ready to support me, but the whole thing fizzled out. For a sensitive soul such as myself, it was most upsetting.....


............................................

Because I do not wish to cause any grief for Danny and Pprune I will not post as much as I would like to about the business practices of RAF and their propensity to threaten legal action against anyone who they see as a threat to their marketing practices.

Suffice to say I also have been the lawsuit threat route with RAF and fortunately for me and unfortunately for RAF the truth will usually prevail in any court action concerning such issues....

But you are correct unless you can really back up any allegations or statements be very, very careful with these weasels.

One more suggestion, any aircraft that is unstable to the extent that an RAF 2000 is and has the ability to kill you in a heartbeat is in my opinion not safe no matter how many hours you get trained in it....period.

And yes, I did refeer to them as "weasels" it is not a tying error, because that is my personal opinion of them having worked with them and being involved in trying to set up a training program for RAF in 1991 / 92.

Chuck E.

[pjb]

G'day Chuck E.

How is the battle? Mine is a little tough at the moment as you probably know, BUT my new project is now on the go at 100%.

The best thing that could have happened!!!! I just miss the folding stuff. I told my wife to get a second job and nearly wore the rolling pin!!!!!

Posters, I have almost 3000 hours in Rafs and my Raf derivitives. I had around 2000 hours before I got my Raf in 1997, and was the Oz agent. That 2000 previous gyro hours probably saved my life. The Raf sales pitch and brouchure is a bunch of lies. The machine is downright dangerous for a beginner. Luckily on the UK you have a large number of dual hours required for a pvt licence and I believe that this is the only reason that the fatality rate in the UK is behind the rest of the world.

There was one US Raf agent who had his gyroplane rating withdrawn by the FAA because he had something like 4 fatalities of people that he trained without a h/stab. He told them not to fly in winds above about 5 kts, but they did and died. Geez in a correctly set up gyroplane a newly licenced pilot can fly in winds of up to 20 kts during their first few hours.

A Raf is not a correctly set up gyroplane, and relies entirely on pilot skill to stay alive. Anyone interested in the modifications that I have tested to make a Raf stable can email me privately. I conducted 2 years of stability testing which I reported to the US sport gyroplane stability committee. Stewart Houston is aware of my involement with the Raf stability issues. It was great fun to take a dog of a machine and turn it into something that is very user friendly. It is just as easy to buiold a gyroplane correctly as it is to build one incorrectly. The challenge is to know the difference!!!!!

Anyway enough for the first post. I feel so sorry for you people in the UK. Not to be able to improve a defective aiecraft is rediculous, but you all know that.

Paul. :)

[Genghis the Engineer]

Anyway enough for the first post. I feel so sorry for you people in the UK. Not to be able to improve a defective aiecraft is rediculous, but you all know that.

Oh you can, and we do regularly - for permit aircraft anyway (which all Gyros are). The problem is that anything you do has to have an engineering justification before you're allowed, which tends to put people off - it shouldn't.

G