RAF2000 - anyone flown one ?
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I flew one for a sales demo at the EAA fly in
at Oshkosh Wisconsin, USA last year. They are really small, great for short (very) field TO/Landings. But a little skitish for conversion from a fixed wing. I found it easy to fly, but you really got to watch what your doing as it's very easy to start a pilot induced oscillation (sp?)
Oh, and the demo pilot showed me how to do a "darn near hover".
I thought they were pretty cool, but I couldn't buy one as all my capital is tied up in flight training
at Oshkosh Wisconsin, USA last year. They are really small, great for short (very) field TO/Landings. But a little skitish for conversion from a fixed wing. I found it easy to fly, but you really got to watch what your doing as it's very easy to start a pilot induced oscillation (sp?)
Oh, and the demo pilot showed me how to do a "darn near hover".
I thought they were pretty cool, but I couldn't buy one as all my capital is tied up in flight training
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That's the one - I first saw one of these a couple of years ago and fancied having a go at it. I've now got a bit of spare dosh and am giving it seriuos thought. The article in Todays Pilot ( not flyer as I wrote before) said that gyrocopter training can be done at Henstridge or Carlisle. Anyone got any experience ??
Also, does anyone know of a distributor for the RAF2000 in the UK ?
[This message has been edited by gijoe (edited 22 May 2001).]
Also, does anyone know of a distributor for the RAF2000 in the UK ?
[This message has been edited by gijoe (edited 22 May 2001).]
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I first got interested in the RAF 2000 about a year ago, as a cheaper substitute for a helicopter. At the time, the only place where you could do a trial lesson in the RAF 2000 was at Carlisle. I went up there, but it had some mechanical problem and we were only able to do short hops along the runway at about 30 feet. Not enough to tell you much, but great fun, very skittish (more even than an R22) and if you're big or tall don't bother, as they're very very small. I eventually decided I wouldn't trust anything with that many moving parts to either my own or anyone else's selfbuild skills, and stuck with helos and bankruptcy by rotation. There is a guy in Devon who imports and distributes them, and I've since heard he will bring one to almost any airfield for a demo/trial flight if he might have a sale. He advertises in Flyer and/or Pilot. There are seven gyro instructors in the country, and most of them can teach you to fly your own RAF 2000, even if they don't have one themselves. There's quite a lot of other stuff about gyros on the Internet, but I can't remember details; do a search and it's easy to find. Good luck; tell me what it's like if you do fly one properly; I'm still kind of interested.
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Whirly
To fly is human, to hover, divine.
[This message has been edited by Whirlybird (edited 22 May 2001).]
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Whirly
To fly is human, to hover, divine.
[This message has been edited by Whirlybird (edited 22 May 2001).]
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gijoe,
No idea really, but people do say it's difficult to fly, at least compared to other gyros. That may not be saying all that much, as the others are pretty easy - I had a trial flight in another one while I was in Carlisle and was doing almost everything but taking off (bit complicated, can't remember why) within an hour, and I'm a slow learner. When you mention the RAF 2000, people mutter darkly about negative G and a tendency to get into uncontrollable oscillations! Having said that, people do fly them, for quite long distances. There's quite a good article in an issue of Flyer a bit back, can't remember the date, and Richard Boswell seemed to think they were pretty easy to fly. But he does have thousands and thousands of hours, both f/w and rotary.
All this is making me want to have another try myself...
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Whirly
To fly is human, to hover, divine.
No idea really, but people do say it's difficult to fly, at least compared to other gyros. That may not be saying all that much, as the others are pretty easy - I had a trial flight in another one while I was in Carlisle and was doing almost everything but taking off (bit complicated, can't remember why) within an hour, and I'm a slow learner. When you mention the RAF 2000, people mutter darkly about negative G and a tendency to get into uncontrollable oscillations! Having said that, people do fly them, for quite long distances. There's quite a good article in an issue of Flyer a bit back, can't remember the date, and Richard Boswell seemed to think they were pretty easy to fly. But he does have thousands and thousands of hours, both f/w and rotary.
All this is making me want to have another try myself...
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Whirly
To fly is human, to hover, divine.
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If you want a ride in a Gyro as a passenger, best do it before the end of the month (when liability insurance becomes compulsory) as passenger liability cover is difficult to find for this class of aircraft.
a guy in the same aircraft group as me built one a couple of years ago (which won some class at the PFA Rally), and has since become a gyrocopter instructor. He can be contacted via
[email protected]
good luck
Skua
[email protected]
good luck
Skua
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Read the AAIB reports before commiting yourself to an RAF2000.
There was a fatal near where I live and the machine had recently won Best Built Gyro at their annual show. It was being flown by a 2000 hour instructor. Instructor and owner both killed. Turbulence meant the rotor hit the tailplane. The loss of either part would have been a serious problem.
Approx 5% of the total fleet end up in the hangar at Farnborough in any one year. Almost all are fatal.
Now where are my pipe and slippers?
There was a fatal near where I live and the machine had recently won Best Built Gyro at their annual show. It was being flown by a 2000 hour instructor. Instructor and owner both killed. Turbulence meant the rotor hit the tailplane. The loss of either part would have been a serious problem.
Approx 5% of the total fleet end up in the hangar at Farnborough in any one year. Almost all are fatal.
Now where are my pipe and slippers?
The Original Whirly
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Bar shaker,
2000 hr instructor on what? All on gyroplanes? If not, he/she may not have been aware of the likelihood of negative g in turbulence, and the dangers of it for any aircraft, helicopter or gyroplane, with a teetering rotor head.
There have definitely been a lot of gyro accidents recently, but I'm not sure that this is the fault of the machines. There aren't many instructors or gyro pilots, so once you learn, you can be fairly much on your own. Not good for a low hours pilot of any machine.
I gather that the RAF2000 has some definite stability problems. However, nothing I've heard suggests that it isn't safe if flown within its limitations. So let's not jump to too many conclusions here.
2000 hr instructor on what? All on gyroplanes? If not, he/she may not have been aware of the likelihood of negative g in turbulence, and the dangers of it for any aircraft, helicopter or gyroplane, with a teetering rotor head.
There have definitely been a lot of gyro accidents recently, but I'm not sure that this is the fault of the machines. There aren't many instructors or gyro pilots, so once you learn, you can be fairly much on your own. Not good for a low hours pilot of any machine.
I gather that the RAF2000 has some definite stability problems. However, nothing I've heard suggests that it isn't safe if flown within its limitations. So let's not jump to too many conclusions here.
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I agree with barshaker. I watch one crash from 10ft on take-off with a sudden nose down pitch for no reason we could find. Fortunately the very experienced instructor and owner/student (not solo after about 70 hrs) had minor injuries only due to the low altitude. I would avoid it. This of course in only my opinion.
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There's always been mistrust of gyro's ever since PeeWee Judge's (probably spelt wrong ... so sorry) accident years ago. Once something gets a reputation it takes some shifting. Ken Wallis seems to have managed all these years ok!
If I had the money ... I'd learn to fly one!
SS
If I had the money ... I'd learn to fly one!
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Ken Wallis seems to have managed all these years ok!
Not a pretty sight being flung around like a rag doll. Of course he does have the distinction of being probably the most capable gyro pilot in the UK.
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RAF2000
Thanks very much for all your comments guys.
Still thinking about buying this machine.
Please keep the posts comming.
Does anyone have anything good to say about the RAF2000 or is it just complete negativity all round?
If it works then it seems to suite my purpose.
Cheers
Still thinking about buying this machine.
Please keep the posts comming.
Does anyone have anything good to say about the RAF2000 or is it just complete negativity all round?
If it works then it seems to suite my purpose.
Cheers
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" Did anyone actually get round to buying/operating/training on the RAF2000.
I would be interested to hear your comments with regards to.
Cheers and thanks again. "
........................................
Roxy:
I can answer your question.
Stay as far away from a RAF 2000 as you can.
The machine is a very poorly designed gyro, built by backyard mechanics.
The reason for the insatbility is due to a very high thrustline in relation to its vertical center of gravity, resulting in the risk of a power pushover departure from controlled flight should certain factors such as PIO or turbulence upset its pitch attitude in flight...the lower the airspeed and the higher the power setting the quicker the bunt will occur.
Yes, I own one...no I will never fly it unless I make major changes..
Do I understand the subject? I think I have a fair grasp of the subject.
The name of that company is "Rotary Airforce "Marketing "
The only word that you should study is "Marketing" when looking at that product.
In most of the world you can add a horizontal stabalizer to an RAF, this is only a bandaid as far as fixing the pitch instability in a factory RAF, however the last I checked your CAA will not allow any changes to the machine and you must fly it as is...even if it kills you.
Hopefully that helps to clear up some of your concerns?
Chuck Ellsworth
I would be interested to hear your comments with regards to.
Cheers and thanks again. "
........................................
Roxy:
I can answer your question.
Stay as far away from a RAF 2000 as you can.
The machine is a very poorly designed gyro, built by backyard mechanics.
The reason for the insatbility is due to a very high thrustline in relation to its vertical center of gravity, resulting in the risk of a power pushover departure from controlled flight should certain factors such as PIO or turbulence upset its pitch attitude in flight...the lower the airspeed and the higher the power setting the quicker the bunt will occur.
Yes, I own one...no I will never fly it unless I make major changes..
Do I understand the subject? I think I have a fair grasp of the subject.
The name of that company is "Rotary Airforce "Marketing "
The only word that you should study is "Marketing" when looking at that product.
In most of the world you can add a horizontal stabalizer to an RAF, this is only a bandaid as far as fixing the pitch instability in a factory RAF, however the last I checked your CAA will not allow any changes to the machine and you must fly it as is...even if it kills you.
Hopefully that helps to clear up some of your concerns?
Chuck Ellsworth
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AAIB report
Roxy, Chuck is one of the most experienced and adventurous pilots on this board. If he owns one and won't fly it, keep your money in your pocket.
Would that purpose be to meet your maker shortly, in a sudden, unexpected way?
Roxy, Chuck is one of the most experienced and adventurous pilots on this board. If he owns one and won't fly it, keep your money in your pocket.
If it works then it seems to suite my purpose.
The Original Whirly
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Chuck,
Thanks for that. I knew it had stability problems, but I didn't know why.
Roxy,
I don't know specifically what your "purpose" is, but did you know there's a new two-seater gyro around, hopefully about to be OK'd (or whatever the official word is) by the CAA in a couple of months. It's called the ELA or ETA; can't remember which. It looks a lot like the VPM, but is half the price - about £24,000. Roger Savage Gyroplanes up at Carlisle has one; I saw it and sat in it at the London Air Show, and as far as I can tell it seems like a nice little machine. And it's probably safer than the RAF2000; I know Roger Savage isn't too keen on those - or wasn't when I went up there a few years ago. Might be worth looking into.
Thanks for that. I knew it had stability problems, but I didn't know why.
Roxy,
I don't know specifically what your "purpose" is, but did you know there's a new two-seater gyro around, hopefully about to be OK'd (or whatever the official word is) by the CAA in a couple of months. It's called the ELA or ETA; can't remember which. It looks a lot like the VPM, but is half the price - about £24,000. Roger Savage Gyroplanes up at Carlisle has one; I saw it and sat in it at the London Air Show, and as far as I can tell it seems like a nice little machine. And it's probably safer than the RAF2000; I know Roger Savage isn't too keen on those - or wasn't when I went up there a few years ago. Might be worth looking into.
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Brilliant machine to fly, if a little highly strung ! I confess to a few sixpence half a crown moments though !
I never felt quite at ease in a Gyroplane - all those aerodynamic formulae just stacking up against the logic of flying a stubby little aeroplane with a freely rotating main rotor which is susceptible to -ve g and a type of "mast bumping" ??? There's a lot of turbulence about and it focuses the mind in any Gyro.
I never felt quite at ease in a Gyroplane - all those aerodynamic formulae just stacking up against the logic of flying a stubby little aeroplane with a freely rotating main rotor which is susceptible to -ve g and a type of "mast bumping" ??? There's a lot of turbulence about and it focuses the mind in any Gyro.