IFR OCAS north to south

[tmmorris]

Sorry, posted this on another thread but rather OT so perhaps it might be better as a new thread...

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I'm planning a flight from Benson to Carlisle in October and wondering if it can be done at all IFR OCAS (as I'm only IMC rated). If not and it has to be VFR then it greatly reduces the chances of making the trip at that time of year and I really don't want to drive all that way.

There seem to be a number of problems...

1. routing - thinking of DTY - TNT (probably with a dogleg to avoid some of East Midlands though they've been fine for transit before) - POL - direct. Alternative would be DTY - GAM - POL - dct, or even SWB - west over the sea (barmy to spend so much time over water unnecessarily, though).

2. VOR coverage. I'll have GPS as backup but don't have BRNAV GPS so I need to calculate whether I will pick up TLA before I lose POL, for example (need to get the books out as I've not done that sort of calculation since the IMCR!). There's a lot of flight over the Lakes.

3. clearances - not had any problems with getting class D clearances VFR before but for example, what are the chances of getting a clearance IFR TNT - POL at MSA of 3400ft? It's through the corner of the Manchester class D CTR which tops out at 3500 (where there is class A).

4. alternate will probably have to be Newcastle - where I gather the landing/handling is a bit painful...

5. flight plan - probably WILL file this due to the amount of time spent over inhospitable terrain.

Anyone done this IFR OCAS? It's making me think wistfully of getting an IR...

Tim

(edited to add - and all this depends on the freezing level anyway... MSA over the lakes will be up to 3700...)

[Johnm]

Should be straight forward.

OCAS or Class D both of which are fine with IMCR would imply routing from Benson across to Shawbury and then through the Manchester low level corridor or via the WAL VOR courtesy of Liverpool. Then Direct Carlisle.

Use the GPS as primary nav and VOR/DME, NDB and a bit of dead reckoning as back up.

That's what I do!

[almost professional]

Should not be problem getting IFR transit of East Midlands airspace DTY/TNT providing you are prepared to be flexible with Level/Routing-most times can get transits through OK but route does conflict with SID tracks from RWY27 and final turn to ILS on 09
We quite often put transits to Manch TNT/POL at that level so be suprised if major problem

[tmmorris]

Thanks both, useful to know. Surely the Manchester LLC can't be negotiated IFR, though? I see the MEF for that square on the half-mil is 1100 but adding 300ft for the mythical uncharted mast takes me to 1400 for the MSA?

Or is it just that I can request IFR transit through the CTR but at a higher level (e.g. 1400)?

I must admit I last went through the LLC on my GFT in 2001 and we were definitely VFR then!

Tim

[oversteer]

Surely it's south to north :)

[Johnm]

No you couldn't get through the LLR IFR you'd need to get a transit for that. I assumed that if the cloud base was that low you wouldn't be going!

[fisbangwollop]

Once north of Manchester Warton Radar will give you a Traffic Service towards Carlisle.

[tmmorris]

Johnm

Probably not - I suppose that if the cloudbase is say 1500 then I could descend north of SWB to MSA and then lower for the LLC before climbing again once through it.

Are Liverpool usually happy with a routing via WAL?

Normal minima for me would be cloudbase 1000ft agl at destination (Carlisle) which is 1200ft AMSL. However I need to think about whether that is sensible single engined over the Lakes...

Tim

(PS and yes, I realised after I'd posted that it was south to north though I plan to come back again!)

[IO540]

To be brutally honest I would just fly it using a GPS, and not worry about VORs too much as there aren't many about and when flying below CAS one is often out of reception range.

I always try to route on VORs and NDBs but often it doesn't make sense, and then I route via airway intersections because they are in the GPS database and that makes it easy. Never use user waypoints := (unless totally unavoidable and in 9 years of flying I have had to only do it once, for a little airfield in Spain).

Stay talking to London Information. They have radar (but are not allowed to indicate such) and will give you a squawk, and can see you, so if you get into major trouble you can tell them, etc.

[fisbangwollop]

Stay talking to London Information. They have radar (but are not allowed to indicate such)

No they don't!!! They have a device that uses derived radar information but this is only to be used in an attempt to avoid airspace infringements. The squak is allocated as with my operation at Scottish to show all other radar units that the aircraft is recieving a service from London/Scottish info!!

[IO540]

They have a device that uses derived radar information but this is only to be used in an attempt to avoid airspace infringements.

It might be useful to know what that "device" is.

[Contacttower]

It might be useful to know what that "device" is.

When I visited Swanwick two years ago London Info had a radar monitor positioned off to the side of the desk that the radio operator sat at, it showed the whole of the UK though so it would be difficult to find an individual aircraft on it. The operator would occassionally refer to it if he suspected an aircraft might be somewhere it shouldn't be, although obviously if an infringement was suspected it would quickly be refered to the relevant radar unit. Of course we all know there is no radar service and any identification of the aircraft is purely informal.

[IO540]

My understanding (which may be incorrect) has been that London Info have a radar screen which shows only traffic with their 7xxx squawks.

This helps them stop CAS busts.

It ought to also enable them to offer some assistance in an emergency situation - better than just listening without having a clue where somebody is.

I could see why this was done: the people are not radar qualified ATCOs, or possibly not ATCOs at all, so they cannot be given the job of an officially radar qualified person. Those are the rules...

But in the context of this thread which is a flight under own navigation, I cannot see a problem doing the whole lot with the radio tuned to London Information.

If I was doing it myself, I would do it with a listening watch only, and calling up known radar services along the way.

The "problem" with actually talking to London Info used to be that they would keep asking for estimates to such and such a waypoint, which was time consuming for a pilot who was navigating by radio (GPS/VOR etc, where you are getting continuous lateral guidance and thus have no need for managing ETAs to waypoints). With a decent GPS, this is not an issue because you see, next to each waypoint, the ETA, and you can just instantly read it off.

I don't know whether London Info still do this; it would seem quite funny if they had to "cover up" their traffic visibility by asking traffic where it is :)

My recent experience of speaking to London Info is that they don't do that anymore, but my experience is limited to the brief times during flying back to the UK from say France, where one got a handover to London Info instead of London Control, but since one is descending anyway this doesn't matter. To me, the lack of queries together with a well timed instruction to descend below FL075, etc, indicated they could see exactly where I was, but of course nothing was ever spoken on the radio to suggest that.

[Contacttower]

My understanding (which may be incorrect) has been that London Info have a radar screen which shows only traffic with their 7xxx squawks.

I can't remember exactly whether there was other traffic shown or not, I suspect not since if it wasn't filtered the amount of traffic would mean it almost impossible to read.

I think in general Scottish Info are more keen on ETAs than London.

[fisbangwollop]

I think in general Scottish Info are more keen on ETAs than London.

At times we do ask for an estimate for a waypoint or destination ( after all if you have planned your flight correctly you should have half an idea of that ) but 9 times out of 10 I work one out my self with my piece of string and wizzwheel......no nice FID for us boys at Scottish like our London counterparts!! :cool::cool::cool:

[dont overfil]

I find routing up and down to the east of the class A airspace when IFR is preferable as you can usually get a radar service all the way even at weekends and it can be done at a sensible level above cloud. Class D clearances never seem to be a problem. I stay clear of class A. I would go CFD GAM then direct from about 30miles north of GAM.
The west is of course the more direct. SWB WAL but it's a pain to have to decend below class A at Liverpool and I'm not sure how accomodating Birmingham would be if you asked for a radar service. I would never attempt the Manchester low level corridor IFR. Going by WAL you would still be in gliding distance from land.
Also 60% of the time the weather is better in the east.
DO.

[IO540]

I once planned to fly s. coast to Aberdeen, VFR, along the east coast, and the route was dead easy. On a good day one might get some good pics, too.

It is an all-GPS job though; very few VORs down there. But most flying is 100% GPS these days ;)

(getting my coat now before "DFC" gets here, followed by Mr Guppy and his 7.62 bullet hole ridden aircraft) :) :)

[neutron]

IO540...you want to get one of those KNS80 jobs. :ok:..coming back into their own again with NATS planning to remove most of the VORs :ugh:!

[dont overfil]

I suppose CPT 340 degrees 260 miles would be OK for the first 50 miles of the trip.
DO.

[fisbangwollop]

Neutron...you want to get one of those KNS80 jobs.

Ah so thats why your nav and estimates soooo accurate, and here's me thinking you used a chinagraph pencil and a tatty old chart!!:cool::cool:

[IO540]

you want to get one of those KNS80 jobs. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif..coming back into their own again with NATS planning to remove most of the VORs

I think you got that wrong... a KNS80 needs to be in reception range of a VOR and a co-located DME to work at all.

Today, it is a useless pointless box, worthwhile only as a "legal box" to carry in some old plane as a "BRNAV certified" installation, for IFR at FL095+, while you actually navigate using a handheld GPS :)

There is a real issue in the UK (and everywhere else in Europe) navigating low-level using VOR/DME, due to navaid coverage. GPS is the only game in town.. fortunately it is exceedingly reliable, and far more reliable than VOR.

I have a KN-72 VOR box which has a wonderful fault in it, whereby the deviation bar shows a wrong deviation long before the invalid flag pops into view. That kind of fault, which every instructor tells ya "cannot happen" would 100% sure kill somebody if they were flying a VOR approach in the "wrong" place.

VOR/DME is good as a backup for GPS - when you can get reception.

[Johnm]

To go back to the original question here's how I've actually flown the trip ( or close to it since I didn't start from Benson) with a cloud base around 1500AMSL.

Take off, climb to 3000ft or above depending on cloud tops and CAS. Use GPS as primary NAV with other aids as back up. Get a traffic service from BRIZE head for intersection NANTI at the start of the LLC. (Use the WHI NDB if you prefer)

Transfer to Shawbury from Brize (if on a TS IFR they'll probably hand you over anyway) . There is a VOR/DME there if you want it.

On approach to Nanti descend to 1200 ft for the LLC and assuming you break cloud as planned around 1500ft drop Shawbury and use the listening squawk for Manchester and monitor their frequency.

Track to the end of the corridor and climb back up to the base of CAS and then higher as CAS gets further above. Squawk 7000 and call Warton for TS IFR

Trundle along towards Carlisle using GPS again. You'll probably want to drop Warton and go to Scottish Info about 3/4 way to Carlisle as you'll lose contact with Warton close to Carlisle. Fly their NDB procedure if cloud base warrants it.

If cloud base too low for LLC (Manchester ATIS will give a good clue) then call Liverpool for IFR transit via WAL and then go back to the DCT Carlisle route when clear of Liverpool's airspace.

[dont overfil]

I've never managed to raise Shawbury at the weekend, but you might get Hawarden.
Thats why I prefer the east as the once I called Birmingham for a service they were obviously too busy to help.
DO.

[tmmorris]

Thanks Johnm, that's exactly what I needed to know - it can be done and has been! The other discussions were ... interesting (I've used the KNS80 in the past and found it, err, fascinating :-)).

I would give the trip no more than 50:50 anyway - I need to be able to fly up on a Saturday am and have a decent chance of getting back on the Sunday so I am at work on the Monday - so the forecast needs to be pretty good for the Sunday if I am to risk it. (OK, I wouldn't cry too many tears if I missed work on the Monday, but my employer might!)

Tim

[mrmum]

Tim,

I've done quite a lot IFR flights in and out of Carlisle to/from various places in the South, avoiding airways/class A. Have come to the conclusion that East side of the country is best.

West side is fine if you're VFR, never had any issues getting a clearance through Liverpool CAS and have done the LLR a few times, have tried several times, on different days of the week, at various times, but always got "sorry but no" from Manchester.

My preferred routing has evolved into something like CL to overhead Leeming, avoids Warcop DA, LARS off Newcastle/Durham/Leeming, then straight over the Vale of York MATZs, seamless LARS handovers until Doncaster, who they seem unable to establish a telephone link with, then Gamston DCT to wherever you like. I appreciate that routing this side of the country can be a little longer, but I think it's simpler and more predictable. Also, assuming we have the prevailing westerly wind, it'll generally be less cloudy that side of the hills, I've found you can usually be VMC on top without much trouble.

Tend to avoid trying to get an LBA clearance as due to their runway alignment (14/32) a transit to/from Carlisle, has you loitering on the approach/climbout, which obviously isn't top of an ATCOs wish list!

You should also be aware that currently Carlisle is A/G radio at weekends, not ATC, due to lack of controllers, a situation which could easily still prevail in October.

[dont overfil]

Enjoy your trip but if you're going VFR ok, If you're going IFR ok, But don't try to mix them and end up scud running.
DO.

[Johnm]

You should also be aware that currently Carlisle is A/G radio at weekends, not ATC, due to lack of controllers, a situation which could easily still prevail in October.

Good point my last trip to Scotland proved more difficult than planned because I wanted refuel at Carlisle and had to time my arrival for the reopening of the airport after the ATCO's lunch break!

[fisbangwollop]

Q) Egtt/qfaah/iv/nbo/a/000/999/5456n00249w005
B) From: 10/08/25 08:00c) To: 10/08/27 17:30
E) Ad Hr Aug 25, 26 And 27, 0830-1100, 1200-1400 And 1430-1630 L4057/10
Q) Egtt/qstlt/iv/nbo/a/000/999/5456n00249w005
B) From: 10/08/28 08:00c) To: 10/08/29 17:30
E) Atc Not Avbl, Air/ground Ser And Visual Apch Only.
Locator Cl And Dme Co Ch44x Not Avbl. L3589/10

[tmmorris]

Thanks all, interesting that Carlisle is VFR only at weekends which could kybosh the trip anyway!

Points noted about routing - will look again at the eastern route. I've flown into Leeming before and did it IFR east of East Midlands with no problems with clearances, via GAM. That was when Finningley was dormant, though.

Tim

[flightlevel1985]

"Thanks all, interesting that Carlisle is VFR only at weekends which could kybosh the trip anyway!"

From past experience, you could always be in contact with Carlisle to judge the traffic and positions of aircraft and then use the 360 radial from DCS VOR and descend to break cloud over the flat ground up there. As long as the bases are above circuit height, you would then be ok to approach visually.

(This post might open a can of worms with the posse of people against cloud breaks ;))

[tmmorris]

(This post might open a can of worms with the posse of people against cloud breaks )


Pleeeeeeeeeease! No!

(but thanks, not a bad idea...)

Tim