Yet more FISO questions

[CraigyD]

Hi all, first post in this section of the forum.

Looking for a change of job at the moment and have been reading through old posts about how to become a FISO and I am really quite interested. The only questions I have not found answers to are:

Can you earn a living being a FISO?

Are you generally paid during training (practical training I mean)?

and

Assuming you pass the exams, do you just call around to airfields with a hope one might say "yer, come along and we'll train you!"?

Much appreciated!

Craigyd

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

I'm sure some FISOs will respond. In the meantime...

Depends on how much you need to live. FISOs are paid, but not a fortune.

I do not know about pay arrangements during training.

In response to your last, yes - that's about it... and watch the adverts.

Presumably you are fully familiar with this:

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP427.PDF

[CraigyD]

HD,

Thanks for your reply. I have had a brisk read through some of the docs to see whats involved, I really think I will enjoy the job.

I currently work as cabin crew so I am used to not earning a fortune! Oh, guess I should mention I hold a PPL, working (very slowly indeed) towards CPL at the moment.

Do vancancies arise that often do you know?

Craigyd

[Foxy Loxy]

CraigyD,

You post your location as London.
You could try Fairoaks, Denham and Elstree as a start, see if they have anything going.

[chevvron]

I would suggest you take the exams first as you are unlikely to get sponsorship from an airfield. Pay varies from airfield to airfield; some pay by the day others by the hour. When fully certificated ie when you pass a competency test at an airfield, £10 - £12/hour is roughly the rate for a 40 hour week. After passing the exams, training will be a minimum of 40 hours of which only 4 hours/day can be counted towards MER (minimum experience requirement) before you can take a competency test at which a CAA Examiner may or may not attend - most airfields get their own local examiner approved by the CAA.

[chevvron]

At the airfield where I work, all the FISO's have or have held pilot's licences although it's not a pre-requisite; I had a PPL and became a FISO when I retired as an ATCO.
Blackbushe is another possibility and if you're prepared to travel (don't know where you live in London) maybe Rochester.

[Dannyboyblue]

Pay at the moment is not fantastic but it keeps you in the aviation environment, if your doing your cpl's it will help a fair bit with getting a job. Every FISO i have worked with who had a cpl/atpl have got flying work from being in the tower.

Pay during training is becoming a rare thing now. Some small airfields (certainly the one i work at) require the commitment of working for free during your training. Pretty crap deal to be honest but if your confident of being able to pass then you get a job out of it in the end.

The other thing is that for a first validation it will normall take around 70-80 hours of training. 40 is the minimum but not the norm unless you are experienced.

Definately do the writtens first under your own steam, i believe they are now held 4 times a year at Gatwick, not sure on the cost but you will only need to take 2 of the 4 as you hold a PPL.

DBB

[chevvron]

I was paid during training.
When you pass the written exams, why not apply for an A/G Certificate of Competency. It's another string to your bow, it's free, and it means if you're considered suitable, the holder of the airport radio licence can allow you to operate solo using A/G phraseology before you validate as a FISO, plus they're unlikely to expect you to take on that responsibility without paying you. The only drawback is you can't count A/G time towards the MER for FISO.

[CraigyD]

Thanks guys, this is all really useful information!

I have downloaded copies of the training manual and will work through them.

The closest fields to me (both towered) are Red Hill and Biggin Hill, to give you an idea of where I am. I am prepared to travel if needs be ( I will have to do some anyway. I would also consider relocating).

I will look into the A/G certificate of competency as well.

Again, thanks everyone!

Craigyd

[chevvron]

Redhill and Biggin are both ATC not FISO, but that puts you in a position where Rochester might be feasible.

[Squadgy]

When you pass the written exams, why not apply for an A/G Certificate of Competency. It's another string to your bow, it's free, and it means if you're considered suitable, the holder of the airport radio licence can allow you to operate solo using A/G phraseology before you validate as a FISO, plus they're unlikely to expect you to take on that responsibility without paying you. The only drawback is you can't count A/G time towards the MER for FISO.

An airfield which is published in the AIP as being FIS can't just revert to A/G without issuing a NOTAM to that effect. Some airfields are published as being able to offer both services, however I understand CAA SRG are trying to get away from this and ensure a consistent level of service is porvided.

[Talkdownman]

Aerodrome FIS is required for those aircraft operations which need to comply with The Air Navigation (General) Regulations Section 13 (Aeroplanes flying for the purpose of public transport of passengers—aerodrome facilities for approach to landing and landing). If the aerodrome does not enjoy such continuous custom why should CAA SRG insist upon a consistent level of service which could have commercial implications?

[chevvron]

Squadgy: ever considered level of cover required outside normal aerodrome hours for non public transport? If no FISO is available, an A/G Operator might be the alternative.

[Talkdownman]

AIP entry for base states 'ATIS service is subject to downgrade to A/G at short notice'. With Aerodrome Operator duties of care applicable in either case there is not much difference between the services. Traffic information is passed both under FIS and A/G in the interest of Rule 45 compliance to enable flight to be conducted safely within the zone, and a close eye is kept by the Aerodrome Operator on runway occupancy in the interest of customer service obligations, so there ain't much difference...apart from staff costs. Aerodrome Operators wouldn't like it if CAA SRG insisted upon a consistent type of service for no apparent reason. At base only a very small number of movements actually legally require FIS so the service is, most of the time, already over and above what is legally required. It would seem that remuneration for FISOs in the London area is generally about one and a half times the National Minimum Wage.

[CraigyD]

9 FLIGHT INFORMATION SERVICE OFFICERS
9.1 Licensing of FISOs
a) On application for the grant of a FISO Licence, the applicant shall pay a charge of
£100, and for any written examination required for the above, the applicant shall
pay a charge of £113.
b) Upon application for the naming of a place, or any additional place, in a FISO
Licence, the applicant shall pay a charge of £66, and for any examination
conducted by the CAA for that purpose, the applicant shall pay a charge of £620.
9.2 Authorisation as an examiner for validity examinations
On application for appointment as an examiner authorised to conduct examinations for
the FISO Licence, the applicant shall pay a charge of £620.

:sad: Expensive! Have you guys had to pay the £620 charge or have your generous new employers forked out the cost for you?

Edit again. Anyone thinking of sitting the exams at Gatwick on Thursday 28th October?

[Glamdring]

CraigyD: Any particular reason for not wanting to send an application in to NATS?

[CraigyD]

CraigyD: Any particular reason for not wanting to send an application in to NATS?

Does there need to be one?............

[eastern wiseguy]

Craigyd Why not raise your ambitions and try the ATCO route?. You WILL get paid during training and you WILL have a job at the end of it.

[Glamdring]

Does there need to be one?............

Not at all. With your interest in being a FISO I was, perhaps mistakingly, assuming that you had already considered ATCO training and was just wondering why you had discounted it.

[CraigyD]

Glamdring, I think my response came across as pretty rude and I apologise.

I guess the main reason is I am currently working through ATPL exams at the moment (just recieved confirmation of my first 6 booked on 7th/8th/9th September) and I think going down the ATC route will be asking a bit to much of myself. I know FISO training won't be easy but im sure it won't be as taxing as ATC training (can't remember how long the training is off the top of my head). What do you think?

[Glamdring]

Fair enough, and I agree, ATPL exams at the same time as ATCO training probably wouldn't be the wisest idea. It would be something to consider once you have done the ATPLs though, and they would look good on a NATS application. Depends how quickly you manage to get a flying job I suppose, but looking through the forums on here I would wager it would be a few years.

[CraigyD]

I would wager it would be a few years Agreed :sad:!

I hope to have the ATPL exams done by next April and won't be doing the CPL flying course until the following year, so I will look into it more then.

[Bigbangman]

Hi,

Apologies for hijacking the thread but i have some questions about FISO's

I have recently retired at age 52 following redundancy (non aviation related). I've been into all things aviation since the 70's and was looking at self sponsoring a FISO licence. I also hold a lapsed CAA PPL which i will hopefully be revalidating as well.

The question really is what are the chances of getting a FISO position either part-time or ad-hoc or whatever, don't care so much about the pay would just be interested in doing a FISO role but obviously need a position to get the MER aspect.

I'm in the Midlands and having looked at aerodromes with FIS towers within 50-60 miles they don't seem to be overly prolific. Don't mind paying my own way but not to waste it all if nobody wants me or its a bit of a closed shop or reserved for retired ATCO's etc.

Views and thoughts appreciated.

Regards

[chevvron]

There might be a proportion of retired ATCOs; at my unit 2 out of 9 are just that. There's certainly an age gap, with 4 of us over 60 and the other 5 under 30.

[SKOS]

Hi Chevron,

If you don't mind me asking, any reason why you would retire as ATCO to be a FISO? I was of the opinion remaining as the former was far better? Forgive my ignorance though if I am wrong..............

[Talkdownman]

any reason why you would retire as ATCO to be a FISO?
Could it conceivably be that nats might be none too keen on operational ATCOs over sixty, I wonder....:E

[chevvron]

Precisely that. I volunteered to stay on after 60 part time, but the terms and conditions I was offered were not suitable for my requirements.

[Talkdownman]

Precisely that. I volunteered to stay on after 60 part time, but the terms and conditions I was offered were not suitable for my requirements.
Me too. I too volunteered to stay on part time, but the terms and conditions I was offered by nats were a total insult after 40 years loyal service: A huge pay reduction to point 11.5 ATCO 3 Band 2 plus a whole string of conditions including no secondary employment permitted whatsoever, even for part-time. Hence now a FISO with an ATC Licence, which is nats' loss...

[SKOS]

Any reasons why nats wouldn't be too keen on ATCO's over 60. If currentl news is to be believed, the government really is wanting to raise the retirement age to 70 for men and 65 for women, am I right?

Also, what about passing all that experience to the students at the college - could that be a realistic option? I mean teaching or instructing at the college?

[Talkdownman]

what about passing all that experience to the students at the college - could that be a realistic option? I mean teaching or instructing at the college?
nats relocation terms and conditions from LTCC to Swanwick were extremely restrictive for TC ATCOs aged 57 and over. nats just didn't want to pay for them to move. In fact they just didn't want expensive old ATCOs at the top of the scale at all. They did their damndest to make it difficult for ATCOs aged 57 and over to move down. Relocation to the College would have been even less likely. It would appear that the only way for retirees to instruct at the College would be to work through an agency at a pay rate considerably less than that of an operational ATCO within Terminal Control. I can empathise with chevvron pulling out to become nats-free and a local FISO instead. The job satisfaction can be comparable on occasions.

Three of our seven FISOs are retired ATCOs but is is far from being a closed shop for retired ATCOs. I think it would be a great job for BigBangMan. How about Halfpenny Green?

[Bigbangman]

Hi all,

Thanks for the info, looks like it could be a possibility. I would think that by whats been said that its a role more performed by those with an interest in aviation rather than career job, this suits me as the involvement is a greater consideration than pay.

Thought about H'penny Green, also Shobdon and Cotswold (Kemble) but would prefer Wellesbourne as its a nice field just down the road and i will be looking to revalidate my PPL there.

In time and with luck we'll see. Next step is medical and a speculative approach to those above to see if any interest exists.

Thanks again :ok:

[chevvron]

Whilst I could have been an instructor at the college many years ago, the 'mind set' of student ATCOs nowadays is different. In my day, you applied because you had an interest in aviation, probably you were in a branch of the Air Cadet movement, and wanted a career which reflected this, whereas now, many (note I said many not all) students are university graduates who think they deserve a high paid job, but have no prior knowledge, experience or interest in aviation.
Yes I know all the so called experts say 'it's OK you can be trained to be an ATCO if you pass the selection tests' but I'm pretty certain the proportion of trainees who fail to reach validation standard (having passed the college course with flying colours) is much greater nowadays than it was 40 odd years ago.

[PhiltheReaper]

This thread is a bit like a faithful companion, getting a bit old, but still completely useful!

Chevron, I've seen your very sensible posts elsewhere on this forum and I'm grateful for those. If you don't mind, I'd like to hi-jack this thread to relate it a little to myself (selfish so and so)!

I live in North Yorkshire at the moment, and as you may be aware I have a current NATS application on-going.

I have done some research into FISOs, looked at the CAA CAP documents relating to radiotelephony and FISOs and coallated it into a Wikipedia article entitled Flight Information Service Officer (it helps me collect the research in my mind, and was useful for en.wiki! In fact, if you'd like to contribute to that article I'd be veeeeeery very thankful), but I still have a few questions.

I'm loosely addressing this post to you as I'm interested to hear that after NATS you became a FISO (in fact, if I fail the process somewhere of becoming an ATCO I will probably try to self-fund a FISO License immediately).

May I ask the following:

Do you know where I can find a list of AFIS Aerodromes in North Yorkshire ( / Yorkshire in general)?
Do you know if there are many jobs going at the moment for FISOs around the land?
And slightly off topic (this should perhaps be in the NATS application thread, but this saves a short post!).
I'm considering (very strongly), the possibility of gaining my AC Certificate of Competency. Is it worth doing this even before passing / failing my application?

Thank you (and any other kind souls who might reply here).

Phil

[chevvron]

Can't think offhand what FISO airfields there might be in Yorkshire - most appear to be A/G or Safetycom. I'm afraid I'm not in a position to assess what FISO jobs might be around either; you tend to retire when you want rather than at a set age, although in my present situation, some people are getting 'second strings' such as gaining ATPLs or instructing as well as 'second' jobs outside aviation, so if this is the norm, you might find somewhere which is only part time.
It's certainly useful to get an A/G Certificate as if you get chance to use it, you will be able to understand RTF exchanges much better when (not if) you become an ATCO.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<Any reasons why nats wouldn't be too keen on ATCO's over 60. If currentl news is to be believed, the government really is wanting to raise the retirement age to 70 for men and 65 for women, am I right?>>

Very few people would be capable of working a busy ATC sector well into their 60s. What has happened in the past is controllers have come off operational work and moved into office jobs. It's fairly easy at big units, but not at smaller ones.

[chevvron]

Just to reassure you, all controllers (and FISOs for that matter) irrespective of age are subject to an annual competency check, hence any deterioration in their capabilities or performance would be noticed.

[PhiltheReaper]

I am certainly going to go for the A/G certificate.

Also, thanks for the Confidence in my ability!

Phil