Confused and frustrated

[MightyDucks]

Hi all,

I'm looking for anyone who has been in the same situation as i am, and can give some advice.

I recently started my PPL training, something i've worked hard and saved and dreamed about for a long time. However it hasn't been the fun i thought it would be. Things haven't gone well for me. I've about 8 hours done and i feel i haven't learnt much. i've only done one take off and one radio call which didn't go every well and either has the rest of my training. i went down today thinking i was going to be doing stalls only to find out i'd be going over climbing and descending again which didn't go well the first time. i admit i was disappointed but i was completely gutted when i was told i'd have to go over it again the next day.:{gutted.

This along with the rest of my training hasn't gone well and i'm starting to wondering would i be better of spending my money somewhere else. I've wanted to be a pilot for a long time now and the way things have been going are killing me. i don't blame the school in any way because i'd rather be a good pilot than one with minimal hours. Also within the last 8 hours i've had 3 different instructors which hasn't helped either.

If anyone give me some advice i'd be gratefull,

Cheers:ok:

(Just read this back. god i sound like moaner):O

[172driver]

Change flight school.

[douglas.lindsay]

I would suggest coming over to my school in Prestwick - they're great - but, well, it's a long way to Tipperary...

(sorry, couldn't resist!)

[cjm_2010]

how much preparation are you doing before each lesson? books, flight sims?

[douglas.lindsay]

cjm's question is a good one - I found my flight sim really useful in making progress, particularly with circuits, PFL and the like. You can use FlightGear for free, or pay a little for something else that has nice stuff like real terrain pictures. Get yourself a proper yoke and pedals, though - eBay occasionally has some. A joystick is a bit of a waste of time.

During my power training I stuck to the same instructor for almost all of it. On the occasions when I took somebody else (when my usual guy wasn't there) there was definitely a long-term benefit - emphasis on different aspects of some things - but I was also aware that I didn't make anywhere near as much progress.

Have you had 3 instructors because you're not available, or because they're not available? Might be worth talking to one of them and trying to synchronize a bit.

Edit: And don't be afraid to be picky - you are, after all, paying quite considerably (or somebody else very generous is)!

[MightyDucks]

The reason for the different instructors is because its just the way the school works. all students have a different instructor.

As for the prep work. i read up on each lesson before i do it. i do have flight sim but i don't find it too helpful yet.

Would this be very out of the normal procedures to do that lesson 3 times?

I can asure you its all my money

[The Old Fat One]

Unless you have willingly agreed to the changes, 3 different instructors in your first 8 lessons is not good enough.

One radio call in 8 lessons sounds odd, but maybe that is part of the school's method - I don't know.

Saying you don't blame the school in any way is little naive. Maybe, as hinted, you are not reviewing your flights sufficiently or carrying out the necessary ground prep and study. Maybe you are not cut out for flying (it's not for everybody). Or maybe the instruction is not all it could be. If you really want it (and if you are not committed walk away now) start off by putting more effort into your ground study, whilst telling the flight school you only want to fly with the same instructor for the next 10 or so flights.

Tip, find out which of the three instructors are unrestricted and stick with them. They are likely to be the most experienced and they will be able to solo you without having to hand you on to somebody else at a crucial stage.

If the flight school don't respect your input, find another school.

[L'aviateur]

Sometimes it's a case of finding a flying instructor that you like and puts you at ease. Someone who will make the learning enjoyable, so that your not just spending money, but your having a good time. Even better if you can get involved in a club where you can do some backseat trips and just start to have fun in flying.
It's good to have goals, but it's also good to enjoy being up in the air.

You should also keep preparing on the ground, be as ready as possible. Read through the checklists whilst thinking through the procedures, practice the memory checks to make them flow more easily in the air. Read through the last exercise you did a few times to make it stick, and read up on the next exercise so you are remembering the procedures. Read up and practice your circuit procedures, heights, power settings and turns in your head. This means you can concentrate more on flying in the air.
For the radio, reading CAP 413 (I think?), and listening to ATC on radio or something can help. I listened to Amsterdam on the internet when I was doing my PPL trying to build a mental image of what was going on just by listening, and it improved my RT very quickly. Just practising the phrases, and knowing them so you don't have to think too much about them.

Also, be ready for the lesson. Arrive early so that you can be relaxed, go through the Notams, METARS and TAFs whilst chatting to people in the club so that you can bring yourself into the right mindset before the flight.

These things all worked for me.

[RTN11]

Changing instructors so much in your first 8 hours will definately hinder your progress. I would recommend either trying to stick with an instructor you think you will learn well from, or a change of schools.

8 hours should be ample time to cover the first 9 exercises correctly, but different instructors have very different methods. How long did you spend on 4-6? should be at least 2-3 hours, but is often rushed and crammed into 1-1.5. These early exercises are the very foundation of your flying ability, and instinct such as the need to use right rudder when entering a climb. If these are not emphasised early on, students often struggle with 7-9.

The best advice would be to talk to the CFI and voice your concerns. If noone is availble to help you, change schools asap.

Good luck with the rest of the course, I hope you haven't been put off too much.

[n5296s]

Sounds like the school is the problem. I wasn't a particularly quick student but at 8 hours I was doing everything myself - t/o, landing, radio (lots of here in the Bay Area), and stalls and airwork.

n5296s

[p1andy]

You definately need to get yourself one instructor. Choping and changing between a few instructors is no use. Get that sorted out then just ask him/her to be truthful to you about your flying progress.

[Paul H]

There is definately an issues with having more than one instructor. I had mine picked from day one, then stuck with him all the way to my skills test. Then the problems started.....in a nutshell

1) The lovely British weather helped to cancel my skills test 7 times in 8 weeks
2) After 8 weeks, I needed to start flying again before I could take my test.
3) My instructor went to Oz for 4 weeks.
4) I flew with 3 other instructors, all of which had different opinions of what and how things should be done, including some things I'd never heard of.
5) My instructor came back and told me everything the other instructors had taught me was wrong, which was annoying since I had been getting used to their new methods.

10 months on (yes TEN), 15 cancelled tests, I'm ready again to take my skills test, after having everything rewired in my brain. It's cost me about an extra £1,000, and delayed me nearly a year:ugh:

Not everything in one chapter can be covered in one lesson, even the basics need repeating until they feel mastered and second nature. I didn't really make any radio calls apart from radio checks and downwind/final calls until about 10/15 hrs. Remember to learn at your own pace, and don't worry about trying to complete in the magical 45 hrs, I'm at 65hrs now (not intentionally), but a much better prepared pilot because of it. Hours = experience = knowledge = safety.:ok:

[douglas.lindsay]

That's pretty tough going, Paul! I had problems earlier this year when I was trying to do my qualifying XC, but nothing compared to that. Hope your next test booking is different!

[Pilot DAR]

I agree with those who suggest that you should be able to complete your initial training (first 20 hours or so) with only one instructor, changing only if it your choice. If you think instructors are trying to not fly with you, better ask yourself (or them) why?

However, consider that though the instructor may be there to "instruct", and some of that will be necessary for you to learn, the instructor is also there more simply as a qualified person who will assure your safety, while you learn yourself. In my opinion (I'm not an instructor), after 8 hours of training, the instructor should be able to sit back and watch you fly, with only minor pointers and observations. Intervention should not be required, other than for intense maneuvering, and close to the ground. If this is not so, they are not relaxed with you flying. You need to sell them on your skills - whatever they are!

Are you mentally prepared to learn to the greatest extent while you are flying? Getting in the plane, and telling the person beside you "teach me to fly", is really the hard way for you to learn. After a few lessons, your interest should be so peaked that you enter the cockpit with a hundred questions each time, something new you want to experiment with, and new elements you would like to explore for those things you have already learned.

My opinion is that generally, if the instructor sees that you have a gentle touch, and respond promptly and well to verbal instruction, it should be possible to talk you through most of the flying, without his/her touching the controls much at all. To satisfy myself of this years ago, I mentored my 15 year old cousin for only her second ever flight in a light aircraft. After 1.6 hours of getting her relaxed and confident with the controls, I had talked her through 2 very adequate takeoffs and landings on a long frozen lake (so runway dimension was not a factor). I did the power, but she did everything else on her own. She had not expected the flight that day, but was certainly very enthusiastic, and primed to learn.

Prime yourself to learn in every way you can. Probably sitting in the aircraft for a half an hour or so before each lesson will help. Think of it this way, you're paying to be there, every moment that your are not actually flying the aircraft, you're missing the best value of the flight. If the instructor takes the controls, do whatever you can to make him/her confident that they do not need to be in control of the aircraft, you will do it at least adequately.

Let us know how you make out...

[AdamFrisch]

Change instructor or school, I'd say.

Many instructors are simply not very good at teaching - it's not an easy job and it requires a certain enthusiasm or personality to imbue knowledge in an effortless way and in a way that has the student really absorbing it. Just think back to your school years - there was always that one teacher that everyone liked and learned a lot from. But they're rare - there was never more than one, if even that.

It can be extremely depressing when you sense you're not making any progress. I've recently had the same experience doing my FAA standalone license and I changed instructor.

[ChasG]

Pick the instructor that suits you best and stick with him/her or change school. While I am sure everybody goes through a difficult patch, every lesson shouldnt be a trial. I was going to give up but following a post on here I am now enjoying it and I look at it that I am paying for the experience and am not overly concerned if I dont get it right each time - my instructor will teach me at the pace he thinks I can cope with. Learning Air law on the other hand is like trying to eat cardboard :) Good luck and dont get disheartened.

[ChasG]

ps have a chat with some of the other people at your school and listen to tales of getting lost on the cross country test and how difficult they found it at times - cheered me up and made me realise it wasnt just me.

[stickandrudderman]

Some good advice here.
Try to find experienced pilots at your school (hirers or owners) and see if they'll have you along on their burger runs. You'll be amazed by how quickly you become familiar with everything once you've sat in the right seat as a passenger a few times; you can observe what P1 is doing/saying and pretty soon it will all become very easy for you so that when you're asked to do it yourself you'll accomplish much more and quickly.
Good luck.

[Whopity]

i went down today thinking i was going to be doing stalls only to find out i'd be going over climbing and descending again which didn't go well the first time.There by you own admission it didn't go well the first time. Climbing and descending are probably the simplest exercises on the course and you expect to move on when they clearly were not up to standard. It sounds as though the instructor was entirely right; there is no point moving on to a new skill if the previous skill has not been mastered.

The European way of teaching is one of building blocks. The later blocks depend on the earlier blocks being in place. In each lesson you learn new skills and practice skills learned earlier.

I am intrigued how everyone jumps in to blame the school and instructor(s), which I am pleased to see you don't. Learning to fly is quite demanding when done correctly and it will take a few lessons before it all starts to come together. Its better that you repeat lessons rather than move on to the point where you spend ages in the circuit because you still can't fly the aeroplane. Different people progress at different rates. Imagine yourself going through these exercises trussed up like a turkey with harnesses, parachutes, bone domes and oxygen masks, like thre military student then think how comfortable you are in your shirt sleeves and a lightweight headset.

Prepare for each lesson i.e. read the book about the next exercise and understand what you did on the previous exercise. If you don't understand anything, ask to do it again and expect to repeat exercises until you have mastered them.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

If you think instructors are trying to not fly with you, better ask yourself (or them) why?
One possible reason could be that the first instructor goes to the CFI and says "look, I'm just not getting through to this guy, perhaps you could try him with Bert, I think his style might work better in this case?". But that doesn't explain the third one or the lack of explaining the issue and process to the student.

[Jan Olieslagers]

MightyDuck,
Don't be discouraged. Looking from the inside, you really cannot judge how much progress you are making. Myself a slow learner, I spent several times an hour or more running touch & go's, and drove home with the feeling the last circuit was no different from the first. Yet one day I was suddenly sent up solo - and managed quite well, to my lasting delight and surprise. Certainly every student will pick up some points easier than some others - sideslipping came naturally to me, and I still enjoy it a good deal; whereas some fellow students told me they remain uneasy about it.
BTW myself had two instructors and that was a nice formula for me - they each had their style and their habits, and I knew what to expect from each. I could not have managed more, I think.
OTOH, you are passing a good deal of money and you should have some say in the way it is spent. If you request to have one single instructor your flight school should be able AND willing to arrange this - otherwise you had indeed better find someone else on whom to bestow your hard-earned pecuniaries.

[RTN11]

The biggest problem is that different instructors have very different methods and ideas about what is right and wrong, often damning what other instructors say as a load of rubbish when each method may well be perfectly safe.

When I fly with a student who has flown with another instructor, I let them stick to their standard procedures as long as they are safe. The key areas are things like use of carb heat, and touch and go technique (to put on power first or raise flap). By hopping from one instructor to another early on you get told contrasting things each lesson, and are too inexperienced to make your own mind up about what is the right thing.

[IrishJason]

Waterford aero club is great and Its not too far away from you either if you drive yourself ?

[Molesworth 1]

When I fly with a student who has flown with another instructor, I let them stick to their standard procedures as long as they are safe. The key areas are things like use of carb heat, and touch and go technique (to put on power first or raise flap). By hopping from one instructor to another early on you get told contrasting things each lesson, and are too inexperienced to make your own mind up about what is the right thing.


One continues to get this after one has a PPL with check rides. It's extremely annoying and frustrating. I suspect instructors generally are just too inexperienced / too immature and opinionated to take a more objective approach.

I was chatting to a student recently who was very upset because his instructor (different to his previous lesson) had bawled him out for not being properly prepared. One of his crimes was that he forgot his checklist at home. Please - just lend him another, for goodness sake!

The student was so upset after the briefing that he didn't want to do the flying part of the lesson - which meant the instructor received nothing.

Flying schools really need to become more professional and stop acting as if we were still in the early days of flying. There are just too many stories from upset students. Ok - it might be partly the student's attitude - but then not many students come away from an art or language lesson feeling like this. It's pathetic.

[dublinpilot]

MD,

It may be your school, it may be your instructors, or it may be your abilities. Only the last one you can't actually change ;)

I was incredibly lucky in that I had some very good instructors and got through my PPL in minimum hours.

However shortly after getting my PPL my school got taken over by another, and I found myself with a major problem with a new instructor. The problem instantly went away when we both agreed that a change of instructors might be a good idea.

Later I had a similar problem with another instructor (in another club), and again the problem went away when I flew with the CFI.

I later discovered that many people had problems with these two instructors....

The point is that a different instructor may very well change things totally for you.

Or perhaps a change of flight school might be needed two. Flying is expensive and there is no point spending your hard earned money if a) you're not enjoying it, and b) you're not making any progress.

I would try changing first your instructor so that you're with one instructor that you learn well from and only fly with them. If that doesn't solve your problem, then change schools.

If that doesn't solve your problem then maybe try a different type of flying. It's too expensive not to enjoy it!

[Humaround]

I agree with most replies that you should not be expected to cope with frequent (any) changes of instructor, specially in the early stages. It's all about confidence and it's easy to see that yours has been damaged. Confidence in the instructor is key.

You don't say what period your 8 hours were completed over? Try to have one lesson a week, minimum, better 2 per week. This may mean booking four a week, due weather and other factors...

[bingofuel]

i went down today thinking i was going to be doing stalls only to find out i'd be going over climbing and descending again which didn't go well the first time.

Why did you think you were going to do stalling? What was said at the post flight debrief by your instructor, assuming you had a debrief? Did he say that the lesson had been satisfactory and tell you that the next lesson would be stalling or did you assume it?

Even with a change of instructor your record would have said where you were and what should be next. So where has the confusion about the lesson content come from?

[Molesworth 1]

After being thoroughly messed around at one flying school for my first few lessons I transferred to another - had one excellent lady instructor and passed my skills test about 8 months later.

Being off work for some months and having some unexpected funds I was able to complete my PPL in a shorter time. Having lessons closer together definitely helps.

Having said that I had to wait for 2-3 weeks for the right weather for my XC and a similar time for the skills test.

Don't give up! You'll be glad you persisted.

[MightyDucks]

i thought i was going to be doing stalls because i saw it recommended on my debreif form but so was climbing and descending.

I'm doin two lessons a week. i done another lesson today. not climbing and descending. althought it was climbing and descending turns. and yet another new instructor. however i was most comfortable with this guy. he gave me a lot of confidence and told me i done very well.

I decided to give the CFI a ring tomorrow and try to get that guy for good and see how that goes.

[RTN11]

Sounds like a very positive step.

Don't get too worried about your progress against other students. Different schools and different instructors teach at very different paces. The fact you may not have flown a take off or landing doesn't seem surprising. The surface wind may have been unsuitable for a first take off or landing, and some instructors just don't let their students do it until they get to 12-13, or at least past climbing/descending. There's nothing wrong with that, it's just a different teaching method.

My school has introduced an SOP that each of the early exercises must be covered in at least an hour. This makes it impossible to go solo in the 8 hours or less that some students will quote, but in my opinion it builds a good foundation that makes the rest of the course go much better.

It's a marathon not a sprint.

[mary meagher]

Hey, Mighty Ducks on the Emerald Isle!

Sounds like you are not enjoying yourself. And all these earnest pilots are giving you a variety of advice.

Here is something completely different. Are you learning to fly because you want to be an airline pilot? or do you just want to learn to fly for fun, because it is something you always wanted to do and dreamed about?

To become an airline pilot you had better get on very well with your bank manager. Cost at least £30,000, or thereabouts.

To have fun flying, give yourself a break from that flying school treadmill, and go drop in on the gliding club at Gowran Grange, that's the Dublin Gliding Club. You can probably google for contacts and directions.

Dont expect a lot, just visit, observe, see if it is something you might want to try. If you do try it, you may find you like it.

And nothing but nothing makes power flying easier than a gliding background. Just the essentials! Takeoff, look around, fly around, and land. And help out with the ground work as that's what keeps gliding less expensive, everyone pitches in.

I'm sure they will make a fine young fellow like yourself very welcome.

Mary

[The Fenland Flyer]

I agree, go and have fun either gliding, or in a fixed wing microlight (that's what I fly) :) Go back to the expensive tin cans when you've got the hang of flying (If your not having so much fun you don't want to go back that is!)

[noperf]

I couldn't agree more. Go fly a glider. It can be for the amateur, in my opinion, much more relaxing and rewarding.

noperf
c-150
through
B747

[BroomstickPilot]

Hi MD,

I regret I must disagree with what has been posted by the gliding enthusiasts.

Their advice is rather like advising a learner car driver, who is having difficulty with his car driving, to go off and ride a bike to improve his driving. What he wants to do is drive a car and to detour him onto another type of vehicle entirely is mostly a waste of his time and money.

I too started off gliding. Certainly, it taught me lessons that later proved valuable when I came to learn to fly powered aircraft; indeed they continue to be valuable even now. But the cost in terms of time and money would never have been justified if my only objective had been to be a better power pilot. It was only justified because at that time I wanted to glide.

I remember the frustration of gliding, the long flying lists of people awaiting their turn to fly, with my name at or near the very bottom. Many times I had to work like a trojan all day, in the hope that I might just get to fly once for a few minutes sometime before flying ceased for the day at 9 p.m. Many times I worked a whole weekend at the gliding site in the hope of getting a flight and did not succeed in doing so.

At London Gliding Club, you needed a seperate checkout for each and every approach on the field, so that if the wind changed to an approach you were not checked out on, you couldn't fly solo.

I would say don't take up gliding merely to improve your powered flying.

If you just happen to fancy a new flying experience, and can afford the time and cost, then I would say definitely take a week's gliding holiday one summer. But don't take up gliding every weekend to improve your powered flying as you will have to give up the one (and lose all currency) in order to pursue the other.

Regards,

Broomstick.

[mary meagher]

Ah, Broomstick, London Gliding Club is very different from Dublin. And anyone who lives in the stockbroker belt must resent spending time at a gliding club. Obviously, time is money, for Broomstick.

Don't let him put you off, Mighty Ducks. Just as riding a bicycle can be a lot more fun than driving a car in London traffic, or sitting in the traffic jam fuming, so flying a glider, sharing a thermal with a red kite, or 3 other gliders, is fun, wonderful fun, and that's the only reason we do it.

I can drive a spam can, too, big deal. Its fun, especially if its a sea plane, but you can fall in love with gliding. Don't kid yourself that power flying can be a business tool or a form of transport - its mainly for posers.

LOL

[flightranger]

Mighty Duck,

I think your situation is not new and at some stage in everyone's flying life the 'frustration' does kick in with different event... like not being able to progress quicker, the lack of funds forcing you down and unwanted path or and the dam weather....etc.

Instructors in my books are of two type the ones you can learn from and the ones who can teach!! and this comes down to personal aptitude and alot of attitude (the positive kind I mean) .. In one way or the other everyone's comments out here reflect the same message.

Find an instructor in the school you can be honest with.. don't hesitate to tell them what you think, it's a two way learning curve no matter how old or experienced someone is.. feedback is 'constructive'...if you want it to be! And don't forget its your MONEY at the end of the day.. ask yourself what value do you gain out of the instructors time and was it worth it.... if you don't feel any more confident after trying this approach find another school.

I hope you things go well for you ....

Cheers!

[Duchess_Driver]

As everybody else seems to be advocating a move away from flying 'spam cans' (WTF?) - can I recommend that you take up ballooning - or parachuting - or better still BASE jumping? Not what you were asking but hey, we all know better than you!

Constructive, eh?:ok:

[Pilot DAR]

Gliding training as a supplement to power training? In my opinion, not the best idea. Not the worst either, it it just a distraction. Gliding is wonderful, and yes, it really does teach you precision in your flying, and how to get the most out of the simplest aspects of being airborne, which has great importance.

But it will distract you somewhat, because some aspects of flying unpowered vs powered are different. From what I understand your position, and challenges are, my opinion is that this would be more a detrement, than a benefit to your progression with power planes. If it interests you, certainly go try. But as a diversion stepping stone during PPL training, it won't get you any further ahead. When you get back in the power plane, there will be a few things you have to do the "other way" again, and this transition back and forth requires a pilot skill set which is still just at the very beginning for you.

When you're learning and practicing something, If you're struggling, don't change what you're learning in, but how you're learning in it!

Once you're very confident in a type of aircraft, very certainly, try others, and master them. There are dozens of different configurations of aircraft, and they all have their merits, and you should learn them all if you can, but one step forward at a time...

And by the way, some pilots are too good to fly aircraft that remind them of "Spam". If the plane looks like spam, smells like spam, contains spam (not in its original can), I agree, don't fly it. Otherwise, a well maintained, clean simple aircraft can be a delight, and has a vitail role in the economical training of new pilots, and the long term satisfaction of experienced ones. 23 years ago tomorrow I bought the C-150 which I fly regularly, and have no intention of selling. It is one of 81 different aircraft types I have flown, and it's still what I prefer, when I have to pay to be airborne!

By the way, I looked at the pleasant Cessna 162 at Oshkosh, and although I quite like it, it seems no less a "can" than a 150. There are very certainly safety and structural reasons I prefer a conventional construction metal airplane over some other designs, but that is a subject for a different thread!

[Crash one]

In spite of the fact that I too did the gliding thing because I enjoyed gliding, (I had a share in a K6e). I must agree with Broomstick, I have spent many a weekend driving tractors & winches to find myself finally airborne just before the red light got switched on at the clubhouse! Gliding is a dedication thing, very satifying staying up in marginal lift, etc, but if one actually wants to fly & go somewhere with a reasonably good chance of arriving at the previously chosen destination, then a fan on the front is a necessity. Gliding will improve your flying skills, yes, there is a cameraderie among those glider pilots that are prepared to muck in together. but there are them that phone up at 7 am asking to be put on the flying list, then turn up at 1030 expecting to jump in & go! These are called Plonkers!! As for "posers", Mary, I fly a 1959 taildragger out of a usually deserted grass strip, no bar to lean on, no bimbos to impress. I just drive home happy after Iv'e managed to put all 3 wheels on the ground at the same time & stopped in 100yards. What other people think, *&^%$£"!. Mighty Ducks, If your exercises are "not going too good" then your instructor either didn't get it across, or didn't try to! or you didn't get it. Either way it is no use going on to the next bit until you do. I would be a bit suspicious of only doing one take off in 8 hours, our instructors would let you do that at lesson 2 or earlier.

[n5296s]

Gliding as a way to learn powered flight: tosh.

Gliding is an excellent way to burn money*, and an OK-ish way to improve some aspects of your flying skills once you can already deal with basics. Just like taildraggers (for the second point anyway, they're not especially expensive).

Advantages of powered aircraft:

1. They're what you what want to end up doing (presumably).
2. You can do this neat trick called a "go around" when your landing is terminally messed up - which is guaranteed to be often in the early stages.
3. You can fly for as long as you're likely to want to, while you do things like airwork.
4. You can go to other places - that you have chosen before you start the flight.

I could go on.

n5296s

* - my one brief experience of gliding was that per hour it cost me as much as the Pitts, i.e. a LOT. Actual glider time is inexpensive, but all those tows cost a fortune. Glider pilots talk about this mysterious thing called "lift", but we (me + instructor) never found any. And if you do find some, you'd better have seriously good flying skills to take advantage of it, since it involves flying steep turns on the hairy edge of a stall. Easy when you know how, potentially fatal before that.

[MightyDucks]

Thanks everyone for the advice,

i don't think gliding would be for me at the moment. First off i don't think i could afford it and in the long run i would like to go all the way to a CPL (don't slate me). my idea was to do the ppl first and see how it goes.

Just to let ye know i completed my slow flight, stalls and turning stalls in my last lesson which put the smile back on my face:).

As for the gliding, its something i'd love to try, someday.

Thanks again

[mary meagher]

O dear. Very very dear. N5296S is quite correct, in the US of A gliding IS VERY EXPENSIVE. Thats because it is usually a privately owned operation trying to make money.

As opposed to the UK and Ireland where it is usually a club run for the benefit of the members. So over here, it is relatively cheap.

I have no idea what flying a power plane costs these days, at a guess, more than £90 ph? That will eat up your savings, all right.

On the other hand, if you have a trial lesson at Shenington (my club) it will cost you £40. For a winch launch. INCLUDING THREE MONTHS MEMBERSHIP!
Now that three month membership means that when you turn up again,you are expected to help out along with everyone else, and pay £7 for a winch launch. The instructor is doing it for love. So you really can afford a lot of takeoffs and landings, no worry that you can't go around, we don't usually mess up our landings.

As I surmised, Mighty Ducks would like to go for the commercial license, no harm in that. And to achieve the commercial license will be a source of great pride and satisfaction. So good luck with your plans.

[Pilot DAR]

Hmmm..

We're sorry to have possibly offended Mary!

Let's say that power planes are like apples, and gliders are like oranges. We all have heard that both apples, and oranges are just great, and perhaps we've had the chance to try both... But,

If the objective is to eat apples, eating oranges won't quite do it. Sure, oranges are great, and satisfying, but they're still not apples!

If you have an objective to eat apples, eat apples. If you have an objective to broaden your horizons, then certainly eat oranges too, or instead. If you can afford to eat oranges more than apples, this is no longer a discussion about pilot training (sorry, fruit eating), but budgeting.

If both the power plane, and the glider, were sitting on the ramp side by side, none of us would be recommending to the Mighty, that he/she accept the flight school swapping back and forth between these aircraft types, as was reported about the swapping of instructors.

At this stage, consistancy!

[Molesworth 1]

Methinks Mary is just using this thread as a good opportunity to plug her gliding club!:D

[mary meagher]

Not really, Molesworth. I havn't recently made a survey of charges at other clubs, they probably differ quite a lot. So mentioned ours for comparisons.

The point I was trying to make is that in the USA power flying is relatively cheap. As the entire nation is addicted to petrol, no politician dares to load any significant duty onto fuel. Furthermore, private flying in the US is accorded respect and opportunity to fly in wide open spaces, free landings at every municipal airport, turn the lights on at night by pressing your transmit button, and welcomed into airways by enroute radar services. They appreciate your call and keep track of you and let you know about sigmets, I could go on and on.

But gliding in the US? a very very poor relation. Governed, alas by the government, alias the FAA. Which certifies instructors who have NEVER EVEN BEEN CROSS COUNTRY! So gliding enterprises are pretty much on a hiding to nowhere. Sending up two punters at a time in a tin shed for a sightseeing bimble. ( If you want to fly a decent glider in the US, import one from Europe)

Consequently, the few gliding CLUBS that survive over there are haunts of expatriate europeans; and most American gliding is somebody trying to make a buck.

In the US, gliding is more expensive than power.
In Europe, gliding is cheaper than power.

Please tell me I'm wrong!

[I touch the sky]

you must have been a natural if you were landing on your own in 8 hours. I have 60 hours in and still have no solo because my landings are not consistent. One problem I believe was changing the plane I flew, but another issue I believe was my instructor saw me as a cash cow and wasn't helping me to develop the skills I needed to develop my landings. I suppose getting nervous about blowing one landing after another didn't help. How did you do it so quickly?

[stevelup]

Have you thought about trying a different instructor? 60hrs without solo seems almost unbelievable.

[mary meagher]

I had a lot of trouble learning to land, way back in 1983.

After 30 or so glider flights on aerotow at Booker, I went over to the USA and flew a Cessna 152 with John Cumberpatch at a small strip just over the Chesapeake Bay Bridge.

Where it was always a strong crosswind! The airfield, alas, had not been planned to take advantage of the prevailing winds.

So poor old John, as soon as this old woman got to the point of touching down, had to take control to avoid major problems.

Just possibly, you are flying at a difficult site? Landing into wind helps a lot.

[mad_jock]

You know when ever I read about 20 plus hours to solo. I just want to get my hands on the student and sort them out.

Ask your instructor to take you out of the circuit and practise basic skills eg trimming for speeds configuring the aircraft and even striaght and level in TRIM.

[thing]

Does anyone think it's easier to fly powered if they have gliding time or is it like having thousands of hours on a flight sim, an instructors nightmare?

I have to say one thing that continually amazes me as a glider guy about powered flying is the amount of deaths/serious injuries when the fan stops and you have to field land. Is it that hard to put a spamcan in a field? I've done a lot of bimbling around in SEP's and even as a non PPL I would be pretty confident about plonking one in a field safely. Am I missing something here? Is it because I'm always looking for a field to land in? (I even do it as a passenger on airliners sadly enough, 'Yes that pasture looks big enough to put a 777 down') No disrespect to those who have tried and died by the way.

[mad_jock]

Apart from calming down with the rudder inputs I haven't had any issues with glider powered converstions.

Although one of the sods when i pulled the power on him for a PFL started gaining altitude. When asked "what are you doing" his cunning plan was to move the aircraft 10 miles or so along the ridge gain another 500 ft then land at a disused field. Reckon he would have done it as well.

They are though utterly pants on the radio.

And it isn't hard its all about currency. Most spam drivers don't practise steep turns PFL's and the like. They maybe do an hour a month bimble or burger run and thats it. Maybe every 2 years with an instructor they hamfisted get through an hour and promise themsleves they will go up for an hour to practise but they never do. If the pilot has been a reasonably high houred instructor the currency doesn't seem to matter so much. Its proberly to do with the fact you have demonstrated the things that often your muscle memory is well and truely programmed. And demonstrating a PFL from the RHS but doing a LHS "circuit" means that 90% of the time you don't see the field your going for anyway until you turn in for your constant aspect approach. Tends to develop your SA about what where how your doing it.

[24Carrot]

Re Field landings easier in gliders, a few things spring to mind:
Better L/D ratio gives you more choices,
Lower sink rate gives you more time,
no fuel to catch fire,
pilot has more practice.

[findyourwings]

Hi, Ive just had my 8th lesson (only 5hrs 40 all together though!) and I've had 5 different instructors! I have good lessons and bad lessons. Some lessons I come away feeling really happy and confident and others I come away feeling like I've taken a step back. Due to funds I can only have 2 lessons a month, which works out ok, but with the weather they often get cancelled and it can be three or four weeks in between lessons! Meaning I forget basic things and have to relearn certain things. however I still feel like i'm slowly progressing I am doing a lot more radio calls and have done a few circuits (instructor decided last lesson that weather was unsuitable for slow flight - which is what i was meant to be doing!) which was an interesting experience! haha.

Although I think I feel a bit differently about it to you, I think with all the gaps between lessons that I could probably do with repeating some bits. Do you find that you need to ask loads of questions after a lesson or before the next one? I feel I should be but can never think of any, even if I don't feel completely happy about the lesson, I just figure I need more practice.

I would definatley ask them about the possibility of having one instructor, that way they are more likely to be able to discuss your progress with you. I think I might do the same.

Good luck with it all, I hope you find a way that works for you!

Brooke :)

[stevelup]

To me, eight lessons with five instructors isn't the right way to be learning - especially at the beginning. I think you should demand a bit more consistency - you're the customer after all!

[mary meagher]

Findyourwings, its a real problem getting the dosh together for flying. BUT...
amazingly, January is often a good time with sometimes a high pressure lingering over the British Isles...ask a weather expert if there are other calm weeks over the winter....

Why? because you want to SAVE your money up and then fly five days in a row, or at least four, and then you will make real progress. With same instructor of course. Possibly several hours, with a lunch break, each day.

O yes it will cost a lot for that week, perhaps your bank manager would cooperate, or the flying club make a special arrangment, never hurts to ask.

What I am getting at is the best way to progress is to have a lot of instruction in a short time. Winter is often a good time because flying clubs are not often so busy in the winter. And light aircraft usually have HEATERS anyway! Further more as thermals are rare, the air is smoother, and the air is thicker, being colder, so aircraft performance is much better...Wright Brothers found that out right away. (Kitty Hawk in Jan. better than Ohio in July!)

Anyway, flying only once every two weeks with different instructors is guaranteed to make you feel worse than the frog in the well.

Good luck! Let us know how you get on.