PA-28 or PA-38?

[Evo7]

Anyone got strong feelings about which is better to learn on, the PA-28 or -38? So far, my lessons (both of them) have been in the Tomahawk, which is, as far as I can tell, fine. However, I can barely tell one end of an aeroplane from the other, so I thought I'd book the next two in the Warrior to see what the difference is. Cost is £20 more p/h, but given the cost in the first place that isn't such a big deal.

Anyone more experienced - i.e. pretty much everyone - got any thoughts about the two?

Cheers.

[SKYYACHT]

The only comment I would make, is that most schools regard the Cherokee/Warrior as a more complex aeroplane, and therefore would normally consiider a succesful check ride/GFT/NFT as sufficient evidence to allow you to fly BOTH the Warrior and the Traumahawk.....er, um , sorry, Tomahawk. If you do it the other way round, then a further check flight would probably be required, although dont quote me on that. Secondly, get familiar with the type you will fly most.....It is better IMHO to use the 4 seater, as you will probably be carrying pax? It gives more flexibility.

Anyhow, both are good solid aeroplanes. Have fun,

Tailwinds,


Sky

Down, three greens, turning final

[Toppers]

All I would say is save your money while you are training and stick with the Tomahawk. 50 hrs at £20 cheaper per hour is a lot of flying money saved while doing your licence. I learned in one and loved it. The £1000 saved would pay for an IMC rating too!

[matspart3]

Whilst I think it's good to fly a variety of types as you learn, I'd plump for the Tomahawk. Nothing whatsoever against the good old PA28, but the Tomahawk will save you cash over the course and it has a 'proper' stall.

[GRpr]

I would suggest the first half of your training in the Tomahawk, and then switching to the PA28 for the cross country work and tests.

Although not required in the UK, get your instructor to show you some full spins in the Tomahawk, and then try it yourself under his supervision. You won't regret it.

No spins allowed in the PA28.

[Simon W]

Before starting my PPL training I had a trial flight in the PA28. My instructor said that I should really learn in the PA38 because once I have mastered that then going to the PA28 should be a doddle. I noticed that the PA38 seemed alot more 'twitchy' than the PA28 and so should teach me better control instincts. Maybe I am talking crap?? Either way, I really like the PA38. First solo on Tuesday possibly if the weather permits. OH **** !

Regards,

Simon

PS. I'll just get checked out on the PA28 once my I have got my PPL.

[Evo7]

Some good thoughts chaps - thanks.

Toppers: Hadn't thought of the £20 a time in that sort of way. Good thinking.

And good luck, Simon W. Right now the thought of going solo scares the sh*t out of me ("Me, alone? in an aeroplane? With MY reputation? Whatever were they thinking...?" http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/eek.gif ) but that'll change. Hope the weather works out.


Oh, and why do people call it the Traumahawk? Just wondering... ;)

(Edited for general UBBcode ineptness)

[This message has been edited by Evo7 (edited 14 May 2001).]

[The Fokker's chocka ocker]

Traumahawk is just a nickname. Nothing to be scared of, honest little trainer.
Simon W's instructor is correct.
At the end of each week, tally your hours, multiply by 50 pounds then trot off to the bank to put this amount in your advanced training account.
The PA28 will be an easy and pleasant next stage.

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solly ocker she's chocka

[Gerund]

Hi Fokker! Thanks for your posting elsewhere!!

I think one reason the Tomahawk got the name Traumahawk is due to its spin characteristics. There were a number of fatal stall/spin accidents in the States with instructors on board. Also, from memory, if you read the flight manual, you will see that the potential loss of height per rotation is actually quoted - it's high!

There were two flow strip modifications, one set inboard, and one set outboard in response to the accidents. (I am bewildered as to how the outboard set helps - its a long, long way out. Anyone know?)

Anyway, these modifications tame the stall and spin characteristics. You will note in the manual that there are different stall speeds quoted dependent on whether the flow strips have been fitted or not. Without the flow strips there can be a viscious wing drop at the stall.

The Tomahawk is a fun plane to spin, but I have only done it on a plane fitted with both sets of flow strips. Not sure I would want to give it a go on one without.

Also, with two persons of medium weight, to have the weight in the utility category, means that you can't carry much fuel. Please don't spin the Tomahawk outside its utility envelope!!!

[This message has been edited by Gerund (edited 14 May 2001).]

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Do it all on a PA38, its probably the best 2 seat basic trainer commonly available and I have taught on them all. A nice option if you can afford it is to do all the PPL on a PA38 then do an IMC on a PA28 as they tend to be IFR equipped and you are combining a rating course with a type conversion course and then you can utilise the 4 seats for taking friends flying for petrol money.

Good luck,

WWW

[Aussie Andy]

Hi,

I agree with GRpr - start with the PA38, and then move on to the PA28 at a later stage.

I have nearly completed PPL at BAFC (Wycombe) where the fleet consists mainly of these two types. I found the PA38 a great trainer, and slightly cheaper. I soloed in it, and stuck with it up until the cross-countries.

I started with PA28 on the first cross country (the conversion is very straightforward). The benefits are:

a) PA28 is faster, and therefore not necessarily more expensive on a long distance flight (this has been proven when another guy doing the same X-country as me on the same day at the same time, and he got back later than me and his bill was slightly higher!);

b) When I get my PPL, I don't want to fly alone! I want to be able to take my wife, kids, friends etc. So you'll eventually need to convert to a 4-seater if you have this in mind anyway.

c) The PA28's (at least those at BAFC) are better equipped for X-country flights. They have DME (not essential, but handy), an ADF with a timer/stopwatch built-in (again not essential, but handy), and a HEADING BUG on the DI, which I find invaluable! One less thing to remember! (having said that, I have once or twice set it to the wrong spot on the dial - but that's what the gross error check is for, right!?).

All in all, I have found both Piper a/c fabulous and reckon they are a great choice of trainer.

Hope this helps,


Andy

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"Andy sang, Andy watched, Andy waited 'til his billy boiled..." (It was written for me!)

[This message has been edited to fix the typo - yes I meant that PA28 is faster! (edited 14 May 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Aussie Andy (edited 14 May 2001).]

[HoldAlpha]

Definitley PA28 ..... I flew both during my training and the PA28 is certainly a much friendlier aircraft to fly than its PA38 relation. If you can afford it, go PA28, it will teach you how to land properly as well, because the flare will seem to go on for ever during the early stages of your landing training. QXC's are also much less stressful since the PA28 is a very stable aircraft unlike the PA38 which constantly twitches about. 8-)

Aussie Andy I must correct you on one important point :

re: PA38 faster .... Andy, the PA28 is faster, its a bigger aircraft with a bigger engine, it climbs at 79 IAS, descends at 70 IAS and cruises happily at 100 IAS (or even a little more). The PA38 (if memory serves) will only climb at 70 IAS, descend at 70 IAS and is much happier cruising around 90 or 95 at a push. Your account of "the other guy" could be influenced by many factors, and you have not taken these into account from what I can tell.

The PA28 is great, especially at the later stages of the course. However, if you do train on a PA28, I would strongly advise everyone to get their instructor to take them for a SSAT lesson in a PA38, it is useful to see how different aircraft react.

TTFN

[Simon W]

I think Aussie Andy merely made a typing mistake. I do believe he was referring to the PA28 as being the better aircraft for cross countries because it was faster.

Regards,

Simon

[Aussie Andy]

Thanks Simon, yep - it was a typo, duly corrected!

Andy :-)

[matspart3]

If you want to know why it's affectionally known as a Traumahawk look over your right shoulder at the tail when you stall or spin!...certainly traumatised me!

[HoldAlpha]

Aussie Andy ..... sorry for being so quick off the ball mate 8)

matspart3 ... indeed, the PA38 tail section is rumored to develop "interesting" flight characteristics whilst in a spin. I've never looked back myself .... so I can't say for sure.

[LowNSlow]

It also traumatised owners with a string of expensive AD's.

[loglickychops]

28. do it

[Jolly Tall]

Anyone care to elaborate on the PA38 tail's interesting spin characteristics?

[Girl Flyday]

Aparently during a spin the tail of the PA38 flaps from side to side like a fish on speed - not that I ever turned around to look at it, as I was too preoccupied with trying to convert the view of 'all green' out front to my preferred 'green at the bottom, blue on top'...

But I really did enjoy flying the Tomahawk and think it's a great little trainer - and being a glutton for punishment even did my IMC/Night ratings in one too! :)

[matspart3]

Jolly Tall
Everything aft of your seat wobbles vigourously with audible bangs, twangs and crashes! There's a wing drop every time with varying degrees of savagarey from aircraft to aircraft. I'm told the wibbly wobbly tail is worse in the spin (I chickened out and did spinning in a Robin 2160 instead)
Happy memories of the Tomahawk though, including my first solo during my lunchbreak on 29th Feb'96

[Jolly Tall]

Matspart3: I did all my training on a Robin HR200. I saw a 2160 recently - looks like an HR200 with a larger tail. Fortunately the HR200 is not permitted to spin, so I've never done one. What is the 2160 like to fly compared to the 200?

GirlFlyday: I have only done 1hr in a PA38, but enjoyed it, although it seems to need more rudder control than the Robin. Presumably you did your IMC at Manchester (great web-site by the way). I am toying with the idea of doing my IMC rating at an airfield which uses PA38s. A good idea I wonder?

[Girl Flyday]

Thanks, Jolly Tall!

But yes, being the masochistic type I loved doing my IMC rating in a Tomahawk - because if you can do it in THAT, anything else is going to be a piece of cake! (Most other aircraft tending to be more stable)

But hey - I always did like a challenge! ;)

[HoldAlpha]

matspart3 may be exagerating a little bit too much ... either that or his training aircraft wasn't as well maintained as the one I flew
8-)

[Evo7]

Thanks all, lots of good advice here.

I think I'm going to take a couple of 'curiosity' lessons on the PA-28 - it'll make me feel more of a real pilot if I've flown more than just the PA-38 ;) - but after that I'll head back to the Tomahawk at least until I start the cross country stuff, some time in the dim and distant future.

Cheers :)

[Aussie Andy]

Evo, You'll be doing the cross-countries BEFORE YOU KNOW IT!

Andy :-)

[HoldAlpha]

Best of luck with your training Evo7 .... once you've had your "curiosity" lessons, do come back and let us know your feelings (good/bad) about the PA28.

I'm sure you'll thoroughly enjoy it.

[Shanwick Shanwick]

A friend of a friend of a friend in the U.S. lost part of the elevator whilst spinning a PA38 a couple of years ago. He was testing the aircraft as part of it's certification and was wearing a parachute as apparently failure is not uncommon. There's a US manufacturer produces tail parachutes specifically for the type.

Many years ago I owned a PA28-140 (cleared for spinning!) Cherokee but also regularly flew the Terrorhawk. There's no comparison between the two. The 28's relatively luxury when you compare it to the horrible 38.



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hhhiiisssssccrrrraaaacckkkllesssshhhhhh

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Look.

Listen.

I have been a flying instructor for many years and taught on dozens of types. I've spun a PA38 tomahawk more times than some of the people here have actually flown.

Yes the tail twists. As per the design spec. Yes yes the skin flex makes a noise when it does so but then - its in the design spec.

The UK CAA have approved the PA38 for spinning with a suitable harness. That *really* is all you need to know.

Now as for the rest. PA28's cost about 25 quid an hour more and you'll never make that up with the 15kts higher cruise speed so they won;t save you money.

At the early stages of traing i.e. all of the PPL you want to be gaining BASIC handling skills which apply throughout your career. Therefore I want to see NO DME, an a/c that demands constant attention to attitude maintenance and that stalls with decent amounts of wing drop. This is the PA38.

Do you know how they designed the Tomahawk?

Well, they sent out a questionaire to EVERY registered flying instructor in the USA (early 70's) and asked them to rank over 100 attributes in order of preference.

This is just one reason why the PA38 is the only common training aircraft that allows torrents of hot air to the feet whilst cold outside air blasts your face...

This is an aircraft largely deigned by Flying Instructors. Those 'Bad Points' other students mention are there for a reason. If you can master the PA38 - and lets face it we ar enot talking rocket science here - you'll have a good foundation for future higher performance types. Frankly the PA28 Warrior (my office for all of last year) is designed for big fat Hank the Dumbass Yank (no offence to Americans) to tool around the Kansas prairies in whilst shovelling his last Big Mac down his throat whilst Mary-Ellen tries to tune the ADF to the local Country Music W.A.F.M. station. Its toooooo easy.

Thats my tuppence h'penny anyhows.

WWW

[A and C]

Thank you WWW for the balanced post on the PA 38 after years instructing on them i agree with your every word ,in my opinion it is a very good trainer .

[On Reserves]

Just got back into a Tomahawk for the first time since I did my ab-initio, Great little aeroplane. It is good fun and cheap. An extra 20 kt or two seats will not help you learn the basics any faster - I say GO THE TOMAHAWK !!

[Cough]

200Hrs 28, 50Hrs 38.

Go with WWW's advice. Tomahawk is great. With the extra dosh you save in hiring it, buy everybody within 2nm a beer when you go solo! (and invite me first!)

Good luck!

CCCcccc...ough

[This message has been edited by Cough (edited 17 May 2001).]

[Pro_Pilot]

I have been flying the BE-77 Beechcraft skipper which is basicly identical to the tomahawk. Since i have passed my GFPT test which allowed me to move onto the warrior, I have never looked back. I find the warrior a much more stable aircraft with much more power to play with. If your looking to do NAVS, i recommend the warrior by far.

[Speedbird252]

Hi Evo, Warrior all the way!! The Tomahawk is a great aircraft, but it is twitchy at low speeds, and likes to stall much easier than the Warrior. Is also more likely to drop a wing as a result. The PA28 is more money as you say, but i reckon its the better aircraft to learn in.

.....see ya over Selsey......

[Evo7]

Hey Speedbird!

As long as seeing me over Selsey is part of HASELL, and not the Oh F*ck! kind ;)

I've got two lessons in the PA-28 coming up, but I'm planning on taking the Tomahawk out for a bit after that. Figure that I'm probably better off spending some time in the harder of the two, but given how hard it is getting to book anything on a Saturday afternoon at the moment, I'll take what ever I can get. Addicted......

I'll get a reply to your mail ASAP, by the way. Just been busy. That beer is just waiting to be served, too :)

All the best,

Evo.

[100LL]

Wasn't the Skipper designed by the same person as the Tomahawk,Who then Ironed out all the Tomahawks flaws. Read somewhere that the original Pa38 was designed with 11 full ribs in the wings and the production model had only 4 full ribs and the rest were only half ribs ,Hence weaker wing and it flexes. The only real problem i find on the Tomahawk is the stupid trim system ,That big spring that bounces around in turb. I did most of my PPL in a Tomahawk dam fine Aircraft.A nice Black example.. katana for me!!!

[Mr moto]

One's as dull as the other.
Get your licence on the cheapest aircraft available then fly as many different types as you can.
A tailwheel course will open many new types to you and they perform and handle better than nosewheel aircraft.
Robins are nice, as are Slingsby's.

[Speedbird252]

No problem Evo, Im not going to start finishing my PPL till August, but I will fly every week then, weather permitting till Im done!! Gonna do My IMC on the back of it!!

Listen, I know we are waiting for the perfect day for this Beer, if you want, e-mail me, and we can meet up anyway, rain or shine. Im sure we can find loads to talk about!

Regards my friend.

[Cusco]

I agree with everything WWW said about the Tomahawk. O K, some of its characteristics are a bit unforgiving but with constant attention to detail (and isn't that what learning to fly is all about) it won't bite you and you'll end up a safe and skilled pilot.

I've seen the tail waggle in a spin but what the hell the thing was designed for it.

Save your money, go for the Tomahawk and convert when you get your PPL. I converted to the PA28 Cherokee, the C182, and had my IMC in a Warrior all within 25 hours of the PPL, thanks to the tomahawk.(and my instructors of course).

If you can land a PA38 you can land anything.


Cheers

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Cusco

[Chilli Monster]

Evo

Did my PPL, IMC and Night in a Traumahawk. Now the proud owner of a chunk of a Warrior. Save your money on the cheaper aircraft whilst you're learning - it's a good aircraft for that. Fly it and a 4 seater enough to stay current in both (alternate months or flights). That way you keep the costs down a little bit but have access to a 4 seater when you need it.

CM

[Bouncy Landing]

Many moons ago when spinning was still part of teh PPL I did all my basic training plus night & some of IMC in a PA38 and it was superb. Yes a PA28 is more stable, but as WWW said surely you want something to hone your skills on.

Who learns to drive in an automatic car?

[Final 3 Greens]

WWW

I find your comments on the PA38 very sensible.

Your racist slur on Americans (by implication) I find most offensive.

[Bouncy Landing]

So Americans are a distinct "race" are they? They seem a pretty mixed bag to me......!

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

F3G, no friend thats called Banter not a slur. Probably wasted on Americans.

Do you know what Irony is Hank? Yeah its like Coppery and Brassery but made of Iron...

WWW

[Final 3 Greens]

WWW

"Pray enter
You are learned Europeans and we worse
Than ignorant Americans"

The City Madam (1658)III.iii

[Final 3 Greens]

Bouncy Landing

The Oxford dictionary gives a definition of race as "a group of people connected by common descent."

So unless we wish to get into an argument of semantics, I consider my comment fit for purpose, if not a uniquely correct definition for I do respect others opnions and perspectives.

F3G

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Yeah, whatever.

WWW

ps just where do Americnas get off convicting Jemma Bush for drinking a beer in public at the age of 18 and sending her on community service plus a fine plus mandatory attendence of an Alcohol Awareness Course - Jeez! Old enough to drive, be a parent, fight for your country, vote and own a veritable arsenal of heavy duty automatic firearms but you go order a Bud with your pizza and its the downtown slammer for you! Plucked up if you ask me.

[Bouncy Landing]

F3G

I'd challenge that Americans are "a group of people connected by common descent".

My understanding is that they are a widely disperate people, from all over the world.
Anyway enough said, well off the topic of a great little trainer, the PA38.

[john_tullamarine]

All aeroplanes twist and groan as you load them up. The lovely little machine I learnt on years ago (Millicer's Victa Airtourer) had the tailend tin gauge increased to ease marketing concerns about the extent of oil canning - so long as the relevant maintenance and inspections are done on the Tomahawk and the pilots operate within the anticipated design envelope, then it shouldn't be a concern if the tail deflects during a spin.

More importantly, to learn on a comparatively demanding aircraft makes a great deal of sense. In my insular view of the world, I think we all should still look at spins and basic aeros - even if just for the confidence building value .....

[Code Blue]

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">I think we all should still look at spins and basic aeros - even if just for the confidence building value .....</font>

JT's recommendation is one with which I heartily agree. On the left hand side of the Atlantic it seems there is a demand for this sort of training because:-

a). It is hard to find.
b). You pay through the nose for it if you can find it.

For developing handling confidence, whatever you're flying, the mastery of the spin, for example, goes a long way.

PS: Whilst this thread started as a debate over differing models of Pipers, what percentage of UK trainers are Pipers?

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[email protected]

[batemanisbad4u]

Final three greens, if you can't stand the heat....well you klnow the rest....or DO YOU?

[Evo7]

Just to add something of a postscript to this thread, before it gets sent to Jetblast.... ;)

I've now had a lesson in a PA-28 and I'm still confused. The problem, you see, is that I had a great lesson - things just worked (instructor might disagree ;) ), and I rattled through everything we had covered in the briefing. Even had enough time left to run through some new stuff; a circuit-rejoin, followed by a ciruit and approach to land, although the last bit was pretty pi$$ poor, TBH. Compared to my (few) lessons on the Tomahawk I just sailed through things.

Now this may just be that I'm getting better at this flying thing. Hard to tell after one go. I've got another lesson on the Warrior to see what happens.
I fully agree with what has been said about the merits of the Tomahawk, and I'd generally agree that it is better to learn on the harder aircraft if it makes do things better in the long run. We'll see if this difference in pace carries on, though, because that may make me think again. Think I may be asking more questions.....

Many thanks everybody for your thoughts. They are very much appreciated.

All the best,

Evo.