ATPL downgrade to PPL or not?

[FlyingGoat]

I've retired from a commercial career and deciding whether to downgrade to a PPL or keep my ATPL up and running. I was intending to do a bit of touring in the UK and France on SEP types - nothing too ambitious. Has anyone been in this position recently and maybe give me the downsides of losing my ATPL? Only needing a Class 2 medical would be an advantage......

[mad_jock]

Well you can fly privately on an ATPL on a class 2 anyway. Did it myself not 3 months ago.

Personally I would keep it going, the Green book gets certain types of people to leave you in peace were as with a poo brown one they would feel its there duty to stick thier nose in.

[FlyingGoat]

Good point, thanks. Unfortunately I managed to let the ATPL expire. No problem about a reissue, but I have to have a Class 1 for the reissue, and then I can go for a Class 2 next time. So the Class 2 I had recently would be wasted. My own fault.....

[UV]

Does an ATPL still include the privileges of a permanent IMC rating? I know it used to.

Did you ever hold an old Lifetime PPL? If so, "they" will give you an updated one for free on the basis of your currrent ATPL, which would then not need to be renewed. I have just done this.

[UV]

Oops just read your reply which crossed in the post...

[S-Works]

Only a UK CAA ATPL has embedded IMCr privileges. A JAA one does not.

[FlyingGoat]

Interesting about the IMC - I'll ask. One slight problem with asking 'them' is however helpful they are (and they have been, without exception) every time I call (or visit) I get a different answer. LASORS isn't the cure, either.

The lifetime PPL is a dark area. My original was issued in 1966 and they've junked their records, assuming, I guess, we've all gone to seed. I'll persist.

[mad_jock]

I would expect that to issue the IMC they will want a flight test if not done off the back of a SPA-IR. Which might be an idea to do anyway just the once to get your head around partial panel again. Then its just a case of paying your money to have it issued.

Personally I would keep it. You never know you might get the urge to do the FI course.

Things are up in the air just now with the new regs about to come in. My gut feel is that you would be at more of an advantage holding a ATPL with SEP and SPA-IR-SE than you would with a PPL and IMCR.

[FlyingGoat]

Many thanks, Mad-Jock.

Just 'phoned the CAA and they confirmed I've got an embedded IMC with my CAA ATPL, so that looks a reasonable option.

Lifetime PPL looks dubious, and they'd have to check their microfiche records, as I'm not sure whether I can find the original.

They suggested I write in documenting exactly what I have, what I want, and they will make an offer. Depending, that is, on EASA.

EASA?

[Tagron]

Flying Goat, I went through this process last year. My original PPL was issued in 1969. I was informed by someone I considered to speak with authority that this would have made it a lifetime PPL, but, like you, I could not find the original to prove whether this was correct. However CAA insisted that my PPL, by its issue date, would have been a Board of Trade licence, and these were all of limited validity period. Maybe this is why I had not kept the original ?

For better or worse I opted for the new PPL and so far I have found it adequate for my needs. I agree that you can get differing opinions from within CAA and LASORS does not cover all scenarios. Let us know how you get on !

[BillieBob]

Did you ever hold an old Lifetime PPL? If so, "they" will give you an updated one for free on the basis of your currrent ATPL, which would then not need to be renewed.The 'lifetime' PPLs (and all other national licences) are only valid until 8 April 2012 by which time they will have to be converted to the JAA equivalent. After April 2012 only licences issued in accordance with EASA Part FCL (which includes JAA licences) will be valid.

[FlyingGoat]

Thanks, Tagron. I'll certainly post what happens.

I realise it's a long shot, but my original PPL, issued in Sept. 1965 was No. 71723. Don't suppose anyone around with similar date/no.? Might save chasing the CAA's microfiche records. Looking at BillieBob's post, it may be short-lived anyway.

[pulse1]

I have No 79699 issued in 1968. It is not clear that it is a lifetime PPL but, when I revalidated it after a 23 year break in 1997, the new one states clearly "for the holder's lifetime" but has a new number.

The original PPL looks like it was renewed after 5 years, in 1973, for another 5 years. I don't remember having to pay anything at the time. probably just satisfied them that I had kept up my C of E for the five years. If you didn't, you needed a new test.

[fred737]

FG,

I was in exactly the same position as you. I have kept my ATPL going after retirement but have Class 2 medicals. I had to renew it in 2008, so that year I had a Class 1 medical, paid the CAA a fortune and kept the ATPL going. (I must admit one reason for doing so is to keep my FAA 61.75 licence going and that is based on my ATPL.) I do a MEP LPC and SPA IR every year to keep the ratings in my ATPL current. I also keep the SEP validated.

What will happen after 2012 I have absolutely no idea!!!!!!

Fred

[fred737]

BB

The 'lifetime' PPLs (and all other national licences) are only valid until 8 April 2012 by which time they will have to be converted to the JAA equivalent

My UK CAA ATPL is valid until 21/02/2014 not 08/04/2012

Fred

[Whopity]

My UK CAA ATPL is valid until 21/02/2014 not 08/04/2012
It may say that, but it will not be valid after 08/04/2012 no matter what date it might have. Even the Lifetime one comes to an end at that point. Prior to that date, a UK CPL or ATPL includes IMC privileges but that rating is scheduled for the bin as well!

[UV]

It may say that, but it will not be valid after 08/04/2012 no matter what date it might have. Even the Lifetime one comes to an end at that point

Whoopity
Only the other week "they" gave me a renewed Lifetime PPL because my ATPL runs out in January.

Are you telling me that it wont be valid for life even though it clearly says, under item IX Validity, "..remain in force for the holder's lifetime..."

Why on earth doesn't it say ...valid until 08/04/2012??

Do you know where this is stated? In Lasors or elsewhere?

Thanks

[BillieBob]

It is in Article 4 of the 'Cover Regulation' to EASA Part-FCL, which is itself Annex I to Regulation (EC) 216/2008 (The Basic Regulation).

Article 4
National pilot licences and certificates

1. Any pilot licence, including any associated ratings, certificates, authorisations and/or qualifications issued or recognised by a Member State in accordance with the JAA requirements and procedures before the entry into force of this Regulation, shall be deemed to have been issued in accordance with this Regulation.

2. By 8 April 2012, holders of national pilot licences, including any associated ratings, certificates, authorisations and/or qualifications issued in accordance with ICAO Annex 1, shall have had their national licences converted into pilot licences, ratings or certificates specified in this Regulation by the competent authority of the Member State that issued the national licence.
It is also interesting to note this in the accompanying Explanatory Note:
The Cover Regulation defines the general applicability of Part-FCL and its other Annexes .... and proposes transition measures for the applicability of Part-FCL. However, it needs to be noted that the definition of a maximum applicability date for the Implementing Rules for pilot licensing in Article 70 of the Basic Regulation has limited not only the periods available for transition, but also the type of possible transition measures. Indeed, since the Basic Regulation establishes that the Implementing Rules for pilot licensing shall be applicable no later than 8 April 2012, any transition measures going beyond that date need to be opt-outs.
Will the UK provincial government seek an opt-out beyond 2012? I wouldn't bet on it.

[fred737]

I think I will sit tight till the beloved CAA tell me the the date of validity they put in my licence is invalid and tell me when and how to apply for an EASA Licence.

Fred

[Whopity]

Sadly, I doubt that they will bother.

[fred737]

Whopity,
In that case a whole heap of UK aircraft (commercial and private) will, in EASA terms, being flying illegally on 09/04/12.

Can you imagine the buraucratic shambles there will be in trying to issue EASA licences to everybody whose national licence is currently valid till beyond 08/04/12, particularly as UK CAA licences are still being issued.
Fred

[S-Works]

It is the reason that the CAA have been writing to everyone and suggesting the take up a JAA licence now. JAA licences will automatically be carried into EASA licences. Therefore the only people who will be flying illegally will be those who have ignored for YEARS the fact they will need to swap to a JAA licence on the grounds of the age old argument about a UK CAA licence being valid for life.

I have a UK CAA licence and a JAA licence as I was wise enough to think ahead.


UK CAA licences are not still being issued! They have not issued one in nearly a decade!!! The UK are issuing JAA FCL compliant licences. JAA FCL compliant licences will automatically become EASA Part FCL licences. When the licence is due for renewal they will automatically get an EASA one sent out but prior to that a JAA FCL licence will be deemed to be a Part FCL licence.

[fred737]

UK CAA licences are not still being issued! They have not issued one in nearly a decade!!! The UK are issuing JAA FCL compliant licences. JAA FCL compliant licences will automatically become EASA Part FCL licences. When the licence is due for renewal they will automatically get an EASA one sent out but prior to that a JAA FCL licence will be deemed to be a Part FCL licence.
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Well in that case how come my UK CAA ATPL (which is in my hands as I write this), says Date of issue 21/92/2009 and Validity 21/02/2014.

I have received no letter from the CAA suggesting I take up a JAA licence.

Fred

[S-Works]

Does it say issued in accordance with the JAR FCL on the front and have the words in Section IX that state by application of JAR FCL 1.015(a)(1) the licence holder is entitled to exercise privileges on aircraft registered in any member state?

The UK have not issued a national licence in nearly a decade since becoming a full JAA Member state. There was a transition period where national licences were issued with expiry dates as we converted to JAA. But a licence ISSUED in 2009 is not a National licence.

[fred737]

Does it say issued in accordance with the JAR FCL on the front and have the words in Section IX that state by application of JAR FCL 1.015(a)(1) the licence holder is entitled to exercise privileges on aircraft registered in any member state?

No it says (Top line) United Kingdom Civil Aviation Authority
CAA Logo
2nd Line: United Kingdom Airline Transport Pilot's Licence (Aeroplanes)
3rd line: Issued in accordance with ICAO standards

have the words in Section IX that state by application of JAR FCL 1.015(a)(1) the licence holder is entitled to exercise privileges on aircraft registered in any member state?



No Section IX states:
"Validity:

This licence is to be re-issued not later than 21/02/2014

The privilidges of the licence shall be exercised only if the holder has a valid medical certificate for the required privilege"

So to say that The UK have not issued a national licence in nearly a decade since becoming a full JAA Member state
is, I am afraid, a load of spheroid objects.

[sycamore]

I concur with Fred ,on ATPL(H),and CPL (FW)..

[S-Works]

I am sorry but I am struggling to believe this. You are telling me that you gained a NEW ATPL licence in the UK in 2009 and were not given a JAR one?

[BillieBob]

ANO Article 82 states "The CAA must not grant....a United Kingdom Commercial Pilot's Licence (Aeroplanes) or a United Kingdom Airline Transport Pilot's Licence (Aeroplanes) to any person who was not on 30th June 2002 respectively the holder of such a licence" It is more likely that fred's ATPL was re-issued on 21/2/2009 having been initially issued prior to June 2002.

Unless a UK national licence is converted to the JAA equivalent by 8 April 2012 it will cease to be valid on that date. Since the Cover Regulation states that the issuing Authority shall convert all national licences, what is more likely to happen is that the CAA will simply cancel the UK ATPL and issue a JAA equivalent in its place.

Pity those people who hold a UK ATPL but do not have 500 hrs of multi-pilot time - they will only be able to get a JAA/EASA CPL. It is not clear at present whether, or for how long, they will retain exam credit for the subsequent issue of an EASA ATPL.

[fred737]

BX

My ATPL was originally issued eons ago, however Part 11 of Part xi of my licence says

Type of Licence, date of initial issue and country code.

ATPL(A) 21/02 2009 UK


(My underlining and block)

It might be a revalidation of my ATPL but the wording is quite specific. It says date of initial issue. That is why I was taking issue (!) with your statement that the CAA had not issued National Licences in over a decade.

[S-Works]

No you were being a **** and playing stupid games. The CAA have not issued a CAA national licence in a decade. You have just had an existing licence re-issued.

My CPL was renewed in march and the initial issue date us given as march, it is just the wording.

[FlyingGoat]

Having discussed this with the CAA at length, I'm going for renewal of my original non-JAA ATPL, which gives the embedded IMC.

If and when EASA comes in I've been told the IMC rating will be transferred, but will have a renewal date, rather than being embedded. There appears to be a good chance of a delay before EASA comes in.

I realise this contradicts much of what has been advised above, but will report back on what I end up with.

[FlyingGoat]

I renewed my old 10yr. UK ATPL today (it expired 2008), with Class 1 Med., R/T theory pass and SEP skills test. On the front it states:

'Issued in accordance with ICAO standards' and inside: Validity: 'This licence is to be re-issued not later than 25/08/2015'.

Date of Initial Issue 26/08/10, which I don't quite understand, or am I being thick?

CAA Licence and Medical guys couldn't have been more helpful.

Question (and thread creep): would this entitle me to fly a French-registered a/c in France? Or can I only fly in France with a UK-reg. a/c?

[Adrian N]

A CAA PPL is just fine for operating an F-reg aircraft in France (or anywhere else, for that matter), so I guess they'll be equally happy with a CAA ATPL.

[BillieBob]

A CAA PPL is just fine for operating an F-reg aircraft in France (or anywhere else, for that matter), so I guess they'll be equally happy with a CAA ATPL.Absolutely not!! A JAA PPL issued by the UK CAA might be fine for operating an F-reg in France but a UK national PPL would have to be validated by the DGAC, as would a UK national ATPL.

A UK national ATPL re-issued on 26/08/2010 is, under current UK legislation, valid for 5 years and will, therefore, be due for re-issue no later than 25/08/2015. However, flight crew licensing is due to be brought under EU legislation (which supersedes UK legislation) on 8 April 2012, from which date all licences will have to be issued in accordance with EASA Part FCL. JAA licences will be deemed to have been issued in accordance with EASA but UK national licences will not. Consequently, whatever is written in current UK national licences, they will cease to be valid for use in any aircraft with an EASA CofA from 8 April 2012. Welcome to the brave new world!

[Adrian N]

Not according to the DGAC. When I moved to France and started renting here, both clubs I joined wrote to the DGAC to ask, and both got a reply saying that my UK CAA PPL was no problem and can be considered equivalent to a French or JAA one.