Stuck in the circuit [Archive]

Juno78

27th Jul 2010, 19:58

Hi guys and girls,

I'm hoping for a bit of reassurance / inspiration as I'm starting to get a bit frustrated with my PPL training!

I've been taking lessons since March 2009. I've been doing circuits since July 2009, and I'm starting to wonder whether I'm ever going to move on. Unfortunately, as I imagine is the case for a lot of people, I can't afford to fly every day, and I'm generally managing two lessons a month, occasionally three. Over the winter I had a lot cancelled due to the weather, and so overall my circuits have been pretty sporadic.

I totted up the hours in my log book this evening, and of my 25 hours so far, 16 have been spent flying circuits without yet having soloed. It's not that I'm worried per se about being "slower than average" or anything like that, but to be quite honest I'm just getting a bit bored and frustrated of flying around the same bit of airspace every time. So I suppose I have two questions:

1. Is that actually a fairly normal number of hours to be spending in the circuit before reaching solo, and it just feels like a long time because it's been spread out over the course of a year? I'm generally a quick learner and I'm fairly well co-ordinated (my other hobby is kart racing) so I wouldn't generally expect to take longer than average, but I suppose you never know what you are and aren't going to be good at!

2. Is it actually feasible to learn and make progress in such a sporadic fashion or do you really need a more concentrated period of time, and am I therefore just wasting money by having one lesson and then two or three weeks off? If so I'd be inclined to take a break, save up a few grand and then do one or two lessons a week for a while.

I appreciate that the monetary situation is going to have to get better if I want to do this as a long-term activity - fortunately I'm in a career where my salary should go up by a decent amount in the next few years (I'm a recently-qualified solicitor), so it's more a question of what I should do at this point. If the answer is go gliding for three years and come back to engines, then fair enough.

Any wisdom much appreciated! I'm going to talk to my CFI about it this weekend, but I always think the more points of view you have the better :)

EDIT oh, and I fly at a small airfield so no time to speak of hanging about waiting for a slot - I usually manage 5 or 6 circuits for an hour of logbook time.

robin

27th Jul 2010, 20:07

What is your instructor saying?

If its because you are flying sporadically, book a block of sessions close together.

But we all have periods where progress is slow. Sometimes it might be worthwhile moving away from a task that has become boring or frustrating and have a few lessons doing something else.

smitn05

27th Jul 2010, 20:17

Hi Juno

My recollections of my PPL training were similar to yours .... although I think I was doing a solo at around the point you are at now, possibly slightly sooner.

I was also only flying every other week or so, even took an 18 month break in the middle due to money constraints. It is perfectly possible with average ability to progress at this pace.

As soon as you get the solo out of the way, then it all starts to get more interesting with the Navexs etc, so I would suggest that when you speak to the CFI you find out how they think you are progressing towards the first solo. Maybe suggest that they tailor a few lessons with a small navex to another airfield to do circuits there or something similar ... to keep the interest up.

Also type of aircraft flown can be important. I seem to recall I could nail a low wing aircraft in the circuit really easily but put me in a cessna and I was all over the place, maybe even worth trying an hour in a different aircraft if for nothing else other than a change. This might be frowned upon as not the quickest way to achieve a solo, but if it gets you past the boredom bit to the interesting stuff then a couple of extra hours on the course wont be wasted.

Keep it up .... nipping over to Le Touquet for lunch makes it worthwhile ;-)

The Old Fat One

27th Jul 2010, 20:25

The worrying thing about your post...as implied by Robin...is the absence of comment on your instructor's view.

Your sporadic training may be a factor, but many people do the same and make somewhat quicker progress. If you are stuck or struggling on a particular aspect of your flying, or on several aspects, your instructor would surely have let you know what the problems are, and given you strategy's for overcoming them.

If this hasn't happened (which I would find hard to believe) your alarm bells (re the quality of training you are getting) should be clanging loudly.

I am NOT implying this is case; I'm merely suggesting, your debriefs should be covering your problems and adressing possible solutions. I would have thought a short burst of concentrated training would have been a reasonable starting point?????

mad_jock

27th Jul 2010, 20:37

16 hours in the circuit!!!

Go and find a instructor thats gets as bored as I do in the circuit.

then go out of the circuit and recap all the basic exercises.

Do loades of circuits at altitude aiming for a field practising the check s and configuration changes etc. Then go back to have a crack at landing the thing.

I would suggest a change of instructor is in order though.

Fuji Abound

27th Jul 2010, 20:40

1. I think anyone is going to do "better" by having the lessons closer together. Now I know you said you can afford on average around three a month. If possible see if you can perhaps book a morning and afternoon slot one day and a third slot within a day or two of the first two,
2. Circuits get boring, and learning should be fun, particularly if you are taking your time. Tell your instructor you are getting bored and ask if you can cover some of the other aerial work away from the circuit even if this means your PPL takes a few hours longer. In fact you might find this helps you with your circuits,
3. Beg, borrow or steal some P2 trips with qualified club members - you will be amazed how much help flying with others can be in helping you get your own circuits together. Good landings derive from seeing the "right" approach perspective time after time. Ideally fly with another club member who rents or owns the same or a similiar aircraft to that in which you are training,
4. Book one lesson on a day you happen to know your instructor is away or booked with someone else. Just sometimes the chemistry between you and your instructor is wrong. You might find you get on better with a different instructor and make better progress. After all you have got nothing to lose.

Jan Olieslagers

27th Jul 2010, 21:02

I'm afraid I can't agree with point 3: I did take a couple of trips as P2 but, even though they were fun in their own way, they added little to my learning as I was "on the wrong side" i.e. in the right-hand seat which completely alienated me from learning anything.

Point 1 I can certainly confirm: we all have our limitations, financial not the least, but whatever lessons you can afford will be more effective if they are close in time. Better to have three in a weekend, and then nothing for a month. However, to get 3 lessons flown, one would have to book 5 or 6 most times of the year, given the unpredictable wx.

Most of all I wish to confirm point 4: my final "aha-erlebnis" come from an instructor I had never flown with before, and he only said what others had said before him, but he said it in the right words and at the right time. Sheer luck, I reckon, but the trick was done and that's what counts.

Fuji Abound

27th Jul 2010, 21:14

Jan - yes I would agree point 3 is controversial - and I did wonder whether to include it. If you have piloted from the right seat you will know that the perspective looks a little different - the first few hours quite a bit different. However you really start to notice the difference half way down final AND you notice it far more if you are flying the aircraft rather than watching someone else flying. (or at least that is my experience). For that reason I included 3 because I have found, and found myself, that it was very helpful. Ask a pilot who has never flown an aircraft right seat before to fly a circuit, approach and landing and 9/10 will fly the circuit and top of the approach fine - it only then starts to get a little ragged in my experience.

It may well not suite everyone, and, for those who have tried, you might have found it was unhelpful.

I would be interested to read others thoughts who have tried.

Jan Olieslagers

27th Jul 2010, 21:24

The perspective difference was the easiest, and the least unexpected. What I remember putting me off balance was that the flaps handle, trim wheel, throttle, &C were suddenly under my "other" hand; i.e. I had to search for them and as a beginner one doesn't have time for that in the circuit; at least this beginner didn't.
But I am as curious as you to read other experiences.

bern444

27th Jul 2010, 21:30

Long ago I had the same problem - endless hours in the circuit till I thought that I was just no good at flying. I went to the CFI and said that I thought I'd give up and he said "no, book a double slot next week and I'm sure you'll manage it". And lo - I went solo, and it was a complete anti-climax, because I was no better that week than I had been for the last few (I didn't teach flying but I did teach skills with quite similar needs)

It took a while to work out that the school hadn't been entirely honest with me, but when I worked it out, I moved away smartly.

B

Fuji Abound

27th Jul 2010, 21:36

Jan - I think we are at cross purposes. I didnt mean the poster should fly the circuit from the right seat, just spend some time watching another pilot doing the flying and enjoying hopefully a free right seat ride. Flying the aircraft from the right seat I agree will just confuse you and really would be a very poor idea.

mad_jock

27th Jul 2010, 21:48

I think Bern has hit the nail on the head though.....

It took a while to work out that the school hadn't been entirely honest with me, but when I worked it out, I moved away smartly

robin

27th Jul 2010, 21:49

The other thing is not to worry about the idea of solo. Sometimes the pressure of the expectation of going solo degrades your performance.

Another factor is a lack of mental preparation prior to the flight. I like to get to the airfield a good hour before my flight so I can get into 'flight mode'. There is an interesting book called the 'Inner Game of Tennis' that explains a good technique of imagining the perfect outcome before you do it.

A while back I was converting a fairly experienced pilot to my aircraft and he had a lot of trouble relaxing. He would rush up to the airfield and start to get ready to fly before he'd calmed down from the journey.

Finally, I decided one day that the best thing was not to fly, but to go for a coffee, to talk through the flight in some detail before we went flying. He did some of the best landings I'd seen.

But don't pressure yourself

gpn01

27th Jul 2010, 21:51

I appreciate that the monetary situation is going to have to get better if I want to do this as a long-term activity - fortunately I'm in a career where my salary should go up by a decent amount in the next few years (I'm a recently-qualified solicitor), so it's more a question of what I should do at this point. If the answer is go gliding for three years and come back to engines, then fair enough.

Try gliding...and in three years? Stay with gliding! It'll offer far more challenges than power flying (which is fine if you're into following needles, procedures and constantly talking to ATC). In gliding you'll learn lots more about judgement skills, spatial awareness, meterology, personal decision making, managing complex workloads, handling unusual attitudes, team working and sensing the air around you. Still, if your end goal is to go from (A) to (B) in a predictable way, stay with power flying :-)

flybymike

27th Jul 2010, 23:14

Still, if your end goal is to go from (A) to (B) in a predictable way, stay with power flying :-)

I have been power flying for 27 years and never yet managed to get from A to B in a predictable way...

24Carrot

28th Jul 2010, 02:07

3. Beg, borrow or steal some P2 trips with qualified club members - or better yet get the FI to demo more circuits, (or at least the parts you find hard), with a running commentary.

I suspect there is often an attitude of 'keep on trying it will come right one day'. That's not the same as being taught.

cats_five

28th Jul 2010, 06:10

I have been power flying for 27 years and never yet managed to get from A to B in a predictable way...

But assuming you actually leave A, you will almost always get from A to B, rather from A to a field somewhere in the general direction of B!

Monocock

28th Jul 2010, 07:31

Juno

I think you need to have an hour with a different instructor and ask them their opinion. I have heard of countless students who are being relieved of their cash when they are perfectly capable to fly solo.

If this isn't the case then you might just be crap, but I think that's highly unlikely as you kart race and you speak with confidence about what you are doing.

Juno78

28th Jul 2010, 08:19

Thanks everyone for taking the time to reply - it's been really helpful to read through so many opinions :)

I deliberately didn't mention my instructor in the first post as I wanted to see if I was just making a mountain out of a molehill or if I was actually taking an unnecessarily long time in the circuit. What my instructor generally says is that it's not an unusual amount of time to take to get to solo, that I'm nearly there but that there's just a few things need tweaking, and that maybe in the next couple of lessons I can go up on my own. Except that he's been suggesting that I'm nearly ready for solo since around the start of the year... He's happy that the rest of my circuit is fine but isn't quite happy with my landings yet.

Much as I like my instructor and get on well with him, I am starting to wonder whether he's just a bit too laid back for me to make proper progress. What someone said above about 'keep on trying it will come right one day' does sound a bit familiar. He's also pretty young, and although I don't think for a minute that necessarily makes someone a bad instructor, I wonder whether it's partly down to having less experience that is making him more cautious about sending someone solo too early.

I know that having the big gaps between lessons is going to result a bit in having to spend the first part of each lesson remembering what I'm doing. To that end, my routine on a flying day is generally to sit down with my books for at least half an hour beforehand and review my notes from the previous lesson and the section in the Flying Training book that I'm on, and to mentally talk myself through a circuit and what happens at each point. I generally aim to get to the airfield about half an hour before my lesson, and have 15/20 minutes parked up on the road at the end of the runway with my airband receiver on to get my head back into the radio as well.

I'm going up with a different instructor on the next two weekends as mine is away, so I'm going to explain the situation to him and see what he thinks. I'm also in a position where I'm going to be moving house in the next six months and therefore also moving airfield. I'm suspecting that's going to involve a change in aircraft, so I think if I still don't feel like I'm getting anywhere over the next couple of lessons I might just take a break and have a fresh start somewhere else later in the year.

Flyingmac

28th Jul 2010, 09:08

Ask to see your instructor's notes on your progress.

A and C

28th Jul 2010, 09:24

The bottom line is you need an instructor change, some students progress levels out with the same instructor, the instrctor may be doing nothing wrong but he may be sending you signals that you are not aware of.

A change of instructor will cure this.

If the instructor change fails to work then the CFI needs to look at your records from day one to see if something in the pre CCT phase has been missed or rushed.

IO540

28th Jul 2010, 09:33

I think circuit banging is exhausting and due to the brain overload and the student being soaked in sweat it does not achieve very much.

Even in the early stages, it is nice to actually go somewhere, to remind the student that flying isn't just damned hard work.

119.35

28th Jul 2010, 13:52

Have to say IO540 struck a chord with me and my ppl training!

I wouldn't say that I considered myself stuck in the circuit at the time, but I had been giving it a good bashing for a few lessons and wasn't making any real progress.

It was starting to become a bit fustrating and I wasn't looking forward to my lessons as much as I knew what was in store. My instructor recognised this and my next lesson was out of the circuit (something like general handling) and it was like a breath of fresh air.

The very next lesson was back in the circuit but for some inexplicable reason, it all just fell into place. Before I knew it my instructor got out and sent me off solo!

Looking back, I think the pressure and frustration had been building for some time. Getting out of the circuit seemed to release this pressure and worked miracles for me.

I was very fortunate to have an excellent and experienced instructor.

Big Pistons Forever

28th Jul 2010, 14:51

My experience as an instructor is if ia student is not progessing in the circuit than the problem is weak fundamental flying skills. Poor attitude control is the usual problem manifested in the nose contunually nodding up and down on final with the airspeed never stabilized on the proper value. This is often combined with way too much power on final and therefore execessive airspeed into the flare. When the power is chopped it all goes to hell.

My 02 cents. If your circuits are not getting better than go to the practice area. I think this is even more important for students who do not fly regularly
as skill fade on the fundamentals will set in. It is hugely more efficent to fly regularly when taking lessons , so much so I recommend you save up enough money to get at least the first half of the course done before starting your PPL lessons.

Juno78

28th Jul 2010, 14:58

stevelup

28th Jul 2010, 15:21

Everyone is different - but it does seem quite a lot. Mine went like this:-

7:10 of general handling, then 9:40 hrs of circuits before first solo.

I did fly every single weekend though - only missed three lessons over a ten month period. I'm now at 53:30 and doing my skills test next weekend.

I had a two month period where I couldn't fly solo due to a problem with my medical and this mucked up the order of my training a bit.

Genghis the Engineer

28th Jul 2010, 15:47

So, just to clarify, is 16 hours generally too long to have been doing circuits and not be ready to solo? Most of the replies seem to think that there is a problem so I assume that's the general consensus?

It really does "depend".

I'm in the middle of a licence upgrade at the moment, and chose do to it when available from the airfield I work on, rather than (say) taking 3 weeks off work and going off to Florida, where at least the weather is reasonably consistent.

Despite having lots (1000+) of hours flying, I've taken a lot more hours than I expected because it has stretched out over a similar period - lots of weather cancellations, and lots of gaps. This has all slowed up my personal learning curve and a 25 hour course will have ended up taking 35-40.

To be honest, I'm happy to be reasonably philosophical about the number of hours I've taken, but I've no doubt that if I'd just done the Florida thing, it would all have been done in far less hours (and thus rather cheaper). This sort of stretching is an inevitable extension of flying irregularly, which itself is a fairly inevitable consequence of trying to learn any aspect of flying in the UK.

G

hazholmes

28th Jul 2010, 17:01

From memory I spent about 12 hours in the circuit before solo-ing. Afterwards went straight back to dual circuits before starting Nav. Not really sure there is an average.

Good luck with it, sure it will all fall into place, probably when you least expect it to!

Neptunus Rex

28th Jul 2010, 17:11

Juno 78
Your instructor should have taken you out of the circuit for at least 20 minutes revision of the upper air work long ago.
The CFI should have been monitoring your progress and either flown with you himself or given you a change of instructor.
Either way, you are not being best served by their inattention to your progress. Find a better club.

Juno78

29th Jul 2010, 13:26

Thanks again everyone for the helpful and thoughtful responses. I actually think a change of club might be good for dealing with the boredom of circuits too - that might be what I need to just get that bit of improvement.

I'm inclined to think that my club haven't exactly been on top of my training, from what everyone's said here. Although I'm going to try out another instructor for a couple of lessons and see how I get on, it doesn't sound like they're doing what they should be doing. Seeing that I have to move anyway, it's probably good timing.

Out of interest, can anyone recommend any particular instructors around Nottingham / Derby? I was looking at Truman Aviation as a possibility (I want to keep flying low-wing so the fact that they have Pipers is helpful).

Also, when I do move clubs, do I just need my logbook stamped or should I be retrieving other paperwork from them as well? I think they have the form with the exams I've taken so far signed off, which I assume I'll need if I don't want to have to go back to them when it comes to applying for my licence.

englishal

29th Jul 2010, 13:48

Instead of staying in "your" circuit, why not take off, fly somewhere, do some circuits, then land for a cuppa and a chat with the FI. Then fly back and if you feel like it do some more.

Book a 4 hr slot or something rather than a lesson....plan to visit a few places, do a few things etc....keep expanding your flying so that when you do crack it you will be more confident in the cross countries.

I took about 25 hrs to solo but that was because I was getting bored and so we used to do the above which is slightly more "inefficient"....(mind you I did an intensive course and the whole lot from zero to PPL only took 5 weeks).

1 long final

29th Jul 2010, 16:14

Hi Juno,

When I read your post it made me remember how frustrated I was at that stage of training too. Just going round and round.

You mentioned the midlands, if you are flying at East Midlands Airport you will know that the circuit often takes a lot of time due to the 2 mile long runway and a bit of orbiting for jet traffic. This would add to the time. The first solo is never perfect, you have to be safe, I don't think 'tweaking' is really a good explanation from your instructor. You need to know exactly what it is that you need to do. My landings were rubbish, but kind of safe after 12 hours and I was nervously sent off to fly on my own. Is your instructor new to instructing and a little nervous to let you go maybe?

The other advice is all fantastic, I would agree, book a lesson when your usual instructor is not on, or book with another club. If you try other airfields you will end up having to learn different procedures and different length runways, it may add to the hassle.

Good luck. Please keep up posted in this thread. I would love to know how you get on. We have all pretty much been in this situation in our training where we feel frustrated and stuck.

:ok:

1 long final

29th Jul 2010, 16:21

Clifford FW, Donair use C152s but also have a PA28 warrior and archer for PPL training.

Local Variation

29th Jul 2010, 19:58

Just to back up 1 long final, you won't regularly get 5 circuits an hour in at East Mids. There's nothing worse than having problems with the landing (to which you elude) and spending your hour doing orbits near Ratcliffe power station. Alternatively, work out the schedules and find the gaps in the flow. Not easy nowdays.

Years ago, when doing my PPL at East Mids, I used to go up to Hucknall to do my circuit bashing in an attempt to get my money's worth. It's no better today.

If you move to another airfield or club, I would suggest they'll take you back to handling work as part of their getting to know your current capabilities. You may not need or want to do that for all sorts of reasons including the cost of going over old ground. But yes, your Instructor has clearly got you treading water and you need to change that.

Do you really need to go as far as changing clubs or airfields ? I guess you're at Sywell ?, in which case you ought to be able resolve your circuit issues with the Instructors on site.

Seeking out the CFI is the best instruction i have read on this thread.

rkgpilot

29th Jul 2010, 22:18

I too got a bit stuck in the circuit. I just didn't seem to get 'it' - I couldn't really see what 'it' was, that I wasn't getting. After a change of instructor, to the CFI/examiner for only one lesson, 'it' was explained to me slightly differently, and hey presto 'it' clicked. I still make the odd poor landing of course and most are only average, but whatever 'it' was, a change of instructor helped a lot. A simple re-phrasing of the same instruction. I was mis-timing the roundout and flare. He said something like 'wait until the crash is inevitable, then flare'. That did it for me and I was solo a week later.

By the way, all those hours in the circuit will bear fruit; after my skills test, the examiner in the de-brief praised me for my circuit work, saying my landings were among the better ones he had had when testing PPL; (that could not be said about the rest of the test, mind....:O).

It is not all wasted time for you going around and around, but great experience.

I still wonder if I have still got 'it' - I am more than happy to do plenty of circuits just to get the occasional greaser:).

larssnowpharter

30th Jul 2010, 02:38

Try gliding...and in three years? Stay with gliding! It'll offer far more challenges than power flying (which is fine if you're into following needles, procedures and constantly talking to ATC). In gliding you'll learn lots more about judgement skills, spatial awareness, meterology, personal decision making, managing complex workloads, handling unusual attitudes, team working and sensing the air around you. Still, if your end goal is to go from (A) to (B) in a predictable way, stay with power flying :-)

Just a brief note to support the above statement. A Silver C will give you some of the best stick and rudder and judgement skills at a relatively low cost. Invaluable experience.

A and C

30th Jul 2010, 06:28

Gliding is for those who are time rich and cash poor. while I agree that it is great fun and teaches the basics of flight very well I don't think it will help with this particular problem in a speedy way.

Juno78

30th Jul 2010, 06:42

I'm not learning at either East Midlands or Sywell - as I said in my initial post I'm at a small (AFIS) airfield where I'm generally managing five or six landings in a lesson. The reason for asking about Nottingham is that I'm going to be moving to the Derby area in the next four or five months and so can't continue flying out of my current airfield anyway.

IO540

30th Jul 2010, 07:01

Gliding is for those who are time rich and cash poor.

and single and looking (though they will prob99 be looking for quite a while; internet dating is going to be a whole lot more productive) ;)

PPL training is much more fun if you do it as scenario-based i.e. flights to different places and mix the training into that. I am "training" my 14 year old plane-crazy son now and hopefully by 17 he will know "everything" (unless he gets into girls) and then, EASA permitting, I will send him to USA (SoCal) for a FAA+JAA PPL and an FAA IR.

The problem with scenario-based training is that it costs a lot more; your £8k average PPL will probably cost £12k. I know of businessmen who did their IR in this way.

stevelup

30th Jul 2010, 07:15

and single

Well, if you weren't single when you started gliding, that would soon change!

Someone who doesn't share your interest finds it impossible understand why you have to spend the whole weekend stood in a field and this quickly leads to friction... (well it did for me anyway!)

IO540

30th Jul 2010, 07:30

One cannot run a relationship on that basis - unless the other person is away at the w/e doing their own stuff and this is mutually accepted from the outset.

I think GA as a hobby needs to be similarly sorted up front... many women dislike unless they can get to nice places, but that (e.g. Cannes) isn't so easy...

Juno78

30th Jul 2010, 08:11

Well perhaps I'll forget the gliding idea then... my husband certainly isn't going to start any time soon (not a keen flier) and I don't fancy spending the entire weekend away from him given that we both have jobs which require a lot of our time during the week. GA is one thing - a few hours here and there - but a whole day would be too much for both of us I think.

stevelup

30th Jul 2010, 08:38

I don't want to be down on gliding - because it's a fabulous hobby.

It is hugely time consuming though.

NazgulAir

30th Jul 2010, 08:59

It is hugely time consuming though.
What's wrong with something you love doing being time consuming? Gliding gives a huge pleasure value for little money, and it is real sport.
Most PPL pilots spend a lot of time too, apres-flying in the clubhouse. Flying hours are expensive. If I weren't so hell-bent on going places I too would go gliding.

stevelup

30th Jul 2010, 09:13

Sorry but where did I say there was anything wrong with it?

I said it was a fabulous hobby but very time consuming.

I think that is a fair appraisal of it?

IO540

30th Jul 2010, 09:37

What's wrong with something you love doing being time consuming?

Nothing wrong with it - just make sure your personal life revolves around the same activity as well. I have known too many pilots (and many more ex pilots) who thought otherwise... One nice chap I used to fly with was told by his wife (when she found herself pregnant) to stop flying for the sake of the kid (or else). He stopped flying. Now, that is occassional GA. Gliding is a full-time weekend hobby; a bit like a sailing club, and you have to square that with your other half before you get into it.

I think one finds a similar division of "weekend time allocation" in GA, too, between the IFR-capable pilots (who just want a plane, and a hangar for it to sit, and all the facilities like somebody moving the plane out for when they need it, and they are willing to pay for it) and the farm strip flyer (who is much more content to get into his local pilot community at the strip).

Unfortunately too many (IMHO) GA pilots are single and somewhat grumpy men, which in turn ensures that few women come into this game, which in turn keeps it that way :)

Fuji Abound

30th Jul 2010, 10:20

I said it was a fabulous hobby but very time consuming.

I dont know. It is as time consuming as you make it. I spend far too long on PPRuNe but quite enjoy that as an occasional distraction when I am using my computer. I fly a little over 100 hours a year on a combination of business and pleasure. I use to spend some time on organising maintenance etc but that is all done for me now so it is entirely turn up and go. Nearly every flight is for a purpose at the destination so I would end up driving there anyway. I do try and fly about four or five hours a year for "training" and to make sure I am not doing too many silly things but a few hours of that is taken up with the twin rating, SEP and keeping two licenses going.

So while it can be very time consuming equally it can be as time consuming as you want it to be. Only yesterday I was musing how many of us fly for the pure pleasure of flying. However as much as I enjoy flying I think you can reach the point where it becomes a means to end, a way of getting from A to B, but having some fun along the way. I am not sure if most of my flying was just to keep current and to enjoy coffee at another flying club somewhere whether I would still be doing it.

cats_five

30th Jul 2010, 10:40

Gliding is for those who are time rich and cash poor. and single and looking (though they will prob99 be looking for quite a while; internet dating is going to be a whole lot more productive) ;)
<snip>

To be honest I can't think any form of flying is often a way of meeting a partner, especially for straight men. My club is almost all men, most of them are married and most of them are over 60.

However several of them are married to women who are delighted for them to go to the club several days on the trot as now they are retired they find having hubby around all the time is far, far to annoying.

Juno78

30th Jul 2010, 11:06

Let's put it this way, if flying in any form is going to cause problems in a relationship, I don't think it's the flying that's at fault but the relationship...

Mark1234

30th Jul 2010, 16:27

Much as I love gliding I'd have to agree.. you can't really go gliding in the morning with plans for the rest of the afternoon; you may finish up in a field, and for that matter you won't make too many friends if you turn up, fly, then toddle off.

On the flipside, I often do precisely that with powered a/c. As for meeting girls, go do something like dancing. In fact if you do both you might discover quite a pool of girls for whom the offer of a spare seat to sit in might be quite a draw.. neatly killing two birds with one stone :ok:

And Juno78 has a rather good point.. I can't understand why people who have active interests settle with partners who want to spend their entire life pottering around the house..

IO540

30th Jul 2010, 16:51

Yeah, people choose their partners for all kinds of weird (and bad) reasons. I should know; it cost me a lot of money ;) I think most men choose their woman out of a tiny available pool (e.g. place of work) and always have done. One would think internet dating would have changed that but mentioning GA as a hobby drops the response rate by 99% :)

IO540

30th Jul 2010, 21:00

You could get a job at BT. Then, morris dancing is mandatory ;) I know a retired BT engineer who does really well with that.

Who has read that book "Propellerhead (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Propellerhead-Antony-Woodward/dp/0007107293)"? Basically it involved a city lad who bought a Thruster (http://www.fly365.co.uk/thruster.html) and hoped to get laid, and was spectacularly unsuccessful. Which doesn't suprise me.....

Time to dig out that old joke...

A pilot is out on a date. Halfway, he says "now that's enough talking about planes. Let's talk about ME".

And if the gurl has any brains and thinks you are a commercial pilot she will run a mile because they are mostly unfaithful.

Big Pistons Forever

30th Jul 2010, 21:01

How can you tell you are on a date with a pilot ? Halfway through dinner he/she says "well thats enough talk about flying, lets talk about me" :}

IO540

30th Jul 2010, 21:02

I beat you by 1 minute :)

Ryan5252

30th Jul 2010, 21:04

Well I met my misses before I started flying. Now, when she see's the bank account drain at the end of each month she knows she got well and truly shafted!!

Mind you, she wouldn't have it any other way! (So I'm told.....):}

Say again s l o w l y

30th Jul 2010, 21:47

Tell a girl that your an FI and they think you're loaded, little do they realise that you're actually less well off than you were as a teenager thanks to the unique way that flying schools are funded...

Anyhoo, back to the OP.

Something isn't right if you have been stuck in the circuit for 16 hours. My first suggestion is that your FI is an idiot, but not having met them, then I won't presume anything, however what is clear is that they have a huge lack of imagination.

I'm surprised that you haven't jumped out halfway through a circuit detail as you are bored beyond belief.

Just bashing around the circuit is not helping you. In fact it is now having a damaging effect, the fact that you are posting on here about it proves that. If your FI isn't smart enough to realise this on their own, then I suggest a change might be in order.

pitofrost

30th Jul 2010, 23:11

I am in a similar position, I got to about 12 hours and just couldn't get the landings. I got quite depressed about it (£130 an hour to get p****d off...) My instructor realised this and we started doing navexs (which I can do) combined with circuits at other airports, so I get experience of not being able to land on other runways.

I have only done this three times but I'm really enjoying learning again and the different runways are improving my landings. I would recomend asking your instructor. You are paying after all for something supposed to be fun.

Cusco

31st Jul 2010, 07:35

I said it was a fabulous hobby but very time consuming.

I think that is a fair appraisal of it?

Amen to that :
I had a brief love affair with gliding when I was at University, hoping to build on the BGA A and B certs I'g got for free (well, for one
one shilling a day mess fees) at RAF Henlow in the early 60s.

So I joined my University Gliding club which at that time operated from a large regional airport not a milloin miles from where I sit now until it got chucked off for, among other things smashing too many runway lights).

I was designated winch driver where i'd stay all day hoisting up the glitterati of the club, mending broken cables (which was a frequent occurrence, the club bought RAF cast offs and used them to death) and other stuff until finally just as the sun was setting I'd get a freebie circuit with an instructor.

A summer of that put me off gliding for good.

Discovered power flying 30 years later and haven't looked back: Time taken can be estimated pretty accurately.

Cusco

thing

31st Jul 2010, 08:56

mingmongaloo

31st Jul 2010, 09:57

Back on topic, at my school it's SOP (well, it is for my FI and I believe it is for the others as well) for all students to have a couple of hours of training with some of the other FIs in the school around 10-15 hours in, even if the training is going well, to enable the student to have a look at possibly slightly different style of flying and give them a reference point to compare their own FI to to see how good the chemistry and progress is.

Juno78

31st Jul 2010, 18:58

So, I went up with a different instructor today, and explained to him beforehand that I was getting frustrated and didn't really know what it was I needed to improve on, so we had a good run through the circuit in the briefing, talked through what I thought I was getting wrong and how to fix them, and proceeded to do pretty much the best landings I've done.

Upshot being that he thinks that if the wind is calm enough next weekend (15kt crosswind today) then he would hope to be able to get me solo, and if it's windy we'll go off and do a navex which he's given me a route to prepare for. So definitely feel more positive about the whole thing having someone who seems to be actively managing things better!

Say again s l o w l y

31st Jul 2010, 20:06

Good. Sounds like you've got someone with a bit more nous there. Stick with them.

MichaelJP59

31st Jul 2010, 20:36

That just about sums up gliding for me too. When I got good enough to fly the club 'hot' ships I would book to fly at say 1PM (you were only allowed 1 hr max unless on a task), spend all morning sitting on the winch/repairing cables/DI'ing said hot ship when one of the 'club fathers' would come along at 12.45, take your ship, do some local soaring for two hours, land and then bugger off. Used to make me spit blood and was the real reason I packed in TBH, but gliding itself is the sport of kings.

Interesting - I never knew gliding was like that. For some reason I thought people had their own gliders and either kept them at their club or trailered them about, then booked the use of either a tug or winch to get them airborne.

thing

31st Jul 2010, 20:55

No, club gliding means for the majority of pilots flying club aircraft, much like SEP flying I imagine (I may of course be wrong). Glider owners actually tend to be quite good at taking their share of duties. Because they usually want a hand rigging their gliders...Gliding clubs are all self help, there's a rota for winch driving/aerotowing, cable retrieve, duty pilot, duty this that and the other. Some people think that rotas are for other members though and they can just turn up, fly and go home. Every gliding club has them. Most members of most clubs accept this, although not gladly of course. I, having more of a sense of right and wrong and of people taking the p*** and being a well built chap who used to box, tended to tell them what I thought.....

The strangest thing was that other members who would mumble into their beer at the clubhouse complaining quietly never liked it if I gave friendly and much needed advice to people. You can't please some folk.

IO540

31st Jul 2010, 21:55

There are many people who expect a "service" and are willing to pay a set price for it. I think this is reasonable. You go to a restaurant; you are not expecting to have to help out in the kitchen.

I suspect quite a few turn up at a gliding club, not realising the scene is like that.

Example: I windsurf, on the sea. There is a "community" but basically you can do it all on your own (on the sea, anyway). Up the road is a huge lake and seeing loads of boating etc there I thought I will give it a try, and drove there to enquire. I was sent off to a snotty sailing club manager who explained that nobody was allowed to be a member unless they helped with certain duties, and would be evicted if they missed 3+ duty assignments.

He also added that I "did not have big enough t*ts" at which point I got the message :)

thing

31st Jul 2010, 23:54

People might turn up at a gliding club not realising the 'scene' is like that but after several years at same gliding club you would have thought the penny would have dropped...

You don't pay for any service at a gliding club other than membership and flying fees, everything is voluntary, but not voluntary as in 'I may be charitable and volunteer to be duty pilot.'

Genghis the Engineer

1st Aug 2010, 08:56

Surely this is the difference between a "club" and a "school".

I'm currently doing some training with a school, I turn up, pre-flight the aeroplane, fly with an instructor wearing a uniform, park it at the end, and pay.

I also am a longstanding member of a true flying club - I help out with jobs around the airfield, take time to introduce members, even occasionally get a spade out and fill in the rabbit holes in the runway.

Strangely enough, the first costs a shedload more money, whilst the latter is a lot more fun in the end, I have a lot more friends there, and money notwithstanding I'll stay with them far far longer. But we pretty much all still need a flying school occasionally.

G

KandiFloss

1st Aug 2010, 12:34

Juno78 - Standby ...I'll be back to reply to you in just a mo!

IO540 - "did not have big enough t*ts"

I actually think you have big tits ... well you certainly act like one for putting a statement like this ...

"And if the gurl has any brains and thinks you are a commercial pilot she will run a mile because they are mostly unfaithful."

... mostly unfaithful ... not all pilots are b*stards. My husband is an airline pilot and I think that you have just made a huge sweeping statement. So just watch it Mr! := However i'm in a good mood today and so I will forgive you for your pompous opinionated statement. :)

Juno78 - It took me around 30 hours so do not be disheartened by 'sky-gods' who can solo in under 10 hours (like my hubby :ouch:). I gained my PPL at OFT (Florida) in 2006. I started my PPL trainning in a C-152 :ugh:but just didn't get on with them. My landings were an issue, I was flaring either too high or too low. It got to the point that my instructor was unsure of what to do with me, so we used to fly off to quieter airfields to practice circuits there. I remember flying one day and I felt pretty unhappy about how unstable the aircraft felt as it was a gusty day and I had almost given up with the whole idea of trying to gain my licence. I told my instructor that I wanted to see if I felt happier in the Cadet (PA-28). I was glad that I asked to change aircraft because within 4 hours of changing I had gone solo. The fact that I also had 7 different instructors didn't help me either. In hindsight I now wish that i'd got my licence in UK ... but that's another story.

I remember my first lesson in USA and I did not enjoy it. I remember feeling unhappy about how bumpy it was in the air. I had previous flying experience of flying with instructors and experienced pilots in the UK, but I the idea of having to fly the aircraft on my own was not a happy one. I think that fact that I had set out on my goal of gaining my PPL in a short space of time made me feel really pressurised.

When you fly your circuits do you make sure that you fly accurate headings, have correct power settings and the correct heights? I know that sometimes it can be hard to do this bang on every time, but if you can get these as near to 'bang on' as possible your instructor might feel happier about letting you go. When I was learning to fly someone who I knew flew with had an instructor who didn't seem that comfortable with flying herself, and he felt that because she was nervous she was over-demanding. Who knows? He asked to fly with a different instructor and he solo'd shortly after this.

I've flown with instructors who unless you fly the circuit 'bang on' aren't happy to let you go. But as someone else on this thread pointed out, you don't have to do perfect circuits to be sent solo, just safe ones. You can go on to polish your circuits to perfection afterwards ... if you want! From talking to instructors (and my hubby who has also instructed) they just want to see 3 good circuits before sending you solo.

I think that if I was you i'd look into flying from Tollerton, but then i'm biased as i'm from Nottingham originally. I have also flown (prior to my PPL) with friends from there. It seems like a lovely airfield and they do have a warrior there. I don't think that flying from East Mids is a good idea because of the fact that they handle commercial traffic and if you are asked to hold for it, it will be eating into your circuit time ££££££

It's a shame that you aren't nearer as you could come with me as I fly regularly.

Keep us posted and feel free to PM me :)

Whopity

1st Aug 2010, 12:56

Assuming all of the basic exercises have been taught correctly and the student is up to standard, the only new thing that you are trying to learn in the circuit is the take off and landing. In most cases it is only the landing you are trying to perfect.

16 hours implies a more fundamental problem than just the landing and perhaps it is time to go back to some of the basic exercises to ensure that the basic skills are up to speed. If they are not, then progress will be slow.

Circuit flying is a critical phase and having more concentrated lessons would be agood idea to try get past this hurdle.

I have flown with numerous students in a similar position and usually find that watching one circuit tells all. In most cases the problem is basic flying skills that need to be or improved, or have not been taught properly. This is best done away from the circuit.

Try flying with another instructor.

IO540

1st Aug 2010, 14:52

However i'm in a good mood today and so I will forgive you for your pompous opinionated statement

Phewwww that was a close one...

Juno78

7th Aug 2010, 17:03

Hi again everyone,

Well, went for a second lesson with the new instructor today, and he said at the start that as the wind was almost calm he wanted to get me to solo today, and that he basically just needed to see me do three good circuits first. So we went up and did a couple, which seemed to go fine, and after the second landing he took control and started slowing us down - at which point I though "gosh, I must be doing something pretty wrong!" but no, he said he was going to let me go up on my own. Woooooo!

He jumped out and I carried on by myself, and all absolutely fine apart from a rain shower that I could see heading my way while on downwind, and that I met just as I was turning base, but I was clear of it again by the time I got set up on final. Landing wasn't the softest I've ever done but it certainly wasn't particularly ropey. On mentioning the rain my instructor said that was why he'd let me out after two circuits because he'd been able to see the rain coming and wanted to give me a chance to go up before it got to us properly!

So very happy today, and thanks to everyone for your advice - clearly changing instructor was just the thing! Actually looking forward to more circuits now I can do them by myself :D

(Incidentally, although I noticed it climbed slightly quicker without two on board, it didn't seem to feel any different otherwise - quite relieved about that!)