Intensive IMC course this summer?

[BackPacker]

I have a UK-issued JAR-FCL PPL with 200 hours PIC (*). I have some vacation days left over, and some money saved, and I'm interested in a new challenge this summer vacation. One of the things I'm considering is taking a club aircraft, hopping over to the UK for a week and do an intensive IMC course there.

Now I know that an IMC rating isn't valid outside the UK (other than removing the no-VFR-on-top restriction) so I won't be able to use it here in the Netherlands. But I think the flying skills gained will be worth it anyway.

So if I decide to do this, I'm looking for a UK school/club that has:
- Parking facilities for the club plane I'll be bringing over (probably a DA40 so the airfield needs to have Jet-A available).
- A full-time instructor willing to fly with me in said aircraft, two-three times a day.
- An examiner for the ground and flight test.
- Either camping facilities or a B&B close by.

Any thoughts/recommendations?

(*) Actually passed the 200 hour mark yesterday. Woohoo!:cool:

[CFW's]

Hello,

Try Flying Time at Shoreham (EGKA) Flying lessons PPL CPL MEP IR IMC FNPTII UK - Flying Time Aviation FTO Shoreham (http://www.flyingtime.co.uk)

They fly DA40 and DA42, so JET 1 no problem. In addition, there are loads of B+B's, hotels etc nearby.

Enjoy!!

[Artistic Intention]

These guys Jersey Aero Club - Home (http://www.jerseyaeroclub.com/component/option,com_frontpage/Itemid,1/)

could be worth a try.

[Fuji Abound]

Backpacker

If you want to PM me I can put you in touch with an examiner / instructor and let you know where to stay. You should think at least a few weeks ahead at this time of year to ensure the instructor can set aside enough time.

[Danny boy]

Try Sky Blue Flight Training in Norfolk.. IFR DA40 at a competitive price...

Norwich is a great Airport to train for a IMC.. easy to get to from Amsterdam...

Sky Blue Flight Training - Home (http://www.skyblueflighttraining.co.uk/)

PM me if you want...DB

[BroomstickPilot]

Hi BackPacker,

In my experience, IMC does not lend itself to rapid learning.

A couple of years ago I started the IMC course with the intention of completing it within a couple of weeks. It didn't work.

I did the ground school in a day, passed the examination without difficulty and booked myself in for about five flights a week for the next fortnight.

In fact, most of the flights I booked, I cancelled and the instructor lost money as a result. This was because I was not ready to do them.

There is a great deal of what I shall call 'practical theory' in the IMC, that you have to master on the ground before you go up and practice them in the air. If you fly without mastering this material you will just be wasting money.

In my case, after a discussion with my instructor it was decided that the best thing would be to book no more than two flights per week, on the understanding that I would be at the aerodrome practically full time practicing with RANT on the computer between flights.

As a suggestion, I wonder if it would be possible for you to do your IMC training (which is all dual) in the Netherlands and just come over to the UK to do the IMC skill-test? I don't know if this is possible, but it's the best I can think of.

Regards.

Broomstick

[IO540]

Well, yes, my advice is to

- get a PC sim (FSX); a cheap £10 joystick is just fine
- fly all procedures on that first
- if you cannot understand the procedure, fly it until you do (never go into a plane until you can do everything on the ground, regardless of what an instructor might say)
- allow about 25hrs (assuming no instrument skills to start with)
- try to fly the same plane that you will be flying afterwards (maximises the value of the training)
- try to avoid training in wreckage (like I did :) ) - it is a good revenue generator for the school but it is poor value for money

[AlastairMutch]

It is possible to do the IMC quickly but it's hard work and still a bit weather dependant.

I did mine in 6 days with 3 - 4 hours flying each day plus several hours each day on the PC practicing the procedures. My brain was pretty fried by the end of the week though.

I'd recommend using IPC (from the same company as OnTop). The virtual flight instructor corrects your mistakes and the scoring system let's you see exactly how you are doing against the desired standard (well actually the US IR standard with IPC). I used it for the initial rating and then to renew my IMC after a two year medical lapse - the only actual flying I did was the renewal test.


Alastair

[BackPacker]

Thanks for the replies and PMs so far.

As a suggestion, I wonder if it would be possible for you to do your IMC training (which is all dual) in the Netherlands and just come over to the UK to do the IMC skill-test? I don't know if this is possible, but it's the best I can think of.

I wonder if this is possible? I just checked LASORS and find the following:

The IMC Rating is a national rating and can only be
endorsed onto a UK or JAR-FCL aeroplane licence.
The CAA will only add an IMC Rating to a UK issued
pilot licence. When you are training for the issue of a UK
Instrument Meteorological Conditions (IMC) you must
follow a syllabus recognised by the Civil Aviation Authority.
Training for the IMC rating is permitted outside the UK in a
non-JAA state provided that the flying training is conducted
by an organisation that is fully approved by the UK Civil
Aviation Authority for such purposes. Instruction on the
course may only be given by an IRI or a flying instructor
who is qualified to teach applied instrument flying.

(my bold). So it looks like training for the IMC rating within another JAA state is not allowed? Even if the training organization uses the CAA syllabus?

- get a PC sim (FSX); a cheap £10 joystick is just fine
- fly all procedures on that first
- if you cannot understand the procedure, fly it until you do (never go into a plane until you can do everything on the ground, regardless of what an instructor might say)

Done that already. I can fly an ILS on MSFS down to minima well within the half-scale deflection required and VOR/DME approaches almost within the 0/+50ft tolerance - and I blame that on the inaccuracy of the joystick, plus the C172 is a bitch to trim properly in MSFS (with the joystick I have). But I'm a bit worried about learning improper habits this way.

[Katamarino]

LASORS is badly written; it talks about non-JAA states, but not non-UK JAA states, it seems. I'd suggect phoning the CAA and checking with them!

I must say; I find flying the Cessna on flight sim much harder than flying the Cessna in reality!

[pmh1234]

The Great Circle: Home (http://www.thegreatcircle.co.uk/)
Was there last Nov. Did the IMC rating in 5 days.
As stated above, with the Flight sim practise and the Oxford PC software for the IMC rating, it is not so difficult.
My initial idea was also to take my own plane, but I ended up renting it. I think you need to have a special permit to get lessons in you own aircraft.
/Peter

[Fuji Abound]

I think you need to have a special permit to get lessons in you own aircraft.



I dont think so. For training the aircraft always use to have to be on a public cat but that may now have changed. For the IMCr there is no need to fit screens (and no one does) which is far more of an issue if you were doing an IR. The aircraft obviously needs to me on a European reg. (various issues arise if you want to use an N reg) and perhaps there are some issues if the aircraft is not on the G reg - that I dont know.

[IO540]

I can't see why you could not do the IMCR in the UK on any a/c reg - subject to DfT permission as usual.

You can for sure do the IR on an N-reg in the UK; I know of one man who has done it.

[LH2]

[QUOTE]So it looks like training for the IMC rating within another JAA state is not allowed?[/QUOTE

"Fly in Spain" in Spain have been doing IMC ratings for a few years now. They operate as a CAA registered facility.

[liam548]

The Great Circle: Home (http://www.thegreatcircle.co.uk/)
Was there last Nov. Did the IMC rating in 5 days.
As stated above, with the Flight sim practise and the Oxford PC software for the IMC rating, it is not so difficult.
My initial idea was also to take my own plane, but I ended up renting it. I think you need to have a special permit to get lessons in you own aircraft.
/Peter


very local to me and very attractive website.

Im pleased to hear you did yours in the timescale they quoted as well!..

Just wish I had a PC capable of running flight sim!!

[nakuru flyer]

West London Aero Club at White Waltham ticks all your boxes!

[belowradar]

Why not wait for September and get some IMC weather

Intensive course in the summer may merely result in a box tick rather than good development of skills and knowledge. You will need to fly in wind and rain so at some point so you may as well get that experience in a safe environment with your instructor while training.:ok:

[IO540]

Intensive course in the summer may merely result in a box tick rather than good development of skills and knowledge. You will need to fly in wind and rain so at some point so you may as well get that experience in a safe environment with your instructor while training

I would agree - if it wasn't for the fact that crap weather will simply result in lesson cancellation and a huge waste of time for everybody concerned, which is even worse for a visiting foreign pilot who is time-limited.

"Rain" can also be quite hazardous. Not the water falling from the sky, but the big dark object which it might be falling from, with 10,000fpm vertical currents inside it :)

Also most IMC instructors don't like flying in IMC - not least because most of the planes are knackered and with less than great avionics. All this stuff about NDB holds is all very well in the textbooks :)

This is why, perversely, if somebody wants to do an IR, I recommend they go to Arizona. No time wasted.

There is plenty of opportunity to practice instrument flight for real, afterwards, in a plane of one' choice, and in non-hazardous weather of one's choice.

[tmmorris]

Why not wait for September and get some IMC weather

Nonsense - I used my IMCR in June!

In fact the UK Summer is ideal - you get IMC conditions but without the danger of icing, most of the time...

Tim

[Duchess_Driver]

I did mine in a week (well, six days - we lost one to crosswinds outside the main instrument runway "limits") and that was in November. Plenty of opportunity to find 'marginal' weather - even in Summer.

No Pre-course training on a PC - and no faffing around with RANT. Just good old fashioned solid briefing before, morning flight, thorough debrief, lunch, brief, afternoon flight, debrief, home, tea, head in book then sleep. Repeat as necessary.

Not saying that the sim and RANT aren't useful - we just didn't have them then. Do now.

Jet fuel, close to London with good rail links, all the other boxes ticked or tickable. The Pilot Centre - Denham Aerodrome (http://www.egld.com/tpc). PM me if you need/want more info.

HTH

DD

[belowradar]

I would agree - if it wasn't for the fact that crap weather will simply result in lesson cancellation and a huge waste of time for everybody concerned, which is even worse for a visiting foreign pilot who is time-limited.

crap weather is what you should be looking for and any IMC instructor who doesn't like flying in actual due to crap aircraft should find another club and or another vocation.

As for the wrong type of rain? that made me laugh ! We often fly on the edge of rain showers and it would be a good idea to shoot a few approaches in an approaching squall and experience a missed approach for real when the viz deteriorates. Not suggesting we mess with known CB's but stronger winds, squalls, lowering viz and effects of high ground will all conspire to mess up the best ILS

There is a hell of a difference between flying around on a lovely summers day in fair weather cu with foggles on and flying in solid imc with low pressure and strong winds.

Give me real IMC anyday as it is much more challenging and fun for any student or experienced IMC instructor.

[NazgulAir]

I'm with Belowradar on this. Some, if not all, IMC training should be done in actual IMC.

When I fly in IMC the IMC itself seems to trip a switch in my brain. Distracting visual information from outside are gone. The world is in the cockpit and the instruments. I am focused on my simulated picture of the world. Everything is under control. I am ready for any eventuality.

It's totally different to the workload in VFR flight, a different way of thinking, a deployment of your visual senses into the leads that the instruments offer, a different situational awareness.

Flying with foggles, hoods, screens etc. is not so successful in switching you to that different way of thinking. I find it actually easier to switch to that frame of mind in actual IMC than when the visual world keeps intruding.

Having said that, it is not the purpose of IMC training to prepare you for continued / planned flight in IMC. It is meant to make it safe for you to climb/descend through cloud and to follow an instrument procedure. Doing sustained IMC flying in uncontrolled airspace while not being controlled or separated is not safe and should be avoided.

Maybe it is because the privileges of the IMCR and its application are misunderstood by so many that JAA and EASA have been so reluctant in adopting it into their FCL.?

[IO540]

Sure one should train in real IMC (because the goggles/hood produces an unrepresentative situation compared to being free to move one's head around but not seeing anything out of the windows) but one should not train in weather which the same pilot, having achieved his qualifications, would regard as hazardous in the same type of aircraft. :ugh:

That's why I am very unhappy about suggestions that one should train in heavy rain, etc. The rain is not the problem; it is the CB/TCU it is falling from. Flying into one of those is a very bad idea. I recall flying an ILS into Biggin through the bottom of one.

[belowradar]

I agree that we need to fly through IMC to good conditions on top and that newly minted imc pilots should take bite sized chunks and gain experience however your instructor should have lots of experience in imc and the best time to fly in really horrible weather is when your FI is sitting next to you so that you experience the reality of how rough it can get.

Once you have your rating you will then fly prudently BUT if you are caught out unexpectedly (wx not as forecast?) then at least you will have a memory of what it is like and what to do.

[tmmorris]

I was unlucky with the weather for my IMCR course - it was good VMC all the way - and encountered the first real IMC on the test, ironically. That said, I felt well prepared and passed fine; but my instructor held an IR and flew regular air taxi/charter work for a neighbouring company in singles and light twins, so he had real IMC experience. Plus the school had an (ancient but pretty good) FNPT (a sort of sim without any visuals or movement) which I could use free of charge as much as I liked during the course - we practised procedures on it before flying them in the air so I didn't use MS FS much at the time, though I use it a lot to keep current since then.

Tim

[madlandrover]

one should not train in weather which the same pilot, having achieved his qualifications, would regard as hazardous in the same type of aircraft.

That's a fair and correct point of view. However, my philosophy when teaching is a little different: yes, of course I would like all pilots to have a balanced view of risk taking and use common sense. Sadly that's not always true, and even the most sensible pilots can inadvertently end up in hazardous situations - whether it's through their own judgement/experience or external factors makes little difference when things turn nasty.

I also have to bear in mind that once I've finished training someone I may well never see them again so won't have a chance to mentor them/keep a very subtle eye on their flying. With that in mind I think I would be failing in my duty if I didn't fly people in poor weather (never so poor that it's truly dangerous of course, flying through the middle of a developed CB would be stupid, just as for prolonged icing in a non de-iced aircraft!) so that they at least have the practical experience to know what the risks really are.

That serves a dual purpose: 1) hopefully teaching them the judgement to stay away from conditions beyond their ability/the aircraft's ability; 2) should the worst happen, showing them what the aircraft's ability actually is and thus allowing them to remain rather less nervous and rather more collected. That's helped me at least once, in a de-iced twin in icing conditions when the de-ice systems failed!