The perpetual 'Am I too old?' thread

[rudestuff]

It's called sarcasm! Of course he shouldn't give up and neither should you. Unless you're an idiot. This is a great time to get a job, 28 isn't old - I know people who started in their 40's.

[rudestuff]

I have did everything (PPL, night, CPL, IR, MEP/IR) I haven't closed that. I have hours and lessons but no exam. So let's say that is all gone. I have just university degree but no ATPL. I'm able and willing to invest time and money to gain my ATPL(A

This doesn't make sense either.. you say you have a CPL/IR - so get a job! Haven't closed that? Hours but no exam? As long as you have passed the ATPL exams, you have a frozen ATPL. You can't get a full ATPL until you have a job, a type rating and 500 hours multi crew.

[r10bbr]

rudestuff have you completed your atpl?

[rudestuff]

Nope, still frozen

[Okavango]

Hi all. I'd appreciate a general sitrep on the recruitment scene, particularly for those of a certain vintage (40+). I've been out of the loop a few years with family commitments though I've kept current and now thinking of giving it a go and completing training. I know of some who have recently got in to airlines though any other success or failure stories would be good to know.

[hobbit1983]

Okavango,

Age not really a problem. Plenty of recruitment going on across the board; regional turboprops, light GA, instructing etc. It may be starting to tail off but it's still buoyant right now.

[Dan910]

After years of dreaming of becoming a pilot but not being able to pursue it due to finances and family commitments I am now in a position where I could actually go for it, my problem is being in my early 30,s spending 100k in the hope of getting a job offer is just crazy.

If I attempted to go down the cadet route with a gaurenteed job offer at the end of it then it is something that I would certainly go for. Now I see Easyjet are currently running a recruitment campaign for cadets but having only 9 gcse’s Grade a-c I think I can only go down the atpl route which doesn’t come with a job offer? Unlike the mpl route which I think does, or have I understood it wrong.

I could simply go and pay to do my atpl but I’ve worked far to hard to get where I am now to go and invest 100k in something that may not pay off even if I did eventually get my atpl, the money would be coming out of my mortgage which would impact my wife and kids and ultimately would be money that went towards my children’s futures such as uni fees so it isn’t a decision I make lightly. I’d appreciate anyone’s thoughts or experiences. Thanks.

[rudestuff]

Why would you want to spend 100k when a fATPL costs 40k? You could start at 40 and still have a 25 year career ahead of you. If you're looking for people to talk you out of it, it's probably not the career for you.

[Dan910]

Only because via a cadet program, which tend to be a lot more exspensive there is a job offer attached to it. I’m sure a lot of people would pay the higher amount in order to secure a job at the end than pay a lower amount and take a chance. But my understanding is that even under a cadet program, having only gcse’s I’d only qualify for the atpl route which I think does not come with a job offer at the end?

[hobbit1983]

Dan910,

-Early thirties is definitely not too old.

-By all means go for a cadet scheme, but please note there is NEVER any such thing as a guaranteed job. Don't ever bet the farm.

-Modular courses offer the same job opportunities as integrated, and can be completed for approximately half the figure you quote. Choose wisely; filter any marketing claims through commonsense and a lot of research.

[Dan910]

Thanks for the input guys, ultimately my only concern is being able to make a living from investing in an atpl, I get no job satisfaction from my current job and being self employed it comes with no benefits, if I knew that Id secure a job in the region of 40-50k then Id happily invest the money, but unfortunately I’d need a crystal ball to see if that would happen.

[rudestuff]

You mentioned the money would be coming out of your mortgage? Presumably that means you have the equity. If that's the case, then a remorgage would mean your repayments stay the same, but over a longer period. Since you are already paying that, I'd say that represents minimal risk.

Two things are need to be a commercial pilot: 1, have a licence. 2, convince someone to give your a job. The second is where you have to think laterally and make sacrifices. It's a cyclical industry, with waves every 5-7 years. Right now flight instructors are being sucked up everywhere, which is a really good sign. I'd say take the gamble, you'll definitely regret it if you don't. You don't have to give up the day job until you get an offer, and you could even become an FI and teach on weekends, paying off the cost over 10-15 years with a really fun hobby. You can't really lose.

[Dan910]

Yes that’s correct rudestuff I would be using some of the equity in our house to fund it, we are fortunate that we have family we can move in with so various options with the property whilst at flight school such as renting it out or possibly selling the property all together.

As you rightly said the difficult part is convincing someone to offer me a job at the end of it all which is why the cadet program made sense to me but realising I wouldn’t be able to go the mpl route it would probably make more sense to pay less and get a fatpl for a lot less money as you said in your original reply. Appreciate your comments.

Has anyone had any success with cadet programs via the atpl route.

[Jaair]

Dan, depending on how determined you are you'll get there in the end, regardless of the route you take. I know modular colleagues who got hired straight out of school. I also know some modular colleagues who got hired after years of instruction.

There are several pilots out there having graduated from top flight schools who have failed to secure a job and have simply given up. They had the money but lacked passion/determinism.

[Dreamflight80]

My situation:
- Almost 38 years old;
- No children;
- Good work as Software Engineer;
- Able to pay for integrated flight training (+/- 18 months) and - if necessary - TR without the need of a mortgage;

But then we have the one million dollar question: will airlines invite me for a job interview at the age of 40...
Everyone claims that chances decline with age. European airlines seem to focus a lot on age compared to US airlines. In USA, one still has a chance with the regionals with age 40+ and even 50+
Additionally, Asian airlines hire European pilots with a lot of experience but seem to hire locals for low experienced positions

It's a dilemma.

[WelshBarry]

Dreamflight80, if you really want to do it , don't give up. Go for it big time. It is a great time to get a pilot's job and there is quite a shortage in many places in Europe and elsewhere.

If you think you are old, I didn't start my training until I was 40 and an old friend of mine didn't start until he was 43! That friend is now a Captain on a 737 earning good bucks and enjoying his flying and does not miss his old lifestyle/job at all.

Good luck to you and remember that some companies don't insist that all of their new pilots are only 22, some feel that older pilots may stay with them for longer and not run off to Emirates or wherever.

[Dan910]

That’s what I liked about the cadet programs, although exspensive if you are successful and go down the mpl route then from what I understand is that you are given a job offer at the end of it. Anyone currently or know someone currently going down this route?

[Dan910]

Zerofuelmass what cadet did you do if you don’t mind me asking and how did it go?

[max1980]

Hi Dreamflight80,

I am in the exact same situation. Have you made a decision yet? Last week I went to the open day at CAE in Brussels and I am currently in Portugal for the open day of L3.

What options are you considering?

Groeten!

Massimo

[58guy]

Okay, I'm really sorry but I'll try to make this as short and sweet as I can.

Long and short is that flying has become a four letter word in my life.

As a kid I wanted to become a fighter pilot (who doesn't right?) or a pilot of some sort in the military. Well back then I had to start wearing glasses and pretty much gave up on the idea since until recently glasses and LASIK were a no go. Eventually I made it to the military about 8 years ago and worked on helicopters until last year when I got hurt and was medically discharged. Before that happened I was working on becoming an officer and then flying whirly birds, but life happens and the military takes you dry and puts you away wet. So those are my two attempts thus far. My injury wont disqualify me from a Class 1. The military showed me the door because I can't do things like hump a 45 pound pack for 12 miles, or run, or wear body armor.

Anyway, I have been wanting to fly again. I work overseas in an operations function in aviation right now making a killing compared to other points in my life. Watching the aircraft flying around here makes me want to start flying again. The only experience I have right now is from 4 years ago. I completed PPL ground school and have around 12 hours in a 172. The FBO kept jacking up the price of the 172 I flew, unfortunately the pay from the military couldn't keep up (guess you can count that is my 3rd attempt at flying).

I'll cut to the chase. This is what is going through my head and opportunities in front of me.

This is what I'm planning to do.

Work contracts for the next 4-5 years (which puts me at 34 or 35) and make it so I can develop passive income and not have to worry about bad pay. Then start flying again, which will be covered by my veterans benefits, or most of at least, and go from there.

I really don't care where I work, honestly if I work anywhere in the world that would be great. My wife and I that are the type that wants to throw a dart at the earth and end up where it lands. I already have a network built with pilots I worked with in the military who either A) are at the airlines or B) a captain at a corporate charter company who will open a FAA Part 141 soon with a contract flying for the company for two years after. My wife will support anything I do because I made some sacrifices in my previous life for her and she is more than willing to help and support me. She has a strong career and I don't need to support her. We don't want kids, ever.

What I want is to have a decent career doing something I enjoy. I would love to make it into cargo or live in a different part of the world. Matter of fact, how does someone from North America end up flying in other countries besides the ME3? For example, can someone work for Korean Air and be based in Korea?

Back on topic, long in short of it is this. I don't really care about making a metric **** ton of cash one day but I want to be comfortable. I feel like have some pretty good opportunities in front of me to make this happen. I love flying and I would be so god damn happy flying rubber dog **** out of Hong Kong.

If you were in my shoes would you go through with my plan? If your are in the industry already let me know what you think.

Much love in advance for any advice. Sorry I rambled a bit but there is a lot rolling in my head right now.

[Dreamflight80]

Hi max1980,

I haven't taken a decision yet, I'm still considering...
If I decide to go for it, I'll try to commence flight training at CAE Brussels (former Sabena FTO). First part of their training is only theory which is given in Belgium. This is quite convenient concerning my living costs as I won't have to move for the first 6/7 months.
Both flight schools have an outstanding reputation. I'm only considering integrated training to have the shortest route - quite important at our age.

One month ago, I had a chat with the Training Advisor of CAE Brussels to discuss my dilemma. It was a good discussion, without any sales talk, just a no nonsense conversation.
Obviously, he can't guarantee a flying job after graduation. The oldest student they had was 37 years old and managed to get a flying job.
He understood my fear of not finding a job and 'throwing away' 100k.
So he asked me this: "Will you always have big regret if you never tried to become a professional pilot? Or are you able to have another career outside of aviation?"
He gave me the advice to take sufficient time to answer these questions.

He also underlined that most airlines fly 95% of the time on automatic pilot. So don't expect to fly a lot manually.

Have you decided yet?

Greets

[tgw1979]

hi, I'm new here and like a lot of first time posters have a dream of flying for a career.

I'm 39, in a full time decent job working 9-5 with an engineering company (not aviation related) and have 22 days a year holiday. I can get the funds for a modular route so long as I hold down my job throughout training.

Which is where the problem lies. Ppl at a minimum of 45 hours + 100 hours experience then ir/cpl/me etc is sounding like a lot of weekends. That's before the home study and exams. I'm thinking I should target two years maximum or it will just drift along and cost lots of money without getting to a suitable reward.

Is two years possible considering factors such as instructor time, aeroplane hire time and fickle British weather? Is there a typical day at flying school and how many hours in a day/weekend is normal?

Any real world examples out there?

Sorry for all the silly questions I just want to be sure before I start.

[rudestuff]

A lot of people get a PPL and then go to the US to hour build. In your case you might want to consider doing it the other way around.
Weather is the biggest factor: in the UK if you only fly weekends, you might average one flyable day per weekend.
On that day you will be competing with every other student for aircraft and instructors.
*IF* you pass the written test before you go, you can book 3 weeks in Florida and (with a bit of luck) get an FAA PPL. This can be validated for UK use for £45, and it means you don't need a night rating. Then get yourself a share in a 152 (around £1500) and hour build at your leisure in the UK while you study the ATPLs. That would put you on track for a frozen ATPL for about £35,000

[jamesgrainge]

If you're lucky you'll get your PPL in two years :}

On a serious note, if you set off down this road you are in it for the long haul and need to be sure it's what you want to do and know you've got what is required mentally. First thing is a class 1 medical.

Two years is, optimistic shall we say. If you want speed you need Integrated. Or to stop work.

[rudestuff]

If your want to do things fast, modular distance learning is fastest. You can go at your own pace - no waiting for the rest of the class!

[MaverickPrime]

You only get 22 days holiday a year?! I feel sorry for you!

I'd say it would be near impossible to complete in 2 years, more like 3. Its going to be even more difficult if you've a family as well.

You will have to give up your job for the CPL MEIR stage, as most of the time it is completed in a 2-3 month block; unless your company is will to give you unpaid leave or a gap year.

Nothing is impossible, its never too late to do it (within reason), go for it if you really want it!

I'd recommend you go and see an AME and ensure you can pass a Class 1 medical before you proceed with any training.

[Basil Fawlty1]

A lot of people get a PPL and then go to the US to hour build. In your case you might want to consider doing it the other way around.
Weather is the biggest factor: in the UK if you only fly weekends, you might average one flyable day per weekend.
On that day you will be competing with every other student for aircraft and instructors.
*IF* you pass the written test before you go, you can book 3 weeks in Florida and (with a bit of luck) get an FAA PPL. This can be validated for UK use for £45, and it means you don't need a night rating. Then get yourself a share in a 152 (around £1500) and hour build at your leisure in the UK while you study the ATPLs. That would put you on track for a frozen ATPL for about £35,000

Once you get the £45 validation can you fly in the UK with an FAA PPL or does there need to be some form of conversion done first ?

[rudestuff]

No flying needed. You just need to fill in srg2140 and show knowledge of Air law & ATC. (This can be a chat with an examiner or a PPL/CPL/ATPL exam pass)

[tgw1979]

No night rating needed? Does it not get dark in the USA?!

Lots to think about, thanks for the tips. I hadn't thought of doing the ppl elsewhere. It's an interesting thought. Three years might be more realistic I guess? I can spread the saving a bit more that way.

35k was less than I was budgeting for but I'll aim for the bigger savings just in case. Is it normal to buy a share in a 152 or similar then sell it on six months later? I guess if you are up front with the syndicate they might accommodate.

[tgw1979]

On a more general lifestyle note is it likely airlines restrict when holiday can be taken?

We don't have kids but my wife is a teacher and based on a maximum of 900 hours per year I'm fairly confident on short haul a decent home/work balance can be struck but if I can't book holiday during school breaks , presumably the airlines busiest time, my whole plan is somewhat scuppered.

[jamesgrainge]

Find a company offering 5/4 roster and go on a few shorter breaks with your new found wealth :ok:

[rudestuff]

No night rating needed? Does it not get dark in the USA?!

The FAA PPL includes night training so you get night privileges by default (unless you take your test in Alaska in the summer)

How much effort do you want to put in? You're talking about 2 years, possibly 3 years - but it's easily achievable in 1 year. If you consider your career earnings, every year you delay will cost you at least £100,000. There are jobs now. There might not be in 3 years. Borrow the money and get it done asap.

[wiggy]

tgw....

is it likely airlines restrict when holiday can be taken?

if I can't book holiday during school breaks , presumably the airlines busiest time, my whole plan is somewhat scuppered.


Ahhh......welcome to the realities of commercial flying...

I can’t speak for all airlines but I suspect some form of restriction is almost a given .....

We are seniority based airline but even so have a points system to try and stop the senior pilots hoovering up the popular leave periods, avoiding working Christmas etc..

[Scouseflier85]

Just a quick one guys and girls i am currently 32 and my dilemma is to go integrated or modular, I know of integrated cadets in there mid 30s who have gained employment at EZY. My preference would be modular as it’s the cheaper of the two, but begs the question how many mid 30 cadets the like RYR take when competition is so fierce from young guys Queuing up for a type rating, the gamble to me seems pretty straight forward 50-60k for modular with frozen atpl with maybe little hope of employment or 100k+ gamble whitetail at a big provider eg L3 Fte cae etc just looking foy any help guidance anyone been in my position gained employment mid 30s after traing thanks in advance.

[Hawker400]

If you are worried about getting time off in the Summer then this industry might not be for you.


I'm not in commercial aviation but hope to be after converting to EASA. As someone who has worked for a few years in private executive jets and some organ transport in my 6 years flying professionally I have never spent a New year's at home and most Nationals holidays were away as well.

I'm not saying commercial is like this but a lot of people aren't ready for the compromises you make in your work/life balance.

I actually studied my PPL with a guy that asked the instructor if theres an airline that would respect getting Saturdays off because he was a seventh day Adventist haha

[Stunner]

Hello there lightheart. I am currently looking to join either quality fly in Madrid or Atlantic fta in cork Ireland at the age of 37.
It pleased me to read your thread as all I've heard Is the grand old age issue.
I would be interested to hear the school you used in America that incorporates the commercial experience at the end of training.
I do remember seen this before and any info on quality fly would be much appreciated.
Regards.

[jackrabbitslim7]

Hi all,
I'm 29 years old, only a few hours into my PPL, always wished to be a professional pilot (don't care if airline or not), I've seen that an air school in Poland have a 0 to fATPL, for 45 000 € in 18 month. I have the money, no mortgage, and would still have money left if I spend 50 - 70k in pilot training.

Am I too old to take the jump in 2018 (let's say 2019 because of the delay) ?
Also, let's say I get my fATPL in two years, so by 31 / 32 or even 33 to be pessimistic, do you think I stand a chance of finding a job ? I don't intend to go straight to airline but it seems to me that everybody is only aimed toward airliners as if it was the only sector recruiting. Are there no jobs in GA or Corporate in Europe or abroad ?

My main concern is the value of a fATPL, are you employable with this (even just para-drop, glider towing or instruction if I pass a FI certification) or are there so many pilots in the market that no places are available for a new old (let's say 33) pilot ? I would be willing to move anywhere for my first job (would be limited by visa so I suppose I could only fly in Europe maybe Asia or Africa).

At my age I know it's now or never, I won't do it if I have no chances at all of finding any kind of pilot job, but if it's possible, I would take the jump. Worst case scenario, I would have passed ppl vfr night and ifr always useful for a hobby, be short of 70k, and without a job, but I'm sure in my sector I would find another job easily.

[rudestuff]

I wonder how long before people think they're over the hill at 21? Get the licence you pillock.

[KT1988]

@jackrabbitslim7: Just go for it, I am also 29 and started from 0 in December 2017 when I realized that doing paperwork in Norway for the rest of my life is not realizing my dream. I did the theory exam for PPL in January and I am already flying while reading more useful theory + training on AE for the ATPL exams during the time outside my 5 flying slots during the week.

I actually chose to train at 0-ATPL+FI in Poland (not only because I am Polish :D ) for about 49 000 Euro (210 000 PLN) instead of paying like 100 000 ++ Euro for less flying hours and more theory in western Europe. But if you plan to fly for some very special airlines then maybe you have to have it on your CV that you did some CTC, L3, CAE or something else if you want get invited on interview + screening there with only 200h from school. As for me I believe its more better to get more flying with both traditional and glass cockpit planes + FI for less than half the price of the integrated school. And you get done just as fast or even faster if the weather is good. And if experiencing problems with getting invited to the interview and the screening, its possible to pay 30 000 for type rating and 500 hours (+ get the job after the line training if you are good) and still get 20 000 euro cheaper from it than the integrated course for 100 000 ++.

So don`t wait for 2019 just go for it, visit Warszawa. Lodz, Poznan check the schools and choose the one you find most trustworthy, I am satisfied with my choice if I chose the integrated outside of Poland I would still be just reading the theory, while now I can both read the theory for ATPL and fly. Its much better that way since you have more than enough time to learn + you can learn by heart the stuff that is important when you see how important it is in the plane (and learn much important stuff that is not asked about in the exams), in addition to what you learn for the exam.

[Yodax]

I'm 36 and just had an assessment with Ryanair, so I guess they don't care so much about age.
Still didn't pass, but that's another story.

[jackrabbitslim7]

Ok thanks for your replies. I just wonder what can of job can you find with just a fATPL with only 250 hours. I suppose I would need to log way more hours after the CPL, and maybe pay for a type rating before even being able to apply for job offers.

[KT1988]

@jackrabbitslim7: Well if there are no invites for interviews after getting done with the flight training then there are probably 2 paths: 1. Teach new students as FI and build up hours until getting the invitation eventually or 2. Teach new students as FI until being completely sure that enough time have passed since applying everywhere and then use 30 000 on type rating + 500 hours on B 737 or A 320. A type rating without at least 500 hours on type is probably not giving any bonus or even worse the company hiring will miss the opportunity to supervise your type rating training.

Either way even with type rating + 500 hours on type its still 20 000 Euro less than west European integrated schools with known names and probably a better starting point with those 500 hours than 200 hours, no FI hours and no jet or turboprop hours.

[coboltblue]

Hey guys,

I’m just looking for a little advice. My situation is as follows

I’m currently 15 months through a 3-year course to become a Merchant Navy Deck Officer, I love the navigation side of the course. Having been to sea once already I have however realized I’m just not passionate about shipping or the ships themselves.

I worked in the airline industry before as cabin crew in the UK and the Middle East, then planned roster for a low-cost carrier in Australia. I have always loved the Airline Industry, but it has taken being involved in another transportation sector to make me realize planes, airports, and hotels are my home, and a taste of navigation to make me dream of moving from the cabin to the cockpit.

My issue is I’m 36 years old and I’ll be almost 39 by the time I finish my Merchant Navy Cadetship.

The ways I see it is I have 2 options

1: Finish the cadetship and try to get a job onboard a ship as an Officer and uses the cash and time off to get my fATPL.

2: Quit now and use the cash I saved in the middle east to go get my license and try to get back into an Industry I know and love doing a job I aspire to.

I'm looking to book my first flying lesson, to get the ball rolling.

Any advice would be great.

[vatir]

Even if you get a job by 40 that will be 20 or 25 years as a pilot. (Given that you keep healthy and don’t end up with medical issues at older age)

[r10bbr]

Hi coboltblue, im currently doing my atpls and i must over stress the route to becoming a pilot is not as easy as one expects, it takes hard work and sacrifices and a lot of hard work and i stress a lot of hard work..also you may not like the route when you start i.e commitments popping up or the long and tiring journeys, what i will state is book yourself a trial lesson and take it from there see if you like the feel and could you see yourself giving your 100%, also if you do decide to go down the aviation route you can opt by choosing the modular route whilst also completing your cadetship..

[vermouth]

Wow, guys.
I thought I am the only with this question. So nice to see other souls.
My name is Krys, I am almost 37, I currently reside in Dusseldorf, DE. Speak bulgarian, polish, english, some german and some french :).
I am still working in totally another sector since I graduated university - selling tasty cookies as international trader.
But recently I was actively thinking of restarting my career, with something I would really like.

So here am I know, just by coincidence in this forum reading interesting stuff and wondering already where to begin. Obviously I am not too old - right? :)
My wife has honorable job - she is a surgeon, we have small kid and I think I deserve to try an equally honorable chance for the remaining 20 years of my career - so why not something that I like ... Being positioned in Germany gives good options for possible start of piloting career when the time would come. But as beginning, any strong advise where to start with the research of training? Are there any training subsidized by companies like LH or EWG, Condor ... or it all depends on personal choice and cost.
Any tips will be highly appreciated.

[huseyydemm]

I am 38.. flying for not more than a year..... I think it is never too late to start something new,
I think if you are not happy, don't waste years with something you do not really like. You will regret it. And time will pass extra sloooooow this time.
However cabin crew is a dream job, flying a plane is heaven, really.

Just fly!!!

Nowadays its easier... theoretical and practical course, home learning, simulator games, flying applications, forums to ask other pilots and everything helps us to become good (better) pilots. Before was "only" the instructor and the book.
So you are not alone! we help you from far :)





Hey guys,

I’m just looking for a little advice. My situation is as follows

I’m currently 15 months through a 3-year course to become a Merchant Navy Deck Officer, I love the navigation side of the course. Having been to sea once already I have however realized I’m just not passionate about shipping or the ships themselves.

I worked in the airline industry before as cabin crew in the UK and the Middle East, then planned roster for a low-cost carrier in Australia. I have always loved the Airline Industry, but it has taken being involved in another transportation sector to make me realize planes, airports, and hotels are my home, and a taste of navigation to make me dream of moving from the cabin to the cockpit.

My issue is I’m 36 years old and I’ll be almost 39 by the time I finish my Merchant Navy Cadetship.

The ways I see it is I have 2 options

1: Finish the cadetship and try to get a job onboard a ship as an Officer and uses the cash and time off to get my fATPL.

2: Quit now and use the cash I saved in the middle east to go get my license and try to get back into an Industry I know and love doing a job I aspire to.

I'm looking to book my first flying lesson, to get the ball rolling.

Any advice would be great.

[jaimere66]

Hi

Excellent post. Give us confidence for those that are actually trying to accomplish this. I am 35 turning 36 by June. I got my license in 2010, I tried to find a job but I never did so now I have a wife and two daughters. I own a couple food businesses but never really like. I went back alone to my natural country ( Spain) I have lived in Dominican Republic for the last 7 years. So here I am hoping to get an interview soon

Regards

Jaime

[nadz]

To the older dreamers out there 40+, of which I am one, I would advise you to be very careful if you are thinking of undertaking fATPL/CPL training, because the chances of you gaining any type of flying job apart from instructing is almost zero. I understand how much you want to be a pilot because I also want it badly but after much careful consideration I have have decided that the most rational thing to do is to give up on the dream and deal with it and move on, it is easy to get seduced by the dream and think that some older guys get airline jobs, its tough enough for the younger guys and your life experience counts for nothing, the only previous experience that helps is to have a good degree or qualification, what matters is competencies relevant to flying, which as a older guy you may have but so do the younger guys, and you are not as quick a learner as your younger self even if you dont want to admit that to yourself, the brain goes into decline from the mid twenties. I know myself that I am not as sharp anymore.
So if I was to follow the dream, what would happen is that I would spend a lot of cash, eventually get my fATPL and 200 hours, then I would have maybe a 2 percent chance of getting a flying job, I would then maybe be able to apply for instructor jobs, but is that what we really dream of? no its not. And an extra risk is that if any hiring downturn happens before you finish training you emerge into a quiet hiring market and because of your age you can't afford to wait for the market to turn up again, unlike the younger guys, its all risk and most likely no reward.
I missed a few opportunities in my life to try become a pilot for various reasons. The desire to fly is very strong but sometimes you just have to move on and admit to yourself that it is not realistic anymore, even the 35 year old people are just at the realistic upper age limit to have any real chance, if you are early forties or older then you are way down on the bell curve of hire-ability, it can be difficult to admit to yourself that you have missed the boat. Its not that there is no chance of a good flying job, its that its so unlikely that the risk reward is not worth it unless you are rich and wont miss the money. you might think that some regional turboprop operation would be glad to have an older guy, but there is a queue of younger guys trying to get those positions, ryanair dont take every young guy on the market even in the current hiring boom. So many people walk away with a very expensive piece of paper and get nothing from it.
those are my thoughts on the matter.

[jamesgrainge]

You don't really want to be a pilot. Sorry, harsh but true. If you've had numerous opportunities but never taken them, there is always something that has stopped you. I'm 29 and this is my first "opportunity" to be a pilot, and I'm taking it.

Your perspective as an outsider is pretty much irrelevant. Again, sorry for any offence.

[wiggy]

You don't really want to be a pilot. Sorry, harsh but true. If you've had numerous opportunities but never taken them, there is always something that has stopped you. I'm 29 and this is my first "opportunity" to be a pilot, and I'm taking it.

Your perspective as an outsider is pretty much irrelevant. Again, sorry for any offence.

:=

Well if that was a response to nadz's post may politely I suggest you start working on your CRM skills...blowing somebody out of the water with a few platitudes when they have advocated their position quite eloquently ( BTW that is something that is a CRM skill) isn't going to go down well in a multi crew environment....

As for nadz's decision itself...well, life is different for everybody and sometimes people can't just drop everthing at the drop of a hat, so I'd be cutting some slack rather than being judgemental.......

[jamesgrainge]

:=

Well if that was a response to nadz's post may politely I suggest you start working on your CRM skills...blowing somebody out of the water with a few platitudes when they have advocated their position quite eloquently ( BTW that is something that is a CRM skill) isn't going to go down well in a multi crew environment....

As for nadz's decision itself...well, life is different for everybody and sometimes people can't just drop everthing at the drop of a hat, so I'd be cutting some slack rather than being judgemental.......

There's a difference between someone giving advice who has tried and not succeeded, to someone who hasn't even tried, wouldn't you agree. CRM is taking relevant information to make a decision. We don't even know if he has a ppl.

The poster in question is more than welcome to share his "eloquent" viewpoint, and I reserve the right as an optimist currently working his way through it to encourage people to try the impossible.

[macdo]

I reckon a few folk on this thread need to refer back to post #1 for inspiration.
The large UK airline I work for have taken some quite elderly FO's on with low hours recently.

[nadz]

You don't really want to be a pilot. Sorry, harsh but true. If you've had numerous opportunities but never taken them, there is always something that has stopped you. I'm 29 and this is my first "opportunity" to be a pilot, and I'm taking it.

Your perspective as an outsider is pretty much irrelevant. Again, sorry for any offence.

You are only 29, your situation is very different from someone mid forties, you have maybe 10 years from now to get your first flying job, older guys don't have that luxury. You are quick to pronounce judgement upon me without knowing any facts about my situation, life is complicated sometimes. a good pilot should be more considered and rational than to rush to conclusions like that.
my perspective as an outsider is relevant to guys in a similar situation to myself, we could all just say to older dreamers, ''go ahead and follow the dream'' but the negatives and likely outcome do need to be considered, if you are basically a bit too old.
I have an old friend the same age as myself who flies the 777 for BA and his advice is that its too late if you are my age. There will always be a few exceptions but that is what they are, exceptions, most older guys would just be wasting their money. even younger guys have had to give up after finishing training because they may have graduated into a bad hiring market and by the time things turn around again, a whole load of new eager younger graduates are competing for the same jobs. Times are good right now, but its cyclical and could go quiet again at anytime.

[nadz]

I reckon a few folk on this thread need to refer back to post #1 for inspiration.
The large UK airline I work for have taken some quite elderly FO's on with low hours recently.

Define quite elderly

[jamesgrainge]

Do you posess a PPL?

Say a person has a PPL, has done at least 150 hours,possibly even has some further ratings accrued over the course of their life. At age 40 it's going to cost them £20k to go and do the CPL etc, qualified before 45, still has another 20 years of flying as a career. Why would you not?

As I have said before, without the paper the most you can ever fly is your imagination. Go for it, you're only here once and regret is a hell of a thing to live with.

[nadz]

Do you posess a PPL?

Say a person has a PPL, has done at least 150 hours,possibly even has some further ratings accrued over the course of their life. At age 40 it's going to cost them £20k to go and do the CPL etc, qualified before 45, still has another 20 years of flying as a career. Why would you not?

As I have said before, without the paper the most you can ever fly is your imagination. Go for it, you're only here once and regret is a hell of a thing to live with.

In that scenario you are correct, if you already have most of the money spent then you should finish your training, but I am referring to someone mid forties who has yet to pay the full 80 to 100K to get fully trained up.
I haven't completed my PPL yet, i started it a long time ago, everything in life is easy until you have kids, then a lot of options disappear quickly.

[rudestuff]

You mean the full 40k to get trained up?

[jamesgrainge]

I haven't completed my PPL yet.

In that case can I respectfully ask you not to state what makes a "good pilot"?

Back to the question in hand, do you work in airline recruitment?

[macdo]

Define quite elderly

Late 30's. But I have to say most of the very low hour joiners are 20's. That said i know of one guy in his 50's with very low hours got to interview/sim.

Worth adding that i was 41 when taken on, with TP time only.

[nadz]

Late 30's. But I have to say most of the very low hour joiners are 20's. That said i know of one guy in his 50's with very low hours got to interview/sim.

Worth adding that i was 41 when taken on, with TP time only.

You must have started your TP job mid to late thirties. You could probably draw a line at 40 as the approximate cutoff age for a realistic chance to start an airline career, it does happen after 40 but it gets more unlikely, of the 50 plus year olds undergoing training, maybe only 1:50 will get any interview/assessment
and the older that you are, you better have a good pre flying career background story such as a good technical degree or something impressive to prove your competence, this applies to guys over 30 also, it doesn't look good on the cv if you are over 30 and have not achieved much professionally up to now apart from a fATPL licence.

[PA28161]

You must have started your TP job mid to late thirties. You could probably draw a line at 40 as the approximate cutoff age for a realistic chance to start an airline career, it does happen after 40 but it gets more unlikely, of the 50 plus year olds undergoing training, maybe only 1:50 will get any interview/assessment
and the older that you are, you better have a good pre flying career background story such as a good technical degree or something impressive to prove your competence, this applies to guys over 30 also, it doesn't look good on the cv if you are over 30 and have not achieved much professionally up to now apart from a fATPL licence.

There is no such thing as a fATPL. When you graduate ATO (CTC/L3/OAAA et al) you have, hopefully, a CPL/IR/MCC[JOC]. The CAA does not recognise anything called a fATPL it doesn't exist. You get ATPL stamped on your licence after:

1500hrs of which 500 hrs is jet time on type
You have passed your airlines' line proficiency check/skill test after 1500 hrs
By this time you probably will be bumped up to a senior first officer

For some reason, which eludes me, people on this site seem to think that by passing the 14 ATPL theory exams they somehow become ATPL's or fATPL's.

In my profession, you do become a doctor until you are fully registered by the GMC after 6 months post graduate house physician/house surgeon posts in a recognised teaching hospital, even though you have passed all the pre-clinical and three-year post clinical exams

[PA28161]

Correction .....in my profession should read .. you don't.....

[Citationcj2]

There is no such thing as a fATPL. When you graduate ATO (CTC/L3/OAAA et al) you have, hopefully, a CPL/IR/MCC[JOC]. The CAA does not recognise anything called a fATPL it doesn't exist. You get ATPL stamped on your licence after:

1500hrs of which 500 hrs is jet time on type
You have passed your airlines' line proficiency check/skill test after 1500 hrs
By this time you probably will be bumped up to a senior first officer

For some reason, which eludes me, people on this site seem to think that by passing the 14 ATPL theory exams they somehow become ATPL's or fATPL's.

In my profession, you do become a doctor until you are fully registered by the GMC after 6 months post graduate house physician/house surgeon posts in a recognised teaching hospital, even though you have passed all the pre-clinical and three-year post clinical exams

The reason most people refer to it as a fATPL,( even some airlines call it fATPL as a part of their requirement , even there is no such thing) but it gives an indication that the licence holder has completed all the necessary skill tests, atpl exams, CPL,IR,MCC/JOC and so on.

Altough an fATPL holder is a CPL holder and working its way to the ATPL licence, a CPL holder only can also be someone that only completed 9 of the theory exam, as this is the only requirement for a CPL only holder. Not all CPL holders wish to work on JAR 25 aircraft.

So in theory if they were only referring it to a CPL holders, it could really be anyone on the list..hence fATPL saying

[Reverserbucket]

1500hrs of which 500 hrs is jet time on type
You have passed your airlines' line proficiency check/skill test after 1500 hrs
By this time you probably will be bumped up to a senior first officer Almost PA28, 1500 hours of which 500 needs to be on a multi-pilot type, by which time you will have long passed an LPC. In BA, SFO is achieved after two years in the company regardless of previous experience.

nadz
I have an old friend the same age as myself who flies the 777 for BA and his advice is that its too late if you are my age...and who has possibly been at BA for a number of years with the accumulated seniority that brings as well as being on an attractive fleet. The prospect of starting out at the same age would mean it would be highly unlikely you would achieve the same before retirement (particularly if your friend is a Skipper) but not so for all operators. I was told last week that for one sizeable EU operator F/O recruits in their mid-30's to mid 40's are the most desirable because of what they will likely give back over the course of their employment - he cited commitment, life experience (particularly for potential training roles) and longevity with the company, meaning this group would more likely make a career with one operator than be tempted to head overseas in part due to other commitments etc. So the question is not so much age (although I agree with nadz that sharpness degrades of course) but really whether you can afford to devote yourself to full-time training (modular is pretty full-on regardless of what others say), absorb what is likely to be a sizable pay cut by the time you reach late-30's/early-40's, accept that you will be spending more time away from home (more than likely), be absent for family occasions (birthdays, Christmas etc), and accept that you will possibly not achieve command on a wide-body Airbus or Boeing before retirement, and assuming the cost of training is no barrier, why not?

[Juanbpalacio14]

Hi. Mi name is Juan. I'm a commercial pilot in Colombia with 213 hours and I have Spanish nacionality.
in this moment I'm in England and I 'm considering make my license conversion in Egnatia (Greece).(distance course )
I'm new europe (aviation enviroment) and is Very important for me, know about the real offer job to pilots with 200 hours . Is s good moment to study aviation?. If you pay a type rating for yourself, increases the oportunities to get a job?. Is the age a problem? Because when I finish the conversion I will be 28.
sorry for the questions but, As I said, I new in europe and I dont have a lot of information
thanks

[JakubEGSC]

I will be 38 when I finish training. I am still going in for it.

It's financially very hard and the brain is a bit stale - but the feeling of trying is exhilarating.

[rudestuff]

^^good for you. A great time to get into it.

[DB777]

I will be 38 when I finish training. I am still going in for it.

It's financially very hard and the brain is a bit stale - but the feeling of trying is exhilarating.

JakubEGSC, i'm local to you – where are you going for ground school?

[JakubEGSC]

Hey DB777,

I live in Newmarket 15miles from Cambridge and fly from North Weald. If you fancy to meet up for a coffee or beer let me know I can drive up anywhere. Would be good meet fellow students.

I am doing ATPL theory with Bristol Ground School, but... via Bartolini Air in Poland (distance learning with 2 weeks of ground school in September).

PM me/Whatsapp/call if you want on 07784162735.

Jakub

[2unlimited]

Correction .....in my profession should read .. you don't.....
You know there is an edit button, so you don't actually need to make new post to correct yourself?

[Sethorion]

My research indicates that the job market for fresh pilots can be tricky for people starting at advanced ages. I'm particularly interested in this because I'm going to be at least 35 (am 26 now) before I can afford to pay for all of my certificates and training.

Has anyone here heard of a mid thirties cadet pilot breaking into the commercial sector recently?

I've noticed that most of Ryanair's recruits in their monthly corporate photos look young but a couple of the cadets do look older.

[Nurse2Pilot]

There have been cases of even older pilots getting jobs but no idea if that happened recently or how long ago. Where did you do your research?

[RHSandLovingIt]

Not in Europe... But I personally know one guy who got a job with an airline (Twin Turboprop) at the age of 43... ;)

1950+ TT and not having flown commercially for 2 years... It was worth keeping the licence, ratings and medical current. :ok:

Granted most of the guys/gals I've encountered on assessment and subsequent Type Rating course were early to mid-20's... But there is still hope for us old'uns ;)

[Sethorion]

There have been cases of even older pilots getting jobs but no idea if that happened recently or how long ago. Where did you do your research?
Mostly through the Internet. There are a few stories of older people becoming pilots but very few seem to talk about it based upon my searches.

Having a technically oriented career and a similar degree all seem to help if the things I've read are true.

I hear Ryanair are the best place to apply for older pilots but I'm not sure who to go towards if that fails.

[Nurse2Pilot]

There are a lot of old pilots here and I'm sure not all of them became pilots in their 20s. I wonder if anyone's done a survey regarding the age at which airline pilots start their aviation careers? Long story short, I don't think what we see is representative of what's actually happening. For sure most of the pilots start out young but we don't really know what percentage of pilots started later in their lives.

[airbourne]

30 years in the same business.

Member of Pprune for 18 years.

PPL A & PPL H

45 and starting out on the road to ATPL's!!!!

When is all said and done, I would think I would have 17-18 years good flying and FINALLY chase my other dream.

[Halfwayback]

I was 48 when I took my ATPLs - and started as a DEC with a major British Airline on a 4 engine turbo prop! Then the doors slammed closed behind me.

Go for it - if you don't, you will never know if you could have made it or not!

HWB

[Esvees]

Hi all,

Pleasure to meet you all, I've been reading regularly, but was hoping to get some good advice on options for this. I'm currently 39, work as an ex-pat manager in Shanghai, have a university degree and en executive MBA. Currently no kids, just a girlfriend. Every three months I go back to our company HQ in the Netherlands and usually get in some flying with Premier at Norwich airport (where my dad lives) I am very close to completing my PPL, despite the distance and sometimes non co-operative weather. My job is ok, as it pays relatively well, but it's a bit of a dead-end and we're getting really tired of living in China. And if ever I am going to be a professional pilot, this is probably my last chance.

I'm not going to pose the old "am I too old to be a pilot" question again as there are lots of answers already and I figure as with most things in life, sheer determination and intelligence and a bit of luck can see you through. What I'm looking at is training organizations that would still take on an old-timer like me that have some pretty good links to the airlines and where with any luck at the end I could end up doing a type-rating.

- Is it fair to assume that a large organization such as CAE is more likely to have the network and brand to land you a flying job at the end or are there smaller academies that are good at this too?
- I tried the KLM flight academy in the Netherlands ( I can speak Dutch) already; even though there is no official maximum age, they do have a soft cap of around 27,5 years old. KLM mostly recruits from them, but I'm unlikely to be accepted. I'm looking at Atlantic flight academy as well, due to the links to Ryanair. Are there any others worth looking at that might accept us oldies that the carriers recruit from directly?
- Usually, can your PPL allow you to skip certain parts of the practical course? (not the 15 written exams obviously)

Just looking for some no-nonsense advice here. Belgium or UK (Norfolk) are easiest for me as I can live rent-free in either, but I'll actually consider anywhere in the world as long as the help in landing that type rating/first job at the end is good. Relatively comfortable money-wise as I have saved quite a bit and can always get a regular job if things don't pan out, but I would love to fly for a living.

Thanks for any insights!

[Outofnowhere]

Why would you want to spend 100k when a fATPL costs 40k? You could start at 40 and still have a 25 year career ahead of you. If you're looking for people to talk you out of it, it's probably not the career for you.
Hello there,
I was hoping for some guidance here. I am 37, based in Dubai for a full time Job. To be able to finance myself, I am considering the modular distant learning route. All support and guidance welcomed on the best academies to contact for an EASA fATPL.

[johnjohncafe]

30 years in the same business.

Member of Pprune for 18 years.

PPL A & PPL H

45 and starting out on the road to ATPL's!!!!

When is all said and done, I would think I would have 17-18 years good flying and FINALLY chase my other dream.


Bonne chance mate !!!

[topgunT23]

48 and I have my first interview interview coming up :eek: Got my licence and ratings 9 years ago but it all got put on the back-burner, what with family commitments and moving to the other side of the world. Can anyone recommend which psychometric tests to use as practice? Thanks

[youngretired]

48 and I have my first interview interview coming up :eek: Got my licence and ratings 9 years ago but it all got put on the back-burner, what with family commitments and moving to the other side of the world. Can anyone recommend which psychometric tests to use as practice? Thanks

Ask them directly what app to study or try SkyTest (https://www.skytest.com).

[topgunT23]

Ask them directly what app to study or try Skytest.
Cheers youngretired
Can anyone help with quick mental maths techniques for the likes of the tests? i.e. A man exchanges 368 pounds for dollars at an exchange rate of 1 pound=1:72 dollars. How many dollars does he get in return? (answer to the nearest dollar)
If you travel 1248 miles, how much fuel will you need if you burn 4500 kgs per hour and are travelling at 72O mph?; A 737 flies 930 miles in 75 minutes. How many miles does it fly in 4 hours 45 minutes assuming as constant speed?
If an aircraft departed an airfield and headed directly south for 16 miles and then turned onto a heading of 27O degrees for 12 minutes at an average speed of 80 miles per hour, how many miles is it (in a straight line) from its original destination?
How many nautical miles can an aircraft travel if it is carrying 288O kgs of fuel and burns 240 kgs an hour averaging a speed of 375 knots?

This sort of thing. It's up there but a bit cloudy after not using it for so long, so any quick help or poke in the right direction, as the topic has no doubt been covered on here before, would be greatly appreciated. Don't mean to hijack the post. If I need to ask elsewhere or start a new thread, please let me know.

[RHSandLovingIt]

Not sure about "quick" mental maths... what sort of time limit are you facing? :confused:

But I generally find that for these sorts of exercises, you often need to spot the "short cuts" to get the figures into nice round numbers... usually, this is due to converting values from "hours" to "minutes" or recognising that 12 minutes = 1/5th of an hour etc... or decimals into whole numbers by removing the decimal point and adding back later on... and a lot of the values given will be evenly divisible by 60 to give you "per minute" values etc... then a bit of pencil/paper multiplication will usually give you the answer. Sometimes I find that breaking the multiplication or division down into smaller parts helps to calculate it mentally... ie. 3960 / 360... => 3600 / 360 = 10... 360 left over... 360 / 360 = 1... 10 + 1 = 11... so 3960 / 360 = 11

A man exchanges 368 pounds for dollars at an exchange rate of 1 pound=1:72 dollars. How many dollars does he get in return? (answer to the nearest dollar)

Is straight multiplication if you remove the decimal point... 368 * 172 = 63292, then put the decimal point back in => 632.92... rounded to nearest dollar = 633


If you travel 1248 miles, how much fuel will you need if you burn 4500 kgs per hour and are travelling at 72O mph?

convert the "per hour" figures into "per minute"... wouldn't you know it, 720 mph is divisible by 60 ;)
720 / 60 = 12 miles a minute....

1248 miles / 12 = 104 minutes... (1200 / 12 = 100... 48 / 12 = 4... 100+4)

What about the fuel burn? huh, look at that 4500 kg/hr is also cleanly divisible by 60 (4200 / 60 = 70, 300 / 60 = 5)
4500 / 60 = 75kg/minute...

Then you're left with basic multiplication:
104 * 75 = 7800 kg

The basic multiplication can also be done in chunks... 100 * 75 = 7500... 75 * 4 = 300... 7500+300 = 7800 etc


A 737 flies 930 miles in 75 minutes. How many miles does it fly in 4 hours 45 minutes assuming as constant speed?

What I'm seeing here is "15 minute" chunks... 75 = 5x 15 minute chunks... 4 hrs 45 = 19x 15 minute chunks...

930 / 5 = 186 (pro tip: dividing by 5 is the same as dividing by 10 and then doubling the answer)... 930 / 10 = 93... *2 = 186 ;)

You're then left with "easy" multiplication of 186 * 19 = 3534...

You could also do 186 * 20 = 3720... then subtract the 186 to give 3534.


If an aircraft departed an airfield and headed directly south for 16 miles and then turned onto a heading of 27O degrees for 12 minutes at an average speed of 80 miles per hour, how many miles is it (in a straight line) from its original destination?

Ok... so 12 minutes = 1/5th of an hour... 80 / 5 = 16 miles...

south then west is a right angle triangle with two sides of 16 miles and 16 miles... I'm not sure this is solvable with mental math... but I know with a 45-45-90 triangle like this... the hypotenuse is x* sqrt(2)... :} maybe the a-squared + b-squared = c-squared? Honestly, I'd probably just guess knowing that sqrt(2) is around 1.4... 16 * 1.4 ~= 22.5 miles.


How many nautical miles can an aircraft travel if it is carrying 288O kgs of fuel and burns 240 kgs an hour averaging a speed of 375 knots?

need to get total endurance... fuel onboard / fuel burn... 2880 / 240... well 2400 / 240 = 10... leaving 480... 480/240 = 2... so 2880 / 240 = 12...

so we have 12 hours of fuel on board... again we're doing "simple" multiplication in a speed/time/distance calc... 375 kts * 12 hrs = 4500 nm

Again, you can always do 375 * 10 = 3750... 375 * 2 = 750... 3750 + 750 = 4500...


You'll find that as you practice, practice, practice... you'll start to notice the "short cuts" ;) :ok:

[2unlimited]

Cheers youngretired
Can anyone help with quick mental maths techniques for the likes of the tests? i.e. A man exchanges 368 pounds for dollars at an exchange rate of 1 pound=1:72 dollars. How many dollars does he get in return? (answer to the nearest dollar)
If you travel 1248 miles, how much fuel will you need if you burn 4500 kgs per hour and are travelling at 72O mph?; A 737 flies 930 miles in 75 minutes. How many miles does it fly in 4 hours 45 minutes assuming as constant speed?
If an aircraft departed an airfield and headed directly south for 16 miles and then turned onto a heading of 27O degrees for 12 minutes at an average speed of 80 miles per hour, how many miles is it (in a straight line) from its original destination?
How many nautical miles can an aircraft travel if it is carrying 288O kgs of fuel and burns 240 kgs an hour averaging a speed of 375 knots?

This sort of thing. It's up there but a bit cloudy after not using it for so long, so any quick help or poke in the right direction, as the topic has no doubt been covered on here before, would be greatly appreciated. Don't mean to hijack the post. If I need to ask elsewhere or start a new thread, please let me know.

What companies are you applying to where you need this?

It is just practise for sure, but I don't see many companies who uses such tests that much.

[topgunT23]

Hey 2unlimited, RHSandLovingIt and youngretired Thank you all for taking the time to answer, especially RHS. Apologies for not getting back to you earlier but I've been rather busy. So here's what happened. I asked them which psychometric test they used, the nice lady told me which one but not to worry as it's only personality test, all very relaxed. Various questions, 'I like to work alone'/ I prefer to work in a team...etc
Long story short it, got through that, the interview went well and they only went and offered me the job! So I've been flat out doing TR theory for the last couple of weeks! Can't stop smiling. Who'd have thought it. Thanks again. All the best TT23.

[RHSandLovingIt]

Long story short it, got through that, the interview went well and they only went and offered me the job! So I've been flat out doing TR theory for the last couple of weeks! Can't stop smiling. Who'd have thought it. Thanks again. All the best TT23.
Glad I'm not the only "old fella" getting a hand on that brass ring ;)

Congrats mate... :ok::D blue skies and tailwinds!

[johnjohncafe]

Hey 2unlimited, RHSandLovingIt and youngretired Thank you all for taking the time to answer, especially RHS. Apologies for not getting back to you earlier but I've been rather busy. So here's what happened. I asked them which psychometric test they used, the nice lady told me which one but not to worry as it's only personality test, all very relaxed. Various questions, 'I like to work alone'/ I prefer to work in a team...etc
Long story short it, got through that, the interview went well and they only went and offered me the job! So I've been flat out doing TR theory for the last couple of weeks! Can't stop smiling. Who'd have thought it. Thanks again. All the best TT23.

Many congratulations topgunT23 !!!!! You showed to all of us the force of will. Great job pal ^^

I am in the middle of ATPL theory to convert my FAA CPL to EASA at the age of 40.
Could you tell us which operator did you make it with ?

Again Congrats !!

[eeeaddict]

Honestly with all the self funded self sponsored BS I'm not sure why age would even be a factor, especially considering someone older with a family has more "reason" to be responsible.

[az91]

Hey guys,

I'm interested in hearing some thoughts on my situation. I have always wanted to become a pilot but due to financial reasons I never managed to, I managed to get a good degree and a good job in tech. I'm 29 now and live in the UK with some responsibilities (house+married), unfortunately, I didn't manage to save enough to cover my training costs and will be looking for a loan to cover the cost of obtaining the majority of hours.

I'm interested in hearing about the best path to becoming a commercial pilot (Airliners) in the UK, if it's too late for someone in his late 20's and more information on the cost and financials to get a position in an airline.

Thank you!

[Spidermann]

I understand that Skyborne at Gloucester has a finance programme. Worth taking a look at their website.

29 is definitely NOT too old, not with the current hiring boom, but it can't last forever so best to get a move on.

[changenow]

Hello everyone...

I might fit in well into this long-running thread, as I am 34 now, but want to become a pilot. I'm based in Germany/EU, so my questions are aimed at people who can judge what's going on in this part of the world...

Up until this month I was the manager and owner of a mid-sized company, which had no connection to aviation at all. Also I don't own a PPL so far. Now I have sold my company and will be able to do whatever I want, at least financially.

1) I guess I am too old for signing up for a cadet program from one of the airlines (like LH groups MPL program), or do you think there are chances of me still being accepted at this age?

2) But even if I am too old for the cadet programs with the airlines, I should be able to make the ATPL privately, and pay for it myself, too. Is there anything which could prevent me from doing so?

3) Are there any flight schools you could suggest me looking at in Germany, or over all the EU? (At least as English and German are sufficient as languages.)

4) If I should be succesful accquiring the ATPL, how will my future look like? I think there are many airlines right now taking you without a typerating? But also many who offer you a job where you have to pay for the type-rating right? Do these airlines take you with a privately funded ATPL and not much experience (except for the one from making the ATPL)?

Many questions, I know, but I hope you can answer some for me. I find that there are a lot of informations available for young people just out of school and how they can apply to the cadet-programs, but not much for older people like me, 15 years after school ended. I have already looked into the tests for physcis, maths and English and while they are challenging, they should be doable for me. I also finished a check with a flight doctor, who told me I would easily pass the class 1 medical. So for me I'm now interested in the practical stuff, where to start and what to avoid...

Thanks in advance for your answers,
ChangeNow

[miramis]

Hey! I'm also 29 and currently saving up money for flight school. Been asking myself the same questions (not married though so I dont have that "responsibility"). How far have you come? I'm Swedish but looking into getting my license in Canada and work there.
Good luck!!!:)

[ImFlyingHigh]

Hi All,

It's my first post on here so apologies if this topic has been covered before. I'll be extremely grateful for any feedback received!

So, I'm starting my ATPL distance learning in a month's time and I'm wondering what tips both past or present students found helped them. Annoyingly, my recent research has found so many conflicting responses from others to a point that I'm very confused as to what the best method is. Now I know everyone is different in terms of what way they retain information, but one of the biggest decisions I have to make is whether or not I focus on the questions banks more so than the books. In my opinion, time is against me so I do not want to start on the wrong foot, nor waste valuable time. I'm at the moment I'm 32, 33 in December, a current PPL holder with NR, 60hrs in the book, the plan is to complete the ATPL's by this time next year or the latest May 2020 just before I travel to Poland in June 2020 for my MEP/MEIR/CPL.

I'm completely aware that the ATPL's are on another level from what I've been through, I don't think I've ever spoken to anyone that has a single positive thing to say about the syllabus, structure or volume, in my head I'm mentality prepared for meltdown and prepped to have no life for the duration of the time I'm studying, so I really want to make sure I start out doing it right...it's there is such a thing! If possible, can any of you give me advice on what you found helped you during your study or even better, changes you made that worked better from when you sat your first exams, I'd love to hear your study structure, do's & don't's, tips, changes you made?

Thanks a million!!

[Mar100]

Hi, everyone!

I'm 47 years old and a long time dreamer of aviation. Unfortunately financial costs have kept me away from a career in this business all my life. I'm now at a point in life where I think I either do something about flying now or just forget about it for ever.

Financial costs are still a problem for me. However, I should be able to pay for a PPL right now. My question is if it is realistic to think that at this age I might still get some form of pay in aviation in the future. I know a PPL doesn't allow getting paid for flying. I'm asking about any possible qualifications after the PPL and realistic possibilities of getting jobs after any further investment after the PPL. I would be happy teaching, flying banners, towing or any other jobs as long as it meant flying :-) I don't have the ambition of working in an airline anymore.

I live in the EU so I'm looking for opinions of people who know the european reality. I've already researched extensively all possible further certifications and costs and that's why I'm asking about market job reality for someone starting at this age.

Thank you all for taking your time with my query.

[Mar100]

Hi, everyone!

I'm 47 years old and a long time dreamer of aviation. Unfortunately financial costs have kept me away from a career in this business all my life. I'm now at a point in life where I think I either do something about flying now or just forget about it for ever.

Financial costs are still a problem for me. However, I should be able to pay for a PPL right now. My question is if it is realistic to think that at this age I might still get some form of pay in aviation in the future. I know a PPL doesn't allow getting paid for flying. I'm asking about any possible qualifications after the PPL and realistic possibilities of getting jobs after any further investment after the PPL. I would be happy teaching, flying banners, towing or any other jobs as long as it meant flying :-) I don't have the ambition of working in an airline anymore.

I live in the EU so I'm looking for opinions of people who know the european reality. I've already researched extensively all possible further certifications and costs and that's why I'm asking about job market reality for someone starting at this age.

Thank you all for taking your time with my query.

[jackrabbitslim7]

Hi All,

It's my first post on here so apologies if this topic has been covered before. I'll be extremely grateful for any feedback received!

So, I'm starting my ATPL distance learning in a month's time and I'm wondering what tips both past or present students found helped them. Annoyingly, my recent research has found so many conflicting responses from others to a point that I'm very confused as to what the best method is. Now I know everyone is different in terms of what way they retain information, but one of the biggest decisions I have to make is whether or not I focus on the questions banks more so than the books. In my opinion, time is against me so I do not want to start on the wrong foot, nor waste valuable time. I'm at the moment I'm 32, 33 in December, a current PPL holder with NR, 60hrs in the book, the plan is to complete the ATPL's by this time next year or the latest May 2020 just before I travel to Poland in June 2020 for my MEP/MEIR/CPL.

I'm completely aware that the ATPL's are on another level from what I've been through, I don't think I've ever spoken to anyone that has a single positive thing to say about the syllabus, structure or volume, in my head I'm mentality prepared for meltdown and prepped to have no life for the duration of the time I'm studying, so I really want to make sure I start out doing it right...it's there is such a thing! If possible, can any of you give me advice on what you found helped you during your study or even better, changes you made that worked better from when you sat your first exams, I'd love to hear your study structure, do's & don't's, tips, changes you made?

Thanks a million!!

Hi,

Similar profile here, i'm 30, finishing my PPL in France and expect to go in Poland or maybe another contry next year for CPL IR ME if I finish ATPL in time. I'm not of much help for you since I haven't started ATPL, but from what I've understood, if you want to be efficient, you should read the material to understand but not waste too much time on it and hit the question bank as quickly as you can since you'll normally have the same questions at the exam. Also hitting the question bank can show you where you need to study a bit more. Just my 2cts, as I have not started yet ATPL Theory but I'll soon.
One question, if you are going to Poland, is it Bartolini ?
Do you know if they are booked for 2020 or if there is still a slot avaliable before 2021 (I need to finish my PPL before I can reserve a slot, but I fear it's already too late for 2020) ?

[youngretired]

Hi,

Similar profile here, i'm 30, finishing my PPL in France and expect to go in Poland or maybe another contry next year for CPL IR ME if I finish ATPL in time. I'm not of much help for you since I haven't started ATPL, but from what I've understood, if you want to be efficient, you should read the material to understand but not waste too much time on it and hit the question bank as quickly as you can since you'll normally have the same questions at the exam. Also hitting the question bank can show you where you need to study a bit more. Just my 2cts, as I have not started yet ATPL Theory but I'll soon.
One question, if you are going to Poland, is it Bartolini ?
Do you know if they are booked for 2020 or if there is still a slot avaliable before 2021 (I need to finish my PPL before I can reserve a slot, but I fear it's already too late for 2020) ?
If you already have your PPL, start ATPL ground school as soon as you can because you have to spend certain period on distance education system (hours) plus certain ground school time (5 months for Hungarian GSs for example).
Also, there are more than 50 ATOs in Poland.
Bartolini is -almost- most famous of them. There are many cheaper schools out there. Make list, plan a trip and visit couple of them. ATOs in Poland are evolving -fastly- different states right now as I've seen some. You may find yourself in a very good ATO but also has very bad reputation online and vice versa.

[Okconell.]

I'm 40. Have no family/children (yet.) or mortgage (had one) to concern myself with.

At 37 I started my flight training. When I went for my Class 1 medical the Spanish psychologist asked me "What the hell are you doing becoming a pilot at your age?"

I asked him who he was to tell me what I could or couldn't do. He didn't reply.

Got my FAA and JAA licences. Was away from my partner for 1.5 years and had to move back with my parents for a year. But I finally got there.

Flown commercially in USA/Carib (yes, paid to do a First Officer Programme.) So what! You do what you gotta do to get on in life. It was a strategy to overcome the age aspect. It worked. After that I made a vow never to pay for training again. And I haven't.

On returning to Europe was offered a job in the UK before even had my licence in my hand.

Left that job to return to Spain (for personal reasons). A market where aviation is not strong. "Don't do it!" people in Spain with more hours than me said.

If you're on a desert island, you have a choice. Survive or not. It is your choice. You decide what you want to manifest in your life.

So on arriving back in Spain I boarded planes, trains, cars, got on my bike and visited all aviation companies I thought I could get into. I got two job offers in 6 weeks!

Now I currently have two types current on my licence. I didn't pay for the rating either!

I'm living in a great part of the word, even though I'm in rented accommodation and I'm earning a third of what I used to earn. But hey, I know that as soon as I get to 1500 hours a lot more doors will open. My life has had many changes.

If you don't like change, don't take the plunge. But if you're like me, you now that in life change is inevitable. You want to get there no matter what the nay sayers say. You have to be FOCUSED, DISCIPLINED and SEE yourself there.

There's only so much anaylsis you can do. The fear part is not knowing how things will turn out. That's normal. But if you have faith, are confident in yourself and know how to listen to that voice in your soul, you'll know what to do.

Don't give away your power. Hope this has been of help.

Really Happy to read these, I'm 27 right now and I'm working in my budget to go away and start flying, well my situation it's different I'm at the Cayman Islands but I'm from Honduras and sad to say where I'm right now it's no flying schools around and to go away from the Island I need to have my budget ready, sad to say but I have to work around three years to get there, saying these I have two options I have my mom in Spain Madrid and I will like to know which school you advise to asist and get all the licenses I did already my search and it's kind expensive well like everwhever, and my second option it's Canada I found these school name Langley school and I'm interested in these I love Canada , but In Spain I have my Family so what do you advise from your experience!! I will be happy to hear from you!

​​​​​Kind regards! Safe landings 🛬

[Okconell.]

Slight topic change here, but I notice some of the first threads were back in 2002! Would love to here from anyone that made it and stuck to their guns:ok:

These it's amazing, 2019 and I'm just get here and read from everyone, and hey I'm 27 and I'm working hard to get there I will like to hear if you get there already!!
Kind Regards safe landings! 🛬

[LegioX]

Nowadays people normally start their training even on their 40s and they get a job...i would not be too much worried.

[Victor Golf]

It does get a lot harder when you reach late 30's and 40's but it's not impossible, I wouldn't go all in on aviation at that age if you don't have a sound backup plan if you don't get a job

[Maxtakeoff]

Hello there,
I was hoping for some guidance here. I am 37, based in Dubai for a full time Job. To be able to finance myself, I am considering the modular distant learning route. All support and guidance welcomed on the best academies to contact for an EASA fATPL.
Hi, am living in Dubai too and looking to do my ATPL. currently doing my PPL. Happy to chat through how am looking to do it. Cheers Alex

[lpfflyer]

Hi, am living in Dubai too and looking to do my ATPL. currently doing my PPL. Happy to chat through how am looking to do it. Cheers Alex

That makes three of us then....also in Dubai. Aiming to finish my PPL back in the UK this summer then not quite sure how to play it....whether to start ATPL theory straightaway, or focus on earning decent money here for a couple more years to fund a full time modular course. I'm 34 so don't want to hang around too much. The biggest practical issue here is I'd like to do some hour building to at least keep PPL skills ticking over. GA options seem very limited in the UAE though. Would be interested to hear about your approach.

[redsnail]

Mar100
Bom dia. It depends on what you're looking for WRT a flying job. I see you're realistic enough to know that an airline job is probably out of reach.
If you're thinking about flying on the weekends while keeping your day job, then a CPL is realistic. In all seriousness, depending on what you spend, you probably won't earn the money back you'll spend but you will get some money to fly. I would avoid any big "sausage factory" schools out there. They aren't interested in you.
I would look up any banner towing operations in Lisbon or Faro and ask them what they're looking for in a pilot. Good chance is that you'll need a tail wheel endorsement or something like that.
Instructing is an option as well.
First of all, get your health checked to a Class 1 standard. (Hearing, eye sight, diabetes, blood pressure etc).

[Stal83]

Someone please help me!
The CPL Theory is doing my head in. I passed 5 of the exams. I failed performance twice. Now I'm gun-shy and my exams are expiring and I just can't seem to get the confidence to go back.
I'm 36 and getting way too old to be starting a career.
Help me I'm losing my #$&ing mind.
Lance.

[youngretired]

Someone please help me!
The CPL Theory is doing my head in. I passed 5 of the exams. I failed performance twice. Now I'm gun-shy and my exams are expiring and I just can't seem to get the confidence to go back.
I'm 36 and getting way too old to be starting a career.
Help me I'm losing my #$&ing mind.
Lance.
Performance will come little bit harder at this stage (I assume the first 5 was air law, ops, var/ifr etc.)
Think this work like a stairway. Subjects seems are completely different but actually their levels are preparing you to take the next step.
We hear a lot of students fails once or twice if they take a difficult exam at this early stages.
Please write the exams you passed already and I'll suggest a plan for you to prepare yourself for the next session.

[Airlinepilot1687]

I am 32 with a PPL, Night qualification and around 177 hours total time. I would like to go commercial but feeling a bit stuck and unsure if its a dream or reality at 32. I need to complete the ATPL theory still so this would be the next step, I just want to make sure the funds are in place for the CPL and IR etc. I have a supportive wife and children and they want me to go for it. It all seems overwhelming now and I am wondering if its too late to go for it. I cant really explain the feeling but it makes me feel down wondering if that dream job is slipping away.I have never set a goal on aircraft type or dream airline I just want to fly for a career and keep an open mind with any opportunities. I think I just need that shove to make the jump and go for it. Can anyone offer me some words of wisdom and advice?

[2unlimited]

I am 32 with a PPL, Night qualification and around 177 hours total time. I would like to go commercial but feeling a bit stuck and unsure if its a dream or reality at 32. I need to complete the ATPL theory still so this would be the next step, I just want to make sure the funds are in place for the CPL and IR etc. I have a supportive wife and children and they want me to go for it. It all seems overwhelming now and I am wondering if its too late to go for it. I cant really explain the feeling but it makes me feel down wondering if that dream job is slipping away.I have never set a goal on aircraft type or dream airline I just want to fly for a career and keep an open mind with any opportunities. I think I just need that shove to make the jump and go for it. Can anyone offer me some words of wisdom and advice?

At 32 its not to late, so that's the easy part.
Wife, Children, Money etc. that's the hard part always.

This is brutal and honest, in your circumstances you need to know what you are going into. Besides the money:
1. Do you have a backup plan if you don't get work straight away?
2. Can you survive while looking for work, do you have other "safe" income source that will cover you and your family?
3. Are you willing to re-locate to find work, and with this not just within the UK, but anywhere in Europe? You are not likely to find your first job on your doorstep.
(either commuting, being away for long stretches and being home few days, or move with entire family?)
4. Can you live / survive on a pilots salary? (£1700 - £2200 a month for 4 - 5 years?)
(does your wife have extra income, do you have any extra income or can you manage on this)

It does get better after a while, but at least 3 years before you will see improvements, and most likely 4 - 5 to be honest. Because your first job will probably not be a place you want to stay for long, if you have to commute or move somewhere you don't like, so when you have experience and swap jobs, you start again at the bottom with many companies.

Feel free to PM if you want more specific advice.
It does depend on your circumstances, and it's not impossible, and you are definitely not to old, just go into with your eyes wide open. I know guys much older than you, and they made it. However if I was you I would get on to it now rather sooner than later.

[SARF]

Cheers youngretired
Can anyone help with quick mental maths techniques for the likes of the tests? i.e. A man exchanges 368 pounds for dollars at an exchange rate of 1 pound=1:72 dollars. How many dollars does he get in return? (answer to the nearest dollar)

If you travel 1248 miles, how much fuel will you need if you burn 4500 kgs per hour and are travelling at 72O mph?; A 737 flies 930 miles in 75 minutes. How many miles does it fly in 4 hours 45 minutes assuming as constant speed?
If an aircraft departed an airfield and headed directly south for 16 miles and then turned onto a heading of 27O degrees for 12 minutes at an average speed of 80 miles per hour, how many miles is it (in a straight line) from its original destination?
How many nautical miles can an aircraft travel if it is carrying 288O kgs of fuel and burns 240 kgs an hour averaging a speed of 375 knots?

This sort of thing. It's up there but a bit cloudy after not using it for so long, so any quick help or poke in the right direction, as the topic has no doubt been covered on here before, would be greatly appreciated. Don't mean to hijack the post. If I need to ask elsewhere or start a new thread, please let me know.


Ifyou can get 1.72 bucks to the pound. F..k flying. Get a job at Goldman’s ! 😉

[pjharb]

I am 32 with a PPL, Night qualification and around 177 hours total time. I would like to go commercial but feeling a bit stuck and unsure if its a dream or reality at 32. I need to complete the ATPL theory still so this would be the next step, I just want to make sure the funds are in place for the CPL and IR etc. I have a supportive wife and children and they want me to go for it. It all seems overwhelming now and I am wondering if its too late to go for it. I cant really explain the feeling but it makes me feel down wondering if that dream job is slipping away.I have never set a goal on aircraft type or dream airline I just want to fly for a career and keep an open mind with any opportunities. I think I just need that shove to make the jump and go for it. Can anyone offer me some words of wisdom and advice?

Do it do it do it! I can imagine how excited your wife and kids are. That's all the support you need. 32 is young. I'm about to turn 26, get my Class 1 and then start my PPL. The aim is to get into an airliner cockpit like you. First of all the best advice I can give you is if you don't yet have your Class 1, get it immediately. It'll be your biggest hurdle if you already have (or will gradually get) the funds you need.

Theory is not easy but it's not rocket science at the same time. Hundreds of thousands of people have done it, and they're not all smarter or more hardworking than you are surely? If you put your head down and read/study, you'll be fine.

If I were you I wouldn't worry about age, difficulty, support, etc. I would just make sure that I'm ready for the sacrifices that come with a career like this, i.e. the lack of a high salary (at least to start with), potentially moving around my family, etc. If you and your family have considered this and are happy with it, GO FOR IT!

[Donegal]

Here you go... I'm 52 and trying to get my PPL.
Am I too old to think about making a career out of flying? My wife isn't too happy about the idea..

[dobbiej]

Just a message for those who are not sure of realistic upper age limits: Last week at the age of 49 and 3/4 I was offered sponsorship for the Generation easyJet scheme at CAE. By the time I start I'll be 50. All I can say was that I never gave up trying and it shows that easyJet will be an outstanding company to work for.

[2unlimited]

Here you go... I'm 52 and trying to get my PPL.
Am I too old to think about making a career out of flying? My wife isn't too happy about the idea..

Depends what you want to do, airlines I doubt very much. Even if you would be able to get a job, including training and time before you would get a ok salary / pay from the time you find a job would at least take up to 6 - 8 years, and you will be close to retirement by that time.

I do know few guys your age gone and worked as FI, financially will probably not be that rewarding, but it is something you could do part time if you have another job, if you just wish to fly. If you have realistic goals than you will need to review if you believe it's worth it.

[2unlimited]

Just a message for those who are not sure of realistic upper age limits: Last week at the age of 49 and 3/4 I was offered sponsorship for the Generation easyJet scheme at CAE. By the time I start I'll be 50. All I can say was that I never gave up trying and it shows that easyJet will be an outstanding company to work for.

Sure, however the question is if it is a smart move to invest so much money, with so few years to get any return for it. It will be 5 - 6 years if not more, to get good earnings. That leaves you less than 8 - 9 years to make back your investment before it's game over. I would say unless you don't really need the £125.000 , and you have loads of excess cash, it would be madness to start so late in your career.

[dobbiej]

Sure, however the question is if it is a smart move to invest so much money, with so few years to get any return for it. It will be 5 - 6 years if not more, to get good earnings. That leaves you less than 8 - 9 years to make back your investment before it's game over. I would say unless you don't really need the £125.000 , and you have loads of excess cash, it would be madness to start so late in your career.
I get what you say but my point is nothing about money, it's about being the oldest cadet in Europe and as such I'm very proud👍

[Donegal]

Just a message for those who are not sure of realistic upper age limits: Last week at the age of 49 and 3/4 I was offered sponsorship for the Generation easyJet scheme at CAE. By the time I start I'll be 50. All I can say was that I never gave up trying and it shows that easyJet will be an outstanding company to work for.
That's fantastic news,a massive congratulations to you and your determination. That news gives me a little confidence to start again. I've over a 100 hours flown mind you that was years and years ago... but tomorrow I'm starting all over again and getting my first flying lesson in almost two decades and going to start my PPL again.
I'll see how that goes, and if all goes well i might just go for me APTL..
I'm delighted for you dude, congratulations once again.

[Donegal]

Depends what you want to do, airlines I doubt very much. Even if you would be able to get a job, including training and time before you would get a ok salary / pay from the time you find a job would at least take up to 6 - 8 years, and you will be close to retirement by that time.

I do know few guys your age gone and worked as FI, financially will probably not be that rewarding, but it is something you could do part time if you have another job, if you just wish to fly. If you have realistic goals than you will need to review if you believe it's worth it.
Yea I hear ya and thanks for your advice.. and it's all probably true. I know what you're saying is probably realistic but I'm going to start my PPL (again) tomorrow and see how that goes.
Thanks again for your advice 👍.

[PPRuNeUser0207]

Sure, however the question is if it is a smart move to invest so much money, with so few years to get any return for it. It will be 5 - 6 years if not more, to get good earnings. That leaves you less than 8 - 9 years to make back your investment before it's game over. I would say unless you don't really need the £125.000 , and you have loads of excess cash, it would be madness to start so late in your career.

Will you ever be able to live with the regret of not chasing the dream. We don't get out alive, and you can't take the cash with you.

[Dan910]

[QUOTE=dobbiej;10529714]Just a message for those who are not sure of realistic upper age limits: Last week at the age of 49 and 3/4 I was offered sponsorship for the Generation easyJet scheme at CAE. By the time I start I'll be 50. All I can say was that I never gave up trying and it shows that easyJet will be an outstanding company to work for.[/QUOTE

that is brilliant congratulations, Do you mind telling us what you did previously career wise an what you have done that helped you to be successful in being offered the place. Have you applied in the past?

[2unlimited]

Will you ever be able to live with the regret of not chasing the dream. We don't get out alive, and you can't take the cash with you.

Depends on your circumstances, if you you have family or not, if you are going to put yourself into massive debs or not.

Everyone has special circumstances. Personally if I was close to 50 starting it, I would say don't do it unless you don't mind seeing anything of your £125.000. Risks far outweigh the rewards at this stage. Getting a job, medical etc.
However if 125.000 is something that will not effect your life, than why not, but if it does, think very hard before you start.

[Dan910]

If you pass the selection, they are not allowed to discriminate because of your age, so that's fair enough. However it's also about that you have the ability, and probably better ability to pay the £125.000 required to do the course, as the two criteria goes hand in hand. But is it a wise move? All depends on your personal circumstances. I would say it's nuts if you have family to take care of and this is your savings or it will put anything you have at risk. It took me 10 years before I could make a living wage with a large airline, and I started when I was 38.


you say you started at 38, what did you do previously if you don’t mind me asking. What was your reason for starting at 38? Thanks

[PiperTyro]

Just a message for those who are not sure of realistic upper age limits: Last week at the age of 49 and 3/4 I was offered sponsorship for the Generation easyJet scheme at CAE. By the time I start I'll be 50. All I can say was that I never gave up trying and it shows that easyJet will be an outstanding company to work for.


Dobbiej - congratulations and well done (from a 42 yo with 230 TT / PPL thinking why haven't I done this). Please update us on your progress from time to time and best of luck.

[dobbiej]

Dobbiej - congratulations and well done (from a 42 yo with 230 TT / PPL thinking why haven't I done this). Please update us on your progress from time to time and best of luck.

Will do😀 Firstly I've got to wait for a course start date; going to be a few months waiting for various reasons and even though it's CAE Oxford, ground school could be Madrid, which I'd love👍

[DB777]

I get what you say but my point is nothing about money, it's about being the oldest cadet in Europe and as such I'm very proud👍

Proud you should be.
Well done

[TangoXray]

OK here goes...

Pushing 58 next month and staring at the imminent rocking chair has induced last-chance panic... UK PPL (converting to EASA), FAA CPL/ME/IR 500 hours or so logged, non commercial and very little recent experience apart from a UK PPL(G) completed last year .. failed CAA class 1 medical over 20 years ago which ended my aspirations for the airlines but situation now means I have a chance of passing it now, I have an understanding wife who will support me and some cash in the bank, probably enough for the EASA CPL/ME/IR, currently live in the Caribbean with easy access to Florida. I had a recent conversation with a UK flight school owner who convinced me if I had an FI rating he would hire me.. so maybe, just maybe this could be my last chance to get a flying job; so just maybe I should dump the well payed corporate chains for an FI, never to fly the big stuff, but at least to end my working life in an aircraft..

Honestly, am I too old?

[RHSandLovingIt]

Pushing 58 next month and staring at the imminent rocking chair has induced last-chance panic
...
so just maybe I should dump the well payed corporate chains for an FI, never to fly the big stuff, but at least to end my working life in an aircraft..
Honestly, am I too old?
I guess the question is not so much "are you too old?"... but more "what do you want to get out of it?". I don't see age as being a real issue if you are just going to go the FI route. Especially, if you can have a "serious" talk with that flight school owner about getting employment once qualified... perhaps offer to do all the (re)training required to get your FI rating throught their school?

Anyway, as I see it, your main issue is really "ROI"... As you yourself have already indicated, flying "The Big Stuff"™ isn't really going to be an option. So, your chances of recouping the costs involved of getting your quals is going to be fairly minimal. While you might have the cash to be able to do this now, where is that going to leave you for your inevitable retirement if you don't make it back through your wages/salary as an FI (assuming you can get employment)?

If the desire is simply to fly and your corporate chains are "well paid" enough... have you considered simply sticking with that and using the extra cash to fund a lifestyle where you get to fly "what you want, when you want" by adding an MEIR to your existing licence? I'm not overly familiar with the UK/EU scene, but I assume that as a private pilot you can get an IR and a ME rating on a PPL? Perhaps even a share in a warbird syndicate or something?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that it should be a hard no... but that you need to consider the ramifications of sinking all your cash reserves into this endeavour, as, unfortunately, you don't have the luxury of another 20-30 years to "rebuild" if it doesn't pan out.

[Benniwithanju33]

Brachetta;

Wish you good luck. You can and you will attain your goal. Stay motivated. Try to visualize yourself as if you are a Captain in you favorite airline. You will see a miracle.

[FATPLat48]

Hi everyone,

I'm looking for some insights and advice.

I am considering taking on the Integrated training program (FATPL with one of the Irish flight training academys). I will be 48 when I complete the program.

I would very much appreciate any insights or advice you would offer as to a future career as a commerical pilot within the aviation industry.

All advice is welcome.

Thank you.

[l8starter]

Hello, I’ve just tried to reply to your PM, but your in box is full !

Cheers,

L8

[redsnail]

Hi FATPLat48,
Can you afford to lose €150,000 and still be in good shape for retirement? What I mean is that the market in 2 years could be in a real slow down and unless you're on a tagged scheme (that is, already inline to start immediately after completion) you could struggle to find a decent paying job. As a new CPL holder, at best you'll earn €30K give or take or at worse, nothing. If you don't find a job soonish, you'll need to pay for an instrument rating renewal and they aren't cheap. First of all, get a health check done. Find what the class 1 requirements are and trot along to your docs and get the various checks done, biggies are blood pressure, vision, hearing, diabetes and balance.

For sure, you could be on a tagged scheme, go straight to a jet job, make command in 3-5 years and you're laughing. That is the best outcome possible.
If this doesn't happen, are you so financially prepared to accept lower paying jobs and still be in good shape for retirement? I'm sure you're thinking, easy, 17 years to recoup the costs. In theory, yep, you're right. Plan for at least 1 redundancy and move in that time frame. Yes, that does sound like worst case scenarios but you'll thank me.

Many of us who are in our mid 50s and older are looking at part time to regain the work/life balance and to ease into retirement.

Good luck. If you really want to do it, then you will, just listen to those who are already doing what you want to do and who aren't trying to sell you anything. ;)

[parkfell]

The expression “old dog and new tricks” springs to mind.
Age has a definite impact on the learning curve. Depending just what your present employment is, and how academic you were in your youth are critical factors.

Go down the modular route. Get your class one medical, obtain your PPL, and then decide if you are really are suitable to proceed further.
The most likely occupation for someone of your age is as a flying instructor.

If you have money to burn, and the cost of the course is insignificant then go for it.
If this is not the case, DON’T.......

[FATPLat48]

Hello, I’ve just tried to reply to your PM, but your in box is full !

Cheers,

L8


Thanks L8starter,

Can you post to this thread?

Please and thanks.

[paco]

What parkfell said......

[FATPLat48]

Thank you parkfell, appreciate your frankess and honesty.

[FATPLat48]

Thank you redsnail.

I appreciate your frankness and insights, some food for thought indeed.

Thank you.

[FATPLat48]

Thank you TheEdge

[l8starter]

FATPLat48, you sent me a PM asking if I would be prepared to have a chat with you, and to which I agreed. I PM’d you back with a personal contact detail, which I am not going to post publicly.

You have received some good advice. I remember what it was like when I was making a similar decision all those years ago; not knowing anyone in aviation; trying to source and receive sound information, or opinions from those “in the know”; worrying about the finances (it was a little different then, I went through the “self-improver route”, worked during the week (to support the family), Instructed part-time at the weekends, built the hours, and self-studied at home for the CPL (to get a BCPL), and then the ATPL; it took eight years from start to finish, and no guarantee of a job at the end of it. It felt very lonely at times, and my friends, who only used to think I was mad, became firmly convinced that I was ! Having spent over twenty years in commercial aviation, I am now inclined to agree with them . . . .

For all the advice you will receive, only you can make, and then live with, a decision. Sometimes, it helps just hearing yourself talking through things, to get stuff straight in your mind, and help you move forward, which is why I offered to have a chat; not so much to offer you advice, or tell you what to do, because nobody is going to do that. Talk with as many people as possible, it does help, even if it’s not what you (in your heart of hearts) want to hear . .

L8

[VikingSteve]

Hi Everyone, I'd like to ask your advice on my situation if i may. I've read a lot of posts from different people, from different walks of life, at different points in their career and the advice has been food for thought. I would like to tailor it to me personally though if I can!

I am 40 years old and I completed my PPL over the space of 4 weeks last summer. A lot later than planned!
I was due to attend RAF Cranwell back in 1997 before life threw a few curve balls. I was shortlisted for a sixth form scholarship before this, having passed aptitude tests, medical etc and my pathway to fast jet was set. Alas it was not to be and I made a career in civvy street instead.
I missed the cutoff to fly in the raf but at 26 I applied for aircrew, looking at loadmaster. I passed all tests but was put on a two year waiting list for aircrew so joined as an engineer intending to transfer later (recruiters will tell you anything to get you to sign kids!) Transferring was not a realistic option and I left the forces without fulfilling my dream of flying.

Now that life is stable, and a PPi claim landed £7k in my lap, I've finally earned my wings on my own and feel like that 17yr old kid again. I would love to now turn to Cargo or Passenger flights but as I'm NOT 17 i'm unsure how feasible it will be.
The theory, the test, medicals etc shouldnt pose a problem. I'm not rich but have about £1k of spare cash a month if I behave myself so could get at least 10hrs a week in the air. This should get me to 200hrs in around 18months. I'm self employed with an online business which gives me a lot of flexibility to get to an airfield whenever its clear!

So, I'm a 42yr old with CPL, looking at the future. I've got about 18years flying ahead of me (is that right?) I could hopefully get a job as an FI and earn while racking up my hours, another 12-18months and i'd hopefully have close to the 1500 needed for ATPL (from work and private hours).
I'm now probably 44, and looking for a FO role with an airline........Realistically - with competition from the young twentysomethings or experienced thirtysomethings - will I have a chance of landing a role with an airline?
I know it's illegal to discriminate on age, but if you have two pilots with the same skills and one can provide an extra decade or two of service then will the older chap have much of a chance?

I don't care about the politics of the job, I just want to earn a good wage, be in the air, see a bit of the world, and get a break from the wife and kids for half the month :)
I know there is no guarantee of ever getting to the left chair of an airline (or even the right!) but will being in my early 40's make it harder than at any other time of my life?

Thanks in advance guys

[RHSandLovingIt]

I know it's illegal to discriminate on age, but if you have two pilots with the same skills and one can provide an extra decade or two of service then will the older chap have much of a chance?
The cynic in me suggests that the older pilot is actually more attractive because he'll have less time to move up the payscale and will thus cost less... and can be replaced with another low earner sooner! :suspect:

Realistically, this is the point where your attitude and personality become the determining factor, as theoretically, anyone with the appropriate licences/medicals has the "same skills". I was 43 when I got hired into the RHS of a regional turboprop... I know a number of 20-30somethings who didn't make it.



I know there is no guarantee of ever getting to the left chair of an airline (or even the right!) but will being in my early 40's make it harder than at any other time of my life?

The answer is yes... but that's probably more to do with your physical and mental wellbeing, than any sort of age discrimination you might face... It is just a fact of life that the body and brain are on a downward spiral from your early 20s. It makes learning harder, it makes dealing with the long hours/overnights/timezones/physiological demands harder... hell, some days it just makes getting out of bed to make a cup of tea harder! :{

It's not impossible, I'm living proof... but as I always told people "I'm too dumb and too stubborn to give up"... I've had to sacrifice an awful lot to get where I am, but my username reflects how I feel about life at this point in time. Even when I have to get up at "o'Dark thirty" for my "Stupid dream job" :}

[AeroSearcher]

Never too old to do something you're passionate about. Keep up the good work!

[Buenas]

What now? I Guess this whole pandemic has thrown in some dirt for the oldies to start ? Myself (36) postponed the plan to start integrated ( 2 offers MPL) and will continue modular spread over 3-4 years .... Any of you doing the same?

[harveyst]

Thinking about it for sure.

[flyingkeyboard]

What now? I Guess this whole pandemic has thrown in some dirt for the oldies to start ? Myself (36) postponed the plan to start integrated ( 2 offers MPL) and will continue modular spread over 3-4 years .... Any of you doing the same?

Not quite as old as you, but modular definitely the way to go. Proceed at a pace that suits you and the current situation.

[Krautwald]

I went modular in my 30s and would strongly advise the same today, now even for young people. Unfortunately, I believe this short magical time where age was almost a non-issue, is over. 30s are going to be old-ish again, and new pilots over 40 yo are going to have a hard time, and I predict it will continue to be so even if the market starts picking up. Doesn't equal "don't do it", but you better be willing to eat a total loss of your investment and, should the rare chance occur, be very flexible on all parameters (pay, conditions, location). For those willing to take such risk, I would still say do it, maybe get some quality PPL flying under your belt for a couple of years and observe the industry.

[GoldenGooseGuy]

The problem with starting late in life in this industry is low starting pay, steep training learning curves, and low quality of life for about 10 years while building up your logbook. I did the reverse and changed careers from aviation to finance after realizing I'd much rather do something where it didn't require me to sell out of everything else in life.

I flew with career changers who had a pile of money saved up, then spend it all on flight training, then starting living off of credit cards while their spouse and young children waited for them to come home from being days away at a time. While a corporate job requires commitment just like anything else, the level of commitment for flying requires a certain amount of passion for the industry to be able to sacrifice everything else.

When people ask me if they should fly, I always recommend that you obtain your Private Pilot License, as it's relatively cheap in the grand scheme of things. Just fly for fun. Some of the most memorable flying I ever did was in a Citabria, not a EMB-145.

I've only ever seen one exception to starting a flight career late in life, and it was a family friend who previously flew F-4's in the Navy, then started his own successful real estate business to the point where he could afford to take time off to fly. At the age of 50, he was able to squeeze through airline training and flew for about a year until they tried to get him to drive to some reserve assignment several hours away. He quit on the spot and it didn't matter, because he just went back to his business full-time. If you've sold a business and are wealthy and bored, sure, this might be an interesting diversion. But for those still trying to save up for retirement? Get your recreational licenses and have fun with those. Flying professionally is rigid and systematic in comparison anyway.

[kpd]

Fascinating to hear from someone who has done the reverse clearly successfully and clearly everyone will make their own decisions in life but important words from both Krautwald and GoldenGooseGuy.

[franks]

Hi, I’d like some advice on the below as a modular route. By way of background I’m 36, with a well paid job in public relations. Own my flat in South East London. Gay, so no kids and have had a lot of fun holidays across the world. My living costs are such that each month I could bank £2K in savings. I tend not to; most of it goes on fripperies but the point is it could be spent on other things.


I enjoy my career but the idea of doing that alone full time for another 30 years fills me, if not with dread, then a certain amount of sadness. Keen to populate my life with some additional people, experiences and skills. Frankly I need something hard and a bit scary right now. I considered sailing but it’s too cold around England to be enjoyable year round.

This leads me back to flight. Took a few lessons in my teenage years, loved it but turned 18 just before 09/11. I also remember reading on the early pilot forums how exploitative entry level flying jobs in the US were before the introduction of the 1500 rule. and the emerging European low costs didn’t represent a type of flying that appealed. Always thought I’d want to either fly ultra locally or medium to long haul. All told aviation seemed like a route to heart break. Until C-19 that seemed like a big mistake on my part. But equally I’ve really enjoyed my life till now and also believe I’d have been ill suited to 35 years + in an airline job.

What I’m considering is throwing myself over the next few years into becoming a very competent pilot. Mostly for the sheer satisfaction of it and I’ve no firm goal in mind other than reaching the point where I could instruct to ME/IR level part time, and hopefully get back some of the money I’d spend on this. Equally, maybe if/when the industry picks up there might be a turboprop gig, or I dunno, something in bush flying if this turns into a total mid life crisis. I’ve lurked on here long enough to there’s no point making firm plans as to what the industry might want or need.

This is the timeline I’ve sketched out (doing this on weekends and during my holidays). Does the order seem logical or have I overlooked anything important?

Year 1
Take a class 1 medical. Assuming all goes to plan pursue PPL; night rating; hour building; IMC IR(R). Aim to finish with about 75 hrs. Review

Year 2
Take another class 1 medical. 100 hrs worth of PIC time in the UK and the US. Take some short courses in mountain flying; beach landings, tail wheel training and soft/short field landings. Start studying for ATPL theory tests. By this point have reached 192 hours. Review.

Year 3
Class 1 medical. Take the ATPL exams. Aim for first time passes at 90% or above to keep in contention for an airline job. If fall at this hurdle, accept my options will have narrowed further. Do some light hour building in the UK and pursue the FI (R) rating and have the night restriction removed. Get a part time instructor job. Aim to end the year with about 350 hours logged in total. Review.

Year 4
Class 1 medical. Acquire MEP and MEP/IR ratings. Keep instructing part time and do some ME hour building in the states. Aim to end the year with about 450 hrs logged in total

Year 5

Class 1 medical. Keep instructing part time and acquire the ME CRI rating. Aim to have logged about 630 hours in total.

Year 6
Class 1 medical. Acquire the CPL and do the MCC/JOC courses. Keep instructing. At this point I’d be 43 with a minimum of about 700 hours logged. Either I keep instructing part time or I’m in a position to start applying for FO positions, probably for a UK based turboprop operator. If the airline thing doesn’t pan out, probably keep at instructing, maybe even taking a FT role if the money were decent, or take an unpaid sabbatical and go flying for Wilderness Air or the like for a different experience. Or buy a non equity share in a multi engine piston and go on flying holidays in Europe.

I estimate I’ll spend about £78K at 2020 prices over 6 six years for ratings and hour building but would hopefully have earned some back in instructor fees. My only true red line is I won’t pay for a type rating or line training to keep me in contention for a commercial job.

Does the above seem sensible (accepting upfront that it is rather mad to spend any money on aviation right now). Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

[portsharbourflyer]

All seems quite sensible, however do note your from finishing the ATPL exams you will have 36 months to get the CPL done, as the CPL is only 25 hours of training best to get the CPL out the way earlier than you do in your plan. Plus with the CPL you will need 50 less hours to do the FI(R) than if doing it on a PPL.
Also with the Competency based IR you can upgrade the IR to a full IR. Don't get too wound up about trying to achieve 90 percent average in the ATPL exams, there are probably only about 2 Airlines that have such a requirement and for the sort of roles you are aiming for no one is going to ask or care that much.
Multi engine hour building, you will need 30 hours p1 multi to do the MEI upgrade once you get you FI restriction removed.

Just for reference PPL level instructional pay is around 20 to 30 pounds per hour flown. So with part time PPL level instructing don't expect to make much back.
Working for an integrated school SEP Instructor salaries are now around 35- 40k per yea (with bonus's over 40 is possible). Multi instructors are getting salaries around the 50 to 65k mark.
However it is expected there may well be a surge of instructors in the next year as fresh qualifiers look to do FI ratings and many former instructors laid off from the Airlines return to instructing. So SEP pay rates may decline again. There however does tend to always be a shortage of multi engine instructors.
Also note to be able to teach IR you will need to get 200 hours IFR; you can do the IRI add on to the FI rating and be initially restricted to teaching the IRR only and then use the IRR instructing to build the IFR time.

[rudestuff]

Hi, I’d like some advice on the below as a modular route. By way of background I’m 36, with a well paid job in public relations. Own my flat in South East London. Gay, so no kids and have had a lot of fun holidays across the world. My living costs are such that each month I could bank £2K in savings. I tend not to; most of it goes on fripperies but the point is it could be spent on other things.


I enjoy my career but the idea of doing that alone full time for another 30 years fills me, if not with dread, then a certain amount of sadness. Keen to populate my life with some additional people, experiences and skills. Frankly I need something hard and a bit scary right now. I considered sailing but it’s too cold around England to be enjoyable year round.

This leads me back to flight. Took a few lessons in my teenage years, loved it but turned 18 just before 09/11. I also remember reading on the early pilot forums how exploitative entry level flying jobs in the US were before the introduction of the 1500 rule. and the emerging European low costs didn’t represent a type of flying that appealed. Always thought I’d want to either fly ultra locally or medium to long haul. All told aviation seemed like a route to heart break. Until C-19 that seemed like a big mistake on my part. But equally I’ve really enjoyed my life till now and also believe I’d have been ill suited to 35 years + in an airline job.

What I’m considering is throwing myself over the next few years into becoming a very competent pilot. Mostly for the sheer satisfaction of it and I’ve no firm goal in mind other than reaching the point where I could instruct to ME/IR level part time, and hopefully get back some of the money I’d spend on this. Equally, maybe if/when the industry picks up there might be a turboprop gig, or I dunno, something in bush flying if this turns into a total mid life crisis. I’ve lurked on here long enough to there’s no point making firm plans as to what the industry might want or need.

This is the timeline I’ve sketched out (doing this on weekends and during my holidays). Does the order seem logical or have I overlooked anything important?

Year 1
Take a class 1 medical. Assuming all goes to plan pursue PPL; night rating; hour building; IMC IR(R). Aim to finish with about 75 hrs. Review

Year 2
Take another class 1 medical. 100 hrs worth of PIC time in the UK and the US. Take some short courses in mountain flying; beach landings, tail wheel training and soft/short field landings. Start studying for ATPL theory tests. By this point have reached 192 hours. Review.

Year 3
Class 1 medical. Take the ATPL exams. Aim for first time passes at 90% or above to keep in contention for an airline job. If fall at this hurdle, accept my options will have narrowed further. Do some light hour building in the UK and pursue the FI (R) rating and have the night restriction removed. Get a part time instructor job. Aim to end the year with about 350 hours logged in total. Review.

Year 4
Class 1 medical. Acquire MEP and MEP/IR ratings. Keep instructing part time and do some ME hour building in the states. Aim to end the year with about 450 hrs logged in total

Year 5

Class 1 medical. Keep instructing part time and acquire the ME CRI rating. Aim to have logged about 630 hours in total.

Year 6
Class 1 medical. Acquire the CPL and do the MCC/JOC courses. Keep instructing. At this point I’d be 43 with a minimum of about 700 hours logged. Either I keep instructing part time or I’m in a position to start applying for FO positions, probably for a UK based turboprop operator. If the airline thing doesn’t pan out, probably keep at instructing, maybe even taking a FT role if the money were decent, or take an unpaid sabbatical and go flying for Wilderness Air or the like for a different experience. Or buy a non equity share in a multi engine piston and go on flying holidays in Europe.

I estimate I’ll spend about £78K at 2020 prices over 6 six years for ratings and hour building but would hopefully have earned some back in instructor fees. My only true red line is I won’t pay for a type rating or line training to keep me in contention for a commercial job.

Does the above seem sensible (accepting upfront that it is rather mad to spend any money on aviation right now). Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

Sorry mate, I'll have to disagree with the guy above (who doesn't seem to understand that a CBIR is a full IR).
Sure, it'll work. But it's an awful plan. You need 150 hours pic to become an FI without a CPL. A CPL only requires 100. It will be a lot cheaper to get your IR then CPL then FI - than it would be to get the FI on its own. You'd be employabe as an FO within 2 years and as an FI shortly thereafter. And for under £50k.

[portsharbourflyer]

"Also with the Competency based IR you can upgrade the IR to a full IR", was meant to write upgrade the IRR to full IR; take time to read the context of the statement you would have realised that it was a omission of a single letter.

[rudestuff]

Fair enough 👍

[portsharbourflyer]

Actually Rudestuff, thanks for highlighting the error (indirectly). It was my error to start with, didn't mean to come across as abrupt.

[rudestuff]

No worries, sorry for being a condescending ****!

[portsharbourflyer]

No problem Rudestuff.

[parkfell]

One of the consequences of C-19, and the tsunami impact on aviation, for what will be a considerable period of time, the “AM I TOO OLD” criteria will undoubtedly reduce in age.
The curve will move significantly ‘to the left’ to adjust for that, at present, undefined recovery period.

Those at the margins of what was a sensible (perhaps?) cut off age band, have now moved into the ‘probably best forgotten, unless you have money to burn band’. They should consider doing the PPL and fly for pleasure on nice days if they have a real interest in flying.

The paradox is that C-19 might have done a few hopefuls a huge favour, and not incurred a vast cost with hardly any chance of a return on the investment by securing a job. Money better saved & spend elsewhere as a result.

For those of a certain age deep into the process, you have my sympathy. Difficult choices to make.

[pug]

Can you elaborate as to why that might be? From what I’ve seen the older age bracket (career changers etc) tend to be looked on favourably. You may not have meant it but your post reads that the older candidates are the secondary consideration when experience tells me quite the opposite.

[parkfell]

There is an age cut off for most occupations. “Old dog and new tricks”. Aviation is no exception.
For those aspiring to start from scratch after a certain age will find it increasingly difficult.

And your experience contradicts this?

[pug]

Of course if we’re talking someone late 40’s/early 50’s then that might be the case, though I’ve seen people that age come through and happily (until recently) flying ‘shiny jets’. I tend to believe people are taken on merit and not on age these days, and not sure whether there has been a detailed study into Type Rating success when age is the benchmark. Operators tend to take a range of people from a range of backgrounds and age brackets. They have done for quite some time. For many people they can only afford to make the jump in their 30’s!

What I do think will matter more is getting first time passes in everything, high average scores in ATPL’s and doing something worthwhile to keep current whilst the market is none existent,

[parkfell]

Back in the early 1990s, BA Flight Engineers were no longer necessary with fleet upgrades etc.

A number ended up at BAe Prestwick to train for the CPL/IR under CAP509. Various ground school credits due to their FEng qualifications.
Age band 28-44.

The youngest had no problems, whilst the oldest wisely gave up the unequal struggle at the end of the SE phase.

It was certainty the case that on the whole they did learn slower and found it harder than the usual BA cadet in their early twenties. That I doubt would come as any surprise: “old dog and new tricks”

I see no difficulty those in their 30’s starting to train. Modular route is probably best, with the PPL course a good point to assess whether continuing on the route is worthwhile. An experience instructor is best placed to access your potential.
Those with a low golf handicap aged 40 - 45 will more than likely be successful as well. Demonstrating good hand to eye coordination and a sound temperament when playing those difficult shots out the rough or bunker.

Once you pass aged 50, on balance, the odds are not in your favour. Stick with PPL flying and enjoy it. Choose your days carefully.

[MADMAX190]

pug

I agree, with your first statement, until recently, guys in their 40s, 50s, and I even knew 1 guy in his 60s who got into a regional jet! So it WAS happening. C-19 has probably changed all that for the next 5 years at least, although it is possible that some airlines may see opportunity in less experienced guys in their 40s/50s, as they may be more likely (than experienced pilots) to accept poor working conditions in order to get their shot. However in general I think (and hope) that they will choose experience over newbies when the time for hiring comes around.

I am curious about your last statement, what would you say are worthwhile ways to keep current whilst waiting for the hiring cycle to begin again?

[parkfell]

Those unfortunate pilots need look no further than Virtual Aviation, Cambridge who are offering simulator time on A320 & B737 at attractive rates. Going as a pair of pilots is probably ideal.....?

[Buenas]

How are the oldies doing nowadays?

It seems to me that at 38 years old, I "now" really have to throw the towel in the ring. On one side I'm super-happy the corona crisis has hit now and not later as I was scheduled to start an MPL programme in June ( can not imagine the mess I would have been in right now).

My heart really hurts as I have to say goodbye to something I have been achieving for my whole life, but just being able to do it now financially( did not want a 100k loan).

Any other thoughts or experiences here? are people still pursuing their dreams hoping for a quick market recovery?

Curious to hear from you guys and gals..

[jackrabbitslim7]

31, 32 in october for me, finished my PPL summer 2019, about to finish ATPL theory, I'm keep going, knowing the future is probably not so good, I won't go in debt, got enough cash to finish training going modular. You can still go for you PPL, flying is fun, nothing to rush for now. I don't know if the market will recover, I don't expect much anyway, I'm just looking for any kind of flying, instruction, GA, whatever is possible in the future. I would't start an integrated training today. Going modular you can probably get away with 50K.

[parkfell]

Obtain your Class One medical.
After the PPL, slowly start the EASA exams learning.
The clock starts ticking after the first exam sitting.
18 months to complete.

Then 3 years to complete the flying for licence issue.
By 2024 should with any luck be back to near normal.

[rudestuff]

Buenas

So you didn't really want to be a pilot then?

[Buenas]

@rudestuff -Haha give me a break I might even need to go in therapy to get over this disappointment! 2020 was the year that I was going to realize my life goal !! But I get your point..

@ jackrabbit - Thanks, age-wise you are also still in the green zone so would make sense to go ahead modular.

My overall concern is age obviously, I could do it all modular and be ready in three years. For airlines to consider oldies i.e. 38+, the market should at least be recovered to pre-corona levels to make a 20-30% chance for a right seat.

[F1l1p3]

Buenas,

I´m 33 and thinking of going modular, taking my PPL and see how I get on and how the situation in the industry develops. I have noticed you are in Barcelona too, have you looked at any of the flight schools around here and would you be up to exchange notes if so?

[rudestuff]

If you want it to happen you will make it happen - age is just a number! You could start at 45 and still have a 20 year career. You can't guarantee that you will get a job, you can only guarantee that you won't - by not getting the licence in the first place.

[simmple]

Always found flying with the guys who had a life before aviation much more enjoyable, they bought life experience and didn’t have, for want of a better word, the rigidity of the books.
i think a lot of the problem for the oldies who now want to join is the training ain’t the same and they have to pay!
when I joined an airline I was late 30s, the training was just that, training, can’t remember details but sake of argument. 3 week groundschool and 15 sims.plus the company paid.
towards the end of career changing jobs it was study on your own and 9 sims. That with being old made the conversion not enjoyable and for those that do the recruiting it ain’t good for their bonus when someone fails.
with that, Covid and the fast dwindling terms, wages etc if I was doing it now at the age I was I wouldn’t.

[Future Rodney King]

rudestuff

Yeah ok then, let’s just plow on blindly, because I want it to happen, it will happen.... The reality is, is that it ain’t gonna happen. He’s making a sensible decision IMO. The odds are massively stacked against type rated pilots, never mind newbies.

Save your cash and your sanity.

[rudestuff]

Read the title of the thread mate. The question isn't should I become a pilot right now? - it's should I become a pilot at my age?
I agree, it's not the best time right now. But as long as people exist and the airplanes exist then airlines will eventually be short of pilots. The only way to catch the wave when it comes it's to be ready and waiting which is why anyone in their right mind who's looking into flight training at the moment will aim for a CPL/SEIR and then sit on their hands, having spent the bare minimum to get 4 weeks from the finish line.
IMO giving up on a dream leads to a lifetime of regret.

[Future Rodney King]

I can’t see this ageing well to be honest. As we all know, airlines have never been short of pilots. Add the thousands of redundant/soon to be redundant type rated pilots to the constant stream of wannabes, I rest my case. We all know of the ones who have already been caught in the cross-fire, medium jet captains driving delivery vehicles and stacking shelves. Turbo prop pilots sat there with useless ratings, expats from the Far East/sand pit etc. Enjoy flying for fun, forget commercial aviation, save your money instead of pursuing a dead end outcome. We all know GA is the best fun, stick to light aircraft.

[parkfell]

The present tsunami has severely knocked potential junior birdmen off course for five years perhaps.

Rudestuff is quite right..’if you want it to happen you will make it happen.’

Those who reckon that they have past their “tipping point” age, then private flying beckons. Enjoy it.

For those who feel that their time will come, it will.

As I tell those students self funding/modular, the analogy is a bit like joining the Church, you need to believe in GOD.
You have probably wanted to from the age of say ten.
“Plane daft”. Nothing else as a way of life.

And for those who succeed it is “better than having to work for a living”.

Those who think of joining for “the status”( parents who force their kids into medicine) or “the money”, go instead and join a hedge fund as a worker. Cheaper for the Bank of Mum & Dad.

These, in my view, are the acidic tests to be achieved.
As has been pointed out “age is just a number”

[Buenas]

Thank you all for your personal opinion and experiences ... eventually, it comes down to the individual to make the decision... I will have another thought about it during the
holidays. I could continue modular as I already have my ppl and enough savings.

PPL doesn't satisfy me as I keep looking up even from 1500 ft! Who knows what the world will look like in 4-5 years - one thing is for sure people will continue to fly and pilots will be needed....

[rudestuff]

Look, I wouldn't in good conscience encourage someone into aviation on a whim. The last time there were this few pilot jobs it was 1902.
But if someone has a dream, then I'll fan the flames beside there's nothing more demoralising than giving up on a dream and living a life of regret.
It won't be easy or cheap, but ​​​​​​ IF you're good enough and IF you want it enough you will get a job. There are only 2 things that can stop that:
1: giving up
2: reaching 65
(If you read some of the previous posts you'll see just how prevalent no 1 is.)

Getting the licence is the easy bit. Getting the first job is the hard bit. There won't be much hiring any time soon which is why you should be prepared to mark time if necessary, or move at the drop off a hat: but at some point there will be jobs. The conveyor belt of age and illness never stops. 3 or 4% of pilots retire or lose their medicals every year.

When the hiring starts you need to stand out from the crowd: Just sending CVs won't do you any favours. You need to network. Meet people. Make friends. Pilots hand in CVs for their friends. They vouch for them etc. Join an airline in a non flying role of necessary, whatever gets you close to the decision makers. Think outside the box.

The best time to introduce yourself to a chief pilot? Just after you've saved one of his kids from drowning. No one needs to know you pushed the kid in....😉

[Nuke Dukem]

I'm retiring from the Air Force in Jan 2023 at age 44. If it looks like the aviation industry is on an upswing by then, I plan to start a commercial pilot training track at Blue Line Aviation. If not, I've got a BS in electrical engineering and a MS in project management to fall back on. So far, I've got the cash to pay for school without loans and a lifetime of retirement checks from Uncle Sugar. With about 9 months of training and 20-24 months of instructing I should be entering the job market in mid 2025 at age 47 with no debt. It feels like a solid plan but I'm always open to feedback!

[redsnail]

G'day Nuke Dukem,
It depends on where you see yourself WRT aviation. If you see yourself left seat with a major airline, I hate to say it, it probably won't work. If regionals are your thing, then it's feasible (caveat - check historical hiring). Bizjets might appeal more - it depends on home life stability and so on.
So I would think about where you see yourself in 10 years time, ie 57 and what your goals are. If you can do it all and still be debt free, great. I would research the hiring practices of where you see yourself. eg have they historically taken older low houred pilots etc. The US does have the 1500 hour rule too.
You still have a couple of years to assess the plan too. Oh - find out what the Class 1 medical requirements are and see if you meet them. You don't necessarily need to do the medical, just ask your local doc to assess you on X parameters. :)

Any way, you seem to have given it some sensible thought. Good luck.

[Nuke Dukem]

Thanks for the input, Redsnail. The training program I am doing includes 1500 hours so I will be entering the workforce at age 47 ready for the FAA ATP/CTP with about 6 months of reserve income in the bank to help smooth out the transition. Honestly, I think I would be completely fine just flying left seat at a regional or right seat at a major. My main motivation for flying is to have fun and travel, so the salary isn't so much an issue; especially since I will have additional income from my military pension. I can tell that corporate office life isn't for me (fluorescent lighting is bad for the soul). I want to learn a skill and then go out and do it!

My last two commanders retired and went straight to the airlines. I have spoken with both of them about hiring practices and the Class 1 physical. Neither of them thought I would have a problem finding work or getting medically qualified at that age. Heck, one of them gets disability from the Air Force and he breezed through his Class 1. If they are still in the industry by 2025 I will also have connections to the airlines through them.

[macho4050]

Lightheart

Well done.I fully agree..Ex military started a new era at 48....

[SignalSquare]

If you have to ask - yes!

[dns]

NO!

That's a terrible thing to say...

I worried that at 38 I was too old but when I asked on here it was pointed out that if I qualify in two years I could still have a 25 year career.

[Chris Wheeler]

Well, 32 is fine. Keep your current job and work towards a pilot career. I was hired by a major airline at 35, many others are older. Here in the US, I advise many to look into getting on with the Air Guard or reserves. Great military training, paid to train and build time.

[crbnftprnt]

I haven't read this complete thread, but I'll throw in my own experience. Finished my ratings just after age 30, retired 8 years ago as captain on the 747-400 with a top-tier carrier, age 65. Flight instructed for a year, flew piston twin charter for 2 years, corporate jets for 9 years, then 121. Had the 4-year degree.

[PinguGoesFlying]

Hello

Just looking through this forum. Am a career changer, wound down my old business late 2019 with the intent of training modular, but full time, left school at 18 & been self employed for 12 years, with enough in the bank to cover the training costs a few times over - no debts, but no degree either (UK).

I am 31 (32 in Feb) and passed my PPL back in March 2020, days before the world went into this tailspin.

Been working on the theory through lockdown and am sitting on 95% average no failures on 10/14 ATPL subjects (taking the last 4 in a month). Class 1 medical, no issues.

Bit unnerved by some comments that airlines prefer younger, realistically, what is the typical age for intake into airline cadet schemes??? Been looking at the Ryanair Gateway schemes with Bartolini & VA in Cambridge - seen some posts on here saying Ryanair - off the record - aren't interested in older.

I am aware of the dreadful jobs market, was dreadful when I was 18 (in 2008 financial crash) but it recovered.

My question, I am certain that the airlines will recover, but if that is slow & realistically my first chance at a job is late 30's (assuming CPL etc is all passed this year, then a few years treading water if there are no jobs). Do I stand a chance, or am I :mad: in the wind :sad:

[rudestuff]

Of course. You've got 30 years left. You either want it or you don't, stop looking for someone to talk you out of it.

"Several times over" you say... Just how much are we talking? Have you considered helicopters as well? A dual rating would give you more options.

[truckflyer]

My advice would be if Airlines is the dream, you should see if it realistic to have a job by the time you are 45. Expect 2 - 3 years from you finish training until you might get the chance of a job (this is in Euro land)

Starting training anytime in your 30's is not to late, even if you are 39, as long as you can see a realistic chance of a job at approx 45.
Any later I would not bother, the risk and time is to big. Cost vs earning is just not worth it, unless you have loads of spare cash and no family to worry about.

[NTJosh]

Lad's, interesting read....Im 49 and back in 2002 i commenced my PPL. After racking up a little over 30hrs and having completed my PPL theory exam i was made redundant from my work, then the only flying school in the town where i lived closed down. One thing led to another and i never got back into it. After a 19yr gap I've just returned to the left seat with what was a plan to complete my PPL, whilst at my aero club and discussing life with my instructor (Who has been flying since 1970 and instructing since 1978) and one of his former students who is now a CFI and flying 208's in charter i was asked if id considered continuing on and getting my commercial. I hadn't considered this as i thought that i was getting on and may struggle with finding work. They've both given me much encouragement and advised that if I'm happy working in GA (Which i am) then ill have no issues finding work.

So ive just booked myself in for the first of the seven CPL exams with a hope now of obtaining my commercial in early 2023..little over a year away. If i end up flying GA commercially for as long as i can maintain a Class 1 medical which is hopefully into my late 60's then ill be a happy man knowing ive spent my latter working life doing something that ive always wanted to do.

Im a firm believe in if you want something bad enough, and if you work hard at it then it will come. Hopefully in a few years time i'll be getting paid to fly and my only regret will be that i didn't do it when i was younger instead of regretting that i never did it at all!

[iggy]

Congrats on pursuing your dream!

This being said, make sure that:

- you don't close the door to whatever profession was feeding you until now. Keep yourself updated and ready to go back to it in a moment notice. As good as things may look in aviation you never know when you'll need it
- you don't get into anything dangerous just because you feel the pressure to gain experience in GA. Your area is Western Australia and I've got no idea how things are over there, but I can tell you that in the rest of the world GA MIGHT mean unsafe conditions and poor salaries (maybe that is one of the reasons why you'll have no issues finding job), and some employers MIGHT see in you the chance of cutting corners for a profit.

[NTJosh]

Great points mate which are well worth taking into consideration, Im fortunate enough to have spent the last 21yrs in mining (mineral processing), worked in supervision, training and superintendent level roles and it is always a job i can fall back into very easily with my experience. Ill be continuing to work in this industry working a two weeks on/two weeks off roster whilst i build up the hrs and gain my commercial. On top of that i also have my trade as a mechanical fitter which would also see me employed very easily at the drop of a hat.

Im not one to cut corners, or work for someone that does...ill be under no pressure financially to find my first job in aviation (Or stay in it) so i wont be taking short cuts or working for someone that does. If i have safety concerns with the way a companies operating and they aren't interested in sorting them out then ill be out the door!

[ikaros1990]

Hi there! I started modular atpl at 29 and now this year i am close to end my training at 32. Working full time and raise a baby plus pandemic was hard but i never considered to give up! now there is light to the end of the tunnel but we have the war in europe , an other problem. Do not wait for someone to tell you that your age is good or not .Just chase your dream and fly,study and work hard an the end you will be ok with your self! no matter the outcome!

[youngmd]

I have been a pediatrician for the past 22 years in the United States, but I plan to switch career to become a commercial airlines pilot in three years. I would like to wait until my son goes to college before my flight training.

I have no flight experience, but I will be a third-generation pilot in my family. My grandfather was in the first Chinese air force, and both of my uncles were fighter jet pilots (they subsequently flew commercial after retirement from the air force).

I plan to complete my training by 55, so I can still fly for 10 years in commercial airlines. I live 10 minutes away from an airport in Long Beach, California.

[C-141Starlifter]

I have been a pediatrician for the past 22 years in the United States, but I plan to switch career to become a commercial airlines pilot in three years. I would like to wait until my son goes to college before my flight training.

I have no flight experience, but I will be a third-generation pilot in my family. My grandfather was in the first Chinese air force, and both of my uncles were fighter jet pilots (they subsequently flew commercial after retirement from the air force).

I plan to complete my training by 55, so I can still fly for 10 years in commercial airlines. I live 10 minutes away from an airport in Long Beach, California.

Doc,
you may want to punt this question over to more of a US audience. Suggest www.airlinepilotforums.com

good luck,

[SoftwareDev]

I think this thread is exactly what I've been Googling!
26, Software Engineer, degree in Computer Science. It's a good career. It pays well and I kept my job over the pandemic, but it's just not for me. I'm about to reach out to a local school to start working towards my PPL. Being in work, cost isn't too much of an issue. My two main concerns were around how my age would come into play if I was to make a move towards becoming a commercial pilot and what exactly the best path is for me to take. I'm aware I would be taking a huge pay cut and it would cost a lot to get there. Seems like there is a lot of information out there, almost to the point where ?I have no idea where to look. I almost feel ridiculous even thinking about it.

I guess from the title of this sticky, I'm not too old then?

[Charizard90]

I think this thread is exactly what I've been Googling!
26, Software Engineer, degree in Computer Science. It's a good career. It pays well and I kept my job over the pandemic, but it's just not for me. I'm about to reach out to a local school to start working towards my PPL. Being in work, cost isn't too much of an issue. My two main concerns were around how my age would come into play if I was to make a move towards becoming a commercial pilot and what exactly the best path is for me to take. I'm aware I would be taking a huge pay cut and it would cost a lot to get there. Seems like there is a lot of information out there, almost to the point where ?I have no idea where to look. I almost feel ridiculous even thinking about it.

I guess from the title of this sticky, I'm not too old then?

26 is prime time to start flying, you'll be done your training by 28 and have Airline minimums by 30-32. The more mature you are the more desirable you are for an employer at all levels

[Scott C]

Hi all,

I'm shortly to head to Poland to complete my flying training, however, I am a bit concerned about job prospects once I finally have my licence in hand...

I am 31 years old, so getting on a bit compared to many coming out of the 'big' schools, but I have worked in the Aviation industry for 15+ years in a variety of roles, including; Ramp Agent, Dispatcher (Turnaround Coordinator), Ops, Ramp & Dispatch Trainer for a UK holiday airline, as well as in Management - Ramp Manager, Ground Operations Manager and currently as an Airport Manager, working between 2 airports for a large Ground Handling company.

Would this likely work in my favour having experience in the industry or are airlines / commercial operators preferring younger Pilots to join their ranks?

I got my PPL in 2009, but due to finance (mainly), it's taken until now to be able to afford to complete the rest of my training. At the end of it all I will have an EASA CPL/MEIR + MCC/JOC. It's been a long-term investment in terms of time and money, so whilst nothing is ever guaranteed, I suppose i'm just searching for some re-assurance that i'm not being put out to grass just yet!

Honest feedback would be appreciated.


Scott.

[coolsuper1998]

Hi all,

I'm shortly to head to Poland to complete my flying training, however, I am a bit concerned about job prospects once I finally have my licence in hand...

I am 31 years old, so getting on a bit compared to many coming out of the 'big' schools, but I have worked in the Aviation industry for 15+ years in a variety of roles, including; Ramp Agent, Dispatcher (Turnaround Coordinator), Ops, Ramp & Dispatch Trainer for a UK holiday airline, as well as in Management - Ramp Manager, Ground Operations Manager and currently as an Airport Manager, working between 2 airports for a large Ground Handling company.

Would this likely work in my favour having experience in the industry or are airlines / commercial operators preferring younger Pilots to join their ranks?

I got my PPL in 2009, but due to finance (mainly), it's taken until now to be able to afford to complete the rest of my training. At the end of it all I will have an EASA CPL/MEIR + MCC/JOC. It's been a long-term investment in terms of time and money, so whilst nothing is ever guaranteed, I suppose i'm just searching for some re-assurance that i'm not being put out to grass just yet!

Honest feedback would be appreciated.


Scott.

Trust me you are fine. Finish your training and just start applying. 30’s is still very young

[tolip1]

You have excellent credentials - go for it.

[richpea]

Hi all,

I'm shortly to head to Poland to complete my flying training, however, I am a bit concerned about job prospects once I finally have my licence in hand...

I am 31 years old, so getting on a bit compared to many coming out of the 'big' schools, but I have worked in the Aviation industry for 15+ years in a variety of roles, including; Ramp Agent, Dispatcher (Turnaround Coordinator), Ops, Ramp & Dispatch Trainer for a UK holiday airline, as well as in Management - Ramp Manager, Ground Operations Manager and currently as an Airport Manager, working between 2 airports for a large Ground Handling company.

Would this likely work in my favour having experience in the industry or are airlines / commercial operators preferring younger Pilots to join their ranks?

I got my PPL in 2009, but due to finance (mainly), it's taken until now to be able to afford to complete the rest of my training. At the end of it all I will have an EASA CPL/MEIR + MCC/JOC. It's been a long-term investment in terms of time and money, so whilst nothing is ever guaranteed, I suppose i'm just searching for some re-assurance that i'm not being put out to grass just yet!

Honest feedback would be appreciated.


Scott.

I have a similar story but with less of an aviation career background pre-licenses and an extra 8 years ahead of you.... it takes all sorts and any experience is good experience. What the kids have in potential career longevity and being a fresh slate to mould, we make up for in proven resilience, people skills and realistic expectations!

Good luck with it!

[rudestuff]

31 is old? Is this some kind of joke?

[Scott C]

Trust me you are fine. Finish your training and just start applying. 30’s is still very young

Thank you. I definitely intend to - all being well by the end of the year i'll be submitting applications.

You have excellent credentials - go for it.

Great, thanks!

I have a similar story but with less of an aviation career background pre-licenses and an extra 8 years ahead of you.... it takes all sorts and any experience is good experience. What the kids have in potential career longevity and being a fresh slate to mould, we make up for in proven resilience, people skills and realistic expectations!

Good luck with it!

Thanks very much. I hope you're right.

31 is old? Is this some kind of joke?

I don't think it is - The last 15 years i've had time to learn a lot about the industry and what's goes on outside the cockpit in other departments.

The reason I asked this is because when i've talked to colleagues and others about going to Poland for 2 months to complete my flying training, i've had a few comments along the lines of "Aren't you about 10 years too old to start being a Pilot?" I suppose I was looking for some re-assurance from those within the industry that I do definitely still have as a good a chance as anyone of a flying career.

[richpea]

The reason I asked this is because when i've talked to colleagues and others about going to Poland for 2 months to complete my flying training, i've had a few comments along the lines of "Aren't you about 10 years too old to start being a Pilot?" I suppose I was looking for some re-assurance from those within the industry that I do definitely still have as a good a chance as anyone of a flying career.


Were those colleagues pilots?

Changing career any time outside your early 20's often gets met with the "aren't you a bit late to start that" comment. Less people than you'd think have the imagination to consider a career change possible after about 27 years old... they're just trying to pass that lack of imagination on to you!

(P.S. Where in Poland are you going?)

[Scott C]

Were those colleagues pilots?

Changing career any time outside your early 20's often gets met with the "aren't you a bit late to start that" comment. Less people than you'd think have the imagination to consider a career change possible after about 27 years old... they're just trying to pass that lack of imagination on to you!

(P.S. Where in Poland are you going?)

No, ground-based colleagues.

Although it is essentially a career change, my ultimate goal has always to be a commercial Pilot... ever since I was 5 years old. However, i've tried to stay within the industry to help my experience and personal development - I suppose it could be seen as a stepping stone to where I want to be...

I was lined up to go to Smart Aviation but i've heard some worrying things lately, so will now likely be going to Adriana. Going over in a couple of weeks to visit both and make a final decision.

[A320Tiko]

IF you genuinely think you are over the hill at 30ish, try at 49! I am about to start my TR and onto BT in the hope of a career in aviation.

How much I wish I had taken the step in my 30's but family commitments and constraints meant I wasn't able to but I kept that drive and determination going that one day I will...

Keep going...

P.S Check my thread I've started :)

[FLCH]

At my airline we’ve hired 60 year olds …..you’re fine airline begins with U …….

[richpea]

No, ground-based colleagues.

Although it is essentially a career change, my ultimate goal has always to be a commercial Pilot... ever since I was 5 years old. However, i've tried to stay within the industry to help my experience and personal development - I suppose it could be seen as a stepping stone to where I want to be...

I was lined up to go to Smart Aviation but i've heard some worrying things lately, so will now likely be going to Adriana. Going over in a couple of weeks to visit both and make a final decision.

Thought as much... most of the pilots I've talked to have always been very supportive when it comes to age... the most negative thing I've heard is that sometimes it might be the case where if its a straight choice between someone like us and a young buck, the airline will naturally see a longer investment in the younger guy. But that shouldn't dissuade, if you've got the skills, you'll find something!

I went to Smart, finished at the end of May. Had a really great time. Feel free to PM me if you want a detailed opinion.

[portsharbourflyer]

I was short listed for selection for TUIs experienced pilot non airline background scheme at 42. Interview cancelled due to covid. Although I am not low houred it still shows 31 age wise is no issue if getting to the airlines is your thing.

[Aviator172s]

Hi Scott C,

I am 35 and in a similar situation as you are (although a bit older, hope not too old still) since I am going to start ground training for ATPL. I did PPL a couple of years ago, and as many of us here, have this dream job and life ever since I remember, so I decided I should try and hopefully, achieve it.

My main concerns are job prospects when I finish everything in 1,5-2 years time or so, probable recession, terms and conditions, pay to fly as potential only choice, and least important, being the "grandpa" in the theory classes :) compared to 18-20 yo lads. Even considering all these big uncertainties and hurdles, I decided to go for it...

Best of luck, we sure need it!

[DB777]

IF you genuinely think you are over the hill at 30ish, try at 49! I am about to start my TR and onto BT in the hope of a career in aviation.

How much I wish I had taken the step in my 30's but family commitments and constraints meant I wasn't able to but I kept that drive and determination going that one day I will...

Keep going...

P.S Check my thread I've started :)


There's maybe hope for me yet then at 43 now the kids are at/nearly at secondary school.
Tho my PPL (JAR) probably well out of date now and my local school/club is now closed post-covid.
Are 'middle-aged' newbies even favoured by the airlines in this brave new world...

[lpfflyer]

I was recently offered a place on easyjet MPL and I'm in my mid/late thirties. Only point through the selection process that my age was even raised was at the very end, and it was raised by me not them, asking the EZY training captain doing my interview about his thoughts on later career changers. He was entirely positive, with all the usual lines about maturity, life experience etc etc. And I know of at least two others that started MPL in late forties/early fifties.

I know MPL is a bit of a different route to modular, but EZY certainly don't seem to care if you're a bit older.

[DB777]

Just a message for those who are not sure of realistic upper age limits: Last week at the age of 49 and 3/4 I was offered sponsorship for the Generation easyJet scheme at CAE. By the time I start I'll be 50. All I can say was that I never gave up trying and it shows that easyJet will be an outstanding company to work for.

So how's it going dobbiej?

[Lightheart]

Can't believe so much time has passed since my first post on this Forum in Nov, 2004 wondering if I were too old to begin a career in aviation at 37. Why am I here now? Last night I passed 4000 hrs flight time. Doesn't seem like many since I began my training in 2005, but aviation has taken me on a journey with experiences I never would have lived had I not had the courage to go for it. It's not all been a bed of roses...I was "grounded" between 2012-2016 and those were very difficult years personally...but I always maintained my focus, discipline and being true to myself.

You CAN achieve anything in life.

Safe landings!

P.S. And only this week I got my third ICAO language certification. You're never too old to learn!

[damienqc]

Can't believe so much time has passed since my first post on this Forum in Nov, 2004 wondering if I were too old to begin a career in aviation at 37. Why am I here now? Last night I passed 4000 hrs flight time. Doesn't seem like many since I began my training in 2005, but aviation has taken me on a journey with experiences I never would have lived had I not had the courage to go for it. It's not all been a bed of roses...I was "grounded" between 2012-2016 and those were very difficult years personally...but I always maintained my focus, discipline and being true to myself.

You CAN achieve anything in life.

Safe landings!

P.S. And only this week I got my third ICAO language certification. You're never too old to learn!

Very inspiring post. Thanks for coming back after all these years.
I am in my late 30s and just passed my ME-IFR. Thinking hard about the CPL now because i have almost all the prerequisites. What matters is the journey.

[SoftwareDev]

I think this thread is exactly what I've been Googling!
26, Software Engineer, degree in Computer Science. It's a good career. It pays well and I kept my job over the pandemic, but it's just not for me. I'm about to reach out to a local school to start working towards my PPL. Being in work, cost isn't too much of an issue. My two main concerns were around how my age would come into play if I was to make a move towards becoming a commercial pilot and what exactly the best path is for me to take. I'm aware I would be taking a huge pay cut and it would cost a lot to get there. Seems like there is a lot of information out there, almost to the point where ?I have no idea where to look. I almost feel ridiculous even thinking about it.

I guess from the title of this sticky, I'm not too old then?

Well, here we are in November. I'm completely addicted to flying. I have my PPL and a Class 1. Kicking off ATPL studies in the new year.

[F1l1p3]

Well, here we are in November. I'm completely addicted to flying. I have my PPL and a Class 1. Kicking off ATPL studies in the new year.
People leave too many things for the new year and invariably achieve practically none. Commit and start now! Go on :p

[damienqc]

Well, here we are in November. I'm completely addicted to flying. I have my PPL and a Class 1. Kicking off ATPL studies in the new year.


I am probably an older version of you so here is my experience.

I am in my late 30s Software dev (actually a team manager on top of being a dev).

If you are unclear about the path in front of you, I suggest you do both in parallel. Keep and progress with your job, get pay increases. At the same time you can get new ratings/qualifications:
- Night VFR next
- Then do you cross country prerequisite. As part of it, do your 300NM XC for the CPL. Don't forget the stamps from FBOs on your logbook.
- When you are done with your Night VFR + XC, start the multi engine + ME-IFR. You will have 30 instrument hours left to do.

When you are done with ME-IFR you will realize you have many prerequisites done for the CPL. I am at this point.

In Canada (do not know for your country), when you start a CPL with the intent of finding a job, you can write off a lot of flying hours (back to PPL!) from your income.
That is where keeping your software job makes sense. As you go up in tax brackets, you can get more cash back from the government.

Also, another more important reason to keep your job is that you accumulate experience in that field. If for any reason, you need to go work back there in the future, you increase your chances to find a job.

In 2019, i was looking at the flight instructors leaving for companies with envy. I almost wanted to stop my software career and go all in. Less than a year later i was relieved to still have a job.
Depending on your financial situation, it will help you stay out of painful debt and remove some stress.

[PilotDoctor]

Hi everyone. Following this thread for 10 years. read many inspirational posts through years. Thanks those hwo helped to keep my dreams alive. I am 33 y/o, senior resident in neurosurgery (10 month left). I always wanted to be a commercial pilot but you know “life”. I am now married, 1 kid. We are living in Turkey and trying to move UK in 1-2 years. I am writing this post to come back in 5 years (i guess) as a com pilot. I was hoping to apply turkish airlines cadet program but they have 30y/o age limit so i couldnt. See you soon 🤚🏻

[Chris the Robot]

Given the airlines' recent focus on diversity, how old was the oldest tagged and/or sponsored cadet you've seen at the point they entered training?

Have you seen a regional or short-haul operator be persuaded that a 50 year old cadet will be much less likely to switch to a seniority-heavy long-haul airline after a few years of flying the line?

[rudestuff]

Hi everyone. Following this thread for 10 years. read many inspirational posts through years. Thanks those hwo helped to keep my dreams alive. I am 33 y/o, senior resident in neurosurgery (10 month left). I always wanted to be a commercial pilot but you know “life”.
Why on earth would your want to give up a job as a doctor to be a plane driver ..?

[JRK]

Hi everyone. Following this thread for 10 years. read many inspirational posts through years. Thanks those hwo helped to keep my dreams alive. I am 33 y/o, senior resident in neurosurgery (10 month left). I always wanted to be a commercial pilot but you know “life”. I am now married, 1 kid. We are living in Turkey and trying to move UK in 1-2 years. I am writing this post to come back in 5 years (i guess) as a com pilot. I was hoping to apply turkish airlines cadet program but they have 30y/o age limit so i couldnt. See you soon 🤚🏻

Umm, y-e-ah... Good luck...

[truckflyer]

I would say it all depends what your ambitious are. Instructing at local club or Airlines.
When I was 40 I had already has my PPL for long time, so I did not start from Zero, but I had not flown for almost 20 years or more.

I did modular, and was 42 when I finished the courses. 12 months later I got my first Airline job, and it was a lot of luck getting that first job.
Hard work. It was based in Europe, so would not work for most UK pilots today, with a young family, and commuting by air 3 hours to get to "home base" I used to have 2 full days at home, and 8 days of work and commuting either to work or home. But if you choose to go this way, you can't be picky and you should be aware of the pitfalls if you decide to invest +£100K into this career at a late time in your life.

It's hard on your private / personal life and health, when you start commuting, as you miss almost everything of importance and have very little say over your own life the first 4 - 5 years, it cost me a marriage (divorce) and the ensuing battles that comes with this (phycological stress which almost cost me my job/ career) This can manifest itself through your Sim checks, medicals and mental health with all the stress going on around in your life. Spending 2 days at home within a 10 day period, definitely did not improve family life, although for me personally there were other reasons for the divorce then the commuting / flying job, but it certainly was a factor.

Also be aware of even if you have a Class 1 medical, there are many things completely beyond our control when we get older, that suddenly happens with little or no notice. Issues with eye sight due to age, abnormal ECG readings which will cost a small fortune to have diagnosed, unhealthy lifestyle (food, drink etc) and work life (fatigue).
There are so many "traps" during this career if you manage to get into it, that can make you loose your job and your +£100K investment in training.

I was "lucky" and commuted only for 2 years, before I managed to get a job back in the UK. Instead of commuting 3 hours by air, I was now commuting only 4 (2+2) hours by car or train every day, but at least most days I was home with my family.
The initial contract for the first 4 years also back in the UK was not the greatest, depending on your lifestyle it might be big changes in your life and spending habits, besides if you are commuting the extra costs of these too adds up, both financially and with fatigue.

However during the whole time since I started, I made myself "small goals", and slowly over time I have ended up closer to home, better TC's and finally I got my move to LHS, 10 years after my first job in the industry, and delayed by 2.5 years due to Covid, which was another massive scare for the industry. The loss of Covid due to my age vs example pensions, has cost me a lot, but at least I managed to keep my job and get my upgrade as soon as life came back to normal.

But during the journey there have been many obstacles on the way, things that are beyond our control, things that can risk the economical security and safety of your family. So yes there is a bitter sweet happy ending, and overall I have no regrets, but this is the reality and it took me 10 years to get where I wanted, and the fear is that you can loose anytime for a dodgy ECG reading.

As an "older", we carry a lot more luggage in our lives, then someone in their early 20's or even early 30's.

[rudestuff]

As an "older", we carry a lot more luggage in our lives, then someone in their early 20's or even early 30's.Speak for yourself!
But a very good point - you need complete focus to make it in this game. Best to get the first divorce over sooner rather than later.

[73DT]

Hello

Honest advice sought please. I am 49 with a PPL, IR(R) nearly completed and about 250 hours. Becoming a pilot was always the plan since early childhood and I was sponsored through university on a RAF Cadetship but medically discharged just before IOT due to an issue that is long since resolved. I subsequently went into business for myself, did OK and have enough financial security that I can afford commercial pilot training and to take a job that I want to do, rather than worry too much about what it pays or what promotion prospects it offers. Mainly, I just want to enjoy what I do, work with some nice people and do a good job, ideally in an adequately resourced and apolitical environment.

After selling my company I retrained and now work for the NHS. On a good day I love it but overall I think I'd rather be flying. So, I am thinking about leaving my medical career behind, getting my CPL/IR and maybe flying for a (modest) living. I have a few specific questions and if anyone is able to answer all or any of them I would be very grateful:

1. Job opportunities - what (if any) job prospects might there be for a 50 year old pilot with a low hours CPL/IR? Where is the best place to look for such opportunities?
2. Training - would my employment prospects be strengthened by completing my training with one of the bigger flight training organisations?
3. Other ideas - are there any other interesting aviation career opportunities I could consider instead ? For example, I saw some advertisements recently for UAV pilots that appeared to be open to PPL holders, which sound interesting. As well as some flying experience I also had a successful 20 year career in business and I am also a qualified healthcare professional so perhaps there is a way to utilise this combined experience?

I appreciate the opportunities will be much more limited because of my age although I'm fit, healthy and hopefully have a solid 10-15 years left before I'm done, so time for one more career!

Any advice gratefully received, thank you.

Best wishes
73DT

[VariablePitchP]

Hello

Honest advice sought please.

1. Job opportunities - what (if any) job prospects might there be for a 50 year old pilot with a low hours CPL/IR? Where is the best place to look for such opportunities?
2. Training - would my employment prospects be strengthened by completing my training with one of the bigger flight training organisations?
3. Other ideas - are there any other interesting aviation career opportunities I could consider instead ? For example, I saw some advertisements recently for UAV pilots that appeared to be open to PPL holders, which sound interesting. As well as some flying experience I also had a successful 20 year career in business and I am also a qualified healthcare professional so perhaps there is a way to utilise this combined experience?

Any advice gratefully received, thank you.

Best wishes
73DT

Hi, like the question, this obviously isn’t a pipe dream!

1. Good, provided you are willing to potentially pay 30K for a type rating at somewhere like Ryanair. Jobs are available without but very competitive. £30K in the bank and a licence in hand today and you can be a Ryanair captain in five years on the right side of £100K

2. No No No No No!! I cannot stress this enough. The big schools are sausage factories which exist to maximise the revenue extraction from every student. You get the same bit of paper at the end but will pay £100K rather than £60K for the privilege. Expect to be treated like a 15 year old, seriously. I was a mere uni grad and it was a shock to me, you’ll be taken aback by how you’re treated. Have a look at how some of them handled their students over covid, disgusting. Go Modular, use the saved money for a type rating.

3. Meh, honestly it’s probably just little jobs to use PPL holders. They know they’ll work for nothing to get ‘drone pilot’ on their CV. You’re getting a licence, you want to be an airline captain, presumably, I wouldn’t mess about with that sort of thing (you wanted honesty)!

Age wise won’t be an issue in Europe, you’ll be a breath of fresh air to your instructors if anything.

Get your class 1 ASAP. If you get that in hand then look at options, here can help a lot.

Good luck with it! You’ll get a solid 12/13 years from it if you keep going until 65, and there is absolutely a real chance of being a captain for a good number of those years.

[73DT]

Thanks VariablePitchP, I really appreciate the time you have taken to reply and you have given me the nudge I needed to move forward with this.

I'd like to think it's a realistic possibility, I am used to long training/development pathways and navigating regulatory issues but I know there is a long queue of younger, more talented women and men in front of me with longer career spans, hence I wanted a realistic perspective from someone who knows what they are talking about.

I'll book a Class 1 slot just now and ensure I can cross this hurdle first.

Thanks again.

[PilotDoctor]

Why on earth would your want to give up a job as a doctor to be a plane driver ..?

sorry for late reply but i dont have a simple answer to it but if i try i would say i like my recent job and i like doing surgery and ''saving lives'' is good but i have never loved it and i feel that passion for ''driving planes''. if someone would hand me a 200-300k usd next morning i will quit as soon as i get my degree.

Umm, y-e-ah... Good luck...

thanks

[truckflyer]

Thanks VariablePitchP, I really appreciate the time you have taken to reply and you have given me the nudge I needed to move forward with this.

I'd like to think it's a realistic possibility, I am used to long training/development pathways and navigating regulatory issues but I know there is a long queue of younger, more talented women and men in front of me with longer career spans, hence I wanted a realistic perspective from someone who knows what they are talking about.

I'll book a Class 1 slot just now and ensure I can cross this hurdle first.

Thanks again.

"VariablePitchP" - warning, the advice given is extremely bad, actually some of the first I have seen, whoever they are, they clearly do not know the aviation world in Europe very well.

First my personal opinion I think you will struggle to get in with the airlines as your first job, definitely if you follow "VariablePitchP" advice. At this stage in life you have very few options. Brexit has not helped you, as you can't offer yourself to all of the EU, where there would have been some obscure opportunities to get a first job to get some experience.

I had a similar journey as you would like to embark on, but I was 10 years younger when I started, and due to the pandemic it took me around 10 years to get me to where I wanted and needed to be (should have been 8 if not for Covi, and I still have left another 11-12 years. I lost 2.5 years because of the pandemic, but I was lucky still having a job.

Are the jobs available for people your age, maybe, but going modular I would say at this stage you can forget getting an airline job. I did go modular myself, I waited 12 months after finishing before I got my first job with an EU operator, so I had to commute for this first job,

ATPL's would take you at least 6 months in the best case, another 6 - 12 months for CPL / IR / ME and MCC / JOC etc, you would be a lower hour pilot with no jet experience, and you will have spent at least 18 months, and imagine you are lucky and have a miracle, maybe in 30 months you get your first job as an FO (which I doubt will happen) You have lost at least 3 years living in uncertainty and spent loads of money and might still have no job to show for, and if you do have a job, expect to be paid not very well for at least 4 - 5 years.

I am no fan of the big training organizations, I think they overcharge and are taking advantage of people wanting to be pilots, however your best chance at your age, is that you manage to get enrolled in a course where you are guaranteed a job at the end of training. Sure modular will save you a lot of money, but what good is that if you have no job at the end of it.

I had a friend who did the course same time as me similar your age, and he was realistic in what was possible to achieve, of course he might get offered some job eventually, but I doubt you will ever make Captain with an airline if you go modular route. Even if you follow a program, there is a massive backlog in FO's who are waiting for upgrade, so expect it to take 5 -7 years from you start working.

If you have the money, apply and pass a course that guarantees you a job with an airline. At your age, you don't have time be messing around with other flying to gain experience, if that is what you want to do.

Get your medical first though, you might think you are fit, but there are thinks that can be hidden like ECG etc. that might be issues you are not aware of, so get that initial Class 1 done.

If you are happy to work as an instructor, then modular is maybe the way to go, depends what your goals are.

[richpea]

"VariablePitchP" - warning, the advice given is extremely bad, actually some of the first I have seen, whoever they are, they clearly do not know the aviation world in Europe very well.

First my personal opinion I think you will struggle to get in with the airlines as your first job, definitely if you follow "VariablePitchP" advice. At this stage in life you have very few options. Brexit has not helped you, as you can't offer yourself to all of the EU, where there would have been some obscure opportunities to get a first job to get some experience.

I had a similar journey as you would like to embark on, but I was 10 years younger when I started, and due to the pandemic it took me around 10 years to get me to where I wanted and needed to be (should have been 8 if not for Covi, and I still have left another 11-12 years. I lost 2.5 years because of the pandemic, but I was lucky still having a job.

Are the jobs available for people your age, maybe, but going modular I would say at this stage you can forget getting an airline job. I did go modular myself, I waited 12 months after finishing before I got my first job with an EU operator, so I had to commute for this first job,

ATPL's would take you at least 6 months in the best case, another 6 - 12 months for CPL / IR / ME and MCC / JOC etc, you would be a lower hour pilot with no jet experience, and you will have spent at least 18 months, and imagine you are lucky and have a miracle, maybe in 30 months you get your first job as an FO (which I doubt will happen) You have lost at least 3 years living in uncertainty and spent loads of money and might still have no job to show for, and if you do have a job, expect to be paid not very well for at least 4 - 5 years.

I am no fan of the big training organizations, I think they overcharge and are taking advantage of people wanting to be pilots, however your best chance at your age, is that you manage to get enrolled in a course where you are guaranteed a job at the end of training. Sure modular will save you a lot of money, but what good is that if you have no job at the end of it.

I had a friend who did the course same time as me similar your age, and he was realistic in what was possible to achieve, of course he might get offered some job eventually, but I doubt you will ever make Captain with an airline if you go modular route. Even if you follow a program, there is a massive backlog in FO's who are waiting for upgrade, so expect it to take 5 -7 years from you start working.

If you have the money, apply and pass a course that guarantees you a job with an airline. At your age, you don't have time be messing around with other flying to gain experience, if that is what you want to do.

Get your medical first though, you might think you are fit, but there are thinks that can be hidden like ECG etc. that might be issues you are not aware of, so get that initial Class 1 done.

If you are happy to work as an instructor, then modular is maybe the way to go, depends what your goals are.

I am a Brit, started my PPL on a modular route to trying to launch an aviation career at 36, in the year before the pandemic hit. I followed a completely modular path. In 12 days time I will start my type rating for a job with an airline at age 39.

So I'd completely disagree with your point of view in terms of jobs being available. I think at the moment it is actually incredibly hard to predict how airlines see the next year or so panning out, some will be conservative, some will want to have learned the lessons of the immediate post covid period and invest to be ready for rebound. Maybe some are figuring they will steal passengers from their more expensive competitors in this next year or so period.

For 73DT.... In terms of age, being 50 might limit you in some ways (as no airline is looking to hire a career FO)... however, a lot of the less glamorous name airlines are also aware that they are going to lose a fair number of their younger FOs and Capts. to the big boys, whereas an older hire is likely to be more loyal. They'll see a person who might stay with them for the rest of their working life, and that'll be a good enough for them to see a potential captain. Also don't downplay the fact that the older candidates have a massive amount of experience and transferable skills on the CV. One of the differences between a 20 year old and an older pilot is, sure, career longevity. But on the flip side, if you're looking at a pile of CVs that are identical, and then a guy who's had an interesting career, collected a bunch of qualifications etc. pops out, that's not a disadvantage!

At the end of the day, its really up to what you're willing to gamble. To be clear, be you 20 or 50, there is no guaranteed job at the end of the training process. The 20 year old has the advantage of more time to be able to wait, and probably less financial commitments to take care of. You as an older candidate have the advantage of a far more attractive CV in comparison to 90% of the kiddies, and the impression that you must REALLY want to do the job if you're attempting it at this age!

I'd say go for it, because it's worked out for me so far. I'm sure there are people who'll say avoid like the plague because they, or people they know, didn't have a great outcome... choice is yours! Good luck!

[truckflyer]

I am a Brit, started my PPL on a modular route to trying to launch an aviation career at 36, in the year before the pandemic hit. I followed a completely modular path. In 12 days time I will start my type rating for a job with an airline at age 39.

So I'd completely disagree with your point of view in terms of jobs being available. I think at the moment it is actually incredibly hard to predict how airlines see the next year or so panning out, some will be conservative, some will want to have learned the lessons of the immediate post covid period and invest to be ready for rebound. Maybe some are figuring they will steal passengers from their more expensive competitors in this next year or so period.

For 73DT.... In terms of age, being 50 might limit you in some ways (as no airline is looking to hire a career FO)... however, a lot of the less glamorous name airlines are also aware that they are going to lose a fair number of their younger FOs and Capts. to the big boys, whereas an older hire is likely to be more loyal. They'll see a person who might stay with them for the rest of their working life, and that'll be a good enough for them to see a potential captain. Also don't downplay the fact that the older candidates have a massive amount of experience and transferable skills on the CV. One of the differences between a 20 year old and an older pilot is, sure, career longevity. But on the flip side, if you're looking at a pile of CVs that are identical, and then a guy who's had an interesting career, collected a bunch of qualifications etc. pops out, that's not a disadvantage!

At the end of the day, its really up to what you're willing to gamble. To be clear, be you 20 or 50, there is no guaranteed job at the end of the training process. The 20 year old has the advantage of more time to be able to wait, and probably less financial commitments to take care of. You as an older candidate have the advantage of a far more attractive CV in comparison to 90% of the kiddies, and the impression that you must REALLY want to do the job if you're attempting it at this age!

I'd say go for it, because it's worked out for me so far. I'm sure there are people who'll say avoid like the plague because they, or people they know, didn't have a great outcome... choice is yours! Good luck!

There are jobs, but they are now primary going to MPL students or other flight programs, I have seen "older" candidates come through on these programs the last 12 months and straight in the company as an FO. You started your Modular route when 36, I was 40, there is some time, but if you are 50 you don't have 4 -5 years to mess around in my opinion if your goal is to get into an airline job.
There is a stage where to modular route is not the best option for some, unless they are happy to waste 70 - 100K (with TR), and see where it leads them.
Also there are many ex-pats who have been stuck abroad longer then they expected, dying to come back to UK for various reasons, and these are experienced both Captains and FO's, so getting in from the "outside" modular route is not going to be easy. Btw Ryanair are fairly ageist if you are low hours and over 40.

Also important, are you willing to re-locate / commute big distances to take any job you get offered. My first job I was basically away 8 days and 2 days home, missed every important significant occasions in family life over those 2 years, Christmas Eve and Christmas day was stuck in a 2 star hotel with no heating, where all the staff had gone home at 7 Pm so no food etc.
If you have been successful in business and had a "good lifestyle", this might come as a shock to you. Not every 50 year old are willing to be treated this way at this stage in their life, so you need to ask yourself are you willing to spend 4 - 5 years spending thousands of pounds, to then be treated and paid crap?

And the progression from TP to Jets, is not something that happens a lot anymore, so all depends what you want.

However there is no way someone starting at 50 who wants to have a shot in a good airline with ok conditions for a few years, 10 - 13 years is going to be the max, will have much chance of that going Modular that late in life.
Making the choice when you are 36 / 39 vs 50 are 2 very different things, 36 I would not even categorize as "old" to start.
Personally when I decided to go for it, I felt that was the latest time to do it, I would never have done it if I was 50. My personal cut off limit would have been 45 to have completed any training.

[richpea]

There are jobs, but they are now primary going to MPL students or other flight programs, I have seen "older" candidates come through on these programs the last 12 months and straight in the company as an FO. You started your Modular route when 36, I was 40, there is some time, but if you are 50 you don't have 4 -5 years to mess around in my opinion if your goal is to get into an airline job.
There is a stage where to modular route is not the best option for some, unless they are happy to waste 70 - 100K (with TR), and see where it leads them.
Also there are many ex-pats who have been stuck abroad longer then they expected, dying to come back to UK for various reasons, and these are experienced both Captains and FO's, so getting in from the "outside" modular route is not going to be easy. Btw Ryanair are fairly ageist if you are low hours and over 40.

Also important, are you willing to re-locate / commute big distances to take any job you get offered. My first job I was basically away 8 days and 2 days home, missed every important significant occasions in family life over those 2 years, Christmas Eve and Christmas day was stuck in a 2 star hotel with no heating, where all the staff had gone home at 7 Pm so no food etc.
If you have been successful in business and had a "good lifestyle", this might come as a shock to you. Not every 50 year old are willing to be treated this way at this stage in their life, so you need to ask yourself are you willing to spend 4 - 5 years spending thousands of pounds, to then be treated and paid crap?

And the progression from TP to Jets, is not something that happens a lot anymore, so all depends what you want.

However there is no way someone starting at 50 who wants to have a shot in a good airline with ok conditions for a few years, 10 - 13 years is going to be the max, will have much chance of that going Modular that late in life.
Making the choice when you are 36 / 39 vs 50 are 2 very different things, 36 I would not even categorize as "old" to start.
Personally when I decided to go for it, I felt that was the latest time to do it, I would never have done it if I was 50. My personal cut off limit would have been 45 to have completed any training.

I'm not saying you don't have some points to consider, but I also think you paint an overly bleak picture.

At the end of the day the big thing I do agree with you on is that its really about how fast you are willing and able to progress your training as an older pilot, what you're willing to risk in terms of the life you already have, and how open your eyes are to the realities of being a new low hours airline pilot and that your employer (should you get one) is going to expect you to make the same sacrifices and moves as the guys who've just left 6th form college.

[truckflyer]

I'm not saying you don't have some points to consider, but I also think you paint an overly bleak picture.

At the end of the day the big thing I do agree with you on is that its really about how fast you are willing and able to progress your training as an older pilot, what you're willing to risk in terms of the life you already have, and how open your eyes are to the realities of being a new low hours airline pilot and that your employer (should you get one) is going to expect you to make the same sacrifices and moves as the guys who've just left 6th form college.

I am trying to paint a realistic picture, applying for your first job at 52 -53 years old for an airline, is not going to be easy. Specially for one of the better companies. What you want to hear and reality are 2 very different things. If you are willing to invest over £100.000 at this age early 50's, you need to understand there is very little chance you will ever get this back.
Sure your CV might seem more "interesting", equally they know you arrive with a lot more "luggage", family, kids and a life outside aviation.
In addition it might be easier to train "young" pilots instead of "older" pilots, as we often don't have the same time to dedicate to the job as might be expected. Also consider example first job if you are lucky at 52, you will work the first 4-5 years for peanuts in most companies. If you only have few years left to retirement, would the company be eager to upgrade you to Captain?
Many companies are looking for pilots they can "mould" in a certain way of thinking and culture, I believe that if you start aiming for an airline career in your early 50's, you are unfortunately on the wrong end of the drag curve.

In the end is you choice what you decide to do, is your life and your money. However expect it to end up into nothing, that is the reality, unless you change your goals and expectations and can see other career paths that are not within the airlines.

[richpea]

I am trying to paint a realistic picture, applying for your first job at 52 -53 years old for an airline, is not going to be easy. Specially for one of the better companies. What you want to hear and reality are 2 very different things. If you are willing to invest over £100.000 at this age early 50's, you need to understand there is very little chance you will ever get this back.
Sure your CV might seem more "interesting", equally they know you arrive with a lot more "luggage", family, kids and a life outside aviation.
In addition it might be easier to train "young" pilots instead of "older" pilots, as we often don't have the same time to dedicate to the job as might be expected. Also consider example first job if you are lucky at 52, you will work the first 4-5 years for peanuts in most companies. If you only have few years left to retirement, would the company be eager to upgrade you to Captain?
Many companies are looking for pilots they can "mould" in a certain way of thinking and culture, I believe that if you start aiming for an airline career in your early 50's, you are unfortunately on the wrong end of the drag curve.

In the end is you choice what you decide to do, is your life and your money. However expect it to end up into nothing, that is the reality, unless you change your goals and expectations and can see other career paths that are not within the airlines.

Yes, people making the career change towards the end of their working life should definitely be doing it with their eyes open... this of course applies for pretty much any career if you are changing post 50 years old, I've heard the same advice you're giving related to older folks wanting to get into academia, archaeology and teaching. I guess the point is, do it if you're doing it for the experience and satisfaction of doing it and maybe fulfilling a life long dream. Maybe don't try it if you're expecting it to pay itself back financially or in terms of career security?

[truckflyer]

Yes, people making the career change towards the end of their working life should definitely be doing it with their eyes open... this of course applies for pretty much any career if you are changing post 50 years old, I've heard the same advice you're giving related to older folks wanting to get into academia, archaeology and teaching. I guess the point is, do it if you're doing it for the experience and satisfaction of doing it and maybe fulfilling a life long dream. Maybe don't try it if you're expecting it to pay itself back financially or in terms of career security?

The problem with pilot profession is that the cut of age is 65, many other educations does not have this limitation.

[Beaker_]

73DT Would flight instruction or some kind of GA work be of interest?

[Krautwald]

Before aviation took the Covid nosedive, the general attitude seemed to be "if you really want it, have the means and are flexible, you will be able to fly for a living". Also people at 40yo and older were getting this type of response a lot.

It´s remarkable that this has flipped almost 180 degrees. Lots of discouraging replies to the older wannabes lately. This is not to say that they are not justified; could be entirely correct. I just noticed how the whole outlook has changed. It´s sad really. I liked those years when openness to biographical change had become such a normalcy (not only in terms of career).

[truckflyer]

Before aviation took the Covid nosedive, the general attitude seemed to be "if you really want it, have the means and are flexible, you will be able to fly for a living". Also people at 40yo and older were getting this type of response a lot.

It´s remarkable that this has flipped almost 180 degrees. Lots of discouraging replies to the older wannabes lately. This is not to say that they are not justified; could be entirely correct. I just noticed how the whole outlook has changed. It´s sad really. I liked those years when openness to biographical change had become such a normalcy (not only in terms of career).

Are you reading the posts?

There is a big difference to start at 40 or 50. "if you really want it" vs reality, you choose what you want to hear many times. And of course Covid changed a lot, many peoples career progress stopped / paused, and these are now all delayed 3 - 4 years in the career progress. It does seem much of the "backlog" is being cleared up, but those who had their training postponed in 2020, are now having it completed and getting into many of they jobs they were promised.

If you want it presented with rose tinted glasses, great, but don't cry after you spent £100K and you are in your mid 50's, and the best job you can get is FI job making £20K a year.

If you are starting in your 50's, be real of what you possibly can achieve, early 40's and you have the means, sure go for it.
There are people coming on here in their mid 30's thinking they are old to start, which they are not. The "to old" becomes relevant once you have rounded 45 - 50 and have still not got hours, medical or any ratings. At that stage it becomes a gamble, and if you do it at least try those dreaded schools who gets you straight into a job when your training has been completed.

I know in the UK recently there were a few companies recruiting FO's, they all wanted type rated FO's with hours on type, I know because I have friends who have thousands of hours but on the wrong type, and they could not apply. The backlog is huge, and there are many very qualified pilots who are waiting to fil those jobs.

Who would the airline hire? A 50 year old with 10.000 hours on business jets, or a 50 year old with Zero hours and no TR?
I would say the situation at the moment is not that companies are not hiring, but they like their "sausage factory" cadets, who gets trained and mentored like they want them. They will arrive at fairly high standard, be happy to accept substandard conditions for 4 - 5 years while they gain experience. I myself went modular, but recently I have not seen many modular students been hired, as they simply don't qualify to even apply.
Maybe RYR and Wizz do, but heavy competition to get in, and RYR are definitely an ageist company once you have passed 40.

If you can accept to have no expectations of getting any well paid job after your £100K investment, then go for it. (if you are over 50)

[flash8]

The demands of the syllabus, flying skills, focus etc. would for many over 50+ I think be somewhat demanding and I'd expect huge attrition rates during the training phase... so even getting through would be pretty admirable and that is before the T/R.

A guess but perhaps less than one in a hundred newly minted CPL's seeking an airline position are over 50, so stick out you most certainly will.

[Unusual Attitude]

This is actually a very interesting thread as I'm in exactly that position. 48 currently and after having spent 30 years behind a desk building a very successful business I'm feeling its now time to go fly for a living before its too late.

Not exactly starting from scratch though, gained my PPL at 20, CPL at 30 and fortunate to now have about 1100hrs, with150hrs multi / IFR time gained flying my light twin for business trips and pleasure so plenty of real world experience flying up and down the country single pilot IFR in a 6 lever twin (think one armed paper hanger!). By the time I negotiate my company exit, redo my ATPLS (long expired) plus all the other bits MCC / UPRT etc I'm likely to be very close to 50. I've made my money now thought so would be more than happy seeing out my days flying a Turboprop around north of the border with a bit of instructing on the side.

Yes I'm old and crusty but wondering if my real world IFR twin flying and a bunch of hours might make my CV stand out a bit Vs a freshly minted CPL holder with 300hrs or whether, as has been mentioned previously, most airlines would much prefer someone they can mould from scratch and my experience is actually more of a hindrance?

Regards

UA

[truckflyer]

This is actually a very interesting thread as I'm in exactly that position. 48 currently and after having spent 30 years behind a desk building a very successful business I'm feeling its now time to go fly for a living before its too late.

Not exactly starting from scratch though, gained my PPL at 20, CPL at 30 and fortunate to now have about 1100hrs, with150hrs multi / IFR time gained flying my light twin for business trips and pleasure so plenty of real world experience flying up and down the country single pilot IFR in a 6 lever twin (think one armed paper hanger!). By the time I negotiate my company exit, redo my ATPLS (long expired) plus all the other bits MCC / UPRT etc I'm likely to be very close to 50. I've made my money now thought so would be more than happy seeing out my days flying a Turboprop around north of the border with a bit of instructing on the side.

Yes I'm old and crusty but wondering if my real world IFR twin flying and a bunch of hours might make my CV stand out a bit Vs a freshly minted CPL holder with 300hrs or whether, as has been mentioned previously, most airlines would much prefer someone they can mould from scratch and my experience is actually more of a hindrance?

Regards

UA

You are not starting from scratch, but slightly late, so that is better then many others of course, all depends for what jobs.
I don't know the current TP market, but I do understand that it is very hard to get a Jet job from TP, as many airlines unfortunately no longer appreciate this experience.
So have realistic expectations of where and how far you might go.
If I was you, I would take my ratings required and start applying, while still keeping my business running. You might get lucky, also most TP companies are not taking their pilots from the "sausage factories"

I am slightly more positive since you already have that amount of hours, but expect that you might get stuck in TP for most or all of your career. So there is limited returns on your investment, but if this does not matter then why not give it a go.

The problem with the "sausage factories", is that most there are already guaranteed a job with an operator as part of their selection process. Unless we see a sudden shortage of flight crew, I don't think there will be many from outside this.
BA, Virgin, Easy, Wizz and Jet2 have recruiting a lot, but all for people with hours and TR / experience. Ryanair are definitely slightly "ageist" based on personal experience.

But if you are happy with TP and instructing, I do think you would have a fair chance at this stage.

[rudestuff]

Age is only a problem if you tell them how old you are, so remove that from your CV.

If they want a 'freshly minted' fATPL then only give them the date of your Exam passes and MCC course.

If you think they want 200 hours and that your hours will count against you, write 1100 as '200+'

[rudestuff]

By the time I negotiate my company exit, redo my ATPLS (long expired) plus all the other bits MCC / UPRT etc The ATPLs are still valid as long as you haven't gone more than 7 years without renewing your IR.
You don't actually need the ATPL exams until you move to the left seat, so you can start flying with just the CPL/IR and MCC etc..

[Unusual Attitude]

You are not starting from scratch, but slightly late, so that is better then many others of course, all depends for what jobs.
I don't know the current TP market, but I do understand that it is very hard to get a Jet job from TP, as many airlines unfortunately no longer appreciate this experience.
So have realistic expectations of where and how far you might go.
If I was you, I would take my ratings required and start applying, while still keeping my business running. You might get lucky, also most TP companies are not taking their pilots from the "sausage factories"

I am slightly more positive since you already have that amount of hours, but expect that you might get stuck in TP for most or all of your career. So there is limited returns on your investment, but if this does not matter then why not give it a go.

The problem with the "sausage factories", is that most there are already guaranteed a job with an operator as part of their selection process. Unless we see a sudden shortage of flight crew, I don't think there will be many from outside this.
BA, Virgin, Easy, Wizz and Jet2 have recruiting a lot, but all for people with hours and TR / experience. Ryanair are definitely slightly "ageist" based on personal experience.

But if you are happy with TP and instructing, I do think you would have a fair chance at this stage.

Thanks for the feedback, Really not fussed about chasing down a jet job so all good on that front, would be very happy flogging around in a TP until its time to retire quite honestly and my company exit will pay out enough not to have to worry about the financial aspects. Its taken a lot of blood sweat and tears to get to that point though!

[starbuck123]

Hello everyone.
Putting this message out to get an honest view based on current climate etc. I’m 42, work in Cyber Security and decided to change direction and do something I was going to do in my college years. You guess it, become a commercial pilot. I will be most definitely going down the modular route as I need the income etc. I am visiting the aviation open day next month to et an idea of the schools and see which one gives me a good vibe. However there is one thing that keeps bothering me and holding me back slightly…..my age. Have I left it too late?

[Romeo__Mike]

Definitely not. My friend was on an EasyJet course with 2 45 y/o's. Step 1 go for a trial flight if you haven't done so. Step 2, get a medical. Oh and seriously ask yourself about studying whilst working full time towards the ATPL exams as they take over your life.

[portsharbourflyer]

Unusual Attitude, if you maintained a current IR your ATPL exams will remain valid? So you may find you do not need to resit. If you have never let an IR lapse by more than 7 years you will find they are still current.

[rudestuff]

Unusual Attitude, if you maintained a current IR your ATPL exams will remain valid? So you may find you do not need to resit. If you have never let an IR lapse by more than 7 years you will find they are still current.
Even if he/she/they didn't maintain them they're still valid. ATPL exams have no expiry date with respect to an MP type rating.

[portsharbourflyer]

Apologies Rudestuff noticed you posted the same earlier on, I should remember to scroll up in future.

[rudestuff]

To be fair I rarely read anything either!

[gevarlik]

Hello all ,

First post and could use some advice . Here is the situation I am looking at :
- I'm 43
- licensed millwright & electrician
- mortgage paid , life is good
- don't know a thing about helicopters but lots of experience working on gas / steam turbines ( oil & gas )
- bought a helicycle
- taking flight school now ......only 3 flights under my belt in a R22 and progressing well

My question is , am i too old to be a commercial pilot ? The private pilot license in Canada is going to cost serious money ( 30k + ) and I find that a lot of $ to drop on a hobby . The commercial license will be 100k + & i can see that being a sound investment but with all the certifications / endorsements involved am I too old to play catch up to these willie young fellas ?

One more question , am I able to use my flight hours on my own craft towards my commercial license ?

best regards
SJ