The perpetual 'Am I too old?' thread

[shaun ryder]

dboy. I have been there and done it and nothing comes close to flying. Would you prefer to be on standby for your biz jet or slogging away at some mundane task in an office? Groundhog day springs to mind. On average compared to a 'normal job' there is no comparison. I watch my neighbours jumping in their cars at 06:30 every morning 9-5 and I pity them. Rush hour traffic every day? No thanks. Sure we work unsociable hours as well but there is no comparison. I am at home more now than I have ever been, my kids actually know who I am! I have been through the hating flying thing and now I truly know how fortunate I am to have my career. Sometimes you have to happy with your lot mate.

Dr Mike Oxgreen. As for starting at 43 well nothing is impossible. I would caution trying to fall back on some obviously lost skills such as the IMC rating (whats that, 15hrs instruction?). It will not make your IR training any easier. Hows your situational awareness these days? As for finding the ATPL exams a piece of cake just because you are a maths genius that just makes you sound cocky. You are 43 now, we don't learn as quick as the youngsters, something you may want to factor in.. In my opinion should you choose to embark on this very steep climb, I would start with a completely clean sheet, free from preconceptions with a good dose of humility thrown in. You will be sniffed out in no time otherwise. Remember you will be up against the younger and better candidates (I hate saying this, but in my experience true). Nobody cares about 'life experience' either. Good for a chat maybe but not applicable to ability in the flight deck. A lot of older FO's carry can carry a chip on their shoulder, especially the ones who have had successful careers in a previous life and are now disillusioned with flying, would that be you? Why do you want the career in aviation? Is it because you love to fly? Are you passionate about aviation? If so why do you no longer fly? Some questions you may want to ask yourself.

Finally regarding basing, you really can not enter in to this industry thinking that you will never have to move. Especially at the start of your career. You should be willing to go anywhere to bag that first job, so get the idea out of your head now.

[Dr Mike Oxgreen]

Thanks for taking the time to give such a detailed reply, truckflyer - I appreciate it.

Right now I'm very confused, because I'm getting such conflicting views (and yes, I know to ignore what the schools would tell me - haven't even spoken to any of them yet).

On this thread the overwhelming view is "don't do it, you'll never get a job, even youngsters all struggle for years and years". But that isn't what I see when I look at my friends who have made the transition.


Friend 1 gave up a software job about 10 years ago (2 years after 9/11) at the age of about 30. Did his training, got the all-important first-time IR pass, and practically walked straight into a job flying A320s for BA based close to home. He is now transitioning to 747.

Friend 2 also gave up a software job at the same time as friend 1, and at about the same age. Likewise, at the end of his training he walked straight into a job for EasyJet (again, based close to home), and is now a captain.

Friend 3 left the Navy just a few years ago at the age of about 28 and trained pretty quickly. He went straight into a job flying 737s for Ryanair (yet again, based in the same part of the country). He is now part way through transitioning to BA to fly 747.

Friend 4 gave up running his own taxi cab business 4 or 5 years ago at a similar age to me. He had to hunt a bit harder, but he wasn't out of work for all that long - he found very interesting work doing calibration flying. And he didn't have to move. I'm seeing this friend for lunch soon, and he has hinted that he could have done better if he were doing it today. Will be interesting to hear more.

By contrast, I don't know anybody who has transitioned from a 'normal' job into flying who has struggled to find work, or who has had to grub around working in the armpit of nowhere for years. And yet on this thread everyone says that the examples above can't happen, or are vanishingly unlikely. But my friends can't all have been extraordinarily lucky!

Could it be that this thread is attracting the people who have indeed struggled and who are altruistically motivated to discourage others from struggling as they have, whereas those who have found work fairly easily (as my friends have) are just getting on with their lives? I don't think any of the friends I mentioned post on pprune, so you're not hearing their success stories.

I really don't know what to think. I can't reconcile the huge discrepancy between the people here and the people I know personally. I don't want to ignore either group. And it isn't just that my friends are telling me what I want to hear; the summaries above are based on the objective facts of what happened to them.

I is confuse!

[Dr Mike Oxgreen]

Shaun_ryder, you've misquoted me several times there!

I didn't say that the IR would be easy for me. I acknowledged that it would be tough, but the bit of instrument flying I've done means I know how tough. I won't be an ab initio student with absolutely no idea of instrument flying - I've already been through that "WTF" experience of grappling with it for the first time.

And where did I say that the ATPL theories would be a piece of cake? People who know me and have done it themselves tell me that I won't struggle, but that's a long way from saying it'll be easy. It'll be slightly less difficult for me because I have a scientific and technical background, and because I have experience of studying hard.

[flightbooking]

You are not too old. Situation in hiring is better than it was a couple of years ago. It still does not guarantee you a job at the end but you have definitely better chances. You have to decide if you can afford risking a lot of £££ on this, however in your situation it will not be as much as if you had to start from scratch. If you start try to finish and get everythign as soon as possible because nobody knows how long the ramp up in hiring will last. ATPL will not be an issue at all with your background, it just takes time to go through on all of them.

However I have to agree with truckflyier in that if you decide to go down this path you cannot limit yourself to a certain geographical area. If you do you drastically reduce your chance to find a job. As a pilot you have to accept that your base can be easily hundreds or even thousands of kilometers away from your home. Especially in the beginning.

[Dr Mike Oxgreen]

Thanks for all the replies so far, guys! Apologies if it seems that I'm not acknowledging them, but as a newbie my posts are in a moderation holding pattern so my responses are inevitably slow.

On the subject of moving home, I would certainly consider renting out my house and living somewhere else if I had to. Ideally in England or Scotland, possibly Ireland. But like I say, I know several people who haven't had to do that, including at least one fairly recent case.

[shaun ryder]

Go do it and see where fate takes you. There are plenty of people out there all with different stories but the hard facts are this game is very competitive. It's hard enough to get a job with a type rating and +10,000hrs, believe it! It seems the way of the world is geared toward youth/young age. Hard fact of life applicable to all industries.

Edit: by the time you finish training are we still likely to be in an upturn or another downward cycle? If it seems ok here and now thats not to say it'll be the same a few years down the line.

[truckflyer]

"On this thread the overwhelming view is "don't do it, you'll never get a job, even youngsters all struggle for years and years". But that isn't what I see when I look at my friends who have made the transition."

That is a very naive thought by you here, there are Thousands with that little blue book, who can not get a job.

I know guys who finished their training over 6 years ago, still renewing their IR every year, working in Ops., Cabin Crew still searching for their first jobs.

What I do not understand, if you have these 4 examples, why do you bother to come on these forums to ask for advice, when of course you are looking for a specific answer.

It's not impossible, that's true, but you will join thousands of others without a experience looking for a job, and your age experience is not a positive when it comes to recruitment.

[truckflyer]

shaun ryder - is right here on many points, still an upturn, but there is also very big chance many guys will be looking for jobs in few years with loads of experience, if we are to believe the guys who have fled Monarch and FlyBe.

Personally, do I have regrets, if I am going to be 100 % honest, probably a little. having 2.5 days of rest in 10 days, and having management treat you like ****, makes you wonder why any normal person would go and spend £100.000 to become a pilot, when you can't even survive on a normal FO pay.

[Dr Mike Oxgreen]

I'm not looking for a specific answer, I assure you. I'm simply trying to understand the huge discrepancy between what's being said here and what I see amongst people I know. It's very hard to decide which to believe.

If what you're saying is that I'm unlikely to ever get a job, then fine - I will build that into my overall assessment of what to do. But I can't simply ignore the fact that I've seen people succeed - that should also be part of my assessment.

[shaun ryder]

Dr Mike Oxgreen. According to your post you are 43 years old. If you started training tomorrow it would be at least 18 months down the line until you achieve the bare minimum requirements in order to apply for a job. By this time you will most likely be the wrong side of forty. I am a captain flying for a major UK based airline. Nearly all of the cadets/new joiners that I fly with are either in their twenties or early thirties. Unfortunately for the old timers, this seems to be the preference across the board where recruiting bare faced recruits with no experience is concerned. Now you come on here seeking opinions about your situation, I have nothing to gain by offering what I consider to be a fair analysis of the situation. To put it simply, you are not going to find it easy to get a suitable job flying airliners due to your circumstances. Now your four friends are unlikely to poo poo your idea, they will of course offer you words of encouragement and support, just like I have done for a number of friends who have failed in their quest to become an airline pilot. I think a previous poster mentioned guys they knew who had searched for six years for employment. I know someone who's been at it for 13 years now and is still clutching at straws. No airline job! No one really cares whether or not you go off and pursue your dream, thats up to you. If however you want to obtain a broad spectrum of advice on the subject then listen to some of the posters on here and not just your friends. Best of luck to you.

[Marlon Brando]

26, you're not too old !
But do it now, will be one of the oldest of your classmate. But if you go integrated in a big school, you have good chances to get a job straight in an airline.

Dr Mike oxygen, of course 43 is way too old. It's not impossible, some guys win the euromillion at 43, which is statistically harder than getting a flying job.
Your chances of being successful are very small, but, depending of your money/family etc, you can go for it...

And get a first time pass at the IR, good training reports, etc on your CV is peanuts compared with your date of birth.
Most of my young classmates have been called by ryanair for interview, all of them got hired. My results at the exams were better than some of them. I never been invited.

[Marlon Brando]

I posted my experience a few posts above but as a new joiner, my posts need approval prior to being published, sorry for the lag

[truckflyer]

Another very valid point, having the bare minimum fATPL, might seem like a big task, and it is of course much work, but it is fairly "easy" compared to many other professions to pass the theory ATPL's, they are not so difficult, just time consuming. The IR similar, when you understand the basics, it's just practice.

But it's big step from having fresh fATPL to getting a job, and you will soon discover that the airlines are looking for much more then just the bare minimum with regards to skills then the fATPL, and I have seen some older guys struggle with this part, as they often need a little more time, and many airlines have the luxury that they don't need to spend more time, as they have plenty of qualified candidates.

But if you do start this, don't think you just need the money for the IR/CPL and theory, you will also need the money for the TR, if you ever get offered a job, you will with 99.9% chance have to pay/fund your own TR, specially at your age.

So you will need probably at least £70.000 available over the next 2 - 3 years, that you can spend to be paid around £1500 - £2500 a month, never having time for your friends, your wife or any other family, because you are living the dream !

:}

[Marlon Brando]

There is other scheme out there, easy, flybe...
MPL usually, it is the only secure way to get the job at the end.

It's really a big money game now.

[Krautwald]

I know this is kind of a delicate aspect, and please don´t read it wrong - but so far, all the female pilots I have met on my way during modular training, got their chance upon completing training. If they completed and where capable, that is.

So if you in any way are a "minority" in aviation, and can live up to the minimum standards, that might trump the age factor and at least get you an interview. Just my impression, alternate views and opinions are welcome.

[class2ldn]

Just seen this thread.
I'm 33 and a train driver and I'm looking at making the change. I'd have to go modular though as I couldnt afford to give up my job.
Quite a scary prospect of spending all that money and having no job at the end.
I have about a year to be able to go back as a qualified driver after which time Id have to start again as a trainee.
Definitely something I'd have to think seriously about.
Going to do my ppl and see where I am after that.

[Happy Wanderer]

Class2ldn, forgive me, but you'll probably be earning a lot more now in your current job (with potential to earn more given your age) than you will as a pilot, so do think very carefully before making the jump, particularly with no g'teed job at the end of it. There's quite a lot on here about the comparison between pilot and train driver jobs if you can find it - I have limited understanding of what's involved in being a driver, but one thing I'm pretty sure of is you don't have to pay for your training and job is a lot more 'protected' and secure than a pilot's - and you'll probably see a lot more of your family too. I'm sure there are some guys who'd gladly make the switch the other way given half the chance!

HW

[Martin_123]

I'm 28 and have started my ATPL theory, pretty much juggling my current full time career with studies. Even at my age I fear that airlines might look down on me, as by the time I finish, I'll be 30+. It's a very tough decision to make - society dictates I should put that money towards a property or investment. It's very difficult to explain a concept of spending tens of thousands of euros to gain an education with very little chance of work to any financially responsible person.

However I enjoy flying, I enjoy learning. I didn't start my PPL with a view of turning it into career, I just wanted to fly. But as soon as my training was done and winter weather arrived, I felt a big void. Probably during that year of PPL training I learned more about myself than I ever did. I don't really want to ask or know for that matter, am I too old? I will go and get that licence - without it, I will never know for sure. And in case if things don't work out, I'm sure a CPL/IR will make me a better pilot anyway. As long as I don't shut any doors behind me, I can always fall back on my current career and enjoy flying as a hobby.. ultimately I've never really regret things I have done, I only regret those which I don't

[truckflyer]

Don't worry at 28, you not even close to be being to old. The question arises and should be considered more seriously when you approach late 30's or early 40's , if it it's a gamble worth taking.

Lets be clear, if you have the money to do your training at this age, you have most likely been pretty successful in your "other" career in some way, and you are accustomed to a certain lifestyle.

That is probably the biggest shock to the system, is that the aviation industry treat people not always in the best way and the way you expect to be normal. So your life standards and exceptions should be lowered, at least until you get to a company and position where you feel you are ready to settle.

[Martin_123]

Lets be clear, if you have the money to do your training at this age, you have most likely been pretty successful in your "other" career in some way, and you are accustomed to a certain lifestyle.

this is bang on! And I guess it's not just the lifestyle (although I'm not posh at all), the main problem for me is going to be the attitude! I don't remember when was the last time I was told how to do my job etc, so it will require a lot from me to reset myself to a blank page and essentially do it all over again, be a junior again, with blank stare and sweaty pits.. I can do it, I just know I can

[truckflyer]

It's not so much of being told how to do your job, rather the conditions you are made to work under by management, pay conditions, hours, rostering, commuting etc. Generally TC's that are not fit for purpose.

Like myself, I am currently very happy with the company I work for, but I can not survive alone on the money I am being paid for this job as an FO. I know if I stick it out, I will get where I want to be eventually, so we will see, if I am willing to sacrifice living and lifestyle, for the sake of a job that clearly underpays me.
I am lucky, because I still have options, and that is the best tips to all, keep options.

[class2ldn]

Class2ldn, forgive me, but you'll probably be earning a lot more now in your current job (with potential to earn more given your age) than you will as a pilot, so do think very carefully before making the jump, particularly with no g'teed job at the end of it. There's quite a lot on here about the comparison between pilot and train driver jobs if you can find it - I have limited understanding of what's involved in being a driver, but one thing I'm pretty sure of is you don't have to pay for your training and job is a lot more 'protected' and secure than a pilot's - and you'll probably see a lot more of your family too. I'm sure there are some guys who'd gladly make the switch the other way given half the chance!

HW

Actually I know some who have but I guess different things suit different people.
I'd only do it modular as I could work it around my current job.
My issue is a) My age and b) My high school grades. No gcses but equivalents to 4 but that's it. Did email ctc to get an idea on what I'd actually need for them or whether they would count towards it but they couldn't be bothered to reply.
It's time like this I wish I'd actually taken the time to put the work in at school and obviously time isn't really on my side. Can't do a full time course to get the gcses obviously so may look at some evening courses while I sort out my ppl.
It's funny because all the things I hated at school like science and maths I quite enjoy now just don't have the qualifications to back it up.
As for the money I normally earn around 2600 after tax with no overtime but we only do a 35 hour week. No sundays either.
If we work about 5 days overtime then we can get about 3500-4k. We get a £50 bonus for each rest day we work.
It is a good secure job but the railways are not what they used to be i guess in the same way the airlines have changed.

[truckflyer]

Yes you will be lucky to earning much more then £2500 a month for the first 10 years. No overtime pay, no extra pay to work in nights or holidays, no summer holidays, no holidays at all except when you are in low peak season.

Your high school grades are not very important, the maths is not very complicated, it's not really difficult the theory part, just time consuming.

Overtime does not exist, take you pay, and you will work as much as they need you for this month. 150 - 250 hours a month.

[class2ldn]

For me it's not really about the money.
Me and my partner live just outside of gatwick in crawley. We both do shift work and she does stopover work in her job anyway.
You say the math isn't important or the grades but I don't know many airlines willing to take people on without at least 5 a-c grades. Ctc won't. Not much point me doing all the stuff and then every airline turning around saying sorry you don't meet the minimum requirements.
For me I'd be happy on about 45k. Yes Id like to earn more but I'm not really a big spender.
We've just bought a house and the mortgage is about 1100 a month.
That's our biggest outlay and in 2 years that will drop when we remortgage.
I'd be quite happy at one of the smaller airlines but I couldn't afford to give up this job so my only option is modular.

[Happy Wanderer]

Reality check needed there class2ldn - "For me I'd be happy on about 45k" - which 'smaller airline' do you think pays anywhere near that?? Assuming you got an airline job, you'd typically be starting on around £23k as an FO - maybe more, but possibly even less. You could do what I did and instruct, but unless you're lucky enough to get a job at a commercial ATO, it'll be a case of earning enough to put meat on the table once a week, seriously. I'm not trying to put you off, but you may need to realign your expectations just a little. Anyone entering the profession to earn good money is quite frankly barking up the wrong tree.

HW

[truckflyer]

class2ldn - I never seen any airline ask me for my math skills, yes you sometimes get tested for selection for BA etc., but this is rather the exception then the rule.

Of course you need to have a basic grasp of BASIC maths, but you certainly do not need to be a maths or science genius to pass ATPL's or become a pilot.

Another thing, nothing is certain that you get a job in your region of choice, your own country even, suddenly you need to start consider commuting, yes there are MANY jobs out there, for guys with some experience, but coming new into the business, well beggars cant be choosers!

I know guys getting their first job, 1500 Euros a month (£1150), increasing to 2500 Euros a month after around 2 years. Btw of this you have to pay UK tax if you still living / resident of the UK.

CTC is of course an option, not cheap, and you can never be sure what will happen by the time you finish your training, with £150.000 training debts, and no job offers except as I mentioned above. On top of the training with CTC, you will have to pay for your TR, as this is not normally included.

If you have this cash £150.000 stashed away somewhere, then I would say no problem, go for it, yet after this getting a job is still a lottery. I would say odds are around 30% of getting a job within 5 years after concluding training.

Modular will be slightly cheaper, I am not sure of exact figures, but I would guess if you start from Zero hours, incl. TR, you would probably need around £90.000 going Modular.

I would recommend doing modular over around 3 -4 years, enjoy flying, and see what happens. Instructing is not a bad option to keep you on top of things, it will not get you a job that easy anymore, but you will probably have loads of fun.

[class2ldn]

Thanks for that.
In regards to money if I could live on 23k Id be happy to take that.
I'm not from a wealthy background so to me 45k is more then I expected to be earning. All my previous jobs were around 25k anyway. That's why I realise until my mortgage is paid off a bit I couldnt commit to it full time anyway but I'm worried that I may be nearer 40 when Im finally in a position to approach airlines and I'm not sure how they look at people coming in at that age.

[Airlinepilot1687]

Hi I noticed some people on this thread said they already had a mortgage prior to beginning an integrated course. Do you mind me asking how you went about securing funding on an integrated course when you already hold a mortgage? I am 28 and a PPL holder but considering this route and just looking at my options?

Thanks in advance

[Happy Wanderer]

I was a (very) late starter and fortunately paid off my mortgage around the time I started out, but having worked for ATOs you do see a range of funding options. The big disadvantage of going down the integrated route is you will of course have to fund the c£100k training costs up front, something you will never do as a modular 'pay-as-you-fly' student. Type-rating costs are generally in addition to what you'll have paid to get a frozen ATPL. As for Integrated funding options, the most popular source is the 'bank of Mum & Dad' (who themselves often end up taking out a 2nd mortgage where the student isn't a homeowner), 2nd mortgages where the student IS a homeowner, inheritances and the like. As an integrated course is full-time, you're unable to work part-time to fund your flight training. The one or two finance house schemes that are available generally don't cover the full cost of an integrated programme. All these are valid reasons why the modular route is the most popular option if funding your training is likely to be a problem.
Hope this helps.

HW

[truckflyer]

I know many guys who have done modular, who have got jobs now, equally many who don't have jobs now.

So its a bit of a lottery. If funds are not unlimited, I would do it modular, at a "small but busy" flight school, if in early 30's, I would do the FIC and try to do instructing with the flight school.
This way you build experience, enjoy flying without enormous cost, and gain great experience.

I got job before my CPL instructor, however he got my job a few years later, so it worked out in the end, but very random. Depending where you live in the country, there are various options for this route.

But lets not be naive and sugar coat the reality, getting a job either 30 or 40 with little experience is not easy, the odds are against you regardless, so if you happy with that prospect its just to go for it.

[scavenger69]

Hi everyone.

I was thinking on giving it another shot.
Im 30. I hold a South American ICAO PPL with 500hr SE, class 1 medical, UE passport and whatnot. Im back in Europe now, looking for a good school to help me with the conversion of the PPL and the CPL+IR+ME training and ATPL theory. What would you recommend? I dont have a lot of cash, just enough to fly a few hours, buy a few books and sit for the exams. While this is a very hard industry to get into, I want to give it another shot. What do you think?

[RedBullGaveMeWings]

I am going to quote what I told you in the other thread: http://www.pprune.org/professional-pilot-training-includes-ground-studies/521590-my-dream-advice-please-collective-thread-8.html#post9308050

You don't need to convert your ICAO PPL to obtain an EASA CPL and ME/IR as far as I know.
You can start studying for your ATPL's immediately and then you could attend a CPL-ME/IR right after that.

Look at Bartolini Air in Poland. They're very good. Contact Bartho Blom, he is very useful.

[Train2Plane]

Another Train Driver here at the age of 28. Dream has been to always fly commercially for the airlines ever since I could understand my own imagination. I have tried to shake the 'bug' but to no avail and to me, it is a question of regret; what would you regret more....
Having gone for the dream and it not working out or:
Never having gone for the dream and one day you look back and wondered why you never did when you could.
I have an expired PPL together with night, 33 hours PIC and Module 1 of BGS purchased. All of this is just sat on hold waiting to be completed and compete it I will.
I have had many a word with myself in many mirrors and for me, it is now or never. I have no commitments and my job allows me plenty of time to complete the required elements.
So from here on in, I will give it 100% and I will succeed.

[sanay121]

Hi guys,

Almost same story here. I am a hotelier at the age of 32 and would like to start my training by the age of 33. Would be able to get info or suggestion on some good& economical school based in Canada.

Approximately how much would it cost.

Regards

Sanay

[Greenlights]

after 30 y/o it is nearly too late.
Nowadays, airlines hire teenagers (18/19y/o) to accept poor conditions, but they can wear rayban and put a pic on Facebook,
the airlines press them like a lemon juice, until dry and sick (burnout, depression etc), finally they hire the next ones for a new contract with lower TCs.
good luck though

[gear up job]

This is the most silly response i have read so far this yr @ pprune. Greenlights if you got nothing to contribute about just keep quite!

sanay121 and Train2Plane my in-law finished their training @ 35yrs. 4 yrs later last yr got employed to one of the M.E carriers. Nothing is impossible BUT it will need hard work and the RIGHT attitude. All the best to all!

[wheel lock]

Hey Train2Plane, it's been a good few years but I was once in your "boat", or at least on your train! I was 30 years old, I had a steady job in the non-flying area of aviation, good pay, good benefits, 6 weeks holidays a year and full medical and dental coverage. I also had a two year old child and another on the way, almost everyone I worked with said I was absolutely crazy to try and become a pilot.
I won't prattle on about the hours, time, money and blood that I invested in training because I'm sure you know what it will entail. I applied to many a company and was rejected at every turn, "you don't have enough hours, get some hours and then come see us", was what I heard over and over! I picked four companies that I wanted to work for, the first one, being my priority, got the brunt of my efforts. I flew to the city where they were based, three times, to see the Chief Pilot. The pit bull at reception would have none of it but I persisted and finally got to see him! After that I emailed him every week for 6 months solid.
Just over one year later, I received a phone call from him, offering me a job. The job was only for three months and then after that I would be made redundant. "Was I still interested", he asked? I immediately said yes! Then proceeded to tell my wife that I was quitting my regular job and was hired as a pilot and in 3 months time I would be let go and I had absolutely no idea how we were going to survive!
Suffice to say that the job went much longer than three months and I was not let go. Many years later I now sit in the left seat of a 777. If I had listened to everyone that said I was nuts and was too scared to take a leap of faith, I would not be where I am today. It was not an easy journey but it was well worth it and I am still as happy today as I was when I got my first job. Aviation has changed a lot over the years but those with a passion to fly will still do it. There will be many who will say you're crazy, it's up to you to decided what you want to do.

Good luck in your endeavors!,

WL

[midiman]

I was in the same dilemma around 7 years ago. I was going to take the leap to become a Pilot, or get on the property ladder.


Either option was going to cost around £110K.


Buying a house would have given me somewhere to live and potentially see my money go up in value.


On the other hand, obtaining a fATPL for the same amount of money would have only guaranteed a huge amount of debt. Simply because you can’t sell your fATPL if you get into trouble and you can’t afford to be sitting around without a job.


Then there is another dilemma, who is say that you are going to like the job? You can’t chop or change and you would be at the airlines mercy. So you’re are probably going to be put on minimal pay, made to do unsociable hours, and posted to the furthest reaches of the world. You will be a slave to the sky.


For example, I remember being on a flight to Egypt and thinking that our plane has already been delayed by two hours. So what must the crews day be like?
This how is must have panned out.


They arrived to work on time.
Prepared the aircraft.
Sat at the gate waiting for departure.
Flew outbound for 5hrs.
Then they told us that they were preparing for a quick turnaround back to Gatwick.
So lets say their day comprised of a 12hr shift in a cramped A320.

I love aircraft and that burning desire to fly will never leave. But you have to stop and say to yourself, is it really worth it?


Since I made the decision to purchase my property it has nearly doubled in value, and I’ve also improved my career prospects. I’m now an IT Consultant, and 6 months away from becoming a qualified Plumber.


It hurts, but at the age of 40 I’ve now got a property that’s nearly paid for, a decent job, a life, and a second career option that comes with unlimited earning potential. All for the same price as a fATPL.


I heard that Airlines used to approach FTOs to pickup PPL Instructors, or even Crop Dusters. That's how my friend managed to get his first job with a low cost carrier, and now he's a 777 Cpt for Qatar.


Paying to fly and the thought of eroding T&Cs make me think that you might be safer on the ground.


NB: To the Train Drivers on here.
I wouldn't even contemplate leaving my job if I was taking home £2700 per month in my standard hours, or have the chance of clearing £3500+ with overtime.


It's a bit like the Tube Drivers, they love to complain about their £55K plus salary.
Try looking at what an A320 Captain gets paid when you get home at your regular time. :ok:

[PVCAKES3728]

Hi everyone.

I will be 50 years old in a few weeks, and I want to go for my Aerospace (Commercial Pilot) degree at Middle Tennessee State University. I want to be a commercial pilot. If I'm too old for commercial pilot, I will be happy to be a corporate pilot.

I was mislead YEARS ago. I was told by someone that I trust with my LIFE...my father...when I was about 12...that you must go into the military to be a pilot. I said, "Ok cool! I can do that!" He said, "You don't want to do that." I asked, "Why?" He said, "Because you'll go in a woman, but you'll come out a man." I was done! := As a kid, that's all I needed to hear, and I didn't pursue it...until recently.

In his defense, he's "old school". Most of that generation of men did not and do not believe in women in the military. I forgive him. I just wish I had gone into the Navy anyway. :ugh: I totally trusted what he said, and did not do my own research...until now. I accept total responsibility for this. My fault.

Now that you have read this novel, is it too late for me? I really do want it...more than anything. If I had my way, I want to fly for either UPS or FedEx for the rest of my career.

[midiman]

I wouldn't say that you are too old to start learning to fly.


But, you might be too old in standing a chance of gaining employment with an Airline.


I don't know how the Airlines select candidates. Providing that you comply with their criteria. I don't think that the Airlines should be allowed to see your age on application, or even require to see it, unless they suspect that you are trying to deceive them etc...


For example, when I was 38, I had to grovel to a course leader to get onan Evening Course at College. He asked me hold I was, it made me feel humiliated and I didn't see any relevance to it!!! Especially when there were other older Students on the course.


I would like to see him again, so that I can tell him that what he was implying was wrong!! Because all of us Mature Students, have achieved much better grades than the younger ones.


So what does that tell you?


IMO you should based on merit and not viewed as a statistic. I'd rather employ someone that can bring more than flight experience to the cockpit, and most 20 year olds don't have that.


Sadly, I can’t help you with gaining employment. But I would say go for it, if you can afford to pay for it. And even if you don’t get to use it, you have still achieved something.


Best of luck.

[Northern Highflyer]

The modular route might be cheaper, and a good option for those that can afford the time. But not necessarily for those that are on the cusp of potentially being too old for employment. i.e. Late 30's and early 40's.

On what grounds are people in their late 30's and early 40's potentially too old for employment ? I get what you are saying but I think this kind of statement doesn't help anyone, and is the mindset we should be getting away from. Imagine if someone said something similar in relation to race or sex, there would be an uproar. If you have the relevant licences and medical I don't see why anyone should be deemed too old for employment as a pilot.

Yes we all know it happens in the aviation industry, where age discrimination can be easily dressed up as some other reason not to employ someone, hours, experience, etc. I admit I have a vested interest here in that I am one of those older pilots trying to get a foot in the door, seeing all those young guns around me lining up interviews while I am left on the employment shelf. It's clear the only difference is age in many cases, and it is very frustrating. I've heard learning ability often quoted as a reason but there are many mature students completing degrees and other qualifications all the time. Each individuals ability to learn is differerent, and airlines should recognize this. Alas, while there is a glut of young low houred pilots out there, things won't change.

[midiman]

Sorry maybe I didn't word that too well.


You are not too old to start learning to fly in your 30's and 40's, or too old for employment. Unless, you are being viewed through the eyes of the majority of Airlines.


I can't see what they have to lose by employing older Pilots?


Do you really think the passengers care about the crews age?


Imagine :

"OMG, Why was that 45 year old F/O, allowed to pefrom the emergency landing that brought us all back safely? I wanted someone much younger than that :D"

[bafanguy]

PVCAKES3728,

Tried to PM but couldn't.

Since you're at an important decision point, if you haven't done it by now, you might try a more US-centric av website. Your issue has been discussed by others too. Try this one...generally civilized (I have no association with them):

Changing Careers | Jetcareers (http://forums.jetcareers.com/forums/changing-careers.10/)

Best of luck to you.

[Northern Highflyer]

"OMG, Why was that 45 year old F/O, allowed to pefrom the emergency landing that brought us all back safely? I wanted someone much younger than that "

Luckily, I look much younger than my age :}

[Gretsey]

Hi guys

I am 31 yrs old and always wanted to be a pilot. Am I too late to pursue this dream??

[Wrist Watch]

All other variables favourable - the answer is no.

Reading this thread can be of immense help.

[jamesgrainge]

Lol. Short and to the point :hmm:

[Reverserbucket]

I can't see what they have to lose by employing older Pilots?
An initial type rating is challenging and needs to be completed within a finite timescale to a better than acceptable standard - if an employer is prepared to bond you for this, they require good odds that you will succeed in their timescale and to their standards. Youth presents lower training risks.

Younger employees are easier to indoctrinate, absorb information faster, are more mobile and are less likely to leave as seniority grows; many BA pilots will have spent their entire working lives there by the time they retire.
If you have the relevant licences and medical I don't see why anyone should be deemed too old for employment as a pilot.
Because relevant experience is always measured commensurate to age - it's not as simple as just meeting the certification minima to qualify unless you are at the start of your career and you are young.
Do you really think the passengers care about the crews age?

Yes, I think they do. I have heard comments concerning the youthfulness of both cockpit crew members and this is directly related to a layperson's perception of my earlier point about age being commensurate with experience. Employing older pilots however, with little experience would hardly compensate.

[bafanguy]

Reverserbucket,

"...many BA pilots will have spent their entire working lives there by the time they retire."

A worthy goal, is it not ?

[Reverserbucket]

bafanguy

It is, although of course few companies offer the prospect of an entire career with one employer. I am in favour of the suggestion that age should be no barrier and I know from experience that the US is somewhat different to other parts of the world in this regard, however in Europe, for some of the reasons stated, recruitment for that first job tends to favour the young.

[bafanguy]

Reverserbucket,

There's little "logic" to airline hiring mentality. Here in the States, I'd bet money seats WILL be filled and age will not be a barrier.

In fact, the company I worked for has been hiring people in their mid-ish 40s for some time now (even back when 60 was mandatory retirement age). There was a time here when 28 was too old. Back around the early 90s I worked with a new FO retired from the USAF. He was told he was too old at 31 but...magically, at 41 he no longer was !!

Seats WILL be filled !!!

[Reverserbucket]

bafanguy

I agree - I know guys in their late 40's and early 50's with no jet or T/P experience being hired by the regionals - they are marketable right now because they have 1500hrs either as CFI's or by other means. Europe is quite different though with no minimum hours requirement and an endless supply of young (non-sponsored or tagged) flight school graduates who are prepared to self-fund type rating courses (and line experience) at higher than market cost in order to secure a job. This in addition to those fortunate enough to find work where they are only bonded for training costs and where the employer selects those that present the lowest training risk for the reasons described earlier.

The other issue is scale - the US has an enormous aviation industry by comparison to Europe and whereas I have no doubt either that seats will be filled out of necessity, that level of demand will never be reached in Europe.

[bafanguy]

Reverserbucket,

Yes, somewhat different circumstances indeed.

[Prophead]

I just don't get it.

All these people with good jobs that have dreamed of flying since they were 6 months old etc. etc.

Are you all qualified PPL's with an IR or at least IMC?

If not why not? If you dreamed of flying all your life then why are you only interested in throwing £100k+ at some airline scheme?

I wanted to fly since I was quite young, I was at the flying club when I was about 12 pestering them for info on learning to fly. I spent every spare bit of cash getting my PPL and then extra licences and flying all over.

How can you have always dreamed of flying, have a good job yet never had a PPL?

For those of you who do or even those who are thinking of training, get a PPL. Do your ATPL whilst enjoying flying as many different types as possible and get your IR. All these will be as much use flying for fun as they will commercially so not money wasted get a share in something and do that flying you always dreamed of. You may only have 1 or 2 passengers instead of loads of fare paying ones but who cares?.

If you still want to fly for a living after that then add a CPL (cheap if you already hold an IR) and an MCC then your ready to start sending out CV's. I tell you now you will make more contacts during your PPL flying than you ever will at some pilot training seminar. If you don't get a job who cares? All you have wasted is the CPL and MCC fee which is under £10k. You still have your current job and the ability to fly all over the world IFR in a shared aircraft which is what you have wanted to do all your life.

Of course, if its some kind of uniform fetish you have rather than a desire to actually fly you can always but some bars on ebay.

[Dogfactory]

The answer is blowing in the windshear: sometimes dreams don't match with the wallet. Which is of course the main reason why flightschools are lacking students.

[Parson]

Prophead - well put.

The sad reality is that, particularly with the MPL, we are getting right hand seats increasingly occupied by automatons with little real flying experience in the real world. Sure, they can operate a medium sized jet and fly it within acceptable limits and to company SOPs. And good luck to them - many will have long, successful careers.

But have they ever been out on their own in the middle of nowhere and had a rough running engine? Ever been lost, I mean temporarily unsure of position, with the weather closing in? Scud running over the sea looking for a break in the clouds? Felt a bit twitchy when their lookout wasn't quite what it should be?

None of the above matters in the cosseted world of airline flying.....well, until that one time when the holes in the cheese line up. If only the travelling public had half a clue.

[BravoSierraKilo]

So I have started on the road to becoming an Airline Pilot. Currently training with the National Flight Centre in Weston Airport, Lucan. Dublin. Ireland
I have a few questions!!

1) I am 31 this June 20th…I am giving myself 3 years to get to the magical ATPL Frozen……Am I mad starting at my age?

2) I am taking the modular route as I am working to fund my training…. some Airline prefer pilots who have gone through the integrated course, however I would class modular pilots as having a slight advantage as the learning is slower so in theory you learn more as it has time to sink in…correct?? If a modular pilot applies to an airline that states integrated only, will the application simply be ignored?

3) In regards to hour building, will it have to be done with a school / club? I have access to a friend’s Cessna 150 and I plan to travel around Europe once my PPL is completed. However, if flying a friend’s aircraft how can my hours be verified or can they?

4) I will be looking at applying to Aer Lingus or Ryanair… (Ryanair preferred as I prefer the Boeing yoke to the Airbus side stick) the type rating in Ireland is approx. €30,000 Euros which the airline gladly accepts then you live on bread and water for 6 months until you get the 3rd stripe and they start paying you! My question is I have been told Ryanair have started bonding scheme where the new pilot will sign up for X amount of years and they take the 30k from you wages?

Thanks for your time, any other hints / tips would be greatly appreciated

[shortfinals34]

In particular to the UK how old too old to have a realistic chance of making it as an airline pilot?.With anti-age discrimination laws now in place is there no such thing as "too old" or do the airlines find ways around it?
Cheers.

[SeventhHeaven]

My personal 2 cts.

1. No you're not too old. Some airlines clearly prefer younger candidates, others don't care. In the corporate flying world they actually prefer older chaps.

2. Nobody cares about the theory. You will not be better or worse educated as a modular. The theory is too easy to be considered impressive so everybody gets 90+% average these days (especially with the QB)

2. Yes, your application will be binned instantly when you apply to an integrated only position. And quite a few airlines have CTC/FTE/ etc as preferred integrated suppliers. There are, it seems to me, less chances as a modular student to get into the big jets, but it is not impossible at all.

3. Nobody cares about your hour building. Just make sure for yourself, that you don't waste the hours flying circles around your hometown but actually learn something. Nobody checks your logbook for signatures. The CAA can check it if they want to by auditing your friend's airplane log if they desire.

4. Don't know. This bonding story was floating around when I started my training 5 years ago. Might be happening, might not? That said, aer lingus is by FAR the better employer (really, world of difference) so who gives a crap that they fly airbus? You're on auto pilot anyway so you might as well be comfortable.

As a modular student myself, I would like to add the following. I am currently only flying SEP airplanes around as a part time job in the weekend, trying to scrounge up a few hours here and there to hopefully move on eventually. I have friends that got a bonded TR on a big jet, others that paid their own, and others that paid for TR and line and are now actually employed somewhere else. A few are still instructing, and a single one never got a job and moved on with his life after a lot of heartache. What I want to say is that nobody knows what will happen in your career, and nobody in aviation is going to give a crap and go out of their way to hire you. In the end, it all depends on your perseverance and unfortunately quite a bit of luck/timing.

[Vc10Tail]

Is the scheme open to non EU citizens?

[Union Jack]

Heading for that big jet in the sky

An somewhat ambiguous choice of words for someone who is just starting.....:hmm:

[Martin_123]

BSK, I think your 3 questions have already been answered, all I can add - I'm also in the same age group doing my ATPLs at the moment. When I did my first ATPL ground-school recently most people were around our age, very few below 25, good few in their 40ties.. I'd say age shouldn't be an issue.

What could be an issue thou is sounds like you're looking at airlines close to home and dare I say, even sound to be a bit picky about machines you're willing to fly. That's a good long term ambition, but to kick your career off your chances of staying in Ireland are extremely small. Aer Lingus very rarely do direct entry recruitment for low hour cadets (and when they do, every CV from Europe lands on their desks). It practically never happens. Last year we saw one recruitment drive which was first in god know how many years..

Ryanair on the other hand wont keep you in Ireland. Low hour cadets start in Poland, South Italy and other places where no-one want's to work due to difficulty for a foreigner to settle down with a family

I don't want to burst your bubble and who knows, things can work out for you just the way you have planned, but I personally am prepared mentally and physically to leave everything behind, fly whatever, live wherever just to get that first gig. Ryanair job in Wroclaw will feel like a gift :) This attitude should make things easier for me, or so I hope

[BravoSierraKilo]

@ Union Jack ambiguous open to more than one interpretation; not having one obvious meaning!

If i do not believe I will get to that big jet then I may give up now :ok:


Thanks for the reply's. I am looking close to home and do have my choice of aircraft, however if and when the time comes I will be only to happy to take a position any where on any aircraft!


Currently I am looking at buying a C150 next year for hour building. I would like to travel to the UK and mainland Eurpoe so I am not sure if the 150 would be the best option...maybe a C172 or PA28

[Marlon Brando]

There's no way you will get a job close to home and on your choice of aircraft !!

If you're one of the lucky guys, you will spend a few years in western europe or asia on a :mad: rodster.
If you're not prepared for that, don't do it...

I wish you all the best, but it's a long way to the top if you wanna rock'n roll

[cavok_flyer]

50 years old, just finished ATPL(A) modular http://cdn.pprune.org/images/smilies/thumbs.gif taking 3 years minus 5 days. I passed my final 3 exams last week in Braunschweig, Germanyhttp://cdn.pprune.org/images/smilies/smile.gif. Now onto IFR, CPL, MEP, and finally FI(A). It was reassuring to see that the LBA has slackened off in the fill-in-the-blank questions over the last 18 months. I only had maybe 2 in Flight Planning and none in PoF.

[whistling turtle]

I was reading this thread and I will just make a few general observations from my experience so far which I hope people looking to get into the industry will bear in mind.

I was working as an instructor for 5 years and more recently became an FO with an A320 operator(not PTF btw) at age 31.
Basically age won't be an issue if you have the right connections, in fact getting a good career in flying won't be too much of an issue if you have the right connections.

However if you don't have the right connections(like me) then life becomes a lot harder both in trying to break into this super-competitive industry and also when trying to progress within the industry. It is quite unfair but this is the reality.

If you don't have connections and are say over 40 then I think one has to have a long hard look at the situation. You will probably find work as a flight instructor if you are ok but it is hard work - more so than airline flying in my opinion - and I am someone who is passionate about instructing. Also it dosen't pay well unless you are instructing multi engine IR at a big school which usually takes a few years to achieve - and even then it's subject to the schools level of student turnover etc.

If you don't want to go down the instructing work then you might get something with parra-dropping or aerial photography but these also while fun don't pay much and can call for long hours.

Otherwise one has to look to going to Africa or Indonesia in the hopes of building their way up in GA there to eventually flying something like a turbine single cessna caravan. These eventually lead to a reasonable salary but you are very far away from home and eventually most want to return to their roots.

All of the above is very interesting flying and great if you are in your twenties or even thirties if you are single and enjoy this type of flying. But financially it's very hard. Particularly if you have a family.

Also say you do get lucky like me and get to fly an airliner - the pay is very good but you have to factor in the time spent away from home. It can be a big big problem if you have a family or even just a partner. There is a price to be paid for having a job like this so it won't suit everyone.

So I don't want to sound overly negative - The point I'm really trying to make is age is not a huge factor if you are happy to just have a flying job, but not necessarily a well paid jet airliner job.

I really love flying and it's all I've ever really wanted to do. However if I didn't love flying so much and know what I know now then I wouldn't go near professional aviation with a barge-pole....just something to bear in mind.

[lsililai]

I like your 2nd last paragraph..I am also doing the same. I am not looking at big paypacket, i just want to fly...fly..and that all i want.

[rosiew16]

It doesn't have to cost £100k to train, only £60-70k if you choose the right flying school and not one of the big corps trying to take your buck. An article looked at this to really look at the cost...

Where your money goes - the true cost of pilot training - Pilot Career News (http://www.pilotcareernews.com/where-your-money-goes-the-true-cost-of-pilot-training/)

Start flying at any age - its never too late to live the dream! It only takes 16 months to qualify if you really give it your all so what are you waiting for??

[Basil Fawlty1]

Greetings all - any and all feedback welcome....

So the bad news is I'm planning to start flight training having just turned 41. I can almost hear the sniggers at the back. However, as we older folks tend to cling onto the fact, age can have its advantages in certain situations. I've already built a career (IT contractor) and am financially set without any kids, mortgage free and a supportive wife with a good salary herself. Any flight training will be paid out of savings without impacting our quality of life.

I'm under no illusions and recognise my chances of success are slim, so I plan to pursue this first and foremost to fulfill my love of aviation and finish off the PPL I started 20+ years ago. If that is all I achieve having learnt to fly safely with a new hobby then I'll be a happy man. However, I do have one eye on the dream of flying professionally - even this is just air taxis/sightseeing/instructing/or getting really lucky and flying turboprops somewhere. As such I want to give myself the best chance of success should I find I have the ability/desire to keep learning and improving all the way up to CPL/ME/IR.

As long as everything goes ok with the PPL, I'll be looking to buy a share in a 172 (or similar) then get out and try and develop my skills, have some fun & build hours to see where it takes me. I'll be starting the training early next year when my current contract (in the IT dept of a certain middle eastern airline) comes to an end and am taking a two year sabbatical to indulge myself and pursue this. So at the end of this two year period I'll hopefully have my frozen ATPL, a few hundred hours (95% on a SEP) and most importantly a shed-load of fun.

I'd love to hear any advice from people who have done similar. Thanks for taking the time to read and safe flying everyone.

[magicmick]

Hi Bas

A few words of advice, most is common sense and will have probably already occurred to you:

Do not burn your bridges with your current IT career, you may have the opportunity to make a few quid doing some ad-hoc work while you are training and after training you might be grateful of the income while you are looking for a flying job.

The secret to finding that elusive first flying job is networking, I note that you are currently working on a contract for a ME airline, do your best to get to know some of the pilots, maybe sorting out some IT tech issues for them and stay in touch with them while you are training. The airline that you work for might not take on freshly qualified people but the pilots might hear of opportunities elsewhere for newly qualified pilots.

If you have friends or family who fly commercially, make sure that you stay close to them.

When you’re training try to enhance your network amongst other trainees and instructors within the school, any one of them might go on to fly commercially and could help you get into your first job. All these contacts will be invaluable to you.

Try to do the CPL and MEIR at the same school, some airlines like to see continuity in training at least during CPL and MEIR (not so much for PPL and hours building).

If you can, do the hours building within the area that you intend doing your CPL training to get used to the area and the visual landmarks around. I did my CPL with a chap who did all his hours building in Florida using an expensive GPS, his aircraft handling was great but his visual navigation was rubbish because he did not know the area well and he was not used to navigating without a GPS.

Do not believe any of the flying school marketing BS, they just want to separate you from your cash. I attended a very good modular school, they boast that all of their CPL/ MEIR students are now employed as pilots, which is rubbish as myself and the bloke that I was paired up with for CPL and another bloke that I was paired up with for MEIR are not working as commercial pilots.

Good luck with your PPL and taking it further if that is what you decide to do.

[FANS]

Given your positive financial situation, why not join up with a CTC etc?

[Basil Fawlty1]

Thanks Mick - some very good advice there....

FANS - I'd have thought I'm a bit long in the tooth for one of those cadet schemes.

[magicmick]

Hello Again Bas

You're welcome to my ramblings, if any of them are useful to you then happy days!!

As far as I'm aware there are no age limits on the integrated courses whether you go in as a self financed wannabe or as a cadet linked to a particular airline and I have heard stories of people in their late 30s or early 40s getting accepted as cadets by airlines. I suppose if you can pass the medical and the selection process then you're in.

Obviously the integrated courses with CTC, CAE, FTE etc are vastly more expensive than modular courses but the integrated schools have the valuable links direct into the airlines so you make your choice and pay your money, as always there are no guarantees of employment with modular, integrated or even the airline cadet schemes.

Good Luck

[FANS]

You need to look into, as I would have thought it's worth a look and could be a lower risk & quicker route to RHS of an A320

[inabw]

Hi guys.
What do you think about the real possibility to find my first job when I will 32 years old? Much old for the aviation field? At the moment I'm 26 and at the first step so the PPL. I'm from Europe (Italy). What do you think about the p2f? Thank you everyone that wanna sharing opinions. Have a nice day.

[Gentle Climb]

Hi Basil

I read your initial post with some interest. I was in a very similar position to your own. I started full time training age 39 at a well known integrated school and finished my training in 2010 just as recruitment slowed down stopped in aviation. It took me a long time to get a job and it is painful! You will need to be very resilient and there are many obstacles along the way that you will need to overcome. You are going to be up against it but clearly a commercial career is possible.
You will be up against some very switched on/capable/quick learning people who are attuned to learning volumes of information quickly. It came as a shock to me how much longer it took me to 'take things in'. You catch up and learn to learn but this can hit you hard.
Don't put too much emphasis on 'life experience'. My CP said that he translates that phrase as 'takes a bit longer to make the same decision and at 500mph time can be precious'.
Like it or not, the majority of employers will not look at you seriously...you will be viewed as a training risk.
I don't wish to put you off but you need to make a fully informed decision.

[Basil Fawlty1]

Hi Gentle Climb - many thanks for taking the time to respond and congratulations on successfully making the switch into the cockpit. I'd love to know if you're happy you made this move and are ultimately more fulfilled or has it just become 'another job' to you ?

I'm keen to get the warts and all view to ensure I make the right decision, so I appreciate your honesty...

[Basil Fawlty1]

Hi guys.
What do you think about the real possibility to find my first job when i will 32 years old? Much old for the aviation field? At the moment i'm 26 and i'm at the first step so the PPL. I'm from Europe (Italy). Abd what do you think about the p2f? Thank you everyone that wanna sharing opinions. Have a nice day.

Not at all you're still a pup, the perfect age for training I would suggest. If you get your first job at 32, you'd have 33 years flying ahead of you.

DON'T p2f !

[inabw]

]Thank you very much mate, i really appreciate your opinion.

[Capewell]

I'm forty years old in two months and I'm currently doing my ATPL training. I am on a sponsored scheme otherwise I would not have made the jump from my previous career. I don't think I am finding it any more difficult than the other lads on my course who are nearly half my age, and in fact being older gives you much more of an insight into important skills like teamwork and leadership.

I am realistic about my new career, its work... Its not meant to be fun all the time. You turn up, do as professional a job as you possibly can then you go home to your family and your other interests.

Despite the fact that the profession apparently isn't as good as it was in the 1970's I cant wait to get stuck into flying for an airline...

[inabw]

Where are you from Sir? In Italy there's the legend that if you don't pay to fly (type and hours) you never will find a job with fresh atpl (In Europe). So, after i saw you history i think you are very strong person, and i share everything about your opinions 'n about leadership and skills... Have a lucky life and career.

[Gentle Climb]

I wouldn't go so far as to say that it becomes just 'another job' but the initial novelty and excitement does fade fairly quickly. Getting out of bed at midnight to fly overnight in to a CAT C airfield at the end of the second sector loses it's glamour rapidly.
However, the enjoyment of seeing and feeling improvement and progression in all of the different facets of flying an aircraft is very rewarding. It's a cliché but climbing above clouds in to the sunshine on a miserable rainy day still makes me smile, but not as much as a CDA with a landing in the right place at the right speed...in one of our aircraft with no vnav capacity.
It is a very different career from my other business but I enjoy that a lot more now that I get away from it regularly.
You should also not underestimate the impact upon your family. Suddenly, I am not available...with 2 days notice I can be away for two weeks. Can you deal with that...can they?

[inabw]

Wow Sir, i really hope to realize my dream one day; not for the glamorous side, but specially for every moment like your had descript in your post...the reality is very different from 70's but the love for this field never change. Thank you for sharing with everybody us.

[Marlon Brando]

I'm 42, started PPL at 38, frozen ATPL at 40, modular in UK

I've been working as a copilot in a medium-heavy bizjet for 5 months now. Looked for a job for 2 looooong years, despite my strong connections in the corporate aviation industry from my previous job. Then i got the dream job...good money, 6 months off a year, Europe, great plane.
But I start to understand now why they give us that much money just to fly a plane.
I'm now half a pilot, half a father, and what's left is for my wife.
it's not exactly what I was expecting... I love the job, the flying is great, but I underestimated the negative impact on my family/couple life, it's really much more difficult than I thought, not sur your (my?) couple will survive that, we never think about it while on training.

I got this job because of my connections, otherwise I would probably still be unemployed. If you're more than 35, you can forget the airlines I think.
About my classmate, 5 young guys are at ryanair, one old FI, one old P2F, and me.

[Ax82]

Hi everybody.
I also would like to share my current situation with all of you.
Actually, airplanes and blue skies are my big passion ever, and I really would like to become a professional pilot, but due to several issues up to now I could not fulfill my dream. I took different path from my young age : I got my master degree in business and during my working experience I have changed some kind of jobs. Now I'm working in the sales and marketing field for a multinational company, but I feel some " empty"in myself and I really would like to think a change in my life.
I'm not married and I don't have any kids. I could have the possibility to join an integrated course and trying to get the ATPL frozen in something like 15 months.
I don't need to make any mortage for finance my training.
I got my PPL (A) a couple of years ago, but considering my age (34years old) I think that the only way to get the licenses in short time is to apply in an integrated course and dedicate 100% of my time to this. Frankly for me it is not reasonable thinking to proceed with a modular route while I'm continuing working. My job absorb a tremendous quantity of time and a energy and personally I' m really not able to successfully conduct Both!
i don't want to be boring for anybody, but the question is always the same... do you think that if I take this decision, at the age of 36 when I get the licenses, is still possible to get a job or it is just a dream?
Honestly I'm open to move and to be relocated all over the world..that' s is not a problem. What I'm warried is to spend 70k€ without get any kind of possibility to work.
Another question, someone of you know the AFTA in cork or the GAIR in Portugal? Do you have any feedback on these?

[FlyNorth24]

I am in a pretty much similar situation, and I will be starting my training during the spring next year, so I would say that we are not old. Regarding the family... well, it's not easy, and I am not happy about it, but luckily for me, she is supporting me.
Good luck! :)

[Dusker]

Great Posts, rich information. At age 41, single, I'm looking into modular training in Europe via Wings Alliance, though I'm a US citizen and hear that may further count against for employment there due to EU residency preference first for jobs there(?) I am curious whether anyone has thoughts on best place in the world to secure employment for older, low hr. pilot who would have CPL, MEP, IR and maybe MCC

[Dusker]

I know in US min. requirement to be commercial pilot is 1500 hrs. heard in European countries it's more like 250, which it used to be here. That doesn't apply to ferry pilots though, not sure about corporate jet pilots.

[Ax82]

Does someone has any information, feedback or experience on wings alliance?

[jamesgrainge]

I have a friend who is around 40, struggling to get employed as more than an FI. And he is literally a perfect fit for an airline so make your own judgements, time is probably of the essence but not crucial.

[dboy]

I admire the people here, starting at older age and still have the drive to find that first job. I was also like that 13 years ago. But things has changed. Somehow as a prof. pilot you also see the otherside of the medal, novelty wears off. What i find the hardest part of the job is that you always have to be flexible to move away to another base, abroad, away from home.

Me, i dont have a family,nor children nor girlfriend. Some say it is a blessing for this job. Well I can assure you, it is not! If you are based abroad, (commuting is not always possible) away from friends, all alone on your apartment on your off days or coming back from your duty in an empty house, no one to talk to......i find it really hard and after all these years, i still can not get used to it. Than that flying job is not that important anymore.

So my advice: be careful what you wish for. If you can do some freelance flying close at home. Take it and enjoy.

[Sirbismuth]

Well, reading this thread, I must be positively insane!

I am 41, and in January am starting an 18-month journey that will see me emerge at the end with a CPL/ME with IR, type-rated on a 737-800, and a bunch of endorsements. I will be about halfway to 44 at the end of that. One regional airline has a cutoff of 35, and they don't even operate 737s.

The more insane part is the whack of cash I am throwing at it.

Someone talk me out of it, lol!

What is my end-game, I would be 100% happy if someone is paying me to fly, whether it's crop-dusters or 737s, or whatever is going. Yes, I will be competing with people who are younger than me, probably fitter than me, with more hours and ratings. So what, like I said, give me something to fly, some small change, and I will be happy.

Ok, in 18 months will be halfway to a degree in Aviation Management as well, so maybe they will let me polish the crop dusters or 737s as well?

Maybe I will p-off the experienced guys with the ratings and hours, as I will probably be willing to go in on a lower payscale, as I won't have the same hours or time on type as them?

MAYBE, I will regret this move I am making, who knows.

I won't know all of the above if I don't try at least. So, like I said, anyone want to try to talk me out of it, I am all ears?

[Dusker]

Marlon B,

Do you feel it'd be harder still for older low hr US citizen looking for job in Europe?
Thanks for comments

[Applesauce]

Hi everyone. I'm new here and considering looking into training.

I am 37, female, happily childfree (so no kids to consider in terms of costs or schedules), Australian.

Strangely enough I am a very nervous passenger but I don't have the same feeling about the cockpit. I don't know why, maybe it's a control thing. I love planes so much, I think they're like big, beautiful animals.

Obviously with training you start small, but I can't shake the desire to fly a commercial jet at some point. Anyway I'm still very new to the idea that this might be something I could do, so we'll see.

[andy148]

I don't believe your ever too old to start..

It looks like airlines are now starting to lift the age ban on applications, BAFPP, Gen easy jet, Virgin MPL all have no upper age limit. From talking to people and from looking at the Facebook profiles of the schools, it looks like there is a large spread of experience in new cadets. From someone on the BAFPP last year, he said there lots of people in their 40's applying.

But that said, you'll have to think long and hard about if it's worth it (financially and emotionally). But it looks like everyones on a flat playing field now. You've got to be in to to win it though.

[Paul H]

I'd like to pass on a little hope to most of you 'older' trainees.

I (as most of you) began my journey a very long time ago, perhaps at the age of 6 or 7 (mid 80's). Living in the flight path to an airport certainly helped me get by any slow days as a child, head always held high watching all the aircraft skim my parents house on an 8 mile final to Birmingham airport.
After approx 15 years of dreaming, I left college and headed off to Uni in 2001 aged 21 under the impression I would never be able to afford flight training. I finished in 2006 and thought "If I don't do it now, I never will".

After a long wait looking for work and moving across the country, twice, I started working for a delivery company near London and started my PPL in March 2008 aged 27. My PPL took me two and a half years to finish, with 67 hrs to my name, completing my skills test on Sept 2nd 2010 aged 29.

6 Months later I moved to Bournemouth and started my ATPL ground school at BCFT and finished in Nov 2011.

I spent the next 20 months working in dead end job, paying minimum wage (and sometimes, less), before eventually scraping every penny I had together to move back to Bournemouth and start my CPL/ME/IR in July 2013. I completed them all by Dec 2013, and was then very fortunate to get employed by my ATO as an instructor, where I've been ever since.

For a number of reasons, I didn't apply to any airlines until early this year aged 34, including a recommendation to flybe in April, which unfortunately was canceled at the 11th hour when CTC took over the recruitment.

I've since applied to a number of companies, from the channel islands, to Singapore. Although I was starting to become impatient, I was lucky enough to be offered two interviews in 24 hours at the end of Oct.

The first company I applied to required me to pass multiple online tests over 4 weeks before a phone interview (without warning). After the phone call I was offered an interview and assessment day with 29 other people over two days. The day consisted of a 90 minute face to face interview, group tests, and an advance compass test. In all it took 7 hours.
A few days later I was contacted and offered a sim assessment. After forking out a painful £700 for some practice at Virtual aviation in Cambridge, I headed to the training center and spent an hour or so in a sim (757) with two training captains and did what I was told.
3 days later I got a call telling me I had passed the assessment, but would need to wait a few more weeks for the final decision.

That magical call came yesterday morning. I've been offered a job flying 737s. The contract is in the post, and I start in January.

The total process has taking me almost 9 years from the my first flying lesson.

Stop dreaming and be active in your pursuits. Keep pushing, keep applying, keep current and be patient.
I have friends in their late 40s getting their first job.

Best of luck. Feel free to ask questions.

I am reluctant to mention my new employer, as I do not wish to drag them into an online conversation.

[Sleeve Wing]

First of all, Paul, sincere congratulations. You deserve what you’ve achieved

You really applied yourself, never gave up and now have made the opportunity to get on with the job you’ve always dreamt of.
Now you’ll need all of the qualities you’ve shown to continue and progress in the business.

There’ll be times when you get fed up of not enough time at home with the family.
There’ll be times when you’re so tired you’ll wonder which way is up.
You’ll get fed up of the times when, every 6 months, someone tries to pull your skills apart, tries to find fault with your flying and yet still you’ll get through with the same enthusiasm you’ve obviously always shown.
There’ll be times when you wonder if you’re really valued when, once again, salaries are frozen to “help the company get through the downturn”. You just tighten your financial belt and try and ride it as you’ve always done. It usually sorts itself in the end.
As you get older, these irritations will seem to be more important. Your medical will eventually show signs of letting you down and yet, still, you’ll get your head down and cope.
All these travails will reveal themselves in your coming career. Be ready for them and devise mechanisms and a health regime to carry you through.

Flying is the best career in the world; never forget that when it gets tough or when some sh*t tries to spoil it.
Plan your career from now on with these thoughts in mind and you'll have a wonderful, rewarding time ahead.

I’m just coming to the end after 57 years as a professional pilot. I don’t regret a minute of it.

[77w80du]

well, its been 2 years since my last post on here - www.pprune.org/interviews-jobs-sponsorship/504192-have-you-given-up-3.html#post8430036 (http://www.pprune.org/interviews-jobs-sponsorship/504192-have-you-given-up-3.html#post8430036)


I have done some PA31 freight work (on IFR ops) since.


am now seeking recommendations for pilot career guidance/counselling in Australia (plse P.M/inbox me)?
Am working away at ATPL subject but the problem will always remain how/where to get those first 1000hrs without an instructors rating and/or parachute drop rating?
I'm 36 and need to be realistic with career choices, funding your IFR renewals, Medicals from your savings, whilst living on GA income becomes unsustainable real quick!
I have gone back to doing Airline maintenance to cover ATPL theory, IFR renewals & Medicals. My LAME does not cover any GA aircraft types and it will remain this way, as this only leads to exploitation. I do not intend on leaving an Airline MRO employer to GA unless its for a pilot role. For now getting ATPL subjects done is an ongoing process & only when they are ALL passed, will I again seek flying work.


Thanks in advance for any suggestions/feedback.

[s4ex]

Perhaps I'm missing something, but it doesn't add up. Your doing PA31 freight work on IFR ops suggests that You have CPL/IR at least, if so, isn't it the requirement in Australia to have ATPL theory passed before qualifying for CPL/IR ?

[s4ex]

Ok, apologies. Should've looked into CASA regulations before questioning.
Now seem to become a little bit smarter :ooh:

[Jbaldwin95]

Hey guys, I'm 22 (graduated from uni in Summer 2016) and feel like all the guys and gals I'll be going up against during training will be 18 year olds (when they start training), how accurate is this view?

[Paul H]

Jbaldwin95, You'll have nothing to worry about.
I currently work as an ATPL theory instructor for a fairly moderate commercial training school.

In a class of 22, the youngest student we have is 17, we have a couple of 19 yr olds, the oldest is in his forties, and we have someone in their 50s joining in Jan. The average age is mid 20s with quite a few in their late twenties.

Genrally speaking I see the modular students are mid to late twenties and above, the integrated students are usually straight from school give or take a few years.

[Jbaldwin95]

Much appreciated PaulH, you have certainly put my mind at ease!

On an unrelated note, would you reccommend the commercial training school you teach at for the intergrated route and what kind of success rate do you guys have in terms of airline progression of cadets?

(feel free to decline answering).

[Paul H]

Our integrated course has been running for just shy of two years. As a result we've only had a handful of student finish the course, although we currently have12-15 inergrated students studying with us both doing ATPLs and currently flying, both in the UK and the US. Two of the finished students have gone straight to Flybe, finishing in July and Sept.
The modular course that we run makes up about +60% of our students have sent people (over the last 3 or so years) to Ryanair, Jet2, Easyjet, DHL, CityJet, SkyBus, Flybe, Aurigny, Loganair, and a host of small charter and private jet companies.

I would be biased in saying 'Yes' to your question, but I did all my training where I now work, and I've just gotten into a jet operator. So......yes.

[Qtr Life Crisis]

Just thought I would weigh in to comment on the absolute positive atmosphere on the last couple of pages of this thread - its fantastic. I was just getting extremely extremely frustrated over the amount of keyboard warriors and naysayers in these forums who log in only to vent their frustrations about their careers during the bad times on people coming up in the better times (sometimes I think people in training post things on here to trim the competition by scaring them away!) . Congrats to you all and good luck to those who, like me, had to work in the real world for a decade (or two or three or four apparently) in order to be able to start chasing the dream now!

[Basil Fawlty1]

Well said QLC. I'm certainly noticing a trend of 'older' guys career changing. Having personal funds available and a fall back career certainly removes a lot of the risks...

[Qtr Life Crisis]

Thanks Basil Fawlty1, I would say the best thing about working the real world for a while (especially if you started flying young like me then stopped to earn "big bucks" and progress a career) is that it removes any doubt in your mind that this is what you want to do. I could one day work for the worst airline in the world with the worst on/off ratio and its still gonna be a million times better than my last job!

[Gav28]

QLC - Have read a few of your posts recently with interest, I'm in a similar position to you (got my PPL in my mid twenties but shelved the commercial flying ambitions to chase $ in a high paying job I despised). Almost 10y later I'm seriously considering returning to pilot training. I'm probably still 6m-1y away from starting but I'd be interested to hear how you get on so hopefully you will post some updates.

Good luck.

[Basil Fawlty1]

Agreed - having that bit of extra perspective will certainly help when the going gets tough...

[Qtr Life Crisis]

Gav28 - I was the same, it took me about 9 months to plan, squirrel away savings and do all my research while leaving my old job without burning bridges (I have the option of doing short or long term contracts for the next 5 years as a nice backup)

I would do it if I were you! and yeah just PM me if you ever want an update, but I have a long way to go!

[wassupman]

I am 36 about to start flight training hopefully getting an airline job. I was thinking of taking one step at a time rather than signing up for an integrated program. I have high blood pressure and i know under CAA the medication i am taking is allowed.
Has anyone come across anyone with high blood pressure and who has successfully got a job after their training? thanks.

[wassupman]

First of all, Paul, sincere congratulations. You deserve what you’ve achieved

You really applied yourself, never gave up and now have made the opportunity to get on with the job you’ve always dreamt of.
Now you’ll need all of the qualities you’ve shown to continue and progress in the business.

There’ll be times when you get fed up of not enough time at home with the family.
There’ll be times when you’re so tired you’ll wonder which way is up.
You’ll get fed up of the times when, every 6 months, someone tries to pull your skills apart, tries to find fault with your flying and yet still you’ll get through with the same enthusiasm you’ve obviously always shown.
There’ll be times when you wonder if you’re really valued when, once again, salaries are frozen to “help the company get through the downturn”. You just tighten your financial belt and try and ride it as you’ve always done. It usually sorts itself in the end.
As you get older, these irritations will seem to be more important. Your medical will eventually show signs of letting you down and yet, still, you’ll get your head down and cope.
All these travails will reveal themselves in your coming career. Be ready for them and devise mechanisms and a health regime to carry you through.

Flying is the best career in the world; never forget that when it gets tough or when some sh*t tries to spoil it.
Plan your career from now on with these thoughts in mind and you'll have a wonderful, rewarding time ahead.

I’m just coming to the end after 57 years as a professional pilot. I don’t regret a minute of it.
Sir, your message post is inspiring!

[Mo122]

Hi Everyone. I will try to make my post as brief yet informative as possible, so you can help me out.

I’ve always wanted to be a pilot since a very early age. I’ve always been reading about airplanes and learning more everyday and I was a crazy home simmer. I couldn’t afford to start training after high school graduation. I had a bachelor degree in business management and I started making my way in productions plants firms.

At 32 now, I realized that I might be wasting my time doing what I don’t enjoy as a job. Then this idea of “its never too late hit me”. I am single, have savings that can make me afford to start now. I am an Egyptian who lives in Egypt. I asked my flag carrier airline if they accept older pilots and they have an age restriction of 28, but yet again I can work anywhere as long as I will be flying.

Am I crazy to shift entirely my career at this age and leave my secure paying job? Is it doable? How long will it take me to have an ATP license? How much will it cost me (have around 60k $ in savings)I guess cheapest place for me would be the US? Can I make it to airlines? From where should I start?

I know nothing is definitive in this world, I might get lucky or not. But given the facts, what are the chances to start training at 32 and seeking a career in a “foreign country regional/airlines”.

Cheers

[Langeveldt]

I am 29, ended up doing a work from home job I dislike (but that gives me almost unlimited freedom to live where I choose). I had 180 hours but was incredibly harsh on myself whenever I had a bad flight, and I ended up disliking the whole thing.

I have always missed it though and time is a ticking. Perhaps a few years without flying have changed my mentality and I will start to enjoy it and be less hard on myself whenever something goes wrong.

[Scouseflier85]

Hi all I'm in my early 30s and was wondering if there was any guys or girls same sort of age group who have gone down the integrated route i.e. Ctc fte oaa either mpl or whitetail who have gained employment with ezy ryr etc do these airlines prefer younger cadets or do I stand the same chance as someone fresh out of education

[Marlon Brando]

Marlon B,

Do you feel it'd be harder still for older low hr US citizen looking for job in Europe?
Thanks for comments

I believe a US citizen can not work in the EU. Nothing to do with aviation, it's about labor regulation.
But I don't know for sure.

And you can easily find a "small" job in aviation in the US, instruction, regional airlines...
Not a good idea to come in EU i think !

From my experience, I finished training 2 years ago, applied pretty much everywhere possible, no airline jobs if you are more than 40 with no Hours. There is no official age limit, like you can have in asia or ME, it's illegal in EU. But it applies, believe me !
I fly corporate wich is way more fun ! And they like older guys.

[ThunderCats224]

never too old!

(im hoping )

[Chris the Robot]

It saddens me somewhat that someone who is mid to late thirties would be deemed as "over the hill" by some airlines. I'm a trainee train driver in my mid twenties, I'm the "baby" of the course, the average age is 36 and the oldest is 51. The two oldest folks on the course (49 and 51) have consistently been getting stronger exam results than many of the younger folks. Oldest trainee I've ever heard of was 55 when he started.

Since the training is fully funded by the company and is more expensive than a fATPL plus TR, they'd have a lot to lose if these folks left early, however the company is willing to put the investment in since they reckon the life experience these trainees have outweighs the shorter career length.

I was at two airline assessment days last year and the average age was most likely mid twenties at the max. Someone well into their forties could quite easily reach a command and spend a good ten years in the left hand seat, the airline (if applicable) and trainee would get a good return on investment I reckon. That is, if the airline employed them of course.

[rudestuff]

Learning to drive a train is more expensive than getting a fATPL+TR? Excuse my ignorance, I thought those things were just FWD-STOP-REV. Maybe an extra lever for the doors?

[Chris the Robot]

The train driving training takes 12-18 months. First is 8 weeks of Rules (16 weeks if it's interspersed with time spent in the cab shadowing a driver). I imagine the principle of it is similar to ATPL theory, most of your time is in a classroom with a series of exams on things like signalling, emergency evacuations etc.

Next up is Traction. This time it's looking at the systems on the trains you'll be driving (isolation cocks, circuit breakers amongst many other things). Can last from 4 weeks to 3 months depending on what you have to learn and whether your employer has a centralised defect management. Think of it as a type rating without driving a train.

The longest bit is out with a Driver Instructor, you'll spend typically a year with one of these driving real trains with more than a thousand real passengers on them during the peak, I imagine it's broadly similar to line training in the aviation world. The Driver Instructor is a fully qualified driver who's most likely on over £50k a year. At the end of it all you'll have a 5-7 day exam with your manager covering everything you've learned. If you pass, you're now a driver.

Don't want to digress further, after all it's a thread about ageism in aviation, not trains. Nontheless, I do think the airlines could learn a few things from the railway world when it comes to recruiting older folk, who more often than not turn out to be very good drivers.

I hear that some of the niche sectors within aviation are a bit more open minded than some, plus some of the big boys will look at candidates who are 40-ish, though from what I can tell it gets difficult at 35-plus. Obviously, instructing is a different world but if I were in the left hand seat of a multi-crew aircraft I'd probably want someone with a bit of life experience next to me.

[33LibertyStreet]

Hey guys!

I'd like to know your brutally honest view on the job prospects of a 30 year old non-US/non-EU pilot with 1500 total hours (250 PIC, the rest SIC) and FAA CPL,ME,IR,ATPL, FAA class 1, ICAO English level 6.

I'm willing to locate anywhere in the world but I'd like, as with everyone else, to land a job in an airline flying 737s or A320s.

Is my head way up in the clouds? :) I'd love to fly CRJs in US regional airlines but they won't hire someone without US greencard/citizenship.

[SloppyJoe]

No one can give you an answer as they do not know what the industry will be like when you finish training, they don't know what your like etc etc. It is possible and many do it, however many do not. It's a gamble like many things, if you don't do it, will it always be at the back of your mind?

30 is no where near too old. How old are you now? Asking as on another thread you are questioning about a flight school to complete your initial training.

[Gunman returns]

I am a 51 year old 777 Captain. Didn't even have a trial lesson till 35. First 737 job at 38 became a 777 skipper at 46.

[jamesgrainge]

Inspirational!

[33LibertyStreet]

No one can give you an answer as they do not know what the industry will be like when you finish training, they don't know what your like etc etc. It is possible and many do it, however many do not. It's a gamble like many things, if you don't do it, will it always be at the back of your mind?

30 is no where near too old. How old are you now? Asking as on another thread you are questioning about a flight school to complete your initial training.

I'm 25 turning 26 this October and I asked with the hypothetical hours because by the time I save up money for flight training I think will be around 28.

Becoming a pilot has always been a dream of mine since I was young but because of flight training costs and the fact that I've had two spontaneous pneumothorax surgeries, I discouraged myself from pursuing a career in aviation until about a few months ago when I learned that 2 SP cases may still qualify me for a class 1 medical (I called about 5 AMEs around US and UK and they said it's not a definite no but also not a definite yes so FAA's going to have to look at my ct scans and xrays).

[TryingToAvoidCBs]

I also started training late.

I Didn't start my PPL until 26, planned to be finished by 28 and working for an airline by 30.

In the end, the real world took over. I didn't finish my IR until 32, MCC/JOC at 34, then first job on 737s at 35.

Have patience, don't do anything stupid, don't make any quick decisions.

You're never too old :ok:

[Black Pudding]

PPL at 33

ATPLs done by the time I was 36

CPL and IR done by the time I was 37

First flying job 737 at the age of 39 turning 40

[HungGarRebel]

Hi guys, I've wanted to be a pilot for most of my childhood and all of my adult life. I'm now in a position to be able to fund my own training and should be able to do my PPL and CPL + Flight Instruction course full time and should be able to complete the whole thing within about 18 months.

I have spoken to a couple of people and have generally received a very negative response from people that have completed their CPL and not been able to find jobs. Also, I have been told by them I a too old to expect a good career in the industry. I am going into this field with my eyes wide open and I know it won't be easy (nothing worth doing ever is) but, I am going to be 31 by the time I finish my course which leaves me with nearly 35 years of a career ahead of me.

So in short, am I too old to be thinking of doing this? Yes, I am nearly 30 but I have no responsibilities and I am free and capable to travel anywhere I need to in order to take a job that will allow me to begin racking up some hours. Is that enough to over come my age disadvantage or did I really need the rich family that would fund me through this at the age of 18?

All responses appreciated, I never expected to get soo much negative feedback from people that had done their CPL.

[Lou56]

Hi there.
Am considering starting from ground zero up to the CPL and I am soon to become 56 years old.
Physically in great shape, should I go or not.
Point being would a school/training center accept my candidature? (beside happily taking my money)

[Beltstrappedin]

Black Pudding, what did you do between 37 and 39 before getting your first job, how did you keep current if you didn't fly etc?

[Dogfactory]

Hi there.
Am considering starting from ground zero up to the CPL and I am soon to become 56 years old.
Physically in great shape, should I go or not.
Point being would a school/training center accept my candidature? (beside happily taking my money)
Bruce Dickinson, Clint Eastwood, Harrison Ford.... they can do it because they have loads of money. That's the only way of making it at your age. You will need the money for passing the medical (even if you are in good shape), you will also need the money to fly 5 hours/day in order to build your logbook quickly, and you will need the money to corrupt some manager in order to land a job before they will put you in pension, which will happen when you turn 60.... you haven't got much time left, have you?
Oh, and one more, since the only aircraft you will be allowed to fly are warbirds or old planes, you will also need a lot of money to purchase (or lease) one. :ok:

[V1gilant]

Hi all,

Please can you help.... I am currently in a career I no longer enjoy and I have always wanted to do commercial flying. I am now in a position where I do have some capital behind me to do the training, however age is not on my side as I have now turned 40. Please can you advise me on whether I am too old to start training as it is a substantial amount of money to invest if airlines are not going to entertain a newly qualified pilot in his forties. Ant commentary and or advice would be greatly appreciated.

[GeorgEGNT]

Really needed to read this thread today. Thanks for your responses, you've provided a much needed boost in morale.
Best of luck to everybody on this difficult journey towards a flying job.

[BusAirDriver]

The honest answer is that it's impossible to know. If you have the spare cash, and are willing to take the risk / gamble that you might never land a job after spending close to 100.000 Euros incl. TR price, than it's worth a gamble.

Equally that you are not worried to move yourself around anywhere in Europe for that job, and accept that your pay will at best be around 1500 - 3000 Euros a month, than you need to consider if this is a career change that's worth taking.

Much depends I would say if you are in a relationship, have children, single, it all can makes things easier / more complicated. Only you know your personal circumstances.

By the time you are finish training you will probably be 42 -44, it's not impossible to get jobs, but equally it's not easy. I will never recommend P2F, but at this age, this might be your only option, but this means more money required.

I know guys who both have made it and guys who have failed. A lot comes down to luck, and the amount of money you are willing to spend. Some of these now flies for companies like BA, others have gone back to their old jobs with a 100.000 Euros or more lost.

If this money does not matter for you, than sure, give it a go, if it is something you will struggle to get, well than I would say no, because there are no well paid jobs until you have had a good FO job for another 3 - 5 years after you landed your first proper job.

[holding4release]

An encouraging thread I found the other day...The current job market.... - ATP Forum (http://www.atpforum.eu/forum/social/student-to-student/5812-the-current-job-market)

[BusAirDriver]

I am not sure why that is encouraging, that link / posts was written in 2007, when they job market was completely different than today. This article does not have much relevance in todays market.

Today CTC have cornered many of those first FO jobs for low hours experienced pilots and MPL's.

Going the SEP FI route for people starting around 40 is not an easy choice, as it adds quite a bit on the cost of the course, and if you have a family, you probably will not be able to survive working as an FI, if you at all find a job as an FI.

Most of the FI's I know had several thousand SEP and MEP hours, but they got jobs after people that they had newly trained with only 300 hours.
So the game of getting a job is quite random.
Example with myself, I had already been flying jets for several years when my CPL instructor got his first airline job.

As a fresh trained pilot, you might not get that many chances of an interview and Sims, and when you do get on chance you will be competing with thousands of other applicants.

If you are around mid thirties when you start training you have a good chance of making a career, but be aware what it's all about, the risks and dangers.

If you starting early 40's, I would say it's getting risky, as you will be at least 44 - 45 by the time you get your first job, if you get one at all.

I know of plenty of success stories I could tell you about here, but for every success story, I know 10 that are not having an happy ending.

So if you are comfortable to take the financial hit, and this is not an issue for your future, than go for it, if you feel that this will put you and your families future at risk, than take a step back and consider it carefully again.

It's a bit like Dirty Harry's best line, "Do you feel lucky? (Punk) " :E

[crazypilot]

Many guys on here asking whether being in their 30s is too old. No, I wouldn't say so!

I was 31 when I started training. Integrated. To me that seemed like the safest route to getting a job as soon as possible. I had a PPL from many years ago when I was 17, but didn't have the funding available to take it any further back then and didn't have the luxury of a wealthy family to borrow money from. Would have loved to have trained back when I was much younger but in retrospect, really enjoyed my years doing something else.

My biggest concern was would I find pilot training more difficult than the sprightly 20-year olds that I would be training alongside. We all tend to get a bit slower as we age. In the end, it wasn't an issue whatsoever and I performed just as well, and in my cases, better, than many of my younger colleagues during exams etc. So don't let that scare you.

I was fortunate to get an airline job (A320 FO) pretty much straight after finishing MCC/JOC so was over the moon with that. At no point did my age even come into question and in fact served me well - it was much easier to come up with answers to interview questions when you've had a wealth of work and life experience beforehand.

I'm really glad I took the plunge...left a well-paid job to jump into the unknown but certainly worth it! Still having a fantastic time, two years into the job. Being a more "mature" FO is also seen as a very welcome change for many of the Captains - having a bit of experience prior to flying, having done so,etching different, seen different places, etc etc, provides for a far more interesting day of in-cruise chat...at least that's what most of them say ;-)

Best of luck to anyone sitting on the fence...go with your gut instinct. It's well worth the ride. The views are as incredible as you imagine, and remember, you technically don't have to retire until you're in your 60s so you'll still be doing this for 30 or so years!

[Genghis the Engineer]

This thread is coming up on 9 years old next month. Is it getting too long in the tooth to be offering useful advice any more, or is a nine year old thread still capable of being a useful thread on an aviation bulletin board with a decent career ahead of it?

[Parson]

I would have thought this thread is as relevant now as it ever was. And will continue to be....?

[Thegreenmachine]

Maybe you missed the irony in the question.

30 years old isn't too old. Well I hope not i'll be 30 in a few months and coming towards the end of an integrated program,no problem keeping up with the young bucks.

[Parson]

Thegreenmachine - I think G was making a serious(ish) point

[Genghis the Engineer]

I was, using irony to do so. :E

[MotoRinzler]

I've found this forum following research into commercial flight lisences with a view to gaining a CPL ME IR with MCC (commonly called fATPL). I've done a lot of reading via the search function, the stickies and other sources, but have a few outstanding areas I'm hopeful others may be able to point me in the right direction with. Employability.

As a brief backstory. I'm a married male approaching 40. Wife, house, kid, full time job etc. Probably the typical financial situation for my age. The difference is; I wish to become a commercial pilot. I've always wanted to, just never been able to do anything much about it and life took me away from aviation when I was younger but I keep coming back to it, so am now just about to embark on a ppl. As old as I may be starting, If I don't then I never will.

I'm fully aware of the difficulties I may face in training, absorbing new concepts and theory's for the ATPL exams and tests, all whilst holding a full time job and doing my CPL/IR etc.

I expect difficulty once qualified wth respect to being modular vs integrated, the fact I will not be able to afford the type rating extra currently expected. Plus the fact I'll be 44(ish).

I therefore have no false expectations of working long haul for BA or Virgin. The best I understand I can expect (if lucky) is for short haul turbo prob, regional, biz or corporate work. If if I further train. I'm happy with this notion if true.

I'm not intentding to do this for the uniform and the glamor. I expect hard work to get the lisence, had work to get the first job, and hard work full stop once working. Not too different to any other profession in that respect.

I have GCSE's in English and Math. A BSc and a Post Graduate Certificate, along with good work experience with none pilot transferable skills. Others may simply call these 'life skills', or 'life experiences'. I'm detailed, calm, logical and take the lead without challenging established leadership. I take responsibility for my actions and am a little head strong. Am a team player but can happily work independently when needed. My preference is to plan tasks out yet can think on my feet when the situation dictates.

Having seen a lot of talk about the difficulties all fATPL students face gaining their first employment, research suggested that quite a lot of those looking, are also said to be none employable. I think I'd seen that almost 50% of all fATPL (both modular and intergrated) students presenting themselves for the illusive first job are said to be none employable, but it wasn't explained. I'm unsure if it's the pilots soft skills, age, background, flight school reports, the actual flight school or the actual ATPL exam pass marks.

My question is this; what does 'Employable' mean?

My intent here is to gauge my own employability as an early to mid 40 year old modular fATPL in the UK, without the ability to directly self fund a type rating. I'd consider a location move if finances made sense and I'd be happy with being bonded.

[redsnail]

My question is this; what does 'Employable' mean? by MotoRinzler

The question unofficially asked by the pilots on the interview panel is "Can I spend 10 hours locked in a small room with this person?"

As to your question about being a self funded fATPL in your mid 40s? The real questions should be "Will I be able to pay myself back before retirement?" "will this affect my ability to provide for my children's education?" "will my wife tolerate my absences?"

If you "win" - great. Given you live in North Wales, you'll most likely need to move at least once or endure the pain of commuting.
If you "lose" - you'll have a piece of paper from the CAA and a logbook and a £50,000 deficit.

Timing is every thing in this industry. If you are familiar with economic cycles, you'll understand where we are. A few of us are bracing ourselves for a downturn in 12-18 months time.

[MotoRinzler]

Redsnail; thank you. I have taken onboard your comments.

With reference to the inclination that it's a win for me if I earn the funds back or not I'd have to respond with; In my view it's not all about money. This isn't my hope/path to financial gain.

I'd like to earn some of it back yes..... we all need to live and put food on the table. And if I come out by my retirement on top then all the better. I'm sure I will make some choices purely based on finances as might be dictated.But I'm not aiming to measure success via a balance sheet alone. I'm sure you'd agree life is far more complex than just the bank balance.

I'm lucky that my wife is fully supportive and fully understands the need if it happens to commute / move / spend time away. It's impossible to say there won't be any issues as life is never that easy.

I'd love to be able to say I'd play things smart and 'time' my entry but at my age I very much doubt I have that luxury.

Your comment regarding could a person see themselves in a small room with me for 10hrs is interesting, as I suspect many a recruiter thinks along this line (organisational fit and personal likability) within their own respective employment context as a final selection method (not getting into the merits or correctnes of it).

In real terms; does your face fit. But this of course is I assume after someone has met with you. So you could say that you're already 'employable' by getting an interview. The fact that a recruiter warms more to one pilot than another is personal preference. I can't see recruiters wasting time interviewing un-employable potentials, unless I'm completely out of touch.

If I'm honest my expectation of what made one pilot more employable than another was more than ones face fitting; that exam results, schools or life experiences and was looking for insight into what these are in today's world and climate. Example. I'm to understand that for BA. I'd be un-employable due to being low hour fATPL modular.

[redsnail]

MotoRinzler
Many employers use their HR department to run filters WRT candidates. Officially age cannot be used but it is. Unofficially, if you're over 40 and you're low time, then you'll struggle to get a look in with most airlines. Yes, it is wrong but that's the reality with many companies. The reason is return of service for the money spent training and there is a perception that older candidates aren't mentally flexible enough to deal with the rigors of sim and ground school in the minimum time.

Other factors that can make a person unemployable, the fact that someone says that they are flexible but the reality is that they have family commitments, etc and then once hired, their flexibility and willingness to move dries up. Now, are you this person? Who knows? Your wife says she's on board now, but 2-3 years into no holidays or can't get them when she wants because you're too junior, who knows?

There are other things that make someone unemployable, essentially it's the employer's experience with a particular group that they've had experience with and if you have some of those characteristics, you're not going to get a look-in.

Many of them do become apparent during the sim assessment and interview. Authoritarian in the sim, too aggressive, not cooperative, too smug. Liar. Argumentative. it is an art to put your idea across without being a ****.

Oh - in all the jobs I have applied for, I have never been asked for exam results. No one cares in reality. Perhaps some airlines do, I don't know. Given you're probably not going for the bigger airlines, then it'll be school recommendations to a certain extent and how you've conducted yourself during your training. Real life experience? Might mean something but in the end it's all down to "can you fly and can I get on with you?" (For smaller & regional ops).

[Council Van]

MotoRinzler

I see you have a wife and Children, they are your priority.

Can you return to your current line of work if you do not gain employment as a pilot and if you do gain employment as a pilot can your total family income sustain your current life style?

How old are the children, young and moving them will be easy, secondary school and not such a good idea to up sticks.

I had a brief spell in Nigeria and a longer spell based in Germany, would not have expected my family to move and did not ask them to.

Working away can be tough on your domestic situation.

50k is a lot of money to gamble on a career change, flying for a living is a good job but not worth risking your family's life style and contentment for.

Tough choice, but only you know your personal and financial situation.

[MotoRinzler]

Redsnail & Council Van. Understood, and thank you for the time to reply.. both of you. I'd like to tease out a few thoughts on a few points you both raise if I may... provoke discussion and see if any contrasting views come out so I can get an idea of the general concesus.

My current job is safety critical. Public facing. I work as a crew of two and spend 8 to 12hrs in a vehicle with a work partner. The same one for 6 years with the odd change due to leave etc. I can relate to the concept of having to (or not wanting to) spend hrs on end with 'some'.

Although not aviation. The role has tasks where talk is minimal, yet communication is key. Not as formal as the flight deck, but I do very much grasp the concept of needing to be cooperative (but not blindly following), being clear and direct (yet not overpowering or agressive), when to discuss, debate, debrief and explore ideas (without being argumentative). When to support and when to lead. These, of course, are all very subjective... and I would say situational dependent.

Each attribute both of you have depicted as a possible negative, I could give you two positives for each. I'm not questioning if what you say is correct as I am here asking for advice; so It would be a little strange for me to say it's not correct.

For example. The idea that the self-declaration of flexible suddenly becomes inflexible once a job has been taken. I have to concede that one could indeed simply lie about the degree of flexibility that is actually available and the true degree of willingness. Equally the employer can do the same. Both could simply not 'shoot themselves in the foot' unless asked a direct question. Not my style... I'd rather be open, and expect the same.

I would equally find it extremely odd to find anyone who was so flexible that you could do anything to them and they would never say anything. Again; not my style. I do have self-worth and strong sense of whats right.

It's easy to say an employee isn't being flexable when they happen to mutter about being relocated for the 3rd time in 4 years when they were promised to not see more than 2 moves. This muttering doesn't have to be the spouse. I'm wondering how service families cope; as this isn't unique to airlines and aviation.

Costs and returns. Although I accept that the employer will face training costs, and therefore look for a return. I can't quite remove the notion that this is one of the very few industries that cost you £50k to £100k before you get an interview only to be given a job if you can then pay the employer another £30k more. I could quite confidently make the case that at my age; having committed such finances to a career change, I am less likely to run to another airline, less likely to put the job at risk, and probably happier moving into training than a young person that may be chasing money and promotions. Thus the true return is a stable and mature rounded future commander/training. That's before you then ask me how I know at 40 I want to be a pilot rather than asking me at 18. Remembering wanting something and having the funds to do it are completely different. Isn't there a risk the now 23year old changes their mind at 25 and wants to be a vet. I'd be interested in the turnover data of pilots when looking at the age of entry to service.

Family. I have to accept that you are completely correct. The family comes first. Does this make you a bad pilot and place you at the back of the line?

I'd struggle to believe that recruiters are all without family, all pilots, captains, and instructors are all without family. Thus having a family is probably more common than not. The family is only an issue for those who wish to see it as such. Again, linked to the flexibility issue. Nothing to say here that a young single person won't turn around and ask for maternity leave.

I've seen just as many single people have 'life issues' as those with family. As you say - depends on your experiences; t which I'd also add.... and how you allow those to creep into prejudices and judgements on others.

So far... I've not had anything to tells me I'm wouldn't be employable... just I'd have some explaining to do :)

I do read that Flybe and Easyjet (I think) are asking for 90% in all ATP TK exams, and FIRST series passes in both CPL and IR. I just can't confirm it from other sources. I also read stories of mid 40's being hired.... as I do of mid 20's not. Which brings me right back to why. Is it the rejected are not first series pass, 90% examers or was the MCC/JOC too short?

[redsnail]

MotoRinzler
I think you are looking for either proof or a guarantee that you'll make it as a professional pilot. There is no guarantee.

Promises, agreements written on paper/email, deals, stuff said at interview, all can and probably will be broken. Heck even contracts can be broken. I've seen it all before.

You're in North Wales, you get your first job Newcastle. They've asked you all of the above re family and stuff, you assure them that you won't leave etc. A year later, a job on something bigger and more money comes up in Liverpool. Guess what, all those things you said to your first employer are now void. That's reality. Or worse, you get your ideal job in Liverpool but now the company is moving out of that base and you now either are made redundant or accept a new base in Stansted. Great, you think, I'll get relocation allowance. Not necessarily, as you voluntarily took the base change, your move is at your expense. And so on.

I am sure all of this goes on in other industries. However, not many cost this much to enter. Of course, this assumes you get a reasonable FO position on £20-£25k/year.
Can you afford to earn less than that for 5 years post training?

If you really want to do it, go for it. I can't and won't stop you. However, too many folks enter the industry with only the sales brochure for guidance.

[superflanker]

Or perhaps you could find a job in aerial work or instruction.

I know you won't earn the same amount of money, but I don't understand why so many people that discovers that being a pilot is their ultimate goal won't even think about this.

I'm studying for my ATPLs and yes, I would love to be a 777 captain some day. But I would be very happy flying a Pilatus Porter, a 310 or an Arrow for the rest of my life.

[redsnail]

MotoRinzler
There are many reasons why people do not get a job just because they hold a CPL/IR and ATPL subjects. Usual reason is they fail the interview. Either the face-to-face part, the theory test or most commonly, the sim check.

superflanker
That is very easy to say when you're looking in. My first full time job was flying a C207 around the Kimberley in Australia. Yes, I heard myself say that I was so happy. Indeed I was. However, you do realise that the salary won't get a mortgage nor pay for retirement. When you're 25, who cares? When you're 45, you do care very much. :D
So by "rest of your life" you really mean "first job". Which is good. :)

[superflanker]

Ok I understand the money. It just seems to me there are a lot of students who think that anything but airline work is despicable.

[MotoRinzler]

Redsnail. Once again. I appreciate the input. Food for thought. Everything you raise is valid; of course and completely possible.

I find myself realising how 'glass half full' I am on the subject of my age and family position; and with the right employer can see how these would be huge benefits rather than negatives.

The notion that a young single FO wouldn't be as inflexible as you suggest an older family FO would be is not a belief I'd say I share. I'm also a terms and conditions man rather than the glossy brochure.

Superflanker. Totally agree. I suspect the majority of this type of work is via networking over pilot school sausage factories?

[MotoRinzler]

I suppose my question would have been better phrased as what are the coommon elements how applicants are failing interviews, tech tests and sim checks? Are the sims failed on skill, procedures or personal attributes and what?

[redsnail]

superflanker
Couldn't agree with you more. If it isn't Boeing or Airbus it isn't worth looking at.... :/

[BusAirDriver]

"MotoRinzler" by reading some of your posts, I have to agree with Redsnail, and also feel that you are looking for some validation to make this choice.

I can speak from personal experience, as I was similar age as you when I started.

First of all if you can't pay for your type rating, don't even consider it, unless you are happy to work as an FI, and can survive on £15.000 - £20.000 a year.
All aerial work jobs, are very hard to get, unless you have good connections and generally good experience, corporate / biz jets, is equally difficult, and the type ratings are at a high cost, a friend of mine was given 2 TR's by his employee, each costing close to $100.000, add to this the fact in biz jets, you are 100 % at mercy at your employee, now stable schedule, you might be away for 2 - 3 weeks, get back and go out again. But these jobs are not very easy to get, specially not for someone with low experience.

So no employee is going to spend this kind of money on a low hour 250 hour pilot.

Please don't give me that tosh that "money is not the measure of the value of my life quality" - when you have been working like a dog for 3 - 4 years, never being able to have a holiday when your children have their holidays, or you go to work when wife and kids are at work / school, and you come home when they are deep asleep 2 - 3 - 4 in the morning.
Even worse if you are commuting, you are away and commute home and to work on your rest days, and in a period of 10 days you are lucky to spend 1 - 2 days with your family, and you are telling me the family / wife will be supportive after few years like this?

And that you are going to be more loyal to your employee than a 21 year old, if you get a job which is 1 hour from home, so you will not change your job, because you are an older more rounded and honest person? Please don't make me laugh.

For the first job, we will almost do anything we need to get in, and you would be an IDIOT to be honest about your intentions, as you would not be given the job. Of course I want to commute for half a day, stay away from family and friends for another 10 days, and spend 2 days every 14 days with my family, because I want to be with your company, why would I want to move, I know I can get command here in few years, so of course, work is my priority, that's why I am happy to sell my life away.

You think this might sound extreme, it's not, it's the reality you are looking to enter if you are so lucky that you get a job.

First of all, you will not get many interviews, the ones you get you will need to prepare for, and you need to know what the companies are looking for, so you need to give the replies that their HR have recognised are the answers they are looking for.

If you can't pay your own type rating, than I would say don't even bother, because you will never find a job that will be able to give you a proper living wage if you have family, mortgage etc.

Sure us "older" candidates have many "good" attributes, but one of the reasons they will expect you to pay your own TR, is your age, they will have experience with older candidates, showing that they are not always equally fast learners, I have seen this myself from friend of mine, that was just not up to scratch for the mental games in the Sim.

I know many guys who got jobs, but they would mostly have a second source of income they could rely on, or a job / business they could go back to. But no airline will pay the TR for someone which could be a risk for them, who could run up training costs with extra sim sessions, extra period of line training etc.
Unfortunately age does not help you in this, but of course you will have other advantages that you must hope they will catch during your interview.

There are companies who might cover your TR, but they will deduct it monthly from your pay, so if you can live on £600 - £800 a month, than that might be an option if you are so lucky.

Conclusion, it is not impossible to achieve your dream, but be ready for the negatives. I personally went modular, had PPL from before, but ended up spending close to £80.000 - £90.000 incl. TR, over a period of around 4.5 years. After 4 years commuting long distances, I am where I want to be, however it all came at great personal cost, and you need to ask yourself are you ready for the reality that is not sold to you in the flight school.

Most likely you will complete the training, I assume part time, and you might not get a job, but will still have spent £50.000 plus, I was very lucky I got a job within 12 months of finishing my fATPL's, but I had to pay for my own TR to accept the job offer, the risk was on me if I screwed up my TR training.
During the first 2 years, I was home less than 80 days a year, and that included my commuting days, which I spent around 8 - 9 years commuting.
My first local job, I was commuting just over 4 hours a day for nearly 2 years, before I got my preferred base.

Are you this motivated that you can convince the people that interviews you that you are the right person for them?
When they do the interview, they are looking to tick HR boxes, so your answers should be aligned with their expectations of you.

My first interview which was abroad, I told them I wanted to join them, get my command with them, because I could get quick command, even move my family with me eventually, knowing full well this was all a load of BS, but honesty would not have gotten me my first job, because that would not have ticked the right boxes of what they wanted from me.

(When I completed my IR /fATPL, the head of school congratulated me, and told me whatever I did, I should try to get a Jet job asp., because it was the only way you could justify the massive investment at such a late age, and he was right)

[MotoRinzler]

BusAirDriver

Reality or not; your comments are quite negative. So I thank you for either trying to put me off or simply being open and honest.

Specifically on one point thou. You are wrong. When I say that money is not the only measure of success; I'm being genuinely honest. You may of course think it's 'tosh'.... you obviously know little about me.

That opinion difference aside. I appreciate the contribution. It's only with others views I can formulate an educated and informed decision.

I'm starting to recognise that funding a TR should be something I ensure I can do... plus investigate FI... which is something I'm now looking into more.

[BusAirDriver]

No I am not being negative, I am being realistic.
Most of us who do this, forego common sense.

You can't live of FI, well not supporting a family etc., maybe if you that part time with your normal job, than that could work, again not easy to even get those jobs, but if you do your training at good level you might get the odd FI jobs from time to time, but you can't survive full time on that, unless your wife also has a good job.

Regarding the TR, if you start of with the outset that you will not pay your own TR, you are already excluding yourself from 90% of the jobs that are around.

Regarding your opinion of Money, "MotoRinzler" - maybe you are very rich, or / and your wife has high paid job, so money is not an objective for you, than it's fine. Go ahead, go for it and live the dream.
However I suggest you first get your class 1 medical, your PPL as step 1 and 2, than check if you can spend around £80.000 - £90.000 on training, where at best you will have a job for the next 7 -8 years making around £2.000 a month.
If you can handle your family, and expenses for at least 7-8 years, maybe more, than that's reality, that's not about being negative.

I might sound negative, because this is the experience I have had, and only last year did I have the chance to have a proper holiday with my daughter, for the first time in over 4 year since, I started working. And it was not about the money alone, when you been commuting over different time zones for a couple of years, you discover that it's about lifestyle and life quality, and lets be honest, without money you have neither, and also you need to calculate the time.

I am personally very happy with my situation now, it's perfect for me, but it was 4 years of hardship, and still the investment has not paid itself back, and it will probably take me another 4 -6 years, before I can say I have reached where I wanted, and I am in a good place.

That's what you need to understand, and what's difficult to see when you have not started.

I know guys starting late 30's, and now have their command with BA, it's not impossible, but it's not easy.

[jamesgrainge]

The market probably looks much more positive across the board at this time though. Good luck if you can get qualified in a couple of years, there should be the positions available.

[BusAirDriver]

That seems like a real constructive and measured response, based on one persons senses and emotions, with absolutely no basis in real facts.

The job market for low houred pilots will not change anytime soon, as there are thousands out there fishing for their first jobs. Unfortunately for many, there are a few FTO's that are now getting priority on supplying pilots to airlines, which makes it more difficult if you choose to go the cheaper modular route.

If you have few thousand hours on jet, sure the future is bright, if you only finished CPL/ME/IR with your ATPL's, and 250 hours, you will be one of 5000 for every job application. So unfortunately money for TR, age etc. are all things that will count in the selection process.

With the money I spent on training, I could have put that as a deposit on a house, and had my own property today (well the banks property).
Money wise that would have maybe been a smarter investment. Do I regret? Not yet.
But we never know what life will bring in the future.

[jamesgrainge]

That seems like a real constructive and measured response, based on one persons senses and emotions, with absolutely no basis in real facts.



Ouch. At first I dared to hope another poster could also be positive. Alas, I was mistaken.

[BusAirDriver]

Rather a reality check, as we do not yet know the effect of Brexit, the collapse of the Pound, the reduction of T & C's due to unfair competition and oversupply of crews.

Something has to give when the last 12 months, there has been an almost 30% price increase for Brits wanting to travel abroad, only because of the collapse of the Pound.

[jamesgrainge]

Ryanair are hoovering up low hours guys.

Maybe suggest the most affordable ways and explain the realities of training, after all, we all have X number of stories about people who did and didn't get jobs, it's very difficult to give an accurate assessment.

Personally, if you can afford to do the PPL I would always recommend starting there, it usually helps the decision.

[BusAirDriver]

I was giving advice to somebody who is in their 40's. Trust me, Ryanair are NOT hoovering up newly trained pilots in their mid 40's.
I am not going to tell someone in their 40's, with family (children), that just do it, with rose tinted glasses, without warning of the pitfalls.

[gfunc]

You'll be lucky to get a second glance in your mid-thirties! I've had my application in for over a year and not a peep heard out of them. I know it's a small sample size, but on my MCC the two guys under 30 had interviews with them within 2 weeks and the two (much more handsome) old fellows, with the same qualifications, have never heard a single thing. It can't be my CV as I've been invited to selection and passed the assessment for another operator.

[jamesgrainge]

I was giving advice to somebody who is in their 40's. Trust me, Ryanair are NOT hoovering up newly trained pilots in their mid 40's.
I am not going to tell someone in their 40's, with family (children), that just do it, with rose tinted glasses, without warning of the pitfalls.

Warn of the pitfalls by all means. Can't you do it without selling the entire universe short? You need to consider some people are driven by more than their future paycheck.

[BusAirDriver]

If you are in your mid 40's, the odds are heavily stacked against you. I speak from personal experience.

I am not sure what your age is "jamesgrainge" - maybe 10 or 13 to come with the following comment "some people are driven by more than their future paycheck" - when you are in your 40's, with children / family, that future paycheck is pretty important to be sure you will have a house for your children to leave and food on the table.

You will spend close to £100.000 - this is no pocket change, and your chances to get a job that will give you a living wage, never-mind getting a living lifestyle, is maybe 5 %. You will have people from FTO's, that will "sell you the dream" but when they have your money, they don't care what happens to you, it will be you who have to fight to get your "dream job", and you will most likely have to spend more money after you finish your training to keep current, to keep your skills up to date etc.

I know one friend of mine now, he got his first job after 5 years waiting, countless interviews, he will be away from his family most of the time, but he is lucky as he has a business in can still make some income from.

For somebody who is 40, and who has children, that pay check is of great importance, I despise this idealist BS talk, that the "money does not matter" What utter nonsense. When you have done 12 months flying 900 hours, never home for your family, at least you should have paycheck to cover your mortgage and families life, even if you are not there yourself, if not what kind of selfish man are you?

[jamesgrainge]

I won't rise to any of that.

If a person can't afford it, they won't be able to start training anyway, rendering most of your comment moot.

I will readily admit I know very little of the world of job hunting in commercial aviation, but I do know that the things you regret in life are the things you don't try, how a person orders their responsibilities is a personal choice, and one they must take by themselves. I have tried to be nice and positive in my comments, but unfortunately you simply come across as one of the many here who are bitter, negative and careworn by their life results.

You could put your knowledge and experience to good use by presenting a balanced point of view, for instance I was taught by a FI who had kids and instructed in England. Late 30's and he turned down two job offers because of location, now flies a King Air. Training for command from the get go. Last week I met a man in the cockpit, mid 40's who had qualified 4 years ago and sits in the RHS of a 321.

It may take longer when you are older, but the market presents an opportunity at this time. It may or may not continue, but one thing is for definite, without the licence you have no chance of ever flying more than your imagination.

[BusAirDriver]

"jamesgrainge"

I am one of the "lucky" 5 % who started training early 40's, and now 4500 hours RHS, so I am in a position to speak with some experience on the question. I have worked for 2 airlines, the first was a stepping stone for my current job, which I am extremely happy with.

I accepted when I started this "dream", that I would most likely NOT get a job, that was what I expected and accepted from the outset, it was
However I am refusing to let emotions and dreams mix up with reality.

The FTO's will very rarely present people with the reality, although it might seem an amazing achievement to get your licence and initial ratings, this is one small step towards your career goal, admittedly the earlier you start the journey, the better chance you will have reach living on living salary.

I can say from personal experience, last year I had my "first" holiday / rest period in nearly 4 years from flying, and I am still after 5 years not making enough salary to cover the lifestyle of my family from flying alone. We are not talking any extravagant lifestyle. The first few years I was making even less, around £1400 a month.

So if you are mid 40's, have a couple of children, and want to follow your dream, I think it's nothing wrong to give a word of warning of what to expect, the reality.

I am not complaining at all, but it's a lot easier if you are 22 and have no commitments to worry about. And the airlines they understand this too, hence more difficult to get jobs when you are older and have no experience.

[BusAirDriver]

"button push ignored"

Yes it's like banging your head into a wall.

Just because they don't get the answers they like, want or seek, they believe you are bitter.

The fact is that many of us have been down that long road, and if you coming on to these forums asking questions, than that means you are not sure what you should do, and trying to seek advice from people who have tried this, and have similar experience.

Unless you been down this route, you don't really know what you are talking about, as you so elegantly admitted "jamesgrainge" with your quote "I will readily admit I know very little of the world of job hunting in commercial aviation"

Based on this background, it gives you very little insight to come here on the forum and give your personal advice, when you readily admit you are clueless about how it's getting jobs within aviation.

Considering people on this post, are considering life changing actions in their life, that might have serious financial consequences for them, which would not apply equally to someone that is 21 -26 years old.

You probably base your observations on some websites writing about Ryanair hoovering up pilots etc., yet again this is not a luxury that older candidates gets much benefit of unfortunately.

Even if a company recruits 500 pilots in one year, there will be more than 5000 applications for those 500 jobs. And of those 500 jobs, they will go for a mix of experienced pilots and newbies.

The companies are desperate for experienced pilots, who they can fast track to command, because that is what the companies really need, Captains.

[Zeky]

Hello,
I believe everything you said. I am 41 and I have decided to stay 'safe'. I am not doing it ( but still crazy about it).
There are lots of lovely stories and pilot profiles on Twitter and Instagram. Must be very confusing for some.

[jamesgrainge]

I don't doubt that most of what you say is correct, however if you cost yourself £50k on the modular route,and you can start on £40k+ in the airline's, how exactly does this not cover your outgoings? Bearing in mind the average UK salary is £27k.

You seem to apply your rules vey subjectively, even though you succeeded. Surely you can see the irony in having done exactly what people are asking you, with great success and aplomb, you are then doing your damnedest to stop people. When in reality you should be able to push the positives and say, "I did it".

Which part of the world are you working in?

[jamesgrainge]

Hello,
I believe everything you said. I am 41 and I have decided to stay 'safe'. I am not doing it ( but still crazy about it).
There are lots of lovely stories and pilot profiles on Twitter and Instagram. Must be very confusing for some.

Sorry to hear that Zeky. Maybe you can do your PPL and enjoy flying for pleasure?

[BusAirDriver]

I don't doubt that most of what you say is correct, however if you cost yourself £50k on the modular route,and you can start on £40k+ in the airline's, how exactly does this not cover your outgoings? Bearing in mind the average UK salary is £27k.

You seem to apply your rules vey subjectively, even though you succeeded. Surely you can see the irony in having done exactly what people are asking you, with great success and aplomb, you are then doing your damnedest to stop people. When in reality you should be able to push the positives and say, "I did it".

Which part of the world are you working in?

:ugh:

1. First: Modular route with TR will NOT cost you £50K (fact) You also need to include what you pay for your hour building, for modular. I believe you need around 250 hours TT, before you get your CPL. (note I am not update on the exact requirements anymore, just an approx. figure)

So including hour building it will put you to at least £60.000

2. Second: Type Rating - you will with 99% chance have to finance your OWN Type Rating. Which can be anything between £25.000 to £40.000 - and note you will NOT always have the chance to shop around, as certain companies wants you to do your TR with certain training providers.

3. Third: Starting salary at +£40K? :ugh:

Again I must ask you where do you get your information from?
I know guys doing the first 12 - 24 months on £1000 - £1500 a month after taxes. Add on top of that expenses such as commuting costs, living arrangements if you have to commute, if you in your 40's, you can't just uproot your family/children from school, and bring them to live in a 2.nd or 3.rd world country, just because you have a pipe dream of being a pilot.

Even a salary of £40K, you will struggle after taxes etc., as you will most likely have to have 2 different households.

At best the modular will cost you £90.000 including TR, if you achieve a perfect training record. £90.000 is not pocket change, and we have to work very HARD some of us, to get such money available. (of course not all work equally hard, but that would be off topic now)

So "jamesgrainge" get your facts right - and as you earlier mentioned that money is not the ultimate measurement and goal, take this fact, any other Pilot work, outside airlines, ex. turboprop, instructing and other flying work, you will not make anything close to £40.000. Maybe you should half the figure, and you will be a little closer to reality.

It's all about Decision making, which you will discover later in your pilot career, if you plan for this, this is one of the most important aspects of aviation. I got loads of advice before I started, some good, some bad, but you need the RIGHT information at various stages of your Decision Making process.
I would ask myself what is the worst that could happen, would I be able to live with that, I was in a very fortunate situation, and all played out very well. From end of training to my first job I waited 12 months, which was not bad considering my age.
I even exposed Ryanair for ageism, but that was not my battle, there was very little to gain for me to try fight the ageism battle.

I admit I was very lucky, right place, right time, and knew the right people, for me it was of course hard work, but getting the job was also 80% pure luck and timing.

This advice is for people + 40 (if you are 20 - 35 bracket I would give different advice) 36 - 40 is a grey area. I would generally say if you are finish training around 39 you should be fine, but if you start training at 40, and you have family, you need to consider the pitfalls.
A friend of mine, similar age to me, was in a good profession, lawyer, he left it all for following his dream, he even did P2F, desperate to get a job, paid own TR without a job, guess what? Now today he is still a lawyer, his family left him, his life changed forever.
I talk by experience, and first hand knowledge, know what you are getting into and than decide.

It's not about having regrets for what you did not do, it's about having regrets about what you lost on your journey.

[superflanker]

BusAirDriver, it sounds like you are not happy flying.

I understand giving advice to someone who is 40+ about hiring policies and about being away from family. I never could imagine that someone starting with more than 30 years (I am 25 and in april when i got my PPL, and before starting the ATPLs I used to think it would be near impossibe) could work in an airline, but apparently it can.

But again, training going modular can be done with 40.000€.
If you have to pay a TR, that means an airline actually hired you. For the people that are asking, I think that would mean succeding.

[jamesgrainge]

Bartolini offer a 0-atpl course for £40,000.

Most would anticipate a loan of £20,000 minimum for a TR.

This gives us a total spend of say £65k (give or take a few thousand)

Your sums are huge and seem to anticipate using expensive schools as a training provider, hence the reason thousands of students don't.

After line Ezy, RYR etc are offering £40k if not more assuming I am understanding the information and assuming the figures are correct on pilotjobswiki.

Ironic you mention facts

[BusAirDriver]

"superflanker"

"it sounds like you are not happy flying."

I am slightly confused and bemused by your comment. Where have I said I am not happy flying?

40.000 Euros, do you include hour building in that price? There is cheap, and there is cheap, if you can get PPL / CPL / ME / IR / ATPL theory / MCC and 250 hours TT for 40.000 Euros, than good luck on you. I assume you have not included that you also need to live during this period of training without much income. So I guess you need to add 18 - 24 months living cost on top of that figure - and hour building??


Not sure what FTO offers you 40.000 Euros for such a package giving you 250 hours, but than again there are some FTO's with better reputation than others, and who trains candidates to different level of standards. (again this is slightly of topic)

You are missing the point, getting a job does not mean you are successful, if you can't afford to main your commitment to your family / children.
As some people said here before, money is not everything, however I would equally say flying is not everything either, if it means the rest of your life falls apart.

Being 25 "Superflanker", with all respect, unless you have wife, children, mortgage, you are speaking out of your base of knowledge on this.
As I said you are 25, this advice does NOT apply for you, at 25 you have many options and the airlines will give you an interview.

Over 40, it's difficult to even get an interview if you have NO experience, this is based on personal experience. Why would you as 25 even worry about the "To Old" part, it does not apply for your situation.

However PPL / CPL / ME / IR / ATPL theory / MCC and 250 hours TT for 40.000 Euros, I am not so sure about that. Many people who calculate the modular, forget about the hour building, that is not free.

[superflanker]

I said that because you achieved a very difficult thing, and you are telling everyone in a similar situation not to do it!

250 hs? You need 200 for a modular CPL, and 150 for integrated.
40.000€ is cheap. 45-50K is perhaps more realistic.

As I said in another post, I don't think this amount of money is significan in the life of a men. I think there in the UK you have salaries of about that money a year, am I right?

Do you know that Audi A4 that you could buy in some years? Just forget about it and get a CPL.

[redsnail]

I am some what bemused by folks who are starting out in this industry arguing to folks who have spent several decades in the industry that we don't know what we're talking about.

Nothing we say will stop you from spending a fortune and trying your luck. I wish you well. However, there is a huge difference between what the sales people will tell you at any flight school (especially L3, OAA, FTE etc) versus reality.

Historically, as in the last 10 years, the vast majority of 250 hour pilots who have obtained a reasonably well paid jet FO job in the UK have come from the above 3 flight schools.

The industry is cyclical and particularly sensitive to the economic cycles. Right now there's a hiring boom. In 2 years time, there may well not be. (Probably lay offs if history's lessons are to be heeded).
A single 25 yo has time on his/her side to weather the troughs, a +40 yo does not.

As stated many times, if you can afford to burn through £50K and more, earn £15-25K for the next 5 years without negatively impacting your family's life, then great, go for it with our blessings. If you can afford £100K+, earn nothing while training, and earn £20-£30k for 2-3 years (and pay rent/loan/mortgage) and not negatively impact your family, again, go for it. These are averaged numbers, and assume you'll get a job soon after completion.

If you don't you'll need to budget 6-12 monthly IR checks to keep yourself current. That is expensive.

[BusAirDriver]

I said that because you achieved a very difficult thing, and you are telling everyone in a similar situation not to do it!

250 hs? You need 200 for a modular CPL, and 150 for integrated.
40.000€ is cheap. 45-50K is perhaps more realistic.

As I said in another post, I don't think this amount of money is significan in the life of a men. I think there in the UK you have salaries of about that money a year, am I right?

Do you know that Audi A4 that you could buy in some years? Just forget about it and get a CPL.

You seem to forget / ignore the cost of typerating. Although your calculation of getting your CPL at 200 hours, you will still need to hour build at least 100 Hours, most likely more, as you also require 100 hours PIC. 100 hours hour building will be around £15.000 in a C152.

TR another £30.000,

So even if you manage to do your courses at £45.000, you still looking at £90.000

For some of is this is a significant amount of money, for you maybe it's not.
And you try to tell your wife that she has to sell her Audi A4 that she brings the children to school with, because you want to blow £90.000 on training, where you only have 5% chance to get a job, where you will be making £1200 - £1400 a month for the first 2 years, after you spent 2 years training, that's total of 4 years - she what she will say to you?

As I said, you are 25, you don't even have an idea of what the starter pay in the business is. Again, this is thread / replies I have been giving does NOT apply to you, because you are just a babyface still.

[jamesgrainge]

Your figures are off. 200 hours before the skills test, of which 100 PIC, 5 at night.

Hour building £10,000 or less depending on country and aircraft desired. PPL as little as £6500, ATPL £2500,CPL ME IR £16,000 at Bartolini. MCC + JOC- your choice. None of this comes anywhere close to your supposed £90,000.

Again, the wage for RYR and EZY are stated after line training of above £40k, unless the wikijobs figures are incorrect or I misunderstand them.

As was stated by another poster, if a company wants you to pay for a TR, you have a job flying that aircraft. Most would consider that an investment worth making.

Where are these airlines paying £1500 a month, I'll put them on my list as "most likely to hire me".

[redsnail]

Cadet pilots in easyJet start on a lot less money. Their first year at easyJet they are contractors, ie not directly employed by easyJet.

[jamesgrainge]

Ah ok, I watched the program on ITV and they said £40k. Where do you get your information from?

Lucky the modular route won't take you to easyJet first as a general rule.

[BusAirDriver]

Don't believe everything you see on TV.

[redsnail]

Where do you get your information from?
Husband is a long term captain at eJ in the UK. He's also one of the union reps there.
I'm a 10 year captain at NetJets Europe.

[jamesgrainge]

Interesting that EJ allowed it then.

[BusAirDriver]

Maybe you should see the program and see that it's sales program for CTC training. Cost £120.000 the ticket.

[jamesgrainge]

And there's me thinking it was just an interesting program for ITV. I'm far too naive for this game

[gfunc]

You can compare some modular course costs here:
http://https://www.wingsalliance.eu/training/pilot-training-budget-calculator/

The normal caveats apply regarding living costs/loss of earnings etc.

[superflanker]

You seem to forget / ignore the cost of typerating. Although your calculation of getting your CPL at 200 hours, you will still need to hour build at least 100 Hours, most likely more, as you also require 100 hours PIC. 100 hours hour building will be around £15.000 in a C152.

TR another £30.000,

So even if you manage to do your courses at £45.000, you still looking at £90.000

For some of is this is a significant amount of money, for you maybe it's not.
And you try to tell your wife that she has to sell her Audi A4 that she brings the children to school with, because you want to blow £90.000 on training, where you only have 5% chance to get a job, where you will be making £1200 - £1400 a month for the first 2 years, after you spent 2 years training, that's total of 4 years - she what she will say to you?

As I said, you are 25, you don't even have an idea of what the starter pay in the business is. Again, this is thread / replies I have been giving does NOT apply to you, because you are just a babyface still.

Believe me, it's significant money for me, otherwise I would not be working and studing at the same time. :p.

I understand that the answers that you gave were not for me, and I know that you know better than I do about the situation (never meant to offend you).
I was just trying to give a more optimistic point of view for those who were asking.

Best luck to all wannabes and pilots!

[pug]

Anecdotally, I would conclude that anyone seriously considering going down this route at a later stage in life would be best served by gaining employment within aviation in a non-flying role, and learn as much as they can about the training & recruitment system.

Not only does this get your face known, but it also injects some reality into the 'dream'. People in the industry are also willing to help when they can.

Just my 2p worth.

[BusAirDriver]

Believe me, it's significant money for me, otherwise I would not be working and studing at the same time. :p.

I understand that the answers that you gave were not for me, and I know that you know better than I do about the situation (never meant to offend you).
I was just trying to give a more optimistic point of view for those who were asking.

Best luck to all wannabes and pilots!


GIVE A MORE OPTIMISTIC POINT OF VIEW? :ugh:
Why should I lie? Why should I encourage someone to take a risk, that can lead them to loosing all?

It's much easier to recover in life if you try and fail at 25, than you try and fail at 45.

[BusAirDriver]

If I had my time again and had to start from scratch.
I wouldn't entertain the idea of becoming an airline pilot.
I feel that the whole airline culture, from the top down is rotten to the core.
I have nothing but contempt for the banks and some schools too.
We all know who I'm talking about.

Don't get me wrong, I love aviation. I always have.
I've been in the business for over 40 years.
From apprentice aircraft mechanic to major airline captain.
But the world I grew up in is far removed from today's.
And I think it's getting worse.

What I'd do, is either set my goals lower and be content as a air taxi/charter pilot.
I wouldn't entertain the notion of borrowing 100 Large, ever, under any circumstances.
Get a CPL/IR by all means, as cheaply as possible.
But borrowing money for an airlines MPL? NO!

Or I may work towards being an owner/operator.
This is where the money is.

But starting in your 40s and jumping through all those hoops.
Just for 'the dream'.
No, the dream in reality is a nightmare.

I encourage all of you to spend more time outside the professional pilot training section of this site.
Look into the interview, terms and contracts section too.
Don't stop there, look into the worldwide part as well, and see what people are putting up with.
It's sickening.

Unfortunately I can't disagree with to much of what you say, and I have not been a lifetime within aviation, I have many times been safety pilot for newbies, only to see the same people 12 - 24 months later, being completely exhausted and jaded from the work, and to see them like this at 25, knowing they have still another 40 years left, is a very sad sight.

Have a read at TC's, it seems many here havent, and believe this is the road to great riches and lots of gold, it isn't.

[BusAirDriver]

As short follow up to "button push ignored" - working full time in the "Short haul" Lo Co - full time over 5 - 10 years, if you approaching 45 -50 and have family commitments, a life outside aviation, extremely hard.

This is the reason that we today see this becoming more and more a part time job, as the pressure and long working hours, makes it extremely hard to do this job full time with the way the companies are running their operations at the moment.

This is another aspect that many of you who want to start in training in your 40's need to consider. Considering that you can only survive this long term if you are part time, than that means you need wave goodbye to the + £100K salary when you reach the LHS, as it is extremely fatiguing to work Short Haul like Ryanair etc. full time and do close to 900 hours every year.

As an example, let's just use the figure of a Captain, pay is approx. £120.000 before tax. Example flight time is 900 hours, you will do approx. 1800 duty hours. The 900 hours is just your block hours, duty hours is approx. close to double. Just out of interest for the maths, we say you do 1650 duty hours.

After taxes, pension, and National insurance, you will have around £5500 left net a month. For 12 months this is approx. £66.000 net. Not bad is it?

Now you work 1650 duty hours, this means your average hourly pay is approx. £40 an hour after tax. This is the hourly rate for a Captain, and FO, you can divide the figure by approx. 3 or 4 depending on what company you work for, and experience level.

Your peak season is in ALL the school holidays of your children, so for you to get leave the same time as your family / children is like winning the lottery, it might happen once every 5 to 10 years if all works out.

[jamesgrainge]

When a jet engine spools up I get a rush of adrenaline through my body. Worth every penny, spent, or lost in wages in my opinion.

"Choose a job you love, and you will never have to work a day in your life."

[Rouretan]

I am just going to throw this into the ring, so you can have a laugh (at me?), and maybe make the 50 year olds feel REALLY GOOD!

Yes I have made a few bad choices and now I am 60 (only just), and wish that I was flying every day of my life instead of once a fortnight out of the aéroclub.

I am happily married with three grown up children, no mortgage and still ten or fifteen years of work ahead of me (I am self employed surveyor and part time ATPL lecturer in Air Law).

I have my PPL (I fly mostly Piper 28) and am based in LFMD.

The big question, have I really left it too late, is my dream of some (any) commercial flying activity, now just a dream, or is there still a niche out there for someone like me?

Is it even too late (not worth) putting the effort in for the CPL? :rolleyes:

[BusAirDriver]

When a jet engine spools up I get a rush of adrenaline through my body. Worth every penny, spent, or lost in wages in my opinion.

"Choose a job you love, and you will never have to work a day in your life."

Equation is different if you are 25 or 45, you are kind of missing the point completely. :ugh:

[jamesgrainge]

I don't think so. From a modular perspective there has to be something that drives you. 5, 15, 25 or 45, if you press your nose up against the glass at a departure lounge and can't imagine anything more satisfying than sitting in that cockpit, or the rush from advancing the throttle, and that incredible moment when you break a grey rainy surface and into crisp beautiful sunshine, and it makes you feel 5 years old all over again.

That's what I feel, I would suggest if others feel the same, regardless of age, they are forever going to look at jets going over and think, "what if?".

Forgive me for being all wide eyed and optimistic, but there is really nothing else I could see myself doing now, and I would recommend everyone who has the opportunity to at least try, to do so.

[shaun ryder]

Rouretan, do the CPL if you want to sharpen up some of your flying skills, I doubt you will get a job in a multi crew environment because of your age. Single pilot AOC ops are out as well, as far as I can remember if you are 60+ then you would have to fly with a rated/qualified safety pilot. Maybe get a job towing gliders or something, perhaps instructing as that may be an option.

With regards to the over 40 mid life crisis mob, well.. I have to ask the question; if the passion has been burning all your life then where has the motivation been all these years? Why no PPL, why no airforce career? People with life long ambitions of being pilots more often than not try and be pilots, or at least work around aircraft!

There is some good advice that's been dished out above, realities of that advice are very real. Airline recruitment departments have never been banging the doors down of 40 year old ab initio pilots. The new hires in this category are usually twenty somethings to early thirty year olds, usually of a very high calibre! You will not only be fighting the recruitment team but you will up against some pretty sharp malleable cookies keen to impress (probably all with first time test passes) contrary to what some think, newbies with no experience are sometimes asked about this.

Earning potential wise, you have to seriously consider that should you make it through training, the best you can realistically hope for is a regional turboprop/jet job with a pay cheque to match. That means earnings in the low thirties max until you are qualified to be considered for a command, perhaps 4-5 years. You will be praying that the market has not turned when you finally pass out because if it does, you will be left with ever diminishing skills and some useless bits of paper in a blue plastic book! This is when the real realities kick in, you will effectively be unemployable as the sea of experienced out of work rated pilots take whatever scraps are on offer. You will be obliged to maintain your precious new skills at great cost to yourself!

Money and time to burn? Then go for it. Looking to scratch a life long aviation itch? Go and get a PPL, trust me it's very fulfilling and a damn sight cheaper.

[Desk-pilot]

Just for info as it might help some of you wrestling with the decision. I gave up a secure final salaried IT career at 34 and followed the dream. After an integrated course at Oxford I spent 18 months looking for a first flying job and only got one because of Oxford's referral. During that time I had to fall back on my IT skills or we'd have lost the house.

I spent 5 years flying for a UK regional - good fun, tough rosters though but great people and a lowish salary. Eventually got on a regional jet and to be honest that was the best 2 years of my career - superb aeroplane, small local base, brilliant camaraderie and decentish money. I loved it and would never have left! A company restructure though forced me back onto turboprops with an attendant pay cut so I looked elsewhere and managed to get into a big legacy carrier on shorthaul. It was my lifetime ambition realised.

The problem is the reality doesn't live up to the hype - I was junior so spent every weekend away in Europe, my hobbies and family life were none existent and I missed all my mates at the regional. It's tough going into work day after day and not knowing anyone you work with while your family are at home missing you all weekend.

I was so fed up I considered calling the old regional and asking for my job back - came very close many many times. In the end I decided the best option was going part time at the legacy. That's addressed some of the issues with lifestyle and the money still beats the regional.

The problem is because of the lack of camaraderie, the long EASA days and the changing face/culture of aviation that approaching 50 I'm now looking back and wondering if it was indeed worth it (and I was one of the lucky ones in terms of career progression).

I think the truth is you may be better off sticking with a current well paid (IT, accountancy etc) career and going part time. You will be able to enjoy more time with your family, more time with your friends asnd hobbies and you will be able to retire earlier! If I'd stayed in IT I'd still have a final salary pension, my mortgage would be paid off and I would be planning to retire by 55 to spend time playing guitar, going for bike rides and doing other stuff all of which is more fun than flying heavy metal.

Is the actual flying bit better than IT - yes, but with IT I'd be home again tonight in 8 hours whereas I won't be home for several days and that begins to become a drag especially as you get older.

I'm only giving my perspective and I hope it's helpful. Most people who have been flying for a while eventually begin to regard it as a job like any other and would rather be doing something else. All my pilot mates feel the same, many are trying to develop businesses to find a way out. I too was the kid with the airband at the airshows, I stood by the fence at airports, built my own flight simulator, built airfix kits and all the rest of it but cost cutting and EASA is sapping everybody's enthusiasm now and mostly you'll just feel tired of it.

If you do go ahead don't be taken in by the glossy megacarriers and the big jets - you'll often have far more fun flying a turboprop with your mates out of a small airfield - trust me!

[BusAirDriver]

I don't think so. From a modular perspective there has to be something that drives you. 5, 15, 25 or 45, if you press your nose up against the glass at a departure lounge and can't imagine anything more satisfying than sitting in that cockpit, or the rush from advancing the throttle, and that incredible moment when you break a grey rainy surface and into crisp beautiful sunshine, and it makes you feel 5 years old all over again.

That's what I feel, I would suggest if others feel the same, regardless of age, they are forever going to look at jets going over and think, "what if?".

Forgive me for being all wide eyed and optimistic, but there is really nothing else I could see myself doing now, and I would recommend everyone who has the opportunity to at least try, to do so.

Interesting, as we have all been there. Guess, what my last holiday, I could not stand the thought of having to go to the airport also in my time off, and booked the Train to travel, and it was just amazing to not have to go trough the whole airport debacle.

"shaun ryder" & "Desk-pilot" have plenty of good advice in their posts, there comes a stage when "being a pilot" is no longer the most important thing in life, this is what you yet have failed to understand "jamesgrainge" , which is perfectly understandable, as you have not yet had pilot job.

After few years, and so far WITHOUT EXCEPTION, have I seen the trend be from enthusiasm to a stage where people look forward to every day off day have, and try to figure out how can they find out a healthy balance between work and life, there is more to life than flying, and I am sure by the time you get 40 - 45, you will have changed your views a lot from today.

[wiggy]

....I too was the kid with the airband at the airshows, I stood by the fence at airports, built my own flight simulator, built airfix kits and all the rest of it but cost cutting and EASA is sapping everybody's enthusiasm now and mostly you'll just feel tired of it

Yep, that was me as well...Even as a long in the tooth long hauler I think that is fair comment IMHO, and I don't know how long my short haul colleagues rosters are really really sustainable. I would also second the previous comments about the need to seriously consider some form of part time working if as a relative wrinkly (where are we with a definition of that? Thirty plus...) you are hoping to hold onto some semblance of family life or a life outside work.

[MotoRinzler]

At the risk of causing sparks...

I fully understand that this 'reality check' will be viewed as a service to the 'dreamy wannabee'. Yet one would also expect a balanced view.

Why people need to feel that the advice given has been wasted simply because others don't tip their hat in complete thanks and agreement and give the response you wanted, is ironic when it is described as the wannabee not getting the answer they wanted as the issue. If there is an imbalance of experience and knowledge, then educate and explain.

I truly value the responses I received... otherwise, I would not have even bothered to ask, let alone discuss and debate. My probing and response were to dig a little deeper into understanding. Not simply because I didn't get the answer I wanted. After all... if you all just said.. Yes you'll be fine. How does that help? without understanding why.

Some have said I was looking for validation. In my case - I was looking to see what sort of things made or not made you employable early 40's. I was looking to understand if age was the only issue.

At the moment I'm left with the impression it's all about: don't bother because you'll never earn the big money, and you'll have to work weekends type of responses. Yeh if you're rich then throw away 100k. Can I live on 25K. Can I take not finding a job.

I can't argue that 60 - 70K would be nice to spend on ... errrr... something else that I'd think I might want instead of flying. I could split it for example equally over the next 15 years (which was said to be my career return on investment time) and have all of 4.5k annually. Not a sum to be sniffed at... but is 4.5K a year worth a dream or a chance? Personal choices time.

In the most part... I can't say I actually found answers to the actual questions like does ATPL TK pass marks make any difference, does the school, the flight report, the hour building activities... or is it all about age.

For those that comment about money. Personally. Once you pay the bills: The amount you 'make' is for peacocks only (personal view). I for one have no need to earn a set amount to feel successful and be happy with life. Remember this isn't about how 'nice' more money is... it's about how 'Successful' I feel and my measure of 'achieving something'. In my world, it's earning enough to pay the bills and put food on the table for the family, keep them safe and give them moderate normal experiences whilst enjoying how I earn the funds to do it. Keep my family safe and make sure my wife and children know they are loved. I'm willing to do a job I hate if it's needed, 2 or even three jobs, but we're talking about being happy and a measure of success here not just providing.

Can I live on earning 25K? I smile... any idea what normal households bring home in this part of the UK (no need to respond). I work shifts, 6am starts, then 8pm finishes. 6on , 3 off. The finishes depend on the job in hand and what comes up... it could be extended to 4am (example) with no notice. 365 days.. xmas off every 3 or 4 years. Holidays are hard to take and I am in harm's way (literally) on a daily basis. I do enjoy it I admit, or I'd stop and stack shelves in Aldi. With a few (1 or 2) hrs overtime a week I'd be almost on the same money for no responsibility or risk, 9-5pm and probably no weekends. My salary is less than an EJ type rating! The last research I did indicated that even prop work paid around 28K plus flight/sector pay, increasing year on year.

In relation to spending time at home with family etc.. Anyone who is going to try and paint the picture that not spending time with the family on weekends, or not being free to take a holiday without any issues as some huge drawback and unforgivable situation; is a little out of touch with the rest of us normal working folk, who for the privilege of putting food on the table must at best (for the most part) do a job we neither love or hate.

If you have the support of your family network (what ever that may be for you) inside your own particular family dynamic, then I don't see the issue. Every family is different. Some need lt's of money to be happy, some needs a lot of 'you' to be happy, some just need 'you' to be happy and be there when you can.

You can scream 'reality check' as much as you want, but the fact is... some people spend almost the same amount of funds a CPL needs on a brand new Audi A8, a boat, a holiday, a mature students degree, landscaping the garden or on season tickets to watch football. Some just drink it away in the pub every Saturday away from the family with mates over the course of a lifetime. Some even save it and invest it, then die never spending it. Agan... being willing or prepared to spend 70K is not a measure of how easy money is throw away. It is a personal decision and is quite complex and different I would imagine for everyone.

The 'COST' in relation to funds, family, sacrifice, hardship etc will be different to everyone.

Sucess is much I suspect the same. For different people, different drivers will dictate their view of success. For some it's money. Wages, Status, perks, uniform, bragging rights, a childhood dream, or just the unexplainable sense of wanting and belonging without a real explanation as to why + opportunity and have a chance to go for it.

What makes some pilots employable over others.....? So far age is said to a factor but not a deciding factor, as there are plenty of low hour youngsters without a job as well. For all I know, it could do with the math test scores on the selection or the address on my CV.

I've decided to concentrate on a PPL first.. as without that I can't even move regardless of prospects or funds. Never know... I might even be happy enough pottering around in a little C152 laughing at all you guys away from home, bored at 38k ft disillusioned with a job you once dreamed of doing, having contracts cut, reduced perks, medicals, pilotless Airliner entry dates. Or I'll still be looking up like a kid with a grin on my face :)

Ironically... The cost of keeping a SEP on a PPL valid by general self-hire is about the same as the IRME annual revalidation. At least I know that if I can afford to get it, I can afford to keep it, thus keeping the ATPL TK alive and all valid. Rusty is another thing... but if we're talking about simply ticking a box to keep the rating alive. The cost is equal to that of a PPL SEP rating.... which I can do with what I do now. So worst thing is train, and continue to do what I'm doing....

[BusAirDriver]

"MotoRinzler"

First you should try to read the posts properly, and digest them as they are intended to be. Most of us guys who have been few years or many years in the job, are giving our time to give our advice, understandably they are subjective, but NOBODY has any interest to deter you from taking it up, although this could avoid regrets in the future.

First you need to adjust your figure upwards, you will need to include a TR in your equation. What you have to remember, that when the novelty has worn of, this becomes a job, admittedly most of us love the job, but the way it has changed with TC's, the only way for many to survive without working themselves to death is to work part time.

Age is a negative drawback if you want to get a job in the UK, with low hours, little experience, I would say getting a first UK job with an airline will be very hard. The selection procedures for various companies are different, and much of the initial selection is geared up towards abilities that at least for me would have been easy to do when I was 20, a bit harder to complete when you 45. Psychometric tests etc.

You talk about first time passes etc., and how the companies view this. First of all these things are not often decisive, however if you have many fails and resits, it could be viewed as you are a "slow" learner, and this could be indication of possible future training issues.
Because they have so many applications in that category, the companies can cherry pick the ones who have all first time passes, specially on the flying skills test, I would say this is more important, rather than the ATPL theory.

But to give you an example this is few years back, and was just a rumour I heard, but they would only consider your application if your ATPL score was average of 90%, and you had all first time passes on your CPL /IR, they could do this, because they had thousands of applications.
The selection of age, can be done in many ways, trough tests that are simply easier for someone to do when they are 20 than when they are 45.

I have heard guys getting into other positions with companies, and manged to get themselves into the flying seat.

So initially get your figures right, £80.000- £90.000 - and expect that get a first job you will have to move abroad, being paid peanuts, now if you feel that is something you can live with, never being home, not just because you working long shifts, but because you will be away for 7 - 14 days in a stretch, to get 3-4 days at home in between, than you are increasing your odds slightly to get a first job.

You will with 99% certainty NOT get a job in your own backyard, and most likely not even in your own country. After 2 - 3 years, and few thousand hours than this is very different, but until than that's how it is.

I know experienced guys in their 40's - 50's, with thousands of hours on Jets, that example don't even bother to apply for BA, because they don't want to start writing essays, doing Verbal reasoning, Maths tests and silly computer games to get trough to the interview stage in the selection, this is the way many companies make natural hurdles, that greatly disadvantages older candidates, and many simply don't even bother to apply.

Also if you was so passionate, why did you not take your PPL before, example I started my PPL when I was 17, sure I had a long gap until I took my CPL/MEIR etc., but it shows it's not just a midlife crisis.

Furthermore you talk about renewal / current costs, first keeping your SEP valid, at least you have fun flying for those hours, renewing your IR, is a skill that needs to be maintained, which is not very easy to do if you are never flying.
You than have to include the cost of some extra sim training, and if you get an interview and get trough to the sim, you need to add a few thousand pounds to help you prepare for a selection sim.

The Sim and the Personal interview is probably where most people fail.
Initial advice is do first a Class 1 medical, than start on PPL, see how you get on with that, time to study and how you enjoy the flying, and take it from there.

Regarding the money aspect, it seems it does not matter for you if you make £1000 - £1400 a month, with 2 households, than it's just to go ahead.

[shaun ryder]

Moto Rinzler let me guess, is it the highways agency you work for?

Barriers to an over forty year old male being employed as a minimum hours commercial pilot:

1. Your age.
It has to be said, you will be viewed as a training risk because of this. The training environment can be ruthless and very demanding. As unfair as it may sound, older candidates are deemed to be slower learners and unable to progress as quickly as their younger cohorts. You will want to excel in all facets of initial flight training. Modular training may be an issue as you will not have had your progress monitored. It is without doubt that airlines employing ab initios prefer the younger candidate.

2. CV.
When applying for jobs, your previous background from what I can see will include no aviation experience. Why now they may ask? Your experience will not be commensurate with age. Your CV/application is likely to languish whilst more favourable options are explored and filed above yours, A REALITY! I have personally watched this process with my own eyes, days if not weeks of work put in by a candidate to perfect an application that is passed over immediately because of any one particular thing. Just ask yourself, what is going to make my application stand out from all of the others? Unfortunately, your life experience won't make you stand out against 22 year old Tarquin with a first in biology and a 98% average in his ATPLs!

3. Flexibility.
Airlines will require a lot of it from a noob. You would need to prove this unequivocally at interview and make them believe it. It's all been seen before! Pilots that are based away from home can prove to be a thorn in the side for a company. Relevance to yourself being perhaps a regional operator with a number of bases, they will indeed try and recruit local candidates for this very reason. Married with children away from home will be discussed
post interview and could be significant.

The positives of employing 'older guys' in the right seat can be summed up in that they are less likely to move on. We all know that this is rubbish unless you land an A320 or 737 job on your doorstep (money will always be an issue), a medium jet skipper can earn £120k plus and you don't want any of that? What are the real positives if any because I can not think of one unless you come with previous experience. This is a harsh analysis I know but you rarely if ever bump into 40 year old first officers with just 200 hours in their back pocket. Sorry to use the word REALITY again but almost every brand new guy I fly with is under 35 years of age, the split being about 50/50 ab initio vs previous airline experience and almost no flying instructors interestingly enough. The oldies, +40 (sorry guys) tend to be ex turboprop skippers who have moved onto jets, some of whom have been waiting an age to unshackle themselves from their previous existence. Flying commercially is not a social activity, it is a high stress environment. I personally don't care for 'life experience'. I want the guy next to me to be a switched on cookie with a good dose of modesty thrown in. You mention being 'headstrong' and taking the lead, how would this apply on the flight deck? It's a fine balancing act.

Starting with a blank sheet would be a good idea, dump the preconceptions and a drink a pint of humility. When seasoned commercial pilots offer you real world advice about what it's like in THEIR industry you may want to take note as it's certainly no picnic starting out in this game. Sometimes you have to walk away and bite your tongue if you don't like what you hear, just like we do every six months after walking out of the simulator ;-)!

In this overtly PC world I feel obliged to say yes go for it, you can achieve your goal, you can achieve anything if you put your mind to it. Hypothetically, if it was me knowing what I know about this business I wouldn't do it. I would be building my children's future on the foundations that I have already laid, playing roulette with my families finances because I wanted finally to become a pilot would not be an option. But that's just me.

[jamesgrainge]

As an interesting aside, the average pay for a UK pilot as of 2016 was £86,855 (BBC figures) and was listed 2nd highest out of 328 chosen professions.

Yes an average, but considerably more than the £1400 a month promised by some posters here.

[Basil Fawlty1]

If you're under 35 you shouldn't even be looking at this thread 😊. You're plenty young enough - go for it if it's what you want to do.

For those over 35 and, especially so, for those over 40 it becomes much more of a risk. The notion of being 40 something and having always wanted to be a pilot with no flying or aviation experience is simply not credible to recruiters. If you're in this latter age group then IMHO it's worth considering the following questions. The more of these you can say yes to the more chance you have of succeeding. If it's a no for all or most of them then it's really a risk too far.

1) Do you have no dependents ?
2) Can you afford the training (including TR) without taking on any debt ?
3) Do you have a fallback plan if it doesn't work out ?
4) Have you paid off your mortgage ?
5) Do you have savings/a career that can cover you after training whilst looking for a job ?
6) Do you have experience in the aviation industry ?

[BusAirDriver]

As an interesting aside, the average pay for a UK pilot as of 2016 was £86,855 (BBC figures) and was listed 2nd highest out of 328 chosen professions.

Yes an average, but considerably more than the £1400 a month promised by some posters here.

:ugh:
The words I would like to express would get me banned from this forum so I suggest you fill in the blanks yourself : :mad:


It seems people have a selective selection of what information they wish to use to justify their actions and desires, however distant they are from the REAL reality of the world.

I guess we are ALL just LIARS when we throw such figures out in the air. The movie Dumb and Dumber comes to mind, not so much for the content, rather for the generic title some people deserve.

[BusAirDriver]

You WON? So you do not need to pay for it, well that's a no brainer than.

[MotoRinzler]

shaun ryder : Thank you.

Although I may offend other posters, who I'm sure may think "I said that". I found your post structured in such a way that I'm left with the feeling I understand what you have explained.

Yes. There are times to bite one's tongue. But I'd hope this forum isn't such a setting. That said, I'd like to tease a few things out if I can.

What I do find interesting is the range of opinions from "seasoned commercial pilots" who are giving advice on "their" industry. This isn't a dig, but hardly any of you say the same thing for the same reasons, which makes it difficult to know which seasoned commercial pilot to pay more heed to :)

Like any two humans; not everything that is said/typed is received in the way it may have been intended, nor will two individuals completely agree all the time on any given subject. Different personalities and experiences lead to different positions, and therefore different advice.

My aim in approaching the forum/thread was to gain an insight into what makes one pilot more employable than another, not limited to airline employment. The context of the question was, of course, my own situation, because I was asking for my own understanding and wish to relate what ever responses I gained to myself. Yet my age was not the main question :) although It's become the main focus of the responses, as had Jet airlines.

* I understand (from reading.... a lot of these type of posts), that age IS a factor, yet stories can be found to the contrary all over. Equally, the issue with older guys is never really explained with regards; is it all about the actual age or is there other 'employability' issues. Personality, experiences, soft skills, technical skills or just an unfortunate choice of mis matching socks at interview.

* I find it hard to believe that most pilots must be singles, with no family, house, or routes to affect flexibility if having a family is such an issue on gaining entry to the airlines.

I would expect the issue of moving to equally apply to ALL candidates and current staff regardless of age. Again. This might also explain the ability for turbo prop guys to remain turbo prop guys and not folow the oney and jump into a RHS of a jet, or for a person to remain with a company because it doesn't create the need to shift about constantly. My point here is that I think most careers would present the need to re-locate for it initially, and thus moving to setup somewhere isn't particularly a new concept. It isn't for me anyway. Having said that. The effect on my own family unit is not lost on me, it' simlpy a family deision and somthin one would hope (as it is in my case) would be sorted and understood before £XYZ has been spent.


There are good inputs in this thread all the way from the start; yet complete contradictions from one poster to another. The difficulty is that "seasoned commercial pilots" telling us about "their" industry don't say the same thing :)

An example of this is a previous poster on this thread indicated that the recruiters would be thinking 'could you spend a long time in a small space with this person', inferring posative personality, and 'life' skills count as a positive.

Yet you state you don't care for 'life experience, all you want is a switched on cookie with modesty'.

I can argue with neither, as I can relate it to my own work situation where I'd actually want your switched on cookie AND someone who you can spend hrs with in a small space

I understand that recruitment sim checks are failed by candidates due to both over and under assertive personality traits, as much as technical skill. No mention of age relating to standards though surprisingly. Or that could just be because the older guys don't make it that far. I'd be interested in the stats for new MEIR issues relating to the age of applicant; then seeing how much of a % over 40 actually represents. Then run the same for new entries into work and see if it's all adding up.

I also found interesting research as to CRM development and flight deck personalities, and how lack of flight deck communication has been a factor in accidents. That culture differences in the ME where the captain is said to be God and the FO simply does what he's told yet Euro model is monitoring and assisting yet without blindly following without clarity or briefings as and when required.

BusAirDrvier: I see you getting increasingly frustrated. I can actually see where James is coming from as not being 'in' the industry we only have external references to go on. And of course... you will know yourself. They show a different picture of salary than you are showing.

The lowest airline basic salary I've seen is Flybe Turboprops at £28k. Rising year on year. Jets being around £40k. These, of course, are probably not bonded. Are you able to give some real life current examples to contrast? I know you used £1400pm but is this current and for Airlines or other work?

I'm not trying to 'call you out'; I simply can't find that level of pay anywhere other than ONE corp jet setup that takes low hrs.


General question (not age related);

How does the license and or medical insurance work? Is it like a critical illness insurance that in the event of you failing a medical, losing the CPL, one gets a large payout to compensate for the loss of earnings moving fwds?

What sort of pension deals are normal?

Age question: Assuming I accept that the Airline see older guys as slower and more of a training risk. Which on face value as a general comment I might be willing to accept.

May I ask how old you experienced guys are? Who of you are Captains, and at what age did you do your command courses? When was the last time you went through a TR?
Do you feel that you (as you are getting older) are finding it difficult to continue to pass the sim checks? Would you say that as you have got older (regardless of how old you are) you find it hard to keep up with the new young blood in the RHS straight from CTC and the like? Do you see ANY difference in the Modular pilots vs Integrated? Would any of you encourage your children to follow you into the industry?

[Bealzebub]

In answer to your general questions:

Loss of licence cover pays out an insured sum if you lose your licence through no fault of your own. It is a lump sum payout and like most insurance comes with a whole raft of qualifying criteria. Given that it is assured that you will ultimately lose your licence the premiums rise with age.

Pension deals reflect the general economy. Final salary pension schemes are almost extinct for new entrants. Money purchase schemes are the norm and as in the wider economy they vary from employer to employer. Employer schemes in the U.K. might typically comprise an employer contribution of 7-10% of your basic salary together with your own voluntary contributions to the tax allowable annual and lifetime limits. Remember that retirement in this profession is currently compulsory at age 65 (and medical standards may force an earlier effective retirement age). State pension age is rising in the near term to 66 and 67. It is very likely this will increase over the coming years. This can place a particular importance on the retirement planning for professional pilots.

I am in my late "fifties" I did my command course at age 28. I last went through a new type rating course (from Boeing to Airbus) 3 years ago. I cannot say I find it it difficult to pass the sim checks, because I know what is expected and apply the necessary learning criteria to maintain the required standards. Importantly, I can also balance a great deal of relevant past experience to whatever the current requirements demand. The new cadets come from intensive learning backgrounds. They are on a steep learning curve, and their keenness, application and determination most definetaly keeps you on your toes. Again, it is an aspect where relevant experience provides a weighted counterbalance. Almost all of the cadets I see are from an integrated and full time training background. Pilots from other training backgrounds are likely to have worked their way up through stepping stone jobs, and likely other airlines. Experience in those roles, together with determination, application and a healthy dose of luck, should ordinarily provide for a good pilot, They are however significantly different career paths.

If any of my children truly wanted an aviation career (one has) then yes I would encourage them to fulfill that path. Not to "follow me" because that path is long trodden and a lot of it no longer exists. They would have to tread their own path and have a strong appreciation and understanding of the realities involved.

[MotoRinzler]

Bealzebub.... that's one of the most helpful responses. Thank you.

[jamesgrainge]

:ugh:
The words I would like to express would get me banned from this forum so I suggest you fill in the blanks yourself : :mad:


It seems people have a selective selection of what information they wish to use to justify their actions and desires, however distant they are from the REAL reality of the world.

I guess we are ALL just LIARS when we throw such figures out in the air. The movie Dumb and Dumber comes to mind, not so much for the content, rather for the generic title some people deserve.

I am simply presenting a fact from the BBC website, if you wish to tell me it's wrong, criticise them, not me.

[BusAirDriver]

Just because you find an article on BBC website, does not make it FACT.

Rather you should study various airlines TC's, instead of just basing it on Senior FO's or Captain.

It is not really relevant considering it will take you 5 - 10 years before you will be in the LHS, in this time you need to complete your training, find work, survive renewal costs, pay for Sim sessions while you are applying for work, and live. If you are a 40 with 2 - 3 children and wife, this is a complete different equation from being 25 and with few or no commitments.

If you fail to see this difference, well than this is your problem to lack SA.

[BusAirDriver]

"MotoRinzler" I will rather PM you on these details if you are interested with answers to some of the questions you ask, as I don't wish to put this onto a public forum.

From my experience, I have not met many who said they would recommend this career for their children, I would not discourage my children, but I would not encourage it either.

Although I am not a big fan of integrated courses like CTC / Oxford, as I think they "over-charge" training costs, however if coming attached with a guaranteed job, it's one of the better options to choose. I did not go that way myself.

I believe all your questions have been answered regarding reasons "age" is an issue, and what you need to understand, HR are overall looking for special treats in candidates, there will be positives and negatives with all, but example trough course like CTC / Oxford, the airlines are actively shaping the pilots in their own image, like they want them to be. And to be fair, they have had great success with this so far, either we agree or disagree in this.

Regarding starting salaries for pilots, I believe a few you need to do some more research, so you can determine the reality of the pay after tax.

[MotoRinzler]

Understood. PM me as needed

[redsnail]

May I ask how old you experienced guys are? Who of you are Captains, and at what age did you do your command courses? When was the last time you went through a TR?

I am 52 years old. I passed my command course 10 years ago. I did my last type rating 9 months ago.
My career is not typical for the UK/European market. I was a flight instructor, bush pilot, coastwatch pilot, regional turboprop pilot in Australia before coming to the UK.

Am I finding it difficult to pass checks?
No. I know the standard that is expected so experience plus motivation to do well ensures a good performance. I don't fear checks.
We no longer accept cadets, we haven't hired any one since 2008. The cadets we took from Oxford were of an excellent standard. They were very strong on book stuff, but I could show them how to apply it and where the gotchas are.

I don't fly airliners. I fly business jets, mental agility and operational flexibility is paramount as well as outstanding customer service. BTW - I love my job. I reckon I have one of the best civvy jobs out there. It has its moments, but the good far outweighs the bad. For me this job has the best qualities of my fun GA jobs but with the security of one of the biggest companies out there as well as excellent maintenance and support from the office.

[wiggy]

FWIW

60 plus or minus.

Transitioned from mil flying with a fair bit of P1 time in my mid thirties...

Civvie Command in my late 40's on a Long Haul wide body (so after 15 years of civvie flying but with over 25 years of flying in total)

Last Type change 7 years ago, last recurrent check last month.

I think redsnail sums up checks, etc with....

"Am I finding it difficult to pass checks?
No. I know the standard that is expected so experience plus motivation to do well ensures a good performance."

And the experience is the big thing...If you start flying in your teens you are still carrying a hell of a lot of experience around even into your 50s plus.

As for thrusting young cadets..there's an old story about two bulls in a field..

[G SXTY]

I’m mid-forties, and left behind a safe but boring office-based career in my mid thirties.

First flying job was aged 36, flying TPs with a UK regional that sounds suspiciously similar to Desk-pilot’s . . . ;) Five years there; salary, career prospects and job security not the best, but wonderful experience – fun flying from small bases with great people. It was a working holiday.

I then spent a couple of years in the Middle East, flying mostly at night to some godawful, horrible, scary places. Great money, great experience (with hindsight – it didn’t feel like it at the time) but p!ss-poor quality of life. I couldn’t wait to escape.

Now with a very big UK airline – that sounds suspiciously similar to Desk-Pilots’s . . . ;) Except that I was fortunate enough to join on a longhaul fleet rather than the minibus. Money is somewhere between the other two, but with much better quality of life, career prospects and job security. For sure I’ve been lucky with timing, but you take your breaks and - to an extent – make your own luck.

And after nearly a decade of airline flying, it still feels like I’m being paid to do my hobby. I can’t think of many jobs like that.

[Nurse2Pilot]

Hello everyone!

As you can see by my name, I currently work as a Registered Nurse for one of the University Hospitals in the UK. Due to the current pressures being applied to the healthcare sector, I am considering a career in one of my childhood dreams even at the "late" age of 35. However, I have zero clues where to start! I'm spending my free time reading and researching, but most of it is confusing and I fear I don't appreciate a few things that I come across.

I am starting this thread just to try an un-clog my brain and if anyone could be kind enough to throw some guidance and advice my way, I would be very grateful!

I'm guessing this issue has been done to death, but I, too, am having issues with financing. While I am currently a British Citizen and living in the UK with my wife and two sons, the rest of our families are back "home" in the Philippines and thus, most of the financing options (secured against property in the UK) are unavailable to me. I'll have to find another way to raise the funds for this new "adventure."

Speaking of "adventure," I am planning to do this the Integrated way for two reasons - time and appearance. I've heard/read that airlines prefer Integrated as opposed to Modular so I'd like to stack that in my favor. I'm also currently employed full-time and I believe I can take an 18-24 month sabbatical and return to my current job while waiting for an airline offer; I'd rather do this than stretch out the training over several years. I don't mind job-hunting for a year or two as I continue working in the healthcare sector; I don't want to be juggling work and study for a year or two. With my current job, I can afford a reasonable loan on a 12-15 year payment term if I do end up with a CPL/fATPL but no airline job.

My next hurdle is the training itself. UK and EASA or USA and FAA? I don't understand either EASA or FAA enough to appreciate the difference. However, I am under the impression that US-based training is cheaper than UK-based schools and even UK-based schools go to the USA or NZ to do flight hours there, so maybe cut out the middleman and just train in the US then convert FAA to EASA license? I'll need to find out how that costs in the USA compared to UK schools, but most pages I come across are filled with so much jargon and abbreviations that I don't understand half of what I'm reading! Work-wise, I expect to be looking at either Europe, Middle East, or Asia/SE Asia for employment as I believe the US/Canada market is saturated with pilots and poor pay.

Currently, I'm looking at 2Fly Pro-Pilot (http://www.2flypropilot.com/) as their training is around £70K as opposed to the £100+K for CTC and CAE Oxford, but like I said, I'm brand new to this so I'm still looking around for other schools to weigh my options. One of the flight schools in Florida that offer EASA training (Naples Air Center) estimates around US$45-50K, which is around half of 2Fly's £70K/US$92K, but 2Fly includes accomodations so I'm not entire sure how everything weighs in... for example, Naples Air Center flies out of Naples Municipal Airport which is tower-controlled while 2Fly flies out of Merritt Island airport which isn't tower-controlled.... but they also have an office in Fort Lauderdale and the Fort Lauderdale Executive Airport is tower-controlled.

Speaking of schools, my next issue is how to determine whether a school is legit and whether their training is any good. I guess people can't say anything bad about CTC and CAE Oxford aside from the sky-high fees, but for the smaller, cheaper schools, I read about "shady" establishments all the time. In fact, one of my local flight schools (PPL only) is/was owned by a rather interesting character and I found out about his history here on PPRuNe! This is also one of the reasons I don't want to go too cheap --- "if it's too good to be true..." Another factor that I'm aware of, but I'm not very sure about the value, is how "connected" these schools are with the airline companies. CTC, Oxford, and 2Fly advertise their connections to airlines but a local flight school that offers CPL does not.

Whew! Feels good to be able to get this in writing so that I can review this and don't have to store it all in my head and maybe forget important aspects later on.

Thank you very much for reading this and like I said earlier, any snippets of wisdom or advice would be greatly appreciated! I will continue updating this thread as my adventure progresses.

[MaverickPrime]

I am considering a career in one of my childhood dreams even at the "late" age of 35.

From reading your post, Im guessing you are originally a Filipino who has immigrated to the UK to work as a nurse. If so, I understand why you probably ended up becoming a nurse, as my lady is also a filipino nurse moving to the UK to work. I would suggest that you list the reasons why becoming a pilot is your dream, and then assess if they are really good enough reasons to put yourself through the long and risky process of becoming a pilot!

guessing this issue has been done to death, but I, too, am having issues with financing. While I am currently a British Citizen and living in the UK with my wife and two sons, the rest of our families are back "home" in the Philippines and thus, most of the financing options (secured against property in the UK) are unavailable to me. I'll have to find another way to raise the funds for this new "adventure."

Have you ever thought of training back ph, its a lot cheaper and you might be able to get your first gig in PAL, Cebu Pacific, air asia etc. It maybe worthwhile checking this out?

I've heard/read that airlines prefer Integrated as opposed to Modular so I'd like to stack that in my favor.

Completely wrong I'm afraid. Maybe 5 or 6 years ago you could have argued that integrated was the best option, but not now. There are a lot more viable alternatives available out there for modular trained pilots. Look into, FTE Jerez and L3s modular route, the Wings Alliance, Kura aviation and even Ryanair's APC through CAE aviation. Also, speak to modular pilots who have got jobs, don't believe all the glossy PR nonsense from the big schools!

also currently employed full-time and I believe I can take an 18-24 month sabbatical and return to my current job while waiting for an airline offer; I'd rather do this than stretch out the training over several years. I don't mind job-hunting for a year or two as I continue working in the healthcare sector; I don't want to be juggling work and study for a year or two. With my current job, I can afford a reasonable loan on a 12-15 year payment term if I do end up with a CPL/fATPL but no airline job.

The career breaks available in the NHS are fantastic, I suggest you take full advantage of it. perhaps you could get your PPL and hour building done in your spare time and when you are ready to do the ATPLs and CPL/MEIR you could take your career break. It would allow you the necessary time to focus on your training plus you can always return to nursing when your done. It would also give you the peace of mind that you have a job to return to in order to service any loans payments you might have as a result of your training.

next hurdle is the training itself. UK and EASA or USA and FAA? I don't understand either EASA or FAA enough to appreciate the difference.

If you want to work for a European airline you will absolutely need an EASA fATPL licence. You can train in the USA and then convert to EASA at a later stage. I'm not an expert on how to do this, but there are plenty of people and threads on this forum who can explain the process.

I would also add, there are benefits to training at the big schools like FTE or CTC, but there is increasingly a lot more modular outfits who can offer the same benefits. Where, when and how much money you want to spend on your training will be down to you. All I can suggest is to do lots and lots of research and take your time before making any decisions.

Also, get your class 1 medical booked, I'm sure as a nurse you will know if your healthy, but you can't fly professionally as a pilot without a class 1.

[Nurse2Pilot]

I wonder why my post has been added/moved to this thread as it had very little to do with "am I too old"... I simply mentioned my age but I had much more than just "am I too old?" in my post... who can I contact about returning this to it's own thread?


From reading your post, Im guessing you are originally a Filipino who has immigrated to the UK to work as a nurse.
That is correct!


I would suggest that you list the reasons why becoming a pilot is your dream, and then assess if they are really good enough reasons to put yourself through the long and risky process of becoming a pilot!
Lots of reasons... but here's one that exactly happened to me... I was able to come to the UK because I was in the right place at the right time with the right qualifications. I never wanted to be a nurse when I was younger; I took up Nursing because it was "in demand" at the time I took the course but by the time I finished it (it's a 4-year course), the USA had introduced visa retrogression almost a year prior which resulted in a lot of nurses with licenses and employers in the USA still stuck in the Philippines as the US Embassy would only issue a limited amount of visas per year. There were nurses who finished their courses 2-4 years prior to me, worked alongside me for 2 years, and were still stuck in the Philippines while I moved on to work in the UK. A few of them remained in the Philippines for another 4-6 years after that! So I am very much aware of the idea that hiring practices may change... but if I did not take the risk and study nursing, if I did not apply for a job as a nurse (I almost went for a call center agent job because it paid 20-40% better!), then it would not matter what opportunities arrived as I was not qualified to get it. A comfy call center agent job may be making good money in the Philippine economy, but that is nothing compared to what a "poor" RN is making in the UK today. "You have to be in it to win it," I think is the best phrase.

I would not want to be a pilot if the money is worse than what I'm making now... "childhood dreams" have no place if I cannot fulfill my responsibilities as a father/husband/provider. A "poor pilot" at £30K year is at the start of his career (at least that's what my research shows as a starting FO might make). The basic pay of a "top" Band 5 nurse is £28K, that's after at least 5 years of working as an RN.... whereas the pilot is only at the start of his career. This is one of the reasons I went looking for other jobs in the first place... then thought about "what if I were to make my childhood dream a reality **AND** get a good wage as well?"


Have you ever thought of training back ph, its a lot cheaper and you might be able to get your first gig in PAL, Cebu Pacific, air asia etc. It maybe worthwhile checking this out?
Simply, THIS! (http://www.pprune.org/south-asia-far-east/403388-philippines-best-place-professional-pilot-training.html) It may be cheap, but like I said, sometimes, if it's too good to be true... my driving test many years ago consisted of me driving my instructor to a party he needed to go to, he then signed my form, then sent me back to the office where I turned in the form and got my official driver's license!

I don't want to be stacking the deck AGAINST me any further than it already is :)


Completely wrong I'm afraid. Maybe 5 or 6 years ago you could have argued that integrated was the best option, but not now. There are a lot more viable alternatives available out there for modular trained pilots. Look into, FTE Jerez and L3s modular route, the Wings Alliance, Kura aviation and even Ryanair's APC through CAE aviation. Also, speak to modular pilots who have got jobs, don't believe all the glossy PR nonsense from the big schools!
That is good to know, thanks! However, my initial point still remains... I cannot afford to drag this out. I've spoken with my manager today and the most I can get is 12 months sabbatical leave... I would rather get training done fast and be looking for jobs earlier rather than stretch out the training and miss out on opportunities for employment along the way. At the most, I could probably do a small part of the training (4-6 month PPL or hour building if following the 2Fly programme or ATPL exams if following other integrated programmes ), go back to work for a few months, then go back on a longer sabbatical to finish off the training and requirements.


The career breaks available in the NHS are fantastic, I suggest you take full advantage of it. perhaps you could get your PPL and hour building done in your spare time and when you are ready to do the ATPLs and CPL/MEIR you could take your career break. It would allow you the necessary time to focus on your training plus you can always return to nursing when your done. It would also give you the peace of mind that you have a job to return to in order to service any loans payments you might have as a result of your training.
Apparently not as good as I thought! I wonder if that's just for my department though... I'll need to dig into this a bit more as I wouldn't put it past my manager to lie to squeeze me.


If you want to work for a European airline you will absolutely need an EASA fATPL licence. You can train in the USA and then convert to EASA at a later stage. I'm not an expert on how to do this, but there are plenty of people and threads on this forum who can explain the process.
That's exactly the issue. I'm not married into the idea of flying just in Europe. I am in the UK because it's where the job is... my only reason for not going to the Middle Eastern countries was because I knew nurses could work there for 20-30 years but would still have to go home after this time... at least in the UK, we were able to apply for citizenship which opens a lot more doors for me and my family. With that done, I've no qualms of flying for the Middle Eastern countries or even going back to Asia/SE Asia and working there. The obvious advantage of being able to land a job with a European airline is that I may not have to uproot my family in the process, but I think that's about it.


I would also add, there are benefits to training at the big schools like FTE or CTC, but there is increasingly a lot more modular outfits who can offer the same benefits. Where, when and how much money you want to spend on your training will be down to you. All I can suggest is to do lots and lots of research and take your time before making any decisions.
Thank you for the advice! What I wonder specifically is how much weight should I give to schools that advertise ties to airline companies vs. schools who just offer courses. For example, 2Fly, CTC, and CAE Oxford all advertise their placement programmes, whereas my local flight school also offers CPL(A), Multi Engine Pistion, IR, Ab Inition ATPL, Night rating, FI, and other courses as well, but no mention of airline connections.


Also, get your class 1 medical booked, I'm sure as a nurse you will know if your healthy, but you can't fly professionally as a pilot without a class 1.
This is very true and is in fact my first stop in this adventure. It will not matter if I am the hottest airline pilot ever born if I can't get a Class 1 Medical. I have a few issues -- contact lenses, gallstones (non symptomatic), asthma (well controlled), and a good belly (comfort eating after a long and stressful shift) -- but from what I've read, they should not be an obstacle, but I never know until I have gone for a medical examination.

[BusAirDriver]

Utter nonsense you say about Modular vs Integrated training.

If you want first job with a UK company, the only way is integrated, with exception of Ryanair, most other companies have agreement with CTC/Oxford.

Besides Ryanair, I do not know of any airlines within UK that will give you a job with modular training program, unless you are lucky to be included into some of the CTC programs available.

[RichardH]

I know of several former modular students who have got first time airline jobs (excluding Ryanair) & not been on any formal CTC/Oxford scheme. Some of them have been the wrong side of 30 too.

[BusAirDriver]

I was modular myself, and I know loads of modular guys, many getting jobs, but mostly they had to go abroad or Ryanair.

There are modular pilot's who have come trough Oxford / CTC, but the training there is quite expensive even if modular.
And if you are modular you always second priority, it's only when they can't place all the integrated students that they turn to the modular students.

These schools have deals in place with most the major UK airlines, and will obviously get priority.
I am not a big supporter of this system, but it's the way it is, either you like it or not.

[MaverickPrime]

Flybe, BACF, Stobart Air, Eastern, DHL, Thomas Cook, Monarch, Easyjet(only via CTC/L3 admittedly), Ryanair, Aer Lingus, Cityjet, Air Tanker, Jet2; have I forgotten any; have and still do - recruit modular cadets. Titan has just closed a scheme very recently that was exclusively for modular trained pilots.

IMVHO, :}, I think airlines are catching on to the fact that starry eyed, 20 year old, middle class kids from the sausage factories; do not always make the best first officer and sometimes turn into jaded captains that spend their spare time moaning on pprune about their lot in life. I also spoke to a TOM skipper lately, whilst I was on a course, who expressed the opinion that airlines realise that budding managers don't make great pilots and are adjusting their recruitment strategies as a result - a swipe at these mentored cadet schemes.

A major question that bears asking is that Ryanair (who are the largest recruiter of cadets in europe) have kept their recruitment, selection and Type Rating in house (yes CAE does the TR). They have not outsourced it to CTC or any of the others. Since, and therefore, the management culture in Ryanair detests cronyism, I can't help but wonder that they thought the whole relationship between airlines and certain ATOs stinks of the boys club and back scratching. However this is another conversation and I digress no further, but maybe it gives some context.

As a former modular pilot, you know it has been difficult in the past for modular guys to get into employment, times are changing thankfully. I don't think its helpful to do the biding of the 'big 3' and continue to spread their spin that integrated is the only way forward.

Putting on my rose tinted glasses now. With a bit of luck, the grip and greed of the big schools might just be broken in the next decade if the new initiatives popping up to help modular pilots succeed.

Anyway, I think integrated vs modular has been done so much that it is almost turning into a religious debate.

Nurse2Pilot - keep up the research, the only thing I can stress is to not rush anything! Go forward with your eyes wide open, there is no such thing as the ideal time train. You face a lot more risks in pursuing a career as a pilot other than just not being able to find a job. The thread you shared about training in the Philippines is any eye opener, but not surprising.

[Nurse2Pilot]

Nurse2Pilot - keep up the research, the only thing I can stress is to not rush anything! Go forward with your eyes wide open, there is no such thing as the ideal time train. You face a lot more risks in pursuing a career as a pilot other than just not being able to find a job. The thread you shared about training in the Philippines is any eye opener, but not surprising.
Thanks MaverickPrime! I'm doing as much reading as I can but most of it is still confusing....

There are so many schools but only a handful seems to have sterling reputation. Most seems to be either shady or re-branding of shady schools... if not the school itself, then their affiliate schools in USA or Europe.

There are different opinions regarding Integrated vs. Modular... but at least this is easy for me if I want to keep my Nursing job after training.

You face a lot more risks in pursuing a career as a pilot other than just not being able to find a job.
What do you mean by this? I'm getting a feeling you're talking about more than just the initial debt for training...

[G SXTY]

BusAirDriver

If you want first job with a UK company, the only way is integrated, with exception of Ryanair
Wrong. Completely wrong.

Besides Ryanair, I do not know of any airlines within UK that will give you a job with modular training program
I'd recommend a bit more research then. Flybe gave me my first job, and I distinctly remember doing modular training. As did many of my colleagues.

Integrated might be the only low-hours route into BA, but as an experienced direct entry pilot, they couldn't care less how and where you trained. I know because I work for them now. Integrated training may give you an advantage with some airlines, some of the time. It ain't a golden ticket, however. In my direct experience, breaking into this industry is far more dependent on contacts and timing than where or how you trained - or how old you are.

[Reverserbucket]

It is interesting how this idea that integrated is the only way has been perpetuated by the larger ATO's selling predominantly, err, integrated courses. I could give you the names of fifty or more colleagues and acquaintances currently flying both larger and small airliners, many in the left seat and several in management and training roles who are all either the product of modular (self-improvers in old money) or ex-military and up through the modular route. It's more about the person than the path in my view.

[facubsf]

Hi everyone. A little context: I'm 25 from Argentina and about to get a degree in system information.
I would really like to start the pilot career, targeting at commercial airlines. I've already saved to pay for the private pilot license and commercial pilot license. Thing is that I'd like to continue my life and training anywhere else, since job pilots in this country barely exists. (Any type of pilots job).
Is it possible to validate the hours in another country?. USA, Canada, Europe, China, anywhere. Also I've read that the payment for starters is not very good, is this a global situation or only in the us?
I've also read that there is a pilot shortage so that now is a good time to become one.
Finally, the question you always get: is 25 a good age to dream of becoming a pilot? Luckily i dont have a wife or debts or anything pulling me back too much. Any advice will be more than welcomed!. At what age did you start studying for this?

[MaverickPrime]

It is interesting how this idea that integrated is the only way has been perpetuated by the larger ATO's selling predominantly, err, integrated courses. I could give you the names of fifty or more colleagues and acquaintances currently flying both larger and small airliners, many in the left seat and several in management and training roles who are all either the product of modular (self-improvers in old money) or ex-military and up through the modular route. It's more about the person than the path in my view.

I've heard this "integrated is the only way" mantra spoutted out at flying clubs in the back end of the UK. The glossy PR has been very effective and far reaching in producing and diseminating this narrative!

[BusAirDriver]

There are some good modular schools in the UK, which have high standard, and it's not one of the top 2 expensive ones.

At the current climate of the Pound vs US Dollar, I can't see much savings in going to the US at the moment, as you still need to come back and also do the conversion. Maybe 10 years ago, when the exchange rate was 1 : 2 it was better.

If you do well, and you are under 30, I have not heard of anybody not having a chance with RyanAir, I would however be careful with some schools around in Europe, as I have seen pilots come from them, trained with them, and they have not all been trained to the same standard as you see in the UK.

[BusAirDriver]

BusAirDriver


Wrong. Completely wrong.


I'd recommend a bit more research then. Flybe gave me my first job, and I distinctly remember doing modular training. As did many of my colleagues.

Integrated might be the only low-hours route into BA, but as an experienced direct entry pilot, they couldn't care less how and where you trained. I know because I work for them now. Integrated training may give you an advantage with some airlines, some of the time. It ain't a golden ticket, however. In my direct experience, breaking into this industry is far more dependent on contacts and timing than where or how you trained - or how old you are.

I know of plenty Modular trained guys, who mostly have gone abroad for their first job, come back after 1 - 2- 3 years experience, and gone into very good UK jobs.
I am not disputing that you can't get a UK job as low hour modular, but you will be in the back of a very long queue after the ones who have paid their "golden ticket" £120.000 to CTC / Oxford, the MPL's, the integrated, currently as far as I know BA, easyJet, FlyBe, Monarch, Virgin to mention a few, have all had some cadet scheme agreement the last few years with the big FTO's.

Some FTO's, have become quite powerful with job placement now, and even run their own schemes for modular pilots who want to apply for the major airlines.
Than add the thousands of pilots working abroad, who are looking to get back home to the UK, and you understand it's not easy going the modular route anymore.
If you are older it's even more risky, I recall around 6-7 years ago one week I was to do the CTC ATPQ or something like that screening, which was to put you in a hold pool, and pay £10.000 for a MCC/JOC course, same week I got offered a job with an airline abroad, so of I went to that job. I was not prepared to sit and wait for 1-2 years in a hold pool, and have to pay £10.000 for the course and an additional £35.000 for TR, but I recall some people was very "HAPPY" when they passed this selection.

If you are mid 40's, time counts, time is money, those years commuting was very hard, and knowing what I know now, I am pretty sure many who thing of doing this today at a late age should show caution. It had great financial and family consequences for me, and still today where I am in a good job, I can't confirm if the investment and sacrifices was worth it.
Sure love the job, but life is not just about working.

[superflanker]

I'm sorry that there is little commercial aviation in Argentina. But that's what populist socialism gets you. Shared misery.


My father is from Argentina. Got his commercial license in the early 80s, never had a chance to work in the country (80s, 90s 2000s). He always had to work in another countries. So I don't think "populist socialism" has to do anything with that :).
Anyway, this is not a politics forum (fortunately).

There is a lot of people who gets the license with around 20 years, so those of us who are 25 have to hurry up! But I think it's still a good age!

[TryingToAvoidCBs]

By age 25 I was already a Boeing 727 first officer. So your a little late to the party, but not too late. If you hurry you'll still make it. But you don't have any time to waste.



I would argue 25 is not too late at all. I didn't start until I was 27, and didn't even finish until I was 34 and still made it into the RHS of a jet. Many friends of mine older than me (up to 38) are in the same position.

I agree that the younger you are the better your chances, but 25 shouldn't be an issue in the current climate.

[facubsf]

By age 25 I was already a Boeing 727 first officer. So your a little late to the party, but not too late. If you hurry you'll still make it. But you don't have any time to waste.

The main problem as I see it for you if you do not have legal right to work in either Europe/UK, or the United States. So unless you marry somebody who is a citizen of that country, then I don't know what you'll do.

You want to know if age 25 is a good age to DREAM of becoming a pilot?
No age 10 thru 15 is a good age to dream, from then on you have to start coming up with a plan. I would say age 17 or 18 is the right time to start making it happen.

I'm glad to see that you have money saved and have no commitments. But another problem for you is the exchange rates. The United States Dollar is very over valued, and the British schools are very over priced.

There are basically very few jobs that pay anything for people with just 250 hours. Without the right to even flight instruct in the US. I would think that South American missionary work may be your best opportunity. But don't expect it to pay much if anything.

I'm sorry that there is little commercial aviation in Argentina. But that's what populist socialism gets you. Shared misery.

But I never want to leave a conversation without offering some assistance.
Look into going to Barteloni School in Lodz Poland.
I understand you can get a European Frozen Air Line Pilots License for about Euros 60,000
From there you can try to work in the Middle East or Africa.

Or just stay in Argentina and dream of another job.


Thanks for your message. Being a FO at age 25 is awesome. When did you start? And how many hours did you have when you got that job?

Actually i can legally work and live in Europe as i do have double citizenship (Argentinian & Italian). Unluckily i don't have the same rights for USA.

As for Argentinian being a ****** up country and the other comments, it is and has pretty much always been, and always will be so i will leave this country for sure, becoming a pilot or not.

[OBB1044]

I am now 31, soon will be 32... and if I choose to wait to 35 years old and only then start training. Will I make mistake in your opinion? I know that it is hard to say "you will" or "you will not" but what would you tell me if I am your friend and tell you this.

And I planed it like that, partly because of (some of the most important things):

1) I have wife, but we still don't have children. We want to have children from now on and I guess that it will be really hard for her to be alone with small baby while I am somewhere in Europe on training. And it is very likely to happen (that we have baby) if I start training now. Having baby later is not option as we will be too old to have first child in near 40, at least for me (but please don't argue about this).

2) I have really great job right now and I need to do some more steps to ensure my future and to have certain "backup" job if I don't succeed as pilot. I can't do those steps tomorrow as I need some more working experience (something like gaining flight hours - but just in law) :)

3) I have luck (or bad luck) to live in Bosnia which is rather poor and ****** up country and for example Wizz air has base in my city. I would be perfectly happy to fly for Wizz, and with FO income you can live in Bosnia really good while in rest of Europe you can't even rent a house. I see that Wizz is constantly employing new people and that they are growing and I guess that not much potential FOs fighting to work in my country. But how like is that they will hire one 35-36 years old pilot and let him work at his home town? (I can work in EU too as i have Croatian citizenship too).

4) I am not looking to become rich in way that because I am captain of Airplane I have house with pool and Porsche for me, my wife and every child :p. I must admit that (thankfully to my parents and my work) I have enough money to finance my training and would be satisfied if in rest of my working life I repay invested money in training and earn some more money...


If I am 5 years younger I would not ask this and would do it, but now I am not sure what to do. To drop this plan as unrealistic and too optimistic or to to proceed with it. I am aware that 3rd point is too stretched to be my main goal and, but you can see that I would be happy even with this scenario which 99% of pilots will not be happy with.

I have probably gone too deep with my "story" but what do you think about everything I said? Sometime it feels like good plan (as I don't expect much in return, have money for school and have support from wife) but also sometimes it feels to me that I will be too old to start all this and that I will be counting on too much uncertain things. I don't have friends with real life flying experience as captains or FO, so I can't evaluate my thought without your help. That is why I ask it heir.

P.S.
Right now I don't have any permits for flying and I would probably go with integrated way. Maybe get PPL in meantime...

[shenouda]

hi
iam 30 years with degree in foreign language and social media marketing and iwant to be pilot is too old now

[Dogfactory]

How long has this thread being going on? I think we can answer all questions with a simple: "have you got the money?" and close it!
Learning to fly takes a pile load of money, even going PPL ain't cheap. If you are young you need someone to pay your training; if you are middle-aged and you have some money you still need the time to switch between your normal job and the training; if you are old and rich you can always buy your job.
Why only rockstars and teenagers work in aviation? Because they had the money. Period.
So, if you got the money you might get a job, otherwise you can only do it as an hobby and, frankly, that might be enough if you really love aviation. A job is not the answer to your passion.

[jamesgrainge]

Someone's having a good day :-P

[airbourne]

I'm a 10 year captain at NetJets Europe.

Aww and I remember the days you were delighted flying an SD-30!

[redsnail]

Ha! Good experience to be honest. :D I flew with one of my colleagues from Streamline t'other day on the Challenger 350. We had fun reminiscing and also enjoying cruising at FL430. :D

[airbourne]

I dont see many of the pre 2000 members here very often Reddo!

[Docdibley1967]

Hi,

Just got the flying ‘bug’, I am 50 have just started my PPL, plan to do CPL and then IR and multi engine. Have no desire to fly jets but am interested to know how far I could go?

I have a small used car site in UK and also do part-time counselling, it more for me can I get any job flying, whether UK or Spain, the Canaries would be ideal even if seasonal or part-time?

I m guessing and would like to be corrected I only need to achieve CPL, IR and night rating to be be able to work ?

Thanks and great thread

[johnjohncafe]

Go for it Docdibley and enjoy the ride !
Life is definitely too short to ask oneself so many questions and not leaving the moment...
I am going to turn 40 and I am about to start the ATPL theory course. Have already FAA CPL but it is kind of useless here in Europe.
You probably have to get the ATPL exams too and then IR + CPL.
I think the most important thing is to take care of making connections, networking is a huge factor in this business.

[Zeky]

Wow, that’s great.

[johnjohncafe]

Bravo! :ok:

[DB777]

All, been actively trying not to engage with this thread from when I last deeply considered it all a few years back. Glad to hear that the Modular route *might* be making a come back.

It was a post by G SXTY about his first interview / offer that helped carry me through the industry doom back in 2009/10 (can't find it now) – that kept the fire burning for me then but with a young family and the recessional risks that prevailed I just couldn't justify it then. The obsession/ambition still consumes me everyday. I've been lingering on the less positive airline threads from seasoned flyers in PPRuNe Worldwide to help discourage me from embarking on this all again, which has been working until strayed over here!

I'm closer to 40 now with 3 young'ns, all at p-school (though they're old enough to know that a family day out watching the fun on 27R from the Thistle is 'uncool'). The 150-ish hour PPL is now invalid – I want to get back up the Club every day but is hour-building (once revalidated), with a view of building on my license 'organically' and locally even worth it? Would a Modular route through one of the notable schools – BCFT was always recommended to me back then – give me a fighting chance?

I'm self-employed with the usual trappings so i've only ever been drip-feeding the flying pot as and when cash-flow has permitted, so full upfront funds to a school is a major risk. I still have my Class 1 medical so that's one box ticked, though due to being a sole trader for 15 odd years I have no actual employment history and no recent/credible qualifications that measure up against the younger crowd.

Almost convinced myself back out of it having written all this now :ugh:

[rudestuff]

No.
Definitely don’t bother.
All that will happen if you get ‘back into it’ is you’ll end up flying a jet.
You’re 3/4 of the way there hours-wise. You could finish everything for less than £20k - at possibly the best time ever to become a pilot. You should definitely give up on the dream.

[Azgalor]

Hello,
I have trapped myself into strange situation.
I have finnished my university degree in 2013 as a professional pilot. I was flying my training while studying and even though I have did everything (PPL, night, CPL, IR, MEP/IR) I haven't closed that. I have hours and lessons but no exam. No, I didn't fail. I just didn't try. So let's say that is all gone. I have just university degree but no ATPL. I have knowledge and skill.
I'm 27 now, I have job and I'm fine but hell. I miss flying. I'm able and willing to invest time and money to gain my ATPL(A), do all the hours and get it finally.
However here comes the problem. I really don't want to end up in situation when I send my CV somewhere and they will see somethig like dude, 28 years, ATPL(A) and no hours and no experience and they will be like wtf, he is old. Some of my classmates are flying for 3 years or so. One of them got into cockpit 9 months ago. However I will be year older.

rudestuff

Honestly, I do not get it. On the one hand you are saying he is quite close but then you say he should give up.:confused: