The perpetual 'Am I too old?' thread

[Gentle Climb]

You will find a wide variance of opinion here and whilst a fair amount is ill informed and inaccurate, some is valid and you should try to take account of this input.

Firstly, don't get sucked in to some sort of confirmation bias when you read a post telling you that age isn't going to be a problem because this is what you want to hear. There are always going to be exceptions. On the other hand don't be put off by someone telling you that you have no chance.

Whatever you decide, make sure that you make an informed decision and if you do decide to go for it, choose your route to potential employment carefully...give yourself the best chances when you get your licence. That probably won't be the cheapest route!

For what it is worth, I started training aged 39...I am 43 now and I am awaiting a date to start a type rating with an airline. It was stated to me that one of the factors in my recruitment was my life experience. There is the odd company out there who will look at older candidates but you will have to go and find them and as a top tip, don't send in a CV...

Having gone through the pain of hearing nothing from many, many approaches for a very long time, and watched as younger applicants with similar or even inferior flying records have walked in to jobs, if you asked me 'would I do it again?' I am not sure that I would. I know I have been very fortunate.

[RTN11]

Now tell me what cow experience do you base that observation on? Do you actually have any first hand information that backs up that claim? I am pretty sure you have none! But... easy to make such a comment, based on utter ignorance and arrogance!

Yes, it is not easy to find a job after 40, impossible? Hmmm not sure..., yes will be very hard, and if you can accept that it might never happen before you start the training, at least you know what you are going to!

I am over 40, when I did my initial TR, I was not slower, I was not dumber, I actually know of younger guys, who was much less focused needing extra sim time sessions!

Well, as a flying instructor it is my first hand experience that people over 40, and certainly approaching 50 are generally slower to learn the fundamental skills required to learn to fly, taking up to 20 hours longer than a young buck. This is fine at PPL, CPL and even IR level, but on a type rating an employer is unlikely to want to pay out for extra sessions.

Yes, there are exceptions to the rule, but in general younger guys are quick to pick up the actual physical act of flying the aircraft, but perhaps struggle with the more in depth stuff like navigation. For older guys the opposite is true, slower to get to grips with flying the machine, but once they have it's much easier to teach them complicated procedures.

So for your typical guy, I would say if you're over 40, I'd have to think long and hard about leaving an established career to chase this dream. I'm not saying there aren't exceptions, and perhaps you yourself are used to operating other pieces of machinery, or have some other engineering background which assisted in the way you learned to fly, but for most over 40 they just take that bit longer and an employer may not want to pay for the extra training, however good the end result will be.

The only people to ever fail the initial type rating in the history of the company I now work for were in their late 40s/early 50s.

[RTN11]

When I was 18 I took my PPL

So when you did your initial type rating, you actually had at least 22 years of flying experience as a PPL.

This guy is just starting out, with no flying experience at all. A completely different scenario.

[maxdrypower]

From my POV I would agree with truckflyer just dont do it . Unless you have a lot of excess money sitting around and can afford to never get a job flying .
I was 38 when I started and had about 200hrs in a ppl . Luckily I already had offer of a job as an instructor which was fortunate as I came out of training in 2009 just as recession was kicking in about 5 months after the demise of excel.
It was this instructing experience that led to current position as an AOC captain flying night freight. I am also in the hold pool to fly for a turboprop freight carrier.
I however am in the minority . Everyone of my class mates under 30 sold their asses to pikey air . All those over 30 are either instructing or have returned to their old jobs. The chap I did my FIC with hasnt turned a prop since .
It is unfortunately a young mans game and the PTF eejits are destroying it piece by piece.
There was a time when you qualifed became an instructor flew for an aoc moved to turboprops then onto jets , it wud appear those days are gone .
I have 2200 hrs now and it is worth diddly in the eyes of many airlines . They would prefer a spotty 21 yr old who is prepared to fork out go knows how much of his parents money for a TR and a gash contract.
It is a sad fact that as it stands at the moment I firmly believe there are 16 yr olds still at school who have yet to decide on a career path who have a better chance of flying an airliner than I do !
There are many friends of mine and friends of theirs out there with 200hrs sending cv's to anyone with an email address on a daily basis and getting nowehere . think arefully before you add yourself to this group.
Just my opinion

[FANS]

In many instances, the bigger issue is funding:

Can you afford £80k?
Can you afford not to have an income for 2 years+?
Once flying, can you afford to live on £25k-£30k, especially if you have a training loan + family commitments, in a location that may be countries away from home.
Can you afford to instruct/GA work on £8k/year?

You must know the reality of the industry today, as too many people seem to think that airline flying is still like the BOAC days and that their life will turn out brilliantly if only they were an airline pilot.

[TizerTheAppetizer]

What are the chances of someone in their mid-40s getting a job after completing their fATPL?

I have the funds, I love flying etc etc but I don't want to be unemployed after 12-14 months of hard work...

Any thoughts appreciated...

[dgmjansen]

Rather slim as an airline pilot in the current market I would say. For jobs like instructing, scenic flights, and more of those GA things I think age is less of an issue. Not that these jobs are plentiful though.

[Depone]

Carry on with the job that earned you those funds you mentioned, buy a share in a light aircraft, go flying for fun.

Every man, woman and their dog has an fATPL these days. There are very few jobs out there. The maths is simple.

Your risk is too great in my humble opinion.

[Contact Approach]

If you've got the funds go for it and never look back!

[TheBigD]

Middle Age Itch
What are the chances of someone in their mid-40s getting a job after completing their fATPL?

I have the funds, I love flying etc etc but I don't want to be unemployed after 12-14 months of hard work...

Any thoughts appreciated...

It is a VERY VERY VERY tough market out there. You can read what others have posted about the state of the industry so no need for me to go over that. However, if you decide to go this route, these are just my humble opinions.

My advice would be to go the modular route because it will be much cheaper than the integrated route and the certificates i.e. licenses are the same. So go about it the least expensive way. If a school wants you to spend a ton of money for a guaranteed job interview run as fast as you can. I can guarantee you an interview. That means nothing. So, spend your hard earned money wisely, do your research.

In terms of employment (and I'm speaking for the States), my regional has hired guys in their late 40's and early 50's. Regionals, in the States, do hire middle age guys because they will most likely end up staying with the company and will not jump ship to the legacy carriers. As a matter of fact, I flew with a fairly new FO who was in his early 50's. Get your FI certificate instead of your TR, cause at least you will be able to flight instruct while waiting for the industry to recover.


Best of luck. And my advice before you invest in any training program is to network and start making contacts now.

And if you have any questions, feel free to PM me.
Oh yeah, and before you spend a dollar ,or a euro or a pound, make sure you can get a medical.

[MCDU2]

My advice is don't scratch the itch. The odds of securing a decent paying airline job are massively against you. Save your money and enjoy flying on the weekends. You can even build yourself something and get a whole lot of enjoyment out of it. Plus you will be off each weekend and won't miss any important family events.

[TizerTheAppetizer]

Thank you all for your opinions... a lot for me to think about. I wish I could say no, logic says no, but my heart keeps saying yes.

[TizerTheAppetizer]

Cheers my friend. Sound advice. My only problem is that my heart sometimes overrules my brain... but you're 100 per cent right. I need to think!

[shaun ryder]

How do you know if he will be off every weekend?

The rest I agree with. Little to no chance unfortunately. There are no decent contracts, flexi rubbish if you are lucky and you are just a whore to the industry then. Too old for Ryanair so its a turboprop with no chance to jet progression in todays market. If you do manage it you will be extremely fortunate and will be paid a paltry salary until you retire. Integrated will increase your chance by a small factor (hate to say it but true). Old FO's tend to get the hump sitting in the right seat for the rest of their careers. Buy a fast car instead.

[sirvans6]

hi...

i am about to finish my ME-IR next month, and i have approx. 200 hours and of course CPL.

i am 28, and i have spent about 4 years in the special forces, and that is the reason that i started my flight training a little later than the rest of the guys in my school.

i know that this is a subjective question, but how old is too old?

i can see that some airlines have a max age which is 35 or 45 for FO, but i imagine that it gets harder with age to get into a company.

best regards.

[B200Drvr]

I was 32 when I got my Comm, never held me back, I have not been unemployed for more than a month since that time (13 yrs). But then I went corporate and not airlines. Personal choice.

[FANS]

It really comes down to money. You can afford to do the training.

Can you afford to train without income for 2 years?

Are you prepared to work for ~£25k/year for a number of years? Lots of people say absolutely when they're at their nice but boring 9-5 job looking out the window, but the reality is when you're getting up at 4am for the 5th day on the trot knowing you've got tough, wintry wx ahead of you, it's a very different story.

Completely understand the heart over head point - it's the only reason anyone would embark on this career today.

Book yourself 4 sector flights a day for a week on EZY or something and see how the novelty wears off by day 5.

[Bloated Stomach]

I have the funds, I love flying etc etc but I don't want to be unemployed after 12-14 months of hard work...

You will probably be unemployed for a very long time (over 2 years). This is an honest view and not sugar coated.

[POS_INT]

I would say go for it, market is not as bad as guys on here make it out to be! you could qualify as a CPL in less than a year, take a line training programe with TR and fly a medium transport category jet. that the way most modern day CPL are going if funds are sufficent.

there is a hiring boom comming next spring, so get going with it now so as to not miss out. :ok:

[camel]

Don't know your personal circumstances re family etc ..you might consider

1 Do a class1 medical
2 Distance learning for the written exams
3 Do the flying bits
4 Don't give up the day job (this is the hard bit)
5 Find a flying job

Who knows what the employment market will be like in 1 or 2 years but if you have a fatpl you can at least apply for jobs.You may end up having to pay for a type rating,with no guarantee of employment.

As far as i know we only get one life ,if you want something just go for it!

Best of luck.

[deltahotel]

Not entirely clear from yr first post whether you currently fly yourself, or enjoy flying as pax. Suggest you do some GA to see if you A. enjoy moving planes around the sky and B. have any aptitude for it.

Should you consider aviation as a career, do nothing until you have a Class 1 medical and then read all the threads about lifestyle, Ts & Cs, careers and then think again. And again ..... And then consider the financial implications and the number of unemployed pilots.

Whatever you decide - good luck with it.

[C1Melbourne]

Greetings.

First of all, I have not used this forum for more than four years, so I apologise in advance if I've committed a terrible sin like posting this thread in the wrong place.

I'm interested in hearing from anybody in the airline world who commenced professional pilot training between the ages of 30 and 35, and can tell me whether being over 30 puts one at a disadvantage in terms of securing decent jobs.

I'm almost 32 years old, have done about 14 hours of flying lessons in light aircraft and am completing a Law degree in about four months. I never did serious commercial pilot training in my 20s due to financial constraints, but for over ten years now it has been a persistent dream of mine to be a commercial airline pilot. Despite working for a number of years in a Government Department I loathe this world and want to leave to chase the dream.

I want to commence a CPL course during the next few months, however certain people over the years have tried to discourage me by telling me I'm too old to ever make it to a major airline. They tell me it's a waste of time, but I'm not convinced.

Is there anyone out there who has achieved success in their aviation career after starting serious training in their 30s?

[redsnail]

What you need to ask is will an airline take a pilot with low hours commensurate with age in Australia and it's environs.

Best ask the respective airlines for their hiring trends. I doubt you'll get something specific re age as there's laws against it... But in reality, they won't tell you if it's an age v hours thing.

[drag king]

I want to commence a CPL course during the next few months, however certain people over the years have tried to discourage me by telling me I'm too old to ever make it to a major airline. They tell me it's a waste of time, but I'm not convinced.

Why does it have to be a MAJOR airline? Not interested in regionals, RFDS, GA-flying, corporate? QANTAS is shrinking, I've been told. Everybody else is doing the opposite.

Got going that I was 29 and by all means I am not even closer to the ideal (?) experience/age-ratio, although I am not a 250-hrs guy.

Good luck, anyway

[go around flaps15]

I flew with a Captain today who started his commercial training Integrated at 30 and went out into the right hand seat at 33. He got his command 2 months ago aged 38. This is on a Boeing 737-800 in Europe.

He started out with a plan and things worked out nicely. I have an iron in the fire elsewhere at the moment but if it doesn't come off, I'm hoping to have a shot at a potential upgrade at the end of the year. If it works out it will be from starting flight school(modular) to skipper just short of 7 years. I will be just shy of 31. Unfortunately I would envisage quick upgrades like this to come to a very abrupt halt in the not too distant future where I am.

It can work out quite nicely for some, but for others it can be a living nightmare both financially and emotionally.

If you are going to do it you MUST have a plan before you start out. I would imagine it being very difficult to get onto a Jet let alone any sort of major airline in Australia unless you have lots of hours. I have met a few Australians who have come over this neck of the woods to try and forge a career and it worked out, but as always with this profession there are stumbling blocks and inevitably casualties.

I wish you all the luck in this world if you decide to give the career change a shot.

[Lawyerboy]

Hello.

Haven’t posted for a while, so pls bear with me.

Back between 1996 and 2006 I learned to fly. Didn’t have much money, or much time, so I’d go flying maybe once a month or so. Wanted desperately for it to be the start of a career in flying – PPL, then ATPL, then job – and I got as far as my QXL and five of the written exams but then in 2006, for a number of reasons, I stopped. Life got in the way. I didn’t get my licence.

As often happens, though, life has a habit of changing and now some 7 years later I have the chance to finish what I started. But now of course I’m a little bit older; I’m going to be 40 years old this year. Let’s assume that I get my PPL this year or perhaps next, and then rush headlong into commercial training. Let’s assume I’m in a position, say within the next 3 or 4 or 5 years, to start looking for a job as a commercial pilot.

Have I left it too late?

All thoughts, good or bad, gratefully received.

[stn]

In the current climate anyone who leaves their job to become a pilot is utterly too late, no matter how old they are.

Here (http://www.pprune.org/professional-pilot-training-includes-ground-studies/418583-perpetual-am-i-too-old-thread-2010-13-a.html)

[PURPLE PITOT]

As above, anyone trying to get in now, regardless of age, experience, or wealth, is on a path to financial ruin. It's just not worth the investment even if you do succeed, never mind the risk if you don't!

[TizerTheAppetizer]

If it's of any comfort, I'm in my 40s and I'm planning to leave a very well paid job in journalism to train as a pilot.

I've had to leave it this late because of problems regarding my vision and the Class 1 medical.

With me it's been a lifelong ambition but it all depends on your personal circumstances. If you can afford to take the (calculated) risk I would personally go for it. Once you're in your 50s I think it will be too late.

But you do need to think about it carefully -- have backup plans etc etc. For example, would you go and live in China or the ME if that's the only place you could get an FO job?

[KAG]

TizerTheAppetizer: For example, would you go and live in China or the ME if that's the only place you could get an FO job?
I don't know about the other airlines in Asia and ME, but in mine in China basically 90% of the experienced ("foreigner") captains don't pass either the screening, either the CAAC sim check, either the medical. And that was for the pilots already "experienced captains".

That's not only a matter of "will you go and live in China", but a matter of "would they hire me" aswell: don't have the illusion this is automatic and only depends on you.

[j_davey]

What should I do hmmm.....

Anyone here start Pilot training while married with young children?
I have a baby arriving in 1 month, which I'm over the moon about btw...!

Is it completely the wrong time to think about stuff like this?

In started my training in Florida 5/6 years ago but didn't finish it.

My main concern is having to be based abroad should i end up getting a job, something I`m not really willing to do right now as i`m very much a homebird, Ireland is my home to stay as bad as it is right now :)

Thoughts? am I Mad?:}

[Artie Fufkin]

Not mad, but you do need to be able to go where the work is. Being unwilling to relocate from Ireland may severely restrict your options.

A certain person on this very thread has been moaning on pprune recently about getting his first job and that it was abroad (and boring, but thats another story...). Evidently it was something he didn't consider before starting training. Learn from his lack of foresight.

[TizerTheAppetizer]

TruckFlyer --I understand where you are coming from. The odds are clearly stacked against me.

If somebody of my age who is a senior FO said that he or she wanted to stop flying in favour of studying for an MSc in journalism with the ambition of working for Sky News or ITN, I would warn them that it would be difficult, but not impossible. I wouldn't discourage them.

So, your hard logic is going up against my dreams and my instincts.

I'm sure flying a light aircraft around at the weekend is fun, but I want to be a commercial airline pilot, which is something very different. I'm not sure what qualifies you to question my love for aviation, because I have a deep love for flying and a thorough understanding of what the life of a commercial airline pilot entails. Pros and cons.

And I'm not sure where you got the +5 re. my vision from, but I hope to get 6/6 in my weaker eye after surgery (I had a brief chat with my ophthalmic surgeon on Tuesday) so then the Class 1 should be OK.

Anyway, time will tell if you are right or if my instincts are right. I respect your opinions and I would appreciate it if your respected my ambitions.

[Artie Fufkin]

TF, you'll find that people usually find it difficult to trust the views of someone who says "do as I say, not as I did". If you hadn't had an ill considered mid life crisis yourself and then started moaning on pprune about the concequences, people might listen more.

[Garcy]

I've stumbled across this discussion and whilst I have noticed a few posts from current airline pilots, I feel compelled to chip in.

I've been lucky enough to fly Boeing's and airbus's best efforts. Im a slave to the company's roster, enjoyed the 5 day beach trips, endured the deep night flights, slept with too many hosties to remember, admired the nothingness at 30W, got the nod from mothers and daughters walking through the terminal, heard the best stories and Repeated the best jokes.

It's a job that I truly enjoy but the fact is, If I was getting paid £12k a year for it, I wouldn't be doing it and most of you wouldn't be considering it.

I do this job because it gives me the right combination of money, status and job satisfaction.

Don't sit around waiting for a green light. If you think you've got what it takes, no matter what age, go get it, it's bloody brilliant!

[TizerTheAppetizer]

That's what I like to hear -- positive comments from someone who's been there and done it and is still doing it.

Some of us are optimists and have a positive attitude to life, and enjoy life!!

Others, well...

If you want to do something in this world you have to go for it and take risks!!!

[DoobyDoo]

Isn´t the key question at any age: "if you do not succeed, will you still think of the training and the flying as a worthwhile experience"

At least, that´s what I asked myself in the end, after realizing that begging crystal balls for permission isn´t gonna get me flying. The answer may vary with numerous factors, and yes one of them might be age, money another one, committments of all sorts a third one, but the question remains the same.

[JB007]

See how easy it is to send wannabe's into the que for the slaughter house! Post all the good things about this job and because its what they want to hear, all of a sudden, the Wannabe Rose-Tinted RayBans appear!

I don't wish to knock the dreams, it's a good job...the industry stinks! Be very very aware of your options and overall chances with a new CPL, bugger all experience and lots of debt...

[Gentle Climb]

Tizer

I was very close to 40 when I started my flight training and I received my nice blue licence a couple of years later. I'm not going to go in to the reason why it was so late but your 'thats what I like to hear' comment set of alarm bells with me.
You are considering a complete change of career and I think that it has a lot of consequences that you need to think about carefully.
At some stage you will complete your training and you will head out in to the marketplace with your shiny licence, confident that you have the skills and abilities to be a very good first officer and that your 'life experience' will be a valuable asset to an airline. You may be right. However take a look at who is recruiting and whether or not they will look at an older new entrant. Ryanair, Easyjet, Jet2, Bmir? I don't know for sure about BMIR and while I can't say that the others won't look at you for sure, it is my personal view that you won't end up with them. So what are you going to do then?

Send out lots more CV's further afield and have same response. What then? Try some instructing or some towing or just about anything to keep you flying and current?

How will that feel for you? Would you regret investing money, time, effort and a career for what...? How about your family, how would they feel?
Thats what happened to me and I can tell you...it is a bad place to be!
I guess that isn't what you like to hear but really you need to have a reality check, the odds of you finding a commercial job are far worse than a Grand National outsider. Do you take that risk or not?

Even now, with a current position, would I do it again? In all honesty I'm not sure that I would.

[TizerTheAppetizer]

Gentle Climb -- I'm glad that it's worked out for you. Long or short haul at the moment?

I respect the advice that I'm being given here and it has dampened my expectations somewhat but my heart won't let logic get in the way. Even if I end up bush flying in Africa or Australia, I'll be OK.

The truth is that this is probably my last shot at something I've wanted to do all my life, but I've been prevented from doing so until not so long ago, when surgical advances mean that I can now get 6/6 in an injured eye (hoepfully). I've spoken to the CAA about it.

If I fly turboprops around Europe for the rest of my life I'll be a very very happy man.

And the age thing... some will consider me, others won't. Even if I didn't get my first FO job until I was 50, I'd still have 15 years or flying in me and another five years of teaching.

Why do we write people off so quickly in the UK? Being in your 40s or early 50s isn't old anymore. The airlines will have to catch with the rest of society on this one...

[119.35]

Did I miss something!? I thought Garcy just said the job was good??

He didn't seem to mention anything about getting a job on a jet in his 40s!??

And to say that you'll make it if you are willing to relocate to ME or China in your 40s is just wrong. Qatar won't take anyone experienced (non TR) who is over 40 fact. I imagine many others in the sand pit are the same, even if they don't advertise the fact.

Don't know anything about China but would be surprised if they don't restrict employment to their own nationals as soon as they possibly can.

Good luck Tizer as bloody hell you are going to need it. If you think advice from people within the industry are stamping on your dreams, then spend 2 years training, buy a ticket and join the game!

As you say, it's not impossible to get a job in your mid 40s but to get something that pays the bills is very tough indeed.

Good luck!!

[redsnail]

Even if I end up bush flying in Africa or Australia, I'll be OK.

Really? You can get a visa for Australia? If you can, great.

There is a bit of a shortage for GA pilots in Oz. Too many cadet style pilots ignoring the "whole going bush" thing and when they do, they haven't been trained properly in engine management and frying the engines on the 400 series Cessnas. (Pistons).

[Mamboz]

Hi,

I am looking for some guidance around whether it would be worth undertaking flight training at my age. I am slightly concerned I may be too old to start now.

On the upside, all going well pilots can fly till the age of 65. On the downside, the cost, especially with a family can be quite high and i need to decide whether continuing with my corporate career or making the shift.

If I do decide to undertake flight training it would be in the USA. My main motivation would be due to the cheaper comparative cost. Ideally the East Coast is preferred so that it is cheaper and easier to commute.

So....

1) Am i too old?
2) Recommended flight schools. Good all round training and cost.

[Lokki]

Are you too old? Not at all. I know of chaps older than you that started their flight training and they're flying right hand seat.

Having said that, I know 20+ year olds that can't find work.

It's all about who you know, not what you know..

[RemoveB4Flght]

When I was in new hire for my first airline job in my mid twenties, there was a fellow colleague who was in his early forties. He had left a career in finance to do what he had always wanted, so it's never "too late"

I don't think you're too old, but you should be realistic about the economic impact of the next ten years of your life. You need to cover the costs of training through at least CFI instrument, you can do the MEI later. You need to find a job that you can build the requisite 1500 hours towards your ATP. This is most likely 1 year for training (can be done in 6 months), and 2-4 years of instructing, flying small cargo, scenic flights, flying skydivers, etc. Multi time may be forgiven as regional airlines struggle a bit to find ATP rated pilots, but that can change as well.

Speaking of regionals, you are looking between 3 to 10 years of flying as a first officer. The first few years are tough both personally and financially, as 20 grand a year is tough to live on.

With a bit of luck, and some smart moves, you could be a regional airline captain in the next 8 to 10 years and fly to retirement making a respectable income, but you'll never get rich doing it.

A first officer spot at a major is also a possibility, but you'll be close to or past 50 at that point, and may not want to give up the perks of seniority (holidays off, choice of schedule/vacation, etc.) just to spend a few years sitting on reserve on the bigger iron.

Whatever you do, do your homework, make good training and career decisions, and be very sure this is what you want before you commit the time and money.

[fantom]

Friendly advice: just forget it; you have no chance.

Best wishes.

[Ianp83]

People regret action in the short term and inaction in the long term.

If you don't give it a go, in 20 years you'll be more senior in your current field, richer, with a bigger house, moaning about the things that you still hate about your job now and wishing you'd given it a go.

If you do it, you'll probably be moaning about a whole new set of problems, but you'll be doing it on your terms, doing your dream job.

I am 30 and going to leave my corporate job this summer to pursue my dream. If it all goes to sh*t I will go back to my current job or find something else to do, but at least I'll have given it a go.

I suppose the one caveat here is that I don't have kids yet so don't have to worry about providing for them. If you have the means to do it assuming no income for 2 years with £40-80k expenditure, then £20-30k salary for 2 years then go for it.

[Mamboz]

Thank you for your advise and guidance. I will still take the time to think this out. I have over 10 years experience in finance and that would always be an asset if i ever had to retire.

It is always tricky when you try and ascertain the opportunity cost of making a particular decision. At the same time the regrets of not doing something can come back to haunt in older age.

Decisions decisions decisions!!:confused::ok:

What schools in the US do you guys recommend?

[fulminn]

if you start to work immediatly after the licenses, so..no income

[Flying Farmer]

I've not posted in pprune for a while but for what it's worth my answer is....

No No and No do not do it. I retrained just over 10 years ago and the first job that paid a decent salary took me over 4 years to get, remember whilst looking for that first job you need to stay current, lets say instructing? unless you go the intergrated route (loads of cash, no promise of a job if older). Don't think you can go bck to your old job, thats not an option.... so can you afford on top of the training and possible type rating, to live on next to nothing for a few years.

A rough calculation on the back of a fag packet would tell me, my time out of paying work cost me over £100,000 on top of my training costs.

It's a very real scenario, my view is don't even try. The previous poster had it right an outsider in the National has a better chance of winning!!!

Regards and good luck.

Ohhhh it cost me my marriage as well, just a thought

[fulminn]

just an example:
i'm italian, 23yo
modular course in italy mcc etcetc+time building in usa=
64k euros, I never fail a mission, and I had all the times to study because i was supported by my family.
now in Ryr
total expenses 105k euros.(considering food, gas, landing fees...all the stuff)

Just for let you know how is today

[go-around flap 15]

If you have a settled family then flight training is almost a no go at the moment.

For example, working a 5/3 roster out of a base far from home where kids are settled at school and your partner cannot afford to become unemployed is a reality for many. Spending only one full day at home out of every 8 isn't a great way to live.

On the other hand if you have the money, flexibility and open mind to make your home where your work is then the best of luck to you.

[LPVL]

One question: what would be the best zone of the globe for a thirties-year-old guy finishing the ATPL to find a job.
I know in advance it won't be easy but I believe there are some more complicated places than others.

[M-ONGO]

Try Burger King.

[shaun ryder]

If you have a real passion for flying you do not have to pursue the dream of flying an airliner for a living to scratch the itch. I and many others will tell you doing it for a job is far less fun than beating up a grass strip in a SEP for the pure pleasure of flying. Like most of us who have not done it in years, flying for fun seems so much more attractive than the daily grind of being an airline pilot, I still have the passion but is it being fulfilled?

[Dogfactory]

I cannot believe how many negative posters here.

The negative ones are always those who already made it. Maybe they forgot about when they were kids.

[Dogfactory]

:) yeah, but everyone has got the right to buy a ticket. Then let natural selection do the talking. :)

[class2ldn]

Hi all, new here. Ive been reading alot of threads on here and am really interested in becoming a pilot. Im looking at doing a modular course but my question is , ive currently just turned 30 and have a full time job. How long does it take roughly? Also im currently in a well paid and secure job ( train driver). I assume if I became a fo for an airline id have to take some sort of pay cut but what do they start on roughly. Also am I mad for thinking about giving it up to pursue a dream job?
Sorry for the newbie questions.

Appreciate your replies :)

[stn]

Im looking at doing a modular course but my question is , ive currently just turned 30 and have a full time job. How long does it take roughly?Roughly two years if studying full time, but doing it modular way you can finish either faster or slower. Firstly, in your position: I wouldn't become a pilot but alas, no one listens here in wannabes forums so secondly, I'd train (ha-ha) so that I could pay my training without a loan. Pay as you go and work while you study.

Pilot's pay is sh:yuk:te on the lowest ladders and yet it's extremely tough to land a job in the current climate. It's a race to the bottom.


Also am I mad for thinking about giving it up to pursue a dream job? Absolutely.

[GibbyNI]

I’m at the stage in life where I can make a career change and would like to do something I have always wanted to do.


I started my PPL back in the late 90’s and pretty much got it before money ran out (about 25 dual and 5 solo) so unfortunately the dream of ATPL disappeared.


Now at the age of 35 am I to old to start off again?


Also at the age of 35 am I able to get a good return on the investment of training?

[Dash8driver1312]

There was a gent who started with my company at 40...buuuut I must also say that he had been doing a LOT of flying before that as a parachute 'plane pilot.

Good luck if you choose this path though. You will be looking at a couple of years before you are employable (fATPL etc), and you would be fighting a lot of furloughed people and other low-houred pilots.

I am sorry for being so negative in my answer but it really is a tough market now.

[Oscar95]

I'm in a similar situation as yourself. I'm 33, about 8 hours into PPL and hoping to change careers. I'm under no illusion however that if and when I got to fATPL chances of a job are slim but nothing ventured nothing gained. I'm planning to stick with the day job, go modular, try and avoid mountains of debt and see where it takes me.

[GibbyNI]

Oscar95, just out of interest where are you doing your PPL and what you think of them?

[119.35]

That's a good shout Oscar and the only way to go if you're a bit older (I.e not your typical 21 yr old integrated student).

Take your time, enjoy your flying and finish with the least amount of debt. The smaller your debt, the more chance you have of accepting your first job offer that quite frankly is likely to pay peanuts. And getting a gig in the RHS of anything, no matter what it pays, is incredibly tough.

Make plenty of friends and contacts along the way and the likelihood is one of those will get you your first job and not by sending CVs out or applying along with the other thousands should the occasional airline recruit which doesn't require experience on type.

Good luck!!

[Tacitus]

I too have started training late in life (I'm 33 now) as I wanted to do it debt free but now by no means I'm not in a rush to finish as early as possible. I believe that IF the economy is going strong and IF the airlines are hiring age wont be a significant factor. But now those two just don't happen and airlines prefer younger pilots. Generally speaking younger and inexperienced employees have fewer demands from the employer. Also people at my age are not willing to fork out that massive debt without a good return in investment, unless you are very wealthy of course.Besides many reputable airlines have an age limit for FOs.
Also there are many experienced pilots who are unemployed and in their mid 30s-40s, so we have a situation now where we have many young guys willing to spend a fortune, many older guys with experience and all of them are competing for the few places available. Does this sound promising for a mid30s career changer?
Personally I regretted that I didn't commence my training younger,
10 years ago there were better possibilities for a job and even if I was in debt I would have more time and fewer responsibilities in order to repay it.
Now in order to be a pilot you have to be young with plenty of money to spent. I don't know if im bitter or realistic but that's what I think.

PS Would be much appreciated, since BA and Ezy are (were) recruiting, if a typical 30 something career changer was accepted to proceed to their selection process. If such an individual exists would be nice to share his experience. It would be nice if someone prove me that im wrong with a recent tangible example

[TheDaddy]

Good evening all

I sit here before you as a 35 year old with the excitement of a 10 year old boy on Christmas eve. Actually the analogy is deeper than you might think.

For the last 12 years I have worked hard (bloody hard) and progressed well up the ranks as a Secondary School Science teacher. As any young lad will confirm, to get what you want at Christmas requires hard work before hand.
So now I have made the decision to retrain. To do something I have always wanted to do. I have 15 weeks of a PPL behind me and I am making plans to complete this and continue on to a CPL and beyond.

I've read all the health warnings that say there are no jobs in commercial flying, but I am now at a stage in my life when I can afford to train, but I can't afford waste more time before starting.

So as I embark on this terrifying journey I am writing this post just to say "Hello" to everyone here and to ask if you have any advice for someone in my position to advance quickly (but rushed) and to have the best possible chance of a job at the end of this. Please don't tell me not to do it, I need constructive advice please......oh and I know what hard work means.

Thank you very much

[Transsonic2000]

Hi there,

well, I'm pretty much in the same boat as you are, at least age-wise! And one important thing of advice I can give you, as time is the most critical factor to us, try to get through the theory (assuming you are going for the CPL with ATP theory credit) as fast as possible!!! If you can, go full-time and avoid these "distance-learning-courses" since they're quite frustrating and it's very difficult to stay motivated as a lone-worrier (which you are as a distances-learning student) I speak from my own experience. Distance-learning is quite tempting, because it says "learn anytime, anywhere" but looking back, one thing I'd most certainly do different is choosing a full-time classroom course instead a distance-learning-course, it might not save you money but most likely a lot of time, and finally time matters most!!!

And besides wishing you luck and success, one more thing, here is a must read for you - I can highly recommend it!

http://www.pprune.org/professional-pilot-training-includes-ground-studies/418583-perpetual-am-i-too-old-thread-2010-13-a.html#post4408362

[fepilot]

Apply to all the cadet schemes first.... Most airlines are doing this for - fo recruitment / experienced fo's- monarch/ BA/ Easyjet/ cityjet/ Aer lingus/ flybe / Qatar/ cathay pacific and many more all run cadet schemes. I don't understand how people can self sponsor with so few jobs available. These schemes offer a much better chance of getting you a job.
Phone the companies and ask them....before you start training!
Instructor jobs/ ryanair etc are an option of course

[DiamondC]

Regarding ATPL groundschool distance learning vs classroom, it really depends on your personal preferences. *Distance education require focus and motivation, but minimises time away from work and loss of income. *You will know for yourself whether you can stay focussed while studying independently or whether a classroom environment would be better. *I did my ATPLs by distance education while working in a full-time job, and it definitely required motivation and focus (and my social life was very quiet that year) but I finished all my exams within 12 months with first time passes and good results. *By working full-time, I also had more money at the end of that year to pay for my hour-building and CPL-MEP-IR than if I had taken months off work to study.

[TheDaddy]

Thank you for all the positivity and the very helpful responses. I have got in touch with a number of airlines and schools regarding cadetships. Seems that I've missed the boat on a load of them that recruited in the last couple of months. So I'll keep my eyes peeled for new opportunities when they arise.

My plan is to do things in this order.
1. Continue PPL at local flying school for the next few months.
2. Get Class 1 medical in the Summer (just to be sure)
3. Continue to look for JAA ATPL integrated courses and cadetships.
4. While doing all of those I'll crack on with the the PPL and CPL exams - this will probably have to be distance learning, although I have taken on board suggestions to the contrary.
5. Failing any cadetships materialising, complete my CPL.
6. Apply again for sponsored ATPL.
7. Do IR, MEP while looking for work as instructor
8. 6 again
9. Because beggars can't be choosers, I'm happy to pay my due as an instructor or even fly for Ryanair.

Am I missing anything? (Marbles not included :) )

[Libertine Winno]

The only thing I would add is to be aware that some cadet schemes (I'm thinking BA FPP specifically) rule you out from applying if you have taken any of the ATPL exams so just make sure you take that into consideration before taking them...!

[119.35]

That's hilarious!! Do you know how tough it is to get into Ryanair or any airline for that matter!??

One failed flight test and you won't get an interview and besides, as someone has already pointed out, you're too old for Ryanair.

Your location is Exeter, why have you discounted the modular route already? I doubt you will get on a tagged integrated course and an untagged integrated course, graduating when you are 37 is a waste of money over modular. It won't give you any advantage over modular and the FTO is extremely unlikely to be of any help. And even if they do have airline connections, although they probably won't admit to it, they will think that you are too old as well.

If I was in your position, I would go modular and use the money you will save for the almost mandatory type rating, if you secure employment? I think you've missed the boat on going integrated, but have a throw of the dice if you go into things with your eyes wide open. Unfortunately, your Ryan comment doesn't seem to indicate that.

Good luck - it's tough out there!

[TheDaddy]

Thanks for the tip Libertine!!

Thanks truckflyer

Didn't intend to sound naïve about Ryanair, I was just paraphrasing an earlier contributor.

I do have a partner and we have a one year old daughter. I also have some tidy reserves of cash which I can dedicate to training plus a couple of years max looking for work.

[119.35]

Yes it did amuse me and probably dozens of others, so thanks for that!

And no, I doubt you offended anyone at all, probably not even current Ryan pilots. You just displayed quite a level of naivety of the current job market and the aviation industry as a whole. Fepilot just said that they were 'options', you said 'even' Ryanair! I don't think that's paraphrasing. But we digress.

I agree with Truckflyer, you need to do some more research. Out of curiosity, do you know what FOs start on at Eastern or Flybe for example or what an integrated cadet is likely to take home in their first 8 month flexicrew contract, before being stood down for the winter at Easyjet (before the cycle repeats itself)? Or how the integrated flex contracts tend to work for tagged schemes? These are just tiny snippets of information in the bigger picture of the industry that you are hoping to work in and that's just on the recruitment side.

Thanks for the put down 'I'm glad it amused you' comment, that amused me also. But why do you think that your biggest contributors to your post are from Truckflyer and myself so far!? We are both older and have young children and have been through all of exactly what you are planning on doing and it aint no walk in the park!

If you re-read my post, excluding the bit about Ryanair that you didn't like, you will see constructive comments about both modular and integrated. You are ideally positioned to take advantage of 2 good modular schools on your doorstep (it's gold dust to train close to home with a young family - I had a weekly 5 hour commute each way to get to Exeter). And don't discount doing your ATPL theory distance learning so quickly. Being a teacher you obviously have more study techniques and discipline than most. I did it full-time and passed all subjects first time with quite a high average, like most who do the course to be honest. It's tough due to the length and breadth of the subject, not that the course material is actually hard (give or take a few bits and pieces like Polar Steriographs or whatever they are called!?). 6 months of study at home versus 6 months of theory study away is pretty attractive. Probably like you I could be flexible and be away from home for extended periods, but **** always happens and its nice to know you can get home if needed?

I initially considered integrated, but the advantages were outweighed by the disadvantages due to my age and personal circumstances. Consider how long and where each of the different elements of training are conducted and how they will affect you? Like how long you are going to be away from home at anyone time and how easy would it be to get back should you need to? A good FTO doesn't necessarily mean that its the best fit for you? This only tends to apply to people in their early 20s with no ties etc. I wish I lived where you do as I could have done my entire flight training on my doorstep!

Don't be taken in by the gloss of FTO marketing. Unless you're on a tagged scheme, integrated or modular, you're still effectively on your own. A new employer is always going to ask you to pay for your first type rating one way or another. If you go modular, you will probably save the cost of a type rating. And the gloss of an FTO on your CV doesn't tend to open any doors for you and if anything, can sometimes put some TP operators off?

No one is trying to bash your enthusiasm, just trying to help you see and consider all options that are available to you. So many people post on here who have already made up their mind and discount anything that they don't like to hear. Posting from the outset is a great start, use pprune as the powerful tool it can be to gather and draw upon experience from like minded people who are doing it or have done it.

Like I said before, good luck - it's tough out there!

[TheDaddy]

Ok, thanks 119. I certainly had no intention to show any naïvety about the industry at all with my use of the word 'even'. I've taken on board what your saying though.

I've not dismissed modular training at all. In fact, right now that is almost certainly what I am going to do.

I won't allow odds to stand in the way of my aspirations. I'm very determined to have a damn good go at this.

This will probably be my last post on this particular thread as I think I've been given most of the answers I need for the time being, but I ought to say this first. Thinking philosophically, in three years time I will be 39, will have my PPL, CPL, IR and possibly a TR, I will be £50k-£100k (or maybe more) worse off and I might have a job as pilot. What I definitely will have, though, is three years of great experiences and a whole load of achievements I can be proud of.

[119.35]

TD - if you're going modular, you definitely have to pay AFT (although they don't do ppl) a visit. I can tell you straight off that they are certainly not glossy and their aircraft are old, but they are extremely well maintained and the whole time I was there, I never lost a single lesson due to an aircraft going tech. But what you will be impressed with is their quality of instructors, the personal level of training you receive and all the photos on the walls of past students - it's full of harrier, tornado and red arrows pilots to name a few. They are a good price, no hidden extras and they are the opposite of money grabbing. I travelled the width of the country every week to get there for a whole summer and it was worth it.

It depends on how quickly you want to get through everything, but you could happily stay working through your ppl, atpl theory and hour building and quit work when it comes to doing cpl/me/ir full time. As a teacher, I assume that you get chunks of time off, so you could start and finish your ppl during the summer hols for instance? You're in a very good position in this respect and even with working up until cpl/ir, there is no reason why you couldn't finish everything within about 2yrs.

That's a great attitude and enjoy your training and the lots of friends and contacts you will make along the way. Quite often it is these very same friends and contacts that will get you your first job. Whilst late 30s is getting on a bit by airline standards today, it's by no means impossible to get into the RHS commercially. I started too late really and had hoped to be qualified by 39 but the recession bit hard, so I used the whole 3 yr atpl theory validity period before doing my cpl/ir. I got my first and current job on a light jet at 42. Not the heavy metal that Truckflyer flies, but my goals were always to get into bizjets for the lifestyle and I was lucky to have some good friends in influential positions.

In 3 years time the industry could be and is likely to be a very different place. We are seeing the green shoots at the moment, albeit primarily in the increasing number of cadet schemes. But whilst it is extremely unlikely that we will ever see another boom time in recruitment, in 3 yrs time it probably will be a lot better than now - hopefully!

Good luck with your training and let us know how it's going? Please feel free to PM me with any questions, especially if you want some more detail on AFT? Exeter is a great place to train and the scenery in the area is fantastic. You are very lucky, even if you chose to train further afield.

[119.35]

TD - one thing I forgot to add is if you haven't already, it's a good idea to go to Gatwick for your initial Class 1 Medical?

You don't need Class 1 for your ppl, but it's always wise to get it out of the way early and to give you peace of mind that you can get one? You don't want to be ready to start your cpl and then find out that you can't get one for some unknown reason?

[TheDaddy]

Yep. Hoping to get my medical done in 3 weeks time. Tried to book it on Friday but got an answerphone. They haven't replied yet.....

[squall1984]

35 isnt exactly old lol, he still has 25 years left in a career and I would be shocked if he would spend 25 years at RyanAir, so realistically what would their reasons be for not hiring him? With age more often than not comes maturity (sometimes not all the time) and other life experiences. Saying 35 is old is like when you're a 10 year old and you think your parents are old. In the states you would be lucky to be in a 737 by 35...granted our retirement age is 65 but still.


I think anyone that is older and trying to get into the industry should consider their situation, its fine for people to follow their dreams etc etc etc but that doesnt put food on the table for your family and spending a large sum of money on a second career takes away a lot of funds that your family could use. If you still want to go for it, then do it as cheaply as possible whilst still working pref at your original job, that way if it works out that you make it in aviation then great if not you still have your work. Time is obv very important factor, my experience with students is you learn faster and progress quicker the more often you fly, and that doesnt mean flying 8 hours a day either but more over a period of time, find balance between training and your responsibilities at home.

[squall1984]

25 years left in a career is longer than most people flying at RyanAir have been alive...just saying ;)

[sb3ugs1]

Good afternoon all,

Ive just been reading this thread (for the past 30/60mins) and was left excited and daunted at the prospect of changing my career and becoming a pilot...

Im 36, a teacher (a-levels) and have '£20k for training' - one of my biggest concerns has been age and the chances of getting a job. The general consensus is its not too late, but its going to be difficult. Am I right in this?

I am taking my Class 1 Medical first (at least Ill have peace of mind / or will save myself 000's if there is a problem identified now).

I have already decided that I will train at local schools in a modular method whilst continuing working - this with my savings should prevent any large debts occurring - I am also fortunate that my wife has a very good salary who can cover our cost of living. Would you agree this is the best way forward?

Its funny that the people I have spoken to (at flying schools) are all very 'optimistic' about job prospects whereas there is far more caution on here (maybe the salesmen coming out of the schools?). My dream is to fly and if I can get paid for it this is a huge bonus... can anyone provide advice as to the types of employment opportunities there are if getting a position with a airline isn't probable. Obviously instructors and banner ads type, but are there any others? Are there any job sites for pilots? Also how difficult would it be to set up a business ding leisure/tourism type flights? (just as another avenue of gaining employment).

Finally, as I mentioned earlier, im looking at doing the training at local schools - probably at Teesside or Newcastle airports, does anyone have any experience with these airports or any schools in this area?

Any comments, suggestions or feedback would be appreciated. Stuart.

[driftdown]

FWIW I was not successful in my career change plans and so after accumulating 1300 Total hours / 300 M/E PIC I gave up and concentrated on financial recovery. 3 interviews in 4 years, oh I was 40 years old when finishing training / hour building.

Yeah I know, obviously a failure, not made of the right stuff whatever that is :* anyways the point of this is I had 3 years of great experiences seeing things from the air that others would never see, popping into ATL in a Seminole sequenced among 75's and 73's. I hung on to the "experiences" as a useful place to justify the 100K spent (costs plus loss of earnings).

I am lucky. I have made a fairly strong financial recovery just not "there" yet. Every day I look at my wife who kept it all together, mortgage stress, downright bad attitude and thank my lucky stars because the home reality right now could be so much worse.

So what is the point of this?

I have had some great experiences so why bang on... The reason is that at a rather later stage of my working career I find myself having to now suck up life in another sandpit country. It has some "good" points, hell I am still earning a salary but that 100K would now have allowed me to say thanks but no thanks. Roll back time, with that old benefit of hindsight then would I have started training, no way!!!.

Just saying......

[Dogfactory]

...I believe flight training is not something you should do with a wife waiting for you at home, counting the days to have the satisfation to tell you "I told you so"...
Gotta be on your own, to smack your head on the wall or succeed.

[driftdown]

Really...:rolleyes:

Anybody in a relationship who starts off without the full and unqualified support of their partner is probably not only going to suffer from the stresses of training but also ending up with a separation.

So your relationship is going to go down the crapper about as fast as getting a non-SSTR job. End result a whole lot of nothing, except of course a mountain of debt but "great experiences" :ooh:

[PURPLE PITOT]

Also, in the unlikely event that you do find a job, you will find that the joys of rostering/being on the wrong side of the planet, lead to a rather high divorce rate anyway.

[SuperJet]

I am getting tired of the debate raging on when a prospective aviator is 'too old' to launch a career in aviation.

I have had 'old crusties' looking at me, in my mid-thirties, saying "Ah son, you're too old now. Better give up and do something else"

I have had the younger "upstarts" boasting that they have 8-10 years advantage over me.

Either way, it's never nice to have someone telling you that what you have been fighting for, for many many years, is now beyond your reach. :sad:

Peronsally, having put in 12+ years in operations, commercial and other aviation fields, and having achieved a PPL under JAA and 130+ hours, thats not a bad way to go so far. Yes, time is always against self-training pilots, but, it begs the question - when IS it too late?

I know a gentleman Captain from the Scandinavian region, who kicked off his career in his early forties, and blasted through his training, and straight into a job. Currently, as he approaches fifty, he is flying a gorgeous private jet round the world... :cool:

On the other hand, I also know people who have given up in their late twenties, because of cost, time, and disillusionment...

Either way, the preconceptions about age are saddening. :sad:

What do we think about this? Is a mid-thirties person too late to get flying? Doesn't necessarily mean flying an A380 straight off the bat, but even small commercial ops, like sightseeing, parachute drops, seaplane tours, commuter hoppers...

Would love to have some opinions... bonus points for up-lifting positive opinions! :ok:

Cheers all :D

[Squawk 7500]

You say you're tired of the age debate and then start a new thread on this very topic!

You're not too old!

(Is that what you wanted to hear?)

[SuperJet]

Its subtle phraseology - "tired of the debate" meaning, would be nice if it came to a distinct conclusion for everyone, but of course, this is not a real expectation that anyone would hold to. Its purely a phrase.

As for hearing what I wanted, no, honesty is preferable... Good or bad, in my opinion...

The thread was intended to explore aviators', current and aspiring, views on age limitations and the realities of achieving our goals against the background of an industry which seems to punish the more senior protagonists... :ouch:

If you're serious (Squawk 7500) about mid-thirties not being too old, then that is a nice sentiment, and reassuring for the struggling ones out there, myself included.

I had recently read a comment on a thread concerning licencing gaps in regulations, relating to transferability and validity, where someone was complaining bitterly about their current job - right hand seat in an A380!!! - calling it "too restrictive" and "going nowhere"... Yet some of us will not be lucky enough to reach that kind of role, despite having the talent, skill, drive and ambition... and the longer we fight the battle to get there, the less chance we have... :*

Some people eh..?

;)

Keep the comments coming...

[muadib]

Hey there!

First post so I'll try not to brag too much.

I started the PPL course at 34 (last year), I have only 35 hours, my goal being to reach as high as I can while at the same time enjoying the ride.

I don't know where I am going to end up, PPL, Frozen ATPL, astronaut, but I try not to listen to opinions based on stereotypes, 'cause they tend to keep things and life in general from being different and interesting.

Your topic came up through a google search while I was a bit sad from listening to thoughts about such age-based stereotypes and, I have to admit it did made me glad.

So, thank you for this!:ok:


Have a nice day, you all!:)

[Private jet]

If you're happy to be an instructor in a small flying club/school (god knows why) then you're never too old.
If you want to finish as a longhaul airline captain in a legacy/major airline then you should already be a professional pilot in some capacity by age 30, otherwise you're probably too old.
Everything else is somewhere inbetween.
There are exceptions of course (if you have "connections" for example) but generally the older you start out the narrower the options become. Thats a fact of life i'm afraid, not just in aviation but in most lines of work.
My advice, dont start at all now unless you like gambling with a lot of your own time, effort and money. Only start if you have a guaranteed job to go to. The pilot market is flooded, and i dont see it changing anytime soon.

[MCDU2]

Depends what gig you are after when you finish your training. If its a private jet or niche operator then fine. Only proviso is that you are aware of the money on offer over a career and the often 24hr on call basis that these jobs bring.

If its an airline then think long and hard. Firstly getting into an airline as your first job when you are late 30s or 40s is tough enough. Airlines like young keen individuals that are unlikely to rock the boat. A family person who has a previous career is unlikely to fulfill this criteria. Think CTC and the lucky few that are getting selected into the current cadetships at BA and Aer Lingus.

But if you are in the lucky few that do jump through the hoops and beat the odds then there is a long seniority system ahead of you.. If its a loco then you probably wouldn't have gotten the job in the first place (allegedly if T&E is to be believed). Starting at 40 you will be around 1-2 years in training making you say 42 when your licenced to thrill. Time to command would be at a minimum of 6-8 years in most operators. In ours its something like 10-12 for a short haul command. 6 years minimum before you will see the RHS of something bigger than an A320/1.

Then there are the medical issues which unfortunately as we get older become more statistically likely to hit us.

Think long and hard before putting your family through all of that and come home with a roster without any weekends off and Xmas away from the kids.

[Jon25143724]

Hi all,

This is my first time posting on a forum. Since I was a young teenager I wanted to be a pilot and in my early twenties I applied to become an RAF pilot.

Unfortunately I was unsuccessful and pursued a career in aerospace engineering where I still work as I was unable to fund my own pilot training due to the expense. For the past ten years I have always looked on in envy at others that have had this opportunity and wished that I could have made it.

However, I now have some savings and have recently passed selection with a training school and now find myself doubting whether it's the right career for me. I enjoy flying (have flown gliders) and am confident I will enjoy flight planning, pre-flight checks, take-off and landing, but have a doubt as to whether I will find the cruise phase boring? I'd like to know from any seasoned commercial pilots out there what exactly are the tasks to be performed during the cruise? Is it boring?

I have a wife and 5 month old daughter so it is a big decision for me to leave my current job (although I don't enjoy it, it does pay well but not as well as a pilot!) and train for 2 years not knowing for sure if I'll enjoy the job.

The only other option I see is to complete my training modularly, while I work. However, I have heard that airlines much prefer pilots to have trained on an integrated course, such as the one I will be doing. Plus, the fact that I'm 32 and the modular route will take me some time to complete, I feel that I may be too old after training for airlines to be interested in me.

What would you guys do in my position? Any advice or comments would be much appreciated.

[darkroomsource]

Pilots get paid well?
Not right away, that's for sure.
You have to have years of experience before you can pay off the loans you got to get your training.
If you're thinking of flying for the money, think again.

[nunofrednunes]

First of all i would like to thank everyone who goes through the trouble of reading what I'm about to write, even more to those that take their time to share some experience and knowledge.

I found out about this forum in my "national" aviation forum (in which I cannot, for the life in me, understand why registration is closed) and decided that although "stranger's" opinions shouldn't be the fuel for my decisions; might as well be a larger field of "stranger's"and make it statistically more valuable from a sample point of view. I have read most of the earlier posts in this thread (also a lot in the integrated Vs modular thread) and decided to post my own question because of a combination of twists that (i think) make my situation different than most.

The question is the usual one: I'm 33 and after earlier attempts (failed for financial reasons) to launch myself in a pilot's career, now i face what is probably the final time in my life where i consider a career in the aviation business. Should i do it??
Since very early in my life i was drawn towards complex machines, particularly airplanes, because of their combination of things that i love: mechanics, physics (in a very practical sense), need for human performance... and after realizing that i wouldn't be a good candidate for the military life as a pilot i tried to turn towards the civilian side of aviation, only to be stopped by the prices of this education, lack of family support and no real chance of getting a bank loan.
I studied Sports Sciences (the human body is the most complex machine...) for 5 years, became a P.E. teacher and coach, did a masters degree in youth training for another 2 years and was starting to settle my professional life in order to fulfill my dream with a PPL (HERE COMES THE FIRST TWIST) but after that, my lovely country in all its professional fairness decided to blow up my future and instead of advancing in my career i am now unemployed and loosing most perspectives of having a job worth keeping in the sports and P.E. world...
On another end, fate has proven that it is trying to tempt me and (HERE COMES THE SECOND TWIST) through my saving of money and some inheritance money i am now able to pay for the aviation education (even the instructor part) without getting myself in a loan situation.
Lastly, although not being a real twist from the most common intentions in this type of question, I'm not focused on a particular side of aviation careers. I would probably be very happy as a flight instructor (I'm already a teacher!), an A380 captain and anything "in between and around". I just want to fly and have a decent paycheck in the end of the month. This can be particularly important since i wouldn't have to keep paying a loan after getting a job flying.

Although not very fresh, i think my physics and math knowledge are enough. The English language is almost like a native one to me.
I have a wife but no children, and she's also in the same professional situation, being a teacher...

It may seem that the obvious choice is to go for it but the last thing i can do now is act on my passion alone and forget rationality. It is enough money to pay for my house mortgage, buy another house to rent or even start a small business in order to get myself out of unemployment.

Any thoughts?

[Genghis the Engineer]

Hi all,

This is my first time posting on a forum. Since I was a young teenager I wanted to be a pilot and in my early twenties I applied to become an RAF pilot.

Unfortunately I was unsuccessful and pursued a career in aerospace engineering where I still work as I was unable to fund my own pilot training due to the expense. For the past ten years I have always looked on in envy at others that have had this opportunity and wished that I could have made it.

However, I now have some savings and have recently passed selection with a training school and now find myself doubting whether it's the right career for me. I enjoy flying (have flown gliders) and am confident I will enjoy flight planning, pre-flight checks, take-off and landing, but have a doubt as to whether I will find the cruise phase boring? I'd like to know from any seasoned commercial pilots out there what exactly are the tasks to be performed during the cruise? Is it boring?

I have a wife and 5 month old daughter so it is a big decision for me to leave my current job (although I don't enjoy it, it does pay well but not as well as a pilot!) and train for 2 years not knowing for sure if I'll enjoy the job.

The only other option I see is to complete my training modularly, while I work. However, I have heard that airlines much prefer pilots to have trained on an integrated course, such as the one I will be doing. Plus, the fact that I'm 32 and the modular route will take me some time to complete, I feel that I may be too old after training for airlines to be interested in me.

What would you guys do in my position? Any advice or comments would be much appreciated.

I'm an aerospace engineer, and I trained as a commercial pilot about your age (modular, in my own time). Rather earlier, I did a couple of PPLs and associated ratings whilst raising a family. So it can be done.

Being harsh, it seems to me that you don't want it enough if you haven't in the decade or so since you made your RAF application, done a PPL, or some variation thereon beyond a bit of gliding. If you didn't want to fly enough to do that, you don't want it enough to drop everything and put your family massively in debt to do an integrated course now.

However, this doesn't stop you doing a PPL now - and why the heck shouldn't you. The flying should be fun, the price affordable (compared to the rest of it) and you'll be a better aerospace engineer for the understanding of aviation that this will give you. It did me anyhow.

Most people in the industry with nothing to sell will tell you that modular is the better route - it's the same licence, it's typically half the price, you get a few more hours. The biggest airlines prefer integrated graduates for first-job pilots; small taxi-type operators and flying schools prefer modular because they have more independence and breadth of flying experience. Once you've done 2 years as a professional pilot, neither give a stuff how you trained - they care only about your ratings, hours, and personal attributes.

So I'd say:-

(1) Find the money to do a PPL, get a class 1 medical en-route.
(2) Ask lots of questions whilst doing it.
(3) Once you have a class 1 and PPL, re-assess your aptitude for and interest in piloting.

And at 32 you're a youngster - take the good income from (I'm guessing) Airbus, use the PPL to make you a better engineer, consider however if you still have a passion for flying beyond private flying and a few self-flown business trips, then going modular. ATPL knowledge and a CPL will make you a better engineer again - and then aged ~37 - still young with a 25++ year flying career available to you, you have the option to apply for flying jobs from your comfortable engineering job.

There's absolutely no sense or reason in taking a massive leap into an overpriced integrated course, and still less in doing so without knowing your own medical standards and aptitude and passion for flying.

As for boredom - I would seriously consider a full time job as a test pilot, or even something like SAR. The idea of taking a substantial paycut from my mid-career professional engineering job to monitor an autopilot and be ruled by an airline roster does not massively appeal. For me a day job in aeronautical engineering, using an aeroplane to get around Europe to the odd meeting, and a bit of part time instructing and ferrying works very nicely thanks. There are many more ways to earn a good living in flying than sitting in an airline cockpit. Also consider that an Aero-Eng with a CPL has open to him a lot of very interesting technical jobs not open to an Aero-Eng with no flying experience. Also consider how many more fATPLs without professional flying experience there are, compared to the number of jobs for such pilots! Throw in the relationship between training debt and starter-pilot-salaries.

If you want to discuss offline, by all means drop me an email (not a PM, I won't get it).

[SuperJet]

Just wanted to respond a little to what Genghis says.

We all have differing experiences, but I would agree with what most of Genghis says, from my own experience.

1 - Absoultely agree that raising a family and doing your flight training is entirely possible. It is workable.

2 - There is a natural and understanable hesitation in changing career in your 30's (or 40's, or....) as you have invested your time in one career, and built a life on that basis, including for some, a dependent family, so, I do not agree that you "don't want it enough". I have made huge efforts at a few junctures in life to embark on the flying career, and have been "shot down" a couple of times in a major way, which can severely delay progress. I see it the other way from Genghis, though I fully respect his views, and that is that the fact that as you are seriously considering taking this risk at this time, means to a certain degree, you are committed. If you weren't, you would shy away from even considering this risk. That said, the desire and need to do this, has to pound through your heart and soul, or, this industry will sweep aside the un-committed.

3 - There is a golden nugget of advice in what Genghis said, and I applaud him for this. Do your PPL. Don't even think about it. Don't finish today without signing up for a PPL course. Do it. It is your first step in any case, and it will teach you whether you are made out for this career or not. Not everyone is. When I completed my PPL, way back in 2009, the feeling I had has not been matched to this day. Beyond words. Just do it. You will not regret it. Sign up asap.

4 - Airlines prefering the Integrated cadets/courses? Not any more. it was a flash-in-the-pan many years ago, because the airlines tended to have a hand/measure of influence in the course content and structure. These days, that premise is dead. I would say, in your circumstances, go modular. Its more flexible, less of an all-out commitment, and you can move FTO/TRTO if you're not satisfied with the training you get more easily. I hire pilots as part of my job, and I give brief attention to where they trained or on what kind of course, and focus 90% on their hours, accomplishments, length of service, types flown, progression, etc. IE: how have they managed their career progress? And as Genghis also says, very correctly in my opinion, employers tend to see if youre appropriately rated and experienced, and thats it. The next place/opportunity for you to fail to get the job comes at interview, where your commitment to safety and your tech knowledge will be tested. Last stumbling block is personality. You can ace the requirements, the tests, and still be a total *******, thus your attitude and self-presentation will be a deciding factor.

5 - The combination of Engineering/Maintenance and Flying Experience is a concept I have been pushing for a long time. I feel that Engineers and long-serving Operations Officers/ATC/Dispatchers make the best future-pilot candidates, because they are exposed and tailored to the requirements of a commercial operation already. Engineers especially, as they already know the workings of the equipment, the limitations, the requirements, the documentation, etc. I would say you already have an advantage, which is one more reason to go for it!

6 - Bored? Bored in the cruise? In all honesty, that is the least of your concerns. There is ALWAYS something going on on the flight deck, routine or critical, otherwise, something is wrong. I once walked onto the flight deck of a Monarch B757 from LGW-SSH, and found the crew sat with their feet on the console, reading novels! Shocking. Thats not how I was trained to behave on the flight deck, cruise- or no-cruise phase! Perhaps I am wrong...

7 - The is a constant debate about the number of jobs versus the number of applicants. I prefer to look at the positive on this. Airlines are ordering big. Huge orders. Lots of airframes coming. Some manufacturers have massive backlogs on the assembly lines. Demand there is outstripping supply. This is a good thing. Unlike in 2008-9, where 'discounts' on cancelled orders were up to 25% to move the airframes off the assembly line, once initial 'optioner' pulled out. I can see a large number of varied flying roles being advertised all the time. Airlines are gently lowering some entry requirements on certian fleets, and gently increasing the benefits in contracts, to attract pilots. many are now quoting "No type rating necessary" or "type rating supplied by company" or "Improved contractual conditions" or "Immedaite Start". Put all that together, and it seems positive. Also, I have even offered roles to out-of-work crew, and they have rejected the offer of work, and remained unemployed, waiting for something "better"... being picky! So, there must be a degree of comfort felt there.

Hope this helps. This is all based on my experience and knowledge. There will always be those with different experience, and that is equally valid.

[talkpedlar]

1 Regardless of your ambition, motivation, education, wealth, talent, experience, age, religion and sexual orientation...

With all the information available on Pprune, if you still have to ask "Am I too old?" ..

Yes! You :mad:ing are!

[PilotAlpha]

sorry if this question has been asked already in the forums but right now im feeling kinda worried I just need to find some solutions to my situation

I currently on (easa) ATPL (frozen) training by the time I will finish my license I will be 35

what are gonna be my chances to find a job? I dont care about payment i just wanna be able to work as a pilot

[SuperJet]

To my compatriots talkpedlar and truckflyer,

While what you say may be true, then again, maybe not, I just wanted to refer you to a lovely Irish chap, quite wordly in his experiences, an inspiration for millions of people around the world, who went by the name of William. Or to be more exact, William Butler Yeats. He famously wrote:

"But I, being poor, have only my dreams;
I have spread my dreams under your feet;
Tread softly because, you tread on my dreams."

Just saying... ;)

I've seen those in less-than-perfect scenarios overcoming the odds and making a success of themselves. Best not to discourage those with the courage to ask or to try. They're the ones who make it. I have known:


A 40-yr old starter who is on private jets now in the EU
Someone who was told they were too old and too unsuitable to fly commercially - last seen flying for BMI - at age 41
A marketing manager who turned commercial pilot at 43, now on EMB135 Legacies
On office clerk in London who went all-out to get flying, and is now on A320 with British Airways, at age 36
An ex-RAF Loadmaster who became a 4,000 hour aerobatics instructor at age 52


Muadib, Jon25143724 and Nunofrednunes, keep your chins up, don't fall foul of the Nay-Sayers (even if they might be right!), age is just a number (up to a point! :( ) and aim high. Don't look back in 10-15 years and regret that you didn't try. :D

Nothing ventured and all that...

[Bealzebub]

Airlines prefering the Integrated cadets/courses? Not any more. it was a flash-in-the-pan many years ago, because the airlines tended to have a hand/measure of influence in the course content and structure. These days, that premise is dead

What utter rubbish!

Airlines look for pilots in two major categories.

The first are experienced pilots with significant airline or military experience behind them.

The second are "cadets" who are low hour trainees brought onto what will inevitably be a very steep learning curve. Most cadet programmes are tied to an established Flight Training Organisation through a full time integrated course of approved training.

Far from being a "flash in the pan," there has been huge growth in these programmes tempered only by the general economic downturn of much of the last 5 years. Where (despite the recession) there has been growth, it has been satisfied largely through these two routes.

15 years ago the requirement for a (non approved) CPL in the UK was reduced from 700 hours to 250 hours. This reflected the aerial work nature of the basic licence and brought the UK into line with most other ICAO member states in this particular regard.

As a consequence of these changes, not only did it bring more licence seekers into a very crowded arena, it opened the floodgates. Thousands and thousands of CPL holders believed that airlines would be tripping over themselves to buy the services they thought their licence offered. Whereas for most airlines the requirements changed very little, save for an expansion in those approved cadet schemes.

Present evolution in the ab-initio airline pilot market points markedly to a rapid growth in MPL based training programmes. Indeed that expansion has already started.

People will believe whatever suits their circumstances, but that doesn't make it true.

[Jon25143724]

Thank you all for your replies.
Darkrromsource: Could you elaborate on your reply? How much do pilots earn on average then? When I say I earn a decent salary it's about 36K plus bonus and profit share which bumps it up to around 40K.

After speaking to some current commercial pilots I was under the impresion that the salaries are as follows:

First officer: 45K + flying pay
Captain: 70K + flying pay

Obviously this will vary depending on airline, with easy jet paying less and ba paying more. Am I wrong?

Thanks.

[Jon25143724]

Thanks superjet for the advice. I'll be signing up for that PPL as soon as I get back to the UK. I'm working in france until the new year and think it's best I do all my training in a language I fully understand. I do speak french conversationally but when it comes to learning to fly I feel that I'd rather do than in my 'mother tongue', plus is the license the same in France and the UK?

[Madpaddy]

So any pointers in getting the cash/loans to achieve a Cpl etc, while paying a mortgage and supporting a family?

[lightning bird]

Actually could somebody eleborate on this "unless you have connections"...I find this sends a chilling note down the back of my spine, this is air safety and professionalism we are talking about , not a mafia crime syndicate...if i was employing someone to fly a multi million pound jet with passengers the last thing on my mind would be "your connections", but it seems to be a re-occuring theme about how well connected your are!!!

[Bealzebub]

Yes, it is often referred to as "networking." In other words "keeping in the know" or "keeping an ear to the ground." Referrals from people working in an industry may sometimes allow people to get early notification of a company that has upcoming vacancies. Similarly, references from somebody already working for a company might help an individual to get an interview or to have their CV's stand out from many similar ones.

Obviously, it guarantees nothing. However it can be a useful addition to the job seekers toolkit. There is no particular correlation with either "professionalism" or "air safety" since networking is not a substitute for either.

Whatever job you are applying for, professional and personal references often play a significant part and "flying a multi million pound jet with passengers" is no different in that respect. Companies are looking for the best people they can recruit, and a reference from somebody that has an established and respected track record within that company may provide an advantage in some cases. However, in itself it guarantees nothing, and is not a prerequisite to selection or employment.

[lightning bird]

Ok thanks beazlebub under those circumstances, it makes sense, I guess I can understand it, but I just wish the term wasn´t thrown around so much. Hope you can understand the obfuscation I feel when I read posts with almost the precise words "unless you have connections", hundreds, often bringing abrupt ends to meaningful discourse.

[Running Footman007]

I am currently studying CPL theory and I was born I 1958,plus I have actually been provisionally offered a job,also I know a chap who is 67 yrs of age and has just completed an FI course, so all you thirty and forty folks you are mere youngsters!

PS, any tips on staying motivated ?

Best regards.

[p1flyer]

I concur. I've been listening awhile and now made the leap. It's nice to read the stories from all the members. I'm well over 40, hell well over a number higher than that but it's all about your mind and spirit that keeps you young. I've taken a big interest in flying in my later years and I look forward to many adventures in the future.

[adelta]

It´s nice to read the stories of more mature people entering a flying career.

I have a question specifically to do with the cadet schemes, and I apologise if i has been answered already in this super but very long thread - I am too old after all to read it all thoroughly (plus, I am at work :ooh: ).

BA´s cadet scheme is open to those up to the age of 55.

Considering everybody says that airlines recruit "future captains", how does this fit in if you were applying at the age of 50, it does not seem like you´d ever make captain, unless you were incredibly lucky.

This leads me to wonder, if they open the cadet scheme up to the age of 55 purely in the interests of statistics and to show willing, but in reality would not give you equal opportunity.

This was suggested to me, and I have to wonder...

[plannertk]

Age should never be a barrier to achieving your goals.
From the age of 12 it had been my ambition to qualify as a pilot. However for medical reasons this never proved possible. Earlier this year (after many attempts) I finally resolved my medical difficulties, got a class 2 medical and have embarked on a PPL ...at the grand old age of 61. Ok, I recognise that I may never actually make a living from aviation but I'm having a hell of a lot of fun in C172, and may even get to be an instructor...who knows.
You can have a great career outside aviation (I did) but life is short and time moves with frightening speed. If flying is your dream go for it. At age 40 you are truely still a kid !!

[lightning bird]

Just wondering how fluid is a career in the aviation industry, for instance everyone states a given amount of years until command and so on, almost as though set in stone. In other industries you may be able to progress quicker within a company, on a meritocratic system, based on performance, attendance record e.t.c. Is it not as such in the aviation sector, there must have arisen times when an individual has been at the company for the time to command yet still incompetant and an oppurtunity handed for someone will less time within the company to leapfrog, or is this not the case and companies have strict guidelines on how long it should take pilots to progress, for reasons which hopefully someone can inform me on.

[career2]

I'm currently playing sport professionally but at the age of 32 need to start looking at new careers!
I've had a few flying lessons in the past for pure enjoyment but am now looking at it as a potential career. I was wondering if anyone could shed any light on the following:

Can you be too old to begin flight training? Is it a viable options at 32?

Is the job market as buoyant as the course provider tells me?
Are there jobs available for newly trained pilots?

Are there any sponsorship schemes available?

Any advice is happily received!

Thanks

[magicmick]

Hi career2

I will try to answer a few of your points, firstly age 32 is not too old to begin training, depending on whether you train all the way through to CPL MEIR full time or part time you will be 34 – 36 when you complete training. Probably too old to ever make it as a long haul skipper on a national flag carrier airline but not too old to have a very satisfying and lucrative career.

Regarding availability of jobs, you can read about that on various threads on PPRuNe, to save you a bit of time:

There are very few jobs for low hours freshly qualified people and there are thousands of low hours freshly qualified people chasing those few opportunities. If you are exceedingly lucky you might land something but you need to be prepared for the possibility of finding an extra £30,000 or so to fund type rating and also be prepared to have travel to another country or continent to find work.

There might be a shortage of experienced senior Captains but there is absolutely no shortage of low hours people looking for work.

Do not believe what any training school tells you about the job market, they want your money, the truth is awkward for them and stands between them and your wallet. They won’t be any help to you when you’ve finished training and looking for work, they’ll be concentrating on signing up more students.

There are mentored, part sponsored and sponsored schemes out there, Aer Lingus and BA are both currently running such schemes. The BA scheme has just opened for applicants, I believe the Aer Lingus scheme is now closed for applicants and they are currently going through the candidate selection process. Depending on your nationality then Brunei and Fly Dubai also have schemes going.

There are ex pro sports people that have gone on to successful careers in the airlines, Tony Underwood (ex England rugby) started his flying career with Easyjet and I believe he now works for Virgin. Also I recall and ex Ireland rugby player (can’t remember his name) who went on to fly for Ryan Air. If you play sport at a high level (national, international or Olympics), are well known and have a good reputation then an airline might want to employ you and make use of the PR value of employing you, I remember when Easyjet took on Tony Underwood the papers were full of the story. Probably not much PR value if you don’t have a good sporting reputation, for instance if he did his training then David Beckham would have no trouble getting an airline job but Lance Armstrong might struggle!!!!!!

To offset the financial risk you might be able to earn from your sport during flying training by continuing to play at a pro level, coaching, writing for papers, magazines etc, tv/ radio commentary or writing a book.

However as for everyone committing to flying training, there are no guarantees, it’s a huge gamble and you should never gamble what you cannot afford to lose. If you’re married and/ or have kids you will also need the support of those closest to you during your training.

Hopefully this has given you food for thought, the final decision can only be made by you and I wish you all the best in whatever you decide to do.

[bbl]

hello
i'm new here.
i'm 41, i'm trying to fund myself to get train for airline pilot in canada, am i way too old?
i was worked in a wrong industrial in the past, and now, i want to correct and restart myself again.

please help to advise. thanks a lot.

[Doug Mills]

I was 30 when I started flight school but on a self sponsored cadetship with a guarantee of a job. That was 4 years ago. I have been flying for a regional for about 3 years now.

For older pilots it is very difficult to get an airline job. The airlines see older pilots as slower to train compared to a young 20 something. This has been said by trainers at the airline.

The jobs front is still bleak. There are plenty of jobs for captains and experienced FOs on type with 1500+ hours on airbus or boeing. Prectiaclly no regionals are hiring with some firing pilots. Expect to start on about 25K GBP at a regional at the most. This is what i started on and am still close to this. The chance of getting into BA is slim so dont go off flight training expecting to go to BA when finished. All easyjet, Ryanair etc pilots will be applying too so you will be up against stiff competition.

Ryanair is pretty much the only game in town for new cadets and expect to pay after flight school close to 40K before you are paid. A guy I know connected to recruitment in Ryanair told me 3 years ago that the unofficcially dont take guys over 30. I was 31 at the time and was told to put 30 on the application.

I traing with some guys 4 years ago who were aged in their late 30s early and mid 40s. All are still trying to get an airline job. The best option in this situation is to become an instructor but this also costs more money, about 7k+.

If you get a job expect to have to move to a different country as if you get Ryanair you will have to move to continental europe and bid to get back to the uk but there will be a lot ahead of you trying to get back also.

At the budget carriers you are a contractor. If you dont fly you dont get paid. If you get sick and cant fly you dont get paid. You will have to pay all your own expenses at some of them. Like your hotel, transport, uniform, meals, training (every 6 months) as well as pay an accountant. So while their pay seems good when these expenses are removed its not that great. You wont be entitled to any social welfare if they dont roster you over the winter either as you are technically self employed.

[Chriswatters]

Hi Guys,

I am making initial enquires into a second career as a commercial pilot. However, I do have concerns about my age (46) and how this will be received in the industry and my ability to find work as a First Officer. From my reading I understand that there is officially no upper age limit (given a reasonable retirement age). I am trying to gauge what the reality would be if I went ahead with the training.

To give you some background , In February 2014 I will leave the British Army after 28 years. I am an Officer in the rank of Major and academically I have a MSc Disaster Management and I am a graduate of the Royal Military Academy Sandhurst and the Defence Academy of the United Kingdom. I am a British Citizen, I have the ability to self finance and I am in very good health. Given this, I understand that I am technically able to apply. My question is, would an airline want to employ a 48 year old First Officer with no experience given this as a second career. A second question is, do you know if many have taken this route and been successful.

I am under no illusions of the career progression prospects and although not impossible, achieving Captain maybe a stretch given the 15 or so years of employability I would have in the industry. This is not my driver. My motivation is that of to fly (and of course earn a reasonable wage). This is a life ambition that I only now have the opportunity to achieve.

I was hoping someone might be able to give me some clarity on my ambition or at least your opinion in order for me to make an informed decision.

Regards,

[magicmick]

Hi Chris

I’ll try to pass on some hopefully useful(ish) information from my perspective, I am also ex military though I was not Army and did not rise to the lofty heights of commissioned rank. I was a senior NCO aircraft engineer with the RN (try not to hold that against me). I left in January 2007 after completing 22 years service so a mere boy compared to your 28 years service.

Like you I had long harboured an ambition to fly commercially but never had the spends to complete the training, however my gratuity fixed the financial problem and the pension kept some cash coming in while I was training. I completed my PPL and night rating in Florida in Summer 2006 as my resettlement, the resettlement grant pretty much covered the cost and all I had to fund was the return air fare to Florida.

At the time the recruitment situation was buoyant, low cost airlines were recruiting hard and fast and UK flying schools were struggling to hold onto instructors as airlines kept poaching them so the signs were good for future employment. To be brutally frank if the economic and employment situations had been as harsh back then as it is now then I probably would not have bothered training.

Once I left the RN, I signed up with Bristol Groundschool for written exam study, the school were brilliant and are recognised by ELC so I was able to use an ELC grant towards the price of the course.

I started getting back into flying training with hours building in Spring 2007 and finished the instrument rating 12 months later in May 2008. Right up until the end of the instrument rating the employment prospects were looking good and the flying school I was at were losing instructors to the airlines on a regular basis. Unfortunately we started to hear rumblings of sub prime mortgages in the US, phrases like ‘credit crunch’ were being banded about and everyone with money in Northern Rock wanted to get it back again. That really started the spiral into recession, airlines like XL and many other smaller operators went bust putting hordes of pilots out of work and the good employment prospects were suddenly turned on their heads. Since then I’ve had one sim assessment and interview with an airline which I made a right pigs ear of and rightly was not offered a job.

I am still keeping the IR and medical in date while working in the military aviation world as civvy contract engineer which pays well but the work is pretty soul destroying and definitely not what I want to be doing.

I’m not sure if my age has held me back or whether other factors like the recession, airlines going bust or cutting back expansion plans and the rise of ‘Pay To Fly’ schemes have played a part. Probably a mixture of all those factors really.

If flying really is your life dream, then if you don’t attempt to realise that dream it will gnaw at you for ever. Even now when we go for our 2 weeks in the sun and turn up at the airport I still get that child like enthusiasm for the dream (sad really for a grown man). However I also get those pangs of anxiety and guilt for spending so much money and time chasing a dream that has thus far been unfulfilled and I can’t help wonder what we would have done with the money if I’d worked in engineering as soon as I left the RN. Sometimes my wife looks at houses in estate agents that are beyond our means and I always wonder whether we could have gone for it if I’d not done the training.

Do I regret doing the training or am I bitter at a dream thus far unfulfilled? Not a bit. Do I feel frustrated, impatient and angry at times? Yes, at times but thankfully I have a great family around me who snap me out of it.

Obviously if you have a spouse or partner and family then you absolutely have to be certain that they are behind you in your ambitions and that they will not be left short while you’re training and if you’re successful while you’re on a meagre wage as a junior pilot. My wife has been absolutely brilliant and has bought into the dream just as much as I have and she feels that she has been through the flying training as well.

One option worth considering is the British Airways Future Pilot Programme which I think is still accepting applications, the programme has been running for a couple of years now and I understand that they have accepted people in their 40s onto courses in the past. I also remember reading about an ex RAF Engineering Officer that got onto a Flybe cadet scheme though Flybe seem to be laying people off at the moment. The cadet schemes do not have a guaranteed job at the end of the course and the financial burden is borne squarely by the cadet but they do offer the best safety net available at the moment.

I’m not sure how much of your resettlement time and money you’ve already used but you can get your training kicked off with those resources and make full use of ELC money towards training.

One vital thing is networking, if you know serving or ex military pilots then get hold of them, they will probably be able to hook you up with contacts within the industry who will be like gold dust when you’re looking for work. If you train at a school where commercial pilots work part time as instructors or hire the aircraft for recreational flying then get to know them without stalking them.

Obviously your successful military career will furnish you with a shed load of transferrable skills that employers will understand and appreciate and while absolutely no-one in any industry (not just aviation) owes you a job, the military service will stand you in good stead.

You will also need a ‘Plan B’ ie another salary paying trade or career to fall back on to keep money coming in when you’re looking for flying work, my Plan B was engineering and that has ensured that since completing training I have recovered every penny that I spent a few times over.

Finally you might want to consider copying your post in the Military Aircrew section of PPRuNe, current and ex military pilots on there may well be able to offer you advice or maybe help hook you up with some contacts, it’s a long shot but worth a go.

Ultimately commercial flying training is a huge gamble with your time and money as the stakes. It will take you 12 to 18 months full time to complete everything, will the employment situation be better then? That’s part of the gamble and you should never stake what you cannot afford to lose.

A lot of information and much for you to consider, if you want to know more then feel free to post any questions here on open forum or PM me if you prefer and I will try to answer them for you.

A few years ago I was in your position, I made my decision now it’s your turn. Whatever you choose to do I wish you luck and hope that it all works out for the best for you.

[bbl]

i should be start the training next year, which before my age of 42. i'm not sure if i can get a pilot job or not, but i guess it is my only hope for the future.

[bbl]

what is your age now? :P

[RestUnknown]

Hi all

Like the thread title, I have a law degree, but the last few years, becoming a pilot is becoming more and more profound in my mind. I read around and asked around but I was wondering what do I need to learn to be able to get started?

I mean, my mathematical skills have been not used for over 8 years and therefore I literally don't know how to calculate basic stuff. I remember I was quite ok with math when I got it before I went to university and believe with some sort of reminder course I would be able to get back on track. But of course you have math and you have math, what kind of math do I need to be able to perform well to get started in the education.

Also are there any other things I need to be able to do, like physics,...?

I live in Europe, I don't know if this is any different than in the USA or other countries?

But most importantly, is this actually still possible when I'm at this age? The main goal would be a commercial pilot.

Thanks!

[redsnail]

Personally, a law degree will be far more useful because you can read the contract that'll be waved at you... :mad:

[TheChitterneFlyer]

You'll be very surprised by the huge amount of calculations that you'll have to make in order to pass all of the CPL/ATPL test papers.

Most certainly, in the math area, a firm understanding of trigonometry is essential. As for physics, a good basic grounding is all that's required, though, if you can master both, your progress will be much quicker.

Start with a PPL course and see how you get on before you commit much funding towards the higher level stuff.

There are many ATPL question banks (on the web) that you might wish to peruse. They'll give you a good idea as to what level of math, and physics, that are required for the exams.

[RedBullGaveMeWings]

You need the basic, GCSE stuff. If I can make it, so can you.

[Salomanuel]

*************************

[Dogfactory]

I'm from Italy too, and let me start telling you that there are many times in life when one has to decide what to do, not only when you are young. So, no problem if you feel some time was wasted before, you are still in for an aviation career.
Myself, I have discovered an alternative career to piloting as Flight Dispatcher. But even that, I can confirm you that the only way of doing something in aviation is MONEY. Because, whatever path you choose, you will still need time to follow courses here and abroad (with all relative expenses); it is true you can be a pilot in a few months, but that means you must have the time to be there every day.,... in other words, you'll need MONEY. Have you got that? Fine. If you haven't, your passion for aviation will still be lingering in youtube videos.
I believe you should not be confused by the utopic or non utopic side of the matter. Leave that for later and now just concentrate on finding the bloody cash!! :eek:

[agfoxx]

Hi guys,

I'm 37, a career journalist and currently head of a big department in the BBC. But…. I've been wanting to fly since I was 10, and I've had a PPL for the last 10 years or so.

Sadly, I've let it lapse because of lack of money. But I've had a check ride in a C172 recently - and I was told I was "surprisingly alright, given lack of currency".

I'm at the stage where I think I've achieved all I'll ever achieve in my career, so a handbrake turn is needed, I believe.

So - here comes the perennial question… Am I too old? Should I bother? Incidentally, I have a 10 year old son and a mortgage. Oh, and although I've lived in the UK for 15 years now, I'm still not a UK national - I travel far too much to qualify for a British passport. I do have the full right to work anywhere I like in Britain though….

Thanks for any suggestions!

[Parson]

agfoxx,

At some point you will have to give up your career with the Beeb. Could you get by as freelance journo? If so, you could do that to keep some money coming in while completing modular training. After that, you could build experience as and where you can find it while still doing some writing to supplement your income.

You would appear to have the ideal back-up career to complement flying, so I'd say go for it.

[Salomanuel]

***************************

[portsharbourflyer]

The PPL is a minimum of 45 hours of training.



The CPL is a minimum of 25 hours of training, but for a combined CPL / MEP it would be 17/18 hours training in a single and 7/8 hours training in a twin.
The combined CPL / twin test will save you an examiners fee, but if you fail or partial then retaking the test in a twin will soon start to mount up.

So the CPL is actually more expensive per flight hour, also factor in the cost of the hour building between the PPL and CPL.

Be very careful using JAA approved schools in America, not so much an issue with the training standard, it is just some of the characters involved in running flight schools in the US have had interesting pasts.

So make sure you research the schools history, it is hasn't been unknown for a school to go bankrupt with students money and then to find the same set of people running a new school a few months later.
Quite often these JAA schools do mark up the prices for the JAA approval, so if you are going to train state side it is better to do FAA ratings and the convert them back in Europe.

A single engine CPL without the MEP/ IR will allow you to do paid instructing, if you get the FI rating. In Europe single engine GA jobs which you could do in theory without the MEP/ IR are quite rare (aerial photography, banner towing, scenic flights, para dropping).

[BIGS]

Hi All

First of all, this is a very interesting thread and in the last hour or so reading it, I have learnt quite a lot.

I have a quick question for those with airline knowledge regarding my career move.

I have an FAA CPL/IR and I have spent the last few years based in the UK (I am a UK citizen) but flying all over the world as co-pilot in a turbo prop (MTOW over 5700 KG) I have managed to gain a couple of thousand hours doing this. Seemed like quite a good move when the aviation industry was in a really bad way a few years ago.

As the industry is sort of recovering (I am very aware things are not great yet) I have decided that at the age of 35, I should convert to an EASA license and compete some extra training. I have put aside enough hard earned cash to complete all necessary training plus some more for a type rating or whatever I may need to get an airline position.

My question is this, with my turbo prop experience even though it is not airbus time, and at my age, what are people's opinions that I may find a position with a UK airline.

Is the experience I have gained attractive to an airline, or was it a waste of time!

Many thanks for your help and advice.

[Parson]

BIGS, you should be able to pick up a TP job with that experience. I would hold off doing a type rating, esp jet, until you've explored the UK job market a bit first. Could be a waste of money or even go against you.

[Spidermann]

This has been a real useful thread to read. I was wondering if 25 was too old to start training but I think the answer to this is no. My decision now is to make my mind up over airplanes or helicopters.

[karanou]

you are exceedingly lucky you might land something but you need to be prepared for the possibility of finding an extra £30,000 or so to fund type rating and also be prepared to have travel to another country or continent to find work. ......

Correct in a fashion however Id add the following

To be clear on this point: even with a type rating and currency there is still quite a queue for these jobs.

I know of guys with ratings on B737 and A320 who cannot even break into the market half way round the world on chicken feed wages

Also there are guys out in these jobs with unfrozen licences and jet experience hours into four figures cant find a way back into the UK

Do comprehensive research on both the European marketplace and the UK marketplace. Never forget the training schools have thousands and thousands of reasons to tell you exactly what you want to hear.

[mid30smelbournegirl]

OK I'll bite. I'm 34, Australian, and considering applying for a pilot programme here in Melbourne (Jetstar). Just wondering whether it's worth it. It's an enormous amount of debt to get into (AUD$130,000) and I'm not getting any younger for career prospects.

Anyone got anything to say about the programmes down here?

[Reverserbucket]

I have an FAA CPL/IR and I have spent the last few years based in the UK (I am a UK citizen) but flying all over the world as co-pilot in a turbo prop (MTOW over 5700 KG) I have managed to gain a couple of thousand hours doing this.

BIGS - great experience but how have you logged this time? Do/did you hold a type rating on your FAA CPL or was this SIC on a multi-pilot type? My point being that EASA differs significantly to the FAA in this area and as rewarding as your experience has been it may be considered inadmissible toward an EASA licence (in the event it was a single-pilot type). Additionally, employers views towards 'structured' experience in the UK vs US differs as well; US regionals tend to treat hours as hours regardless of the type of flying however it's a bit different in the UK.

I wouldn't say age was an issue for you though.

[captainloulou]

Hi everyone,

I am 37 years of age, have a son and a mortgage, plenty of experience in management and customer service.

I have been fiddling about for the last 7 years achieving PPL, 150 hours and a night rating plus an 8th of the ATPL course.

Now is the time to decide to put everything at risk and go for it or forget about being a pilot and have some life long remorse!

I currently live in the UK but happy to move my family (they consent too!) anywhere in the world, as far as there is education and healthcare available.

I am planning to finance for a type rating and not bothered whether I end up flying a jet or a turboprop as far as I fly, I am all too aware of the salary difference between jet and turboprop.

So the questions is what are the odds of me getting into a commercial cockpit considering all of the above?

[ysbrydtawel]

I'm 21 years old, and I've always wanted to be a pilot, ever since I was a kid. I've been gliding for several years and love that, but I've also flown a Cessna a few times and it's just so much fun, and there's nothing I'd rather do than fly for a living.
I got into the best university in the UK (or the second best, depending where your loyalties lie!) but decided to leave as I wasn't enjoying it, and couldn't see myself completing my degree and finding a job I enjoyed and which paid well. Not many people leave my university for those reasons, but I'm still young and don't want to waste time doing something I don't enjoy. Money isn't everything.

Now I have a full-time job as a postman which I love. I don't see myself as defined by my job, I enjoy getting to know my community and take each day as it comes, and it's fun. For unskilled work, it pays very well and also we all got awarded free shares in Royal Mail which will be worth a few grand in three years when we can sell them.

I've worked out that if I save money frantically for 4 years, and only spend the bare minimum, I'll have enough money by the time I'm 26 to quit my job (or take a career break for a couple of years, which is like quitting but your job is guaranteed at the end of it) and do modular 0-ATPL training, and still have some left over for resits and landing fees. That would put me in the same position as I am now financially, but with an ATPL (f).

I'd then carry on working with Royal Mail and gradually fund hour building / keep current until I find any flying job in any location, and then do that to gain hours and eventually work my way up the chain. Maybe by then the market will be better and it won't take so long, maybe it won't be and it'll take years and years, but I won't have lost anything anyway.

How does that sound? Come on, how crazy am I?

[mominnz]

Hi everyone,

I have a an mid level accounts jobs and am 41 now with excellent health required for flying.
I have extra cash and am single. I would like to shift from my current profession to be a pilot as i have been interested since many years and do have some basic knowledge as much as an enthusiast would have.
If i were to achieve fATPL, what would be the chances of a person of my age getting work in any commercial airline to private jet airline.
I'm a British resident and would be getting my ATPL from Far East, so technically I would be looking for work around far east and where ever my license is eligible.

Any advise would be highly appreciated.

Thanks.

[1967kev]

Hi everyone,

I really need someone to be blunt and honest with me here.
In 2008 I joined NATS and trained to become an ATCO, almost validated and then for personal reasons had to give it up which broke my heart as I loved it.
I'm in a decent job just now earning a good wage but really miss the aviation side of things. I have never flown an aircraft but I'm earning enough money to start learning.
Realistically, is it worth my while, at the age of 32, to a) start training to become a pilot and b) expect a fruitful career as a commercial airline pilot?

As mentioned previously, I really miss the ATC side of things but now my life has settled down a bit, I'm considering getting my PPL and taking it from there.

All opinions welcome!

[Mikehotel152]

There seem to be a lot of people on this thread describing their situations but nobody has offered any opinions in return. :confused:

So, here are my thoughts. Take them with a pinch of salt, but I was 30 when I decided to abandon my previous career and I'm now in my late thirties and a captain flying the 737 around Europe. When I look back on all the twists and turns I can see where I got lucky, where my hard work paid off, and where I ws just in the right place at the right time. But times have changed.

1967kev - Changing career is a huge call. If you're settled, think long and hard. If it's ATC you missed, seriously look at that option, but why not get a PPL to scratch that itch? Flying little planes around the countryside is some of the most fun you can have in aviation. If you get the PPL, check our the job market again, but still don't think the employment prospects merit the commercial training, you still have a PPL!

Momminz - Health is a small part of it. Most people can get a Class I medical. As you get older the initial commercial flight training becomes much harder for the majority of pilots. The old saying about teaching an old dog new tricks has some basis in reality! I know. It took me longer than my sim buddies to reach the same level of competency as those in their early twenties who found it far easier and are therefore perceived by airlines as a lower training risk. That said, age brings maturity, which is a quality that serves you very well in a commercial flying job. Your problem will be the hordes of youngsters who will be looking for the same 'first break'. Risky but possible.

ysbrydtawel - I changed career to start flying because I did NOT love my job. If you love being a postman, stick to that, cultivate that career, and in the meantime get a PPL to satisfy your flying desires. With a PPL and the right attitude, and age on your side, you will be able to gauge the employment market in a couple of years time. If things look up and your PPL revealed a hidden aptitude, then go for it - but remember: the airlines are mainly recruiting through the integrated courses and your PPL could be wasted if you are later forced to embark on one of those massively over-priced schemes.

Captainloulou - Arrgh. Tricky one. Put it this way and remember it's just one opinion: At 30, with financial security and no kids, I was prepared to take the risk of being unemployed for a number of years. Now, with kids, a mortgage and a lot to lose, I wouldn't enter the commercial flying market if I had the same decision to make. At my current age and seeing so many friends from my ATPL studies who never got flying jobs, I realise I am very lucky. But if you have a carefully crafted plan and family support, a bit of luck, and the right aptitude for commercial flying, you could make it work.

Overall, most people seem to be saying that money is not their motivation. Good, because you will not earn a great deal as a commercial pilot. Unless you buy a £100k lottery ticket into a cadet scheme you might do quite well, but for the majority commercial flying is quickly becoming a paid hobby!

[flyingsnapper]

I realise that I am setting myself up to get a bit of abuse here as it is a long running and tiring question but to be honest no one that i can see has came up with a real definative answer.
I am 45, ran the family business for the last 20 years (wishing I had taken the pilot route when I was younger) passed all my ATPL's with 95% av 1st time passes.
Last Summer I started my CPL (decided to do CPL before my MEP/IR) but one of the major contracts my business had ended due to the company going down finacially and I pulled out of my CPL to stabalise the business, which I have done. As I have said before, I wish I had trained in my early 20's as flying is something since the age I could speak have been intrigued with.
So the question is Am I told old and should forget my lifelong dream or should I carry on as "Life is Too Short and all that"? I do know there are a few bitter pilots out there!!

[CaptainCriticalAngle]

Hello, I posted a reply in the Spectators Balcony the other day to someone who was worried that he was too old at 24 to start flying!!

The answer to your Q flyingsnapper is that only you can answer it.

I met a pilot last week at London City Airport who didn't start ab initio training until he was 49. He was a captain four years later.

Experience I would guess is a good thing to bring into the industry in such a responsible job, but if you don't have airline contacts, then I would go through an FTO that has really good contacts to maximise your chances.

Otherwise you're playing a poker game ...

[flyingsnapper]

Thank you CaptainCriticalAngle, that does give me a little to think about (and some hope) and yes I do agree with the contacts as like every job really "who you know" can be very importatnt or an alternative is "what you know about who you know!"

[truckflyer]

"CaptainCriticalAngle" - "go through an FTO that has really good contacts"

RED ALARM BELLS should go of when somebody writes such BS! :ugh: :ugh:

The truth is with no connections it will not be easy, but do not believe the FTO's will give a flying toss about you after handing them over £100.000, is extremely naive!

Starting now at 45, your chances are probably going to be very small to get an airline job. Of course depends on various factors, are you willing to go anywhere, and work for peanuts, even then it is very hard.

Family, children, house ... are you good to work for many years with little or no rewards, free time etc.

Big questions, with not enough facts to decide, but your odds are against you, not impossible, but not so positive outlook if you want an honest answer.

[CaptainCriticalAngle]

Truckflyer, it's just as well that 49 year old didn't come to you for advice when commencing his ab initio training.

He wouldn't be a captain now ... but stuck in his old job and unhappy.

You only live once. Someone who is 45 could make a great pilot and someone who is 21 a useless one and vice versa.

[truckflyer]

Not denying that can't be a good pilot smarty!!!

That is not the issue, however the odds of getting a job is closer to 0.01%, that is the reality and truth!
Apply the BA program when available, and if get in, good chance, other training will most likely be money lost!

Oh, why? Experience, I know so many, who don't even have age as an issue not getting jobs! Age will not put you first for sure!

Try if you willing to accept the real odds of not getting a job!

[Mikehotel152]

The other thing to remember is the following. It is important.

If you beat the odds and get a job, you will be offered terms and conditions that will make you question the sense of your £100,000 investment.

If you're a mature candidate you are likely to have a reasonable career, hence you must also build into the equation your lost income for the training years.

That £100,000 cost has now grown to £200,000.

Still feeling lucky? Still married?

[clunk1001]

MikeHotel has hit the nail on the head there.
But money is only half the issue - people established in professions tend to know their worth, and the total lack of respect afforded to pilots at the moment is unbelievable, almost laughable. And it will only get worse due to the growing trend to take cadets over experience.
Having qualified a few years ago (aged 33) I turned down an interview on the basis that I would not (and could not) work in the conditions being offered, not even for 12 months as a stepping stone. It was offensive.

Note : I originally said "people established in other professions" but that implied that "Pilot" is a profession, and it isn't any more :-)

[chriss92]

Having read some of the threads on here it has boosted my confidence a little, my story is as follows;

I've always known i wanted to fly from midway through high school, 21 years after leaving and a load of different jobs, i've never been happy in anything ive tried. Im 36 now, have 3 kids and a shared mortgage.

What i wanted to ask is if anybody knows of any kind of adult sponsorship/ similar where i could train for a career in aviation. I'm not too bothered about making captain, i just want to fly.

looking forward to hearing replies.

[chriss92]

Hi everyone, i've always been interested in a career in the skies but haven't got any of my licences yet.

Has anybody got any advice on companies that may sponsor mature students ( i know its unlikely) and what kind of Maths would i need to be conversant with to pass the training modules for a CPL ?.

I know that a PPL is the minimum requirement but im looking towards the future so i can ready myself for every outcome.

Thanks in advance.

[byrondaf]

Personally I would say if you can get onto CTC wings then it's probably the best chance for employment outside of the MPL schemes.

GCSE maths is sufficient. Just have a look online for sample pilot assessment maths tests and you'll get a good idea. It's nothing that taxing.

[JB007]

Hi Chris,

I'd start with getting a Class One Medical, just to make sure all is ok! CAA, Aviation House at Gatwick is where you'll do your initial medical, prices will be on the website!

[mcbenny]

Hi everybody!
As the title of my post says, it's time for me to make a decision about my future.
I'm almost 37 years old, I live in NE of Italy and I've been working as a truck driver for the past 7 years in order to save enough money to allow me to self-fund my modular training with enough cash to spare for any additional training that might be required during the ATPL phase and also taking into account the possibility of a type rating.
I'm single with the freedom to do whatever I want, self-funding myself so no need for bank loans or asking money to parents or relatives (even though the first ones unfortunately cannot be of any financial aid but for accomodation, and I would ask for help to the second ones only as a "last-ditch resort").
I had my Initial Class 1 at Gatwick back in 2005 and successfully revalidated it in 2011 so the Medical side of the whole process is OK! :ok:
Back then I'd have signed with my own blood to start my training but money was THE issue. Trucking seemed to be the perfect solution. I was determined in gaining my truck driving licences and lucky in finding a well-paid job with a big company (after 2 successfull interviews which unfortunately led to nothing!). Happy with my job even though (yes, you guess it!) I have no social life, living on the truck basically the whole week and often spending the weekend abroad.
So after all this effort, all these sacrifices, after climbing on top of this "big financial mountain" I'm finally in the position of quitting my job and starting my training.
I'm opting for the modular route for quite a lot of reasons and doing it full-time. Pretty "standard route" for that: PPL in USA, Groundschool with Bristol, back in the USA for hour building, then UK again for ME-CPL, IR and MCC (with the possible addition of a JOC).
As I stated earlier, being free to do and go wherever I want would allow me to accept any job anywhere.
I'm actually very happy about the way I've planned both the financial side of my training and the training itself, as I think I'm really doing things properly and carefully.
Still, it's a HUGE decision on my shoulders.
Leaving a fixed-term job in the current economical situation looks like hazardous to say the least even though holding a truck driver licence can be regarded as "some kind of a parachute", it's a good B-plan.
I do not take for granted that I'll get my licences, I know it's a lot of hard work and moreover I've been clearly out of the studying habit for the past 10+ years so it's gonna be quite a struggle at the beginning.
Finding myself aged 40+ with a frozen ATPL and no job at all...well, not the best of feelings I have to say! :eek:
At the same time, I recon this is the last chance, it's "now or never". It's a pivotal point of my life. After this ride, this struggle it'd be a "crime" not to give a shot at it; it's something I'd regret it when I'm an old man looking back at his life. My heart says "go for it!!", my brain says "wait a minute, this is a risky move".
I know, in the end, it all comes down to my own decision but if any of You guys would have something to say, pieces of advice, words of wisdom from lived experiences, that would be MUCH appreciated!:):D

[chriss92]

Cheers Byron, will check it out.

[chriss92]

Will have a look JB. Many thanks.

[fwjc]

At 35 I had had a PPL for quite a while. Even though I couldn't afford it all, I decided to train for my tickets because I didn't want to get to 40 and regret not trying. I did it modular whilst retaining a full time job, most of the time. I do have some loans as a result.
However I did it knowing that it could all come to nothing. Accepting that I have NO regrets whatsoever no matter what the outcome is. I'm (hopefully) a better pilot. And I know I tried my absolute hardest to get there. Nothing ventured, nothing gained, and I'd rather try and fail than not try at all. The cost, to me, was worth it.



I have done some part time flight instruction recently, and have just landed my first full time flying position (not as an instructor). It was not easy and I made a lot of sacrifices, but so far nothing I have regretted. BTW I couldn't afford to work full time as an instructor, otherwise I would have done. The job I have now is double instructor's pay.

[globalste]

I gave up a job that paid more than any flying job ever will, but it was also very stressful.

I was lucky to get sponsored by an airline and at 35 I have just unfrozen my licence. It took 3.5yrs to get from nothing to a full licence. I've wanted to be a pilot pretty much all my life, I was sponsored by the RAF through college and Uni but my eyesight let me down in 3rd year of Uni.

Now 15yrs on since the RAF dropped me, I have my full EASA ATPL.


Was it worth it?? I don't know. Airline jobs have so many annoyances with them that 9-5 jobs don't. Want to go to that wedding in 5 months time? Only if you can get the weekend off. Last minute holiday booking? Forget it. Summer holiday with the kids? No chance because its done on a stupid system called seniority.

Now, everyone can say "ah but you knew all this...". Nonsense. I guarantee that no matter how many bases you think you have covered, this industry will continue to throw open a can of worms at you.

[scttraveller]

I'm 29 years old from Vancouver, Canada. I have a Bachelor of Arts degree from the University of British Columbia. I came to this forum looking for advice on how to pursue my dream. I know this have been asked many times before, but every situation is going to be a bit different. Considering how expensive flight school is, I want to get as much advice as I can get so that I can make the best possible decision.

I know it's often been asked if it's too late to start a career as a pilot. Seems like if people in their 30s can achieve their dreams, I guess I can too. I haven't started flight school yet as I'm still thinking about how I'll finance my education and which school to go to. Base on my research, it seems like Professional Flight Centre may be my best bet. I have even went down there to talk to a flight instructor to get an idea of how much it'll cost to be trained.

My ultimate goal is to fly for a major international airline. Since I'm a Canadian citizen, Air Canada seems like a logical choice, but from what I gather, it's very difficult to get a job at Air Canada due to the number of jobs that are actually available. I guess competition is going to be very fierce in Canada. Is that still the case as of mid-2014?

An acquaintance of mine works for Cathay Pacific as a pilot. He is a former classmate of a friend of mine. He briefly told me how he ended up working for Cathay. Basically he started flight school at about 26 years old full time in Eastern Canada (Moncton if I remember correctly). As soon as he was done, he applied to Cathay Pacific's program and he was admitted about a year after. Upon completion of the training program, he became a pilot for Cathay Pacific. This is all that I remember from our short conversation. Is it really possible to become a first officer in a span of 3-4 years after obtaining a commercial pilot license? He was more or less implying that it's possible and yet from what I gather over here at PPRUNE, it could take much longer than that. Unfortunately for me, I don't have HK citizenship so I cannot legally work in Hong Kong. The acquaintance have not just Hong Kong citizenship, but also Canadian.

Right now, I am not fully settled in Vancouver. I don't have a car loan, mortgage, or any form of loans. I don't have a house. I don't have anything that will force me to stay in Vancouver. Is it easy for someone with a Canadian commercial pilot license to work overseas? In the news, they always talk about huge demand for pilots in China. In fact, there was a story in the papers about a pilot from a town near Chicago making about US$21,000/year jumping to US$90,000/year after moving to Tianjin, China. Is this a viable option for me if for whatever reason I can't secure a job with Air Canada or WestJet? I can also speak Mandarin Chinese and Cantonese so that's something that's been on my mind.

I know it'll be difficult to tell me, but in your opinion, how long will it take to obtain a commercial pilot license if I were to do it part time? If I remember correctly, the guy at Pro IFR said 1 year is possible if I were to do it full time, but 3-4 years if part time. I would like to do it full time, but I will need to work to come up with the estimated $35,000-$40,000 to obtain the commercial pilot license.

I'm not sure if this have been addressed before, but would it be easier and cheaper if I were to become a pilot through the military? Recently I became aware that the Canadian military is looking to hire and train pilots. I don't know what the procedure and commitment is like. I do plan on dropping by a local recruitment office to ask some questions sometime later this week. It seems like this will be a much cheaper option and I'll get paid while I'm being trained. I'm not sure if it'll be easy or not to transition from the military to civilian aviation. I'm also not sure if I will have to commit a certain number of years to the military. I have a hunch that may be the case. What are your comments on this scenario?

I know that there are other jobs with other companies besides the airlines. The acquaintance of mine told me don't pursue this as a profession if my only objective is to work for an airline as I may never get in. Any comments on that? I'm not saying that I'll have to work for a major airline, but at the same time, I don't want to be making $25,000/year or so for the rest of my life working for (not sure the words to describe it) the much smaller regional airlines. I would hope that after making accumulating enough hours and experience, I can at least have a shot at working for a major airline and get a decent salary.

Sorry for this long thread. My questions seem a bit over the place. I've been thinking about this for a few years now. I've actually been thinking about being a pilot ever since I was a kid, but being Chinese, my parents wanted me to go to university and be a professional (lawyer, accounting, and etc.). I had the conversation with the acquaintance of mine a few years ago. I never went through with it because the cost of flight school just put me off. At this stage of my life, I don't want to have any regrets. I only get to live once. I mind as well give it a shot considering I don't have to make the upfront payment of $45,000. It's paid by the hour so at least I can give it a shot and see where things will go. Your comments will be greatly appreciated and I hope it'll help guide me on the right path to pursuing this dream.

Thank you.

[Al Murdoch]

Just a personal experience for you guys: I started my flying training when I was in my early thirties. I had a good previous employment record which probably helped. I was able, in the middle of the recession, to get a job with a LCC and am now at a major international airline. Everything worked out exactly as I wanted and I am very happy in my job and career.
However - I have been VERY lucky in this regard. I know people of similar ages who for no good reason, have not been able to find employment in the industry. Despite the law in the UK, which outlaws ageism in employment, most airlines get around this very easily. Nobody has ever sued them (to my knowledge) so there is no case law.
It is only now that I realise just what a massive gamble I was taking with my career. It paid off in my case, but if I was to have my time again, I wouldn't take such a risk.

[stranger12]

Hi All,

I hope you are well.

I want to become a pilot and persuade my childhood dream which could not fullfill earlier in life. below is a short summary about me and what I want to do after which I will ask the questions I have in mind and will appreciate every single answer.


I am 27 years old and do not have any background in aviation etc .
I am working at the moment and touch the wood the income is ok to allow me to attain my private pilot license within the next 1-3 years for 45 hours of flight and doing all exams.

by that time I will be around 30ish and understand form reading around to be a commercial pilot, I need to have 200 hours of training .

questions I have are :

1. Am i very old to start this ? Can I start as late as 35 and become a pilot ?

2. what is the job market like, is it very tough to get in ?

3. is the salary range between 50-150K ( pound ) depending on experience ?

4. after the 45 hours of training in the UK, do I just need to do another 155 hours of normal flight or does it have to be on a multi engine aeroplane and I guess it will be more expensive .

I am currently paying around £180 per hour for training.

5. is the 8 poolys book all that is needed to read and pass to become a pilot ? This is needed for private license, are there more exams to pass for commercial license?

6. I am fit physically and have no issues however I need to wear glasses.
I also have filled tooth (about 5-6 ) and one tooth from the back of my mouth missing. I think i will be cetified for class 2 medical, however for class 1 medical certificate would my current condition be an issue?

I have always heard people saying if your vision is not perfect or have filled tooth you will fail but never did any investigation on it . I didn't hear this from expert but rather friend and family which is why I am asking for your opinion.

Your help is much appreicated .

I should mentioned I can complete this in 1 year if I can see a hope that from PPL I can move onto commercial license fairly easy as it will be a career change for me .

Many thanks and sorry if you get asked the same questions over and over again.

[Parson]

stranger12,

You need to do a bit more research, though given that you haven't undertaken much training yet, that is understandable.

You're younger than many who start out on the commercial route so that is not an issue. Before you spend too much money, get a Class One medical - that is imperative and don't listen to other peoples 'stories' about what's an issue/what isn't.

Worry about the rest later but do consider part-sponsored/mentored schemes at this stage.

[stranger12]

makes sense.

in terms of age, I guess that is not a significant factor , is it ?
I may get my commercial license in around 5 years and by then I will be in my early 30 .

I am planning to apply for job while working in my current job which is well paid and once found a job move on.

I have also seen people suggesting to do glider towing for hour building , can I do that with a private license ?

[Parson]

Your age is not a problem.

Yes, you can tow a glider with a PPL but getting a job doing so may not be that easy unless you have connections with a club. The glider club at my local airfield has several tug pilots and all are glider pilots who have upgraded to PPL. It is possible though and many have built hours that way.

[stranger12]

what would be other alternative ways of hour building ?

I have seen people saying you can buy a share in tha plan and rent it cheaper as much as £30 per hour.

also seen some advertisements of planes which old cessnas go for around 15-30K ( uk pound) so if I invest £10 or round there then i have a plane, right ?


most schools I looked at seems to charge around £120 per hour for solo which is rather expensive.

on some other websites I saw a plane which was for sale and also dry lease of £40 per hour .

what does dry lease include

I know I have asked many questions and will do reasearch however appreciate any input.


mainly what do you see as alternative to hour building .

for example have seen banner towing , glider towing etc which I guess all pay you but will be happy to do it for free. btw how much would they pay if they did ?

[Parson]

I assume you mean hour building from PPL up to 150 hrs prior to CPL following a modular route.

If so, you should use that time to get yourself ready for your CPL course. Speak to the school where you intend to do your CPL and get a structured hour-building progamme, practising the skills you will need. Also, familiarise yourself with the local area where you will be doing your formal training and get to know airfields, landmarks, airspace restrictions etc.

Structured hour building is another cost on the way to getting your licence. Don't go boring holes in the sky, make the most of it and enjoy. It will probably be the only time you have a fixed number of hours to fill in that way.

Dry lease excludes fuel.

[turbopropulsion]

That was nice of you to answer that for him. To be honest, he clearly hasn't done a single bit of research himself.

[stranger12]

@Parson, many thanks

@turbopropulsion, i think you are mis judging. I have done research but there is so much information that it can get confusing and still is so hence why any comment will help as i might be looking at the wrong place.

I am simply trying to see how I can do my hour building with out huge expense.

I am doing it modular as you may have guessed so after the 45 hours then i want to do hours as cheap as possible or even get paid :) if I can to build up to 150 hours

[Icepyropilot]

thanks for the great inspiration, i'm 48 with 400 hours on my private and am going to transition to being a commercial pilot from owing my own business. Finishing up commercial and then moving on to my IFR and multi engine. Any other inspirational words or advice you can give from your journey ?:D

[whentostop]

Having gotten into aviation on the wrong side of age 25 I will share my experience with you.

There is most definitely age discrimination in the industry. In fact it's rife. No one will ever admit it though. The preference for guys willing to pay for everything and work for peanuts has been adopted by many companies big and small.

Beware of the "my mate knows a guy who is a captain now and he started when he was like 45!!" Things like this are super rare and again anyone coming on her telling you otherwise doesn't know what they are talking about.

From the class I trained with a couple are on wide bodies, a couple are on turbo props and some dropped out all together. I'm in GA limbo treading water. The guys on jets were all foreign students. They all went back to their home countries when they finished. None of us locals ever cracked a jet job.

Unless you are prepared to drop 70k pounds down the toilet without getting upset, go ahead and get a CPL.

[WillMarks]

Hey guys , I am 28 years old , married with two children and I am prepared to go back to my country of origin (Brazil) to get my license , I have enough money to pay upfront for about 150 hours and take it from there but the " I am too old for this" is really bothering me , has anyone here got into aviation at my age ? Is there any advice you would like to give me ? Please bear in mind that I have lost a lot of sleep over this and It's something that has always been my dream but up to now I have not been able to do it so I willing (and most likely will) to go for it . I don't want to look back in five years time and regret not taken this shot .

[truckflyer]

stranger12

You are not legally allowed to get paid during your hour building! In addition even with a CPL it is very restrictive unless you have an AOC!

So the bad news is, that it is Pay Pay Pay!

"3. is the salary range between 50-150K ( pound ) depending on experience ?"

First do not expect to get anything near that kind of pay in the start. Starting you will be very lucky to have £1500 - £2000 after tax! If of course you ever get a chance of a job!

There are few stories of lucky people who get a job, I would not say your age is any issue!
Rather that you have the preservence and funds to keep you looking for a job in many years to come after spending close to 100K.

If you want an airline job you need to include a Typerating at one stage, that's why expect in total 100K for training.

[Nick H.]

Please try not to laugh, but to save me reading the whole thread, could somebody tell me whether 52 is too old to start from scratch and become a bush pilot in the back of beyond?

That would be my only ambition - bush pilot in the arse end of nowhere. Transporting cannibals for Susi Air in a Porter would be as exciting for me as low level stuff in a RAF fast jet. (Which was all I wanted when I was a yoof. But I failed the medical.)

My only experience is gliding as a teenage air cadet. Half a dozen 4 minute solos.

EDIT: OK, I've read the thread now, and it seems to me that it's not yet too late. Say I spend the next 2-3 years training, I apply for bush pilot jobs when I'm 54/55, I can have a 10 year career before retiring at 65, that's assuming I can keep passing the medicals.

I have no ties and would love to be based in a developing country. I don't need money, I'm used to not having any! I was affluent and successful in my 20s, been there done that, I'd rather have a bicycle than a flash car.

Maybe a bush airline would like the idea of a 55 year old who wanted to stick with a single engine TP for 10 years rather than a 25 year old who only wants the job for 2 years before going back to Europe to fly a 737?

I suspect the thing that will stop me is failing the medical before I even start training. That's what has always stopped me in the past. I suppose I need to head to another forum to get into the specifics of all that.

[ersa]

Hey Nick H,

Mate your wasting your time and money at 52, my advise is go and get a PPL and just hire aircraft.

32 is now becoming to old for the heavy side of town.

[Nick H.]

Heavy side of town? Wossat? A single engine TP doesn't sound terribly heavy.

[pilotchute]

Nick,

The developing countries you talk about usually have an age 60 cut off for single pilot. Indonesia certainly does. Two years training and if you did manage to snag a job at Susi which is highly unlikely, getting into a Porter will take another three years. That's if you make the cut. Lots of guys want to fly it.

I really don't think you want to spend spend five years in Indonesia. The guys you see on the Channel 4 show are exceptions. Most last two years. Some a little bit more.

[ersa]

Nick H

It doesn't matter what you want to fly, there are guys 18+ year olds your competing with , the 32 age bracket i was trying to highlight ageism in this industry is rife

Ok go and blow your cash and i will tell you i told you so, when you come back to this forum looking for work because your unable to find anything.

Listen to people who have been there all ready .......old dogs new tricks ?

[Nick H.]

Thanks pilotchute, that pretty much knocks it on the head. I may as well go back to dreaming about lottery wins and a Mig 29.

[737wanttobe]

:ugh:

Im 30 years old, been working and travelling for a long time, left school at 16, what are the chances of becoming an airline pilot?


I have all the cash to do training and even get type rated


Could some of you folks please tell me if i'm too late to start, if modular is an ok route to getting a job?

I have the cash but don't really have the education , and i'm already 30!!

What should i do? Please help, any info would be great appreciated
Would it be a waste of money???
Thank you

[shaun ryder]

You will be extremely fortunate to get a job flying as an airline pilot. Its massively competitive and extremely difficult to get in to. Money can't buy everything, it takes huge amounts of dedication and sacrifice to even get in to the position to apply for a job. Buying a type rating won't cut the mustard as you need minimum time on type to apply for jobs. I suggest you read more on these forums before wasting your money.

[Parson]

737wanttobe,

Firstly you are not too old, far from it. Secondly you have the cash which puts you well ahead of many other 30 year olds. If you really want to do it, go for it. Or you might regret not trying. And be prepared to go overseas, initally anyway.

If you can afford it, go integrated at Oxford. Yes, modular gets you the same licence and yes many, many have been successful that way. But if I was in your position, that is what I would do.

As SR says, yes there is competition out there. I started flying 15 years ago just as the old 'self improver' route was coming to an end. Most (not all) I came across going CPL got into some sort of paid flying. Not all have achieved what the wanted and many had to make big sacrifices on the way. Whatever decision you make, enjoy it.

[Panos Gkoumas GR]

Dear Sirs, as many if you do, i have a question.am 34yo greek univercity degree etc. am i too old for ATPL?

[Parson]

Panos,

Have you bothered to read any of the previous posts on this thread?

[jack schidt]

Hello gentlemen.

I have been reading through the thread and I can completely understand the desire you all have to live your dreams and fly for reward. I have been flying for reward for 28 years now and I would like to tell you the following story.

A PPL student in a Warrior sees a Seneca twin taxiing out and thinks to himself, "wow, one day I really want to get onto twins, that's so cool". The Seneca pilot gets to the threshold and prepares for departure when he/she sees a Kingair turbine twin coming in to touchdown and whispers under a quiet breath "that's the life on turbines, I can't wait".

Previously the Kingair pilot who saw the SAAB 340 whos pilot had seen the 737 and all had aspirations about flying the next best thing. The 737 crew had spoken to each other about their desire to fly the widebody 747 they had seen coming into land from a long haul flight after that crew completed a 15hour flight. That previous night, the 747 crew had seen the space shuttle go over (yes you could see it with the naked eye) and said,"now that is the ultimate flying job, wow'!!

The commander and pilot on the shuttle, at the time the 747 crew spotted them, was looking down to earth where the dawn was breaking through a good telescope and saw a PPL student taxiing out in a Warrior. The shuttle pilot said out loud, "one day I really wan to get back to flying because that is real without doubt flying"

I truely belive that the moral of the story is where "real" flying is at. Being in an airliner is not all it is made out to be. The health aspect is not good for you, 16 hours in an aluminium tube at 6500ft cabin altitude and little chance to exercise. You might remember that every time you buy that new car, you are really excited to drive it and yet, after a while the fun wears off. The same thing can happen when you operate an airliner. Note, I say operate because today, airliners are not flown, they are operated as many airlines prefer you to have the autopilot engaged soon after take-off and disconnect just before landing.

I am flying the worlds largest airliner and I am proud of my carrer path. I still have a decade or more of my career ahead of me and many many long night hours bumping through the sky. Doing this job at this age is a real stress on the body.

If you have a desire to fly, then go and fly, do not pay your life savings out to chance getting into an airline to "operate" an aircraft. The halcyon days of aviation and BIG pay-checks were back in the 1970s and 80s. Today, airlines operate at cost and continually try to make cuts in everything (pay included) and always try to work you to the maximum. Flight time limitations by the airlines are targets for them to work you to the maximum and not as a safety regulation.

With little to no experience and due to age, anyone over the age of 30 without an ATPL in tier hand is pretty certain to not have a fruitful and rewarding career in aviation. It is seen in my airline, the older you are the more harder it is for the airline to mould you into what they want. They are after recruiting pilots who will be moulded and become more experienced over a decade or two and make the commanders of the future. CRM is a big issue in airlines today and the younger you are the more easy it is for them to "adapt your personality to their ideal model".

The first officer, right seat, on the ill fated Air France Atlantic crash that pancaked into the ocean was a late starter. Part of the blame, if only a small part was put down to him being a late starter in aviation.

I am certainly not saying that you should not go flying and live your dreams, I am say that you should be realistic. There are many younger pilots who are well qualified and you are up against them in the race to occupy a seat in an airliner. Be wise with your outlook and see it from the recruiters viewpoint. Would you recruit a younger pilot who would give you a Captain of the future or a person who would be very restricted by their age with little chance of becoming a Captain in the airline.

These words are not meant to put people off living your dreams, I only write these words because I truley believe that, if you are much above 30, then you will be rather restricted in your future career and not fulfil your dream. Do not pay for a type rating and waste your life savings getting there to be poorly rewarded thereafter.

Do what you do that makes you a reasonable living and go and do some "real flying for fun". Hitting 40s and especially 50s, the airlines know that you are harder to keep medically certified and you are inexperienced, harder to mould into the ideal stereotype company pilot, all this makes you a less attractive prospective employee.

Good luck in your decisions, I write this with more than 2 decades of airlines experience and this is just an honest opinion from myself. If I were you now, the above is what I would do as sadly, there is age discrimination in the airlines and should you get your ATPL, you would not be financially or self rewarded in a decent job thereafter.

Please do note shoot the messenger, I am trying to be honest and open about the industry today and your chances of making it work.

[pe37]

Hi mr Schidt
Does your advice apply to other pilot jobs, like Bizjets or aerial work?
Thanks

[jack schidt]

Hello,

If you can gain a license and get rewarded for carrying out your hobby, ie flying then good for you. The question is, will the hardwork, investment and future career path available to you, be worth you doing it? Be honest with yourself as it is you who will benefit or lose from your decisions. Do not let your heart bankrupt your bank by investing in this route if you will regret it later.

I am sorry to say that or to be negative in this thread, I wish all of you the joy of flight but I certainly do not wish anyone here go ahead and regret a poor decision in the future. Age is a factor on your employability and with age should come experience. In my airline, some of the "career first officers" are those older FO's who just can't get to grips with the trade as they have become less adaptable to quick learning and change as they have become older. With this fact in mind, many airlines post restrictions on recruiting FO's because of that fact, unless they have a lifetime of experience and are able to cope/adapt. Many FO's around 40+ and who were late starters to the flying career, would normally have at least 5000hrs or so to be able to move into a decent position for reward in the airline business.

Aviation recruiters, no matter which flying field it is are always out to hire the low experienced guys for nothing and selling yourself to be airborne is really not worth it. Keep a good career and fly for fun and enjoy the flying.

Unfortunately in todays "very competitive" world, we all need to hold a position that will reward us finacially and perhaps support a family. I am not familiar with other areas of aviation other than the airlines over the last 2 decades and so I am sorry I am not qualified to comment on other areas of recruitment.

Simply put, for me I would today consider 35 to be the absolute TOP age that I think it would be worthwhile getting into an avaition career today. The prospects of a reasonable salary with a command might take you 10 to 20 years depending on where you go. Looong flights and sleepless nights is the reality. I have just come back off a 14+ hour flight and my definition of fatigue is... you have a good sleep and after you wake up you still feel tired and can't shake that feeling. There are better ways to make a living and enjoy your hobby.

[M-ONGO]

Does your advice apply to other pilot jobs, like Bizjets or aerial work?


Bizjets can be harder to get in to than the airlines. It's not a training ground for would be airbus drivers. Most corporations look for experience, as do insurance companies. There are obviously exceptions.

The advice of the above poster is sound.

[rech]

The non-cadet wannabees and especially the 'late starters' should thing long and hard before throwing all they have at a pilot career. I struggle to think of any other career path where a self funded training of £100k doesn't guarantee a job at the end of it.

At the age of 25 I decided to abandon my day job in industry. Some eighteeen months later I had a CPL, IR, had passed the ATPL and Perf A, but I had no luck in securing even an interview with an airline. After some months, I realised that these qualifications were only a start, and the propect of spending more money to earn almost nothing as an instructor wasn't really an attractive prospect.

Conversely, it was straightforward to go back to an engineering career in mobile comms. I worked another year in England, then nine years in South Africa, Jordan, Lebanon, Czech, Brazil, Sweden before returning to the UK. And being paid >£100k all the while. I flew in all those countries, bar Jordan, often flying myself to jobs. And flying was far less restricted in all those countries, except for Lebanon.

It's now 22 years since that CPL was issued, and the idea of being an airline pilot no longer appeals - unsociable hours, uncertain leave dates, these would all be parts of the job that I can see would not be conducive to good health and harmonious family life. Once kids come along, these things really matter.

Don't misunderstand me, I really enjoyed the flying training. I still love to fly - PA34 and anything single engine, and I know I'm a much more capable pilot now than I was then. The IR renewal still works me harder than anything else I do all year. But airlines are an Operation, where's the Creativity in that? And surely the risk of failing the medical rises with age, what would one's options be if the Class 1 was lost?

In summary, with age, my business head understands that ultimately one should invest energy into the career where one can make most returns. The head should overrule the heart. It's insane to believe that spending £100k on training will automatically lead to a well paid airline job. The mere fact that this situation exists should tell you that the market is oversupplied with applicants.

To all those more mature people that are considering a career change, concentrate on what you are best at. Ulimately any job can be tedious, so don't waste time and effort trying to jump ship.

Oh, has anyone analysed divorce statistics for pilots? Surely it's higher than the general population? Is that a price worth paying?

Sorry if this comes over as a rant. I just want to advise any one to think long and hard before jeopardising their family, or remortgaging their house.

[SAW77]

Hello,

ok so I don't want to turn this post into a 'Am I to old to become a pilot' post ! As you can see from my profile I've just turned 37. Like most on here I read all on the net about the age limit to become a pilot, you read 'your way to old to start in your 30's or 40's then you read the 'I know a few F/O's who started to train in their 40's !'

I've been thinking about doing my PPL and a career change for a few years but for one reason or another the PPL hasn't happened until a few months ago although I'd done the odd trial lesson before. I'm currently doing my PPL with a local school and I really enjoy it, my current job is well paid and pretty secure with a trade behind me but again like most it's not what I want to be doing for another 20-25 years. As I'm doing my PPL in my spare time and funded by myself I'll hope to complete it before I'm 38 !

My question is once I've completed the PPL what or where can I realistically get or do in an aviation job at my age ? Obviously I know I'll have to do more training on what I do but I'm a bit confused on where I can get and if I should do it or just treat it as a hobby but then I'd still be looking to change my career !

Thank you.

[fwjc]

While it is possible to get work at this age, it's very difficult to get work that allows you to maintain a normal lifestyle without selling your house, because maintaining a mortgage in one part of the country while renting in another part of the country on pay of between £20-24,000 isn't possible.
I speak from experience, having got my first commercial flying job at 39. I am now in a position where I have to decide whether to sell my house or leave commercial aviation to go back to my previous career. The pay there wasn't fantastic, but it did allow me to live at home and it did cover my living costs.

[Mrboeing]

I'll be around 23 by the time I graduate from university. Assuming that, no matter what anyone says about the industry, I still have the passion to become a pilot, would I be too old?

I honestly think I'm one of those people who will always have the flying bug...

EDIT: I am also assuming that I will have the funds to start training. Since I probably won't have any money, I doubt I will pursue flying as a career. But this is just a hypothetical question.

[Twotter_pilot]

Hell no. I know some pilots who started in their late 30's and some in their 40's. Follow the dream dude, and don't let anyone stop you or tell you differently. I'll be brutally honest though. It is a tough industry to break into. But with hard work, integrity, persistence and a positive attitude you'll make it. Just don't give up. Where do you plan on doing your flying?

[Mrboeing]

That's great news, Twotter pilot.

Where do I plan on doing my flying? Well, I know for sure that I will do my PPL in Toronto, or in the GTA. After that, I think I'll still do it in Toronto, if I don't move.

When I finish training, who knows where my career will take me?

[Twotter_pilot]

I'm from the GTA as well. I'm living in the dominican now. You may want to plan on moving up north to Timmins or Thunder Bay, or some place in butt**** nowhere. As soon as you finish you cpl sit your IATRA exam right away.

Unlike my friends I haven't had the easiest journey in this industry. There was a period between 2007 and 2013 where I didn't have a job within the industry. Buuuuut, on a positive note I started my own business in construction and renovation which made me a lot of money and a lot of new contacts and I learned a a lot about business management without having to go to school for it. Before all this stuff happened I had a flying gig in Australia in which I started out in a skydiving company making no money. I got a license to pack parachutes and I made 10 bucks a chute. It was enough to pay for food. I lived at the drop zone for free in a small single room. I met my future wife while working at the drop zone and about 6 months later I got an offer doing aerial photography. I actually got paid for that and made about 500 bucks a week and the company paid for my accommodation while on travel. It was a cool job. Flying across Australia with the door off at 500 ft in a piper Cherokee. About a yr and a half after arriving in Australia it was over. Moved back to Toronto got married and then the recession hit. I was royally screwed and that's when the business started. And in November of 2013 I was offered a job from my native birthplace... A small island in the Indian ocean which I hadn't been back to since I left at the age of 5. It was a sweet gig island hopping in a Twin otter but surviving wasn't so sweet. Making a whopping 500 bucks a month wasn't cutting it especially with a wife and 2 small kids. Well that lasted almost 2 yrs. now with some great contacts I've made over the years and some twin turbine and multi-crew experience it has helped me land this job in the Dominican republic on a319. So, like I said before, it's not easy, but keep the dream alive and just go for it. Don't give up. I had almost 5 years of rejection. When I left the Australia job I had 500 hrs of single piston time. Now Im just under 2000 hrs in a short time.

[aaron5150]

Hi all

I am a low hour PPL holder for 5 years. Being disgruntled in my current career as a public servant for several years I have been considering doing what I always wanted to do, but never being fortunate enough to come from a well off family to do it.

Now at 28 (not far off 29) having made my own way with a mortgage, it may well be possible for me to complete the training up to a frozen ATPL over to next 24-36 months by the modular route.

Will I be too old at 31-32 in reality to get a look in with any airline? This will take a considerable amount of time and money to do as we all know. I just don't want to go ahead, where at the end of it all, I'll only be able to get a low paid flying instructors job.

I am aware FO jobs to start don't pay too handsomely. I have a business on the side at the moment growing which I hope would take care of the shortfall by then.

Advice is much appreciate from anyone who knows about the airline industry how it is now and where it is going in the future.

[turbopropulsion]

You're unlikely to get the answer you're looking for. I'd suggest reading the sticky on "Am I too old".

[brazeagle]

Guys,
I am a 1600 hour pilot, FAA commercial multi engine IFR, who never flown commercially.

I am 47 years old (09-09-1967), specialized in Aviation Safety, currently working for an Organization, where I am responsible for Aircraft Accident Investigation, Aviation Risk Management and Aviation Safety Assessment of operators (contractors), military (contracted States) on all aviation activities.

I hold a Bachelors Degree in Aviation Science, Master in Organizational Leadership and a bachelor in Computer Science. Have done 5 years of studies in Aviation Safety with the University of Southern California besides the above education (i.e SMS, Accident Investigation, Human Factors, etc.)

NOW...I want to fulfill a dream, become a commercial pilot at this stage of life and want to know WHERE TO INVEST...
AIRBUS 320 or Boeing 737?

Please help with your professional experience, which market I may be able to fit in faster! IF EVER POSSIBLE DUE TO MY AGE.

[CrewReport]

brazeagle,

I hear you...but think carefully before you decide. Your qualifications and current position sound impressive. You mentioned being "responsible for" various functions. Just be aware that if you join an airline at this stage, the limit of your responsibility will be reporting for duty every day and doing whatever the Captain wants you to do. That's difficult if you're middle aged.

[magicmick]

Take a look at the video below:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJk9Skxyi84

It's all about succeeding as a pilot in the US but it's honest and a lot of its content rings true across other continents.

If you want to go ahead and train commercially, it's a huge gamble and as with any other gamble you should never bet what you can't afford to lose so please do not get tied up to your eyeballs in debt especially if you have to use your (or someone else's) property as security.

If you can train part time while keeping a stable income from a job or business venture then do so.

If you decide to quit your current career and train full time then don't slam the door on the way out, if you cannot find well paid flying employment after training you may well need to go back to your old line of work to keep cash coming in while you hunt for a flying job.

If you have a long term partner, spouse and or kids make sure that they are provided for and that you have their support to embark on training.

Good Luck and Happy New Year

[Gentle Climb]

At 33 it is possible to make it but it is tough. Really tough. By the time you are employable to will be a couple of years older and despite what is said it is borderline as to whether or not the principal employers of low hours pilots would look at you. There is always the exception but they are few and far between from 35 onwards. I was actually a little older and it took me nearly 4 years to find a position...and I was lucky! There were many periods during that time that I wished I hadn't 'wasted the time,effort and money' and it isn't a happy place to be. The skills you gain aren't really transferable to other occupations either.
That said...it is a great job, it has it's ups and its downs but all jobs have that. Just make sure that you know what you are getting in to and what you stand to lose.

[Parson]

The older you are, the more realistic you have be (and that doesn't just apply to aviation). If you want to do it and can afford to 'write off' the investment in time and money, then why not - you only live once, and all that.

Also, as you get you older, you become more philosophical and understand what is possible and what isn't. One thing I don't buy into is age making it more difficult to re-train and learn new skills etc. Yes, there is a bit of truth in that but I've got an engineering background where you effectively retrain your whole career learning new techniques, software and more. It's more to do with the individual than any arbitrary age.

[Calilysum]

I am full of my spirits when i read this post. I have started my path. Actually, i don't know my goal will success or not. But i HAVE TO TRY. Thanks for your posting.

[Citationcj2]

A guy that used fly in my local flying club just got his first job in Ryanair at age of 38.
Only finished his course in October last year, and managed to get in in December 14.

Not a bad going lads, so who says you are too old!

[Sameer Aryan]

Dear All,

First of all I would like to greet and thank everyone here who is reading this thread. I am here to seek some advice from you people because I am standing at edge of one biggest life changing question in my life ever. Your advice and guidance will not only help me to take this vital decision but also will change my whole life.

About myself, I am 32 yrs old. I have done Masters in business from Kingston University. I am currently working full time with gud salary. But deep down I am not very happy with job I am doing. I always wanted to learn flying and be a commercial pilot. But due to family responsibilities i was not able to do it. But now I have reached a point were I have the freedom to think about my own dreams. First of all the question is Am I too old now to think of doing this complete career change??

I have done some research about ATPL studies and am aware of the cost and training involved. But to reduce the cost I am thinking of going to India and do the studies as its my home country and will be lot easier and cheaper for me. There are few good colleges in India and cost would be some where near 30000 pounds for 18 months training. I am thinking of starting my PPL here in UK.

My real worries are:

1) Am I too old for this now?

2) What if cant finished the whole studies?

3) In one of seminar I attended by BA and CTC, the guest speaker said " Not everyone can be a pilot. Its not the career for everyone". What does he really mean by this?

4)If I have ATPL from non European country will I still be able to get any job here in UK?

Please advice me on this issues. Do you think going to India for studies would be a right move? Keep in mind I will have to leave my current job.

Your help and advice would be much appreciated and I will be really thankful for your time and advice.

Many thanks

[IO540driver]

For those that list all their credentials, changing careers, I am too old etc. Answer these questions to know if its really the right thing.

Can you pass a medical/Healthy?

Do you think about flying all the time?

Do you have a lot of money to spend/Financially secure?

Are you always reading about flying?

Prepared to spend lots of hours training/studying?

Are you always talking about flying?

Prepared to go anywhere on the planet to fly/most remote uninhabited places?

Watch every video can get hands on that has to do with aviation.

Leave loved ones behind for days, weeks maybe months or years?

Read Flying mags in the loo.

Live out of a bag/suitcase/hotels?

Always look up when hear a plane.


Answer No to any of the questions then seriously rethink about investing in an aviation career. Answer Yes to all then congratulations you are not too old and welcome to the aviators club/fraternity of those that love to fly!

[fwjc]

Sameer

1) 32 is not too old, although your options and opportunities are more limited than if you were 22. You need to be realistic about this.

2) If you can't finish your studies, you will not gain a licence. You should have a contingency plan for this - never close the door entirely on your former career, and always have exit options.

3) Not everyone can be a pilot. For the same reasons that not everyone can be a doctor, or a lawyer. They might not have the academic ability, or the physical ability, or the aptitude, or the financial back-up, or the flexibility to manage ridiculous shifts, or a family that can accept the lifestyle that being a pilot brings. Add into this the medical requirements, the 6 monthly line checks, the incredibly high standards required and the personal / soft / communication skills required to share a cockpit with someone for up to 12 hours at a time.

4) No

[Harleyrider]

Hi all,


First post here, I am a 37 year old married man who has always wanted to become a professional pilot. I am finally in a position where I can make this happen. My intention is to complete an integrated program in as short a timeframe as possible and have come across one company in Spain offering a zero - fATPL in nine months. Can anybody please advise if this is a practical timeframe or even better if anybody has actually completed their training in this period of time. I understand all the pitfalls regarding getting a job at my age etc etc, however I have noticed that certain airlines prefer more mature candidates so I am willing to give it a try. I really just want to know if this short timeframe is practicable with the correct amount of study and determination.
Thanks to all in advance.

[Dogfactory]

Sure you can do it in 9 months, if you can live at the school every day, and do your regular 2 hours of flying per day. Some people are so lucky they got the money and also spare the time to do it. Do you feel lucky? :cool:

[Harleyrider]

Hi,

In response to dog factory, firstly thank you for responding to my mail and to answer your question about feeling lucky, I suppose I do, however not as lucky as I would have felt 15 years ago if I had been in a position to follow my chosen career then. I was 22 when I completed my PPL and due to marriage, children etc I had to pursue alternative methods of providing for the above. Now after working long hours and being away from home for months at a time over the last 15 years I can finally reach my goal, so yes I feel lucky, however this luck came about from lots of hard work and a dedication to reach my ambition. Sometimes you need to make your own luck!

[skyship007]

Hi chaps,
I've booked my FAA class one medical for a few weeks time (Not much chance of passing, as I am a well known lunatic). I'm pushing 60 and although I have a total of around 9000 hours I only hold an FAA CPL (Airships) that is current.
I still have vague hazy dreams that I used to be a flying instructor in the UK for the Oxford Air Training School (CSE Aviation), who seem to have sunk with all hands. In order to get me to leave them they insisted on giving me an SCPL(Senior Commercial Persons License?)/ IR and multi QFI rating. I think I've got around 2000 hours of fixed, glued or bolted wing time.

The problem is that a good old friend of mine is flying some big job (It does not carry passengers apart from the odd stowaway) and has invited me to fly as the P3 (No type rating required), cos the flights are often over 10 hours and my duties will include kicking the type rated co-pilot awake every time an alarm goes off and making the tea.

BUT, the powers that be on the other side of the pond (Probably the insurance company) have insisted that I must hold an FAA ATP (Aerial trained person) and current instrument rating.

I did call up some chap in an Orlando training school, but he started laughing and hung up!

Anyone know the exact requirements, other than finding an instructor (Some new fangled special course according to one advert) with a sense of humor.

[truckflyer]

(For Harleyrider)
The true is that getting a job with your age and minimum hours is very hard! So if you are willing to invest close to 150.000 Euros in this dream, then you can try, but do not expect that you will get a job!

Getting a job will be a bonus, and you will be very lucky! I am not saying it is impossible, but this is what you should know before you start, and not some people telling you stories you want to hear to convince yourself it is the right thing for you to do in your life!

It is a big step, I would say unless you can get integrated that gives you a job after, then do it step by step with your current job! Unless you are so rich that you don't care about money, and this is not an issue, than just go for it!

Modular will save you much money, and you will not loose income from regular or part time job during this period, so your losses will be less if it does not work out.

Also what do you expect to make in money when you become a pilot? Know the details and good luck!

[Harleyrider]

Hi Truckflyer,


Thank you for your response, I agree with your comments and I am aware that it will be extremely difficult to find a job afterwards, however I do not want to be in a position in twenty years time saying "what if". I don't have 150,000 euro to spend and I am certainly not so rich that money doesn't matter. I am in a position where I can take a year out and complete the ATPL course which I will hopefully follow with a type rating and an FI rating. Hopefully I will be able to pick up some instructor hours and if not then I should be able to return to my current career while searching for a flying job.


My current thoughts are to complete my training in Spain up to fATPL with FIS which is a nine month program can anybody who has completed this program give some advice on the school and job possibilities afterwards please.


I would also like to hear comments both negative and positive on my path to achieving a flying job.


Thanks in advance.

[macflea]

to harleyflyer,

okay so you have you frozen atpl book in your hand , its not that difficult to pass despite what they say , you will get it .

but the problem is what next ?

aer lingus :extremely difficult to get in there , best either as a cadet or having gained experience at another airline , either aer arann or ryanair .

aer arann : pay 17000 euros for a type rating in the hope they will like you . its a gamble . can you afford to live on that salary as a married man of 37 with a house , kids and wife. see ppjn

cityjet : they were running a cadet scheme years ago. again do they like cadet or ex aer corp ?

air contractors: again they seem to like experiance guys or thats what i have been told .

ryanair : 30000 euros for a type rating and can be based any where in europe. also age issue possibly here ,well rumored, what do you think the wife and kids will think?

instructor : probably better off renting a plane and doing you own thing if you are over 35 .

when i say experianced guys i mean guys with over 3000 hours jet time etc and not us older guys in our late thirties with a few hundred hours

its a totally different story if you are living in the uk , i believe there are more opportunities there than here in ireland. your choices are very limited here in ireland if that is where you wish to stay .

can you honestly see the wife and kids moving abroad with you ? pulling them out out of school . her leaving family and friends , starting afresh in uk or in eastern europe . and you working all hours of the day and spending little time with them. or another option they stay in ireland , but you are working 5 on 2 off and commuting back from eastern europe.

i myself been 39 and married with kids with about 400 hours . there are hundreds of guys like in the same situation . all the guys that i did the mcc course here in ireland with none of us have jobs .

all you have to do is go on linkedin and see all these guys over 30 trying to get jobs after a career change .

also its very interesting as you can see all the 20 years olds who have posted on linkedin that they are now pilots for airlines who supposely want experianced pilots only but yet they they have managed to get in to those airlines , despite very little qualifications !!

all this is from any IRISH point of view .

cheers

[Harleyrider]

Hi Macflea,


Firstly thank you for taking the time to send such a detailed response. It is good to hear comments from somebody who has actually been through the system and can offer first hand information.


In relation to the position after training, I had ruled out Aer Lingus as I don't envisage much chance of securing a position there, from reading previous posts, I notice Ryan Air do hire mature FO's so hopefully there is a potential position with them.


I am currently living away from home and have been for a number of years so getting home each weekend would be an advantage over my current rotation.


It is extremely disheartening to see that none of the guys you have completed the MCC course with are currently employed and your mail is certainly a wake up call, on the other hand if I don't try now, I am not getting any younger and I don't want to look back in ten years time saying "what if"


Thank you again for taking the time to respond. I have also sent you a PM if you wouldn't mind me asking some questions offline.

[truckflyer]

Macflea makes many valid points, I would like to correct him one point, there are not hundreds of pilots in his situation (400 hours etc), there are thousands!

I do urge you understand what I wrote, to have a chance you will be looking to be able to spend close to 150.000 Euros in all, and that is the total if some airline offers you a job, where you will have to pay for your own type-rating! Reduce it by around 30.000 Euros, if you never get offer this job chance!

Do not base your luck on Ryanair, they have so many applications, the odds of even getting an interview at your age is remote! Yes they do take few older guys in between to be politically correct, however that is rather the exception than the rule!

I know guys with 1000 - 1500 hours on B737/A320 struggling to get good jobs, you got to ask yourself if you are willing to take the risk, as the financial cost will be considerable high.

I know this from own experience, yes I was lucky, but that is rather the exception than the rule!

Are you and your family able to take the financial hit of the investment? And secondly are you willing to slave for 1200 - 2500 Euros a month?

Is that enough for your and your family to live on? You never being able to be home when you want! When I say never, I mean NEVER! Without exception, there is nobody who cares about your personal reasons, as there another xxx thousands of pilots in the same situation as you!

[class2ldn]

Hi all, I'm currently a train driver in central London and as good as it is can't get the thought of becoming a pilot out my head. I'm 32 next month so I know it's leaving it a bit late (been reading the age threads) but I understand it's entirely possible with the right motivation and funds.
I'd be looking at doing a modular route as I'm earning good money at the moment and don't want to give it up for an integrated course and the risk that comes with that.
Problem for me is im currently saving for a house and although my partner is very supportive, she'd go mad if I spent the money on pilot training lol.
I'm in sussex right next to gatwick so going to try and get a taster flight at redhill soon.
I reckon I'd be in a position for a house in around 1-2 years so after that could really fast forward saving for a pilot course as my outgoings are not too much.
From an academic point of view I don't really have much to my name so I know that could be a battle in itself.
Do you think it's doable? I don't want to rush the training so financially it would be more secure but if I was to start at around 35 do you think I'd have a decent chance with getting into an airline with some sort of decent wage (30k +). Currently earning a fair whack more then that but money isn't a big decider, would just like to be in a stable position.
Any advice would be very much welcome, good or bad.
Ito something I'd really love to do but I'm also fairly sensible so don't want to kid myself.
Many thanks

[Ilyushin76]

Sameer. As a fellow South Asian let me answer your queries, keeping into account my experience.

1) Am I too old for this now? No. You are not. The smart thing to do is to accelerate your license training and bring it down to 1 year (just to save on additional time, considering you might have to pursue an instructor rating to build time - I am not aware of the airline hiring policies in India :))

The retirement age is 65 these days. So you will have at least 30 years to fly (that is a long time to fly sir ! )


2) What if cant finished the whole studies? Studies are not an issue. It takes some discipline and a bit of dedication. They are quite do-able for someone who has been to college.


3) In one of seminar I attended by BA and CTC, the guest speaker said " Not everyone can be a pilot. Its not the career for everyone". What does he really mean by this?

In my opinion what he means by this is that you will not get an airline job immediately. You might have to go around, build time at meager pays (sometimes no pay at all) and be based at places that are tough to live in. Not everyone is built to heck it. Airline placement exams and interviews can disappoint even the brightest of candidates. Pay to fly programs have added to the crux. You just have to stay focused and work towards achieving your goal. Long haul flights will keep you away from your family and that can be quite a problem for some people. You are usually not available when the family needs you.


4)If I have ATPL from non European country will I still be able to get any job here in UK? It depends on multiple factors, namely your country of citizenship (non EU guys usually have difficulties in getting jobs due to permit and residency issues) as well as the total time you build after getting your license. Pay to fly programs are quite the norm these days so you have to do your research. :rolleyes:



I think what you could do is fly part time in the UK and keep your job as well. I am not discouraging you from flying but please keep into account that this field will test your limits. And the people who hail eventually reach their goals. However what I do suggest is that the low cost aviation sector in India is on the boom these days. Why don't you go around and talk to the companies there and see what their hiring requirements are? They offer good flight time and the pays are decent as well.

[SIMEFLY]

im considering or rather contemplating on a Frozen ATPL course!Firstly which flight schools in the UK are highly rated and secondly would airlines look at Employing someone like me as a First Officer??

[truckflyer]

SIMEFLY, do you have any GA experience?

If none, I would say you have no chance, even if you had, you would need to spend another 2 - 3 years to get your ratings. Are you willing to risk £100.000 for 1% chance to get a job, where you will be paid £1500 - £2000 a month?

This is the brutal and honest truth!

[NasGR]

Hi all,
I'm a 34yr old looking for a career change.
I hold a telecommunications engineer degree but not willing to pursue any more employment time in the industry.

Have been thinking about it for a couple of years but the cost kept me back. Finally I have saved enough to take a more thorough second look.


I'm based in Greece but looking for a school abroad, Europe or maybe Canada.
No family restrictions &such.

Are there any suggestions of respectable schools who welcome older candidates?

[Northwest]

Fascinating reading!

I'm early thirties, fairly good salary and benefits. Not in any way passionate about my career but have stuck it out to get a bit of a start in life. My big decision is what next? For financial reasons, being a pilot wasn't open to me until now so I stayed well clear. Now after much deliberation and a few lessons I feel like it is what I need to be doing. I'm considering committing in full to ppl but as I'm not getting any younger then don't know whether to do it leisurely and with an open mind as to potential prospects or flat out in 6 weeks and take it from there. Also don't know whether to go all in in pursuit of the airline dream - my ambition would be a regional in UK, flying the islands. My dilemma is that ppl seems expensive just to maintain and so if flying is not to be my career then I'm not sure I could afford it as a very regular hobby.

Getting impartial advice is v.difficult - I don't trust any of the FTAs. I also hear mixed views from current pilots, but this is similar to views within my own profession (and ditto medicine etc too). I once went to Vegas and didn't play a single table, so clearly my risk appetite is off the scale low; but this life changing decision has more of an emotional pull and I'm really on the fence... if you want it enough you can pull it off, right?

[truckflyer]

First step would be to read a few posts on this forum.

You can not limit yourself to just working in the UK in the start, unless you get in on one of those cadet-schemes.

[Mikehotel152]

I changed career into flying aged 30 in early 2007. The pre-recession world - and airline industry in particular - was a different kettle of fish back then. Even then I hesitated, reluctant to give up my successful, if unfulfilling, career for a dream. I only proceeded because:-

- The study didn't scare me as I've never struggled academically
- I could afford the training without going into significant debt
- My wife could afford to pay all the bills indefinitely if I failed to get a job
- I did not have any children
- Job prospects were reasonable
- There was no recruitment bias against those aged 30+

Can you tick all of the above in 2015? The industry is very different now. It has consolidated. Many airlines have disappeared. Many routes into the industry in Europe are now hopelessly truncated, if not doomed as career cul-de-sacs. Even the jobs in growth areas, such as with the low cost operators, are offering terms and conditions that would make the most desperate dreamer hesitate.

I would caution against anyone considering risking their family's livelihood on a dream. Only pursue it if you have little to lose.

[SeaMac]

Today I became enlightened and might at 51 be able to fulfill my aviation dream. The dream had to be adjusted to accommodate reality though, but the crux of the dream remains intact. After speaking with a helicopter flight school owner I was informed that most students who achieve CFI rating only stick around and teach long enough to accumulate enough hours to be hired by a real company, I knew this but what I didn't know, schools -around here at least- seem to prefer a more mature and permanent in-house instructor. The feedback from prospective students is, they feel more comfortable with an older instructor rather than one as young if not younger, it is human psychology at its basics but very true. My age and gray hair are finally paying a dividend, who knew!?!

I was also advised to obtain my FAA Basic Ground Instructors Certificate which I fully intend to do. My reality is knowing I'll likely never sit in the right seat of a twin flying IFR or perhaps even a turbine for that matter and I'm fine with that. I am currently semi-retired and will soon be getting paid to do something I've dreamed about since 1968. I'm even seriously considering going back to school having just applied to Embry Riddle for an online Associates Degree in Aviation Management. I figure, if I'm going to do this I might as well go all in.

The cool thing about the flight school I'll be attending is they will soon have a brand new Cabri G2 in their fleet and I will gladly wait for its arrival before I begin flight training. I have been a huge fan of the G2 and I'm very pleased Guimbal finally received FAA certification this year. So, for those that think it can't be done after you get "old" think again. You may have to modify your plans and goals to accommodate your own reality but anything can be accomplished if you set your mind to it. Good luck!!! :ok:

[254HEAVY]

Well spoken SeaMac. Wish you all the best and enjoy every moment of your training.

[SeaMac]

@254HEAVY,

Thank you... :ok:

[BJTW]

I couldn't have put it better myself and I'm sure the moral of the story is "listen to yourself and DONT LISTEN TO THOSE WHO SAY YOU CANT DO THAT"

[Prophead]

I think there is one thing missing from a lot of these posts and that is how much do you want to fly for fun?

I know this is a job forum so the question was aimed at achieving a paid pilot position but I do believe it has a bearing on the decision and whether it is viable or not.

A lot of the older guys have decent careers but want to fly for a living instead. That's good but what kind of flying are you doing now? If you don't even have a PPL and are contemplating going integrated then I would question whether it is a good decision. If you want to fly and have the means then why haven't you done a PPL at least?

For the guys that are regularly flying for fun and doing something else for a living I would say go for it. As long as you do a CPL/IR and not an MPL you will have an IR which will make you pleasure flying more enjoyable and allow you to do more. The CPL is not really much more in the grand scheme of things, will make you a better pilot and may come in useful to pick up some part time work that may come along.

Not every job you will see advertised there are others that go under the radar and come about through being in the right place and having you face known at the local flying club.

To sum up, if you only dream of flying an airliner and have no PPL at least by your late thirties then I would question your own desire to fly. If you have a PPL and can afford to do the CPL/IR then go for it and use it even if there is never a paycheck at the end of it.

[dusty crop]

Went in for my medical lately..omg..still in shock..
All young guys and some with their mums ..a few had new frozen atpl s with ryanair interviews soon..
Dear me ..i dont envy those training captains as no amount of high ninety per cent exam results or aptitude tests can give you life experience that only time can..
The same goes for crm etc..
When you go flying you cannot have a bad day..you leave relationship,mortgage problems at home..
When i was in my early twenties i was an idiot ..maybe still a little !!
Maturity and life experience are great assets sadly all ignored now by modern hr recruitment in airlines...
As for mpl pilots ..no sim can recreate the fear in you tummy when u mess up and thats how you learn and you dont forget..
Sadly its integrated ctc etc cadets mpl twenty year olds..
Hope it does nt end in tears

[Bealzebub]

Well, speaking as someone who has flown with hundreds of new cadets over the last two decades, I can tell you that the level of ab-initio CRM training is very high, and despite the very steep learning curve, few cadets struggle to make the grade. Maturity isn't ignored and "life experience" is one of those abstracts often trotted out by those who have little else to offer. Perhaps some of that "life experience" could have been utilised learning better spelling and basic communication skills. The former is very important in application, and the latter is an integral ingredient in virtually all CRM profile training these days.

[mockingjay]

For those of you over 30 with a wife and kids, I'd say you would have to be off your tree to plough 100,000 in to training, with no job lined up. I was almost 30 when I finally got a job after four years of job hunting. I'm not single but commute within the same country I live in.

If anyone thinks that they can commute to Eastern Europe on a 5-2 pattern then you're living in a fantasy world. You will likely finish on a late and start back on an early. So you finish at 2300 on day 5, you sleep, you then drag yourself out of bed at 0500 ready for the flight out. You'll finally get home about lunch time local. Then 24 hours later, you'll do the same in reverse ready to get back to base ready for that 0600 checking 11 hour four sector day!

If you think you can do this then you must be on crack. Even the rosiest of rose tinted specs can't make this one look. And no partner or kids are going to be happy moving to Godknowswhereovich.

Believe me, I do it, it's not worth it. The job can be fun, but it's very mundane and with most jobs you spend the time wishing for the day to end!

I'd much rather be 100,00-150,000 better off in years to come thinking 'thank god' and not 'what if'. Think long and hard boys. It's not like the glossy brochures or the 'living the dream' brigade you see on social media.

Few more things. It took me two years just get some summer leave and now looking forward to my first Christmas at home for three years!

In busy summers you'll go three weeks without going home. Your days off become recovery days and the last thing you want to do is spend hours commuting home. Don't expect your partner to come visit you either as you can put money on your days off being a Tuesday or Wednesday which of they're a 9-5 simply won't work. And it doesn't get better any time soon.

Think long and hard guys and gals. Don't risk your home or your mortgage for this. It's just a job and nothing more.

[dusty crop]

Bealzebub.

Point taken about spelling however i did not realise we had to use spell check here or be word perfect my apologies.
I also agree with you that the training and crm is indeed a very high standard however i know of two cadets recently failing type rating exams and we all know of pilots not making it through line training.It does happen and quite rightly so and it is not often discussed on pprune.

Having read SOME of your posts here you remind me of my old mentor and training captain who we used to call victor meldrew from the comedy show one foot in the grave but who i actually quite respected.
This thread is related to age and starting training and such issues as life experience are bound to be discussed and your opinion that people with life experience have nothing else to offer is very much misguided .One of the major attributes of life experience is ability to cope in stressfull situations.
It is worth noting that the iata recomendations state that the thirty to fifty age bracket has statistically been proven to be the most productive age bracket in terms of learning ability etc.
Perhaps you would like to give us your educated opinion on airlines who take on people for type ratings and make considerable profits on those said type ratings and put people in hold pools for years maybe at a time also your opinion on mpl licences instead of nit picking but that is going off thread.
Apologies to all for typos or spelling errors.

[magicmick]

At the risk of exposing my spelling and grammar, life experience is a very subjective phenomenon and does not necessarily go with age.

No doubt there are plenty of people in their 30s/ 40s who live with their parents and sit indoors all night playing online games.

Equally there will be people in their teens/ 20s who will have spent time in cadet forces, completed their DofE awards and volunteer within their community.

Life experience can only be quantified on a case by case basis and should not be generalised. I can only hope that recruitment professionals understand this.

[Bealzebub]

dusty crop

The general demographic with cadets is that the majority tend to be in their mid twenties. The remainder tend to be weighted more in their early twenties with a few late teens, and some in their thirties. The older cadets often have stronger financial platforms. For example, they will often have used a previous career to finance (wholly or in part) their ab-initio training regime.

In my experience, cadets from the higher age group progress at very much the same pace as the younger ones. There seems to be little discernable difference. A comment that is frequently proffered by the older cadets themselves, is that they felt their younger classmates had the advantage of more recent school/university/education experience, which was something they themselves had to re-adjust to. That is their perception, it doesn't seem to make any difference to their real world progression.

As for "stressful situations" the idea that younger cadets present deficiencies in this area is frankly nonsense. As for "life experience" the general conversations I have with pilots from any age group are equally interesting based on their individual "life experience" and it really doesn't correlate to their flying or management ability for any given point along the general learning curve.

Those airlines with cadet programmes are looking for individuals who will be able to progress rapidly up a very steep learning curve. They will display maturity and common sense, and they will become productive in a timely and cost efficient way to the commercial enterprise. The companies do not expect, want, or notably experience, cadets failing. Their selection, ab-initio training, and advanced training is all designed to minimize those risks. It is a regimen that has existed for over 50 years now, and has expanded markedly in the last two decades.

I am afraid the term "life experience" tends to be a bit of a "red flag." It is intentionally non-specific and means whatever you want it to mean. If a company is looking for particular attributes (and they always are) it would expect them to shine through and be highlighted from the "life experience". It is rather like the people who state they have an ICAO pilots licence. It means nothing (they are nearly all ICAO state issued licences.) It is used to mask the fact, that it isn't necessarily the specific one that a company requires.

By the time a twenty year old, or a thirty year old reaches the flight deck, their ability to cope with the relevant stressors will have been tested and assessed many times. The "fear" and stress of going in the simulator in a jeopardy testing scenario is an everyday event. I can assure you that some perfectly capable "life experienced" pilots start to dissolve at the prospect. Something they would never do on the line.

The point of replying here, is to offer the benefit of experience. There are plenty of people with opinions some of which are based on the way they wish the world was, rather than the way it actually is. I am not concerned whether anybody wishes to ignore the comment, challenge it, or use it as part of their personal tool kit.

As for "spelling and grammar" on an international bulletin board I doubt there is a high expectation, although a lot of people clearly make a lot of effort. The theme of the site "professional pilots" involves clear communication at it's core. There is a great deal of mature comment on these threads and often from people for whom English isn't their first language. It is difficult to support the idea that someone is advocating their maturity/life experience when an entire post is full of emoticons, text speak, and punctuation substituting for gaps between words.

i wonder if u would nt agree......with,that,suggestion....LOL :}:*:*:ok:

Perhaps you would like to give us your educated opinion on airlines who take on people for type ratings and make considerable profits on those said type ratings and put people in hold pools for years maybe at a time also your opinion on mpl licences instead of nit picking but that is going off thread

Yes, it is off topic, and I have made many hundreds of posts on the subjects of training and licensing, most of them providing some factual historical background to the evolution involved in those subjects. They are all there to read if you really want to.

[dusty crop]

Beazelbub.
I agree with nearly all of your last post unfortunatly every week i land on a runway in ork where i and quite a lot of pilots i know feel that youth and the type of "stressfull situations" that you dismiss had a contributing factor in a serious accident.
I feel it there in foggy conditions however that is only my humble opinion and i emphasise the contributing factor aspect.

[Bealzebub]

Ok. Firstly I don't "dismiss" stressful situations. The point I was making was that the age of cadets is fairly irrelevant in how they are handled. Almost every working day (for the last 38 years) I have landed on a runway where somebody or other had an accident. Age is rarely a factor in those accidents. Poor training, poor CRM, and poor monitoring, often are though.

It is the application of better and more relevant competency based training, as well as continuous improvements in selection and monitoring that reduces the incidences of accidents and serious incidents. The idea that "life experience" rather than "relevant experience and training" is a suitable substitute, is simply wishful thinking I am afraid.

I am always impressed by the standards of pilots who have successfully graduated through the cadet process. It is a very steep learning curve. The standards expected are high, consistent, and demanding. Training pilots expect to see a high degree of application and commitment from those cadets. If they don't, then it is unlikely the cadet would have presented to an airline in the first place, and even if that were not the case, it is very unlikely they would progress much further. That is where the focus lies. It is of precious little interest to those training staff how many years somebody spent in I.T, or in the Police force, or how many divorces they have under their belt if those primary issues are not being met. It is probably of precious little interest even when they are!

To reiterate the point, it is about good quality training and learning in the specific competencies required for the role. It has to be! A twenty year old cadet will have whatever "life experience" they acquire 10 years later, just as a 30 year old cadet may have now. However, it is simply not relevant and nor does it substitute for the required competencies.

[dusty crop]

Six people were killed in that accident i mention regretablly and both pilots had all training etc.
However without going off topic can i ask you beazelbub what in your opinion is "too old " to start training or apply as a cadet?
I am aware it is like asking how long is a piece of string but do you think airlines or even turboprop operators have age restrictions keeping in mind eu law states age discrimination is illegal.
Thankyou

[Bealzebub]

However without going off topic can i ask you beazelbub what in your opinion is "too old " to start training or apply as a cadet?
I don't know. It must be subjective, and to that end there would be a very high number of possible and valid answers.

In reality, the main criteria would be economic ones. Could an individual (who had to,) recoup their likely investment over a potential return period. Does an individual feel that their ability is likely to keep pace with the steep and competitive learning curve required. Would the individuals requirements provide a fair and reasonable return to the potential employer in respect of any investment they might make.

I suspect that the laws of natural selection play a significant part in the realities of selection attrition. I doubt there are many employers that flout the regulations in respect of age discrimination, however given that it tends to become harder and more time consuming for most people to learn new skills as they naturally age, coupled with the increasing imbalance of competition from a more youthful demographic, I would suppose that the odds of success generally become lower as age increases.

As already mentioned, the natural demographic for cadets tends (as with many other vocations) to centre on the school\university leaver with an age band of 19-26, and becomes progressively lower as you deviate away from that demographic.

It is also worth bearing in mind that laws applicable in say the US or the EU, have no bearing on laws in other parts of the world. This might (and does) prevent groups of qualified pilots from moving to those areas by sole reason of their age. It may also put reverse pressure on those first and second tier jobs by very experienced pilots (in the pre-retirement phase of their careers,) moving back home from such regions

Age discrimination legislation has also served to provide very experienced pilots with significant extensions to their lifetime careers, in some cases by up to 10 years! That clearly restricts the career throughput, where pressure is taken off the top tiers. It is far more common now (than say ten or even five years ago) to see senior pilots taking part time (and full time) positions, supplemented by a pension income. At the entry level, competition is extremely intense and there is simply no shortage (or anything like it) of quality resourced applicants. For many would be career changers, the risk/reward ratios are simply too highly weighted against them to meet the normal commitments likely to be found in older candidates.

All food for thought, and as I say every case is unique. However it would be very wrong of me to suggest that something abstract and ethereal is in reality ever likely to prove advantageous.

[NasGR]

Do you have any professional experience in a different field?

Pls answer so we can get a better/more relateable to us commoners idea of your perspective.

[Bealzebub]

No, just this one, with a full career spectrum of relevant experience on which to proffer the information. The perspective is from the inside and relates to the topic on which the question is being asked.

[NasGR]

Interesting to know.
It would be alarming if the harshness of competition many of your posts imply was in comparison to more down to earth(pun intended) lines of work.

The younger,cheaper (in salary or RoI) guy is a fierce competitor in other fields as well. I have personally come across and accepted that. Probably I was that competition some years back.

I do feel a bit more optimistic now.

The cost of training though is still a significant entry barrier that differentiates this career path and should definitely not be taken lightly.

[Reverserbucket]

Bealzebub - entirely agree with your observations. I've flown with mature and professional 19-22 year olds and immature and somewhat childish 50-60 year olds...life experience has nothing to do with it other than perhaps to enhance the conversational quality in the cruise and at the bar if you happen to have had some notable life experiences ;)


Interested in mockinkjay's comment about it being just a job as it struck a cord and reminded me of a recent encounter with an old friend who, at 19 managed to secure the financing to put himself though a self-sponsored integrated course at one of the large UK schools. Subsequently paid for a type-rating and joined a well-known B737 operator in the West of Europe, and based close to his home so none of the social issues described by mockingkjay. He later moved to a London based B747 operator, the type he currently operates. He categorically told me that he hated every minute of his first job and is bored to tears in his current role, so I suppose the comment made by Lindsay Craig that an airline career is not for everyone was certainly accurate in my friend's case. He is an upbeat, motivated and highly professional person now in his late 20's, but he says the only reason he's stuck with it is because he'd invested so much getting there.


Food for thought...I think.

[SAW77]

Hello.

So I've been doing the odd lessons spread over a few years to get my PPL with more regular ones this year. Before I took my first trial lesson I thought about a career change to a commercial pilot, so had a trial lesson to see if I liked it and I did ! so here I am with a few more hours towards my ppl but now like most don't see any light at the end of the tunnel to a career as a pilot which is now making me think do I just stop completely and not even get my ppl. I know a lot we say get a ppl and fly for fun add ratings etc but I still don't see the point if I'm not going to get the job at the end. It seems a waste of money. Am I literally talking myself out of it or actually maybe this career isn't for me and face facts that I might just enjoy flying but don't want it as a career ?

Anyone else in or been in this situation ?

[phdixon]

Saw77

Yes in a very similar position but completed my PPL around 4 years ago and even started the hour building, have around 80 hours now. However your right it is not a cheap hobby, couple that with trying to remain current to fly club aircraft every 28 days, weather and family restraints its a challenge. I started when I was 33 with the ultimate goal of going to the Airlines, seven years ago the industry was in a better place and I thought I would make it.

I have just let my SEP lapse this year due to lack of hours and also just turning 40 last month the odds are now stacked against me to go commercial. I am in the same boat is it worth continuing as a hobby due to cost. Or I have got this far I could gamble the lot go commercial for probably a poor return. Its difficult to even get time to complete the training due to wife, kids and time off work to complete ATPL exams which I started to study. Unless you have the time, money, work life balance and are confident you can get a job quickly its difficult, but I am sure it can and has been done by someone. If you meet that person let me know.

[shortfinals34]

To give a brief outline of my circumstances I have what is given above in the title I'm 34 years old and earn around £35 per year after tax in an occupation I can tolerate but by no means like.I have paid my mortgage off and I aren't into fancy cars or expensive stuff(except flying of course which is probably more expensive and addictive than a coke habit).


I have no degree but did well in general education and have equivalent qualifications in road transport.


Now that it's meant to be illegal for employers to discriminate based upon age? I'm considering whether at my time of life it would make more sense to turn what I enjoy doing as a hobby into what I do for a living and make money from it?


Whilst I know there is no as such right or wrong answer I would like some un bias views/opinions from people who know what they are talking about on whether based on the information and circumstances I've given to you whether I'm too late in life to pursue an airline pilot career or whether to go for it.Obviously if I were to go to an FTO they'd just fill my head with BS/and brainwash about pilot shortages and huge salaries to get me to sign up so no point going there


Although like everybody I need to earn some money, because my living costs are at the moment so low a huge salary isn't essential.


one more important point I maybe about to become a family man in the next couple of years .So professional pilot training could be an investment or a detriment to future finances.


All constructive advice views welcome.Thank you.

[Desk-pilot]

If it helps any of the posters here, I bailed from a well paid IT career aged 34, did an integrated course, went back to IT for 18 months job hunting and finally landed a turboprop job with a leading regional.

For about 12 months I was based 400 miles from my wife and two year old which was really difficult. I did enjoy the flying far more than IT and after a year managed to get a base where I could live at home.

I spent nearly 8 years at the regional airline before landing my dream airline job with a large international carrier.

Financially aged 46 I now live in a 4 bed detached house worth £450-500k but with a £330 000 mortgage. At age 33 in IT before pilot training I lived in an equivalent house of similar value but had a £169 000 mortgage. The difference is explained by the years I spent on a low salary as a regional FO on an interest only mortgage and the fact that we remortgaged to cover the training fees and the period I was a student. My wife has a decently paid job.

In truth I do enjoy flying far more than an office job but as some other posters have said it eventually becomes work and in truth I'd rather be at home with the family this weekend than away nightstopping and working. I'm more tired due to the shiftwork than I was in IT and so days off are often spent trying to rest and catch up on sleep. This gets worse as you get older - as an office worker I was usually full of beans on days off.

If I'd stayed in IT I reckon there's a good chance my mortage would be nearly gone and I could be looking forward to retiring in perhaps the next 5-10 years in my early fifties and spending my leisure time enjoying myself at home playing guitar or watching movies or cycling. Unfortunately this will not happen having chosen the flying option. I have no doubt that a day in a plane is generally more enjoyable than a day in an office, but even I'm not sure if that's enough recompense to make up for the delayed retirement! A day in a plane is not more enjoyable than a day playing guitar!

So, that's my insight from somebody who did it and followed the dream. I've seen some great views, flown with some amazing pilots and am truly proud to do the job and most days I still enjoy it to a degree. But it has a big impact on your personal life in terms of shared leisure time with your family, the stress of studying for exams, type ratings and checkrides etc and the rostering is getting more punishing everywhere.

If you've a good career and are in your thirties my advice is to think very carefully before doing it. Another option if you have a well paid but boring job is to go part time to make it more enjoyable - it will be cheaper than this career option!

DP

[dboy]

I agree with the previous poster! If you have a good career and you are in your thirties, think very rational and in numbers. Dont quit your job for the sake of flying. If you have a good career, freelance flying might be an option, but flying as your main job........think not twice but hundred times.

I was half in my twenties when i started my training. It took me 3 years to get my first flying job. Now i am still flyng for a small bizz jet operator and i can tell you....it really s.... :mad:!! Always being on stand by, getting underpaid, getting phonecalls on off days, being away from friends and family. The last 4.5 years i have been looking to other flying jobs. Not 1 single gig i got. Got always the middlefinger in my face: not having the typerating, not having experience on aicraft above 20 Tons, not being able to speak fluently the local language etc. It was always something, although i got experience, but operators simply dont care about experience anymore (tunnelvision). I also feel that in the mean time i am not current anymore with new technologies because i only fly with old aircraft. So yes in some way i am not "up to date". And in the mean time i am getting older. Oh, and the lpc :mad:like hell. A joke it is. It is all very disturbing and yes, i can truly say, i am not feeling a professional pilot anymore.

Now i gave up on applying and decided to throw the towel in the ring. I really did my best to improve but somehow......i dont know. I am now putting my focus on other things in my private life (friends, hobbies, buying a small house...)Yes i am still working with the same company, but reducing my flexibility and looking for another job in other field..

What i experience can happen to you as well. You dont have all things in your hands. Make sure you have a back up plan and like i said: think in numbers. If you have a nice career, would you be able to have the same lifestyle when you fly with a pilot salary??? And don't neglect your private life. I discovered it is sooooo important. I even would say, it is the fundament of ones life.

A friend of me, who is already 50, got recently a job with a regional carrier in the States. No life at all, living in crash pads and underpaid as hell. All for the sake of sitting in a cockpit.

Good luck and decide wise!:ok:

[Dr Mike Oxgreen]

Am I too old to get a job?

I know, I know, it's a perennial question. I've signed up to get some advice and have spent an hour or two reading past threads on the subject, but I haven't found anything recent and it strikes me that the world is very different from how it was a few years ago. Also, the threads I've read are from people in a very different situation personally, financially and in terms of flying experience. Of course, what I've read has been pretty negative, but I wanted to find out whether anything has changed, and whether my circumstances make the risk low enough to be worth taking.

I am 43 years old. I am married, but with no kids and a family isn't going to happen. My wife works and earns a decent salary as a school teacher; we could survive on her pay for a few years if we needed to. Our mortgage is not too far from being paid off, although that will be delayed if I were to spend 18 months training followed by searching for a job. But I reckon we'd be okay, even if I ultimately had to abandon the flying idea and do something else.

I have a lapsed PPL with 400+ hours on light singles, of which 300+ P1. So this means I already have 90% of the prerequisite experience for the CPL (just lacking night) - that is 200 hours of flying that I won't have to do. I also have an IMC rating (although I never used it) - so the IR won't be quite as difficult as it would be for someone with no instrument flying. Still very tough, I know.

With my flying experience, I reckon I could get to fATPL for around £30-35k. I am in the fortunate position of having shares that will easily cover that, so no need to increase the mortgage. I won't be putting myself into debt; in fact I'll still have enough savings to put towards a type rating if I need to.

Flying friends have told me that the ATPL theories will be hard work, but I won't struggle. I have a degree in mathematics and a strong scientific background; in fact, I really like the idea of doing some intense studying! Okay, there's some boring stuff to learn as well as the interesting technical stuff, but that's okay.

I gave up my job as a software development team leader just before Christmas, because I was getting too much project management and corporate bull**** and it was making me stressed and unhappy. I was earning very decent money and I'm under no illusions that I'll probably never earn that much again, but I don't really care. A FO job flying Dash-8s for Flybe would be a £35k pay cut, but hey-ho!

If I'm honest, I'd rather not have to move. I live in Woking, which puts Heathrow, Gatwick, Southampton, possibly Bournemouth, and probably City within commuting distance. Luton and Stansted would be a bit of a ball-ache, but I could probably do that for a while. In terms of job style, I'd rather not be away from home for more than a few days at a time, a week max. Within these parameters, I'm willing to consider the less glamorous jobs, including more 'niche' flying - but an airline or regional passenger flying job would be ideal.

At the moment, I'm applying the "Regret Test": imagining myself in 10 years' time, will I look back and regret it more if I try and fail, or if I don't try? I kinda think I'd regret it more if I don't try.

Obviously I've put a positive spin on things. But what do you think? Is there a realistic chance of my finding something?

[truckflyer]

Dr Mike Oxgreen; Been there, done that, know the pain and regret stories, tried it and yes I was lucky got a job. However few things, you need to realize, you have already limited yourself to much, if you believe you will get a job at any of those areas you mentioned.

There are many with thousands of hours experience, currently working abroad who is just waiting for jobs in these areas to be available, so to expect to get a UK job, is putting a big limitation on yourself.

I know loads of guys commuting from around Europe, the world, just waiting for chances with UK carriers to get home. Also you have flying schools like CTC who are propping up many of the major airlines with cadets, so do not expect to have a chance to get a job in the UK until you at least have 1000 - 1500 hours experience on some heavy metal.

Here is what I would say, as has been said many times before, you will have FTO's trying to get your cash, they will let you dream and believe. fATPL is one small step, but you will also need to pay for your TR, that can be another £20 - 35K, and this is nearly without any exception, specially at your ago, no airline will invest in your TR. No one. So you will need at least £70.000 to get you where you want to go.

Also current market situation, who knows what will be of FlyBe and Monarch within the next 5 years, there could be loads of pilots without jobs soon. Thats why loads are jumping ship from Monarch, because they are expecting the end to arrive soon.

The fact is, if you can accept to spend £70.000, and 5% chance of getting a job, and approx 0.1% chance that the job will be in the UK, then you should go for it.

I personally got there, did it, but it cost me a lot, and is still costing me a lot, both financially and personally. For 3 years I had almost no social life, no time or money to enjoy life, it is a hard job, and to be honest I sometimes consider my own sanity when I know what I could have used that money I made for.

I have managed to maintain a foot outside in other business too, and that is what saved me financially, and is what gives me the "freedom" to just quit if I have had enough of crap lifestyle and working conditions.

I now got few thousand hours on heavy jet, and I could NOT SURVIVE on my pay alone from flying, there is NO WAY I could survive and maintain my lifestyle on this money alone.

However I do see a light at the end of the tunnel, but I will need to work triple time for at least another 3 - 4 years.

There are many jaded pilots out there, who wish they could still fly just as a hobby, because it has it great moments, but when you doing 6 consecutive days, where you do multiple transitions from early mornings to late nights, back to mornings again, and you only get 2 full days of proper rest, it's really not worth it, because the financial reward does not match the sacrifices you have to make.

"I live in Woking, which puts Heathrow, Gatwick, Southampton, possibly Bournemouth, and probably City within commuting distance. Luton and Stansted would be a bit of a ball-ache" ; sorry to be the bearer of bad news, just to give you an example for the previous 3 years I commuted 4 hours by air EVERY week, with sometimes multiple flights/changes.

The last 1.5 year I have been commuting every working day around average of 4 hours (2 + 2) - So on a 12 hour duty day, with minimum rest, I have max 8 hours to relax, eat, life, write on PPRUNE, before I have to be on the go again. Have multiple days like this and you see real fatigue. Of course within limits of base, but you always need to calculate some buffer time, traffic, public transport issues, it NEVER ends! Uk jobs maybe in Scotland etc. if you are lucky. That's reality you need to expect.

As I said light soon in the end of the tunnel, as soon I will only have 30 minutes travel to work, and that will be like a whole new life! Still not enough money to survive though.

I am sorry this is not the answer you maybe are looking for, I know this from my own experience, looking for the answer that I wanted to see, confirmation bias!

[ersa]

Your never to old to start flying.......The issue being the ageist companies that recruit are just that.........

[Marlon Brando]

Here is my experience, I tried, I failed.

I'm 41 now. I had this brilliant idea myself, i started the flight training at 37 to change my career and work as a pilot.

PPL, then atpl theory, then cpl ir me in a very famous (and expensive) UK flight school.

Everything went fine, 92% ATPL results, first time pass for practical exam, MCC, JOC.... English icao level 6.
My english was poor when I started. When the teachers were making jokes, I was laughing to not sound retarded, but it took me a few month to get it....
as you can read it, I'm the new Shakespeare now.

A very nice work really. It took me 3 years for the whole process. And I'm still proud for what I've achieved.

I liked the theory, except air law and ops, awful.
My time building in the usa was awesome. I went from the west coast to the east coast in a piper 28, alone, sleeping sometimes in FBos, sometimes in hotels... Did some low pass over wild horses in Arizona, stopped a few nights in Texas for the music, landed in las vegas international with 80 hrs Total time !
Epic

Then the CPL IR in UK, in winter....real IMC flying.

Well, I enjoyed it. Then with my nice blue professional pilot license, I tried to get a job !
It won't be easy, I know, but I have good reports from my flight school, good recommendations, i speak fluently 3 languages, i have friends in the industry, it should work.

Well this was 2 years ago, and I still didn't get the chance to have an interview!
Not talking about a job, but just an interview ! Even from the crap companies that make you pay for an interview, they don't want to see me...
Some companies say no to my letters, CV, online applications, etc...but usually they just say nothing.

In my previous job, I was comfortable, things were easy, I was on the job for 15 years, people knew me, I had a status and respect.
As an unemployed pilot, things are a bit different...

After a year and a half of "online job hunting" for nothing, i decided to give it a try in Africa. I was used to Africa from my previous job. Same story there, you need 500hrs on type. Either for a 737, a beech or a C172, same rule, 500 hrs on type. Spent 2 months over there, quite an adventure as well, I could write a book...

Back in Europe now, "internet job hunting" .... Lovely...
I have no loan, i had the money for the training. My wife has a great job, i'm ok...
There will be a position available in my previous company in a few months, in a lovely place in Europe. I will take it (they like me a lot!) and stop with this aviation story. Next month I will renew my IR-ME (800€ again) for the last time.
Don't have the money or the motivation for a p2F theme. Don't want to be a part of this con.

Now that I'm here, would I do it again ?
I don't know. As crazy as it sounds, I would say yes. It would have been worst to never try I think. But I will always feel bitter entering an airport, seeing the planes, the staff...
The worst feeling is that I know that I would have done the job properly, with dedication and professionalism, and i would have loved it.
In my next life maybe.