Gliders and near misses.

[Snap]

With last weekends fatal glider collision in Worcestershire and the news today that a Tornado and a glider came within 100ft of collision near Brize last year is it about time that gliders were forced to take some responsibility for thier actions?

Anyone who flies GA aircraft will know that it is extremely difficult to spot a glider unless its in a turn and downright impossible if its on a headon course .

Near Kemble the other day I saw a glider with orange dayglow stripes which was highly visible and allowed me to take avoiding action in plenty of time. Why is it that most gliders are rendered almost invisible to the naked eye. Whilst i recognise that Powered flight ac must give way to gliders I object to vast areas of lower airspace being effectivley out of bounds due to gliding activities and what appears to be brash disregard to any form of conspicuity at all.


:mad: :mad:

[wysiwyg]

One of the disadvantages of composite structures (of which most modern gliders are manufactured) is that the heating effect of sunlight weakens the structure. As a result, they are mostly painted white with some form of colour at the extremities where there is low structural load.
Surely nowadays we have the technology to overcome this problem, although I guess the costs of re-gel coating (in a lightproof material) would be prohibitive for any secondhand machine.

[Snap]

I understand that but surley something could be done. They seem to WANT to be inconspicuous and then blame powered types when they get too close.

[Mr moto]

Extremely difficult to see unless they're turning?
What do you suppose gliders do for probably 90% of their flight time?

This is a debate you'll never win because pound for pound glider pilots are better airmen than power pilots!

About a quarter of the members of the gliding club I belong to are airline pilots who only fly powered aircraft for money or as a tug.

So you're actually saying you can't see on a map where there's intense gliding activity?

Or is your understanding of meteorology so poor that you don't know how a cumulus works?

Glass fibre designs have that aforementioned disadvantage caused by heat but what is the basic colour of the vast majority of the GA fleet?

Gosh! Its white with a couple of go faster stripes, isn't it?

[yellowperil]

Snap,

There have been experiments done to increase glider visibility; a study carried out by Cranfield University, supported by the BGA and conducted using Grob 109’s at RAFGSA Centre at Bicester concluded they weren’t much good. Day-glo stripes were applied to the leading edges, similar to the markings on ATC gliders and they were ‘spotted’ (or not) compared to unmarked 109’s.

The conclusion was “there is evidence that breaking up the outline of an aircraft by painting it or adding stripes may make it more difficult to detect”, after the motorgliders failed to see each other… I read this report (Flashes don’t show up well in sight test) in the Dec 2000 – Jan 2001 issue of Sailplane and Gliding magazine.

Previous evidence suggests that the best colour for glider conspicuity is black, but as was pointed out, this is not possible due to their GRP construction.

However, there is no substitute for looking out of the window when you’re flying, and I think that glider pilots tend to do this more than powered pilots. Given a glider is always on the lookout for thermal energy to stay airborne, you have to keep your eyes out of the cockpit and connect them to your brain. This is even more the case when there are other gliders around, let alone trying to join your thermal in your blind spot…

Contrast this with some power jockey flying his (or her) instruments, glancing out of the window to confirm what the GPS is already saying…!?!

Extreme examples I’m sure you’ll agree, but I hope you take the point. Don’t forget that when you don’t have an engine you can hear things, like someone else’s engine, and you tend to try and see where the noise is coming from, especially if it’s heading towards you and is clear that the other pilot hasn’t noticed you’re there…! And yes, powered aircraft should give way to gliders.

And as for the military charging around like they’re the only ones in the sky, well that’s nothing new is it?!?

I think the motto is that there is no substitute for good lookout, and to expect the unexpected! Glider pilots know to look out for powered aircraft (they get us into the sky!), do you know to look out for gliders?!?

yp

[sam_flying]

Just my two penny's worth.....

I practically live at a gliding airfield...and very regularly see aircraft fly overhead at heights which our winch cables can quite easily reach. I have also had to take action to get out of the way of a group of Spitfires and a Hurricane as they came home from an airshow last year...transiting right over the airfield seeming oblivious to the thirty or forty gliders in the area.

However - I have often wondered why gliders do not have nav lights or something similar. Everyone has probably seen the little flashing red lights that people put on their bicycles...they are very small and battery powered...and also very bright. I wonder why couldn't these be 'stuck' on the end of each wing of a glider. They are lightweight and very easy to maintain, plus cheap...and would make gliders a hell of a lot easier to see.

Just my humble opinion...trust me I know what its like to get too close to a glider whilst flying a powered aircraft!!!

Sam

[Kray]

Snap, please let us all know when you're flying, so we can keep ourselves safely on the ground.

Gliders are only difficult to spot if you don't keep a good lookout. Power pilots(I have 90hrs) are notoriously bad at not keeping a good lookout, the sit as if they are in a car, looking ahead only, also fumbling around with maps, gps's, charts etc.

As as glider pilot also(70hrs), I spend my entire time looking out of the cockpit, especially looking for other aircraft. The one instrument which glider pilots use predominantly is audiable. This is so we can spend all our time looking out, not head down in the cockpit. There's then the other reasons, looking out for other gliders, soaring birds, changing clouds, location of building clouds etc which are essential to a glider pilot. Chances are we'll have seen you before you've seen us.

Then there's the weather. If you go flying on a good summers day, especially if it's a blue sky with lots of tidy cumulus clouds around, there will be more gliders in the air than powered aircraft. We tend to fly under these nice clouds, and also staight down cloud streets, under them. Tip: Try and fly in the blue bits, as we spend less time in them.

None of this lower airspace is effectivly out of bounds to you. If you can't keep a good lookout, it's probably safer if you fly IFR at altitude, and ATC can do the lookout instead.

You also mentioned a Tornado missing a glider by 100'. I don't reacall a glider ever being hit by a fast jet, however, I do recall collisions and near misses between light aircraft and fast jets(Aerial photography aircraft for example).

[Genghis the Engineer]

I think that glider pilots are more sinned against than sinning, but...

(1) It can't be that hard to put stobes and a power supply on a glider without damaging it's performance.

(2) Yellow and orange are also very visible but still reflect UV and thus don't damage the GRP.

(3) When you spot an aircraft that hasn't seen you (and flying microlights much of the time, I understand the problem well) it is sensible to tip your wing planform so that the other chap can see it. I do this regularly in the microlight, and don't see why a glider pilot can't rather than just ignoring the other traffic - which is legally correct but poor airmanship.

(4) It would be no trouble at-all to stick a Luneberg lense within a glider fuselage, making sure that you show up on primary returns.

G

[Final 3 Greens]

Having started off in gliders in 1980 and converted to power later there is no doubt in my mind that gliders are more difficult to spot than other aircraft, excepting some microlights; I usually see a glint of reflected sunlight from the wings as they turn.

I find the attitude of some glider pilots rather arrogant "We are better pilots" - frankly I don't want to be in a competition, just safe. I also find the attitude of some power pilots to be arrogant too, so I am not anti glider.

If I see other traffic in the vicinity, I usually rock my wings or do a mild S turn to give them a better chance of seeing me as it is movement that attracts the attention of the eye as we all know.

Glider pilots, please do not overlook that:

1 Powered pilots tend to have a greater workload (e.g. engine and radio to manage)

2 They are usually covering the ground faster than gliders therefore have more of a changing sky to scan

3 Gliders are only one set of traffic to scan for - we do not wish to fixate on Cu, the "blue bits" also contain traffic too

I agree with Genghis' comments, both about sinning and also ways of being safer.

Let's understand each other's problems and try to fly safely.

:)

[FNG]

engage whinge mode

What is it with Private Flying at the moment? The same threads come around at roughly monthly or six weekly intervals (just like Cessnas in the Cranfield circuit?). I appreciate that this is a pan-pprune phenomenon, but we seem to be getting an unusual dose of it at the moment.

As for the thread itself, as a powered punter but incipent glider wannabe, I'm with you guys. Snap: If you're worried about gliders, don't go near their sites (hint: look for the big "guh" on the map) don't fly along ridges etc, and try looking out of the window instead of at the GPS for a change.

whinge mode disengaged

PS: always possible that this thread is a wind up, in which case it is most welcome as perhaps we get as bit serious in here sometimes, but probably not as a winder-upper would be unlikely to refer to a fatal accident as a starting point.

PPS: I must have been visiting Jet Blast too often lately as otherwise (1) I wouldn't be paranoid about wind-ups and (2) I wouldn't have gone into full rant at Mr Snap. Final 3 Greens' post below this one does after all contain some balanced points.

[ 20 July 2001: Message edited by: FNG ]

[Squawk 8888]

Further to that I'd suggest that glider jockeys take a look at the charts just as we do. I saw the glider field on the chart near my track, but did you guys see the Victor airway 5 miles from your field? I encountered a glider thermalling in the centreline just ahead of me, I was able to avoid him but what about the faster guys flying IFR not much higher up? I know they have to maintain a lookout in VMC regardless of the flight rules they're using, but assuming the other fella sees you can be fatal.

[Snap]

All I was trying to do here was work out why gliders are so inconspicuous and what could be done about it to make ALL our lives safer.

As for the personal abuse apart from being counter productive I find it quite amusing that some comes from someone called Kray. Now Im sure that your a nice chap and all that but with 90 hours in your logbook I`d wait until you have a little more experience before slagging off someone who has prooved
themselves. ie Me.

I do look out and have done so for 2000+ hours without serious incident and as for "letting you know when I`m in the air so you can stay on the ground" Ive hauled more green pilots out of the S**T than your ever likley to and next time your in trouble you had better pray to god that your as competent as me.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Snap and Kray, do you think you could conduct your vendettas in private.

On a more serious note, I think that those of us used to gliders, microlights and light helicopters should bear in mind that, workload aside, our ability to lookout is much better than anybody's possibly could be in your average light aircraft - we have less to worry about and less obstructions to a true 360° lookout. It doesn't excuse poor lookout in a light aircraft, but they do have the odds more against them than we do.

Gliders and microlights are probably the hardest thing to see in the air, especially end-on. So a small "landing light" in nose and tail is probably the most useful low-power aid to visibility. A tad harder to fit a light in the tail of a microlight (that whirly thing up the back) but not impossible, and a trivial problem for a glider.

G

[ 20 July 2001: Message edited by: Genghis the Engineer ]

[trolleydollylover]

I must agree with snap as we have had many conversations about this and have spent a couple of hundred hours flying together. I must admit that there is very little that we haven't seen together and apart from a few tech problems both of us agree that most of our workload is spent transiting around glider sites. I am afraid to say gentlemen that you are very difficult if not impossible to see.

We know where you hang out and areas that you are likely to be, but believe it or not the UK airspace is very very crowded.

It is a shame to say it but there are bad pilots in all catagories. The post was about what can be done about being conspicuous not that you have 150 hrs. So lets get back to the point and look at what can be done by owners, before you are regulated.

Does anybody have any idea how many gliders and microlights for that matter have a radio and transponder.

[Mr moto]

What's a 2000hr+ chap putting a thread like this on the Wannabe Forum?

Anyway, I've always found gliders quite easy to see. The sun flashing on the entire high gloss spam is a dead giveaway.
When they're going cross country, straight, they can be going as fast as most spam-cans but any aircraft head-on is a hard target to spot.

I'm often amazed how hard it can be even when the TCAS is telling you exactly where to look.

A friend of mine died in a collision with a Cherokee descending out of the sun.

Incidentally, what's wrong with a competition for who's the safest?
It seves to improve the standards on all sides.

[Genghis the Engineer]

I think you'll find that a large proportion of microlights routinely carry radios, but not that many gliders. Ditto strobes.

You won't find transponders in many of either - at £1500+ for a transponder in an aircraft that probably cost less than £10k not many operators can justify the cost.

G

[Snap]

The reason I put this thread on wannabees is that I felt I could learn something about the gliding fraternity best from this forum and as Ive learned lots of useful stuff from lower houred pilots as well as the more experienced. I thought, rightly apart from a few misfits, that here would be were a few people who know something about gliding would hang out.

I realise that gliders have every right to be in the air but a battery powered transponder can be had for 1200 quid which is a small price to pay and a tranciever for 400 or so which would have be useful to ATC at an aerodrome myself and Trolley were at the other day when a glider turned up unannounced scattering two student pilots and a heli to the four winds.

We as fixed powered pilots have a huge amount of legislation to deal with, admittedly most of it claptrap, but whats the use of only some of us airmen/women abiding by the same rules. Some form of conspicuity, be it strobes, transponders,dayglow stripes etc must become compulosry on gliders before we all regret our inaction. Handheld Radios are a MUST. Surley thats not too much to
ask! :confused:

[trolleydollylover]

I agree but the appropriate representaion for spelling and syntax errors!

Look out, look out, cause trolley is about! :D

[Speedbird252]

Final Three Greens calls it totally correct.

Lets work together here.

Nuff said.

[SOHCAHTOA]

Surely gliders are not the only aircraft difficult to see.
I fly a small PFA aircraft which is a bugger to see on some days.
I agree gliders, due to their profile, are difficult to spot and anything that can be done to make them more high-vis can only be a good thing and that also relates to ALL aircraft.
Keeping a good look out is your first line of defence especially when you spot gliding activity marked on your map (remember the days before we sat staring at the GPS ;) )

[Mr moto]

OK, Snap. Go gliding sometime.
I have my feet in three camps. Gliding, powered flying and airline flying.

Alot of PPL's spend alot of time moaning about the legislation involved in their flying.

Gliding is, to me, the purest form of flying.

There are some gliders with quite sophisticated tracking systems but in the end the cost and practicality of a transponder will always prevent them from being installed.

I'd like to know more about the radar patch Genghis mentioned though I have the reservation that it requires a pilot to be receiving a radar service to derive any benefit. Receiving radar service = talking on the radio = fiddling with frequencies = stress = not looking out of the window.

This was demonstrated by my father to a fairly new PPL a couple of weekends ago on the way to Le Touq when London information were so busy they were closed and they were passes off to Lydd who only said hello and good-bye. They just sat in peace and enjoyed the ride.

What's the addiction to the radio?

[Final 3 Greens]

Mr Motot

It's good to talk....

[BEagle]

Finals3 - not always! Use the radio only when you need it, don't expect a RIS on a day like today, use London FIS for information if you need it; as I'm sure most people know, London FIS cannot provide any ATC service.

Many a navex I've examined has highlighted very poor use of R/T - over concentration on 'LARS' on 8/8 blue days and insufficient attention paid to aerodromes encountered en-route.

There is an increasing tendency to hear "ERRR - Somewhere Radar, this is errr Golf Alfa Hello Good Morning, we are a errr Spamcan 145Romeo mark 2, on a navigation exercise from err Boontown to Elsewhere routing via the ABC to the DEF to the GHI to the JKL at 2500 feet on the err Wherever QNH of err 1008. Requesting Radar Advisory Service, over" To which ATC respond:"Golf Golf Mike - you are outside my radar cover, suggest you call Mendip Radar on 123.55. G'day"

Please - only use R/T if you need to and not just because it's there. When you do - don't witter on and on. Who you are, where you are and what you want to happen - they want anything else, they ask for it!

[Final 3 Greens]

BEagle

I was being ironic!

The line I quoted was from a senseless BT ad if you remember, trying to drum extra use of the phone up by creating something out of nothing to talk about.

Therefore we actually agree.


:p

[BEagle]

Sorry mate - it's these silly new icons! I've stopped using them and have to rely on prose instead!

"Squawking 7000, to en-route, g'day!"

[bcfc]

So, without actually going gliding (only just go the hang of this powered stuff), how can I learn the characteristics of gliding that could help in me in avoiding them - already learnt something today (avoid ridges).

To make an analogy, I read a book a while back about a long distance lorry driver and learnt enough to appreciate the problems they have (i.e., sharp bends require more room so don't be a tw*t and cut them up just 'cos you in a GTI)

At the moment, I check if gliding is active in our local site and give it a wide bearth - not always ideal.

[Mr moto]

Bcfc.
Er, good point! Its quite hard to find what you describe as gliding is a very practical sport. Also depends on what the glider pilot is up to; maybe be there's a competition with a 300km triangle or a 100km out and back, Maybe a 1000m height gain or a 5 hr endurance. Also depends upon the airspace and thermic conditions but typically from ground to cloud base will be divided into three layers where in the lower third you'll take any lift going or be looking for a good field. In the middle third you'll only stop for a certain amount of lift otherwise you're en route. In the top third you're going places. Cloud streets (a line of Cu's) are good business for glider pilots.
Throw in a couple or twelve other gliders on the same course and you've got a bit to think about.

Doesn't help much if you don't know what their goal is but I hope you can understand a little of the nature of the sport.

You could approach the gliding club and ask them to notify your airfield if they have any events planned.

Incidentally, I once knocked 7 minutes off a paradrop flight by thermalling. The VSI was off the scale!

[Vfrpilotpb]

Good morning ppruners,
In the area local to me we have a few glider sites they always seem to stick to that area for it is in the terms of those chap good glidding country, they always show up for they are always circling, obviously to pick up their free lift, as yet I have only in three years of Heli flying come across two cross country gliders and they did show up reasonably well, other posters on this thread have made comments about hang gliders always seem to carry radios, well its the hangliders who I am very wary of, On at least four occassions I have come across these chaps by absolute surprise, with the local ATC not being aware of them or even able to pick them up on the Radar on two of these occassions at heights above 3000ft, all they do is give me a good wave(or it could be two fingers who knows) but they never seem to be on local radio watch which I feel would be to their advantage more than others, however we are all entitled to be in the air, we are all equals when in the air, so why dont these people, Gliders and Hang gliders make their hobby a little more secure by haveing a radio of sorts, they dont need to talk to anybody but they would be more aware of heavy metal comming towards them, would they not!! :eek:

[Kermit 180]

Lots of debate here over strobes and high vis markings. Ive flown gliders as well as aeroplanes and can only say that there is no substitute for a damn good look out at all times.

Incidentally, strobes during daylight, in my opinion, aren't nearly as effective as they're made out to be. I have had more near misses with other aeroplanes when flying a Diamond Katana (very thin aeroplane with glider heritage) than i ever did flying gliders. Its interesting to note that at the time of each of these near misses I had every light I could possible have, on.

Keep safe, keep your eyes and ears open.

Kermie :eek:

[Final 3 Greens]

Kermie

I agree with your comments about strobes - it's the relative movement of the other traffic during a scan that seems to bring it to my attention.

[ls7glider]

It's a real shame that there is so much misunderstanding about other forms of aviation to the one that you're involved in. As an all-round aviator, military, GA and gliding, with over 1000hrs in each, I'm lucky enough to see 'the other-side's story'.

To answer a couple of points about transponders and radios. The problem with fitting a transponder to a glider is space (and yes, I know that there are some very small ones on the market). Most glider instrument panels are very small because of the need to have everything as compact as possible, and it would be very difficult to actually fit one in amongst the other instruments we have (if you don't believe me, ask to look behind a high performance sailplane's instrument panel sometime). On the subject of radios, I bet that you would find very few gliders without them these days.

The original thread, though, was about glider conspicuity. The colour of composite gliders being sited as the prime problem. Well, I'm sorry to say but the problem lies mostly in the lack of relative motion and size of the aircraft. I'll bet no-one has a problem seeing a nice white airliner flying along at 200 knots plus. There is no substitute for maintaining a good lookout at all times and not getting your head buried in the cockpit staring at maps and electronic gizzmos. During a gliding comp I was flying in last summer, whilst folowing a line of energy (that's the nice line of cumulus for the uninitiated) did I watch 2 light aircraft, a Cherokee and an Aztec, converge on me from my 2 o'clock and pass within a few hundred feet in front of me within 5 minutes of each other. Neither showed any indication that they had seen me whereas I had watched both for more than a minute before they passed me. I can assure you that I was not flying straight and level as I was constantly changing height when I flew in and out of lift, and I was also gently weaving to either side of track to follow the best lift. Thus, I was providing them with a moving manoeuvring airframe at all times.

So come on Guys and Gals, stop blaming the problems on a lack of transponders, radios and lights - get your eyes OUT of the cockpit when flying VFR, whatever you fly.

[glider insider]

just my humble thoughts on the matter.!!!!

I agree that it should be compulsory for all air traffic to have a working transciever ( excuse spelling), and where possible the gliding world should look at making gliders more visible...

but, i dont think transponders would work , think of the numbers of gliders that you get in very close proximity to each other, both in the circuit and in thermals, surely the pure number of transponder blips on a controllers screen would be unworkable and cause more hassle than it's worth.

no pilot is absolved from good airmanship, and in defence of us glider people, due to the increased need when gliding to keep head up to continually monitor attitude the glider pilot ( IMHO ) prob performs a better look out, the lookout is something that should be reinforced more strongly in every pilot of all aircraft types... the increasingly common use of GPS has resulted in a " heads down " breed of pilot, and they should revert back to an aviation chart ( which marks on it all gliding sites) and more traditional nav methods, as I think that these methods make for a better pilot.


anyway.... speech over...!!!!

[Final 3 Greens]

Glider Insider/Chilled Out Chap

Good lookout is essential, but you both seem to be in denial of the fact that you guys are HARD to see in typical VMC conditions.

Large airliners doing 200kts do get attention it is true, but having shared airspace with this type of traffic in the US, they are hard to see head on at 5NM and at a closing speed of 5NM/minute they can also pop out of nowhere; however at any decent angle their mass will tend to show against the sky, assuming that they are above your level. Not always as easy to see in the climb out of suburban clutter as you might imagine.

Please see my earlier postings, I used to fly gliders and now fly powered and am supportive of gliding.

But white coloured composite gliders are difficult to see against a cloudy or hazy skyscape, period. Also see the earlier posting about the Katana, with which I agree.

We should always give way to you (from the law and airmanship perspectives), but you also have a moral responsibility to help us to see you from a point of good airmanship and mutually safe skies.

Genghis has already stated his tactic in a micro light and it would help if glider pilots would be a little more proactive in waggling wings etc to cause the flash of refected light that gets our attention. I note your comments chilled out chap and point out that I am commenting generally and acknowledging your particular actions.

As a final point, ask yourself why the RAF paints its training a/c BLACK. I realise that composite airframes do not appreciate this treatment , but its your choice to fly them and we all need to pull together in the interests of safety - I keep a really good lookout and it is scary how often a white glider pops out of a white sky much closer than I would prefer.

I also don't understand this vendetta against GPS - if used properly it will reduce the "heads in" time and one should not wait until airborne to be cognisant with glider sites wiht 5NM of planned track - in other words I think that this argument is a red herring.

To apply your argument to all traffic is also naive, as you might well be mixing it with IFR traffic flying in VMC, whose primary reference point is the panel, so you really ought to consider single crew IFR and the consequences - they also have a right to be up there.

If a powered pilot flying visually is so "heads in", what happens to the a.c attitude?? Unusual attitude pretty quickly if the wing levelller is off.

[ 08 August 2001: Message edited by: Final 3 Greens ]

[ls7glider]

Final 3 Greens

Certainly not in denial that we glider chaps in composite sailplanes are difficult to see. I'm just a great advocate for improving the lookout of the average chap in the skies. Have lost several very good friends over the years in mid-airs so am well aware of the problems of a lack of lookout. And yes, GPS should help to keep eyes out of the cockpit but I'm afraid a lack of familiarity with it's operation (along with other electronic gizzmos on the panel) leads to an over-attraction to the compulsive displays. It's amazing how a little confusion with what's being displayed can sap such a huge amount of brain capacity. I'm afraid this is fact no matter who you are and what experience you have. Even with all the practice I've had driving the Queen's finest 'toys' around the skies over the years I know my lookout could be improved - so I'm sure everyone elses could be as well.

[Final 3 Greens]

Chilled Out Chap

I agree with the points that you make and am sorry to hear that you have lost friends in mid airs - we had a nasty one at North Weald ood as the in the recent past and it made us all consider our airmanship and lookout.

Yes, lookout can never be too good and I can't help but feel that one of the main challenges for PPLs is achieving the unconscious competence to fly accurately with little attention, freeing up more time to look out of the cabin (which is often far from perfect - e.g. if all SEP offered visibility like the Bulldog, it would be a better world.)

:)