CAA PPL Licence

[T18]

Hello you knowledgeable people, A friend of mine is due to undertake his skills test next week-end, on completion how long for the CAA to issue the licence?

Am I right in thinking that the application may be monitered during the waiting period?

I have just been perusing the CAA charges, my goodness they are eye watering these days.

Thanks, T18

[liam548]

think mine took about 2-3 weeks to arrive through the door

[Ryan5252]

Eyewatering indeed!!

Took mine 3 weeks and 1 day to process. You can call them to confirm reciept but they won't have much more information than that. I recieved my licence on a Monday, I called them the previous Thursday to check the progress and they informed me they hadn't yet processed it but should be soon. When I received the licence it was interesting to note that the valid from date was the Friday i.e. the day after I phoned them and I had it in my hand the following Monday! Evidently it takes three weeks for them to look at it and 24 to process it and stick in an envelope.

BTW, they use Fedex not Royal Mail, so they will give you a call after a week or so to take payment for return postage aprox £4.50 - apparently this is not covered in the £170 original fee paid, greedy :mad:!

On a separate note, I applied for an AFPEX account two weeks ago - today I received my user name in the post and they advised the password will be sent by email in the next WEEKS! :eek:

[T18]

Many thanks for the prompt response folks.

My friend is charged I believe £160 per hour for a C152, thats two and half hours for the test plus the fee, crazy prices!

T18

[liam548]

Eyewatering indeed!!

Took mine 3 weeks and 1 day to process. You can call them to confirm reciept but they won't have much more information than that. I recieved my licence on a Monday, I called them the previous Thursday to check the progress and they informed me they hadn't yet processed it but should be soon. When I received the licence it was interesting to note that the valid from date was the Friday i.e. the day after I phoned them and I had it in my hand the following Monday! Evidently it takes three weeks for them to look at it and 24 to process it and stick in an envelope.

BTW, they use Fedex not Royal Mail, so they will give you a call after a week or so to take payment for return postage aprox £4.50 - apparently this is not covered in the £170 original fee paid, greedy :mad:!

On a separate note, I applied for an AFPEX account two weeks ago - today I received my user name in the post and they advised the password will be sent by email in the next WEEKS! :eek:


that return postage fee is new then, cheeky!

[SpeedbirdXK8]

Something else to consider. As I am aware you are NOT legal to fly unless you have your licence in your hand (so to speak). It's in the post doesn't count.

[T18]

My understanding is that you may fly solo until you have the expensive grubby brown document in your mitt!

Thereafter you now have a licence to learn, I'm still learning after twenty three years.

[mrmum]

T18

That used to be the case pre JAA, your instructor could just keep sending you on solo flights after your GFT, until you got your PPL issued.

This is no longer the case, The ANO has been amended, supervised solo is only legal when for the issue of a licence or rating, once you've applied for a licence, it's dual only or stay on the ground until you have received and signed your PPL.

[Katamarino]

I suppose the American concept of issuing a temporary license straight after the skills test to tide you over until the real one arrives is too much like a good idea for our incompetent CAA...

[T18]

mrmum,

Thank you for the info, I wonder if the reason is to allow the CAA to check all of the paper work prior to issue. I thought that the instructer/examiner would do the check then sign the the paper work accordingly.

Would it be cynical of me to suppose that the CAA check the paper work again as part of the justification for separating us from so much cash.

T18

[stevelup]

This is no longer the case, The ANO has been amended, supervised solo is only legal when for the issue of a licence or rating, once you've applied for a licence, it's dual only or stay on the ground until you have received and signed your PPL.

Either one or both of the above statements can't be right? The ANO states the following for both dual and solo:-

Flight crew licence requirement – Exception for solo flying training
52 (1)
A person may act as pilot in command of an aircraft for the purpose of becoming qualified for the grant or renewal of a pilot's licence or the inclusion or variation of any rating in a pilot's licence within the United Kingdom, the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man, without being the holder of an appropriate licence granted or rendered valid under this Order, if the conditions in paragraph (2) are satisfied.

Flight crew licence requirement – Exception for dual flying training
53 (1)
A person may act as pilot of an aircraft of which the flight crew required to be carried by or under this Order is not more than one pilot for the purpose of becoming qualified for the grant or renewal of a pilot's licence or the inclusion or variation of any rating in a pilot's licence within the United Kingdom, the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man, without being the holder of an appropriate licence granted or rendered valid under this Order, if the conditions in paragraph (2) are satisfied.

So surely you can either still do solo, or you can do neither - it makes no sense that you'd be able to do dual but not solo given the wording for both the above paragraphs is almost identical?

[Ryan5252]

One cannot exercise the privileges of the licence until they physically hold it. It must be signed in ink by the holder to be valid. Therefore, you cannot carry passengers.You can however complete as much solo flights as you like between skills test and licence receipt. You would be flying the same way as when a student i.e. under your Flight Instructors supervision/permission. You cannot fly solo unless it is for an additional licence / rating - this is overcome by the fact you need 150 hours P1 before enrolling on a CPL course (assuming modular), such hours logged would count toward that rating. So if it is not your intent to obtain a CPL after PPL just don't tell that to the CAA in case of an event that will never happen; they ask why you logged P1 hours between skills test and licence validity date.

At least that is my interpretation of the red tape.

EDIT: Just to add further to my earlier post in this topic, NATS have now sent me my password for AFPEx and the below might be interest to some people;

From their email:
...In addition, we are developing an online Computer Based Training (CBT) package. This is currently in a mature draft form so we welcome feedback, suggestions and constructive criticism from you using the form provided on the website. We hope that the CBT will help to provide you with a positive experience of AFPEx.

The site can be accessed by using the following link: User Notice (http://www.myafpex.co.uk/) . We hope to enrich the ‘myafpex’ website with a user originated content area (links, tips on use, etc) that will help you when using the system. Any suggestions for this area are appreciated.

[Katamarino]

So you're suggesting that the CAA cannot trust their examiners to do that? Perhaps they should work on improving that, rather than a moronic situation where a pilot who has PASSED a skills test has fewer flight privileges than one who is still training!

[mrmum]

Stevelup

As you say, the wording of both quotes from the ANO are almost identical, very interesting. If I could get my laptop to open the CAP393 pdf I'd have a good look, but from the quotes it looks like you're maybe right.

Ryan5252

That is indeed a possible way round the restriction, however not everyone is or indeed should allege, they are doing a modular CPL. Should something happen to draw attention during the "solo" flights, you may have to justify your assertation that you were hours building for a CPL. Also it's not necessarily the CAA you'll have to convince, but an insurance company, from my experience they will seize upon any opportunity to not pay a claim.

[screetch]

i passed my skilltest on the 13th of June and they received it the 21st.
I called them each week but they said they would not process it until end of this week. He said it normally takes them 10 days but admitted they are far behind.

checking on the caa website it mentions they are processing ppl applications from 11-14th of June... :uhoh:

[stevelup]

I asked my CFI - he said that solo flying between completion of the course and grant of the licence is OK.

I'd say that ultimately the final word lies with whoever you are doing your training with. You are flying their aircraft on their licence and their insurance - it's up to them whether they let you fly solo whilst you are waiting?

[S-Works]

Of course the worst bit is that your validity dates will be from date of test not date of issue......

[screetch]

yeah I also asked if I can fly solo without actually having the licence in my hand and they agreed. So I will be doign some circuits tomorrow. So i get my 3 take offs and landings and can practice on my landing skills before for the first time ever inviting my girlfriend aboard :)

[Whopity]

This is no longer the case, The ANO has been amended, supervised solo is only legal when for the issue of a licence or rating, once you've applied for a licence, it's dual only or stay on the ground until you have received and signed your PPL.The ANO has not been amended this would have required a Regulatory Impact Assesment, and it has nothing to do with the JAA!

52.—(1) A person may act as pilot in command of an aircraft for the purpose of becoming qualified for the grant or renewal of a pilot’s licence or the inclusion or variation of any rating in a pilot’s licence within the United Kingdom, the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man, without being
the holder of an appropriate licence granted or rendered valid under this Order, if the conditions in paragraph (2) are satisfied.
(2) The conditions referred to in paragraph (1) are that—
(a) the person is at least 16 years of age;
(b) the person is the holder of a valid medical certificate to the effect that the person is fit to act as pilot in command, issued by a person approved by the CAA;
(c) the person complies with any conditions subject to which that medical certificate was issued;
(d) no other person is carried in the aircraft;
(f) the person acts in accordance with instructions given by another person holding a pilot’s licence granted under this Order or a JAA licence, in each case being a licence which includes a flight instructor rating, a flying instructor’s rating or an assistant flying instructor’s rating entitling that other person to give instruction in flying the type of aircraft being flown.Any FI has the discretion to send a person solo if he is over 16 and has a valid medical certificate. The person can only act as a student pilot and could be regarded as receiving continuation training for the SEP. The law is there to stop people from flying solo without a FI being involved not to be bloody minded to people awaiting a licence.

[mrmum]

Whopity

I concede I worded that last post very badly, I mustn't dress up opinion and conjecture as fact or law. I'll consider my words more carefully in future.

What I really should have said is that when I was an AFI and subsequently a junior FI, it was normal practice to be able to authorise and send people on "solo" flights after their GFT while waiting for the CAA to process their PPL. Then a few years ago, a "senior" FE who had just conducted a successful LST for a student at my club, said it was not legal to do that anymore. The JAA had come into being in that time and he inferred that was when things had changed, admittedly, I've never bothered to find an old copy of the ANO to check.

However, I stand by the point I was trying to make that once you've passed the LST, your PPL course must be complete, therefore the ANO article 52 exemption (below, sorry haven't figured out how to do quotes) to having an appropriate licence, does not apply, because you are no longer acting as PiC for the purpose of becoming qualified for the grant or renewal of a Pilot's licence or rating. Except of course you are doing a night qualification, or just possibly, building PiC time for a modular CPL.


Flight crew licence requirement – Exception for solo flying training
52.—(1) A person may act as pilot in command of an aircraft for the purpose of becoming qualified for the grant or renewal of a pilot’s licence or the inclusion or variation of any rating in a pilot’s licence within the United Kingdom, the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man, without being the holder of an appropriate licence granted or rendered valid under this Order, if the conditions in paragraph (2) are satisfied.
(2) The conditions referred to in paragraph (1) are that—
(a)the person is at least 16 years of age;
(b)the person is the holder of a valid medical certificate to the effect that the person is fit to act as pilot in command, issued by a person approved by the CAA;
(c)the person complies with any conditions subject to which that medical certificate was issued;
(d)no other person is carried in the aircraft;
(e)the aircraft is not flying for the purpose of commercial air transport, public transport or aerial work other than aerial work which consists of the giving of instruction in flying or the conducting of flying tests; and
(f)the person acts in accordance with instructions given by another person holding a pilot’s licence granted under this Order or a JAA licence, in each case being a licence which includes a flight instructor rating, a flying instructor’s rating or an assistant flying instructor’s rating entitling that other person to give instruction in flying the type of aircraft being flown.


So, no any FI cannot just send anyone over 16 with a medical solo whenever they feel like it, they have to satisfy the paragraph (1) criteria as well as paragraph (2). While I agree with your last sentence, that the intent of the law is not to be awkward with people in limbo between LST and PPL issue, that is what's been written. It wouldn't be the first time we've ended up with not quite the leglislation that was intended.

[Whopity]

Any flying you do with an instructor is for the purpose of obtaining or re-validating a licence or rating; otherwise you don't need an instructor! Art 52 is there to stop people flying solo without a licence but lists an exception with regard to training. It does not say that you cannot do further training if you have applied for a licence. The licence will be dated from the date you passed the skill test and it is not unreasonable to do consolidation (revalidation or differences) training whilst you are waiting. An instructor is entitled to send solo any student they deem suitable i.e. they comply with Par 1, provided they hold a valid medical certificate and act under the instructor's authorisation. If the pilot wanted to fly off and visit his mate at the other end of the country, an instructor would probably not deem that as training and would not authorise the flight.

JAR-FCL was blamed for many things but very little of it was ever transformed into UK Law.

[SlipSlider]

Any flying you do with an instructor is for the purpose of obtaining or re-validating a licence or rating; otherwise you don't need an instructor!

Perhaps being picky, but not entirely true, surely? ... eg having an instructor aboard for 3 t/offs and landings if out of 90 days currency for carrying passengers. Licence and rating would still be current (i.e. you could do the necessary solo) so not re-validating, and if you want company it can only be provided by an instructor, not a vanilla PPL.

[mrmum]

Any flying you do with an instructor is for the purpose of obtaining or re-validating a licence or rating

I would disagree with that statement. If you've just passed the LST for a JAA PPL(A), then your licence will be valid for 5 years and your SEP(L) rating for 2 years. Any flying you do in the first year is irrelevant for revalidation purposes, so if you do 10 hours of dual with a FI just for hand-holding or club currency purposes, that doesn't meet the criteria.

It does not say that you cannot do further training if you have applied for a licence.

Quite correct, I agree. As long as that training is for the purpose of becoming qualified for the grant or renewal of a licence or rating. So therefore, not just some general flying to keep current.

it is not unreasonable to do consolidation (revalidation or differences) training whilst you are waiting.

If it's differences training, then yes, my interpretation would be that's okay as it's a variation of a rating. However I still can't see how you are interpreting consolidation/currency flying as meeting the criteria for the exemption to apply.

It seems to me that we are both reading the same couple of lines in the ANO, but interpreting it differently, so perhaps we'll just have to accept we disagree. I do though totally agree with you that it's reasonable, sensible even to let people keep flying while waiting for the CAA to process their application. I just don't think it's legal unfortunately! I would also accept that plenty of people share your opinion, judging by some of the earlier posts, stating their RFs/FTOs/FIs let them fly during the period in question.

[glorygal]

I passed my skills test and sent off my licence application and it took 3.5 weeks to come back. :mad:

I have continued to fly while waiting for my licence, but yes I am still technically a "student" as I don't have the piece of paper to prove otherwise so I have to pay an instructor £40 an hour to "supervise" me when I disappear xc and cannot carry passengers... I'm sure I don't remember it being this way when I got my driving licence but it was so long ago that I can't remember. :O

[BillieBob]

I would also accept that plenty of people share your opinionIncluding the CAA which, when push comes to shove, is the only opinion that counts.

[Airbusboy]

Hello Every one. Couldn't find enough replies to confirm this.

My instructor was saying that once all the paper work is ready from my end to apply for the PPL licence I can physically take it all to the CAA Gatwick? Is that correct? Is that the same place where they do Initial Class 1 medicals?

Also would this speed up the whole 2-4 weeks process? And once it was ready could I collect it my self?

[stevelup]

You can drop and collect. No-one really knows if it saves any time - I imagine it shaves off at least a handful of days.

I dropped mine off and got it back exactly three weeks later.

One of the advantages of dropping it off is that they check everything except the logbook there and then at the counter - so if anything is missing or any mistakes have been made, they will pick up on it straight away.

[Whopity]

I would disagree with that statement. If you've just passed the LST for a JAA PPL(A), then your licence will be valid for 5 years and your SEP(L) rating for 2 years. Until you have the licence in your hand and you have signed it, its not valid for anything! If you wish to remain current or gain addituonal experience outside the legal minima, then there is no reason why this should not be deemed as training for the purpose of obtaining or re-validating a licence or rating. If you don't directly use it for that purpose it matters not, the point is you legally can do if you so wish!

[Halfbaked_Boy]

Perhaps being picky, but not entirely true, surely? ... eg having an instructor aboard for 3 t/offs and landings if out of 90 days currency for carrying passengers. Licence and rating would still be current (i.e. you could do the necessary solo) so not re-validating, and if you want company it can only be provided by an instructor, not a vanilla PPL.

You do not need an instructor for this.

[T18]

Hi All,

This has been an interesting debate, my friend has finally recieved the covetted licence, the CAA performed well and kept him in the loop. However the downside was that his flight school took three and a half weeks to send the paperwork to the CAA, meaning that he was unable to use the privelages of the licence while on holiday.

So well done CAA, not so well done flight school after he has shelled out nearly £10k.

T18

[Redbird72]

Why did he leave his school to send it off, I thought is was the applicants responsibility to do it?

My school checked my forms to ensure all the information was present and correct, and then I sent it off the next day (after scanning my log book in case the Royal Mail destroyed it!).

[mykul10]

1) Driving Licence - its a different story - when I did my test many centuries ago, I was able to rip off L plates and drive home from the test centre. I think same still applies.

2) Licence valid from...? Be careful here. The SEP rating is valid 24 months from date of test. PPL licence is valid for 5 years from date of issue - look at both and you'll see.I have known people with a lapsed SEP because they assumed 24 months from date of licence issue.

This means that the time lapsed during application and issue of the PPL is "lost" as far as SEP goes.

3) I had always thought that there was ho problem in allowing pilots awaiting issue of PPL to continue as Student. Will have to rethink now

[I Love Flying]

I passed my Skills Test in April (yay!) :) and on the next working day I hand-delivered my paperwork to the CAA at Gatwick (after the flying club 'chief' had checked everything was in order first).

I was quoted a lead time of three weeks and exactly three weeks to the day I received a phone call to say that I could collect my shiny new licence!

Whilst I was waiting for the licence to arrive, I asked if I could fly solo, and I was told by my club that I could, as I would be flying on my instructor's licence still.

Hope this helps.

[Pakouwi]

That's exactly what they should do over here in the UK, same as in France once you pass your driving test

[worrab]

Congratulations on thread resurrection.

That's exactly what they should do over here in the UK

Are you referring to flying solo post skill-test and pre licence arrival? You can fly solo - but only with the say-so of a flying instructor who must authorise your flight.

You may only carry passengers if the instructor is in the plane with you.

[BillieBob]

....as I would be flying on my instructor's licence still.It's time this ridiculous misconception was stamped out. A student is never "flying on his instructor's licence"; he is flying under the terms of the ANO (Article 50(2)) and the EASA Aircrew Regulation that permit a person to act as PIC of an aircraft without holding a valid licence if under training. Nothing that a solo student might do, up to and including a blatant breach of the regulations, will have any effect on the instructor's licence.