What happened to the 2X EFATO thread ? [Archive]

mad_jock

2nd Jul 2010, 08:46

The turn back has always been a regular discussion. One of the best sensible discussions I heard was at an Instructor seminar by on track.

Points brought up.

1. RAF used to train the turn back but had more aircraft lost due to training for it than actually it saved. This was with highly experenced QFI's instructing.

2. The height which you can turn back successfully is related to aircraft performance.

What a super cub can get away with is completely different to say your average flying school heap.

And some of the motor glider types it was said from 500ft they could do a full circuit.

3. There are many variables which will alter at what height you will be successful from.

4. Luck plays a huge factor.

Now personally if the donk fails the aircraft has now become the property of the insurance company. The air frame is disposable, I will use it in any manner that will minimise any damage to the soft bits of meat that it contains. Personally I wouldn't consider turning back as an option until I had started turning crosswind.

As with all emergency's if you have a cunning plan of what you would do things generally are more successful if you stick to it. So if you have planned to always go straight ahead and possibly where you have the best fields you will 99% of the time have a better outcome than if you make something up on the fly.

Ryan5252

2nd Jul 2010, 09:47

The thread was deleted by the guy who started it, not the mods; no reason was given.

The reason would likely be because the OP realised he had dug himself into a hole by and story was changing. I.e the first post stated the pilot returned to the field and landed facing the direction of oncoming an aircraft which later became a 360 turn facing the direction of takeoff. Another sciolist in the midst.

bingofuel

2nd Jul 2010, 14:13

Mad Jock's comment

"The air frame is disposable, I will use it in any manner that will minimise any damage to the soft bits of meat that it contains."

Sums it up very well. You are descending, and all you can do is endeavour to maintain control and aim for the bit of the surface that will cause you the least injury, damge to the aircraft is not a primary concern.

Big Pistons Forever

2nd Jul 2010, 17:27

I insist all my students verbalize a pre takeoff brief whaich goes as follows C150/152/172

In the event of an engine failure/fire before lift off I will

-close the throttle
-apply max braking
-raise the flaps
-advise ATC
-complete emergency checklist

In the event of a an engine failure/fire after lift off I will
-lower the nose to the gliding attitude
-If below 1000ft AGL glide straight ahead only turning to avoid major obstacles. If I am allready on crosswind consider turning towards the airport (not runway, just the nearest unobstructed level area)
-fuel off
-mixture ICO
-mags off
-advise ATC
-master off after flap deployment

The checks are done as a flow which starts at the fuel selector and makes a counter clockwise around the panel.

When verbalizing the checks I get them to lightly touch each control in order to build muscle memory. IMO your only hope in surviving this kind of emergency is to have automatic reactions that have been cemented in the brain by consistantly repeating them prior to every takeoff.

BEagle

2nd Jul 2010, 18:55

You really make people trot out all that load of cr@p before each take-off?

In the event of an engine failure/fire before lift off I will:
*
*
*
*
-complete emergency checklist

Bolleaux. It's "STOP, switches off, get out, then f*** off upwind!" Titting about with raising flaps or stamping on the brakes and bursting the tyres won't help if there's a fire licking around your ankles.

Not sure that it would EVER be of much use, in fact.

FFS - KISS!!

B2N2

2nd Jul 2010, 20:19

You really make people trot out all that load of cr@p before each take-off?
Yes I do. And they will fail a stage check/end-of-course if they don't.
Remember these are students that need to learn, once you're experienced enough you can run a mental checklist.
But only because you have said it out loud enough times.

BEagle

2nd Jul 2010, 20:32

Why? A single engined spamcan is hardly an airliner.

Who on earth talks about "Completing the emergency checklist" if there's a damn big bang and fire starts licking around your feet at 45 knots?

Or is this some dumb thing you have to spout to keep your ambulance-chasing lawyers at bay?

If they'd known about such turgid nonsense, Orville and Wilbur would probably have stuck to fixing bikes.

Big Pistons Forever

2nd Jul 2010, 21:16

Beagle

I aspire to teaching all my students good operating techniques that apply to all airplanes not just "single engine spamcans". Part of that is when appropriate to the circumstances utilize an emergency checklist to verify you have not missed anything and then complete any remaining items. So for example if the engine failed on the takeoff run I would expect the student to execute the flow by memory and then when the airplane had stopped to go to the emergency checklist and complete the remaining items.That is how professional pilots in large aircraft do it. I see no reason why it should be
any different for PPL's. With respect to an engine fire on takeoff, stopping the aircraft is the priority and the memory items will cause that to happen.... at that stage vacating the passengers and then the pilot is the only additional item and is so obvious that it is not written down anywhere. Since this is a engine failure procedure as well as engine fire drill all of the emergency checks relate to the failure scenario.

My experience is if you ask the average PPL who is one year (or even a few months) after their PPL flight test "what would you do if the engine failed at 500 ft after takeoff ?", you would get a long pause with lots of umms and errrs. Pilots are not born being ready to deal with an EFATO, it has to be taught, and cramming before the flight test may get you through the ride but it will not do much to prepare you for the rest of your flying career. Taking one minute to brief and then practice the actions before every takeoff on every one of your PPL training flights will burn the actions into your brain forever.

However I like to think that my students are the least likely to actually have to deal with the EFATO scenario because I teach them to pay attention to what really matters on the walk around, teach real world fuel planning, and how to do a proper run up including understanding what the engine is actually telling you as well as ensuring the engine is delivering full static RPM at the beginning of the takeoff run..... or in other words eliminate the pilot induced engine failures caused by ignorance or "It is only a spamcan" hubris

Ryan5252

2nd Jul 2010, 21:31

With respect to an engine fire on takeoff, stopping the aircraft is the priority and the memory items will cause that to happen.As opposed to what? Are you suggesting that without being taught to stop one is likely continue with the flight??

My experience is if you ask the average PPL who is one year (or even a few months) after their PPL flight test "what would you do if the engine failed at 500 ft after takeoff ?", you would get a long pause with lots of umms and errrs.You would indeed, I can give you the usual rant; nose down, identify a suitable landing area straight ahead, or 30 degrees left/right, NEVER TURN BACK etc. but this is the general principle, not the gospel. If you asked me the question, and I hmm'd and err'd the reason would likely to be i'm considering the scenario not that I don't have a clue!

The checklist is all well and good and should be followed where possible, but there is alot to be said for the fight or flight instinct - our own mental checklist for survival which we do not need to be taught: "The sh** has hit the fan, lets get the f*** out of this death bucket double quick!

Simples.

Big Pistons Forever

2nd Jul 2010, 23:28

Ryan 5252

If you substitute "confirm Beta lights" for "mixture ICO" and omit flaps, the flow of engine failure on the runway drill (before V1) is the same as for the transport catagory turbo-prop I fly for my day job. We brief before every takeoff so it becomes automatic. This is standard practice for every reputable operator flying large aircraft. One of the reasons professional pilots have a much lower accident rate than private flyers is because the industry has moved from ad hoc undisciplined flying styles to systematic approach that realizes humans do not think well under the sudden pressure of shocking unexpected events. Therefore preplanned and practiced actions help overcome event peralysis and make sure actions which seem obvious when sitting down at the computer, actually occur when the shyte hits the fan. A simple example of this is doing an on the runway simulated EFATO off a short field takeoffexercise. The first time the student always forgets to raise the flaps. This is because the student is mentally thinking short field take off, where the last thing you are going to do is raise the flaps on the runway. Yet if it is actually a short field getting the flaps up afer the failure, so you can get maximum braking may be the diference between stopping on the runway or going off into the ditch, particularly for low wing types.
I have found this an exallent example of demonstrating in a practicle way to the student how easy it is to forget obvious items in unexpected scenarios.

Frankly we lightplane pilots and instructors should be ashamed at the accident record of light aircraft. I personally think that a more disciplined approach is better than a "I know I will do the right thing when the bad event happens" that many light aircraft flyers use. I also strongly believe "professional" habits can be inculcated from the very beginning of training. Not "look at me I am so professional" flashery but an ordered methodical consistant efficent way to operate the aircraft in every segment of the flight.

You wrote

The checklist is all well and good and should be followed where possible, but there is alot to be said for the fight or flight instinct - our own mental checklist for survival which we do not need to be taught: "The sh** has hit the fan, lets the f*** out of this death bucket double quick!

I think you have adequately covered the .01 % incidents were the aircraft is engulfed in flame before it has even stopped. Unfortunately the accident statistics say the "lets get out of the death bucket double quick" flight response to low altitude EFATO's is to turn back to the comfort of that runway often with tragic results....

I you feel the need to further mock me, go ahead I do not care as I have explained my position and do not see any point in further comment.

Good Day

BPF

Ryan5252

3rd Jul 2010, 00:02

BPF,

Apologies if you felt my post was a mockery as it was certainly not intended in that way. Rather, with due respect to you (and others on here) with significantly more experience than myself, I wanted to put my point across as I see yet - being a new PPL. As a new PPL, I felt compled to respond when you said My experience is if you ask the average PPL who is one year (or even a few months) after their PPL flight test "what would you do if the engine failed at 500 ft after takeoff ?", you would get a long pause with lots of umms and errrs. . I have the utmost respect for all instructors out there who are not hour building, as lets face it; they're not here for the money - but for the passion. Therefore, I have no intention of arguing a point with any, either here or at the airport. (That's not to say I won't do so in 10 years time however :ok:)

What I wanted to clear up was that you cannot ask a person a question and then moan about their lack of response or attribute this to a lack of knowledge as this is what I took, rightly or wrongly, from your comment quoted above. I agree entirely with following the checklist and please do not think I would ever disregard one.

However I like to think that my students are the least likely to actually have to deal with the EFATO scenario because I teach them to pay attention to what really matters on the walk around, teach real world fuel planning, and how to do a proper run up including understanding what the engine is actually telling you as well as ensuring the engine is delivering full static RPM at the beginning of the takeoff run..... or in other words eliminate the pilot induced engine failures caused by ignorance or "It is only a spamcan" hubris I am a keen pilot and a dedicated student (I say student because I am, like everyone else, still learning). I pay close attention to all aspects of my flight, before, during and after. I pay particular attention to the cause and effect of my actions and I am constantly looking at ways to improve and further this knowledge. Therefore I regret to say that 'your' students are not alone in being the 'least likely to actually have to deal with an EFATO" - it can happen to anyone and I for one also pay attention to what my aircraft is telling me not only during the power checks, but all the way down the runway too!

I flew yesterday afternoon in the clubs PA28 - just myself and 3 year old son on board. I can tell you know, if the engine stopped on the runway I'd be stopping the role in my own manner before looking for a checklist. (I would also vacate the aircraft and get him to a safe distance before securing the cabin and performing checklist items per the POH) Equally, in the event of an EFATO I would hope to god my training kicks in and I would do as I was taught, but to be honest, my priority is getting back on the ground in one piece and I will use whatever is available to me at the time to do so.

I you feel the need to further mock me, go ahead I do not care as I have explained my position and do not see any point in further comment.Again, I do apologize if you felt my post was in anyway derogatory toward you as this was not my intent, but I do feel its only fair to be able to respond to your comments in a constructive way.

Regards,
Ryan.

EDIT: I should probably take the time to realise that I am not posting in the Private Flying forum, but rather the Instructor section, so I should probably take less heed when instructors talk about students, new PPLs etc. Well, I live and learn...

Chuck Ellsworth

3rd Jul 2010, 02:04

One of the reasons professional pilots have a much lower accident rate than private flyers is because the industry has moved from ad hoc undisciplined flying styles to systematic approach that realizes humans do not think well under the sudden pressure of shocking unexpected events.

When did the industry move from an ad hoc undisciplined flying style, to this systematic approach?

Big Pistons Forever

3rd Jul 2010, 06:08

Ryan 5252

You said "What I wanted to clear up was that you cannot ask a person a question and then moan about their lack of response or attribute this to a lack of knowledge."

Actually I think I can. My feeling is for low hour pilots if the vital actions are not burned into the brain than they are unlikely to be actioned when the pressure is on. My personal experience is most PPL's have significant skill and knowledge fade after the flight test. I do not find this surprising as emergency procedures that are not regularly reviewed will fade.

You said "I am a keen pilot and a dedicated student (I say student because I am, like everyone else, still learning). I pay close attention to all aspects of my flight, before, during and after. I pay particular attention to the cause and effect of my actions and I am constantly looking at ways to improve and further this knowledge. Therefore I regret to say that 'your' students are not alone in being the 'least likely to actually have to deal with an EFATO" - it can happen to anyone and I for one also pay attention to what my aircraft is telling me not only during the power checks, but all the way down the runway too!"

So just what are you looking for in "power checks" ?

I am also curious as to what objective methods you use to determine what you describe in the part highlighted by me in red. Is it just "well it feels right" , or are you using some objective criteria like checking that the engine is actually making the POH minimum static RPM at the beginning of the takeoff roll and having a predetermined idea of a physical point down the runway where the aircraft should have attained rotation speed. Because if it is not based on soem objective criteria you are IMO fooling yourself

My experience with low houred PPL's is that their ability to make qualitative judgements on the performance or lack there of, was not very good due to their general lack of experience. You seem to think otherwise..... I hope for your sake you are right.

You said: "I flew yesterday afternoon in the clubs PA28 - just myself and 3 year old son on board. I can tell you know, if the engine stopped on the runway I'd be stopping the role in my own manner before looking for a checklist. (I would also vacate the aircraft and get him to a safe distance before securing the cabin and performing checklist items per the POH) Equally, in the event of an EFATO I would hope to god my training kicks in and I would do as I was taught, but to be honest, my priority is getting back on the ground in one piece and I will use whatever is available to me at the time to do so."

So the airplane is say accelerating through 40 knots and the engine just stops, no warning , no indication of fire, just sudden silence. Fom the above I gather you are going to stomp on the brakes and then just going to jump out of the aircraft and run around to the passenger side to unstrap your son while leaving the fuel and all electrics on, run away from the aircraft and then presumably leave your 3 yr old child unattended by the side of the runway while you return to the aircraft to "secure the cabin and perform the checklist items per the POH ".......

I would suggest a better way is to retard the throttle to idle and pull the mixture to ICO so there is no possibility the engine will suddenly roar back at full power as you are trying to brake (a possibilty with some failure modes), raise the flaps so that you are assured of maximim braking effectiveness, advise ATC so that the aircraft that is on final behind you knows that the runway is blocked and once having completed the above memory items while slowing down take 20 seconds after the aircraft has stopped to action the checklist which basically gets the aircraft systems shut down greatly reducing the possibility of a fire starting, and then get out of the aircraft and wait for help. Or in other words automatically followed the actions which you had mentally rehersed prior to takeoff and which will always effectively give you the starting point to deal with the EFATO emergency

You said: "Again, I do apologize if you felt my post was in anyway derogatory toward you as this was not my intent, but I do feel its only fair to be able to respond to your comments in a constructive way."

Frankly I did not find your comment in an earlier post

Quote Are you suggesting that without being taught to stop one is likely continue with the flight?? unquote ...very constructive.

Biggles78

3rd Jul 2010, 07:04

I just loved having an EFATO pulled on me. Apart from the first one I was never warned about them in advance. One trick I used to learn the drills/checklist and keep proficient with them was each time I stopped at a red light (in a car/automobile of course) was to run through the engine failure checklist.

Checklists are good if you can memorise them which really isn't that hard with a little bit of work. I once wrote down all the checked items from prestart, post start, taxi, run-up, T/O, climb-out, crosswind turn, downwind, base, finals, land, pre-shutdown & post shutdown (should have just said circuit eh) and it added up to something like 112 items. This is some 30 years ago and I still remember at least 110 of them.

I was watching a Youtube video of a guy taking his mate for a ride in a PA28 and I was shocked to see him doing the pre-start checked by reading them from a written checklist. EIGHT items (from my list) and he needed a written checklist and this was after he poured the fuel test liquid back INTO the fuel tank.

:uhoh: Sorry, went offtopic. I personally knew an Instructor (with a student) who experienced an engine failure at 800' on T/O (straight climbout to the training area) in the trainer "Designed by 10,000 Flight Instructors" (for you young 'uns, the PA38 ). He did a 180° turn and landed back on the runway. Having a 12,000' runway helped but he did say he lost about 500' in completing the turn. That could so easily turn into an uncontrolled spiral for an inexperienced pilot.

IMO your only hope in surviving this kind of emergency is to have automatic reactions that have been cemented in the brain by consistantly repeating them prior to every takeoff.
Totally 120% agree with you on the above quote.
.
.
.

BEagle

3rd Jul 2010, 07:24

BPF, you said that in a C152 you would expect the student to close the throttle, apply max braking and raise the flaps if there was an engine fire before 'lift off' as well as 'completing the emergency checklist'?

Sorry, but how is that 'appropriate to the circumstances'? Without an anti-skid system, which presumably your commuter turboprop has, why would 'max' braking help? Have your students ever practised applying 'max' braking just before lift off without locking the tyres and flat-spotting or bursting them? Why 'raise the flaps' - is that really going to help? It might in a PA28, but purely because the flap lever would then be on the floor and wouldn't impede egress. The tiny amount of extra weight on the tyres will make very little difference and will just make stopping more complicated than it needs to be.

As regards transferring 'big aircraft' philosophy to spamcans, when I was the Chief Instructor at a local club, we went through a process of throwing out much of the dogma which our resident 4-engine transport jet pilots had inflicted and instead focused purely on POH-mandated items. An 'abort brief' for the jet transport was wholly inappropriate for a PA28.

It made things a lot easier to teach people to fly the thing the way Mr Piper intended.

Ryan5252

3rd Jul 2010, 07:47

In the event I encounter an engine during or after take off, I hope everything goes to plan. In which case you will be the first the know.

So the airplane is say accelerating through 40 knots and the engine just stops, no warning , no indication of fire, just sudden silence. Fom the above I gather you are going to stomp on the brakes and then just going to jump out of the aircraft and run around to the passenger side to unstrap your son while leaving the fuel and all electrics on, run away from the aircraft and then presumably leave your 3 yr old child unattended by the side of the runway while you return to the aircraft to "secure the cabin and perform the checklist items per the POH ".......

Oh pull your head out of your backside will you?
:ugh::ugh::ugh:

BEagle

3rd Jul 2010, 09:14

A bit harsh there, Ryan? But only a bit as I understand your sentiment!

Faffing about with flaps below the stalling speed is pointless. 'Securing the cabin and performing the POH checklist items' when there's a raging fire? Oh purrleeeze!

"What was your husband doing when the aircraft exploded?"
"I don't know, but they found his dead fingers clutching a nice FAA-approved checklist...:uhoh:"
"Why didn't he just run away?"
"Some idiot told him he had to waste 20 seconds 'securing the cabin and performing the POH checklist items' first - unfortunately 19 seconds after he stopped the aircraft blew up"

The drill is easy to remember (for a fire, which will NOT always be the same as for a failure):

STOP (Even the dullest person realises that you will need to close the throttle, then brake and steer to a safe halt, surely?).
Ignition off
Switches off
F*** off (and I don't mean fuel - I mean unstrap, get out and run bravely away upwind!)

No mention of fuel off? Why? Because it can be very difficult to turn the main fuel cock off, particularly in the PA28 with that difficult latch to move first - or in a C150/152 if the cock is very stiff :ooh: (to turn)... Aeroplanes can be replaced, people cannot.

K.I.S.S!!

Ryan5252

3rd Jul 2010, 14:39

Perhaps a touch harsh I admit, but 'tis frustrating when one agree's to disagree (to each their own), but some people just can't accept that others differ in their opinion. Pointless wasting energy on such trivial matters.

run away from the aircraft and then presumably leave your 3 yr old child unattended by the side of the runway while you return to the aircraft to "secure the cabin and perform the checklist items per the POH ".......

Indeed I would leave him unattended by the side of the runway than stapped into an aircraft I don't trust laden with fuel.

ifitaintboeing

3rd Jul 2010, 15:50

How about?

SECURE FLOW

M ixture ......ICO
M agnetos...OFF
M aster........OFF Ensures that the electric fuel pump is turned off
F uel............AS REQD OFF will ensure that more fuel does not pass through the firewall.

I do it every time I get out of a SEP/MEP aircraft to ensure that the aircraft is secure. It is also an expeditious, well practised flow, to secure the aircraft in the event of an emergency. Takes about 2 seconds. Simple & effective.

The fuel will depend on aircraft type, for similar reasons to BEagle; but to expand, in an emergency you should know and have practised how to operate this quickly. I wouldn't spend ages trying to sort it out though!

Skittles

3rd Jul 2010, 20:17

Does 10 degrees of flap have any real effect on braking efficacy? Assuming you're braking heavily surely by the time you've reached the flap lever and got it up you wouldn't be going fast enough for it to make the slightest difference? Not in a C150 or similiar, I'd imagine.

I think that in the time it takes for me to clean up the 10 degrees of flap, I could have leaned the mixture, closed the throttle, fuel cock off, masters off etc etc.

Pressurised fuel + fire is something I want to be around for the least time possible.

Chuck Ellsworth

3rd Jul 2010, 21:11

I try and refrain from reading this stuff BEagle but it is like driving by a wreck on the highway, I just can't seem to keep from looking.

Flying light aircraft is not as complex as flying large commercial aircraft and pretending that it is will only load the small airplane pilot up with stuff they really don't need to do.

Which does nothing to ensure safety.

Big Pistons Forever

4th Jul 2010, 02:19

I guess I am a bit mystified why this thread has become fixated on the least likely EFATO scenario that is the engine suddenly explodes and bursts into intense flame as the aircraft is acclerating down the runway. In fact I have never seen a documented case where this has happend in a simple Piper/Cessna trainer/tourer. However plenty of airplanes have experienced an engine failure while takeoff and many have ended badly. If I gave the impression that in the case of the front of the airplane is suddenly engulfed in flame than you want to stop as fast as possible and get out of the airplane than that was not my intent, although I still believe the fastest surest way to stop the aircraft during the takeoff run is to follow the steps I detailed earlier. But the reality is that the engine failure on the runway emergency will turn out OK if you stop the aircraft on the remaining runway. I think that there is a "best" way to do this and I feel it is sensible to secure the fuel and electrics before vacating an aircraft which as I clearly stated above showed no indication it was on fire.

Ultimately though I do not see this as the real issue. Human factors research clearly shows human being do not do well when suddenly presented with a unexpected shocking danger. The killer in EFATO's is not pilots being burned to a crisp on the runway because they delayed exiting the aircraft in order to accomplish a 20 sec long system securing checklist, it is crashing in uncontrolled flight after the engine fails at low altitude, often as result of failing to quickly adopt the gliding attitude, and/or loosing control attempting a low altitude turnback. The accident record provides unequivical evidence of how poorly PPL's do when unexpected EFATO scenario. I believe the average low time pilot is more likely to better handle this emergency if he/or she spent a minuite reviewing the actions they will take before every takeoff. This will put the actions to the front of the brain.

I would also like to point out that IMO the EFATO emergency is the only really crtical emergency for light plane pilots because instant correct action is required. Pretty much all the other potential emergencies will give you enough time to think before doing and IMO starting with the emergency checklist is usually the best way to address a problem which develops during cruise flight. The EFATO brief is the only emergency brief I teach to light aircraft students.

Finally I would like to comment on the idea that "big aircraft" procedures have no place in light aircraft flight training. I could not disagree more as the evolution in professional operations is to reduce traditional read then do checklist to the minumum. I follow the same philosophy using my own checklists which start with a system of flows which follow the same consistant pattern and are where appropriate are backed up by "checking" the checklist and with all of the stupid flight schoolism's removed (for example my checklist does not tell the student to release the key when the engine starts, like one school I know :rolleyes:). So for example my prelanding checklist has only 4 items

Fuel-------------Selector valve correctly position/quantity checked
Mixture----------Full rich
Brakes-----------Checked
Carb Heat------ as required

Rather than rejecting "proffessional pilot" methodoligies I think they should be examined and where appropriate to the aircraft and operation, be applied at the ab intio training level

Bottom line: Every airline thinks there is value in the 5,000 to 20,000 hr captain and the very highly trained first officer review the critical actions for a takeoff emergency....so why would there not be value for the new PPL to do the same thing ?

Big Pistons Forever

4th Jul 2010, 02:25

Ryan 5252

You seem to take great exception to my description of what you would do for an engine failure and as I clearly stated with no indications of fire

" So the airplane is say accelerating through 40 knots and the engine just stops, no warning , no indication of fire, just sudden silence. Fom the above I gather you are going to stomp on the brakes and then just going to jump out of the aircraft and run around to the passenger side to unstrap your son while leaving the fuel and all electrics on, run away from the aircraft and then presumably leave your 3 yr old child unattended by the side of the runway while you return to the aircraft to "secure the cabin and perform the checklist items per the POH "......."

This was based on your description of what you said you would do
in post No 16. So what part did I get wrong ?

hoggsnortrupert

4th Jul 2010, 02:38

I am not a flight instructor:

Having had the experience first hand, is one I will never forget, even now after quite some years: Even after a very significant period of time, it can still cause me some restlessness:

I agree that training is the best tool, in our case, the check list was not used, neither where the pax briefed, there just was not the time, they saw it for them selves anyway. (fire in the cockpit):

A passenger from the back was standing between us in the cockpit door way,(no door) using the extinguisher when the wheels hit the tarmac!

With training in mind, I believe it gave me the ability to use my discretion, which in our case was getting it on the ground in one piece, max reverse and max braking, fuel levers off, battery & master off and I bailed, the F/o and pax beat me out of the aircraft and I did not dawdle or second guess anything.

I came a distant second/third to 20 passengers & a F/o.

So from experience, I say training most definitely, but you dont know what type of emergency, or its severity/ or even when/ it is going to happen, it is a very fluid situation, and is dependent on many many variables:

In our case the situational timing and airborne positioning couldn't have been better:

Our choices was the Pacific Ocean beneath or the Airport 3.5 miles behind the right wing in the 4.30 position!

In summery:
YOU do not know what YOU will do, only what you HOPE you will do, to me it is do no harm to my passengers, if this means taking a short cut and using my discretion in something that has confronted me as the above did! then I agree with ????'s sentiment above, I will not be recovered with a burnt checklist in my blackened hand.

Touch wood! heres to becoming an OLD PILOT:

Chr's
H/Snort.:ok:

Big Pistons Forever

4th Jul 2010, 03:12

hogsnortrupert

You appear to have been flying a airline Turbo prop which implies significant flying experience. Sounds like you utilized that experince and a cool head to deal with a very difficult situation. But I would suggest if you had encountered the same situation as a 150hr PPL iyou would not have been as well prepared to know what shortcuts to take and how to use your discretion
to change/ignore the published emergency procedures. That is the challenge of flight instructors...how to develop the skills/knowledge and reactions that will prepare new pilots to deal with emergencies.

But at the end of the day the best thing you can do when bad things are happening is fly the airplane. I will have succeded as an instructor, not when the student rattles of the memory items, but when he/she utilizes pilot aids like checklist only after they have the aircraft properly under control and it is doing what they want it do.

Chuck Ellsworth

4th Jul 2010, 03:37

I hope you all don't think I am fixated on this issue, but no one has ever explained just when the industry made this magic jump from the days of the ignorant fly by luck pilots to today's well trained pros who are taught all the magic things to do that makes them so superior to the old school pilots of yesteryear.

From a previous post:

One of the reasons professional pilots have a much lower accident rate than private flyers is because the industry has moved from ad hoc undisciplined flying styles to systematic approach that realizes humans do not think well under the sudden pressure of shocking unexpected events.

My question, as yet unanswered:

When did the industry move from an ad hoc undisciplined flying style, to this systematic approach?

I am curious because I wonder if I was flying when this transformation took place, and if I was flying after it took place. Because I really can not remember when or how it happened.

BEagle

4th Jul 2010, 06:29

I insist all my students verbalize a pre takeoff brief which goes as follows C150/152/172

In the event of an engine failure/fire before lift off I will
And yet you then go on to say:I guess I am a bit mystified why this thread has become fixated on the least likely EFATO scenario that is the engine suddenly explodes and bursts into intense flame as the aircraft is acclerating down the runway. In fact I have never seen a documented case where this has happend in a simple Piper/Cessna trainer/tourer.Why inisist on briefing for something which you say has never happened?

Also, an EFATO brief must be relevant for the aircraft/runway/terrain/wind at the time. Mindlessly chanting some generic phrases like a Hare Krishna mantra serves little purpose unless the proposed actions are relevant.

"In the event a meteor strikes the runway in front of me before lift off...."

Big Pistons Forever

4th Jul 2010, 15:24

Beagle

Why do find it necessary to twist my words?
I did not say that engine fires never happen..... I said that "the engine suddenly explodes into a ball of intense flame on the takeoff run" where obviously you just want to get out of the aircraft as quickly as possible, never happens, a scenario that you seem to have a particular fetish for. There have been instances of fires on takeoff in small aircraft, although they are usually electrical, or a burning birds nest, and in every case I am aware of, they went out as soon as everything was shut off. Shutting down the aircraft systems after the aircraft has been brought to a quick stop, strikes me as a sensible thing to do, and can be done quite quickly as it follows the same flow as all the other checks.

In any case the principal point I was trying to make was my belief that the EFATO emergency, particularly the engine failure at low altitude, is a desperate emergency requiring an instant and correct response...... and that I believe that light plane pilots, particularly low time ones, are more likely to do the right things when the sudden, unexpected, shocking, failure occurs, if they have reviewed the drill before the takeoff. This review of critical actions is the norm in professional aviation and I think has utility when applied, appropriate to the type and operation, in the piloting of light aircraft.

It is obvious we are never going to agree so it pointless to continue this thread.

Chuck Ellsworth

4th Jul 2010, 15:36

AAhhh it never fails, I ask when the industry morphed from the old school inept types to the modern day experts and you end the thread. :{

Big Pistons Forever

4th Jul 2010, 17:20

AAhhh it never fails, I ask when the industry morphed from the old school inept types to the modern day experts and you end the thread. :{

I ignored your comment because it had no relavence to the EFATO thread. If you were actually intersted in a dialogue on highlighted point why did you not simply write your thoughts on the issue for comment by myself and others ?

Chuck Ellsworth

4th Jul 2010, 18:13

I ignored your comment because it had no relavence to the EFATO thread. If you were actually intersted in a dialogue on highlighted point why did you not simply write your thoughts on the issue for comment by myself and others ?

When I am trying to have a discourse with people who seem to be very defensive when asked questions I try to phrase my questions in a manner that will tend to not further irritate the person.

You obviously have not read many of my comments on these forums otherwise you would be aware that I do write my thoughts on these subjects.

Apparently there is something about me that just sends you into defensive mode every time I make any comment about your thoughts.

Therefore I will expand on my question to you.

I have been a teacher of flying for over fifty years and have been flying transport category airplanes for over forty years and I can not identify a time where we evolved from an ad hoc undisciplined flying style, to this systematic approach?

All I asked you was to give me a time period when you identified this change in how we flew airplanes.

As to instructing it is my opinion that being a good teacher of the art of flying is the highest level a pilot can aspire to.

With that as one of my goals I retired from aviation as a teacher of advanced flying and was payed very well for my services so therefore the subject is still important to me and I am interested in any belief or facts that other instructors have.

Being in control of ones emotions is a very important characteristic in a pilots makeup and if one gets stressed over comments on an internet forum it may be wise to reflect on why this is happening before you answer Big Pistons Forever.

24Carrot

4th Jul 2010, 19:08

Does 10 degrees of flap have any real effect on braking efficacy? Theoretically, it depends very much on air speed, if we are talking simple SEP.

In very round numbers, reducing flap by 10 degs means reducing angle of attack by 1.6 degs or less (1/2 x 1/3 x 10).

Lift=Weight at stall speed at maybe 20 degs, so 1.6 / 20 x Weight = 8% of weight, and braking friction depends directly on weight. If you are right at stall speed (ie about to take off) then 8% over 0% makes a very big difference.

At 80% of stall speed, (Lift=64% of weight), 1.6 / 20 x 80% = 6.4%, and 6.4% over 36% is a significant fraction, but if you aren't that fast to start with and also as you slow down, it soon becomes irrelevant.

Personally, I feel a pre-flight look at the surrounding fields in google earth is sadly under-recommended.

Otherwise, absolutely no comment on anything anybody else has said. At all. <retiring to shelter>

BEagle

4th Jul 2010, 19:29

Personally, I feel a pre-flight look at the surrounding fields in google earth is sadly under-recommended.

Agree! That's why I said that an EFATO brief must be relevant for the aircraft/runway/terrain/wind at the time.......

BPE - you wrote those words, not me!

mrmum

4th Jul 2010, 21:15

BPF

I think I mostly agree with you, several years ago I worked for a club who were a contractor for the MOD/RAF flying scholarship scheme. For their trainees, CFS insisted we talked through a similar T/O emergencies brief. They always handled simulated EFATO exercises noticeably better than the "civvie" students or PPLs. Now you might say that possibly it was due to a higher quality student, or that they were flying several times a day, most days for a couple of weeks. But maybe, running through the scenario pre-departure actually helps.

As to getting too checklist happy in the air, in my experience, if someone with relatively low hours, gets a simulated engine failure at a couple of hundred feet, it's pretty much all they can do to remember to lower the nose and maintain a safe speed, then try and land it somewhere. Both of which are vital, they rarely have the time/capacity to start distracting themselves looking for switches or telling the tower what's happening. It does of course depend how much height they've got before it happens.

Biggles78

4th Jul 2010, 21:25

Personally, I feel a pre-flight look at the surrounding fields in google earth is sadly under-recommended.
Sorry but I disagree with this. Goggle Earth only give you a birds eye view of the "emergency field" and not that up to date either. In my part of the world some of the maps are from 2004 and the inviting empty field is now a runway of roof tops.

I ask when the industry morphed from the old school inept types to the modern day experts
This is something one cannot put a date on, maybe not even a decade due to everchanging and evolving nature of aviation and Instructing (plus the additional requirements of those who sit in Government offices and think, "Oooo, this would be a good idea to implement"; even if it isn't).

Checklists are important to know, especially the emergency ones. I have never used written a checklist since they were all committed to memory. They had to be since trying to read the proceedure to an EFATO at 500' is going to end up being a disaster. As much as I can remember I gave myself a mental brief as to the conditions and what to do in case of an EFATO but I am embarassed to say that brief never included relaying anything to any passengers. FLWOP did have a passenger brief at the 1,500' point but it never occured to include one before takeoff. Due to this thread that will now change. Thanks BPF.

As to an EFATO pre V1, in a Piper, I would be inclined to raise the flap. As previously stated to make the egress easier and not get caught on the flap handle but also to lock the flaps in place sine someone in a rush to get out is likely to step on the NO STEP sign. If flaps are down then stepping on that area helps you go down as well. Twisted, sprained or broken ankle is not a good thing.

In a Cessna, would the flaps have time to retract before the Master Switch gets turned off? Up would also be good here since there is a chance of a head contacting the down parts and if really unlucky the sharp corner/edge could make a nice gash in a running head.

However if this is a simple failure, engine stops, surges or splutters then is there the need for my imagined panic. I have taken BPF to mean that there was no engine fire on the ground in a pre T/O failure.

A different matter if the failure happens once airborne and a "controlled crash" becomes inevitable. Now the flaps stay down in the Cessna since the Master is (hopefully) off. Piper who knows but depends on the variables like if the U/C is still attached etc.

I hope this thread continues as I for one have learnt at least one thing from this and I hope I can learn more.

24Carrot

4th Jul 2010, 22:30

Quote:
Originally Posted by 24Carrot
Personally, I feel a pre-flight look at the surrounding fields in google earth is sadly under-recommended.
Sorry but I disagree with this...Good point about google earth currency, I guess I was just trying to suggest a bit of prior thought about where to put it down if the donkey fails. I confess to flying two years out of an airfield never wondering why I was supposed to turn right 30 degs after take-off on one runway. A belated look at google earth made it very, very, obvious. Never saw it before, 'cos it was under the nose.

Centaurus

5th Jul 2010, 11:17

in order to build muscle memory.

Careful now. If a flight ops inspector sees that term, next we know it will be added into aviation lexicon like TEM and CRM.. "Muscle memory...Jeez!

BEagle

5th Jul 2010, 12:50

next we know it will be added into aviation lexicon like TEM and CRM..

:eek:

An unbeliever!! Stone him!!

Big Pistons Forever

5th Jul 2010, 16:10

A common defintion of musclel memory is as follows

"Muscle memory, also known as motor learning, is a form of procedural memory that involves consolidating a specific motor task into memory through repetition. When a movement is repeated over time, a long-term muscle memory is created for that task; eventually allowing it to be performed without conscious effort. This process decreases the need for attention and creates maximum efficiency within the motor and memory systems"

Flow checks are a good example of using muscle memory and result in your hand going to the desired place without you having to look and guide it there meaning the eyes can be focused on more important tasks like looking out the windshield. Using muscle memory means that you only have to look at the lever/control/switch when you are actually going to move it (to conform you have the right control and are moving it in the right direction) and that you move automatically through all the required actions in the right order.

You can observe the development of muscle memory in every student, in for example how they get in and start up the aircraft. At the beginning they will be fumbling around in the cockpit going to teh wrong control, repaeating actions eetc but as they practice and get more familiar they will become smoother and more efficent.

In the context of an EFATO, lightly touching the applicable control as the actions are briefed builds muscle memory and as human factors research suggests, makes the action more likely to be correctly carried out. I also do the same thing for simulated emergencies in the air. Instead of just rattling off the memory and/or emergency checklist items I get the student to lightly touch
(but not move ! ) each item as the itemis called out. I find this is particularly valueable for the forced approach exercise. The engine failure drills for the Multi Engine rating are another example. I tell all my students to sit in the airplane on the ramp and practice untill muscle memory makes the actions automatic.

Back to the topic at hand, EFATO. I obviously believe a short brief of the crtitical actions before every takeoff is the best way to ensure a favourable outcome for an EFATO at any stage of the takeoff. Clearly there are posters here who thing I am silly for doing this but like I said we are never going to agree so time to move on.

Specifically with respect to muscle memory if you are not encouraging students practice tasks so that they get better than you are one crappy instructor. So Centaurus and BEagle sorry to break this to you but you have been teaching the use of muscle memory all this time, you were just ignorant as to the term to describe what you were doing ;)

I will make one further comment aimed at low time pilots reading this thread. The incident/accident reports clearly show that light airplanes do not in general have as BEagle said (post #22) " raging fires " with "flames licking at your ankles" (post #10). In fact the first signs of a fire can be quite subtle and usually involve an unusual odour. In the 2 engine fires I am personally aware of, the first indication the pilot of the Cessna 421 knew he had a problem was when the tower told him he was trailing smoke. The second accident involved a PIper PA 31 which had a fire shortly after takeoff. The crew elected to turn back to the departure airport which was only a few minuites away but did not fully secure the engine. The fire burned through the mainspar and the aircraft crashed 400 yards short of the runway killing both pilots. This accident points to the vital importance of shutting down and fully securing the engine at the first confirmed sign of engine fire. I have also researched the accident data base and could not find one case of an engine fire in a light aircraft that did not go out when the engine was secured.

After reviewing this and other threads I have participated in, I seem to be out of tune with the regular posters on this forum as I seem to attract a lot of angry replies, therefore I do not intend to make any further posts on the instructor forum.

BEagle

5th Jul 2010, 18:46

"Muscle memory, also known as motor learning, is a form of procedural memory that involves consolidating a specific motor task into memory through repetition. When a movement is repeated over time, a long-term muscle memory is created for that task; eventually allowing it to be performed without conscious effort. This process decreases the need for attention and creates maximum efficiency within the motor and memory systems"

In other words, you can rely upon being able to wipe your own backside without having to remember how to.....:bored:

Chuck Ellsworth

5th Jul 2010, 21:04

So Centaurus and BEagle sorry to break this to you but you have been teaching the use of muscle memory all this time, you were just ignorant as to the term to describe what you were doing

In spite of being ignorant of the buzz words and acronyms so loved by today's enlightened pilots isn't it interesting how us ignorant ones turned out so many competent well trained pilots?

One of the best bits of advice I can give all the new pilots in training and already licensed is regardless of what the check lists and the memory items have to say if you are faced with an emergency in an airplane the very first thing you do is " NOTHING " make sure you identify what must be done before you act, that should prevent you from doing something stupid fast.

Ryan5252

5th Jul 2010, 23:29

One of the best bits of advice I can give all the new pilots in training and already licensed is regardless of what the check lists and the memory items have to say if you are faced with an emergency in an airplane the very first thing you do is " NOTHING " make sure you identify what must be done before you act, that should prevent you from doing something stupid fast.

If I have learned nothing else from PPRuNe, I will take this away. Of course, I am wise enough to conclude that 'nothing' may only be for a split second to assess the situation, I'll not likely sit back with arms crossed thinking "Well, that's a puzzler!" :)

Thanks Mr.Ellsworth for the advice.

Ryan

Chuck Ellsworth

6th Jul 2010, 00:21

Ryan you have grasped the importance of doing " nothing " by understanding the doing " nothing " phase of an emergency relates to doing nothing physically while your brain is identifying what is happening and what you must do physically.

Airplanes once in motion have inertia and will continue in the direction they were moving and as inertia decays they will either slow down or lose altitude or both.

When training water bomber pilots I would demonstrate " Doing nothing " except thinking when practicing engine failures right after take off by reducing power to zero just after lift off from the water with a full load of water and counting to ten without any action except watching the airspeed decay.

During the ten count there would only be a two or three knot loss of airspeed......I always taught them to lift off the water and accelerate to minimum control speed plus ten knots before assuming the climbing attitude.

Once they became confident that there was no need to rush through the emergency procedures worrying about losing control due to loss of airspeed they were able to think and thus perform the needed actions accurately and thus maintain control.

One day we were working a fire in northern Manitoba and I lost the left engine just after lift off and without any rush went through the engine failure procedures and feathered the engine.

The F/O thought I was just doing a practice session until he suddenly put it all together and realized I had dropped the load of water and actually had feathered the engine.

With an empty airplane there was no real problem flying the seventy five miles to the nearest airport.