Bad RWY at JFK again

[Admiral346]

Incident: Etihad A345 at New York on Jun 17th 2010, took out runway edge lights on landing

By Simon Hradecky, created Monday, Jun 21st 2010 07:57Z, last updated Monday, Jun 21st 2010 07:57ZAn Etihad Airbus A340-500, registration A6-EHC performing flight EY-101 from Abu Dhabi (United Arab Emirates) to New York JFK,NY (USA), was cleared to land on JFK's runway 04L, tower reported winds at 21 knots from 340 degrees, when they took out a couple of runway edge lights during the landing. Tower asked whether they needed any assistance which was declined and cleared them to "turn left when able". Tower later reported that they hit the left hand runway edge lights, unclear whether with the landing gear or another part of the aircraft, and had the airplane hold position on the adjacent taxiway for a check for damage.

A runway inspection revealed damage to the left hand edge lights of runway 04L prior to the intersection with runway 31L.

The runway was closed for about 10 minutes.



While RWYs 31 are mor suitable, this flight is landing on 04, getting the full xwinds and takes out some lights...

Why don't they get the apropriate RWY for landing?

Nic

[p51guy]

A 60 degree crosswind at 21 knots shouldn't require a runway change. Why they hit the lights is unknown but they can't blame it on the cross wind this time.

[MTOW]

You land an A340-600 with crab still on and place the cockpit on the centreline, the main wheels are closer than some might think to the edge of the runway.

[p51guy]

Don't we put the cockpit on the flare so the mains touch down on the centerline? Isn't that how autoland works? I remember as a junior FO, my leg, on an MD80 with a 30 knot crosswind in Vegas having the cockpit almost over the runway edge lights to land on the centerline with the mains. Also with the left 60 degree crosswind wouldn't that have taken out the right edge lights instead of the left? Sounds more like some PIO's to touchdown I've seen .

[Wiley]

p51guy, that's the way it should be done, particularly on a very long aircraft like the A340-600 or the B777-300, but in my experience (12+ years on the 773), I've seen more than a few pilots who forget to make that allowance.

Another of my pet hates is those widebody pilots who think they're flying a Cessna 152 and kick it straight at the last moment in a crosswind. it works a treat if you get it exactly right, but can quickly become a proverbial can of worms if you don't and the aircraft begins to drift downwind before touchdown. The side of the runway can come up very, very quickly in such circumstances.

"Stabilised Approach" is the mantra we all go by in normal ops, so why not stick with that concept in a crosswind? Do what the autopilot does - cross controls a couple of hundred feet above touchdown (and if you're really clever, align the track made good line with the heading marker on your PFD) and the aircraft will ooze onto the runway tracking beautifully. If the crosswind is above 31kts, where Boeing recommends you don't cross control, accept a bit of crab at touchdown and kick it straight immediately after 'impact' - the aircraft will cope with it. If you don't believe me, look at that anmazing video clip of the 777s doing their crosswind proving flights in (was it?) Peru.

But if you're going to land with crab on - or are a 'kick it straight at the last minute' hero(!), stick yourself and the cockpit right out over the upwind side of the runway, (in a strong crosswind, as far out as the runway edge) 'cos when you kick it straight, the pivot point won't be you and the cockpit, but waaaay behind you.

[Otterman]

Since March the main Bay runway (31L/13R) has been closed for major maintenance. This runway usually handles 30% of the traffic at JFK. About 10,000 feet of this runway is to be re-opened on June 30th. Since March unique and challenging runway combinations have been used to maintain the required capacity.

Personally I feel the airport and ATC have done a stellar job keeping things going. But it is always an interesting ride into JFK. About 50% of my flights get in there with a non-precision approach.

[beardy]

Wiley,
The last Airbus I flew crabbed in and kicked straight using the rad alt at very low level when on autoland. Very nice, clean and efficient.

[Fubaar]

The magic words being, beardy, "when on autoland". As someone has already pointed out - lots of non precision approaches are the order of the day at JFK, even at the best of times without the current 31 runway works.

Have to agree with Wiley's comment: kicking a big aeroplane straight in the flare isn't conducive to maintaining a stabilised approach. There are lots of videos out there of things going very, very pear shaped when people get it wrong or in gusty conditions, when the crosswind you've planned for either suddenly isn't there or is just as suddenly is quite a bit more than you planned for.

[beardy]

Fubaar,

I must have misunderstood Wiley

Do what the autopilot does - cross controls a couple of hundred feet above touchdown

That doesn't represent a logical argument because that is not what the Airbus autopilot does. That is not to say there is no merit in flying cross controlled, but stick to sequential logic when justifying advice.

[SMT Member]

that is not what the Airbus autopilot does

... but it might be what the B777 does, which is the aircraft Wiley refers to.

[GlueBall]

"Bad RWY at JFK again"

No Admiral346, rather it's bad flare/rollout technique. :{

[ficrew]

I agree with Glueball. At first glance it looks like a bit of poor flying to me. 21 kts even at a 90 degree angle should not cause a problem to an experienced cockpit crew.

[Fatfish]

Localizer arial located on nose will mean a well flown localizer would have Cockpit on the centerline with main wheels away from the center on a 30knots crosswind. Floating on the decrab means a few edge lights will need replacing. :\

[aguadalte]

Here's the correct technique, valid for all types.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxkufQbBdbc

[beardy]

SMT member,

Forgive me, I thought WILEY was giving general advice/instruction to us, all based on his 773 experience.

[Sir George Cayley]

There are 2 types of runway edge lights; elevated or inset.

Elevated are as described and consist of a frangible metal support tube that sits in an holder bolted to the pavement on op of which can be an omni directional lamp or a pair of bi directional lamps. The landing class of runway in term of viz will dictate the intensity of the lights.

Inset lights are generally bi-directional and consist of a forged alloy design that includes flush mounted lenses which are bolted onto a 'can' sunk into the pavement. A more expensive solution but clearly less prone to damage.

In Europe, these are more prevalent where CAT ll/lll ops are permitted and have to be associated with a compliant centre line.

Port of NY use Crouze-Hinds lighting equipment. Question is why in this age use last century edge lights?

Sir George Cayley

[p51guy]

All autoland aircraft would require the localizer antennas to be placed on the belly just forward of the centerline close to the gear. All Boeings are like this because on all autoland sim checks we get one centerline call because you are rolling out off centerline. If the antenna was in the nose you would never be on centerline on a crosswind landing. We had to identify all antennas on the aircraft on 9 month checks.

[Wiley]

I'd be interested to see any counter agruments to my comment (above)Another of my pet hates is those widebody pilots who think they're flying a Cessna 152 and kick it straight at the last moment in a crosswind.As I said above, there would seem to be quite a few who disagree with me and prefer (and persist in using) the 'kick it straight in the latter stage of the flare' technique.

In my opinion, this has all the pitfalls of turning a stable approach at the very last (and most critical) moment into what is basically an unstable approach.

With the width of the mainwheel tracks on current widebodies, it also means you can find the downwind main bogies very close to, if not off the runway in little more than the blink of an eye if you don't manage to achieve touchdown exactly when you wanted to.

I've never professed to thinking that I'm some 'ace of the base' by any means, but lately, old age and changed flying patterns have made it even more difficult to maintain stick and rudder skills. The combination of (let's be honest - stupid) company SOPS demanding maximum use of automation at all times and much of our flying these days being ultra long haul, none of us get as much hands on practice as we'd like, so anyone thinking they can plant the beast on the runway at exactly the right moment in a heavy crosswind with a 'kick it straight in the flare' manoeuvre, particulalry at the end of a twelve hour sector, in my opinion, is fooling himself.

[Capn Bloggs]

Localizer arial located on nose will mean a well flown localizer would have Cockpit on the centerline with main wheels away from the center on a 30knots crosswind.
My LOC antennae are 2/3rds of the way up forward edge of the fin (717).

[White Knight]

Well as it's an A345 that is the subject of this incident how about a quote from A345 FCOM 3.03.22 titled Crosswind Landings?

Crosswind Landings:

The preferred technique is to use rudder to align the aircraft with the runway during the flare whilst using lateral control to maintain the aircraft on the runway center-line.
For crosswind landing routine use of into wind aileron is not recommended because sidestick deflection commands roll rate until touchdown.
In strong crosswind conditions, small amounts of lateral control may be used to maintain wing level. The lateral stick input must be reduced to zero at first main landing gear touchdown.

What is good for a 777 Wiley 'ain't good for the Bigbus... The technique works just fine I assure having done it myself in many a strong crosswind:ok:

Besides - I found that the wing down, cross control technique very effective in a C-152 all those years ago:E

[alwayzinit]

Oh come guys! We are meant to be professionals

You are flying a multimillion $ piece of tin full of people, you have a responsibility to the pax, company and yourself to be fully conversant with ALL the recommend techniques of how to do a xwind landing upto and including the limit.

If you are not you should get out of the flight deck and take up gardening.


Both Airbus and B777 are fly by wire not cable therefore there is no control input lag, as a result in my experience the 777 is the best and most responsive of any commercial aircraft in a crosswind I have ever flown.

Applying crossed controls to counter a rudder input is not unstabilising an approach, its Effect of Controls 1 for heavens sake!

Let remember we are meant to be pilots not just button pushers.

rant over and the soap box is back in the cupboard!

[White Knight]

Applying crossed controls to counter a rudder input is not unstabilising an approach, its Effect of Controls 1 for heavens sake!

I couldn't agree more... Just highlighting the FCOM for the subject of this thread:ok:

[411A]

Applying crossed controls to counter a rudder input is not unstabilising an approach, its Effect of Controls 1 for heavens sake!

Yup...and been this way since the 707 days.
Nothing new, perfectly acceptable.

[Fubaar]

For ULH pilots who get only three or four landings a month, (most of them not crosswind), is that ego or common sense talking?

[alwayzinit]

Well speaking for myself, the flight deck of a wide body aircraft (or any other vehicle for that matter) is THE ONE place where ego has absolutely no place.

My post stated that you should, as a matter of professional responsibility, be fully conversant with all the recommended techniques and use the most appropriate one depending on the circumstances in which you find yourself.

As to ULR flying and maintaining competence/proficiency. In Ek we do 1 or 2 a month so it should not be a problem. However, I agree that if you do nothing but ULR stuff maintaining proficiency is not easy hence being familiar with all the various techniques, or tell someone and get into the sim, or be a grown up and bid, if possible, for less ULR flights thus taking responsibility for your own competence.

It is not brain surgery after all.

[sunbird123]

Did any other aircraft have the same problem landing that day?.

[Desk Jockey]

All autoland aircraft would require the localizer antennas to be placed on the belly just forward of the centerline close to the gear. All Boeings are like this because on all autoland sim checks we get one centerline call because you are rolling out off centerline. If the antenna was in the nose you would never be on centerline on a crosswind landing. We had to identify all antennas on the aircraft on 9 month checks.


Where is just forward of the centerline?
It's under the radome with the GS antenna. (On the 737) and most others I'd hazard a guess.

[misd-agin]

18 kt crosswind. Big deal.

Left crosswind. They took out the left runway lights. No 'downwind' drfit issue.

Crosswind landing technique isn't important if you don't land near the centerline.

[captjns]

While RWYs 31 are mor suitable, this flight is landing on 04, getting the full xwinds and takes out some lights...

Why don't they get the apropriate RWY for landing?

Or better, why could the crew not muster the skills and proficiency required to tackle a crosswind landing:hmm:?

[Heliplane]

As a light piston single and occasional light twin driver, I always try to land with the upwind wheel first, wing low and nose pointing straight down the runway - ie no crab and no drift and hence no sideloading on the landing gear.

Videos of big jets landing with a crab/drift always surprise me as the forces that seem to be imposed on the landing gear look huge/potentially damaging.

Are big jets landed this way because a single gear cannot handle all of the weight on landing or is there a risk of one of the engine pods striking the ground or some other reason?

Interested to know.

[JW411]

Engine pods striking the ground is a big problem on such aircraft as the 747. This makes the wing-down technique quite tricky.

On the other hand, the DC-10 was a brilliant wing-down aeroplane. If you look at the geometry, you would never be able to scrape a pod (you would always get the wingtip first).

[Jet Jockey A4]

Not all aircraft manufacturers allow for the "crabbed landing technique" because of the side loads imposed on the landing gear.

[JW411]

Now that is a fascinating statement.

Can you tell us more please?

[wonderbusdriver]

Well MD11 would be one type I´m absolutely sure of (and have experienced) that hates crabby landings!

And the Scarebus is not meant to be landed without decrabbing to a certain extent either as quoted from the OM-B before.

Somebody just messed up the landing during the EY-incident - nothing more, nothing less. The Xwind certainly sound do-able on the size of an A345.

But c´mon - AUH-JFK! - is near the red line.

There, but for the grace of God...

[zlin77]

Agree with WILEY, I'm also a 773 driver, The Chinese Landing "One wing low" is the way to go!!

[dooner]

Have to agree White Knight

Had several max wind landings in AKL on the 345, looks a little hairy lining up on the edge lights. I cheat a little and begin the de-crab just prior to the flare with slower rudder inputs, needs a little more lateral attention but works well and the aircraft is in the level attitude on touchdown.

Either way immediatly prior to or in the flare hasn't made a huge difference and neither have strong gusts during the flare, just need to be ready with control inputs if needed.

This isn't rocket science, what works for one may type not necesarily work for another.

Stay safe

Dooner:ok:

[Wiley]

Before the 31 knot limit for the crabbed technique came in, I've landed a 772 in a 40 kt crosswind at LHR using the crossed control technique - and when I was very, very new on type. (It was my initial check flight after my conversion.)

The aeroplane went on as if on a rail (thanks more to Mr Boeing's designers than anything I did, I suspect), and we certainly didn't get a pod scrape. As I mentioned in my earlier post, it's how the autopilot does it and it maintains a totally stable attitude (and perhaps just as important, a stable track) right to touchdown.

Thanks to the track line in the compass at the bottom of the PFD, you can even finesse the amount of rudder required to get the aircraft tracking exactly on runway heading, so it doesn't matter if you don't get the flare/touchdown absolutely nailed - the aircraft isn't going through (what can be a quite large) gyration as you kick it straight at the last minute and therefore, isn't heading off for the side of the runway at a rapid rate of knots if you float a little longer than is ideal.

777 drivers, next time you do a sim. ride, ask the instructor to wind in a 30kt (or more) crosswind and take a look at how the autopilot handles the final 300 or 400 feet. Then try manually flying an approach and use the same technique as the autopilot. I believe you'll become a convert.

The only reason I can see for someone using the 'kick it straight in the flare' technique in a 777 is ego, because you think you're skilled enough to do it. Like those who lambasted me in posts above, you quite possibly are - but too many FO's (and Captains on multi crew ULR flights) I've seen try it aren't so skilled and turn what could be a no brainer, non event crosswind landing into something approaching those movie clips we've all seen on YouTube.

[assymetric]

If I remember correctly, Airbus does not recommend x-controls. As per the FCTM
"crabbed approach wings level" should be the technique used.

I have used both and Boeing a/c (never flown B777) respond well to x-control, Airbus not so much.

My two cents worth

Assy

[p51guy]

Doing the cross control during a flare in a Boeing is quite intuitive. The Airbus I understand adds more bank holding the control off neutral so would be a relearning for a Boeing pilot. We always hold the aileron into the wind and the rudder keeps us straight. Kind of like all of the aircraft in the past 107 years.

[bcflyer]

I agree with alwayzinit.. A 21 kt crosswind should not be an issue for any professional pilot in any larger aircraft. Period!! The title of this thread is very misleading as it really had nothing to do with JFK. Crosswind landings are a fact of life in our business no matter what type of plane you fly. Quit trying to blame everyone else. Unless there was a mechanical issue, these guys just simply screwed up. End of conversation. If you can't handle the airplane get the :mad: out of the cockpit!!

[p51guy]

I agree, there is no such thing as a bad runway if it is made out of concrete and has no potholes in it. The actual xwind component that day was under 20 knots, quite manageable by any student pilot. JFK is not responsible for poor piloting skills.

[B888]

Well, it seems that 31L ( at least part of it ) will be opened on 29th June.
So, no more excuses?

[emoroid]

Info on antennas. Most boeing aircraft have the ILS glideslope and localiser antennas in the nose, on the forward bulkhead below the radar. I doubt whether your 9 month check of antennas would include opening the radome. Try wiring diagram manual chapter 91 charts will show all locations

[Jetjock330]

This is the antenna position of the actual A345 aircraft

http://i836.photobucket.com/albums/zz285/Jetjock330/Screenshot2010-06-27at54717AM.png

[shortfuel]

...why do you care about antenna position???

On Airbuses, LLZ signal is processed so the deviation displayed on PFDs is that between the LLZ beam and the aircraft yaw axis...
The fitted Multi-Mode Receivers take care of that.


Fatfish, p51guy...on all Airbus FBW aircraft, glide and loc antennas are located in the nose area...that does not mean that the nose is aligned with the LLZ signal during an ILS app.! Otherwise, every x-wind landing would be scary...

[ehwatezedoing]

JW411 post #31
On the other hand, the DC-10 was a brilliant wing-down aeroplane. If you look at the geometry, you would never be able to scrape a pod (you would always get the wingtip first).

True! :}

http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/middle/5/5/8/1724855.jpg

http://www.airliners.net/photo/USA---Air/McDonnell-Douglas-KC-10A (http://www.airliners.net/photo/USA---Air/McDonnell-Douglas-KC-10A/1724855/L/)

[p51guy]

SF, Thanks for the explanation of how Airbus uses a nose mounted localizer antenna to land on the centerline. I wonder if Boeing uses the computer to find the center axis to align with centerline too? Seems like an antenna mounted on centerline further back would be so much simpler. I don't have any manuals any more and have a friend trying to find where the 757 loc antenna is but it isn't in our study guide. Seems like in a xwind during decrab all autolands would end up in a bank into the wind during flare to get on centerline for the main gear.

[DDrake1]

Could this have been an Auto-Land gone wrong with a LOC deviation after Flare?

[auh_to_auh]

yes:ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::ok:

[misd-agin]

So the apparently preferred choice is to drag the wingtip, with all that leverage, vs. scrapping the bottom of the engine cowling?

Put me down in the 'favors engine cowling' crowd.

[p51guy]

And why would a xwind landing at demonstrated xwind component, properly executed, drag a pod or wingtip if it didn't in certification?

[Fubaar]

So the apparently preferred choice is to drag the wingtip, with all that leverage, vs. scrapping the bottom of the engine cowling?Eh? Could someone translate that for me please?

[JW411]

I think he is just trying to be funny.

[JW411]

ehwatezedoing:

I absolutely loved that photograph of the KC-10 doing an absolutely beautiful "wing down" landing. I suspect that the photograph was taken at Lajes (which always had a huge crosswind) in the Azores.

Now I have put one of the Queen's Short Belfasts on to that runway at Lajes in a horrendous crosswind (and I do not know how many other airfields around the world).

The Belfast crosswind limit (because of yaw dampers, triplex auto land and rudder-aileron interconnects) was officially 21 knots.

I landed at YQX one night in hellacious winter conditions in windspeeds that most of you would rather read about. As best as I can remember, the crosswind was around 41 knots but the wing down technique got us quickly down to the Flyers Club!

[auh_to_auh]

Wow is your name by any chance Chuck

[Capn Bloggs]

No, just rule-breaker. Good example for the up-and-comers, JW4111. Not. :=

[737forever]

To p51 guy!(or any other pro) What if the wing tips are far aft of the mains as it is on the DC10 and many other sweep wing aircraft,and then being caught by a sheer or downdraft in the flare.Could,t this ruin an otherwise perfectly executed wing low landing when the pilot pull back on his columm to arrest the high sinkrate? I am no pro, just asking.I have seen a tip scrape on an Md80 where there was no unusual high bank angle,but where the deck angle was higher than normal to prevent a last second high sinker.Isn,t possible to simply being caught by bad luck regardless of what happend during certification?

[Fubaar]

737forever, the wing down technique works a treat if within the crosswind limits set by very experienced manufacturer's test pilots and design engineers. (It was certainly my preferred option for the Boeing 777. Airbus suggest the kick it straight in the flare option as their preferred method because their FBW computers aren't programmed to cope as well with the wing down option.)

If you try using the wing down technique at higher crosswinds (that are also within the aircraft design limits but higher than that recommended for the wing down technique), you risk an engine pod or wingtip scrape (depending on the geometry of the particular aircraft type).

In this day and age, attempting a landing in a crosswind beyond the certified (or "demonstrated") limits is a Very Bad Idea for a line pilot wishing to keep his job. However, in very rare circumstances, sometimes the alternative to busting a crosswind limit might be even less appetizing than risking a pod or wing tip strike. In those very rare and extraordinary circumstances, it's a matter of the captain using his discretion.

But such circumstances should be very rare indeed, and maybe encountered once or twice in a whole career.

[737forever]

When you kick it straight in the flare,isn,t it a tendency to float or balloon past you,r desired touchdown point.That,s what I seen a lot of times specially with sweep wing long haulers.I tried a 767 sim some years ago and what worked best for me was either side slip early or land crabbed.But then ago I am no pro.To me it looks that one wing get more lift from the wind,and the other wing from the dropping aileron,This and the groundeffect and it was very easy to overshoot. Is this the reason why so many land in crab on short runways with crosswind?I sometimes in me free time work as a freelance aviation writer,so i hope I been apologized for asking on a forum which is ment mostly for all of you,r professionals out there.

[Capt Groper]

I'm not doubting shortfuel but would appreciate a reference to this correction calculated by the MMR to the LOC and GS signals.

[Airprox]

Wiley, I am a 'kick it straight' cross wind pilot. I have never had a problem right up to max crosswinds. Although I tried it your way after being shown it in the sim. OMG! I thought we'd crashed! It was the most scary, stupid and un controlled crosswind landing technique I have ever had the stupidity to try out. That was on a 757. I'm sticking to the old way thanks. Its not ace of the base its called being a pilot!

[MTOW]

It was the most scary, stupid and un controlled crosswind landing technique I have ever had the stupidity to try out.Strange then that it's the way the Boeing autopilot does it (on the 777 at least) in an autoland.

[fireloop]

Strange then that it's the way the Boeing autopilot does it (on the 777 at least) in an autoland.

Not strange at all... Xwind limitations for a (777-) autoland are far less than the max. demonstrated xwind. I wonder why that is? Having said that; I'm okay with "George" using its technique... upto 25kts across. I'm going to stick with my preferred and approved by mr. Boeing -method...

I guess that puts me in the "ego-trippin' heroes-" camp... :hmm:

[BusyB]

Boeing recommends "kick off drift" for the B747-800 due limited engine clearance wing down.:ok:

[misd-agin]

Wiley's technique or Boeing's procedure?

Wiley's technique or Boeing's procedure?

If you're wondering about the answer to the question...:{:ugh::eek::uhoh:

[heavy.airbourne]

On Airbuses, LLZ signal is processed so the deviation displayed on PFDs is that between the LLZ beam and the aircraft yaw axis...
The fitted Multi-Mode Receivers take care of that.:=

This is not correct. Having landed in x-winds on A330, A343 and 346, if this feature has really been implemented, it does not work. The landings are not scary, but they need proficiency.:ok:

[cheeseman]

Would love to hear from any jockeys caught up in the storm action at JFK on 19/7/10 at around 1700z. Sounded like things were getting hectic, with quite a few inbounds on min fuel after multiple go-arounds. Quick runway changes were required, and a Lufthansa just made it in after switching from 22L to 04R having asked for clearance to another field if the 3rd attempt didn't come off. Would be interested to hear what people thought of the ATC in the situation. Sounded pretty impressive to me.

[Bearcat]

it was certainly sporty with the wind all over the place as the TZ's went through. Final approach controller for 4R did a mega job. thanks :ok:

[Servus !]

The 777 autoland x-wind limit is 25kt, demonstrated autoland x-wind is 39kts :ok:

[BusyB]

Servus, ours is 40kts:ok:

[boofhead]

Nothing to do with JFK, but some time past I was doing a line check on a pilot whose first language was not english and in a company that would translate all documents for the pilots into their own language. I was in the jump seat and he did a superb job in a 30 knot direct crosswind, manually flying the ILS onto a shortish runway. Superb job.
But at the last minute he failed to kick straight, held wings level and landed with all the drift. I truly thought all the main wheel tires would have been rolled off the rims, and the impact was dreadful, made the worse because it was so totally unexpected. Yet he was smiling as if he had done a great job.
In the crew bus I debriefed him and asked him what had gone wrong, but he professed no knowledge of what, or why, I was complaining about. He claimed he had followed all procedures correctly.
I asked him to explain the procedure, and he was correct except for the need to straighten the airplane. He said that in the B744 it was normal to hold the airplane in the crab until after touchdown.
I suspected the translation and showed him the english version. he was surprised to read that the technique he was using was only applicable to a WET runway.