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Bad RWY at JFK again

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Bad RWY at JFK again

Old 21st Jun 2010, 22:49
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Bad RWY at JFK again

Incident: Etihad A345 at New York on Jun 17th 2010, took out runway edge lights on landing
By Simon Hradecky, created Monday, Jun 21st 2010 07:57Z, last updated Monday, Jun 21st 2010 07:57ZAn Etihad Airbus A340-500, registration A6-EHC performing flight EY-101 from Abu Dhabi (United Arab Emirates) to New York JFK,NY (USA), was cleared to land on JFK's runway 04L, tower reported winds at 21 knots from 340 degrees, when they took out a couple of runway edge lights during the landing. Tower asked whether they needed any assistance which was declined and cleared them to "turn left when able". Tower later reported that they hit the left hand runway edge lights, unclear whether with the landing gear or another part of the aircraft, and had the airplane hold position on the adjacent taxiway for a check for damage.

A runway inspection revealed damage to the left hand edge lights of runway 04L prior to the intersection with runway 31L.

The runway was closed for about 10 minutes.
While RWYs 31 are mor suitable, this flight is landing on 04, getting the full xwinds and takes out some lights...

Why don't they get the apropriate RWY for landing?

Nic
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Old 22nd Jun 2010, 00:47
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A 60 degree crosswind at 21 knots shouldn't require a runway change. Why they hit the lights is unknown but they can't blame it on the cross wind this time.
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Old 22nd Jun 2010, 00:59
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You land an A340-600 with crab still on and place the cockpit on the centreline, the main wheels are closer than some might think to the edge of the runway.
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Old 22nd Jun 2010, 01:22
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Don't we put the cockpit on the flare so the mains touch down on the centerline? Isn't that how autoland works? I remember as a junior FO, my leg, on an MD80 with a 30 knot crosswind in Vegas having the cockpit almost over the runway edge lights to land on the centerline with the mains. Also with the left 60 degree crosswind wouldn't that have taken out the right edge lights instead of the left? Sounds more like some PIO's to touchdown I've seen .
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Old 22nd Jun 2010, 03:06
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p51guy, that's the way it should be done, particularly on a very long aircraft like the A340-600 or the B777-300, but in my experience (12+ years on the 773), I've seen more than a few pilots who forget to make that allowance.

Another of my pet hates is those widebody pilots who think they're flying a Cessna 152 and kick it straight at the last moment in a crosswind. it works a treat if you get it exactly right, but can quickly become a proverbial can of worms if you don't and the aircraft begins to drift downwind before touchdown. The side of the runway can come up very, very quickly in such circumstances.

"Stabilised Approach" is the mantra we all go by in normal ops, so why not stick with that concept in a crosswind? Do what the autopilot does - cross controls a couple of hundred feet above touchdown (and if you're really clever, align the track made good line with the heading marker on your PFD) and the aircraft will ooze onto the runway tracking beautifully. If the crosswind is above 31kts, where Boeing recommends you don't cross control, accept a bit of crab at touchdown and kick it straight immediately after 'impact' - the aircraft will cope with it. If you don't believe me, look at that anmazing video clip of the 777s doing their crosswind proving flights in (was it?) Peru.

But if you're going to land with crab on - or are a 'kick it straight at the last minute' hero(!), stick yourself and the cockpit right out over the upwind side of the runway, (in a strong crosswind, as far out as the runway edge) 'cos when you kick it straight, the pivot point won't be you and the cockpit, but waaaay behind you.
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Old 22nd Jun 2010, 06:45
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Since March the main Bay runway (31L/13R) has been closed for major maintenance. This runway usually handles 30% of the traffic at JFK. About 10,000 feet of this runway is to be re-opened on June 30th. Since March unique and challenging runway combinations have been used to maintain the required capacity.

Personally I feel the airport and ATC have done a stellar job keeping things going. But it is always an interesting ride into JFK. About 50% of my flights get in there with a non-precision approach.
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Old 22nd Jun 2010, 07:46
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Wiley,
The last Airbus I flew crabbed in and kicked straight using the rad alt at very low level when on autoland. Very nice, clean and efficient.
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Old 22nd Jun 2010, 07:59
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The magic words being, beardy, "when on autoland". As someone has already pointed out - lots of non precision approaches are the order of the day at JFK, even at the best of times without the current 31 runway works.

Have to agree with Wiley's comment: kicking a big aeroplane straight in the flare isn't conducive to maintaining a stabilised approach. There are lots of videos out there of things going very, very pear shaped when people get it wrong or in gusty conditions, when the crosswind you've planned for either suddenly isn't there or is just as suddenly is quite a bit more than you planned for.

Last edited by Fubaar; 22nd Jun 2010 at 08:21. Reason: typo
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Old 22nd Jun 2010, 08:11
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Fubaar,

I must have misunderstood Wiley

Do what the autopilot does - cross controls a couple of hundred feet above touchdown
That doesn't represent a logical argument because that is not what the Airbus autopilot does. That is not to say there is no merit in flying cross controlled, but stick to sequential logic when justifying advice.
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Old 22nd Jun 2010, 14:01
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that is not what the Airbus autopilot does
... but it might be what the B777 does, which is the aircraft Wiley refers to.
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Old 22nd Jun 2010, 14:20
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Admiral346 . . .

"Bad RWY at JFK again"
No Admiral346, rather it's bad flare/rollout technique.
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Old 22nd Jun 2010, 14:24
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I agree with Glueball. At first glance it looks like a bit of poor flying to me. 21 kts even at a 90 degree angle should not cause a problem to an experienced cockpit crew.
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Old 22nd Jun 2010, 14:53
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Localizer arial located on nose will mean a well flown localizer would have Cockpit on the centerline with main wheels away from the center on a 30knots crosswind. Floating on the decrab means a few edge lights will need replacing.
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Old 22nd Jun 2010, 16:19
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Here's the correct technique, valid for all types.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxkufQbBdbc

Last edited by aguadalte; 22nd Jun 2010 at 16:23. Reason: video not working
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Old 22nd Jun 2010, 17:42
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SMT member,

Forgive me, I thought WILEY was giving general advice/instruction to us, all based on his 773 experience.
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Old 22nd Jun 2010, 18:57
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There are 2 types of runway edge lights; elevated or inset.

Elevated are as described and consist of a frangible metal support tube that sits in an holder bolted to the pavement on op of which can be an omni directional lamp or a pair of bi directional lamps. The landing class of runway in term of viz will dictate the intensity of the lights.

Inset lights are generally bi-directional and consist of a forged alloy design that includes flush mounted lenses which are bolted onto a 'can' sunk into the pavement. A more expensive solution but clearly less prone to damage.

In Europe, these are more prevalent where CAT ll/lll ops are permitted and have to be associated with a compliant centre line.

Port of NY use Crouze-Hinds lighting equipment. Question is why in this age use last century edge lights?

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Old 22nd Jun 2010, 23:18
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All autoland aircraft would require the localizer antennas to be placed on the belly just forward of the centerline close to the gear. All Boeings are like this because on all autoland sim checks we get one centerline call because you are rolling out off centerline. If the antenna was in the nose you would never be on centerline on a crosswind landing. We had to identify all antennas on the aircraft on 9 month checks.
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Old 23rd Jun 2010, 01:10
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I'd be interested to see any counter agruments to my comment (above)
Another of my pet hates is those widebody pilots who think they're flying a Cessna 152 and kick it straight at the last moment in a crosswind.
As I said above, there would seem to be quite a few who disagree with me and prefer (and persist in using) the 'kick it straight in the latter stage of the flare' technique.

In my opinion, this has all the pitfalls of turning a stable approach at the very last (and most critical) moment into what is basically an unstable approach.

With the width of the mainwheel tracks on current widebodies, it also means you can find the downwind main bogies very close to, if not off the runway in little more than the blink of an eye if you don't manage to achieve touchdown exactly when you wanted to.

I've never professed to thinking that I'm some 'ace of the base' by any means, but lately, old age and changed flying patterns have made it even more difficult to maintain stick and rudder skills. The combination of (let's be honest - stupid) company SOPS demanding maximum use of automation at all times and much of our flying these days being ultra long haul, none of us get as much hands on practice as we'd like, so anyone thinking they can plant the beast on the runway at exactly the right moment in a heavy crosswind with a 'kick it straight in the flare' manoeuvre, particulalry at the end of a twelve hour sector, in my opinion, is fooling himself.
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Old 23rd Jun 2010, 01:40
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Localizer arial located on nose will mean a well flown localizer would have Cockpit on the centerline with main wheels away from the center on a 30knots crosswind.
My LOC antennae are 2/3rds of the way up forward edge of the fin (717).
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Old 23rd Jun 2010, 06:07
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Well as it's an A345 that is the subject of this incident how about a quote from A345 FCOM 3.03.22 titled Crosswind Landings?

Crosswind Landings:

The preferred technique is to use rudder to align the aircraft with the runway during the flare whilst using lateral control to maintain the aircraft on the runway center-line.
For crosswind landing routine use of into wind aileron is not recommended because sidestick deflection commands roll rate until touchdown.
In strong crosswind conditions, small amounts of lateral control may be used to maintain wing level. The lateral stick input must be reduced to zero at first main landing gear touchdown.

What is good for a 777 Wiley 'ain't good for the Bigbus... The technique works just fine I assure having done it myself in many a strong crosswind

Besides - I found that the wing down, cross control technique very effective in a C-152 all those years ago
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