Radio in uncontrolled airspace [Archive]

UnlikelyAdventure

21st Jun 2010, 17:24

Okay, here is a random issue:

Flying cross-country the UK, I can never decide who to talk to whilst VFR in uncontrolled airspace when not near enough to an aerodrome to warrant talking to them. I sort of feel like I should be talking to someone and if I've got a radio and transponder, I might as well use them.

Should I contact a LARS unit and ask for a traffic service? Or should I talk to London FIS for a basic service? Or should I just not talk to anyone?

I have on occasion spoken to London FIS...this seems to be useful for a few different reasons...they'll give me an alerting service if I go missing...squawking their code lets radar units know who i'm talking to in case I get too near their airspace...they can give useful information and can give limited information on traffic in the area. However, I've been told by a couple of people that London FIS is only there to contact if I want some specific information from them.

Most of the uncontrolled airspace in the UK is covered by a LARS, but should I talk to them?...and would they bother to give me just a basic service?

I find this quite frustrating because I can never decide who if anyone to talk to and there doesn't seem to be an accepted practice for this and nobody I've asked has been able to give a good answer.

Anybody out there have any advice on good practice?

fuzzy6988

21st Jun 2010, 17:59

I find this quite frustrating because I can never decide who if anyone to talk to

After returning from the US, I initially found the system a little confusing to use, particularly in areas of service overlap. In America it is much simpler: (departure airport, flight following from one facility, destination airport).

I generally like to go for the best service available. This means, in decreasing order of preference:

1) Deconfliction Service. Not usually offered in VMC.
2) Traffic Service. Sometimes you get traffic with no "height" information - due to the other guy not squawking mode-C.
3) Basic Service, when you get that feeling that everyone around you isn't squawking mode-C.
4) London Info in areas not covered by LARS.

If there is CAS or an ATZ, I would either stay well away from its edges, or ask for a clearance to get to the other side. Better doing either of these two than to risk an infringement and get bo!!cked.

Other pilots may prefer not to talk to anyone.

gasax

21st Jun 2010, 18:32

If they have radar - they are worth talking to, so LARS yes,

Anyone offering 'Basic' not worth the trouble - unless you are over the Scottish Highlands or water.

A 'busy' airfield without Class D - worth a call if you are reasonably close.

Otherwise enjoy the 'big sky'.

avonflyer

21st Jun 2010, 19:57

My experience is that much of the time, anyone with a radar service close to you will give you a basic service and when they feel you are too far away will suggest who to freecall.

Some just get too busy. I remember Gloucester went through a phase of refusing service (very nicely) and that’s fair enough if they have urgent local issues.

The thing to remember is that it doesn’t hurt to ask - if they cannot help they are generally polite and if they are not - well, you have not lost anything by asking.

London always seem happy to offer service and its always interesting to listen to them (I have to make sure I concentrate on my flying rather than trying to picture the traffic they are dealing with over the large area that is covered)

But remember - it’s your choice - call them or don't - if you feel more comfortable calling them do so - if you want peace and quiet for a while don’t. I am sure the anti's (on both sides) will converge on the thread soon - don’t let them try to tell you that "all the world is wrong except them".

mixsfour

21st Jun 2010, 20:02

LARS is best, ask for traffic or deconfliction, if they're busy you may only get a basic service. Failing that I'd go for a basic service from London Information. At least they'll allocate you a squawk which will tell any terminal controllers who you're talking to if they see you getting too close to their airpsace.

If you're transiting over an aerodrome call them even if you're planning to go above the ATZ - you may find out something useful about arriving or departing traffic. When clear go back to your previous unit.

troddenmasses

21st Jun 2010, 20:13

niknak

21st Jun 2010, 20:20

Anyone offering 'Basic' not worth the trouble - unless you are over the Scottish Highlands or water

Not so, it's worth talking to any radar unit - LARS or not -even if they only offer a basic service, any decent atco will always try and give you information on any other traffic in the vicinity.
Getting any other type of service from a radar unit depends very much on your height, the licensed range of radar cover of the unit, traffic levels and your ability to accept a traffic or deconfliction service.

Bear in mind that talking to London FIS or not talking to anyone is all very well, but you won't get any information on possible conflicting traffic which isn't on frequency, FIS do their best but they cover a huge area between the FISOs and can't see what is going on and they aren't as up to speed on regional/localised activities which may affect you as a radar/approach unit will be.

There are some who consider ATC to be the devil incarnate, others who love us so much they want to talk all day, personally I would advocate an radar unit over London FIS any day, purely because of what I've written above.
All I would say is, that if you aren't talking or don't want to talk to an ATC unit, leave your transponder on with mode C (or S if you are flash enough;)) - it's a great help.:ok:

gpn01

21st Jun 2010, 21:19

you're supposed to be enjoying the flying - so long as you are out of the way of controlled airspace and other airfields don't talk to anybody and enjoy looking out of the window. On every occasion when VMC, not running into anybody else has been down to seeing them rather than being told about them over the radio.

Why not try turning it off? You'd be surprised by how liberating it is.

Bravo!

Never have understood why it is that PPLs in VMC feel the need to be constantly talking to someone. Can understand when you're transiting close to airspace/airfields (but even then, don't understand why airfields are used as waypoints!).

Justification for talking to a ground unit seems to be based on a couple of principles that are somewhat flawed: (a) that the unit can be provide you with traffic information that helps with deconfliction (issue here is they only report on other traffic that they're talking to, so can't advise on traffic that isn't talking to them - and statistically I'd expect there's a lot more of the latter than the former); and (b) that it means that in the event of an engine failure/emergency landing then there'll be a good indication of your last known positiion (true, but how often do you have an engine failure?).

codemonkey

21st Jun 2010, 21:34

out of curiosity...assuming a pilot has taken the decision not to bother talking to anyone....what happens if he/she infringes controlled airspace? aside from the controller potentially having to re-vector commercial traffic and waste a few tons of fuel, what generally happens to the guilty party?

pasir

22nd Jun 2010, 06:17

...

One may indeed just as well have a switched off radio if thinking of
calling up a certain popular airfield to the North of London some years ago

To announce your approach would have received a curt -
"No radio calls".

...

Captain Smithy

22nd Jun 2010, 06:33

Sometimes it's OK just to maintain a listening watch on frequency if you're in Class G, that way you still get traffic information and any other pertinent details. If you need to call them for whatever reason you've got the frequency already tuned in.

Smithy

Fuji Abound

22nd Jun 2010, 07:22

Find a LARS map - the airfield books have one. That will give you a pretty good idea of who to talk to.

The debate about whether to speak to anyone has been going for ever.

Personally I think it can be useful to talk to units that cant provide a radar service because they can warn you of known hazards on your route (are you sure you have read all the NOTAMs, mauves, and there have been no pop up NOTAMs since you last checked), and it does enable you to form some sort of image of what other traffic is doing - of course if you dont participate you will also not enable others to form a picture of what you are doing.

Just one example; when I do aeros I will always call aeros between 3,000 and 5,000 in the vicinity of X. Now that gets called to anyone passing over X; could it avoid a collision one day, who knows but it takes me seconds to make the call so I think I will go on doing so.

Talkdownman

22nd Jun 2010, 07:49

UK AIP LARS Chart (http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/eadbasic/pamslight-AB94BF5C3D6B5B1EC649AC42C176052B/7FE5QZZF3FXUS/EN/Charts/ENR/NON_AIRAC/EG_ENR_6_1_6_3_en_2010-01-14.pdf)

24Carrot

22nd Jun 2010, 08:22

In my experience, the "Basic Service" from a LARS is often much more than that, around London at least. Twice in the last few months I have been overtaken by a faster aircraft on the same track. Three-way comms made it much less stressful.

The first time, LARS had little else to do, and conditions were good, it would probably have turned out fine anyway.

The second time (in marginal VMC) LARS was very busy but we pilots figured out from our own calls what was happening and rapidly got some helpful attention, despite the "workload". Basically just a "G-XX, G-YY will pass on your right" was enough.

It isn't guaranteed (I have met an opposite track formation without a peep from ATC), but why pass up any chance of timely assistance?

I would always call.

Rod1

22nd Jun 2010, 08:26

Just remember that at the weekend, when most of us fly, most of the LARS system is not available.

Rod1

screetch

22nd Jun 2010, 08:29

Mark1234

22nd Jun 2010, 08:56

Very useful link - cheers.

Just a word on service levels, rather than *who*. Lot of recommendations of taking traffic and deconfliction service. Having recently done the R/t stuff (again), it was emphasised that you might not want a deconfliction service VFR, especially on a nice (busy) day because a) you may be vectored all over the sky, b) you might not be able to accept those vectors and remain in VMC - in which case you probably shouldn't take the service.

I may be mistaken, but I believe/my understanding is that deconfliction minima are pretty stringent - same as for big tin travelling at significantly larger velocities; probably more than really necessary for the average SEP.

mm_flynn

22nd Jun 2010, 09:35

Further to the last post

Deconfliction from CAP774 (Nov 2009) is

'surveillance-derived traffic information and issues headings and/or levels imed at achieving planned deconfliction minima'

Those minima are

5 NM laterally or 3,000 ft vertically and, unless the SSR code indicates that the Mode C data has been verified, don't allow the targets to merge.

or if coordinated

3 NM laterally or 1,000 ft (there are limited conditions where 500 feet is allowed)

Unless you have two turbines pushing you, think very hard about asking for a deconfliction service - you need an awful lot of sky to achieve the required separation.

fisbangwollop

22nd Jun 2010, 10:11

Smithy Sometimes it's OK just to maintain a listening watch on frequency if you're in Class G, that way you still get traffic information and any other pertinent details. If you need to call them for whatever reason you've got the frequency already tuned in.

Thats my pet hate .....and what if everyone did that??? you would get a false sense of security thinking its very quiet on the frequency today!!!
If your going to bother tuning into the frequency...in my case Scott Info 119.875 then please please give us a call......at least then I have most of your details when all hell breaks loose as the cranckshaft pop's out the bottom of the engine!!!!..The service is free and friendly, I am sure others flying over Scotland will vouch for that....:cool::cool::cool:

mad_jock

22nd Jun 2010, 10:15

Yep speak to the BISTO man at scottish

cladosporangium

22nd Jun 2010, 11:36

Airspace, even uncontrolled airspace, in the U.K. is remarkably busy!
"Lookout", on it's own is very limited.
How often have you been told about the prescence of another aircraft and not found it for quite some time?
Epecially when it's coming directly at you?

As aviators we should be encouraging the use of any means to enhance the safety aspect of our chosen hobby.
The use of radio is massively beneficial in achieving this.
If you want peace and quiet go fly across a desert!

On a similar note: why do I rarely hear aircraft calling "downwind (with intentions)"?
Or even "finals"?
So helpful when I'm joining and searching for traffic.

And another thing..... Iv'e seen other aircraft obviously using the airfield, I've called my intentions, (there is no response from the ATC) only to be greeted with silence!
A quick reply stating where you are and what you are doing is, again enormously helpful.

Having said that, I appreciate that there are Luddites out there who choose not to have a radio fitted.

But if it's fitted, please use it.
Just trying to help!
Ta.:ok:

gpn01

22nd Jun 2010, 11:54

why do we always want to talk to somebody? Because thats (at least I) was taught by my instructor and also it says it in the book.. "always try and talk to someone".

Point is to get at least a local QNH from the different airfields and thus you should talk to someone. Remember the phrase (hight to low down you go).

But did your instructor (or the book) explain why ? I can understand if it's that you're (or they're!) an aspiring airline pilot who needs to practice liaising with ATC, etc. but otherwise it feels like a bit of lemming school teaching (why do we do this? Because we've always done it...)

Unless you're planning to overfly an ATZ, or land at the airfield, I'm not sure of the value of obtaining each airfield's QNH whilst your'e en-route. Keen to learn more about why this is felt to be necessary/useful, etc. though.

Captain Smithy

22nd Jun 2010, 12:05

That's a fair point fisbangwallop. It's something I tend to do if I'm going for a bimble just far enough beyond Approach's area of service at my home airfield, I'll have a listen on 119.87, but if I'm going any distance though I'd rather always speak to someone... usually on 119.87... which always provides an excellent and helpful service :)

Smithy

Molesworth 1

22nd Jun 2010, 12:52

I think the point is is that although it's desirable to talk to someone in uncontrolled airspace, you don't HAVE to. New PPLs often don't realise this. The first priority is to fly the aircraft. However good you are at RT, it distracts from both flying the aircraft and looking out. The older transponders can take up to 10 seconds to change sqwauk code. A high workload does not make for either a safe or pleasant flight.

I seldom get useful traffic information from an ATC offering a basic service. Most of the traffic in sight has NOT been brought to my attention by ATC.

That said, I often appreciate being able to talk to ATC - other times it's just noise, noise, noise and I can't even think straight.

gasax

22nd Jun 2010, 13:20

If you can get a Traffic service take it.

If you can talk to a LARS unit do - because even with a basic service there is a good probability that if they spot traffic they will call it.

The non-radar units? Well I included Scottish because there is less traffic and its a big rugged country, London -constant noise and little chance of any meaningful traffic awareness. Outwith the LARS areas (actually within them as well if you chose another station) there are too many potential radio stations that people can talk to to say that you will gain much situational awareness.

bingoboy

22nd Jun 2010, 14:21

So one is non radio in class G airspace at 3500ft.

Would anyone expect to find that their destination airfield would receive a phone call demanding their registration and failing that a call to an air traffic zone enroute ?

fuzzy6988

22nd Jun 2010, 14:31

Would anyone expect to find that their destination airfield would receive a phone call demanding their registration and failing that a call to an air traffic zone enroute ?

If you have entered CAS or an ATZ (with ATC) without having first obtained a clearance, I would imagine it would certainly be followed up.

If the ATZ is staffed by FISO or A/G, then you must have obtained information from them prior to entering.

bingoboy

22nd Jun 2010, 15:16

And without having been anywhere near CAS or an ATZ ?

gasax

22nd Jun 2010, 17:22

Ok, I'll treat that as if it is a real question.

The title of this thread gives the 'answer'. Class G is uncontrolled (ignoring sneaky TMZs), so there is no obligation to talk to ANYONE.

As discussed there is some benefit to talk to some people - but pilots need to understand who and why. And if there is a real benefit or if there are just doing it to fill the radio waves.

Ivor_Novello

22nd Jun 2010, 20:35

Sometimes it's not all about you.
There are rather big tubes of aluminium flying IFR outside CAS in the UK carrying 50 and more passengers that have no choice but to fly outside CAS (airways and CAS simply don't exist in certain parts of the country).
If someone non radio and non squawking gets in their way, it is a bit harsh to give airliners 90 degrees turns away from a VFR flight maybe 10,000 feet below, but unfortunately that doesn't show up with a primary return only!
Talking to ATC sometimes can help other flights, not necessarily your own.

having said that I totally understand the requirements for class G and it's quite right that pilots decide what's best for them.

bingoboy

22nd Jun 2010, 20:48

Yes it happened today and we were a bit surprised by the attitude of a controller who's airspace had not been infringed ; by a long way. :rolleyes:

Seemed irritated that the aircraft was non radio and therefore had not given a "courtesy" call even though the aircraft was in G at all times. I suppose even controllers have off days.

The same controller does seem to want to control aircraft in G - not too sure where he stands on this as lookout is the watchword.

Lister Noble

22nd Jun 2010, 20:50

There are rather big tubes of aluminium flying IFR outside CAS in the UK carrying 50 and more passengers that have no choice but to fly outside CAS (airways and CAS simply don't exist in certain parts of the country).

Not too many at 500 feet ,miles from nearest airport,but sometimes very fast pointy things at even lower levels;)

Fuji Abound

22nd Jun 2010, 21:00

It reminds me of an exchange just this week.

The aircraft was at 1,500 under the Gatwick class D talking to no one. Yes he was entitled to be there (if not at exactly 1500 feet) and yes he was entitled to remain silent but Farnborough were unhappy and he chirped up after a few blind calls.

He probably knew what he was doing but the Gatwick director didnt as he bimbled directly under his approach. On the other hand if he had said he was transitting beneath the stub at 1,450 remaining outside CAS at least the controller could asign a squawk and feel reasonably assured he knew what he was about.

I'd rather work with the various service providers in the hope they will work with me.

biscuit74

22nd Jun 2010, 21:11

I tend to agree with gasax.

Useful to at least let folk know you are around if in an area where reasonable service is possible. Scottish is almost always excellent - relatively quiet & useful.

London isgenerally far too busy to be able to cope properly and hence is little help tothe average transitting PPL. Hard to get a call in ! Confusing and distracting more often then not. Not the fault of the controllers, simpy too much trafic typically. So I'd listen only there. Up in Scottish area, talk to them every time.

Ivor_Novello

22nd Jun 2010, 21:43

Not too many at 500 feet ,miles from nearest airport,but sometimes very fast pointy things at even lower levels

I understand that, but if you are non squawking I have no idea at what level you are. If an airliner under Deconfliction crosses paths with an unknown with no mode C, even if they are 20,000 feet apart, I still have to turn them away!
If you have called and given even just a rough idea of what height band you will be operating, it makes life much easier.

Anyway, airlines operating in class F/G are aware of the risks and it's all part of the game.

Jim59

22nd Jun 2010, 22:53

UnlikelyAdventure

23rd Jun 2010, 01:24

Thanks everyone for replying. There's a lot of useful opinions from a load of different people here.

I definitely tend to side with those that say it's best to talk to someone if possible. There are far more reasons to than not to. I don't buy into the idea that somehow not talking to someone is going to make the flying more enjoyable. For me, a flight is much more enjoyable if I feel I know what's going on around me and that I'm using the equipment that I went to the trouble to have installed, to assist others in knowing what I'm up to. It's also just nice knowing there's someone somewhere that's monitoring my progress. It's amazing how things look on a radar screen.

Just one more question: Details or radar service coverage can be found here in the AIP http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/eadbasic/pamslight-E66D0F5E96A291791C9F469EB2D77C7D/7FE5QZZF3FXUS/EN/AIP/ENR/EG_ENR_1_6_en_2010-05-06.pdf

and depicted here http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/eadbasic/pamslight-E66D0F5E96A291791C9F469EB2D77C7D/7FE5QZZF3FXUS/EN/Charts/ENR/NON_AIRAC/EG_ENR_6_1_6_3_en_2010-01-14.pdf

So for example...Brize radar is published as having a service radius of 60nm and looks like it covers a huge area on that chart...if I give them a call anywhere within this, will they be happy to give me a LARS, or will they politely tell me to go away?