Ergonomics of a Cessna 152

[ronniehuang]

Hi, complete newbie here. Started on the path of a being a pilot a couple of weeks ago. I've had a few of lessons up in a Cessna 152 and I've ended up a slightly stiff and sore left shoulder afterwards. Is it just me gripping too tight or are there ergonomic issue in the 152?
My shoulders are fairly wide and it was getting quite cosy with the instructor in there with me.

[vw_nutter]

Hi ronniehuang

I'm learning in a 152 and although I'm quite tall I still manage to fit in (just!). I think I'm at the limit and in hindsight I wish I started in a PA28 which has loads more room than a 152. I'm almost at the end of my PPL training so I've just carried on. When I pass I'm going to swap over to a PA28 simply because of the extra room. I'm not sure about the cessna 172 in terms of being much bigger but I would imagine it won't be far off a PA28.

For me it was just that I had no choice at the time as my school only had 152s. I would suggest having a sit in a PA28 or 172 to compare although they are typically a little bit more expensive per hour. In terms of ergonomics its not too bad but some of the primary instruments are placed seemingly all over the place in a 152. PA28 layout is much better.

[Molesworth 1]

Unless you are very fat or very rich I would suggest you continue with the 152. I really don't agree that the layout of a PA28 is more logical. Being tall is actually an advantage in a 152. I have to use a cushion. The space is narrow, however. A good idea is to remove your jacket and put any large items in your pocket in your bag.

I also find the rudder pedals clunky in a PA28 and the rudder far less effective (this might depend on model)

[ronniehuang]

I think I might stay on the 152 for a few more lessons. I'm not that tall (5'7"), I just have broad shoulders :p. I am overweight (almost 190lb) and I have been flying with a reasonably thick jacket on. I will definately remember to take the jacket off next time I fly. I'll just put on a nice woollen thermal top instead. That should keep me warm enough. :)

[kevmusic]

I'll just put on a nice woollen thermal top instead. That should keep me warm enough. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/smile.gif

Your instructor's obviously not working you hard enough! Seriously though, I'm 6'2" and I have no problems in the 152. I suggest your sore shoulder might be the result of an involuntary effort to keep out of your imstructor's 'space', which, after an hour, could be hard work. Added to which are the tensions of your first few lessons (I was always being ticked off for being too tensed up - "RELAX!!" :p) so there could be your answer.

[Molesworth 1]

The 152 can certainly be cosy. Having an instructor with whom you are comfortable cuddling up is a good idea. This could depend on your sexual orientation :hmm:

[KeesM]

I fly a old model 150(the ones without the bended doors, 2" less cabin width) and being 1.88 m have little problems.
You can try to set the seats/ back rests uneven for a bit more shoulder room.

-Kees.

[Flying Binghi]

Having an instructor with whom you are comfortable cuddling up is a good idea

If the instructor is cuddly he/she is able to afford to eat so is obviously being paid above the industry standard.




Beer o'clock is my excuse...... :}





.

[ronniehuang]

I don't cuddle on a first date. ;)

If the instructor is cuddly he/she is able to afford to eat so is obviously being paid above the industry standard.Useful to know. :) If I ever 'make it' in the industry I might finally be able to get back to a normal weight.

As for my instructor, I would call him wiry rather than cuddly. And besides I don't swing that way. :p

As for my aches and pains, now that I think about it, I *might* be unconsiously trying to give the instructor more space. Aren't I considerate?

[Genghis the Engineer]

5ft 6" and 190lb; I'm 5ft 6" and 180lb with broad shoulders so shouldn't be far off your build.

I've been trained in the past in cockpit ergonomic assessment, and also have about 80 hours in Cessna singles - most of that in C150s and C152s. Whilst it's a little cramped, I actually think it's ergonomically pretty good, and slightly better than the PA28, although the PA28 does have a bit more shoulder and headroom.

Neck, back and shoulder pain are a classic symptom of stress, and you are doing something which is quite new to you. Also most new pilots struggle with the fact that you should only grip aircraft controls very lightly. So, my instinct is to believe that you are most likely suffering from a degree of self-induced skeleto-muscular pain, which will get better as you learn to overlap shoulders with your instructor slightly, and to relax much more about the flying - which let's face it, is a pretty alien environment at first.

It is usually best to dress to be slightly cool in the cockpit - being over warm tends to promote airsickness, as well as bulking you out a bit unnecessarily - you'll find that most (real) flying jackets are deliberately quite thin.

G

[Molesworth 1]

A better alternative to the 152 than the PA28 is the PA38 Tomahawk. This is a two seater with much more room than a 152. It was designed from suggestions by flight instructors! Sadly not many clubs in the UK have them.

[Genghis the Engineer]

A better alternative to the 152 than the PA28 is the PA38 Tomahawk. This is a two seater with much more room than a 152. It was designed from suggestions by flight instructors! Sadly not many clubs in the UK have them.


Very true, I have a soft spot for the PA38 - excellent ergonomics and view, and underpowered plus safe but slightly exciting stall characteristics in a way that teaches some good flying habits.

G

[Runaway Gun]

If you are 'avoiding' bumping shoulders with your instructor, then don't be so considerate. I'm sure he's had bigger guys. Just relax, and if your shoulders touch, then so be it.

[Hampshire Hog]

If you want an a/c to give you flying confidence, the PA28 is great. I'm not particularly tall or wide, but I always find C152s feel rather cramped. If you're nervous, you probably don't like being pushed against the door either!

[hightower1986]

I'm 6"2 and around 220lbs, found 1 cessna 150 slightly cramped and another a bit more roomy as the seats seemed lower?
Have you had the door come open on take off yet? That's always interesting the first few times! You'll get used to it and relax also!

[Sir George Cayley]

Mutual breathing can help.

When your instructor breathes out - you breathe in. Simples, shoulders not in conflict.

Also, from time to time just let go of the yoke and flex the fingers. It's a Tai Chi trick and really worked for me. (40 years ago)

SGC

[mad_jock]

In my professional opinion as an FI and pilot, Cessna 150/152's are smelly cramped heaps of poo and if I never have to instruct in them again I will be more than happy.

Go and find yourself a school with a tramahawk aka PA38 not only will you be more comfy learning but it will also teach you to fly better due to it having none of the nasty's designed out of it.

You will now get a heap of posts saying how horrible and dangerous PA38's are.

A PA38 with a none talent limited instructor who enjoys teaching in them, you can't get much better in main stream two seat training aircraft. You can get better in the likes of bulldogs etc but for standard school training aircraft its the best of a bad lot these days.

[Rhino1]

The Tomahawk is a good plane, despite a few quirks - mainly the T-tail that was not originally supposed to be on the plane. I did all of my PPL in one and would be happy to fly one again.

Ryan

[douglas.lindsay]

I get a stiff left arm from the 152. I think it's because the ailerons on the three at my school are adjusted for "the larger instructor", so I have to keep a bit of upward force on the yoke with my left hand all the time. I eventually found places to brace my left elbow during my solo xc :ok:

Funnily enough, I finished my PPL a couple of months ago and couldn't wait to leap into a PA28 - they just look better, and yes, you can both breathe in at the same time! But I surprised myself - after three or four flights in the PA28 I got back in a 152 and found I'd missed it, particularly that lovely vague "don't worry, I know you didn't really mean to press the left rudder pedal that hard, I'll just keep going this way shall I?" steering mechanism!

[Ryan5252]

You will now get a heap of posts saying how horrible and dangerous PA38's are.
If a garden shed could fly I think it would handle just like a PA38, what an ugly bird it is - inside and out!

I'm fortunate to have access to a 172 and PA28 though I am more than content with a C150/152 any day. (My 'professional' opinion as a pilot)
:ok:

[mad_jock]

I have had a shot of a shed aka the shorts 360 and it is remarkably similar apart from the PA38 is bit lighter on the controls and about 5% of the switches to play with. :p

If we were going on looks alone nobody would ever fly helicopters. But due to there handling characteristics people look below the surface. (Which does get better with a decent paint job which not many PA38's have)

[sprthompson]

I found my right shoulder quite stiff when I started learning in a 152. I think a bit part of it is tensions from 'stress' when you're learning, you relax soon enough and it's more comfy.

[mad_jock]

Its because most normal sized people have to sit at a slight angle to the controls just so they don't nick the other persons cockpit space.

I usually ended up with half my back up against the door, one hand over the back of the seat holding onto the fire bottle just so the student had some elbow room to make a pigs ear of it.

After a few lesson's you both know each other so without knowing it you cuddle up and don't mind infringing each others space. Although being a big shouldered lad with some students we wouldn't have been able to get the door shut if we had both sat straight on.

The only comfy way to fly one is by sitting in the middle and using a pedal each side for the rudder. Has the advantage as well that the CofG is in the middle so it fly's in a straight line as well.

Where as in the PA38 you only infringe the students space when they have a fat arse and you need to get at the trimmer. The rest of the time you have more than enough room to sit/slouch in what ever position you like. The other thing as well is that the PA38 seat travel is huge so you don't end up having to ram your feet under the pedals or get sore legs being unable to stretch them.

[ronniehuang]

Well, I've had another lesson today and I think I found a comfortable strategy. Firstly I'd like to say that wearing only a long sleeved polo shirt was actually warm enough. So no more thick jackets. No more death grips on the yoke. As a result of that my arm and wrist weren't sore at the end of the lesson. Lastly I moved the seat back by about 1". The result of this was to make me reach a little further for the controls. By doing that my torso was twisted just slightly but not enought to make it uncomfortable. This meant enough room for all. Downside of moving the seat back and inch now my leg is pretty much at full extension when pushing the rudder controls. Surprised but thankful, after an hour of flying I actually still felt quite good. Now, a few hours later, I'm still ok with no aches or pain. Thanks for the advice guys!

On a slight different and possibly off topic note, is it worth changing instructors just because of the the plane they use. Don't get me wrong, I am quite happy flying in a 152 given I haven't flown anything else and the instructor clearly knows his stuff but am I missing out not training on a different aircraft? There a other outfits in the area that use PA38's, 150/152 and DA20's. Being only 4 lessons in I'm not that attached to my current school yet.

[slam525i]

I think Clifford is right. If your left shoulder is hurting, you're probably not trimming the airplane out. To keep the airplane in cruise, you really only need to pinch the yoke with 2 fingers for minor adjustments. I remember the first flight or two, my left arm hurt too. Now I've gone too far the other way and sometimes get accused of flying the airplane with the trim only. :uhoh:

[Pilot DAR]

I sure read a lot of whining here (seems to be from instructors in particular) about the modest cabin space in the aircraft types generally used for flight training.

What I don't read about are the students and instructors saying how pleased they were to pay the extra to learn or teach in roomier planes... Cessna Centurion, Cherokee Six, Bonanza, or Rockwell Commander (which is spin approved for that element of the training). They just keep getting back into a 150, and complaining about it!

Then.... The student graduates from the "cramped" 150, and "moves up" to the Mooney! How was that for roomy?

Written by a proud 23 year C-150 owner, who is 6'3", 195 pounds. If I do feel a little cramped, and am flying when the depths of winter are behind me, I often fly with a door off (which I approved). The 150 is very roomy that way!

[mad_jock]

Well most of the moaning is coming from me as usual.

But we have already established you have the only none smelly C150 in the world DAR ;)

[Molesworth 1]

Apparently the window can be fully opened with the removal of one small screw.

[Pilot DAR]

But we have already established you have the only none smelly C150 in the world DAR http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wink2.gif

Well, it's actually one of four I fly which isn't smelly. That's probably 'cause I fly with the door off so much, it stays aired out!

Apparently the window can be fully opened with the removal of one small screw.

Though possible, not adviseable, unless you intend it to be semi permanent. There are other pieces to remove, and a fussy spring which tries to hide inside the frame. Once free, they can bang up in flight, and be scratched or cracked when they hit the door stop on the wing underside.

The 150/152 is what it is, one of a number of good, rugged trainers, which will keep you safe, teach you well, and make you appreciate the next larger plane you get to fly!

[Piper19]

Probably not your case, but I still want to mention it. I had severe shoulder/neck pain when flying a 172, especially on high flights or cold days. I began to pay attention to sit unstressed, but the pain got worse. Untill all of my passengers in the back complained about having it cold. An instructor told me that this is typical for 172's, the heating doesn't reach the back as should be.
Thus came the idea that my pain could result from the cold air on my back (blowing through the door seals on my shoulder). Fixed this, pain gone.

Otherwise, pay attention that you don't want to continuously raise yourself to see over the instrument panel, if you're too short. An instructor once told me to act as a potato bag. Continuously be aware of the stress in your body and work on it to take it away, just as playing an instrument. Best advice I ever had, that's why experts can make difficult things look easy.