Airmanship.

[sennadog]

I realise that I am just a lowly PPL student with only 10 hours to my name but can I just ask people to keep a better look out when flying.

I was with my instructor down at Lydd last Saturday and I was amazed at the attitude (or lack of it) towards keeping an eye out for other aircraft. I was second in the circuit when one muppet decided to totally ignore all other aircraft and cut in ahead of us on final. He was waaaaay too close and nearly succeeded in putting it on top of another a/c that was taking off.

On the return journey to Redhill, we were "carved up" by a helicopter who clearly hadn't bothered to look round and check for others in the vicinity!

It seems to me that some PPLs just become oblvious to others in the air once they pass their exams.

[Skylark4]

Sennadog,. . Don`t blame it all on PPLs. The chopper was more likely to be a CPL.. .I had an airprox with a chopper at 400 ft on the climb out. At the subsequent enquiry he said he was programming his GPS at the time and didn`t realise that the airfield was active. Never did find out what he was doing cruising cross country at 400 ft though.. .The `prox` was about 30 ft exactly the same level by the way. It also taught me that your lookout needs to be 360 degrees too, he came at us from the port rear quarter.

Mike W

[sennadog]

Skylark, I'm not. The helo was a separate incident and was much later in the flight. I'm not blaming PPLs as such - I'm just trying to remind everyone in general that one element of good airmanship is to maintain a good look out for other aircraft.

The circuit at Lydd was generally fine apart from some of the "more experienced" pilots who appeared to be a bit clueless IMO.

[Evo7]

It happens - I had a similar experience recently when doing circuits at Goodwood. Some pillock gave the AFIS a bashing because they wouldn't clear him for take off - they can't, of course - and then did a sharp right hand turn after take off and cut straight in front of me when I was downwind.

Not quite as bad as the chap who kept trying to land on 28 when 32 was the active runway. After a couple of attempts AFIS asked him if he had enough fuel to go back where he came from. Affirm came the reply, after which it was "suggested" that he might return there.... <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

[Spacer]

Yep. Been there, done that. Finsishing my skill test, and on finals at about 500ft I had a microlight cut in right infront of me. He had no idea I was there. I've also heard of a few peaches, but that's another story...

[sennadog]

Evo. <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> Like the story.

[Evo7]

It wasn't me, by the way... <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

[Fox_4]

A good lookout is imperrative! No matter where you are - low level (&lt;2000`)midweek especially (watch out for the fast movers), but a good listen out and lookout in any airspace is always important. I am not saying sacrifice good flying skills at important stages of flight but like Spacers example, you never know when other aircraft flown by dullards will pitch up right in your HUD. Especially the civvies that think its alright to disregard that MATZ! . .After you have been scared a few times I bet your lookout will be improved exponentially.

Lose sight, lose fight!

[You want it when?]

Cranfield is a busy training drome, I've seen a lot of "interesting" things happen but two RT calls come to mind from last summer.

Tower: "G-XX you have been ignoring my calls, permission to land is denied, get out of my circuit"

And whilst being no 1. on hold - a sudden flurry of "extend base", "overhsoot" and me to stop calls as a Cessna popped up over the fence and landed on the active. The tower called G-XX (a known airfield training plane) and asked for the instructor while the C-150 rolled out. "Do you want to tell your pupil what he did wrong or would you like me to?" I'd love ot have heard the rest of the conversation. :)

[eyeinthesky]

Not strictly on topic, but the mention of your incident happening at Lydd prompts me to comment upon my experience when I flew in there yesterday, and to wonder whether it might not have been a contributing factor.

One of the 'Lydd RADIO' operators yesterday was clearly a frustrated ATCO. In the short time it took for me to join and land yesterday, he gave 2 aircraft taxi INSTRUCTIONS, including hold position etc, and then as I turned final with one on for departure he said to the next one who reported ready: "After the departing aircraft, line up". I then called final (having not been able to get in before) and he told the subject aircraft to hold position. This is a very dangerous practise, in my opinion, and one which has been discussed on these fora many times before. Quite apart from the legality of what this guy is doing, I feel the danger is that the pilots will stop using the airmanship to which this thread refers as the subconciously feel that someone else is doing that for them, when in fact that person is probably not aware of the whole picture and certainly isn't qualified to take on that responsibility.

I am afraid that it is a common problem I experience at some smaller airfields with A/G or AFISO operators. By the way, by the time I departed the voice had changed and it was by the book.

[englishal]

In my opinion its probably better NOT to have a A/G operator. Its safer to let all pilots converse with each other on the Unicom. Stops all this confusion with pilots taking instructions and A/G operators issuing 'illegal' instructions. The best person for a weather advisory is the last pilot to land.....

[PPRuNe Dispatcher]

It's not just A/G operators that cause the problem. White Waltham is (usually) A/G and they take great care to be by the book.

Occasionally visiting aircraft cause problems by repeatedly asking for landing clearance etc. and can't seem to understand that an A/G station can't do that. Is this caused by the pilot not having read/forgotten CAP413 or is it caused by them in the past being in contact with too many "Heathrow Tower" A/G stations?

--Mik

[Whirlybird]

englishal and PPRuNe Dispatcher,

There would be no problem if A/G operators did what they were supposed to do and no more. Why can't they? It's all written down clearly. It's not rocket science, and it's not complicated.

At one point I started training to be an A/G operator at Sleap. The first day the chap who was teaching me was quite specific - never use the word clear, don't say "at your discretion" (only FISOs are supposed to do that, I think), just give runway in use, QFE, QNH, and wind info and similar. If asked for traffic info say something to the effect that there was traffic in the circuit and coming and going and they should keep a good lookout. Not difficult is it?

Right, the second time I had another guy. He cleared people to taxi, asked them to hold, gave them circuit instructions and so on. When I pointed out that this was illegal he just got annoyed; he'd been doing the job for 16 years and wasn't about to change for a new trainee A/G operator. He made me do as he said, but it was the last time. I never went back.

Why is he allowed to carry on? I don't know for sure, and it's another story anyway. But people like that shouldn't be allowed to. Apart from being illegal, they confuse pilots, and that could be dangerous.

[Zlin526]

Sennadog,

You keep looking out old chap, then you will spot these idiots long before they crash into you! Unfortunately, many of the flying clubs, schools and pilots of today have never even heard of 'Airmanship', let alone courteous flying! I suspect most of them have been to the school of lifemanship (Terry-Thomas in 'School for Scoundrels'), or failing that, the School of one-upmanship. I think it has something to do with the amount of jet-skiers taking up flying!

On the subject of A/G operators overstepping their authority, if you as the pilot believe a breach of the ANO and Air Traffic Regs has taken place, put in a Mandatory Occurence Report (MOR)to the Safety Information & Data Department at the CAA. If Pilots told somebody who could do something about it rather than just whingeing about it on PPRUNE, then it might prevent an accident. If there was to be a serious accident, which was due to A/G incompetence, then the powers that be may then decide we all need Air Traffic 'Control' and then we would all lose out!

And judging by the amount of Bill & Fred's useless chat on a certain 'unofficial' frequency, 'UNICOM' will never work here.

Rant over for now

[ 24 February 2002: Message edited by: Zlin526 ]

[ 24 February 2002: Message edited by: Zlin526 ]</p>

[Cat.S]

A good A/G is of great benefit. As a frequent visitor to Sleap I've found them very useful in the past and thankfully, I've never had the experience of a bad one. I've personally witnessed two potential accidents where pilots had not seen other aircraft on finals, cut into the circuit and been warned off by A/G. It's not nice to be just on very short finals and to look up to see another aircraft descending onto you from above and behind! Using a common air-air frequency is great providing other aircraft are 1) radio eqipped and 2) listening!

[sennadog]

Well, at least it seems as though I'm not alone here! I thought that maybe it's because I'm new to flying that I kept more of a look out due to unfamiliarity. It seems that there are just as many muppets in the air as on the Queen's Highway!

[eyeinthesky]

We heard you the first time!

[bertiethebadger]

Personaly, I think them whole A/G AFIS situation is pretty screwed up.

There is either an info service or an advice service ( seeing as the pilot is ultimately responsible ).

In the circuit of a lisenced field, If the tower says to do something & if airmanship & the law allows, it should be done. Easy really!...

...or, they tell you the weather & the runway, & for anyhting else, look out of the window!

There is too much of a grey area that we all fall into.

Ultimately, remember that you, as the pilot in charge, are that - the pilot in charge.

Take care!

BtB

[Final 3 Greens]

Hey guys

Never forget that you as PIC have the ultimate responsibility to keep your a/c and souls on board safe.

This was brought home to me a few years ago when cleared to land by ATC at a regional airfield and encountering traffic flying UP the same glideslope that I was descending!

Fortunately good VMC and a good lookout avoided a bang, but the susbequent airprox investigation was most interesting.

The buck stops in the LHS.

Fly safe....

[Chilli Monster]

Final 3 Greens

I think you should read the latest posting on the other <a href="http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=53&t=001300" target="_blank">Airmanship</a> thread.

It's alright saying the ultimate responsibility rests with the PiC, but it would be nice if some were capable of conducting themselves in a manner commensurate with that responsibility!

CM

[ 28 February 2002: Message edited by: Chilli Monster ]</p>

[DOC.400]

SENNADOG

You'll get used to it.........

DOC

[FNG]

Sennadog, the incidents you describe do sound like bad manners/poor lookout, but one thing to bear in mind is that it can in some circumstances be safe and appropriate not to fly the circuit in exactly the way that you do when learning. What may seem to a student or low hours PPL to be cutting in may be a faster aircraft overtaking safely.

. .At Waltham, which, as pointed out above, operates excellent by the book A/G, you sometimes hear people flying wide downwinds gripe about aircraft joining from overhead and quite legitimately positioning for a tighter downwind ahead of the other aircraft. I once heard a slow aircraft announce that he would, quite sensibly, make one orbit in circuit direction on downwind, to allow a fast complex to pass him. The complex then complained of an aircraft flying the wrong way in the circuit nd threatened an airprox, which was nonsense. The point here is that the pilot in the slow machine was using eyes, ears and judgment, the other one was simply following his set way of doing a circuit, and not even paying attention to other people's transmissions.

Another point is that, as Girl Flyday has observed on the other airmanship thread, see and avoid is no guarantee of safety: anyone who says that he/she has never been surprised by another aircraft hoving into view at closeish range is either fibbing or has Superman-vision and reflexes.

As for filing mandatory reports and so forth, I would suggest that, unless something very dire has occurred, you might be better off filing a CHIRP. These are often followed up and do achieve results, for example in relation to A/G or FISO operators overstepping the boundariers. A system which does not operate on the blame culture can sometimes be more productive of positive change than one which forces people onto the defensive.

[niknak]

Sennadog - Although the instances you and others describe are unacceptable and just poor airmanship, the fact is that they are relatively rare and are not representitive of the generally high standard of flying in the UK.. .In 20 years of atco - ing and flying (ppl), working at busy airfields inside and outside controlled airspace, I can count the number of occasions on one hand when I've had to take avoiding action either as an atco or pilot.. .I wouldn't get too vexed about it, as you can see from the posts some people do and they'll worry their lives away. Filing paperwork only has a purpose if someone deliberately breaks the rules or there is a very valid safety issue which we can all learn from.

[Final 3 Greens]

Chilli Monster. .. .Thanks for pasting the link to the other threads which I mad missed.. .. .Unbelievable stuff!. .. .I had these sort of pilots in mind when I said that the buck stops in the LHS - even if some of them don't seem to practice good airmanship, we still have to avoid the b*ggers.. .. .I would agree though that there is a problem if an aircraft is making an approach in IMC and another a/c flies through the area - difficult to see and avoid, worse if there is no Radar to provide separartion.. . . . <small>[ 04 March 2002, 10:08: Message edited by: Final 3 Greens ]</small>

[sennadog]

Yeah well. I've not got a real beef about it other than being surprised that there are as many muppets in the air as on the road. I just thought that a PPL being relatively harder to obtain than a Driving Licence would lead to a "better standard of driving"! . .. .I have to say that the guys in the Tower at Lydd are pretty good though. For a novice student like myself it's reassuring to hear the laid back but switched on voices coming through my headset - helps me to relax a bit anyway.

[julian storey]

In reply to Eyeinthesky's observation about Lydd radio, my understanding was that Lydd Operated a Flight Information Service and not just an A/G service.. .. .A FISO CAN control and issue positive instructions to aircraft, but ONLY whilst they are on the ground. Once an aircraft reaches the hold they cease to be under the FISO's control.. .. .Julian

[eyeinthesky]

Julian: I am aware of that. I addressed them on first call as 'Information' and the response was from 'Radio', hence my comments. But even if it WAS Information, it was ILLEGAL and DANGEROUS to give line up instructions.