NPPL vs PPL advice please

[SunnyDayInWiltshire]

I've recently completed my solo and now doing more time in the circuit. I've completed about 20 hours and also passed most of the ground school exams over the last 6 months. My instructor tells me I'm coming up to the decision point where I can either go for NPPL or jump straight to PPL. What factors should I take into account?

Long term, I do plan to take the PPL and would like IMC and night too - the weather in UK would make IMC helpful and increase days I could fly. My main goal is to be able to fly to other airports, mainly in UK, possible occasional daytrips to France (I've heard NPPL can do this with prior permission), some with passengers under VFR. I'd be interested in buying a share in a 4 seater once passed my test (assuming this can be done without PPL and/or 100 hours logged). One option might be to do NPPL this year, PPL next and IMC following - this would spread the load, cost and also allow me to enjoy it more than just doing training all the time. Have others done this in stages vs going straight to PPL?

[Mariner9]

A NPPL would get you your licence quicker and cheaper than a PPL, but only because you potentially fly less hours to licence issue. To get say 100 hours in would of course cost pretty much the same by either route.

A NPPL then a PPL would certainly cost you more in the long run.

If, as you suggest, you may want night/IMC ratings in the future you would be best served by going straight for a PPL from the start in my view.

Good luck with the training whatever route you chose :ok:

[ak7274]

PPL............ no question. If you do the minimum NPPL syllabus it means doing a 100 nm xc, but the ppl is 150nm,so why do the 100?.........I did and it was a mistake, as I now fly almost always with a friend and can't be ar$ed to fly a 150nm solo xc to qualify the PPL. The minimum 32 hours soon expands to 35 then 40 then 50 therefore the minimum hours for a PPL are soon achieved.

In my defence I hold a Glider Pilots License which meant that I could do the NPPL in a vastly reduced minimum compared to the PPL.

If there is no medical reason to hold you back and money isn't too limited........go PPL

[batninth]

SDIW,

I set off on the NPPL path with a view to getting qualified as quickly as possible & then adding the next steps as I went along. By the time I soloed at ~20 hours, I had enough experience to decide that my flying would be satisfied with daytime VFR, and thus stuck at NPPL.

Given the point that you are at with your flying I'd suggest that you probably have enough experience to know what you want to do next, in fact you clearly state that in your posting. As such I agree with the others, you aspire to do a lot more with your flying and so the PPL looks a much better route for what you want to do.

Good luck with it :)

[cct]

Either way - in two years time it will all change with EASA licences

I was taking too long a few years ago, so I opted for the full JAR, but after a couple of months I lost my medical - still not got it back, so it made little difference...

Look at the EASA proposals, and decide if you need the full JAR, or just a LAPL (sic) in which case go for the NPPL.

It is easy to say you want the extra, but unless you have a good budget, the cheaper route makes a lot of sense

Best of luck!

[Whopity]

Long term, I do plan to take the PPLQuestion answered!A NPPL would get you your licence quicker and cheaper than a PPL,Do you have any evidence to support this? My experience says it will take the same time and cost virtually the same. The standard required for either licence is the same, the only real difference is that you dont need to do Ex 19 or radio nav for a NPPL. If you do both NPPL then PPL it will definitely cost you more.

[SunnyDayInWiltshire]

A somewhat belated thanks to those who answered my query.

I wanted to talk this through with my instructor, who provided his insight into the two options. He took the same line as Whopity - saying that regardless of whether it's NPPL or PPL, you still have to learn to fly to a safe standard. In his experience, this takes pretty much the same number of hours - only a very few exceptional pupils of his (1-2%) would have achieved this in the theoretical hours stated in the NPPL syllabus.

This suggests that for mere mortals like me the additional cost of PPL involves perhaps 2-3 additional hours of instruction on Ex 19 and radio nav. The General Skills Test for PPL is a slightly different format, but similar content and flying standard.

He also commented that learning in a Flexwing and then transferring to SEP may also end up taking many hours and overall cost just as much or more. (Bit late for me to take that option anyway, but nice to have that reconfirmed).

This is quite different from the impression I had formed earlier, that an NPPL might be a lower cost stepping stone towards PPL. He advised that unless there were medical reasons, going for PPL would be a better option. As mentioned by others in this thread, it also opens the door to further opportunities in the future.

[J.A.F.O.]

For you I'm sure that PPL is the way to go but I don't agree that people should only consider the NPPL for medical reasons.

If all you want to do is bimble around day VFR with up to 3 mates then the NPPL is simpler merely because you don't have to faff around with the annual medical and the amount you'd spend on that pays for your time with an instructor.

So, while I fully accept that the costs difference to get the licence is minimal, the cost to keep your licence valid (especially given microlight and SLMG allowances) can be considerably lower or, to look at it the other way round, the costs can stay the same for considerably more hours.

As I say if you're a day VFR bimbler who might want to go abroad once or twice (and I think that's a fair number of private flyers) then I really don't see why you'd want the added expense and embuggerance of the PPL.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

If all you want to do is bimble around day VFR with up to 3 mates then the NPPL is simpler merely because you don't have to faff around with the annual medical
You don't have to get an annual medical with a PPL. Once you've got the PPL you can forget the PPL medicals and fly on an NPPL medical declaration provided you don't mind sticking to the NPPL rules.

With the advantage that you can upgrade yourself to full PPL privileges any time you like just by going and getting a medical.

[Slopey]

because you don't have to faff around with the annual medical

You also don't need an annual medical depending on your age.

< 40, validity is 5 years. 40-50, it's two years, and 50+ annually.

So you don't need a medical every year unless for some reason you have a Class 1, or you're over 50.

[tow1709]

I am over 50, and learning to fly for fun rather than as a stepping stone to a career in aviation.

I have done my first solo and the solo circuit consolidation work, and am now doing navigation exercises.

I turned up for my lesson yesterday, with the expectation that my instructor would send me out solo for the first time into the big wide world outside the circuit - just a short trip around the periphery of a nearby big town, so little chance of getting lost! We had spoken about it on the previous lesson.

However on checking my paperwork he said that he had not realised that I had an NPPL medical certificate - the one you get from your GP.
He went on to say that with only that certificate and the implication that I was doing an NPPL rather than a PPL, he was not allowed to send me solo outside the circuit unless I had a nav checkout ( I think he said) with a qualified examiner first.

The upshot is that if I want to do this first solo navex, I have either got to get myself a class 2 medical certificate (£100 - £150), or fork out for an extra flight beforehand ( er, £100 - £150) so the cost is about the same.

I have a couple of questions. First is my instructor right? Second, I used to have a class 2 medical but it lapsed a couple of years ago. Will a new one count as a renewal, or will I start again from scratch? I don't anticipate any problems in passing the medical, so that is not an issue.

In my own particular case, my inclination is to go for the PPL, and then if after getting my licence I find I am not making full use of its privileges and don't want to pay for class 2 renewal every year, I could always "downgrade" myself and just fly within NPPL limits as Gertrude said yesterday, and go back to getting sign-offs from my GP at £25 every 5 years.

TOW.

[BEagle]

He went on to say that with only that certificate and the implication that I was doing an NPPL rather than a PPL, he was not allowed to send me solo outside the circuit unless I had a nav checkout ( I think he said) with a qualified examiner first.

What utter nonsense! Unless your club has some draconian local rule, your instructor was talking through his hat!

Were you planning to fly a formal pilot navigation exercise, or just Ex14B solo? I.e., to leave the circuit, fly some general handling in the local area, then rejoin the circuit?

The only NPPL requirement for navigation assessment by an Authorised Examiner is the Navigation Skill Test which must be flown before the qualifying cross-country - and you certainly weren't about to fly that!

After completing Ex14B, you should be learning steep turns and PFLs before starting on pilot navigation, incidentally.

Whether you continue with your NPPL training or decide upon JAR-FCL PPL(A) training is up to you - we don't know what EASA plans for the NPPL yet.

Additionally, there may well be changes to the ORS4 No.756 exemption arrangements this August when it is due for re-issue. It was only ever intended for pilots with valid licences and ratings who either could no longer hold, or who chose not to continue to hold, JAA Class 2 medical certificates - and permits them to continue to fly SEP aircraft but restricted to SSEA privileges in circumstances described in the ORS4 No.756 exemption document.

[tow1709]

BEagle wrote:


...Ex 14B solo...to leave the circuit, fly some general handling in the local area, then rejoin the circuit?

Yes, that was the plan. I am going to query this with the CFI tomorrow. I think my instructor has misunderstood something - I don't see why I require a check ride with an examiner prior to some 14B just because I only have an NPPL medical ticket rather than a class 2.

...flown before the qualifying cross-country - and you certainly weren't about to fly that!

Correct


After completing Ex14B, you should be learning steep turns and PFLs before starting on pilot navigation, incidentally.



I have had training in both the above and spiral dive recovery too - we did some more yesterday. In fact very early on in my training, about fourth or fifth lesson, an instructor who was standing in for my then regular one had me doing PFL's before I had ever done a real "ordinary" landing by myself. I thought it was a bit odd at the time, but I coped all right, and now PFL's don't particularly worry me, although like everyone else I hope I never have to do it for real!

[patowalker]

You mention in your first post that you understand you can fly to France on an NPPL.

This is not the case, although the LAA has been in discussions with the DGAC with a view to getting the NPPL accepted in France with an ICAO compliant medical, which does not necessarily mean a JAA-FCL Class 2 medical.

[IO540]

If all you want to do is bimble around day VFR with up to 3 matesThere are 2 problems with that:

The candidate cannot be sure up front that is all he will want to be doing.

The "3 mates" will get bored after the first couple of flights, especially if they are asked to cough up 75% of the cost of the flight. Then you will fly with 3 other mates. Soon, you run out of mates.

The vast majority of new license holders pack it all in within a year or so. It's a really sad state of affairs. There are numerous reasons for this - all discussed here many times in the past - but limiting one's license privileges in such a big way, for the very small saving on the initial effort, is IMHO a bad idea.

It is possible to fly to France on an NPPL, all you need to do is ask the French for permission.True, and same is true of Mongolia, Iran, in fact every other country. You just need to get permission........... That is after you have sorted out PPR, PNR, checked out avgas, opening hours, all the other crap. In this business, the last thing one needs is to do yet more crap before flying somewhere.

And flying abroad is one of the huge attractions of flying. If I look at the arrivals and departures at my local airfield (a busy GA one) at any given instant, about 90-95% of them could have been driven in a car in less time. I know a lot of people enjoy just going up for a flight (I certainly do) but if all one ever does is fly at that level, the whole activity is - for many - a constant struggle against boredom.

No wonder so many give up so soon.

Whereas going abroad delivers a utility value which no other means of travel can get anywhere near. France for lunch. How else could you do that? If you stay overnight, the options widen dramatically.

The NPPL was conceived by the flight training industry, to deliver a "product" which they could stick on their price list, with a lower £ figure next to it than the normal PPL. Nobody ever thought about its value, and unsuprisingly the great majority of takers were existing pilots who could no longer get the CAA Class 2 medical.

What the industry should have done instead was to ask itself "what can we do to make fewer people chuck it in the moment they have done the skills test". But the industry has no mandate to do that. They have had your £8000 or so.

[bern444]

Our club near London uses a database to do the housekeeping, and I've just this morning been looking at a few statistics. We moved to the computer system in Dec 2008 and since then amongst the destinations have been...

Bembridge 166 times, Popham 43, Goodwood 30, Blackbush 22, Le Touquet 6, Jersey 2, Rufford, Stoke Golding and Bournemouth 1 each.

There are a good few more places that people have been, of course, but very few outside the UK, even though France is just 1hr 20 away. People used to go further, but that was before EasyJet and Ryanair made the difference in cost of, say, getting to the south of France so great that it isn't worth using a PA28 or whatever. Club members often talk about wanting to tour long distances, but they don't actually do it. Several years ago I was setting off for Ostende and needed to go back through the paper records to find when the aircraft last went abroad. It turned out to be me to Le Touquet a year earlier.

B

[IO540]

There are a fair few syndicates whose profile is like that. They often have lots of members; sometimes 20-30. Most of their members are people who just want to go up for a short flight. Most of them are also severely hard-up and that is all they can afford to do.

This is fair enough - different people have their boats floated in different ways - but I would not recommend a new pilot to limit his horizons to something like that.

However I fully accept that if say a Warrior is what you have, then anything beyond N France is hard work. I do a lot of long distance touring but have a plane which can do 1300nm (TB20) and that makes things much easier.

[tow1709]

Airpolice wrote As for the point about leaving the local area, this has to be a club rule or just something that came to instructor in a dream. Time to look at another school it seems.

No, I don't think he dreamed it, but may have come to a similar conclusion to GusHoneybun who wrote in pprune on 4 April 20051) First solo. If your first solo is on a HGV medical (i.e. NPPL medical) then you are then limited to completing the training as an NPPL. However, if you hold a class two medical then the point at which your decision is made is....

2) First solo Nav. There is a navigation skills test that you need to pass before you can go on solo nav's as a NPPL. If you sit this test before you first solo nav, then you can only complete your training under the NPPL system.

If you have held a class 2 medical since you first went solo, and you haven't sat a Nav skills test, then as far as I can see you can complete your training under the JAR PPL system, with all of your training counting towards the 45 hours required.


To which BEagle responded No, the NST is taken before the NPPL Q X-C, not before 'any' NPPL solo navigation.


I think my instructor believes that a local bimble outside of the circuit counts as "solo navigation" as per GH's point 2 above and I need an NST before I can do it. But if my class2 had still been current then I wouldn't.

My own first solo was done under an NPPL "HGV" ticket, but I don't think this commits me to being an NPPL forever, which is what GH said in his first point.

I guess what I really want to know is if I now do all the exams and airborne tests as if I was going for a PPL, then how critical is the timing of my Class2 medical if I want to continue down the PPL route? Do I have to get it right now, or can it wait until one or more of the formal air work tests/assessments have been done?

[J.A.F.O.]

IO

The vast majority of new license holders pack it all in within a year or so. It's a really sad state of affairs. There are numerous reasons for this - all discussed here many times in the past - but limiting one's license privileges in such a big way, for the very small saving on the initial effort, is IMHO a bad idea.

Just how many people, as a percentage of active private flyers, use any privileges outside those of the SSEA licence?

As Bern says, not many and if there are a thousand things to think of when going abroad then 1001 is hardly stretching you too far.

It's horses for courses and I fully accept that there are many for whom the PPL is the only reasonable choice but that doesn't mean that there aren't a similar number for whom the NPPL would be just as reasonable.

I fully agree with you, though, that the flight training industry seems to forget about people after the licence issue and then wonder why those people forget about them.

Oh, and tow1709, your instructor is talking bollox.

[bern444]

if say a Warrior is what you have, then anything beyond N France is hard work. I do a lot of long distance touring but have a plane which can do 1300nm (TB20) and that makes things much easier.I think it might be more about money than how fast the aircraft can go - for most of our members the 100-and-something pounds per hour is a very strong limiting factor - especially as £100 will take you a good long way on EasyRyan.

Personally, I just love flying - I don't need to cross 1000 miles of fields and houses to have fun. A trip to the Needles (again) on a bright sunny day sets me up for days.

B

[Lister Noble]

I really am getting fed up with those who think it is pointless to actually just go up and fly for the pure pleasure of it.
That is exactly why I learned to fly,just to fly,get it?
If I want to go to Paris,Madrid or Milan,?
Ryanair and a gin and tonic.
Not piss**g around with lots of planning,costing loads of dosh ,just to post on here that I've done it.
:)

[airpolice]

Lister, You've hit the nail on the head. There must be loads of us old guys who just want to fly because we can. I normally land at the airfield I took off from, even if only because that's where my car is, and I need it to get back home.

There's loads of fun in flying, even under the "restrictions" of an NPPL. I can see that the youngsters who want to carve out a career in aviation may want to get more out of a couple of hours in the sky, but I am happy just to visit friends or fly over my house and the house of my passengers for the day.

I suspect that the people who give up after a few years should probably not have taken it up in the first place, but they were not to know that until they had experienced it.

[IO540]

I really am getting fed up with those who think it is pointless to actually just go up and fly for the pure pleasure of it.
That is exactly why I learned to fly,just to fly,get it?
If I want to go to Paris,Madrid or Milan,?
Ryanair and a gin and tonic.
Not piss**g around with lots of planning,costing loads of dosh ,just to post on here that I've done it.

OK. No point in encouraging anybody to be aspirational. It would be very un-British to do so, after all. Let's forget about flying abroad - nobody wants to do that.

:ugh:

Let's look at it more practically.

Let's say you want to fly from say Goodwood to say Welshpool. That route is, as far as I can tell, wholly within the UK so should meet the non-aspirational requirement.

What exact difference in skills which need to be learnt to fly that route safely and confidently will be involved if the pilot does

- a PPL
- an NPPL

?

[bern444]

OK. No point in encouraging anybody to be aspirational. It would be very un-British to do so, after all. Let's forget about flying abroad - nobody wants to do that.For me it's not any lack of aspiration, it's just that flying long distances over fields and houses at 10,000 ft isn't where my aspirations lie. Just a personal thing, you understand. If I want to turn on the autopilot and burn £2-£3 per minute I can employ someone do that whilst I sit in reasonable comfort eating a sandwich .

And my club statistics agree with you - no-one want to fly abroad. Around 120 pilots fly with us, so it's not a bad sample.

I switched to an NPPL when I could because the medical was a significant part of the hourly rate that I paid, and because I'd flown abroad a few times, and Europe is Europe however you get there. So I dropped that privilege and keep the one that allows me to get into the air and fly. If I lived further from London I'd switch to microlight and save more money, but parking around here costs a fortune.

B

[BEagle]

Let's say you want to fly from say Goodwood to say Welshpool.

Leave Goodwood on track for the Faringdon VRP at Brize. Climb to about 2000ft RPS. A little after Petersfield, keep a good look out for Lasham's gliders, then call Odiham and advise crossing the MATZ stub on the western edge of Basingstoke. After Newbury, call Brize Radar and ask to cross the CTR VFR from Faringdon VRP to Northleach VRP. Adjust altitude if directed, after Northleach advise Staverton passing to the east en-route Great Malvern, Ludlow and on to Welshpool. After crossing the M5, enjoy the view until joining overhead at Welshpool.

Lots of delta-bravo landmarks, simple enough route. Easily do-able by the holder of an NPPL or a JAR-FCL PPL.

[851Pilot]

Hi folks,

Just to add my 10 pence worth on a few issues discussed here...

Firstly - the comment that it was created by the training industry to tick boxes:

Well - as someone who'd been told all his life he'd never get a licence because of one weak eye the NPPL has enabled me (and, I'm sure, many others) to achieve a life long dream that was once a closed off realm. If I ever meet the person who came up with the idea I owe them copious amounts of beer!

So decision on which licence was an easy one for me!

Secondly - training:

Solo Nav - there does seem to be confusion here.

My instructor and CFIs interpretation of the rules (bearing in mind they hadn't done the NPPL syllabus with a student up until that point) was that I had to do an air test with CFI prior to any solo nav exercises (not just qualifying x-country).

I did this last December and it was a great experience. IMHO doing the Nav part of the skills test at that point actually makes a lot more sense than doing it at the end. And that test was the same as the Nav test for the JAR PPL.

Partly because I requested it - all of my testing/training was done to JAR PPL Standard (it appears to be pretty well the same anyway) - so included radio nav aids, instrument appreciation, etc..

We did try to do the full 150 nm JAR X-Country Qualifier - but ended up doing a slightly shorter route of about 130 nm due to availabilities/met on the day.

Apart from that - did the same as the JAR PPL and qualled after about 50 hours (although I did have a gap of nearly a year from first training to picking it up again - the money ran dry syndrome).

So qualled end April and happily scooting around since - with first pax flown (I think I'm still smiling from the first one!)

As to limits to UK airspace - suits me fine for now. Should be converted onto Warrior this week - then taildragger training on clubs Citabria. I have an eye on doing an aerobatics course after that. But I am looking forward in anticipation to this new European Sport Pilot licence and the possibilities that might bring.

Yes - I'd love to fly overseas at some point - but it's not the end of the world if I can't...

For me - the privileges my shiny new NPPL has given me are priceless...

[BEagle]

My instructor and CFIs interpretation of the rules (bearing in mind they hadn't done the NPPL syllabus with a student up until that point) was that I had to do an air test with CFI prior to any solo nav exercises (not just qualifying x-country).

Whence did they get that daft notion?

[851Pilot]

Hi BEagle,

I did say 'interpretation'... :)

Suited me fine though as it helped hugely with confidence the first time I did venture off out of the circuit on my own!

[cats_five]

Leave Goodwood on track for the Faringdon VRP at Brize. Climb to about 2000ft RPS. A little after Petersfield, keep a good look out for Lasham's gliders
<snip>

I agree that local to Lasham the concentration is likely to be higher. However, the clubs at Parham and Ringmer are much closer to Goodwood, and there are several other clubs en-route.

Also, not being near a marked gliding site doesn't mean no gliders. If it's a good day there will almost certainly be be gliders flying XC.

So, there are potentially gliders to look out for all over the place, not just after Petersfield.

[IO540]

For me it's not any lack of aspiration, it's just that flying long distances over fields and houses at 10,000 ft isn't where my aspirations lie. Just a personal thing, you understand.

That's not actually what I do (or like to do) but fair enough :)

When I sit at FL100-FL190 it is perhaps over the Alps, taking pics of the mountains. That's pretty good.

Long distance IFR above a solid overcast is totally boring, and most flight over N France is totally boring.

And my club statistics agree with you - no-one want to fly abroad. Around 120 pilots fly with us, so it's not a bad sample.

I am sure there are many syndicates which are indeed like that. They are mostly large groups with resulting very low hourly cost, which appeals to many people. Poor access so good only for short jollies, but it is cheap flying, and this has its place in the GA community. Most of the most visible bit of UK GA is indeed skint. But I also know of loads of counter examples - people who go places and enjoy the challenge.

It does cost more money to do the more interesting stuff; I would not deny that. I am fortunate I can afford it. But to put this in perspective, my two sons have just left private schooling and I could do 3x more flying now that I do already, on the money saved.

What I think is wrong is assuming that everybody posting on here is skint, and advising them on thas basis as a default. Some are, some are not. I am in touch with many many pilots and while some are skint, many are not, but even those who are not generally find it hard to do interesting stuff because their training was too basic for it. The whole business is geared up for the lowest common denominator...

It is difficult because most people enquiring post one-liners, more or less, and everybody jumps in trying to guess what the man wants to do / is able to afford. That's why my first question tends to be "what is your budget"?

[J.A.F.O.]

That's why my first question tends to be "what is your budget"?

I'm sure it is; some people know the cost of everything and the value of nothing.

As to your Goodwood to Welshpool question I fail to see your point, I don't believe anyone has suggested that there is a difference in skill level.

To suggest that people who do not wish to fly abroad lack aspiration or money is thoroughly ridiculous. I don't know when the day will come when you will realise that different people want different things from their lives and from their flying. The reason that we are not all IO540 is not because we can't afford it but because we do not want to be. Now I don't give a badger's bum what you want to do but please stop berating those who want different things out of life - they are not wrong they are merely different - thank God.

[NazgulAir]

What I think is wrong is assuming that everybody posting on here is skint... Private flying is surely one of those activities that could gobble up all your pennies. After the flying, doing interesting trips, going for ratings, buying a plane, going places, paying the maintenance bills, getting useful gizmos and thingycumbobs like GPSes PLBs lifejackets oxygen and an engine monitor, only very rich people would have any money left over.

[Lister Noble]

I've owned and sailed reasonable sized boats=lots of fun,travelled a lot and quite expensive
I've owned and raced single seater,historic and vintage cars=lots of fun but horrendously expensive
I own 1/14th of a 1942 L4 Cub=lots of fun and the cheapest by far of the three pastimes.
We pay £35 per hour all in,including fuel,hangarage,insurance and all maintenance,it can't get much cheaper than that.
We meet once a year to see how the accounts are,some years we all chip in another £2-300,some years nothing,and we have a very healthy replacement engine fund.
Yes,I know we are fortunate,but it shows that you can have affordable flying,in our case in a really nice historic aircraft.
There are lots of groups around or you can form one.
The most important thing is to have really nice trustworthy people in the group
Out of the 14 members,around 6 of us fly regularly,we have internet booking and as far as I can see it's nearly always available when I want to fly,but being semi retired I can chose when to do that.
If you want shiny toys with glass cockpits then that's another thing.
Lister:)

[NazgulAir]

You're so right, there are other expensive hobbies that can leave a deeper hole in your pocket.
Wow. 35 an hour all-in. Yes, we have been victims of wanting speed, range, altitude, payload (for which we are paying ourselves) and LOCATION... if you're not so picky pure basic flying fun need not be expensive or require overkill licensing.
Nazgul "Be Careful What You Wish For" Airlines