The same old rant, different year, different location

[stiknruda]

About this time last year I posted a topic on folk landing long..... .. .I was at EBGB yesterday and watched one aircraft (PA28 type) land fast and long on r/way 15 (500 metres of tarmac). The chap only just managed to stop it before it ran off the end.. .. .Two sips of coffee later and another aircraft (plastic fantastic nosewheel) arrived too fast, eventually got the wheels into the tarmac at about two thirds of the way down the runway and rather than taking power and going around, promptly ran off the end into the mud.. .. .A few minutes later - a chap arrived in a high performance taildragger, put the aircraft down on the numbers and turned off at the intersection, thereby proving that it can be done!. .. .There was also the young FI trying to hand swing a visiting Robin complete with student pilot on board. Poor chap had obviously never been properly taught how to do it - though to be fair he was safe. That the training aeroplane had just landed after a 30 minute flight then did not sufficient charge to turn the engine over is one thing to ponder. Quite another is that he was trying to swing a visibly flooded engine on both mags. He than tried to blow the fuel out with the throttle closed.. .. .Am I alone in thinking that training standards are slipping? . .. .I hope that the NPPL syllabus puts the emphasis onto grass-roots instruction and teaches those time-honoured skills that aviators from earlier decades learned.. .. .Stik. .. .The only hard thing about flying is the ground!

[Jetscream 32]

Hear Hear,. .. .Was working in the tower @ Bembridge a few years back, and we had them everyday, a constant source of entertainment.. .. .Common sense has now all but gone in aviation due to commercial pandering to the airlines and JAR.. .. .Simple Question:. .. .What gives you the right, to teach people how to fly an aircraft when you have just finished your advanced PPL yourself. You finish a years spell in the class, do a miniscule amount of flying, which you think you can call experience, then think your top-gun and either deserve a right hand seat job flying 150 pax, or resign yourself to teaching innocent people who want to learn how to fly, when you barely know yourself?. .. .Elementary flying skills, like horizons, reference points, approach speeds, lookout, and the round out are a farce in modern day training.. .. .When schools realise that if they pay a decent instructor wage they will get decent instructors that actually take pride in the training they give and will not be off at the first opportunity, the schools will get decent reputation and good business.. .. .Ho hum - <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" />

[bertiethebadger]

I think part of the problem is that we are at the start of the good weather & people are taking to the air after a few months off. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" /> . .. .Sounds a lot like me yesterday. Realising this before starting, I done some circuits and, like your friend, some of the first landing were a bit fast & further down the runway than I would like <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="confused.gif" /> . And unlike your friend, I did go around once ( twice more due to ac on the runway <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="mad.gif" /> ).. .. .I think that, at this time of year, we all have to be a bit cautious. One of my enforced go arounds was due to an aircraft landing too far down the runway & not getting off in time. The other was due to an ac getting on the runway to take off & sitting there.. .. .And finally, I just thought I'd mention. I finihed off with my last 3 landings on or v.near the numbers. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> . .. .BtB

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

I know it's an old rant, but it's not getting any better. Why aren't pilots taught to flare properly when landing? Stop by any GA field and watch the Pipers and Cessnas - it is *extremely* rare to see one that doesn't land on all 3 wheels at once. No attempt to flare to minimum flying speed and grease it down on the mains with the nosewheel high.. .. .If they learned on taildraggers they *have* to know how to land properly.. .. .OK, such sloppy landing technique is unlikely to kill you (unless you run off the end into something solid 'cause you landed hot and high), but just look at all those very expensive collapsed noselegs in the AAIB reports every month. We all pay for those in our insurance premiums or club hire rates.. .. .Grrrr!!!!. .. .SSD

[Ludwig]

One "cure" for these problems following a winter lay up might be to change the min hours requirement to something more sensible, and spread over an even period so you don't have pilots scratching around with 12 hours a year or whatever, make it say 50 per annum perhaps?, an hour a week is nothing.

[Evo7]

I agree in principle, but an hour a week is five grand, Lugwig - and is it really the best way to spend the money? Maybe somewhere in the middle.... . . . <small>[ 25 March 2002, 14:28: Message edited by: Evo7 ]</small>

[bertiethebadger]

Maybe it's not the minimums per annum that are the problem but currency.. .. .Maybe a basic check flight if you haven't flown for 3 months. A few ccts & a PFL would help anyone.. .. .BtB

[Ludwig]

Evo, what's five grand these days, especially in aviation?

[Simon W]

5 grand is 5 grand. That is alot of money to people trying to start a new business AND maintain a PPL for example. Anyway, surely no-one in the UK is able to fly every week of the year. I reckon more like a max of 40 weeks in a year?? I'm personally budgeting on flying around 30 hours a year once I have my licence.. . . . <small>[ 25 March 2002, 14:42: Message edited by: Simon W ]</small>

[Evo7]

Ludwig old chap, could you explain that to my wife sometime... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />

[Jetscream 32]

I will never forget, 2 years ago, i was checking out a part time A340 F/O flying for a big UK carrier, he was going to fly my supercub part-time banner towing along the south coast.. .. .Im in the back and we are on the 4th or 5th circuit, approach is looking good, "ok start the round out & chop the power and as it begins to settle keep the stick coming back so that all 3 wheels touch at the time: His neck muscles and tension resembled Mike Tyson in the ring, no sooner had we landed, the crosswind started to take hold, "work the rudder - work the rudder" . .I HAVE CONTROL, i managed to stop it groundlooping but did not stop us veering off the runway at 30 degrees off runway heading, luckily in between sets of lights. . .. .Come to a halt, quick burst of power, get back on runway, call from tower "are you ok" reply to the effect, "yes all part of learning to fly a taildragger".. .. .Said A 340 F/O then remarks to me that if he had done that in the company aircraft he would probably have killed everyone, one more circuit, no use he was past it for the day.. .. .Never came back again! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" />

[Whirlybird]

If you haven't flown all winter you need to go up with an instructor - very simple. 50 hours over the summer and a few months lay-off probably means you're out of practice. On the other hand, last year I kept more or less current on f/w aircraft while mainly flying helicopters, by circuit bashing for about half an hour every 3 weeks or so; I wasn't brilliant but I was safe. And that wasn't even 12 hours in a year (it was by the time I'd done the Dawn to Dusk and flown to Ireland though). It comes down to common sense and knowing your own limitations. Unfortunately you can't teach those.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Whirly excepted - I could check out any of you and find fault. Standards today are actually higher than in decades gone by due to the JAA mandatory flight checks. . .. .Discuss,. .. .WWW

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Bertie was correct with the three month recheck.. .. .The real problem is who will ensure the instructor even comes close to knowing how to land properly???. .. .Therein lies the problem. Instructors that are not competant due to having been taught by incompetant instructors.. .. .This has been going on for many years, the big problem is the morons in Government that dictate that to be competent you must spend all your time learning useless crap that just keeps pouring out of the monster they have created.. .. .JAR is the ultimate level of stupidity they have reached yet, but hang on it will get worse. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" /> . .. ........... . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />

[Wycombe]

A lot of sense being talked here (a lot of it by people like me that don't have as much cash to spend on our "hobby" as Ludwig).. .. .I've just finished a 6 month (financially induced) layoff and will probably have to budget myself to fly not more than 30hrs for the rest of this Year.. .. .Having started flying again last w/e (50 mins mostly upper air/gen handling/PFL/EFATO, which was mostly fine), I did an hour circuit-bashing with the CFI yesterday, which whilst ok, did show that I needed to tidy things up....a bit fast on the approach/overcompensation for x-wind/not enough pitch-up on the go-around etc etc.. .. .Although the CFI commented that I was "safe enough", I felt that I would really like one more session with him to really get things sorted (despite the dual rate of approx £150ph) - of course he didn't disagree!. .. .Some might think I'm being a bit over-cautious, but to my mind having a limited budget is not an excuse for not being safe & competent.. .. .Oh, and I was flying a brand new aeroplane (172SP - very nice!), so he probably doesn't want me to bend it!

[mad_jock]

The 3 point landing and not keeping the nose up annoys me more for the damage it does to the dampener on the nose gear. Same with TO all the weight on the nose until rotation.. .. .From what i can see if one person complains about shimmy before the rest and complains most. Its usually them who are doing the most damage.. .. .Although i must admit now when its busy i pick my landing point dependant on where i want to turn off and always try and have the horn give a hoot just as I touch down.. .. .MJ

[Cusco]

Stik. .. .Must be something about EGBG. Which runway was in use?. .. .I was there on Saturday when 10 was in use and not to put too fine a point on it the A/G was pants. Each time an A/c called final the dear old A/G replied Roger G-**** report final.. .. .A few aerial backs were being well and truly put up.. .. .I don't think its just the tyros who are to blame re lowering standards.. .. .I announced a downwind join to 10 as that fitted nicely: There were several other A/C in the circuit, some downwind, some base and I couldn't see any of them. They were probably doing Bomber command circuits while my wing tip traced the runway!.. .. .Any way this A/G was having a bad hair day so I announced extending downwind to get the base leg stuff onto final.. .. .At 2 mile final a Twin appeared off my left side on base, thought the better of carving me up, disappeared somewhere behind me only to reappear on short final as I was backtracking the main.. .. .Disappeared over my head on a go-around with the R/T comment 'that was a bit close.'. .. .You're not bl**dy kidding thought I.. .. .Less than two minutes later, having dropped off his passenger he roared off, doubtless to cause mayhem at some other A/D.. .. .Apart from that a great day's flying, actually flew home using my new crinkly half mil and stopwatch.. .. .So the twin jocks in a hurry can be just as dangerous.. .. .Hope he reads this post.

[twistedenginestarter]

Have to admit I was recently up for a check not having flown a 152 for several months. Did one perfect touchdown at a nice big runway but the next airfield - a small narrow runway - well I decided on a go-around. The instructor was all for putting it down but I'm one of those people that just doesn't care about spending the fuel on another circuit. You see I'm just too young to die.

[C-dog]

The secret is to based at a short field where you have no choice but to be current in landing short. . .. .Then the boss decided to level the strip & put in some much needed drainage so we were using the grass taxiway parallel to the burn. About 50% wider than the wheel track of a C172, now that was interesting. Too far to one side and you were into the long grass, better than the option on the other side.. .. .On the occassions the A/C is based at the local international airport the trick is to practice hitting the numbers & keeping the mains either side of the centreline marking each landing. It really does become 2nd nature - I'd be lost if ATC asked me to land long these days! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> . .. .Regards,. .. .c-dog

[gasax]

But remember c-dog this forum is full of professional (?) pilots. In other words if it ain't tarmac it cann't be a runway.. .If you don't wear gold braid you cann't be a pilot and if you can land a taildragger you must be one of those hobby people!!. .. .I always used to wonder why so many scheduled services arrived - then I saw the spotty erks from the club up the front!!

[Chuck Ellsworth]

WWW:. .. ."Standards today are actually higher than in decades gone by????". .. .This thread is discussing how to "FLY " aircraft not how to follow SOP's that have been dumbed down to the lowest common demominator.. .. .So how come in the sixties and seventies we had to be very profficient in landing and taking off from sand beaches, arctic eskers, ice runways and unprepared snow surfaces flying DC3's DC6's, Twin Otters and the like in every type of nasty weather the Arctic can produce?? Sometimes the x/winds were off the page never mind the chart?. .. .Your statement got me to thinking that maybe,just maybe you have misspoke on this one?. .. .As an example I was wondering how in hell I would try and persuade an Airbus computer generated flight system to do some of the manouvers we regularly got the " old " birds to do? . .. .P.S. WWW. .. .For navigation we used the astro compass, dead reckoning and if we were really lucky an ADF approach at the destination. ( Usually with a 25 mile receive range as the beacons were very poor. ). .. .................... . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />

[Jetscream 32]

WWW,. .. .I bit un-sporting of you to have my post removed, without even having the decency of mailing me to tell me so, but after looking at your profile, i can see why.. .. .Yes you did overstep the mark. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="mad.gif" />

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Jetscream - unsure if I ever removed a posting of yours. Refresh my memory. . .. .We generally don't email people whos posting we interfere with. We don't have the time or inclination.. .. .I was referring to private GA standards Cat Driver.. .. .WWW

[Jetscream 32]

WWW,. .. .I still can't believe your digging yourself a deeper hole, you really do believe that anyone without a commercial job in the right hand seat of a 737 is a lesser pilot than you, don't you?. .. .You poor man, i am sure there's a cure somewhere!. .. .It sounds like operating the radio on short haul 737's has had a profound effect on your outlook to GA.. .. .Still, each to their own, i am sure your a jolly nice chap really.. .. . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="cool.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" />

[Ludwig]

Jetscream/www, I say old chaps, this slanging match is a bit off topic what? If this is the way professionals treat each other what hope for GA.

[Jetscream 32]

Ludwig,. .. .I have never retorted on this or any forum before in this manner but a post so pompous as that on page 1 of this thread, that requests replies "discuss" should get a reply that reflects the vast number of pilots who fly in the GA sector for fun, many of whom have thousands of "hands on flying" hours and demonstrate exemplary flying skills, yet do not have a commercial job. Not everyone learning to fly wants to be a boeing driver.. .. .As it was pointed out earlier, www overstepped the mark. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" />

[BRL]

Ok. If the next few posts are not 'on-topic' the whole lot is going to be binned. I have warned you at least now havn't I. Such a shame to see threads go this way.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" /> . .No more arguing, e-mail the person you disagree with if you want to continue the argument.

[FNG]

Hear, hear, Big Red L. I am sorry to see a very few people being consistently rude to and about WWW, who generally posts in a civilised and informative manner. Some people (same ones?) keep having a go at BEagle as well. I assume that they will not be deterred from making helpful contributions to this forum.. .. .The issue of whether or not GA flying standards are improving is an interesting one. Biennial instructor check outs must help a bit. I sometimes wonder if there could be a more formal structure for continuous development after licence issue. Some PPLs choose to expose their flying to instructor scrutiny on a more or less regular basis, by getting additional ratings, differences training etc. Others disappear from the instructional radar screen until they have to do their biennial. People would no doubt complain of further regulation, but why not, for example, require the instructor hour for a new PPL to be within the second six months after licence issue? I could make myself even more unpopular by suggesting that the minimum hours for licence maintenance should be increased, but had better stop and get my tin hat.. .. .As for landing flat, I too was guilty of this in the past, and found that a tailwheel checkout did wonders for my trike landings. Imaginative flying clubs which have taildraggers available could perhaps do worse than offer PPL students the option of a few dual tailwheel hours as part of the course.

[englishal]

Can't possibily be JAA licence holders exhibiting bad airmanship, must be an Evil FAA licence holder.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" /> . .. .(Sorry Big Red L, just thought we needed a bit of humor <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="tongue.gif" /> )

[slim_slag]

Can't possibily be JAA licence holders exhibiting bad airmanship, must be an Evil FAA licence holder.... . .. . <img border="0" title="" alt="" src="biggrin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> . .. .It's a FAA [b]certificate! The Yankees consider it almost a born right to fly, and the guvmint is not in a position to 'licence' you to do so. That's why they give you a 'certificate' which simply proves you have met the very high standards required to exercise your right.. .. .Yeh, it doesn't totally make sense, but really does show how basic attitudes to flying are different in the two continents. These attitudes are also apparent on these forums. I can generally tell who is from FAA-land and JAA-land without even looking at the profiles.. .. .Anyway. I am glad to see than from my disinterested reading of the new JAR PPL requirements, Europe is getting closer to the standards in the USA. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> . .. .The best way to be a safe pilot is to be current, fly at least once a week. That's far easier where its cheap, flight schools are happy to see you and they don't have their head up their posteriors. The regulations are based upon safety AND common sense, and are for ALL users of the Airspace System. In the US we are all taxpayers and we all own the air.. .. .Even in the NE of America where the weather is far worse than in the UK, PPLs remain current because its far easier to get an IR in the US. In the UK its a nightmare.. .. .I have always thought the UK should have become another region of the FAA rather than part of the JAA cabal. Unfortunately there would still be the Eurocontrol problem so any flights departing to the south would still be screwed. GA guys in the UK would have it a lot better.. . . . <small>[ 27 March 2002, 22:05: Message edited by: slim_slag ]</small>

[siwalker66]

It is intriguing how discussions about falling standards arise. . .Reading or watching the news reveals that our doctors are unscrupulous figures who regularly cock up your care and molest your daughters; teachers are ignoramuses presiding over a 3rd world exam system within which exams are supposedly no match for the A levels of old; accountants will move to the Bahamas on your retirement money. . .Are skills like those of a flying instructor or doctor or cabinetmaker really deterioraating? Why is it we all come to feel this way? Surely objective evidence shows that our abilities to ameliorate the effects of disease or transport ourselves safely by air are in fact improving?

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Chickenhawk66:. .. .I can't comment on Doctors and Cabinetmakers but during the past several decades Flight Instructors on the whole have deterioated in their flying skills and by default their ability to teach same.. .. .The reasons for this downturn is not easy to pinpoint exactly, but contributing factors are partly due to aircraft design changes and the bureaucrats who lay out the training guidelines moving from teaching physical flight skills to paper oriented subjects such as the ever expanding rules and downright goofy psuedo science in their vision of so called human factors training.. .. .That is my very brief thoughts on your question, but yes the overall competancy of flight instructors has taken a downward turn and it is evident by observing their product.. .. ................. . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />

[Chuck Ellsworth]

WWW:. .. .Hi again good friend.. .. .I also was referring to private GA standards.. .. .They are not as oriented toward stick and rudder flying as they were several decades ago, in all fairness to your opinion the newer aircraft are not as demanding to fly which plays some part in the general lower standard of pilot skills in todays instructor.. .. .Will you agree that the aircraft which I referred to in my post required a different set of skills to fly than your Boeing?. .. .Will you also allow that "ALL" private pilot candidates would be better served if more stick and rudder skills were taught. For instance would it not be beneficial to them if some of their early training were on a taildragger?. .. .Now, can you give us some number crunching on what percentage of to days instructors are tail wheel qualified sufficient to teach on same.. .. . I will be hanging around N. Weald in May doing some test flying on the nicest PBY in the world before we ferry it and would really like to meet you if you are in that area. ( Hell maybe you could even teach me something about flying the damn thing? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" /> .. ). .. .............. . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />

[big pistons forever]

I am not sure I agree that standards are slipping. Flying is more complicated than it used to be and just good stick and rudder skills are not enough anymore, particularly when you have to fly in the same sky as commercial traffic which is just about anywhere near a city these days. The good old days where you you only used the radio to order lunch at the next stop are just about over, pretty much everywhere. I tell all my students that beeing a proffesional pilot is a state of mind. It involves making an effort to sweat the details ,to constantly fly as accurately as you can , to take pride in a well flown manoever, and strive to do better. Some of the best pilots I have seen have been relatively low time private pilots. Conversly some high time big iron drivers I have met are walking aeronutical idiots. It reminds of a great line I overheard at the flying club coffee shop. An obviously newly minted PPL is plainly in awe of his friend the commercial pilot and his often stated claim that he has over a thousand hours. Unfortunately the object of his adulation was widely considered a pratt. Finally. .one of the gentleman at the table, a hugely experienced retired pilot, couldn't stand it any longer. He said " Some pilots have a thousand hours, he has one hour a thousand times " <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />

[Chuck Ellsworth]

B.P.F.:. .. .This thread was discussing the poor landing abilities of a large number of todays pilots, just go back and read the first posts.. .. .As to your comment that flying is more complicated today than it used to be, that is not exactly true either. It all depands on where and what you are flying. Good stick and rudder skills are no less important today than they were in the past.. .. .Now I don't know how far back you go but lets try Chicago O'Hare in the late fifties and early sixties, the traffic density was not all that much different than today and we did not have all the modern avionics and nav equipment to make life easier.. .. .There is a positive aspect to poorly trained pilots however, it does give those who do skills upgrading training a never ending supply of customers. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> . .. ...................... . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />

[big pistons forever]

Cat Driver. .. .I never said good stick and rudder skills were not important, just that they are not the only skills required to be a good pilot. In regards to your point that this thread is about poor landings, I think my comments absolutely apply.. .Pilots of whatever experience level that make an effort to "always sweat the details, and try to fly the airplane as accurately as possible" don't make three point landings 2/3 of the way down the runway. They make good safe tail low landings in the first 1/4 of the runway because they made the effort to fly the final approach at an appropriate stabilized airspeed and on a good glidepath. The willingness to apply this discipline and to generally take pride in the demonstration of good airmanship is independant of total flying hours and has not in my opinion changed appreciably over the years. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" />