First Solo De-brief, Formal or Informal, Where, When?

[Pull what]

SAS says
Doing a formal debrief immediately after the first solo isn't professional. It's ludicrous. Just because it says that you should do something in the manual, doesn't mean it's a good idea. A lack of "interest"? A lack of interest in what?I have never seen a requirement in a manual for a formal first solo de-brief but it is something I believe is important and would be better carried out in the school immediately after the flight, not down the pub as SAS has suggested, although I understand he is probably anxious to provide a casual celebratory atmosphere.

In my experience a FS student wants to immeadiately talk about the detail asap, so why not de brief straight away combining formality and informality at the same time. Delaying that briefing, in my opinion, could send the wrong signal to the student and be interpreted as 'lack of interest'--What do you think?

There certainly is a time for celebration in the pub but thats after the hangar doors have been closed!

[Say again s l o w l y]

This could be far more easily dealt with in the other thread, where comments can be seen in context and in full.

For a start, my comments were that of course you talk to the student about the flight and you do debrief them, but in a different way to how you would normally do it. You get the information from them (normally as they are blathering at a thousand miles per hour) and then you make comments where appropriate.
What I don't do is frog march them into a briefing room and start lecturing them on the finer points of filling tech logs or what being an aircraft commander means, as you intimated that you do immediately after a first solo.

I don't want this to become a tit for tat arguement between you and I and I'd rather you simply stated you case for doing something, rather than trying to pick apart my methods out of context. That way I can work out of you are actually an FI at all, or simply another in a long line of Pprune fantasists.

[Tmbstory]

I suggest, don't talk, just listen and enjoy the enthusiasm of the Student.

Tmb.

[Pull what]

I think one or two do not understand how short briefs or de-briefs should be, briefings are not lectures

[PENKO]

Where I learned to fly, the whole flying club would turn out on the apron, including friends and family. All would have an egg in their hand. So guess what the debrief consisted of!

:E

[Pull what]

At Dublin ties were cut off and pinned on the board-womens knickers were used in place of ties--quite a fun flying school

[Pull what]

What I don't do is frog march them into a briefing room and start lecturing them on the finer points of filling tech logs or what being an aircraft commander means, as you intimated that you do immediately after a first solo.

I have never suggested that at any time, that was your mis- interpretation seemingly based on a need to prove something to me that you have no need to.

[Pull what]

I suggest, don't talk, just listen and enjoy the enthusiasm of the Student.A good conversationalist is a better listener than a talker, so they say, but instruction is about two way dialogue.

[Pull what]

That way I can work out of you are actually an FI at all, or simply another in a long line of PPRuNe fantasists.I am quite happy to make a contribution on here and I am quite happy to for anyone to disagree with my opinion, I am also more than happy to also learn from anyone on here, whether they are fantasists or realists. What I am not happy about is your constant sniping which I find insulting. You have gone to great lengths to shew me you are a professional instructor please continue to do so by speaking to me in the same manner that I am speaking to you.

[PENKO]

At Dublin ties were cut off and pinned on the board-womens knickers were used in place of ties--quite a fun flying school

But after having twenty eggs smashed on your head, the only de-brief possible is one with a garden hose attached! Makes the occasion all the more memorable. The instructor? After having smashed the first egg, usually heads straight to the bar :E


Formality kills the fun.

[turbulentmonkey]

I just had my first solo 2 days ago. Still smiling! :)

The debrief involved my instructor asking me how it went, what I thought was good, where i could have done better. Can he give you a real de-brief when he hasn't been in the plane?

I was more than happy to talk it through (at a hundred miles an hour yes) and im sure most first solos feel the same.

I don't think the student would take that much in straight after first solo to be honest - i for one was still pleased i came back in one piece, with the aircraft intact and nose wheel safe and sound. I was quite happy for the instructor to listen rather than lecturing me on how I flew for the first time alone.

Don't think lack of interest should even be mentioned - if i thought for one second i was paying hard-earned cash only for my instructor to be half interested, i wouldn't be at solo stage - and if i was it would be with another instructor!

Cheers

[Pull what]

Formality kills the fun.

But as the buck stops with me my main concern, as your relatives would be the first to tell me, is that nothing kills you!

[Pull what]

Don't think lack of interest should even be mentioned - if i thought for one second i was paying hard-earned cash only for my instructor to be half interested, i wouldn't be at solo stage - and if i was it would be with another instructor!

I think what you and me are saying is that your instructor should treat you as a 'customer' as well as a student.

[Pull what]

The debrief involved my instructor asking me how it went, what I thought was good, where i could have done better. Can he give you a real de-brief when he hasn't been in the plane?

Thats all that is needed together with the authorisation sheet/ tech log Eg Any defects?
Filling in your log book & what detail we will fly next-it takes but a few minutes.

Yes of course a de-brief can take place without your instructor being in the aircraft. I am just as excited as you are, I would like to share the experience too!

[PENKO]

But as the buck stops with me my main concern, as your relatives would be the first to tell me, is that nothing kills you!

But isn't that something you do before sending someone off to fly solo? Or are you concerned that something really dangerous happened during the first solo, which the student might forget about if you don't debrief him on the spot? If so, then fair enough. To me it sounds a bit over the top, but of course, you know your students best.

[Pull what]

Or are you concerned that something really dangerous happened during the first solo, which the student might forget about if you don't debrief him on the spot?

As the CFI or authorisng instructor my main concern is for your welfare and safety at all stages of the PPL course (and for me personally at any stage in your flying career but thats just me).

I have a limited amount of time on a 45 hour course to instill into you the best aviation practice and airmanship that I can and I take that task and responsibilty seriously.

That may sound like I do not subscribe to having fun also but I can assure you the two can be combined!.

[Say again s l o w l y]

If you cannot complete the required training in 45 hours, then take as long as is needed.

You don't rush things simply to fit them into an arbitrary time limit. I have never even thought about the length of time it takes to do a PPL course and nor have any other instructors I've ever flown with. It goes at the best speed for the student. Some can do it in with ease in 45 hours. The vast majority can't and so the course takes longer.

Turbulentmonkey, Well done!

[OneIn60rule]

However I would like to point out...

Every student that walks through my doors is almost never able to finish in 45 hours.

The few that do are exceptionally focused,gifted or have previously flown gliders.

I personally finished in roughly 70 hours.

[Skittles]

I'm fresh of my first solo as well. What an experience.

In terms of debriefing he didn't say a word.

I'm no instructor but unless you make serious mistakes what is the point in a debrief?

- If the flight is excellent then there's no point in debriefing whatsoever. Just a glorified well done, which you get enough of from the lads sitting around in the flight school and over the radio as you taxi back.

- If the flight is good with a couple of mistakes but the pilot is still elated as to be expected, then you drag them into a stuffy little room and pick them up on all the things they could have done better you'll destroy the experience and their newly gained confidence.

I'm a little unusual in that I'm a perfectionist and I like to be told every single little thing I've got wrong, so I wouldn't be fussed if my instructor decided to debrief formally.

The whole point of going solo though is to use your own skills, knowledge and judgment to complete a successful circuit. Surely if you're on the first solo you're at the standard where you don't need an instructor to tell you if you cocked up, or what you could have done better?

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Yes a debrief after the first solo is mandatory, it consists of " You did it!!!!! "

Picking fly **** out of pepper is not needed after the first solo.

Any instructor who teaches based only on what " the book " says is not an instructor they are robots and better suited to getting a job as a bureaucrat in government where one only crosses the T's and dots the I's.

The first solo is a once in a life time experience and should not be tainted by debriefing, if the student wants to ask a question about what they did that is fine, then you advise.

[Pull what]

Yes a debrief after the first solo is mandatory, it consists of " You did it!!!!! "

Stevie Wonder could tell you that, better progress is made with most aspects of the course with instuction not commentary.

[Pull what]

If the flight is good with a couple of mistakes but the pilot is still elated as to be expected, you'll destroy the experience and their newly gained confidence.

Part of the skill of being an instructor is to engage with a student so they can recognise and openly discuss mistakes without destroying confidence.

then you drag them into a stuffy little room and pick them up on all the things they could have done better

You are either a potential fiction author or in need of a new flying school!

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Stevie Wonder could tell you that, better progress is made with most aspects of the course with instuction not commentary.

You have asked for comments on this subject, I am commenting from experience as a flying instructor who has learned to teach, not be a robot.

[Pull what]

if the student wants to ask a question about what they did that is fine, then you advise.
Good post revision Chuck! De briefing is also about putting the student in the appropriate place and enviroment to ask such a question and give such advice.

[Say again s l o w l y]

Are you noticing how little support for your views you are getting here?

I'm desperately trying to keep this purely on a professional basis, but so far you still haven't laid out why your method is better than anyone elses. You've just made short, one line, narky replies to people who don't agree.

Lay your case out and stand by your convictions. Or simply clarify any misunderstanding I or anyothers might have for your viewpoint.

[Pull what]

I am commenting from experience as a flying instructor who has learned to teach, not be a robot.

Robotic instructors do just that-provide commentary rather than instruction. You could programme a robot to say" That was a **** landing" but you will never get a robot to tell you how to improve a **** landing!

[Pull what]

Are you noticing how little support for your views you are getting here?I am and it makes the debate so much more interesting but you see the difference between you and me is that I know through many years of managerial and instructional experience that weak people always like everyone around them to agree with them!

[Say again s l o w l y]

I don't think you are quite getting it.

Chuck is saying that someone who simply follows the text book and doesn't actually do any teaching, just lecturing, is a poor FI.

You are saying that an FI who doesn't do any teaching, just critcising is also poor.

You're both correct, but I think you are misunderstanding what Chuck is actually saying.

Slavish devotion to a system, is poor teaching. Any teacher who has even a modicum of talent knows that sometimes you have to think on your feet a bit and do things differently to what the manual says. Teaching people is not like following a checklist. It is a good idea to have a checklist to ensure that nothing gets missed, but sometimes the order of that checklist can be adjusted.

[Pull what]

Lay your case out and stand by your convictions. Or simply clarify any misunderstanding I or anyothers might have for your viewpoint.

I am trying hard.

[Say again s l o w l y]

I am and it makes the debate so much more interesting but you see the difference between you and me is that I know through many years of managerial and instructional experience that weak people always like everyone around them to agree with them!

You just can't stop yourself making the little barbs can you...

[Pull what]

SAS i am getting it and I agree with what you say-Instructing is a mixture of many skills-there needs to be formailty and informality but rule books are neccesary in all walks of life. It's when and how you interpret the rules that decides if you are a pain in the arse or a reasonable instructor.

[Pull what]

You just can't stop yourself making the little barbs can you...

I am a great believer in 'fair comment' that is why I havn't made one post about you in the style of your earlier posts about me.

I don't mind criticism, the more the better!

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Pull what, from reading your posts here I can see a very close resemblance between you and DFC.

We are galaxies apart in our teaching methods.

I guess that is fair though as we all have our own methods and in the final analysis our success or lack thereof as teachers will be determined by how much money we can command as teachers.

If you as a teacher are not worth top pay you will just be another cookie cutter instructor in the industry scraping the bottom of the barrel for enough money to exist on.

I am and it makes the debate so much more interesting but you see the difference between you and me is that I know through many years of managerial and instructional experience that weak people always like everyone around them to agree with them!

I was never short of clients willing to pay top dollar to learn.

[Pull what]

Chuck-- I respect your experience, knowledge and opinion and everyone else's, no matter who they are, thats why I havnt told the one guy I was instructing before he was born or mentioned to another, " what would you know about instructing you have only just gone first solo?"

[Pull what]

Oh and about DFC, I like the way he sticks to his guns and never trys to insult anybody, yet many try to insult him. It is a shame that many on here seem to think that having a different opinion means you dislike someone or have to feel the need to try and rubbish them. Surely as professional instructors dealing with disimilar views is basic human factors that should be very simple to deal with?

[Say again s l o w l y]

:rolleyes:

That's one way to kill off any last vestige of respect. "I was teaching before you were born." Uh huh, that's nice for you.

In many cases I will respect that, certainly in Chuck's case and others I know with whom I've taught alongside, but despite my age, I'm not exactly a newbie in this business, however, why not give us the benefit of your experience and put us youngsters in our place?

Whilst I often don't agree with DFC, at least he explains why he holds the views he does and I respect that. He goes into detail and puts a case forward. Maybe you'd like to follow his example?

[Pull what]

I I'm not exactly a newbie in this business, however, why not give us the benefit of your experience and put us youngsters in our place? You keep trying to make my posts into something that they are not. I do not need to put anyone in their place, thats not my style or intention, and every post I make is made with the benefit of my experience (obviously) in the same way that everyone elses is.

please read this line again

Chuck-- I respect your experience, knowledge and opinion and everyone else's, no matter who they are,

[Pull what]

He goes into detail and puts a case forward. Maybe you'd like to follow his example?

I do by giving a post FS de-brief-its you that likes casual brevity!

[Say again s l o w l y]

Most people will have lost the will to live after reading this far into this thread, but I'll carry on regardless, even though I'm bored now.

I understand that you do a debrief after a first solo, what I don't understand is why. Why is doing a formal, sit down debrief where you start to explain the intricacies of the techlog and command decision making (as mentioned by yourself in the other thread) better than what we are all describing here, where the debrief consists of;
"How did that go?"
"Great!"
"Any problems you want to talk about?"
"No"
"I didn't notice anything, let's go and celebrate."

All done as you walk back to the clubhouse.

I then get them to fill in the techlog (which I've explained in a proper brief previously), hand them their certificate, take a picture to go on the wall/website and in some places hand them a cheap bottle of fizz as a "well done."

If you've got more flying to do yourself, then you do that, if not you drag them for a celebratory pint (Usually an orange juice and lemonade for me as I'm driving home) and you have a chat about everything, usually involving a blow by blow account of the flight.

That's what I do and I've already said why I follow this method. So, what's your method and why do you follow it?

[mad_jock]

every post I make is made with the benefit of my experience (obviously)

Which I reckon is not alot.

I notice in another thread you claim to be a FIC instructor what ever that is. If you actually had anything to do with FIC's you would know the term is FII and FIE for the examiner.

If you were such an animal the questions I posed earlier on would be like water off a ducks back. A copy and paste job from your course notes.

If you are a FII could you please explain the process in becoming a FII?

As these are anonymous forums the origins of the contributions may be opposite to what may be apparent. In fact the press may use it, or the unscrupulous, or sciolists*, to elicit certain reactions.

*"sciolist"... Noun, archaic. "a person who pretends to be knowledgeable and well informed".

[Chuck Ellsworth]

This was his best comment in my opinion.

I said:

Yes a debrief after the first solo is mandatory, it consists of " You did it!!!!! "

Pull what said:


Stevie Wonder could tell you that, better progress is made with most aspects of the course with instuction not commentary.

Proof positive the message is not going to get through.

I'm now stepping off this hamster wheel...:ok:

[Pull what]

Don't give up Chuck, you were doing so well.

[Pull what]

Which I reckon is not alot.

I notice in another thread you claim to be a FIC instructor what ever that is. If you actually had anything to do with FIC's you would know the term is FII and FIE for the examiner.

If you were such an animal the questions I posed earlier on would be like water off a ducks back. A copy and paste job from your course notes.

If you are a FII could you please explain the process in becoming a FII?

As these are anonymous forums the origins of the contributions may be opposite to what may be apparent. In fact the press may use it, or the unscrupulous, or sciolists*, to elicit certain reactions.

*"sciolist"... Noun, archaic. "a person who pretends to be knowledgeable and well informed".I appreciate your really trying hard MJ but try and stick to the thread.

(If you phone On Track Aviation, 01789 842777, they will help you with some advice on becoming an FI)

[Pull what]

SAS look how your post FS briefings have improved

Debriefing a first solo usually goes like this:

S: "WoooHooooo!"

FI: "Did you enjoy that?"

S: "Gibber, gibber, random nonsense, thatwasfrigginawesome!"

FI: "Nicely done, let's go and celebrate."

Its now changed to
where the debrief consists of;
"How did that go?"
"Great!"
"Any problems you want to talk about?"
"No"
"I didn't notice anything, let's go and celebrate."

All done as you walk back to the clubhouse.

I then get them to fill in the techlog (which I've explained in a proper brief previously), hand them their certificate, take a picture to go on the wall/website and in some places hand them a cheap bottle of fizz as a "well done."

[Pull what]

"Any problems you want to talk about?" Yes please sir.

Glad to see you are now seeking feed back on any problems that occur during a FS.

Did you see my circuit and/or landing, any comments?

Did you listen to my RT, any comments?

Can you tell me how I record a FS in my pilots log book?

Can you tell me what flying times I record in my pilots log book?

Can you just make sure I fill the Tech Log and Authorisation Sheet correctly?

I think there may be a defect on the aircraft-how would I word it and write it up?

Can you tell me what the next flight detail will be?

Can you recommend a good internet pilot's forum?

Are you paying for the beer down at the pub?

[Say again s l o w l y]

*Gives up and walks away*

Oh and MJ needs no introduction on here. He's been an FI for quite a while and certainly does know what he's talking about.

Don't forget that many of us on here know each other in the "real world" too.

[Pull what]

Thats right--I trained many on here!

[Skittles]

Pull what - You should probably remember this old gem;

If everyone else disagrees with you, you're probably the one that's wrong.

So far you've had a host of extraordinarily experienced flight instructors telling you that your method has no value, and a host of newly solo'd students telling you that your method has no value.

I'm not sure the Queen is available, but I can try and get the pope on the phone if you want someone of a more prominent stature to disagree with you.

[Say again s l o w l y]

Thats right--I trained many on here!

You're not the only one. Not that it actually matters. None of us can go on anything that isn't posted, unless you use your real name. So far, all we have is your word that you are what you say you are. So far MJ isn't convinced and nor am I. After 10 years on this site I've seen a whole load of people who pretend to be something they aren't, so it's unsurprising that people are suspicious when you refuse to answer specific questions.

If you truly are an experienced FI, then I'm sure you'll understand our suspicions. Afterall, there is nothing more dangerous than people following aviation advice from an unqualified person.

[mad_jock]

Nice dodge but sorry no chance.

Yet again an inability to answer any technical questions to do with being an instructor. Ones that even a CRI should be able to answer.


Come then answer the questions. Personally I don't think you have sent a student solo in your life which is why your theory's are so wide of the mark about what really happens.

[Pull what]

So far you've had a host of extraordinarily experienced flight instructors telling you that your method has no value, and a host of newly solo'd students telling you that your method has no value.

Thanks, are you joining the discussion or supporting friends? Care to point out which part of my method has no value?

[Chuck Ellsworth]

I said I would exit this discussion Pull what, but I came back to tell you I do not believe you are an instructor.

If you are I feel sorry for your students..

[Pull what]

I said I would exit this discussion Pull what, but I came back to tell you I do not believe you are an instructor.

If you are I feel sorry for your students..

I thought you would be back Chuck

On the other hand I do believe you are an instructor, I have come across quite a few like you before.

I feel sorry for my students sometimes too-see we have something in common after all!

[Say again s l o w l y]

I'm out. Sorry, but if you are an FI, then I'll be very, very surprised. I'm not going to waste my time debating with a Walt.

[Pull what]

I'm out. Sorry, but if you are an FI, then I'll be very, very surprised. I'm not going to waste my time debating with a fantasist.Have a great evening, are you briefing in the pub?

[Say again s l o w l y]

No, just not wasting it anymore.

[Pull what]

Well say hello to MJ for me.

[Pull what]

Thanks, are you joining the discussion or supporting friends? Care to point out which part of my method has no value?

Come on Skittles its boring now MJ and SAS are in the pub planning a new line of attack-as you said you are a perfectionsist ,so once again would you like to point out which part of my method has no value.

[mad_jock]

Skittles I wouldn't say I am extraordinarily experienced.

Any FI who is past restricted will know he is talking pish.

Although seeing in another thread that he has mentioned about windows in the roofs of Hamble aircraft.

He could very well be one of them, which would account for his quasi mil terminology.

The teaching methods from those days are well out of date to the point that even the RAF haven't used them for 15-20 years. If it is the cased its more than likely he did fail some poor sod for the inability of the team to knock someone out of an error loop. Him and the rest of the instructors proberly had a right good laugh about it in the bar afterwards as well. Those days the instructor was god, most students learned to fly inspite of the instruction given instead because of the instruction given. It was meant to make a man and pilot out of you. It was also border line bulling and hazing from the word go. but for some students it actually works for them. Older police officers are partial to a bit of verbal abuse when you teach them.

If it is the case that he is a hamble auld tw@t he is proberly worth listening to when it comes to flight procedures. But for modern day instructural technique give his opinion a wide berth. They proberly did debrief the students after first solo. But lacked either the theory of learning knowledge or really didn't care even if they did know. It was just another chance to hit the student with the fact that they were all important. Either way the student got bugger all out the debrief apart from the relief that they wern't getting chopped.

And to add from the previous sacastic comment, I have never met SAS. When I was full time he ran the school 150 miles to the south. I have flown checkouts with his ex students and I am sure he has flown with mine. O aye and there is 3500Nm between me and where SAS is just now.

[mur007]

Speaking as a student who did his first solo in September I cannot really see how any sort of de-brief would be of any value, unless it was about the dual circuits that preceded the final solo one. I can only remember the terror I felt sitting at the hold and briefly being downwind ... the rest has gone from my memory and went very soon after I landed! I flew that circuit on so much adrenaline! I would imagine that the real value of first solo is psychological - ie yes I can safely fly this thing without an instructor sat next to me. Second solo onwards - when I was in a more relaxed state of mind - I was ready to discuss my flying and decision-making with my instructor when I got back and the debriefs from those were enormously valuable. But I think if my instructor had even tried to engage me in anything like that after my 1st solo, it just wouldn't have worked.

[Pull what]

The teaching methods from those days are well out of date to the point that even the RAF haven't used them for 15-20 years.

Really -- do tell us more about which parts the RAF havnt used for 15-20 years.

Most of the PPL is based on wartime methods with an bit of FAA fantasy thrown in by Ron Campbell in the 70s

Quite happy to accept than my methods are pish to you but do tell me which bits are pish and why

[Pull what]

But I think if my instructor had even tried to engage me in anything like that after my 1st solo, it just wouldn't have worked.

So in the pub with SAS or in the school with me wouldnt have worked for you?

[DFC]

I think that this is a good time to point out the original argument that spawned this one was based on the statement by someone that when they send a student on their forst solo they do not even bother to watch what they do.

Rather than point out the obvious that such a technique is poor practice I asked how that person would debrief what the student did if they did not even bother to watch the event.

I further made the point that this was a clear example of the instructor getting as emotionally caught up in the significance of the first solo as the student and that as such was failing to remain profesional.

The point is not that a formal lenghty debrief is required at the end of the exercise especially if all went well. However, unless the instructor takes the time to observe what the student does they have no way of for example answering the students question of "why did I bounce 3 times and almost run off the end of the runway" with something other than "I did not bother to look and was not aware that you did!!"

Well done let's go for a pint.

Well done, (Note to self needs to practice a go-round next time because the one they did wasn't the best).

are examples of "de-briefs".

So to put the whole point of this debate into the spotlight -

Do people think that the authorising instructor or a nominated qualified representative should observe a first (and second) solo flight in the circuit?

Do you think that the instructor should be able to put into the next dual lesson something that they observe as being in need of improvement during that solo flight?

I think that not bothering to at least watch what the solo student does is highly unprofessional and prevents the pre-second solo dual session from being tailored to any issues that may have occurred.

That is the issue!!

[mur007]

No - the venue would have been irrelevant: I couldn't remember anything of it to have any sort of meaningful conversation!!! What my instructor has done - cleverly I think - is made sure that I've had challenging stuff in the next lesson after first solo, 1st solo nav, and qxc!

[Pull what]

I couldn't remember anything of it to have any sort of meaningful conversation!!! Believe me, if you had made a major mistake you would have rembered it. One of the reasons for de briefing is to review performance, being asked to recall the event is in itself and aid to remembering the event.

[Pull what]

The point is not that a formal lenghty debrief is required at the end of the exercise

Just in case there is any confusion with- the 'wade in without reading previous posts brigade' I am only suggetsing that de - briefs should be just that 'brief'

[mad_jock]

They are pish because you only have one method. The student either learns or they don't.

You don't take into account that every person is different. You have no concept how people learn, even why they learn or why they are all different some more different than others.

Students learned to fly inspite of the instruction given instead because of the instruction given.

Apparently your ilke was exactly the same flying the line. So much knowledge to give but a complete incompetence of sharing it.

The syllabus is the same, the method of teaching has progressed. Its a pity that some of the auld tw@ts are either unwilling or unable to move with it.

I have been exposed to an ex Hamble instructor on my first type rating. Thankfully I wasn't on the recieving end of the sarcastic comments. My sim partner was down for no further training. Thankfully a true instructor took over (Dave Royal) and took 15 mins to sort out a very daft mistake which the ex Hamble TRI had spent 8 hours watching without realising the prat was covering the brakes on a V1 cut. In that 8 hours my sim partner was subjected to comments on the fact that he was a self improver so it was to be expect, if he couldn't fly a crappy turboprop did he expect to fly a jet. Then the final none stressful, bound to get the student to improve "if you don't sort yourself on this next one I am reporting to the company that your training should be stopped." It doesn't work, 15 mins with Dave and problem sorted LPC passed. Thankfully we kept Dave for the rest of the course.

[Pull what]

They are pish because you only have one method. The student either learns or they don't.

One method. i see and what is that and please quote the post which makes you believe that.

You don't take into account that every person is different. You have no concept how people learn, even why they learn or why they are all different some more different than others.

How does giving a brief formal FS de brief in the school lead you to belive that?

[BEagle]

Most of the PPL is based on wartime methods with an bit of FAA fantasy thrown in by Ron Campbell in the 70s

Oh really? From what factual information do you make such an assertion?

Really -- do tell us more about which parts the RAF havnt used for 15-20 years.

So - have you ever held a CFS QFI category? If so, at which level and on which aircraft? I'm surprised that you should have chosen to discuss the RAF, since elsewhere you alleged:

The RAF turns out some very arrogant superior pilots-am I close?

But, since you claim to have been a 'airline captain with 30 years of experience' , no less, how on earth would you have any idea about RAF training methods?

Prove you're not a Walt, or expect the inevitable.

[Pull what]

I have been exposed to an ex Hamble instructor on my first type rating. Thankfully I wasn't on the recieving end of the sarcastic comments. My sim partner was down for no further training. Thankfully a true instructor took over (Dave Royal) and took 15 mins to sort out a very daft mistake which the ex Hamble TRI had spent 8 hours watching without realising the prat was covering the brakes on a V1 cut. In that 8 hours my sim partner was subjected to comments on the fact that he was a self improver so it was to be expect, if he couldn't fly a crappy turboprop did he expect to fly a jet. Then the final none stressful, bound to get the student to improve "if you don't sort yourself on this next one I am reporting to the company that your training should be stopped." It doesn't work, 15 mins with Dave and problem sorted LPC passed. Thankfully we kept Dave for the rest of the course.Not quite sure what this has to do with me. As a professional flying instructor you should be aware that the actions of one pilot or instructor does not define a company or organisation-strange how you understand that students are individuals and needed to be treated as such but cannot extend this to other pilots or instructors. If both of you were foolish enough to allow someone to talk to you in that manner its hardly my fault. CRM includes being able to manage people, whether they are forum bullies or type rating instructors

[mad_jock]

Awful lot of question when you refuse to answer ones given to you.

If you are a FII could you please explain the process in becoming a FII?

Give us your theory on learning and how students process information in the learning enviroment.

Then please explain the factors that can degrade the proccessing of information and the ability to learn form that information.

Then explain how the student will benefit from a formal long debrief from a first solo straight after completion.

[Pull what]

Ah Beagle I thought you were ignoring me!

One at a time

Most of the PPL is based on wartime methods with an bit of FAA fantasy thrown in by Ron Campbell in the 70s Oh really? From what factual information do you make such an assertion?

Too much time in the pub with Neville Birch

[Pull what]

Really -- do tell us more about which parts the RAF havnt used for 15-20 years.

Beagle can help you with this one, even I remember the VC10

[mad_jock]

Thus avoiding answering questions with yet more questions.

[Pull what]

The RAF turns out some very arrogant superior pilots-am I close? But, since you claim to have been a 'airline captain with 30 years of experience' , no less, how on earth would you have any idea about RAF training methods?

Perhaps you need to read some more of my posts and you will find out.

[Pull what]

Then explain how the student will benefit from a formal long debrief from a first solo straight after completion.

Dealing with the questions relevant to the thread and not the others.

I have never at anytime suggested a formal long de-brief ?

In my opinion a de brief is best covered as soon as possible after the event, when the detail is fresh in the mind. Leaving it until a later time may mean it is in fact never given.
As you were reminded it was you that stated that there is no need to observe a first solo but then try to say that students are individuals

[BEagle]

mad_jock, I agree. Clearly a Walt.....

One for everyones' ignore list, I fear?

[mad_jock]

Needs must I think BEagle.

Must get the same perverted satisfaction as DFC of winding people up talking pish about flying and instructing.

[Say again s l o w l y]

So, that's me, MJ, BEagle and Chuck who are all convinced of your Waltish behaviour.

I reckon that's at least a century of flying instruction there if not more.

I think the ignore button might be getting used again.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

So, that's me, MJ, BEagle and Chuck who are all convinced of your Waltish behaviour.

I know the expression " w a n k e r " is a " walt " the same thing?

I reckon that's at least a century of flying instruction there if not more.


I have over fifty years since I received my first instructors rating so there must be more than a century among us. :)

[Say again s l o w l y]

A "Walt" is a Walter Mitty. The character in the story by James Thuber, otherwise known as a shorthand for a fantasist.

I'd not stoop to call anyone a ouanquere on here. That's just a wee bit too personal for my liking.

[mad_jock]

Walts - ARRSEpedia (http://www.arrse.co.uk/wiki/Walt)

This covers what a walt is pretty well.

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

OK that's enough folks.