skill test

[screetch]

hi guys
i am hoping to get my skill test done soon and I am looking at the route i was given. I am sure we are not gonna fly the whole route but this is more like a general question of opinion.
Lets say i will go booker turweston duxford and back to booker. This will get me close to cranfield just at the edge of the luton cta (2x). Now according to the map when I fly below 3500ft I will be clear of controlled airspace.

1. when I would plan the route I would fly turweston and than via cranfield towards duxford. Cranfield is a good waypoint and also has a vor I can tune into. --> do you agree or would you go direct from turweston to duxford for the skill test?

Nav aids are there to be used, but I am not sure if this is what you are supposed to be doing in the test..

Let me know what u think

[Alan_D]

Having done a similar route recently, from Turweston, over SilverStone (watch for their heli pleasure flights), to Cranfield, asking for a zone transit, then towards Duxford. Check NOTAMs to see if Old Warden are active, and make blind calls before going through their zone, as they may have traffic even if the tower isn't manned.
You can go under the Luton zone edges (below 2500, 3500 or 4500' depending on where you are).
I'm based at Halton so know the area quite well.

[Whopity]

i am hoping to get my skill test done soon and I am looking at the route i was given. The Examiner should not give you the route more than 2-3 hours before you take off; this is to stop you becoming excessively familiar with the route and to prevent you seeking advice from others. The test route comprises of 3 points defining a triangle and that is what you are required to plan. If that route means you have to circumnavigate something, danger area weather etc, then the examiner will expect you to use a recognised method which allows you to regain the original route. You should not add your own turning points other than perhaps an offset start/finish point. You are not permitted to use a VOR until you have passed the first turning point, in your example Duxford! Hopefully on the day the examiner will give you a different route.

[cjhants]

you will obviously not get as far as duxford, i would brush up on your class D transit radio calls, and maybe expect to call luton for transit to somewhere south of their airspace. possibly the disused BAC factory at hatfield, or elstree.
but the examiner may change their mind at the pre exam briefing and go somewhere else, so dont get too far ahead of yourself.

best of luck for good WX

[PhillC]

1. when I would plan the route I would fly turweston and than via cranfield towards duxford. Cranfield is a good waypoint and also has a vor I can tune into. --> do you agree or would you go direct from turweston to duxford for the skill test?

No real need to make Cranfield a waypoint. You could set the VOR so you intercept the 180 radial from Cranfield and still fly Turweston - Duxford direct.

[screetch]

thanx PfillC, that is the answer I was looking for.

I am aware they might change the route. That doesnt really matter. I have done many NavEx and I got to like the planning part anyways. We will see how it goes.

[Lister Noble]

Nav ex.
Somewhere in the triangle you will have a diversion,this will happen when you are flying one of the legs,you will need to plot and fly the new route and manage the aircraft correctly.
You will be asked to find a waypoint such as an old airfield,lake or similar.
Anyway that's what happened to me.
Then after nav in the skills test you will be asked to demonstrate correct handling of the aircraft in all the situations that you have previously learned.total time around 3 hours,good luck.
Lister:)

[Ryan5252]

All,

Just passed the skills test today so quickly looked up the CAA Scheme of charges and am 99% certain the cost of the licence issue is £176. Can anyone who applied recently confirm this? Just I would hate to send all to them only to have it sent back if I fell two quid short!!

3.1 f):
"for the grant of a Private Pilot’s Licence, other than a Private Pilot’s Licence (Balloons and Airships) or a Private Pilot’s Licence (Gyroplanes), valid for five years, a charge of £176"Also, does anyone with recent experience have any clue as to the wait time? (My instructor advised to allow 6 weeks!! :eek:)

Thanks in advance
Ryan

[RedKnight]

Got my PPL about two months ago. Yes it's £176, and it was a 2-3week wait. Might be slightly longer now that it's the summer.

[Ryan5252]

RedKnight, thanks for the reply do you know if the £176 also covers the UK Flight Radiotelephony Operators Licence or is this yet another fee?

[joelgarabedian]

Ryan5252 - I got my licence in December, there's no charge for the FRTOL if you apply at the same time, so the £176 is correct.

Screetch - Good luck! I was not permitted to use navigation aids for the navigation part of my skills test (but was required to track to a VOR and then obtain a position fix using two VORs before we started the general handling). I don't know if that was just my examiner though - I wasn't given the route until the morning of the test either :)

Joel.

[Whopity]

I don't know if that was just my examiner though - I wasn't given the route until the morning of the test either The examiner was following the correct procedure.
there's no charge for the FRTOL if you apply at the same timeIf you hold a UK issued Flight Crew Licence or are training for one there is no additional charge for the FRTOL at any time! FCL508 Note 4 (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/SRG1106FF.pdf)If the licence is required for use with an existing CAA issued flight crew licence or a UK issued medical certificate, no fee is payable. In the case of holders of a valid medical certificate the, Section 5 should be endorsed by the FTO/RF and the certificate enclosed with the licence application.

[joelgarabedian]

If you hold a UK issued Flight Crew Licence or are training for one there is no additional charge for the FRTOL at any time! FCL508 Note 4 (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/SRG1106FF.pdf)I did not know that! Thanks for the correction Whopity :ok:

Joel.

[screetch]

did you guys did a full passanger and captains brief?
What do you say? Can I get an example?

[Whopity]

What do you say? Can I get an example?
Try the Air Navigation Order!
Passenger briefing by commander
88.—(1) Subject to paragraph (3), the commander of an aircraft registered in the United Kingdom must take all reasonable steps to ensure that before take-off on any flight, all passengers are made familiar with the position and method of use of—
(a) emergency exits;
(b) safety belts (with diagonal shoulder strap where required to be carried);
(c) safety harnesses (if required to be carried);
(d) oxygen equipment, lifejackets and the floor path lighting system (where required to be carried); and
(e) all other devices required by or under this Order and intended for use by passengers individually in the case of an emergency occurring to the aircraft.
(2) Subject to paragraph (3), the commander of an aircraft registered in the United Kingdom must also take all reasonable steps to ensure that in an emergency during a flight, all passengers are instructed in the emergency action which they should take.

[Ryan5252]

did you guys did a full passanger and captains brief?
What do you say? Can I get an example?

Me: "Would you like me to brief you on emergency procedures?"
Examiner: "No thank you"

Fair enough then. :ok:. After start and during taxi I did ask him if, as examiner, he wanted to test his breaks to make sure he was happy with them. I think this went down well as he seemed delighted by this suggestion!

[Whopity]

There is no Captains brief in a single pilot aeroplane for which you are being tested! This originates from people who are learning to fly multi-crew. The law (Article 88) requires that the commander must make all reasonable steps to ensure that passengers are briefed accordingly. The examiner is probably pretending to be a passenger so listen to what he says he is, and brief him accordingly.

[screetch]

well one of my instructors does a captains brief at the before take off check stage.
The other one does not..that why I never really learned what to say. However it was something along the lines: "We are using 06 runway on the hard. There is a slight wind blah blah. At 55kts we rotate. If there is any sign off trouble we will try and stop on the runway. After takeoff we do a turn towards..."

Do you guys do this for your own SEP flying?? or for the skill test? I mean it is in my C152 checklist..

[RedKnight]

I do that before each and every flight, if only to remind myself of what I'm doing (or what I'm about to do). I certainly did it for my skills test. Treat the instructor as a passenger and give him/her a full safety brief, including what to do during an in-flight emergency as per the ANO.

[joelgarabedian]

My instructors encouraged me to do it, and I did it on the skills test too. I still try to do it now, more to get the emergency procedure imprinted in my own mind rather than for the benefit of anyone else! The brief I was taught goes like this...

"We are using runway 20. Wind is 240/10, so we have a crosswind from the right. We will rotate at 60 knots. If we encounter a problem prior to rotation, we will come to a stop on the runway. If a problem occurs after rotation and there is sufficient runway ahead to land, we will do so. If there is insufficient runway ahead to land, we will look to land ahead, no more than 30 degrees either side."

or something like that :)

Joel.

[Pull what]

Hello Joel

"We are using runway 20. Wind is 240/10, so we have a crosswind from the right. We will rotate at 60 knots. If we encounter a problem prior to rotation, we will come to a stop on the runway. If a problem occurs after rotation and there is sufficient runway ahead to land, we will do so. If there is insufficient runway ahead to land, we will look to land ahead, no more than 30 degrees either side."Using the word 'we' is ambiguous, who is actually going to fly the aircraft, using 'we' is like saying 'we have control'--With two pilots at the controls it is always essential to know who is in control and when, and if, the situation may change, this is very important during a skill test when the examiner may have to take the role as commander to conclude the flight

Saying, "if you encounter a problem we will come to a stop on the runway" in my opinion is a dangerous statement." I would define that as:

If we have have an engine failure, fire or problem that would render the aircraft un flyable I will stop.

For instance if the door opened on the C152 it would be a problem but we would not stop. Always consider that some problems sometimes can be dealt with more safely in the air.

You are also saying after take off you will re-land if there is a problem, again you are putting a very ambiguous potentially dangerous statement into your mind- would you really re-land for any problem? Beware of making a minor problem into a major one by misunderstanding. An off airfield landing (or re-land) is not something you should elect to do lightly.

You also state that you would only consider landing within a 30 degree area either side of the centreline-so if there was a housing estate within that area you would land in it rather than the field 45 degree to the left? I would replace your 30 degrees with "In the event of engine failure after take off I will land in the safest area available"

Also remember that the ability to turn safely through a larger angle increase with altitude.(and experience).

Its a shame that many pilots never ever consider a local brief, Eg runway length & areas to avoid after TO in the event of an EFATO or even noise abatement.

In regard to pre flight briefing, as an examiner, I expect the candidate to point out how to get out of the aircraft in an emergency, the use of the seat belts and the position of the fire extinguisher and first aid kit before flight and the operation of any emergency equipment appropriate to the flight.

At some stage before flight, I do it it during the pre flight briefing, I would aslo tell the candidate that in the event of a major emergency I will take control of the aircraft by announcing, "I have control". you will respond by saying " You have control". I will then fly the aircraft to a safe place and may ask you to assist with any checks that need to be actioned.

[Postiee]

For my NPPL navigation skills test I just asked the examiner if it was OK to skip the briefing. The reply was oh god, yes please !
I did ask her to test the brakes when we were on the taxiway though, which she did.
During take off the door on the C-150 did open but I just ignored it until I had some time to slam it shut. Thankfully, the seat didn't slide back that day.
I suppose the important thing is to make sure you don't just ignore the briefing, but I would imagine most examiners would let you skip it.

[Pull what]

but I would imagine most examiners would let you skip it.If I had no interst in your personal safety and that of your future passengers i would let you skip it too! There is always professional pride too. The problem with everything today is that everyone is always looking for the easy option, the short cut, its just as easy to do things correctly.

The next time an examiner says it's OK to skip something, ask him/her if it is alright if you can skip paying the examinatioin fee too, just to balance it out and see what they say.

[BEagle]

The only thing I can remember from my PPL GFT in 1968 was the Examiner advising me ALWAYS to check that the 'passenger' had actually strapped in! He'd obscured his (unfastened) seat belt with his arms to make the point.

On PPL Skill Tests, once we were in the aircraft, I would explain that I was to be thought of as a (reasonably) intelligent passenger who wouldn't ask silly questions, but would point out any aeroplane he saw. On the first navigation leg, all I wanted to know was the ETA at the turning point (with any update) and, if we were off planned track, I'd just want the pilot just to describe what he/she was doing to sort things out.

"If I don't say anything, I've probably just fallen asleep!"

For the 'emergency brief', I would expect something clear and simple. If the pilot launched into a full "Welcome aboard this PA28....." speech, then I would just let him/her get on with it - mainly so that they felt they'd earned a smartie point. But then I'd explain that, as I was the actual Commander, if anything actually went wrong at a critical moment, I would probably take control using the executive words "I have control" - but my intentions would be exactly as the pilot had described.

All those flying a PPL Skill Test should remember:

We've all had to do it ourselves.
There'll be nothing in it you haven't done before.
You wouldn't be doing it if your instructor didn't think you were ready for it.
WE WANT YOU TO PASS!

[joelgarabedian]

Very interesting points Pull_What,

With regard to the safety brief, I've always done this with passengers in the aircraft, but before startup. I save the captain's brief until after the power checks.

You're absolutely right in every case. Obviously I'm referring to "I" when I say "we", but there's clearly no point in doing the brief if it could cause further confusion. I'll use "I" in future, which is an easy fix :) Again, when I say "encounter a problem", I do mean "in the event that the aircraft is unflyable", but like you say, I should be more specific about the circumstances that will result in aborting the takeoff, especially since the main purpose of the brief is an attempt to condition my response to an emergency.

Landing back on the runway is an interesting prospect. That's certainly one part of the brief I'm guilty of repeating parrot-fashion. I'm not sure that in the event of an EFATO, I'd be able to accurately determine whether I had enough runway ahead to land.

I wouldn't favour flying into a housing estate in favour of a field 15 degrees further on, but where do you draw the line? In the book "The Killing Zone", the author advises heading into trees under controlled flight rather than attempting to turn too far and risking a stall / spin. I'm sure that judgement improves with experience, but chances of engine failure through mismanagement are higher with lack of experience!

Thanks for your comments, I'm still a new PPL and learning all the time :ok:

Joel.

[Pull what]

WE WANT YOU TO PASS!

Exactly, in 36 years I have failed two students, one flew me back to the wrong airfield and the other let it be known, through an other instructor, that I would recieve a cash incentive if he passed!

[AJArkley]

Morning all,

Sorry to hijack the thread, but whats the rough length of time for a skills test? I heard usually between a 1.5 and a 2.0

[Pull what]

Hello again Joel


With regard to the safety brief, I've always done this with passengers in the aircraft, but before startup. I save the captain's brief until after the power checks.Yes safety brief before start-ensure pax can actually undo the belt latch-it was my suggestion in 1981 to the CAA, through my flight ops inspector, that changed the public transport briefings in that the action of the release had to demonstrated. I had noticed that at the end of flights as an air taxi pilot that most pax could not undo the release easlily as they were expecting them to be like car belts.


Landing back on the runway is an interesting prospect. That's certainly one part of the brief I'm guilty of repeating parrot-fashion. I'm not sure that in the event of an EFATO, I'd be able to accurately determine whether I had enough runway ahead to land. It is an interesting exercise to do some perf calcs on your runways to see where you become airbourne and where you would end up if you landed back from say 50-100 feet.

I wouldn't favour flying into a housing estate in favour of a field 15 degrees further on, but where do you draw the line? In the book "The Killing Zone", the author advises heading into trees under controlled flight rather than attempting to turn too far and risking a stall / spin. I'm sure that judgement improves with experience, but chances of engine failure through mismanagement are higher with lack of experience!You cannot learn to fly by numbers alone-the course has to encourage a development of your judgement not just figures based on folk lore.

Thanks for your comments, I'm still a new PPL and learning all the time I am an old ALTP and learning all the time too!

By the way I forgot the crosswind situation on EFATO-imagine a 20 kt wind from the left or right-how would that effect your chosen field?

[joelgarabedian]

Thanks for the reply Pull_what,

By the way I forgot the crosswind situation on EFATO-imagine a 20 kt wind from the left or right-how would that effect your chosen field?

It depends on the distance to the field - with engine failure at altitude and reasonably strong wind, I'd favour a field downwind, as I'd be able to cover more ground before landing. However, I'd reserve enough altitude to give me time to turn into wind for the touchdown. It's not something I've thought about in great detail before, but with a strong crosswind and EFATO, if the field was very close I'd probably favour turning into wind to minimise groundspeed at touchdown. I could cover more distance turning downwind, but I'd have insufficient altitude to turn back into wind before landing, so would end up landing with a strong tailwind and high ground speed. What would you suggest?

Joel.

[Pull what]

I only mention it as a consideration-you may be able to find a suitable landing area straight ahead but if you took an option to, say the left, with a croswind from the right your groundspeed would be higher and hence your 'collision with any scenary speed' would be higher too.

If you think about the aim of the exercise it is TO SAVE LIFE. You are not interested in the aircraft, only its occupants, so you need to chose an area (and manoevre) to complete that will allow just that. So many students seem to think that there will be a 1000 metre strip waiting for then when they lower the nose, all you need is the best area to get the aircraft onto and apply the brakes, you are very likely to have an over run- so that needs to be a consideration too. The Hawthorn hedge on the short field may be a better option than the brick wall on the longer field.

I would add- I would alway try and go for the into wind area --landing downwind puts your touchdown speed up and thus impact speed it also increases the risk of overun and a more serious impact.

As someone once said, aim for the field with the cheapest, sofest overun and go there at minimum speed!

[mur007]

and the other let it be known, through an other instructor, that I would recieve a cash incentive if he passed!

Haha ... out of interest would he have passed otherwise or was he offering money because he knew he was c**p?

[Pull what]

He was pretty good actually and I was pretty broke at the time!

[screetch]

thanks for all the responses. Definetly more than I have expected. the closer I get to the test the more I worry and get my self nervous. I just dont want to be the first to fail the skill test...

At least the bbc weather says sunny for saturday and sunday. I am brushing up on the Met exam. However i dont think taking the exam on saturday morning and than doing the last revision before the skill test on sunday. This is all really compact.. but maybe this is for the best. Too much time gives too much time to worry about it.

i have another question though: Stalls -deleted-

[bingofuel]

This close to your test, ask your instructor to give you a recap, he knows you and knows what you have done.
We all have concerns before tests but if your instructor says you are ready, trust his judgement.

[BEagle]

i have another question though: Stalls. I think we will cover stall without power, stall with bank angle and stall with flaps (approach config). In all you push the controls forward, use rudder to prevent yaw and roll and ease out of the dive or simultanious add power and pitch up into the climp. So what was the main difference between them again? It is all the SSR except when you do not have power.

When having 30deg flaps do you get them up before adding power or after you added power and pitch up for a climb away?

If you have to ask such questions, you shouldn't even be flying solo. Let alone expecting to take a PPL Skill Test in 3 days time....:=

[RedKnight]

Throttle up to max power and release the back pressure on the control column. DON'T PUSH IT FORWARD.

The stall w/o power manoeuvre is fairly straightforward, since it is done in straight and level flight.

The manoeuvre simulating a stall whilst turning onto base/final is slightly more complex, at it requires you to balance the aircraft and roll out as you increase the power simultaneously. But it all happens very quickly and you'll be climbing in a flash. If you can't do both acts simultaneously, increase the power before you roll out the aircraft (because applying the ailerons whilst in a stall will disrupt the already-poor airflow and may potentially send you into an uncontrollable spin).

And finally the manoeuvre simulating a stall on final approach, though it's done whilst the aircraft is not banking, is arguably the trickiest. It requires you to immediately retract one stage of flap (3rd -> 2nd) as you simultaneously increase the power. As soon as you establish a positive rate of climb, retract the 2nd stage, and once again when you establish a positive rate of climb, retract the flaps entirely. It's especially important that you do NOT push the control column forward here because you're simulating a stall on final approach, i.e. you may be very close to the ground already and you do not want to loose any height by pushing the column forward, even if that means you restore your airspeed quicker. Height is of the essence here. Don't forget that the retraction of each stage of flap causes your aircraft to sink as you momentarily lose lift, so you should retract them one at a time and only when you have established a positive rate of climb. Also note that you shouldn't be pitching up right after a stall; although you want to gain height, you first need to gain airspeed! The key is to maintain your height as your airspeed picks up, and once you hit Vx/Vy, climb away.

Hope that helps!

[Whopity]

As an examiner I want to know that the student is aware of his legal responsibilities towards passengers. Any briefing must be accurate and understandable. You willl do this, I will do that, no room for the Royal "WE". They need to know where the exits are, how to use them how to Brace etc.

A passenger does not need to know anything about staying on the runway, problems with the aeroplane, landing ahead or "Rotate" speeds which only apply to Perf A aeroplanes. Start telling them all sorts of crap and you will confuse them and most probably frighten them to death.

If we had to land in a field, I will ask you to open the door and adopt the brace position! Do they know what to do? If not show them. You might add that this is to ensure that you can get out of the aeroplane following the landing and bracing ensures they wont bang their head in the event of landing on rough ground.

If the student clearly knows what they are about, there is no need to labour the issue. If they fail to brief, it becomes one of the Aural questions in Section G. If they start spouting irrelevant garbage its part of the process of digging a big hole that often ends in failure.

When conducting stalling exercises, the examiner needs to see that you deonstrate correct use of controls during the stall and recovery; your comments above indicate that you are not sure so how will you convince the examiner that you are safe to carry passengers?

[blagger]

I think people often get confused between passenger brief (best done on the ground when getting passengers into the aircraft) and the emergencies brief (best done at end of the pre-takeoff checks).

[Whopity]

They do indeed and its all because modern instructors have been trained as airline pilots first and instructors second.

[bingofuel]

Screetch

Do you really understand what is happening to the aircraft as it approaches a stall or does actually stall, and do you know why you move some controls before others. In particular are you aware of what could happen if you apply aileron to attempt to level the wings whilst at or near the stall?

[bingofuel]

I see RedKnight took the hint and edited his message, getting better!

[screetch]

hi there..sorry I written my last blog under time pressure and it did sound a bit like i wasnt sure what I was talking about. --> but I dont appreciate any comments like I should not be flying. :mad:It is one thing to know about it and fly properly but another thing to try and write done exactly what you are going to do from memory and beeing unsure about one or two things. At least that what it is for me. :ugh:

1. yes passanger brief I do before actually starting the plane
2. the "emergency brief" is called captains brief in my checklist and is done before you call ready for departure is is more flight, emergency related and explains about the take off etc "joelgarabedian (http://www.pprune.org/members/311134-joelgarabedian)" had pretty much summed it up as I would do the brief

3. Stalls:
The manoeuvre simulating a stall whilst turning onto base/final --> i learned to never roll level before increasing airspeed to make sure the wings are unstalled and you do not risk spinning etc

4. What kind of other inflight emergency drills are common during the skill test apart from the engine failture, divertion?

[bingofuel]

In a single pilot aeroplane there is no point reciting to pax what you intend to do if the engine fails on take off. They probably will not understand what you are talking about and will start asking questions which will distract you from the task in hand.

The way to do it in SPA is, as you line up 'mentally rehearse what might happen and how you would react' that is all.

The same with 'in flight checks', check what your examiner would like you to do, but I would say the professional approach is to do them silently. Talking out loud about fuel, mixture, pumps etc, again can upset passengers if they are nervous.

[The500man]

My PPL instructor told me a passenger brief is essential, but the emergency brief is good practice for when undertaking the CPL skill test where it is required. I think if you do do an emergency brief it's important to be sure about what you are going to do and make it clear that it is YOU that will do it. "I will rotate at.... I will land back on the runway..." etc.

My skill test was just over 2 hours. It's best to exaggerate your checks to make sure the examiner knows you have done them. I'm not sure it should be considered more professional to do the checks silently, I think pilot activity where passengers don't know what you are doing is when they start to become apprehensive or afraid.

In terms of emergencies, you'll definitely get the PFL, and be prepared for an EFATO when climbing away straight after it. Otherwise you can look forward to it in the circuits.

I'd ask the examiner to do the circuits last. It'll save you some money if it all goes wrong in the Nav.

For the Nav section, plan well away from any potential problem sites as the first leg is all dead reckoning. When you get the diversion, plan it, fly it, and while enroute sort out a position fix. That way you'll have all the time you need to sort it out rather than it being dropped on you.

The CAA charged me an extra £4.25 to send my license and log book etc. back to me. It did take around 3 weeks (Arrived yesterday).

Hope this helps, good luck.

[Pull what]

My PPL instructor told me a passenger brief is essential, but the emergency brief is good practice for when undertaking the CPL skill test where it is required.Remind your PPL instructor it is not just essential, it is written in law


The Commander of an aircraft is responsible for the safety and well- being of his passengers and the law requires a pre-flight safety briefing in any UK registered aircraft. This applies to ALL aircraft, including gliders, balloons, microlights and helicopters, as well as ‘conventional’ aeroplanes.

(Article 53 of the Air Navigation Order (ANO) 2005)

but I dont appreciate any comments like I should not be flying.

Beagle didnt say you shouldnt be flying he said you should not be flying solo and with what you posted he is correct-apart from your own safety, if you cannot recite the correct stall recovery on the ground you are hardly going to able to carry it out on a skill test. My advice to you is get some more dual training before ST and ensure you can recite the recovery correctly. You can also practice stall recovery sitting on the sofa, providing you can recite the actions!!!

[The500man]

Pull what, I don't think the emergency brief (after power checks) is part of the pre-flight safety brief for passengers. You have briefed your passengers already, before starting the engine and before walking out to the plane.

You don't get on an airliner and here the Captain tell you what speed he will rotate at, and what he will do if things go wrong. This is purely for the examiner. He needs to know that you know what you are doing, and flying the plane as you intend to (rotating at the airspeed you say will; climbing at the airspeed you say you will etc.)

[Pull what]

Pull what, I don't think the emergency brief (after power checks) is part of the pre-flight safety brief for passengers. You have briefed your passengers already, before starting the engine and before walking out to the plane.

You don't get on an airliner and here the Captain tell you what speed he will rotate at, and what he will do if things go wrong. This is purely for the examiner. He needs to know that you know what you are doing, and flying the plane as you intend to (rotating at the airspeed you say will; climbing at the airspeed you say you will etc.)Thank you, as an airline captain with over 30 years experince of heavy jet aircraft I can assure you are I am familar with both the passenger and commanders or take off briefings. You are confusing the two briefings, which have little to do with each other-one is a legal mandatory requirement on all aircraft, the other is good aviation practice but mandatory on public transport aircraft as it is a published requirement that is contained in the CAA approved operations manual which is required by all UK AOC holders

[Pull what]

Throttle up to max power and release the back pressure on the control column. DON'T PUSH IT FORWARD.

This is not a standard stall recovery

[The500man]

Thank you, as an airline captain with over 30 years experince of heavy jet aircraft I can assure you are I am familar with both the passenger and commanders or take off briefings.

Appologies Pull what, I misread which briefing you were referring to, and misunderstood your point.

Out of interest, if you were flying a light aircraft, would you tell passengers what checks you were doing and say them aloud or just do them silently? I may have my first passengers next week!

[Ryan5252]

Remind your PPL instructor it is not just essential, it is written in law
Would the fact that it is written in law not be the reason why it is essential? Or did you assume because it was never specified in the post that the instructor knew it was a legal obligation therefore he/she was unaware of it or had forgotten it? :ugh:

[Pull what]

Or did you assume because it was never specified in the post that the instructor knew it was a legal obligation therefore he/she was unaware of it or had forgotten it?

With respect professional instruction is about clear unambiguous advice, it is essential to use common sense too but it is not a legal requirement!

[Ryan5252]

Personally I can't see anything unclear or even 'ambiguous' in statement such as: "It is essential that you...", but hey that's just me.

[Pull what]

Out of interest, if you were flying a light aircraft, would you tell passengers what checks you were doing and say them aloud or just do them silently? I may have my first passengers next week!No apology needed at all, in fact congratulations on finishing your training-they say you always remember your first solo but I cannot rember mine but I can vividly remember carrying my first passenger and it did not go very well. While I was in the local area the tower radio failed and the passenger became very concerned when she could hear that I was continually transmitting and not receiving any reply-she started to ask me continual questions which made it more difficult for me to decide what to do!

Before I get to your question I will tell you about two other pax I had on first light aircraft flights(theirs).


I took off with a guy who had his mother in the rear seat just after lift off she started screaming and I do meaning screaming- She was having some sort of fit and frightened to death, she continued screaming all the way around my short circuit until I touched down making it very difficult for me to fly the aircraft and talk to ATC.

Years later I was doing pleasure flying at a flying display and just after lift off a woman in the seat behind started screamimng in the same way. Of course the experienced Captain Pull What now knew exactly how to deal with the situation. I turned to her and said, " Dont worry, stay calm, I will make an immeadiate return to the airfield -she replied, (and I quote exactly) " Why, this is absolutely Fxxxing marvellous"!

No I would not personally shout out checks aloud to pax but if you feel happier doing this thats what you must do. You need to give the pax confidence, the use of a written check list helps with this, even if its only a token gesture.

If your passenger has never been in a light aircraft before be gentle but confident!

Oh and don't do what I did one day:

I was boarding the aircraft with the pax down the jetway after completing the walk around, a passenger said to me, "is it good flying conditions today captain i am a nervous flyer"? I replied, " its fantastic and dont worry I am feeling extremely lucky today"!

[Ryan5252]

Nice post PW thank you for that and your advises. I think the moral of the story is then don't fly with women! :}

Ryan

[screetch]

hi so I took my last written exam with a pass and also finished my revision. So tomorrow is the big day. We did different landing configurations and emergency landings etc. This goes rather well. Just to be sure I will refresh the stalls now. So wish me all the best.

[Ryan5252]

So wish me all the best.All the best!

Make sure you get plenty of sleep and arrive at the airport in plenty of time. This will get you off on a good footing and you wont be scrambling about looking for stuff. Get your route as soon as possible (if you havn't already been given it) and study it well for different landmarks on the way. The diversion will come on the second leg so take a look at likely places as you will have an allowance on your ETA of +/- 3 minutes.

EDIT: Might be a bit late now but I brought the POH of the aircraft home two days in advance of skills test and apart from the weight & balance and helping you with the general questions posed by the examiner it is actually a darn good read - a real page turner!! (Sorry if that sounds a bit sad but you will learn some stuff about your own plane that you never knew before every time you it; it shows how wet we really are behind the ears)

Keep it simple and keep it safe and I am sure you'll ace it so best of luck!! :ok:

[sprthompson]

Good luck tomorrow, I'll be watching the skies... Let us know how it goes

[screetch]

I PASSED, however i did do mistakes as well and thus booked myself in next week for some revision to be sure I iron the mistake out.

Now I have to get the RT license test done. Any idea how this is done and what to expect?

[bingofuel]

Congratulations and enjoy your new privilege of flying.

[The500man]

I took off with a guy who had his mother in the rear seat just after lift off she started screaming and I do meaning screaming- She was having some sort of fit and frightened to death, she continued screaming all the way around my short circuit until I touched down making it very difficult for me to fly the aircraft and talk to ATC.


Note to self: Always carry a mallet in flight bag! :)

Congratulations Screetch!

Now I have to get the RT license test done. Any idea how this is done and what to expect?

The R/T test is fairly staight forward. Probably varies depending on where you do it. When I did mine, I was given the option to just do the test or have a practice first. The practice is a very good idea and it cost an extra £20. I recommend you do the practice first!

The test was around £50 and was basically sitting with a headset on with a make shift radio panel going through the r/t of a pre-determined flight while the examiner pretends to be ATC sitting in another room.

Mine was a AA5A flying from a radio only field, transitting a MATZ and then SVFR through a control zone, followed by a Mayday, and finally a Pan call.

I was actually more nervous doing the r/t then I was doing the flight test but that's probably just me!

They tell you straight away the result, and then (hopefully) fill out your license aplication form.

[Pull what]

Well dome Screech--

You dont need a mallet-always ask your pax:

Have you flown in a light aircraft before?

[screetch]

hi no I havent. I have just been in my C152. I am considering a C172 difference training so I can take up a few of my friends. I am trying to get to fly a sportcruiser.

why do you ask about light aircraft. do you have one spare?

[joelgarabedian]

Congratulations Screetch! :D

[Pull what]

Always ask you pax---Have you flown in a light aircraft before?

And make sure there are sick bags handy?

[joelgarabedian]

And make sure there are sick bags handyIncredibly valuable advice! I picked up a few before taking anyone for a flight after getting my PPL and tucked them into the back of my kneeboard. The first few people I took up were absolutely fine, and I almost forgot they were there.

Then, one afternoon, I took a friend up. It was CAVOK, the air was cool and the wind was light. We were about half an hour away from the field when I noticed he'd stopped talking. I looked across at him and saw that his skin had taken on a green hue and a rather disturbing clammy sheen. I asked him to move the headset microphone away from his mouth, and handed him a sick bag. I headed straight back to Shoreham, but by the time we got there he'd pretty much filled the bag. There was nothing else in the aircraft we could have used - that bag saved the day. ;)

I felt terrible after the flight - Talking about it afterwards, my friend said that the sickness had started when he looked behind at the runway on the climbout. He hoped it would just go away, so he didn't mention it, but I suspected that he'd thought he would spoil the fun by asking me to turn back. Of course I would have much rather have returned early with him having enjoyed the flight, than spent the last half of the flight feeling guilty I hadn't noticed my passenger wasn't feeling well earlier!

Joel.

[Pull what]

Joel always carry a poly bag with no holes in too.

After a charter flight (2 local councillors to the IOM) the one got onto the wing (Aztec) with his half full sick bag and the bottom bust and it all went down his suit!

Remember if you get sick in the aircraft the school/club will expect you to clean up!

[screetch]

i get the feeling my flightbag is getting too small now, but a few sickbags is certainly a good idea. However handing them out before may just instigates that your PAX is in for a wild ride? :cool: Anyways it is good advise.

So i have completed all my paperwork and everything should be send off to the caa today. I think it takes 6 weeks? Gosh that is a long time. I booked myself in with an instructor next week and in two weeks time i will rent a plane as solo student for some circuits just to keep on top of it and do my 3 landings and takeoff before i can finally take my girlfriend up with me.

hopefully i can fly with lots of people from booker so i get the feel of different aircraft, other pilots and get to fly.

[RedKnight]

Out of curiosity - who here would issue a PAN PAN call in response to a passenger becoming sick?

[joelgarabedian]

Screetch - No need to hand them out before you start, just keep an eye on your passengers, and tell them to let you know as soon as they feel ill. Like you say, it's probably a bit unnerving climbing into a light aircraft for the first time and being handed a sick bag :)

RedKnight - It did cross my mind, especially once I got back to Shoreham and had to wait in the overhead whilst ATC helped another pilot who was unable to find the field despite being close enough to disrupt the circuit traffic. I decided that it wasn't actually a medical emergency, and so the situation didn't warrant a Pan Pan.

Joel.

[mad_jock]

If its air sick and barfing in a bag personally I wouldn't

Any hint of them passing out or becoming unresponsive to verbal instructions declare PAN or MAYDAY it doesn't really matter what you call the reponce will be exactly the same from the ATC.

Also if they start leaking bodly fluids apart from barfing again declare.

But have a think on your own work load. If they are causing you problems and degrading your ability to manage the flight safely call a pan for a barfing pax. Your not an instructor who can form a barf bag using a chart while flying the approach using the rudder pedals and holding some ones hair out of the puke while trying to flick away thier mike. ;)

Personally I wouldn't hand out barf bags at the start of the flight just have them under your knee board or in a door pocket within easy reach. If someone is in a mind they will feel sick a barf bag will reforce that feeling.

[almurray]

Hi,
In reply to everyones posts, ive just done my skills test and passed!!

Mine was :

couple of hours before given the route, planned it at home, looked at F214/215`s Metars and Tafs.

Turned up, went through the whole test with the CAA examiner who was spot on, great guy.

Gave me a weight balance sheet to complete and wanted to know if we would take off with runway avail.
Weight /Balance was out of the envelope, so I suggested adding some baggage, which put everything on track!

Went out checked the aircraft, and as I was finishing, asked me a few things about the aircraft, nothing major. Got in started to do the internal checks, asked me about how much fuel we had and what our endurance was.

Started up, did brake test, and checked DI worked. Start up checks, then we did a Short Take off.

Went off on first leg, made sure I climbed to cruise height at starting point rather than enroute, something which he liked.
Flew very well, and arrived at pin point and turning point give or take a minute.
Then on second leg, told me we`d be doing a VOR `location lost test` which went fine as I knew where I was.
Unplanned diversion, working out heading, time enroute, and ETA. Went fine too

Was told after that I had passed the Nav part.

Then flew to do PFL`s and Stalls. Messed up my base leg stall... tried to rotate before applying full power... Examiner then showed me how I should have done it, then did it fine after that.
PFL went well, he gave me plenty time for find a field I was going to `land` in. Due to location it was went down to about 700feet, all worked out well, as I was climbing away, pulled throttle off, sim engine failure on take off.

Came back into the circuit and after descending deadside, did flapless approach, then low level bad weather, both go arounds, when I was about 50feet off the ground, and finally, a short field landing!

Advice, speak your mind.. everything you think you are going to do say it!

Hope this helps

Al

PA28, Sherburn in Elmet up in sunny Yorkshire

[BEagle]

Congratulations!

A couple of points though:

Was told after that I had passed the Nav part. Examiners are not permitted to tell you whether you've passed an individual section until after the test. So although your Examiner was very kind to have done so, others are more likely to stick to the rules.....

Examiner then showed me how I should have done it, then did it fine after that. The Examiner isn't permitted to do that - all he/she is permitted to do is to tell you to repeat the test item. Although a comment such as "Sorry, perhaps I didn't make myself clear. I would like you to show me safe recovery with minimum height loss from a stall in the approach configuration, recovering when I say the word 'Recover'" might give applicants a reminder clue or two.....

Anyway, well done - you passed! Enjoy!!

[almurray]

Cheers,

Maybe so, the weather wasnt that clever so was going to do it in two parts, so he said I had passed.

Not that bothered,maybe my wording as I would hate to get anyone into trouble!

Passed and tried my best to help people like I was unsure about what actually happens in plain language, as there seems a sense to over complicate things,

alm

[thing]

Congrats Al, well done!

[almurray]

Thanks...RT practical booked, for next week due to work commitments, didnt realise it was a 2.5hr test!
Any points??

alm

[pitot_noob]

I agree about not declaring a Pan, though if ATC are not too busy dealing with something else, I see no harm in a polite and professional mention that you're passenger is a bit airsick and that is why you are returning before planned. It makes people aware but also *may* just get you down a little bit quicker.

Just a thought :)


On the topic of RT, I presume it is the same one for all licenses, CPL / PPL, if so, the actual test shouldn't take 2.5 hours! I think mine last about 30 mins to an hour and is fairly straight forward if you are used to UK comms (which I wasn't - as I had flown only in the USA before that point, which is quite different!), so I did quite a lot of reading before hand.
I suggest looking at http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/AviationGuideFinal20090917_LOCKED.pdf which is quite good as it also has playable audio built into it & the CAP: http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP413.PDF

[almurray]

Thanks for that I`ll have a look !

Lets hope nope I presume the time I gave was the whole briefing/debriefing etc etc

alm

[pitot_noob]

Yeh, you'll be briefed before hand on how the system works and then debrief afterwards on how you did and what you can do better.

[almurray]

WOW that was....interesting! Hope I never fly that route..

RT passed, and application posted off!!

3 weeks to wait ...........

Damn

Alm