Seaplane landings England legal?

[AdamFrisch]

Can someone summarize the rules on this for me as I can't find anything about it online.

Are you allowed o land on lakes and in the sea in England with floatplanes? I seem to recall that England and Wales are very prickly about all this, whilst Scotland is pretty much wide open. Does anyone know?

[irish seaplane]

MMmm, Solicitors sometimes cant even give legal opinions so I wont give you a legal anything. In short answer there are alot of waters in England that have been used, namely freshwater ones I have 4/5 marked on GE that various people have used.

As regards landing on the Sea, its only G-ESSL I know that uses it regularly but as far my flying budget goes the salt water would just blow the whole lot on maintenance. Its rarely suitable, and wouldnt be a good plan for everyday use. I have a lovely LA-4-200 for Sale if you want something sensible to use off whatever place you choose. PM if your interested.

Irish

[AdamFrisch]

Thanks.

I love Lakes and I know exactly which aircraft you're selling. Burgundy and blue striped, right? At the moment can't afford such lovely things, but perhaps soon..

Just wanted to hear some of the practicalities of having a seaplane in the UK. It seems a bit like a hassle. Lake district allow it?

[Hen Ddraig]

Lake district is a big no. Nothing over 10 knots is permited on the water anywhere in the lakes.


Time to spare, go by air.

Hen ddraig

[Whopity]

The problem with inland water is that it will be owned by someone. You will need their permission!

[stickandrudderman]

It's just not practical in England AFAIK.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Lake district is a big no. Nothing over 10 knots is permited on the water anywhere in the lakes.
And four knots on the canals, so they're not much use either :)

[AdamFrisch]

But nobody owns the sea, right? And as long as outside the London CTA, the Thames should be fine, no? There is no speed limit on the eastern Thames, as far as I know.

[gasax]

Adam, do some basic research, is google a mystery to you?

To land in inland waters you need the 'landowners' permission, no different to farm strips but more difficult to get.

If you think landing in the sea is smart - try to get some sensible info - yes it is possible - but it needs serious maintenance.

There are also serious operational difficulties in using coastal water and as for using a marina - very difficult is the best description.

Do some searching and gain some insight!

[AdamFrisch]

Gasax, I've had internet since 1994 and believe me that's exactly what I've done. I'm not new to research. You try to Google any permutation of seaplane, water landings, England, UK etc and you come up with pretty much nothing. The UK Seaplane Association's website has nothing on it except petitions. This is a flying and pilots forum after all.

Lake's are regularly operated out of salt water in both Florida and the Bahamas. Corrosion X, regular fresh water rinses and vigilant repaints keep them healthy.

[L'aviateur]

I am curious to see what the result is from this. I've seen a lot of seaplane operations around Europe and the States (C206 & C208), both in coastal waters and in harbours.
Have seen permission granted in Barcelona Port and obviously in Hamburg on the river they use the seaplane for tourism on a daily basis.

So, why aren't seaplanes used so much in the UK, i am interested to see where this thread goes.

And on the C208, yes the seaplane operations does result in corrosion, and the likes of turbine blades are susceptible, thus that should be taken into account. But aside from that, they seem to do pretty well in choppy water, and quite easily get permissions.

[tmmorris]

I think the opposition of the Lake District has a lot to do with it - there is England's premier sea/floatplane operating area completely out of bounds. That leaves some reservoirs, a few lakes in Wales, and the sea - for the reasons stated not an easy option.

Sad, really. I remember watching a floatplane landing on Lake Como while sipping white wine on a hotel balcony in Bellagio. Magical.

Tim

[mary meagher]

Now my understanding, a bit rusty, is unless the lake is specifically prohibited, you can land on it in Florida. ( And probably in Alaska, and Minnesota, the land of 1,000 lakes)

The only thing is, everything on or in the water has right of way over your seaplane, including alligators, swimmers, waterskiers, whatever, as they do not understand your needs.

In general, watery surfaces are a lot more available in the US and Canada than they are in the UK, here it is ancient landlord and fishing rights that get in the way, and of course in the Lake District, the understandable desire for peace and quiet.

Problem with landing on the Thames might be that the authorities tend to frown on flying under bridges.....

Ireland, being less crowded, and having removed the English Landlords, might be more welcoming to a seaplane operation?

But in the UK, alas, even the classic old seaplanes that used to grace our shores do come to grief, there was one in the Solent not that long ago, anyone remember the details?

[chevvron]

Re the Thames; downstream of Teddington Lock it's administered by the Port of London Authority (PLA) and you would need their permission to operate off it; upstream of Teddington Lock it's the Environment Agency, and you would need a river licence from them plus their permission to exceed the 8km/h speed limit.
Now I remember when Thorpe Park first started, they had a replica Supermarine S5 racer (Schneider Trophy type) and when it displayed at Farnborough, (late'70s) it operated from the long straight stretch of water used for the Henley Regatta!

[Windy Militant]

Another thing to bear in mind that many lakes in the UK form part of the drinking water system. Not just man made reservoirs, the Teifi pools spring to mind but there are many others. There are very strict by laws in place about operating craft from these especially with prevention of transferring unwanted biological material into them. I seem to recall any boats used on these waterways had to go through a serious decontamination process if moved from one to another and as you have to carry out the process every time you remove the craft from the lake it does make aircraft operations some what impossible.

[Pilot DAR]

The operation of small floatplanes or flying boats from salt water has two main downsides (authority and traffic aside).

The corrosion is a big issue. Yes, with vigilant washing it can be overcome, but this washing presupposes that you have a means to get the salt wet plane out of the water, and heavily flushed with fresh water right away. Taking off from the sea, flying to an airport and applying a garden hose stream a half hour later is not going to do it. Those who are successfully operating from salt water have a lot of infrastructure in plance to make it work.

Secondly, and more to the point is wave height. Sure the sea can be calm sometimes, but not often. For any seagoing aircraft of 4000 pounds or less, wave heights exceeding 12 inches total are the practical limt. You can do more with skill, but it just pounds the plane, and should be reserved for circumstances where you have no choice. Even if the sea conditions are decent, the wakes of vessels super impose. I have flown a Teal (very similar to a Lake amphib) off a virtually calm lake, to encounter three super imposed boat wakes which just about ended the career of the plane. No damage, but a testimonial to the fine low speed characteristics of the Teal, just as the Lake. I have had similar scares in other types, so I am very weary of rough water. I have flown a Cessna Caravan amphib on and off 12 inch waves, and it's much better, but still hard on the plane.

I was once the backseat observer to a spontanious landing in Lake Ontario, in waves I would estimate to be 2 feet or so. The touchdown was well flown, but the water so rough, the plane just slammed repeatedly, and he went 'round. When he finally landed in the calm water, and attempted to takeoff, the plane would not accelerate at all - it was sinking. We taxied up a (thankfully very close) ramp, to find that the floats were so badly bent and wrinkled that many of the rivets had been sheared aft of the step, and they had the seaworthiness of a seive. I excused myself from this unhappy scene, with an unforgettable lesson on what not to do.

In Canada, the many small lakes offer many areas in the lee, and bodies of water with small fetch, so you can find your spot, if you've been trained how. It is uncommon to see floatplanes on the larger lakes at all, unless they are in bays and other secluded areas.

The references to operations in Florida are generally operations from a number of smaller fresh water lakes there. There are some saltwater places where you can get in and out in a secluded bay (in the Keys), but certainly not along the main coastal shores.

As romantic as float flying is, it really is only practical (on the small plane scale) in smaller lakes, which are not too busy, or noise sensative.

The other thing to remember is that if you're landing a floatplane, you are very nearly never at an airport, or even airplane freindly place, and could be somewhere totally on your own. The slightest maintenance problem gets big fast. Can't get it started at the airport can be managed. Can't get started on a secluded lake 50, miles from a road, is going to be a major and costly inconvenience!

[Crash one]

There are several WADs on Scottish lochs but not enough to justify buying a seaplane unless you live next to one. Never flown one but it looks fun. Beaurocracy rules UK as usual!

[PH-UKU]

Plenty of stuff to do in Scotland - legally. (http://www.scotlandonfloats.com)

[gasax]

Technically the Crown 'owns' the sea - certainly between the high water mark and the 3 mile limit. Hence the Crown commisioners make a considerable sum from moorings, fish farms, outfalls - you name it.

More relevently they are a considerable number of bodies which have authority over the harbours, estuaries and oteher selected areas. They are the ones who generally have prohibited the operation of seaplanes within their areas of authority either by direct ruling or blanket maximum speed limits - as per the Lake District and Norfolk Broads.

If you want permission to operate they you use your 'considerable' research skills to get hold of the local byelaws covering the area you are looking at. If not specifically prohibited you then need to apply for permission. It will almost inevitably have to be in writing - because these are all quango council type bodies - and inevitably they will take some time - need to include it at the next committee meeting. There is a prob 90 that it will be declined on 'elfin safety grounds by people who have no knowledge or understanding of seaplane operations.

But if you get permission there is only the corrosion to worry about!!! (Oh and somewhere to moor, and get fuel, and not get damaged (or sink).

[irish seaplane]

Pilot DAR hit the nail on the head, and they are certainly the key issues. If you are a private user, with typical financial resources, then the cost of salt operation is likely to be prohibitive. Parts for seaplanes tend to be notoriously expensive... try an oleo for a LA-4 Lake @ $1950++ and you wont be so keen to rust them out in salt. A commercial operation will have a cash flow that may make the costs on maint/permissions/infrastructure viable. Perhaps the safest path to try salt water theories is one of these Polaris Motor (http://www.polarismotor.it/) whcih according to C206 Pilot extraordinarie who owns both says the Polairis can manage a 5ft swell..... :ooh:

If common sense prevails here is a few spots you can probably secure permission to use if past use is anything to go by:

53° 8.162'N 2° 5.167'W
51° 7.406'N 0° 28.456'W
50° 56.300'N 0° 51.733'E

There's probably more, but I don't operate in the UK so its not my bag. No real point in making inquiries if you don't have a real move on purchasing/operating a seaplane there, as it is quite easy to sound like a day dreamer. There is a guy operating a Kitfox off floats somewhere on the "mainland" big article on him in the LAA magazine. He might be best bet for accurate info on the job.

Irish

[QDMQDMQDM]

Are this outfit still flying? The website looks fairly active, but no scheduled flights, I see.

Loch Lomond Seaplanes (http://www.lochlomondseaplanes.com/)

[d88]

Still operating but as they use a single engine van and c206 I don't think they are allowed to run a scheduled service . More a case of turning up and waiting till they have enough passengers as well as tours and charters .

[aluminium persuader]

The one in the Solent was the Shorts Sandringham "Southern Cross", renamed "Sir Arthur Gouge" IIRC. Now owned by Kermit Weeks.

There was a Lake Buccaneer operating pleasure flights for a while from Chesil Beach, somewhere near Weymouth I think. That would've been mid-late 90s.

ap

[Bronx]

gasax

Adam, do some basic research, is google a mystery to you?
To land in inland waters you need the 'landowners' permission, no different to farm strips but more difficult to get.

Your google skills must a whole lot better than mine.

Can you post a link to the law that says in the UK you need a landowner's permission to land? :confused:

[gasax]

Try the Air Navigation Order - basic legal requirements for aircraft operation in the UK.

[moona]

That Polaris Motor looks like great fun!

[Bronx]

gasax

Try the Air Navigation Order - basic legal requirements for aircraft operation in the UK.

I tried that. Nothing found

Can you post a link to the law that supports your assertion that in the UK you need a landowner's permission to land?

Or just maybe you could be wrong? :eek:

Maybe it's a good thing folk like Adam ask questions on Pprune so we can all learn? ;)

[Flying Lawyer]

gasax Adam, do some basic research, is google a mystery to you?

To land in inland waters you need the 'landowners' permission, no different to farm strips but more difficult to get.and Try the Air Navigation Order - basic legal requirements for aircraft operation in the UK.

Posted by Julian Hensey in June 2007: http://www.pprune.org/private-flying/278723-another-legal-question-landing-open.html
You guys might like this.

MEANING OF ARTICLE 168(1) OF THE AIR NAVIGATION ORDER 2005

Article 168(1) of the Air Navigation Order 2005 provides that, subject to the obligations of the holder of a public use aerodrome licence to make the aerodrome available in accordance with the terms of his licence, nothing in the Order or any Regulations made under it confers any right to land in any place as against the owner of the land or other persons interested in the land.
This does not make it an offence for a pilot to land without the landowner's permission. What the article provides is that the Air Navigation Order does not confer any right to land as against the landowner.
So, whereas a pilot who lands without permission may be a trespasser and may be liable to compensate the landowner if he causes damage, he will not have committed a criminal offence under the Air Navigation Order.

Robin Allan
Deputy Secretary & Legal Adviser
Civil Aviation Authority
22 February 2007 (The equivalent Article in the 2009 ANO is Article 254(1). The provision remains unchanged.)


I don't know why you were so rude to AdamFrisch. Reading the answers to other people's questions adds to our store of aviation knowledge - we learn things even when we'd have no reason to research a topic ourselves.
Of course, there's always a risk an answer may be wrong. ;)


.

[rans6andrew]

The May 2010 issue of Light Aviation, the journal of the Light Aircraft Association, featured a chap with a Kitfox (2 seater homebuilt aircraft) converted for float operation. If memory serves he operates from a harbour in the south west UK. The Kitfox is a folding wing type, which can be trailered home for cheap hangarage, and the chap launches it from a harbour slipway using a quadbike to drag the trailer. He has been doing this for some time so presumably it is allowed.

Rans6

[Lister Noble]

Not much help,but I saw seaplanes operating in Norway a couple of years ago,flying from Fjords(spelling?)
It is obviously salt water,but inland so quite a lot calmer most of the time.
In the UK as already mentioned the The Crown have rights over tidal water up to 3 miles offshore,the only bit they don't have rights to is between the high and low water margin,so you could land at high water just off the beach.;)

[SLF-Flyer]

Some seven years ago or more, did have a plane come in for several touch and go then a full stop + take off.

Pilot was going to Africa and needed a pass for water landings prior to the trip.

Also did have one come in on a mayday. Was parked up near the sailing club for several weeks. Local people say that the landing was delayed, so that TV crew could film it landing. Was on the BBC South East news.

[gazPP]

I also used Google to research float planes in the UK and low and behold it brought me to this thread :ok:

[englishal]

In general you need the permission of the harbour authority which is responsible for that bit of water. Outside of their jurisdiction then I presume you can land but probably not do much else if they forbid you coming into port.

I tried to secure permission to operate a sea plane out of Portland Harbour in Dorset. It went back and forth a long time but at the end of the day I could not get permission. In fact back in the 90's they even passed a ruling banning "vessels capable of flight" - after some chap started operating a rib-type microlight from there (looked a lot of fun actually). Trying to get these rulings overturned is like banging your head on a wall.

I thought about Poole Harbour as there used to be seaplanes based there many years ago but by that time I had decided enough was enough and gave up on the idea. Shame really or else I'd be flying around in a nice beaver now !

[Sir George Cayley]

For inland water such as lakes, reservoirs and tarns there's a twist. As I understand it no-one can own water but like fishing, where Riparian Water Rights control usage, it's the banks that can thwart you.

In other words, if the landing and taking off can be said to be 'reasonable' access to the water should be permitted. The rub is finding a place to beach or moor.

David west at Loch Lomond Seaplanes has to be the UK's leading authority on the subject so maybe an e-mail to him might help.

I used to really want to do a rating until a Norwegian told me how long you last in cold water.:eek:

SGC

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Shame really or else I'd be flying around in a nice beaver now !

Please could you post the photographs in Jet Blast? :ok:

Seriously folks; is one brave enough to make a "precautionary landing" on the water feature of one's choice? You'd soon find out who owned it but assumes you'd found somewhere to take off from in the first place.

[BroomstickPilot]

Hi Guys,

This is based only on my own personal recollection of flying history, read when I was in my, (now distant,) youth and certainly not in possession of a flying licence.

Back in the days when Pan Am clippers spanned the world and Imperial Airways operated regular flying boat services across the Empire and the RAF operated flying boats for maritime patrol and air/sea rescue, and larger Royal Navy vessels carried a float biplane and a catapult, if I recall correctly we had numerous civilian licensed water aerodromes and RAF/RNAS air stations dotted all around the UK coast.

So far as I know, there are none of these left, although it might just be worthwhile writing to the CAA to see if there are any left, (no doubt now unused historic relics of a byegone age). You never know; there might be an odd surprise location somewhere.

However without these kinds of facility, it seems to me the resurgance of seaplane flying stands very little chance indeed of ever getting off the ground in the UK ever again.

In principle, it might be technically feasable to find one or two old, disused seaplane aerodromes that might still be suitable for refurbishment into working aerodromes, (and that do not have sailing marinas built on them,) but what the cost would be, God alone knows.

My understanding is that if you want to operate off salt water you need a flying boat as these are designed for the purpose. So for reasons already given, by persons with much more knowledge then me, even if a sea aerodrome was available, we could not just put 'boots' on our landplanes and learn to operate off salt water. The problem with all inland fresh water locations being in private ownership and subject to fishing rights has already been mentioned.

I must confess to being very pessimistic about the idea of restarting private seaplane flying.

BP.

[abgd]

What about Redhill?

[effortless]

I seem to remember someone used to land in or near docklands. He wanted to commute but I think he only did it a few times. A sequence was used in a BBC serial.

[AdamFrisch]

Well, it was only 1993 when Kermit Weeks splashed down and took off from the Thames by Tower Bridge in his Shorts Sunderland, so it's not that long ago. As far as I know, this is the last time any flying boats or float planes took off that close to London. Kermit bought the Sunderland from millionaire Edward Hulton and it later did a successful ferry flight to his facility in Florida, where it still is today. No easy feat logistically ferrying an old avgas flying boat with no gear.

http://www.adamfrisch.com/images/sunderland.jpg
Last remaining Sunderland before her ferry to Florida.

In the late 50's, Piaggio's demo, I-GULL, tried to drum up some sales for the amphib pusher P136 - also known as the Royal Gull in the USA - by touring the UK. None were sold, but it did sell well in the US and the Mediterranean. In fact, Onassis had two of them and one of his sons unfortunately crashed and killed himself in one. Lovely flying boats that I'm personally very fond of and know quite a lot about. Long nurtured a burning desire to own one, but they're hard to come by..

In these photos of I-GULL one can clearly see the Gull water taxiing in the Thames.

http://www.adamfrisch.com/images/p136thames.jpg
By the Tower of London.

http://www.adamfrisch.com/images/p136thames2.jpg
Taxiing past Tower Bridge.

For those who are intrigued by the P136 Royal Gull, please have a look at the video I took of this bird when I visited Gull-guru John Mohr in Minnesota last year - the only video I've managed to find on this rare airplane. John Mohr is a Delta captain with over 38.000hrs and does airshows on the side. He flies his P136 all over the place - it's been to Europe, Caribbean, Greenland, South America - it flies constantly. John is a great guy and in this clip you'll be able to see what a great performance this old amphib has. It'll get in and out of lakes the size of stamps and can handle really rough water.

Piaggio Royal Gull P.136 amphibian splashing down in insanely small lake. - YouTube

Shame they don't build these today. Be a sweet little utility plane.

[DPeterson3]

The underlying problem, as I understand it, is the small but significant difference in US and UK laws.

What is not specifically prohibited in the US, is allowed.
What is not specifically allowed in the UK, is prohibited.

So, I can barge around the US in my 1967 PA18 on Wipline floats and have lots of places to land and play. An owner of a lake can prohibit me, but in most cases they haven't considered the need, so no prohibition exists. Pretty much all Corps of Engineers lakes are allowed, as property owned by the public.

Last Fall I landed on a lake and a conservation officer came out and asked if the lake was permitted for airplane operations. I told him there was no such thing. Was he aware of it being prohibited? At this moment in time, I was a boat. He thought for a while, and asked how fast I would be going at take off, and I told him about 40MPH. He agreed that was within the speed limits for his waters. Then he told me there was a "launch fee", to which I pointed out the obvious that I hadn't "launched". After some head-shaking and joke sharing, he gave up and left us enjoying the sun on the beach.

I understand there is a fellow up in Scotland that gives lessons in a PA18, although he may have taken a break for a while. Otherwise, I can't see any investment in a floatplane making sense in the UK. Waste of money, and they can be costly to acquire and operate.

Cheers,

[suninmyeyes]

In the 1989 film "Dealers" with Paul McGann and Rebecca De Mornay someone took off in what looked like a Cessna 182 seaplane from the Thames near Tower Bridge. It looked real.

I remember thinking at the time there must have been a lot of redtape to wade through to arrange that. I presume it would be impossible these days. As there aren't many seaplanes around I wondered if it it was G-ESSL?

[AdamFrisch]

Scotland is different. There you can land in many Lochs.

I'm actually not convinced it's much different in England except for the obvious no landing spots like the Lake district etc. This thread has provided no definitive answer either. There's a speed limit on many parts of the Thames, but outside that I can't see any references to any specific prohibition banning seaplanes.

[irish seaplane]

The Dealers was filmed using G-BKMM (cr.) and that's a C180K which was on Amphibs and flown by Keith Sissons. The crew needed to clear the river with a boat first to ensure a clear path for the Thames scenes. The lake scene's where filmed on a shortish lake not far away. Great flying scenes and cool movie.

There are very few lakes in the UK compared to where I fly. They mostly look like reservoirs with the odd established sailing club. Only the odd one in Wales looked like I could drop in with the Lake Bucc.... I think you probably could explore more and more options getting permissions where necessary but the density of water there is not really worth the effort.

Irish

[stickandrudderman]

The quickest way to find out if it's legal to land on a stretch of water is to go and land there. If no-one says anything you're laughing, and if someone does say anything they'll probably tell you which law you've broken and from there you can reverse engineer the procedure for getting the permission.
(Although I conceed that it might prove expensive and you might not get to do it again.........:})
On the positive side, you would be well qualified to come back here and tell us the correct procedure!

Small print: I do so hate to conceed that in today's litigious world it is now necessary to add a disclaimer in that none of the above is meant to be taken as legal advice and anyone confused or misguided enough to construe it as such should seek urgent medical attention.
I also realise at this point that the smallest font size on here is not sufficiently small to make my small print look anything like real small print but if I continue adding text then the paragraph(s) may indeed begin to resemble something that might, to the casual observer, be akin to genuine small print rather than the inane ramblings of someone who's bored and tired and should really be tucked up in bed at this hour ready for another busy day at work tomorrow.

[Flyingmac]

As far as I know, these guys are still active. Photograph of Aircraft G-WATR (http://www.caa.co.uk/applicationmodules/ginfo/ginfo_photo.aspx?regmark=G-WATR&imgname=G-WATR003&imgtype=JPG)

[mrmum]

Yes, but Neil is based at Loch Earn, which is in Scotland, quite a fair way up as well as I recall. So, other than a quite pleasant photo, your point is?

[Wessex Boy]

I seem to recall one o fthe Norfolk Broads being used for a Floatplane test in one of the comics a few years ago?

I flew Chalks Mallard from Miami-Bimini-Nassau in 1980 (It was the Blue & White one used in the opening sequence of Miami Vice and then sadly crashed a few years ago)

In 1981 I flew Long-Beach to a bit of Pacific off the coast of Catalina Island in an Avalon Mallard where we were met by a rib to take us into the harbour, the swell was up so it was rather interesting transferring to the Rib and then back again for the return!

When my Numbers come up I will be importing an Antilles Goose or restored Mallard for flying between here and my Villa at Como...

[PH-UKU]

England difficult cos water is classed as private property and they have medieval trespass laws. Lake District National Park speed limited so impossible.

Scotland, much more free and easy. Best choice of landscape, water and FREEEEEEEDOM ! Checkout, www.scotlandonfloats.com (http://www.scotlandonfloats.com).

[seaworthy]

The EU FUSETRA (Future Seaplane Traffic) programme is interesting re law and seaplane bases and well worth googling, but I think the future could offer much more....

As far as I can tell, wings off or wings folded, a seaplane is a boat, not a seaplane. This would allow taxiing in harbours and estuaries, also enabling physical access to marinas and docks.

Composites are used for building high-spec yachts identically to light aircraft (diamond, Cirrus etc) which will deal with airframe corrosion when used by seaplanes.

New hull forms derived from racing multihull yachts have been developed for seaplanes, which will be i) lighter ii) less drag iii) far more seaworthy.

Used in amphibs (to enable airfield use for inland options), would these serve, even in England and Wales?

[Sir Niall Dementia]

Slight thread drift;

A couple of Sundays ago I was on a task in the helicopter which took me to the North Norfolk Coast just east of D207. Descending through 2000' I got a TCAS warning at 5 miles 2000' below. As position (not bearing remained constant) I just thought someone was doing some very low flying. About 1 minute later I realised the target was stationary, then I saw an aircraft in the water. I turned towards it thinking someone might have ditched and his transponder was still going, I went for a closer look, when suddenly his engine started and he took off, and re-landed, and then did it again.

I've got no idea what kind of aircraft it was, but on a sunny, calm Sunday I was very jealous. Lucky git.............

SND

[bartonflyer]

After getting my floatplane rating in Canada a few years back I did look into what would be involved in renewing said rating with the CAA. I eventually decided that flying mainly from Barton EGCB, there was little likelihood of landing on the Manchester Ship Canal so I gave up the idea.
But I did get as far as getting the recommended Royal Yacht Association books because to keep a floatplane rating in the UK it is necessary to know the light signals shown by a dredger operating at night!

[N707ZS]

Is that Lake still in the long grass at Elstree visited years ago and the grass was a few feet high around it.

On checking I see Adam asked about the poor thing some years back.

[irish seaplane]

What sort of seaplane was it out there near the D207 SND? Was it a flying boat with a pylon mounted engine, or a float type airplane?

Irish

[UV]

North Norfolk Coast just east of D207

So it was sitting in the Wash?
Was it this?
N8004B Lake LA-4 Buccaneer | Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/eigjb/7431891060/)

[AdamFrisch]

From what I heard the Lake is still sitting at Elstree rotting away. Really is sad as it used to be in good nick. Had the batwing modification as well, which makes the takeoff much shorter. There are a few Lakes flying in the UK, though.

[irish seaplane]

RE: N8004B photo - that's my fat head there with four up and bags heading on off on my stag do, over to Liverpool. 4 airplanes in loose formation, and I managed to beat the C182RG chock to chock on the trip from Weston. Landed number 2 behind him on 27 in Liverpool and made the first exit 200m from the 27 threshold, which pip'ed the 182 at the post. Not so bad for a 26 foot cabin cruiser.;)

[Sir Niall Dementia]

Irish Seaplane and UV;

It was definately pylon mounted, I didn't go below 1000' as he was having a nice play and I didn't think he had seen me or knew I was there so I just left him plenty of room. From 1000' and about quarter of a mile from above he was difficult to identify, I did wonder about Osprey or Lake, or possibly even the Teal that was knocking around 30 years ago (I last saw one of those in Cumbernauld looking very sad about ten years ago)

SND

[dwadda]

With the new amphibious LSA's such as the Icon A5 and the Akoya coming available soon (well at least the A5), it would be really good to get some clarity on whether it would be worthwhile getting one.

I've found a house that we might buy that is on a lake, but it doesn't own the bank nor the lake (it's actually a modest house). A risk that I'm willing to take is that landing/taking off won't cause offence, and it won't cause any damage to the lake. The bank itself is inaccessible to whomever owns it, so I was thinking of cheekily making a temporary slip of stones and gravel so that the plane can be garaged on the house's property.

I think one concession that needs to be volunteered (I feel) is to offer to pay reasonable landing fees to the appropriate land owners. Reasonable wouldn't be much, say £10 which is what you'd pay to land on a grass field. Perhaps if there was a UK seaplane association that would administer the (annual) collection and payment of landing fees (based on log books), and could approach right-holders on behalf of all members so there was a list of approved landing sites...

Ah, such a pipe dream..

[9 lives]

dwadda,

As I'm in Canada, I cannot comment on the permissions associated with aircraft waterway use in the UK. I will suggest, however, that lots of consideration be given to the operational suitability of the lake of opportunity. There are lots of factors which can become apparent, making a body of water not so suitable as one could hope. I can offer more thoughts, with more detail on the lake.

As for the neighbourhood, I had great success with the neighbours when I purchased the property I now have for my runway, back in 1988. I asked permission form everyone, while agreeing to never fly over their homes. Then I put my planes to use for the local fire department, flying searches, and fire spotting, and I always took the local farmers for a fly, if they needed to check their fence lines.

It's a matter of presenting the positives, before the negatives are seen to prevail.

[irish seaplane]

"I've found a house that we might buy that is on a lake, but it doesn't own the bank nor the lake (it's actually a modest house). A risk that I'm willing to take is that landing/taking off won't cause offence, and it won't cause any damage to the lake. The bank itself is inaccessible to whomever owns it, so I was thinking of cheekily making a temporary slip of stones and gravel so that the plane can be garaged on the house's property"

Before you get into a boundary dispute with your new neighbour, try the lake out first with a boat. See who comes out to stop you if any. It's much cheaper to try launch a boat and fail than try launch a plane and fail.

Irish

[ThamesAdmiral]

Dear All,
Here is the latest CAA word on operations of aircraft on water.
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP%20168%20Licensing%20of%20Aerodromes.pdf

Having read it a couple of times it does not exclude or prohibit operations but the 440 odd pages does need a lot of reading. As a previous post stated the UK guru on this subject is David West of Loch Lomond.

My contribution to this thread is based on a combination of inland canoeing, floatplane rating and hovercraft pilot experience. Every trip should be heavily planned and prepared whilst exercising the maximum amount of courtesy possible.

In my View

1) As long as you do not trespass on any banks of a waterway, river or lake that is privately owned it is legal to navigate that body of water.

In addition to normal flight planning many additional factors apply to water operations. This includes being able to identify public access points near the place of landing. I always undertake a fly past and check there are no persons vessels or debris in the water and that landing and take off runs are as straight as possible and into wind and there is a car park or road nearby.

As we all know you can never prepare enough and one of my stories is not highlighting the close proximity of a minefield. Even in a hovercraft at 50 knots a minefield is a minefield.

On a more cultural note I think it is a national shame that of the 23 odd water aerodromes in the UK there is only one left.

Regards

[condor17]

With tongue definitely in cheek ..... why not buy a lake with road access .. start a water flying club !
Hat , Coat , Door ..

rgds condor .

[Crash one]

Loch Voil, Loch Lubnaig, Loch Tay, Loch Earn. Are all still on the chart, within a few miles of each other, & Eskdale north west of Loch Ness, all in Scotland but still UK I believe?

['Chuffer' Dandridge]

Thames Admiral,

CAP168 applies only to licensed aerodromes and is not the definitive guide to seaplane ops or landings in the UK.. Since flying training no longer requires a licensed aerodrome, that's why there are no longer any licensed water aerodromes in the UK. I believe Loch Lomond Seaplanes operate their Public Transport flights using a CAA Exemption to land at unlicensed sites.

Different rules apply in Scotland. Land at a private lake in England or Wales without permission and you could be guilty of trespass.

Hamish Mitchell, David West or Neil Gregory are the Scottish experts on seaplaning...

[AtollAtoll]

Hi

I am thinking about buying one of these two planes.

Check them out here

Explore the A5 - ICON Aircraft (http://iconaircraft.com/)

and here

Lisa Airplanes - Créateur d'avions de plaisance (http://www.lisa-airplanes.com/)

I came across this forum from looking at Sea Planes in the UK. There aren't many as noted above.

Both these planes can take off and land in water 2 foot deep and with waves up to 30cm high.

I came looking for help in what i might be abel tdo with them. Happily both will land on land or water without modification and the lisa can also land on snow.

I expect a number of you have been to the OshKosh EAA Airventure. I went a couple of weekends ago to check out these two planes and what else is out there.

My plan is to use one to fly between an airfield near london and then land near my house in Topsham on the River Exe. A stretch of often flatwater that is one mile wide and five miles long.

Given the range of these planes - I also fancy exploring Along the costs of Devon and Cornwall... channel islands... Isle of Scilly.... France and Northern Spain using a combination of water and land landings. I also like that they can be put on a container and shipped easily so would likely take it to South Africa, the USA and South America for some exploring.

Interested in people's views on

1. The planes - they are made predominantly of Carbon so some of the maintenance issues mentioned above are perhaps less relevant.
2. Rules in the UK and in the rest of the world on Sea Planes - the USA seems pretty well covered.

and any other comments you think might be helpful.

[irish seaplane]

Hi,
I know it's your first post, I'm not sure how much or little time you have flying. You could buy either of the two aircraft you mentioned, and make it work no doubt. If I had that budget, I would call Paul Furnee the 18,000hr seaplane expert and have him fetch me a nice Lake Renegade and have him ferry it/box it and re assemble it. Then let him show you how to do it safely. Winds/WX/Loads much less of a factor to a Lake. I've owned and flown them and miss my old one alot. For half the money you could buy a LA4-200 EP which will do 80% as much.

Before I'd spend all that money I'd get a UK based seaplane owner or operator to do the trip with me a few times in their aircraft and see if it works in practice.

Enjoy,

[AtollAtoll]

Thank you - good advice

[MaxR]

Do you need anyone to carry your bags?

[AtollAtoll]

I'll get in contact if I do...

[irish seaplane]

Looking at that mission London to Topsham, I'd be landing in Exeter every time. It's closer than the nearest ramp (slipway) I can see on Google Earth. Having a proper ramp is key to that job, and the attached maintenance load with saltwater operations has to be factored in. Very few ramps are wide enough, secure enough and have the space to park an aeroplane. 99/100 owners won't leaving a flying boat on the water overnight. It's not the norm. Vast vast differences between seaplane built and boating built infrastructure that only become apparent when you own a seaplane and make a few mistakes. Look up N84219 on AAIB site, just a handy example of the traps that await.

[PH-UKU]

Avoid Exeter. Typical over-priced very important soul-less regional airport. :ugh:

Try Dunkeswell instead. Friendly, cheap, and cracking Sunday dinners. :ok:

[N-Jacko]

The underlying problem, as I understand it, is the small but significant difference in US and UK laws.

What is not specifically prohibited in the US, is allowed.
What is not specifically allowed in the UK, is prohibited.


In this and many other respects, US law is similar to that of England and Scotland, from which it has evolved. In some other European countries what is not allowed is theoretically prohibited - hence the "Gallic shrug".

(N.B. The above is notwithstanding the mission statement of the UK CAA: "Everything is prohibited unless we've worked out a way to charge you for it.")

England difficult cos water is classed as private property and they have medieval trespass laws. Lake District National Park speed limited so impossible.

Scotland, much more free and easy. Best choice of landscape, water and FREEEEEEEDOM !

Trespass: in practice, most large landowners are not as easily upset as one might think. Even lairds who have never seen a banknote are unlikely to refuse a bottle of vieilles vignes from Bergères-les-Vertus (part of every Maule driver's MEL).

LDNP: wording of byelaws varies from lake to lake, so worth checking the small print. Speed limits are actual ground/water speed (not TAS), which a prosecutor would need to establish with accuracy beyond reasonable doubt.

Scotland: plenty of water here, but the weather is always crap. Don't be taken in by this video which was obviously made on FSX:

57d24Adk-iw

[9 lives]

Irish Seaplane has provided excellent advice. I regularly use my amphibious flying boat to commute, but I do it when I can, not when I have to. Getting a floating plane usefully to shore, so you can exit, and continue your day, requires a lot of thought.

As said, leaving them floating is undesireable. Ramping out a tricycle flying boat has challenges - many Lake Amphibians have had nosewheel problems and repairs. If ramping is to be regular, consider a taildragger amphib flying boat, they are superior in going up and down ramps.

I cringe at the thought of a brand new composite hull - for me to scratch first. Whenever I fly brand new floats, I try to not beach, dock or ramp at all, if I can avoid. I traded keel paint with a rocky bottom this weekend. Fortunately my keel has seen battle before, so it was just a few more marks - not the first! (Or damaging).

The idyllic vision of flying boat freedom, promoted by some, should be confirmed before broad acceptance!

When I train Lake or floatplane pilots, a lot of the time is spent on how to dock and disembark safely and practically, there's more to it than you'll see at first glance. As said, have a willing amphibian owner explore the plan for you first.

I sent an ampib from England to Canada in a container this past March. It worked, but was a lot of cost and effort. I doubt that you want your pride and joy bouncing around in a container.

Make sure that the insurance you desire would be practically available to you....

[N-Jacko]

Adam,

I couldn't disagree more with the above (mostly foreign) gloom-mongers.

An airplane is not like a dog or spouse. It's just a machine, for Christmas, not for life. No pockets in a shroud so buy it, use and enjoy it for your business (100% WDA), and when it has served its purpose, buy another. Just like a lawnmower.

And when you bring it to Scotland, PLEASE give me a shout! :ok:

[riverrock83]

I've never been to your part of the world - have you been sailing in your area? Google maps suggests that the Exeter canal would be too narrow, and the River Exe is either tidal or covered with moored small pleasure craft. Also see Exmouth and River Exe (including Topsham and Exeter Canal) [Expanded View] - Channel, West: pilotage, charts, photos and marine business listings (http://www.visitmyharbour.com/harbours/channel-west/exmouth-river-exe/expanded.asp) which mentions a 10 kt speed limit.

However there may be a way round this- you wont know unless you ask locally. There may be a wide / shallow angled slipway somewhere. Find some contacts locally and ask!

From ICON Aircraft | FAQ: Water Operations (http://iconaviation.net/faq-water-operations.html)
Can the A5 be operated in salt water?

Yes. There are no set limits on saltwater operation; however, ICON does recommend that following any operation in salt water, the A5 exterior be given a good freshwater rinse. In addition, the A5 should not be allowed to sit in salt water for prolonged periods due to saltwater’s corrosive nature.
So you'd need to get it out of the water and wash it down after use.

I hope you can find a way to do this!

[LA4200]

Some seven years ago or more, did have a plane come in for several touch and go then a full stop + take off.

Pilot was going to Africa and needed a pass for water landings prior to the trip.

Also did have one come in on a mayday. Was parked up near the sailing club for several weeks. Local people say that the landing was delayed, so that TV crew could film it landing. Was on the BBC South East news.

I was the pilot of the may day...
there were several reasons for the delayed landing., none of which involved waiting for a tv crew!

[First_Principal]

I was the pilot of the may day...
there were several reasons for the delayed landing., none of which involved waiting for a tv crew!

We often get to read accident and occasional incident reports, but rarely hear directly about those 'wtf?' moments, the thoughts that crossed ones mind, and what actions one took, at the time.

To this end is there anything useful about these reasons you'd care to enlighten us on?

FP.

[Animal Mother]

Ther's a seaplane operator in NI - Lakeland Seaplane Tours - Enniskillen (http://www.lacartes.com/business/Lakeland-Seaplane-Tours/25638)

...and there's landing rights available in Kent - Seaplane landings on the Medway restricted - Yachting Monthly (http://www.yachtingmonthly.com/news/seaplane-landings-on-the-medway-restricted-34886)

It appears that someone operates a seaplane on Lough Neagh (the largest body of fresh water in the UK) - https://500px.com/photo/40727970/seaplane-lough-neagh-by-tam-mullen - sadly there's no more info than that.

[TomJBooth]

Hi

I came across this forum from looking at Sea Planes in the UK. There aren't many as noted above.

Both these planes can take off and land in water 2 foot deep and with waves up to 30cm high.

I came looking for help in what i might be abel tdo with them. Happily both will land on land or water without modification and the lisa can also land on snow.

I expect a number of you have been to the OshKosh EAA Airventure. I went a couple of weekends ago to check out these two planes and what else is out there.

My plan is to use one to fly between an airfield near london and then land near my house in Topsham on the River Exe. A stretch of often flatwater that is one mile wide and five miles long.

Given the range of these planes - I also fancy exploring Along the costs of Devon and Cornwall... channel islands... Isle of Scilly.... France and Northern Spain using a combination of water and land landings. I also like that they can be put on a container and shipped easily so would likely take it to South Africa, the USA and South America for some exploring.

Interested in people's views on

1. The planes - they are made predominantly of Carbon so some of the maintenance issues mentioned above are perhaps less relevant.
2. Rules in the UK and in the rest of the world on Sea Planes - the USA seems pretty well covered.

and any other comments you think might be helpful.

So did you do it Atoll? I'd love to hear from you if you did. As a holder of a float plane rating I'm busting with thoughts but if you went ahead and did what you said - I'd genuinely love to hear about it.