Advantages of having a PPL?

[Hannah222]

I'm nearly 15 and am trying to persuade my parents into letting me have flying lessons- a trial lesson at least- and mum asked "Why would a 14 year old want to fly?" i thought it was a stupid question as everyone is saying it's fun but I need better reasons to get her to let me have lessons. Is there anything that they will get out of me having a license? I know when i'm old enough I can take people flying but is it more expensive to hire a small plane than go on holiday on a 'normal' plane? also, can I fly anywhere over Europe or do I need to get a better lisence? I'd be grateful if anyone can help! x

[BackPacker]

Hannah, yes you can take others flying all over Europe. All over the world in fact, as long as fly in a combination of PPL plus aircraft which is valid. But no, it will generally not be cheaper than taking a commercial aircraft, or a car, or any other form of transport. A PPL is to a very large extent a "fun" license, and only very few of us are able to get some serious practical use out of it - and this generally requires your own plane. (I'm sure IO540 will be along shortly...)

So to be honest, I cannot offer you any argument why your parents *should* pay your flying lessons. In fact, I don't think parents should pay for flying lessons at all, unless, arguably, you're aspiring to be a commercial pilot. But if you just want to fly for fun, get a job and pay for them yourself. That's how most of us did it. (But to be honest, most of the PPLs here started in their 30s or so.)

[Pilotinmydreams]

Totally agree with the above, there is no practical advantage like there is having a driving licence which allows you to drive every day. Flying for most PPLs is just for the fun of it. That said, if you/your parents can afford to pay for it, it's a priviledge that few get and worth the effort.

One thing I would say though - obtaining your PPL is certainly not as easy as a driving licence for example, expect much hard studying and head banging. :)

[PilotPieces]

A great experience to learn to fly. Also, looks good on your C.V. :ok:

[Simon150]

Why not turn the tables and buy them a flying lesson or trial flight?

It will demonstrate a level of commitment on your part in (presumably) saving up for the what for a 14 year old is probably not an inconsiderable amount of money, and in all likelyhood will show them why flying is sooooo much fun!

The risk of course is they they get hooked themself :-(

[Hannah222]

K then that doesn't really help :( but I am saving money to pay for lessons and as I only have a papereound it'll take a long time to pay for just 1. I'm thinking of applying for a scholarship but mum and dad don't seem to eant me to do that either- they think it would be pointless. And yes I think I do want to be a commercial pilot- it sounds really good but I won't know for sure whether I really want to fly until I have a trial lesson first I guess. X

[bingofuel]

Why not join the Air Cadets, and show your parents a commitment to an interest in flying. You may also get the chance to do some gliding or air experience flying.
You are 14, time is on your side.

Air Cadets - Find a squadron (http://www.raf.mod.uk/aircadets/findasquadron/)

[martinprice]

Getting your licence requires a solid commitment on your part in terms of both money (as you alread know) and time - there's a lot to learn. The advantage of having a PPL, especially at a young age, is that it demonstrates you're able to put in that kind of commitment. A lot of people give up part way through their flight training but if you can set yourself, and meet, a goal of getting your PPL then I'd say that's a great thing, regardless of whether you go on to fly for a living.

The key thing you need to do, in my opinion, is demonstrate your commitment by keeping at it, even if it takes you a long time to save up the money or obtain a scholarship. If you're near an airfield try seeing if the local flying club or school wants some help (cleaning planes or whatever). The pay will be somewhere between dreadful and zero but you'll be around aircraft and pilots, you'll get noticed and the chances are that as people get to know you you'll score the occasional free ride as a reward for your work. Air Cadets is another good suggestion.

If you really want it you'll find a way to get it. It just won't necessarily be easy or quick.

[IO540]

Learning to fly is a great achievement, and you can use it to really easily go to places where you would never bother to go otherwise because it would be so much hassle (like, northern France). Seeing Europe from the air is also great; particularly the mountains.

I have a 14 year old son who is mad keen on flying.

You can start loggins lessons at 14 but they will be partly wasted unless you are committed and not messing around like my son would do if he started now :)

[iwrbf]

Hi,

your parents won't seen any benefits. If they inform themselves, they'll realize, that it's a very very costly and - from some points of view - sometimes even a dangerous enterprise. Even more for a 15yr old.

BUT

...it will keep this non-spoiled kid...

- away from alcohol. Why? If you're going for a PPL, you would never jeopardize it for alcohol, would you?

- away from drugs. Why? Same argument, even worse: you would never even try drugs - which are easily detected on a medical in your hair, your blood, your...

- away from speeding in cars or motorcycles. You don't want to lose your health nor your licence for SPEEDING, do you?

- away from bad influences. Why? Like da Vinci said, once you've flown, you'll think differently. This may sound esoterical, new-age or whatever, but it's a fact: once been in a real 3-dimensional environment, everything on the ground is second-best...

- on its track to a good and well-earned education. Why? There are two tracks for you, once you realize how costly that dream of you is: Either you decide to get a _good_ job (with a good education before, mostly that is) or you go the aviation track - aiming for an ATP and/or a degree in aviation.

Don't try arguments like "this is fun", or "it may be cheaper after investing xx.xxxx,- bugs into this idea of my juvenile brain" or something. First of all, your parents want you to grow up - to get a good life. To LIVE SAFELY.

Tell them what you're willing to do for that what you aim for. Tell them that it IS costly, but it will help you to survive the next ten years or so - without alcoholics, drugs, driving car like Mario Andretti (try wikipedia for this name ;-) )

You get it? I hope sincerely, your parents do the math with the inherent risk of aviation against the benefits and "achievements" your altered state of mind (juvenile despair?) ... they'll at least give it a try.

Kind regards,
Peter

[Hannah222]

ummm iwrbf- were you being sarcastic about me being 'non spoiled' ? cus I'm definetly not spoiled. And I'm also real sensible so drugs and drinking and speeding wouldn't really be a good argument for my parents- they know i won't do that anyway.
Yes I do plan to go to sixth form and get a better job but thats not for 2 years yet.
I went to first aid cadets and did a leadership course there- is that important?
I live about 30 mins from an airfield but I won't be able to go often as I do lots of things after school and mum and dad both work full time so I don't think I could get there but if I could would just hanging around be useful for me? Wouldn't I just annoy people?! I'm a quick learner so i could teach myself if all of the information for the theory stuff is on the internet or in books as it seems expensive for the theory lessons as well. I do really want to do it I don't think I'd quit either it seems to much fun! x

[chris-h]

Advantage, scaring the s**t out of your friends and family..
Its a hobbie for most people and an expensive 1. Aviation is a big pot that you keep putting money into so for my kids, id be seeking a cheaper hobbie unless i get 6 & the bonus ball :-)

[BOZR_DOUGIE]

I think people are missing the point here lol

Initially PPL is basically a rather expensive hobby lol. I have thrown about 7000 at my PPL so far, and I am almost complete. But dont let that deter you I think it has been worth every penny. I would definatly go for a trial lesson anyways and see how it goes :-) I did a trial lesson when I was 11 and have never really looked back since then :-) . As for the "getting something out of the licence" well there isnt really that much you can gain from a PPL, itll look amaizing on your CV (especially for a 17 year old the minimum for a licence) but it will still be expensive to hire an aircraft for trips etc. The cheapest you could get would be a PA28 for about £95 per hour, and then split the cost between 4 of you (about 23 pounds) , an hour of flying may get you somewhere worthwile and probably slightly cheaper than the train, but a hell of a lot more exciting :-)

Ewan :-)

[Hannah222]

Ok thanks. Me n mum talked abut and she decides it's now too dangerous with crashing and oil leaks etc. So I said way more cars crash than airplanes. Was I right? Are airplanes just as safe as cars? Also she still thinks nearly 15 is too young but you said you flew at 11. Did you get to try the se stuff then as now? Or because your older do you get to do more? X

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Are airplanes just as safe as cars?
In fact you can play with the statistics any way you like, depending on what answer you want to get out - statistics are like that.

My usual answer is to pick on the analysis that says that flying little aeroplanes is about as dangerous as riding motorbikes (which is rather more dangerous than driving cars).

However I then point out that most pilots who die do so as a result of their own actions, whereas most motorcyclists who die do so because of some other loony on the road. There is therefore an opportunity to tilt the odds in your favour - sure, the "average" pilot is at as much risk as the motorcyclist, but I'm a better bet than the "average" pilot, because I read all the accident reports and I choose not to kill myself in the most common ways (having unrealistic views of what I can and can't cope with, taking off in weather I can't cope with, taking off without enough fuel for the trip, failing to turn around when things get "interesting", doing aeros over my girlfriend's house, and so on).

Trouble is ... pretty well everyone says that, and I know enough statistics to know that we can't all really be better than average.

[iwrbf]

Hannah222,

sarcasm is counter-productive, not my style.

I don't care about your interest in drugs, speeding, alcohol NOW - I just gave you some good arguments for your mom. Make clear, that your FUTURE will stay clean of this stuff IF... see?

Read it again, think about _arguments_, not about me making fun about you or trying to be sarcastic...

Kind regards,
Peter

[BOZR_DOUGIE]

I am not sure if it is more dangerous than driving a car. Sure there is far more that can go wrong with an aircraft, but aircraft have FAR stricter safety requirements, an aircraft is inspected every day before it flies, and at least every 50 hours, compare that to a service/MOT. I guess it depends on viewpoints or statistics...


I flew when I was 11 but they would only let me fly in a 4 seater with my dad in the back for insurance reasons as I was so young back then. I coudnt log any hours till I was 14, and I needed to save up the money to pay for the lessons, hence why I have only done it when I am at uni (also due to the poor choice of flying clubs in Cumbria.)



I was a member of the Air Cadets as well so I did some flying with them , including a gliding scholorship (highly recommended if you have the chance.)

Ewan :-)

[robin]

There are two sides to this debate

1) The tangible benefits

The ability to travel quickly to interesting places
A potential career in civil or military aviation

2) The Intangible benefits

Will give you confidence in yourself
A means of education
Joining a network of like-minded air-minded individuals

We all think that once we've got our licences we can do amazing trips, but the reality is that we don't. It costs too much and the commercial airlines are so much cheaper and more reliable.

My parents were really supportive to me in my years of aviation, funding me through some really difficult periods, because they knew how much it meant to me. Yes they were worried about the perceived dangers but their attitude was that they didn't want their children wrapped in cotton wool

Life is for living and our time is short, and for me aviation has been my life. Without it I'd have been a shadow of what I am (and probably still married)

[Ultranomad]

Hannah, even if you don't become a professional pilot, learning to fly will teach you important skills for success in your future life:
- you learn not only to plan strategically and proactively, but also to optimise your plans in real time, making small adaptations as you go;
- you learn to process several streams of information in parallel and verify them against each other.
These skills are especially valuable if you ever decide to run your own business.

[sleemanj]

Given your age, your eagerness is forgivable ;-) Perhaps what you don't really have a handle on is really how expensive it is this hobby. And it is that, both expensive and a hobby. Your parents may simply not be able to afford it. It really is very expensive.

Show a real interest, drag your family to airshows, go plane watching at your local airport, get books from your library and learn the theory backwards frontwards and sideways, get flight sim or similar ( Google FlightGear for a very good and totally free sim) and fly the pants out of it because it's better than nothing (and don't just jump into the 747, do it properly, use a light single aircraft, follow checklists, put your mind in the cockpit and LEARN don't play), and if you at all can, find your nearest airfield where light aircraft fly from (microlights, sport aircraft, whatever) get on your bike or drag a parent and go there at every opportunity, talk to the people, look at the aircraft, help out about the place, get your hands dirty.

[Hannah222]

That's the reason I started this post because I know how much it costs and that we really don't have that much money. I want to try for a scholarship (I know it's unlikely I'll get one but still) and I want to persuade mum to let me do that. I know lots of you are saying it's a hobby but if I want to be a pilot it is something I shoulddo and if I start now I'm not going to need lessons that often as I can't get my liscense for 2 years yet. I was planning to go to the library as it's half term- does anyone have any suggestions for books tahr would be useful for a beginner? X

[BackPacker]

Hannah, even if you don't become a professional pilot, learning to fly will teach you important skills for success in your future life:
- you learn not only to plan strategically and proactively, but also to optimise your plans in real time, making small adaptations as you go;
- you learn to process several streams of information in parallel and verify them against each other.
These skills are especially valuable if you ever decide to run your own business.

That's true, but that's not really an argument to spend a fortune on flying lessons. You can get the same experience, but for free, if you become a Boy Scout/Girl Guides leader for instance. At least for me, the skills I gained in 15+ years of leadership there have been far more valuable to me than the skills I gained in flying. Those are generally very, very specialized. Learning to work with people is far more valuable in todays society than learning to work with complex machinery.

If you really want to fly, and need to do it cheaply, gliding is probably the way to go. And I also know a boy who got involved in the real flying world by flying simulators on-line, acting as ATC. He regularly visits our club, particularly if we have events, brings his simulator, demonstrates things, and generally gets a free ride out of that.

[Whopity]

Hannah,

I don't think you need to justify any benefits of having a PPL its simply that you want to do it. its like sailing boats or climbing mountains. If your parents are not aviation minded they will probably see it as a danger and make excuses not to let you. If they won't let you fly, they probably wouldn't let you ride horses either.

You need to gain exposure to aeroplanes, the ATC is an excellent way and will provide opportunities. Apply for as many scholarships as you can find, GAPAN, the Air League and the Royal Aero Club. Somebody has to win them!

Go to your nearest airfield probably Sleap and see if you can get a Saturday job doing anything associated with aeroplanes. When you get your opportunity at school to do Work Experience see if you can get it at the local aerodrome.

[IO540]

The way to get a PPL most cost effectively (apart from doing a JAA PPL in California in about 6 weeks; let's not start that one again :ouch: :ouch: ;) ) is to find a pilot friend/mentor who lets you fly with him/her and who shows you the ropes, including all the ground stuff like flight planning. Then, you will know everything practical before even starting the course, will finish in the minimum time (45hrs), and it will be easier all round because you won't spend the first 20 hours coping with a brain overload.

You won't be able to log any of that time but that doesn't matter.

[MartinCh]

Hi there.

The first page of this thread contains all the important links. You can get plenty free or very cheap flying given your age. Air League, later on UAS etc.

If you're not one of the (nothing but jet won't do and piston is necessary evil to get there) wannabes, sure, this may not be that great.

Gliding clubs offer very cheap, even cheaper flying for teenagers. Some do 'dirty work' help hours against launches or flight time (if that's not free already for so young). Ideally, for initial training, winch launches are cheaper, practicing circuits.
UK cons - if you fly a lot, you can't solo before your 16th birthday on glider.
Did I mention, after suitable training, you can help out driving golf cart or some old car helping to retrieve gliders to the launch point :-D Even before having DL.
Not exactly racing, though.

Gliding will teach you to appreciate many things about flying you may take for granted with the spinning thing in front of you. Also, these scholarships available for teenagers, are for motorgliders as well. Well known Grob Tutor G109, Falke, T61 etc. You can get free hours, while learning the stuff, having engine experience etc.

While there are not as many 'exemptions' for full JAA PPL for gliding and motorgliders, going the NPPL route, you can find yourself with day only VFR simple single/motorglider/microlight licence that lets you enjoy flying.

As mentioned, GAPAN offers full PPL scholarships as well, although you're too young for it now. If you have some air experience, you'd show commitment and serious interest for the application, not just a passing interest.

Gliding and motorgliders will definitely help you with many aspects of flying power later on (or, SEP as some prefer). Had I been your age in the UK now or earlier, I'd make the most of it. DO NOT think that you're not likely to succeed in the more lucrative scholarship applications. Too many think the same. You can't win if you don't join.

AFAIK, you can't log SEP time towards PPL right now, due to your age. Gliding is fine, although the solo age restriction. Many youngsters solo on their 16th birthday, weather permitting. Nice Bday to remember.

If you don't hurry, but stick to your plans/dreams, it's easily achievable, it just takes time. Something people your age aren't best at. Waiting.

Had I known how much fun and more 'flexible' regular gliding is, and getting a misconception shattered years ago, I wouldn't have bothered saving money as teenager for paragliding kit. It just wasn't used enough without me having car/transport. I thought gliding is more expensive, more elitist, one has to own glider etc. How wrong.

Have fun. Amazon is good for cheap second hand books, as you're likely to know.

[Hannah222]

Well I think I'm getting there!! Dad has basically said yes to a trial lesson- well he said it's up to your mum and she's more likely to say yes... Eventually. Lol I'm going to go tobthe library and get some books tomorrow (any suggestions) and show her I'm serious about wanting to learn and if I ever get to the club I might have a headstart right? I've been looking at gliding and the places are no nearer so that doesn't help and mum said they're nothing like flying as there is no engine so she doesn't see how it could help even though I explained in shows an interest in aviation (and my sister goes huh?) haha. Martin, are you serious about being able to drive?? Theta so cool- I wanted to do it at pgl over summer but they said it wad too dangerous!
Also I'm a shy sorta person so how would Igo about asking about working at an airfield? Won't people think it's rude? Thanks to everyone who's already answered lots of my questions. :) xx

[bingofuel]

Why don't you sit your parents in front of your computer and let them read this thread?

[BEagle]

Hannah,

Have a look at this website: 1119 ONLINE | Main Page (http://www.1119atc.org.uk/)

Good luck, whatever you decide!

[tggzzz]

My only daughter had her first glider flight when she was 14, started to learn when she was 15, and went solo when she was 16. And there's nothing remarkable about that - at the same club another 16yo went solo that same year, we have several younger people flying regularly and I believe there's a 9yo (11yo?) that pays for the occasional lesson out of her pocket money.

So, from a father's perspective, what do I think it has done for her?
when she started she thought shopping malls were interesting and exciting places - now she knows there's far more to life, provided that she works at it. (Judging by some of her classmates, I'm very glad she came to that conclusion before making awkward personal mistakes)
it saves money on trips to Alton Towers etc - they've become boring now she builds her own rollercoasters in the sky :)
motorbikes have little attraction (which relieves me somewhat) after the adrenaline of a winch launch
she's learned a good approach to the dangers she will undoubtedly encounter in life: listen, recognise and understand the dangers, then apply the relevant procedures to minimse the dangers
because she helps out at the club, she can add many demonstrable skills onto her CV, e.g. keeping legal documents (the logbook), supervising visitors, organising the grid including persuading other people to "do the right thing", demonstrating the continued application and achievement and general maturity required to be allowed to go solo. Plus it is a very good talking point during interviews!
from a purely selfish viewpoint, it has extended the time that she wants to do things with me (as opposed to going off with her friends)In short, even if she doesn't continue flying, gliding has already helped her significantly in both her professional and personal life. When she started I was merely looking to have a good time with her; gliding has far exceeded our expectations.

Costs are minimal for youngsters at my club: ~£40/year membership and ~£6/flight. Typically you'll have 3 flights/day while training so a day out costs <£20 - or alternatively a single hour-long flight costs ~£21. (A trial lesson costs £35/45). And as others have mentioned, there are bursaries available for pre-solo pilots, e.g.
Scholarships and Other Opportunities (http://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/juniors/scholarships.htm)
Junior Gliding (http://www.juniorgliding.co.uk/affordableflying/)How much use is learning to glide as opposed to getting a PPL? I don't know, but it certainly won't do any harm and it definitely helped an 18yo at our club get through the selection processes to join the Fleet Air Arm to train as a pilot.

Also I'm a shy sorta person so how would I go about asking about working at an airfield? Won't people think it's rude? After you've been part of the club for a while you won't be self-consciously shy because you'll be part of the team and will have some significant achievements under your belt. You'll be able to say "I'm interested in doing X, and I can demonstrate that by having done Y and Z, so you can see my interest and dedication". If somebody acts as if that is rude then you probably don't want to work for them anyway!

Me n mum talked abut and she decides it's now too dangerous with crashing and oil leaks etc. So I said way more cars crash than airplanes. Was I right? Are airplanes just as safe as cars?Very difficult to quantify and, IMHO, probably a question that should be "unasked". Fundamentally there's risks in doing everything - what's important is to accurately assess what you're capable of in the current conditions. Personally I'm much happier about my daughter doing gliding that I would be about her horse riding.

"Oil leaks etc"? Well there's much less to go wrong in a glider, and before you go solo (and afterwards) you'll have to repeatedly demonstrate that you can safely deal with "eventualities" including winch failure or cable breaks (equivalent to engine failure), and "departure from controlled flight" i.e. stalls and spins. If you can't demonstrate you're safe, you won't go solo - very simple and very reassuring.

The best way to understand this how things work is to go to a gliding club, spend several hours at the launchpoint just watching and chatting to the members and the instructors. And then have a trial lesson, preferably a winch launch because it is much cheaper and more fun.

Alternatively, I'm quite happy to discuss "a father's perspective".

[Hannah222]

Everyones given loads of useful information and so I've finally convinced them to give me a lesson for my birthday but.. I feel bad because I've been going on about it loads and they were like "whatever if you really want to you can bug you're not getting anything else" so I go "fine I don't want anything else" which is true but I still feel bad. :( also lots of people have mfntioned gliding so I've been googling it and it seems just as fun, easier to do and cheaper but I still really want to fly a 'proper' plane. Last time I mentioned gliding though mum said it's got nothing to do with flying so I don't think I can just change my mind now. My nearest club, sleap, offers both flying and gliding (I think) so would I be able to try both and choose then? Has anyone tried both and got a favourite? And can you gel a lisence for gliding like you can for flying? I got a book on gliding but it wasn't to good as I didn't understand a lot as i've never seen inside a glider and other things I already knew from the Internet. X

[gg190]

I've done/still do both gliding and powered flying. I really enjoy the both of them for different reasons. I get more of an adrenalin rush out of gliding, but powered flying is where my heart truly lies.

I started gliding as an initial way into flying, I was about your age and could not afford flying lessons in powered aircraft. I got a scholarship to start gliding (offered by the Royal Aeronautical Society, not sure if they are still doing them or not, might be worth a look though). I soloed in the glider and 16, and what I learned helped massively when I did start my PPL, I sailed through the first few lessons on basic aircraft control, because there are a lot of similarities.

Gliding is a great way to start off in a flying hobby (or even career if you want to head down that road), it's way cheaper than powered flying and there are a lot of skills you learn that you can take across.

Feel free to PM me if you want to anything specific about gliding, or my own personal experiences.

[tggzzz]

also lots of people have mfntioned gliding so I've been googling it and it seems just as fun, easier to do and cheaper but I still really want to fly a 'proper' plane.
IMHO being in a light aircraft is about as interesting as being in a car :)

Better not show your mother this video of a standard pre-solo exercise YouTube - Segelflug, Trudeln mit Fox (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKWuS_jLFHE)


Last time I mentioned gliding though mum said it's got nothing to do with flying so I don't think I can just change my mind now. Many people confuse gliding with hang-gliding or para-gliding.

If you have new information then it is, IMHO, entirely reasonable to re-evaluate opinions and decisions.

My nearest club, sleap, offers both flying and gliding (I think) so would I be able to try both and choose then?
You would be interested in pre-solo or "ab-initio" training. The website states "That’s why we don’t undertake ab-initio training" on About the Group (http://www.welsh-wave.co.uk/About.aspx)

See British Gliding Association - UK Map (http://www.gliding.co.uk/findaclub/ukmap.htm) for your nearest clubs. Midland Gliding Club on the Long Mynd (http://www.longmynd.com/) seems to be a similar distance from Shrewsbury.


Has anyone tried both and got a favourite? Yes, but it is your decision that is important.

[Humaround]

Definitely try gliding. It's not only one of the cheapest ways to get into the air, it's really good fun, and it will teach you a great deal about flying which will very likely make you a better pilot if you later want to fly power.

If you enjoy it and stick with it you could be flying solo in a couple of years, and for pocket money costs (well, maybe Saturday job costs...)

Your mum is definitely wrong to say it's nothing to do with flying!

Remember the airliner which made a forced landing in the Hudson River? The pilot is a glider pilot (he obtained a glider pilot's licence at the age of 14!) and it's my guess that without his experience in gliders the outcome might have been a whole lot worse.

By the way, in this country, there is no gliding licence. You will be allowed to fly solo when your instructor thinks you are ready (not before you're 16 though).

[Gyronut]

Lots of options and lots of advice.
Whatever you choose to do I'm sure we'd all wish you good luck in your new venture.
Having done gliding many years ago you'll find the real fun comes when you are able to master soaring and spend more than a few minutes in the air on a circuit, unless you pay for an aerotow. The only down side was that I have spent many days on the airfield helping to launch and recover aircraft without getting a flight due to the weather changing or some priority booking which wasn't in the book, however the fact that I was willing to help out all the time meant I did get some bonus flights. Just remember though that with a glider you only get one shot at landing (unless it has a motor) :)
I'm not gliding anymore as I've moved onto other things but I think the experience made me a better pilot with regards to 'stick and rudder' flying.
Enjoy your flight when you get it :eek: