How Should I Know That my Student is Ready for His First Solo???

[Zyg]

Hello Everybody.
I am an F-16 pilot of the Hellenic Air Force and for the
last year i have been attending the excellent course for MSc in Human Factors and Safety Assessment in Aeronautics at Cranfield University.I found this site by accident while i was Googling and i own to say that i was impressed by the variety, quality and professionalism of the opinions that are posted here. I started visiting that quite often and now i decided to make my first post since i need the opinions of experienced flying instructors and examiners.
Now i am in the process of doing my thesis and
i decided to make a research to explore the not so well known field of decision making process of the flying instructors in order to allow or not student pilots to make their first solo flight.
I am an experienced flying instructor myself also but since i come from the Air Force, what i know is, i would dare to say, completely different in terms of procedures, rules and standards in accordance with General Aviation.
Besides, my project is specifically for G A and so i am going to gather information from G A pilots in order to build a picture of what aspects of student's performance cause instructors to allow them or prevent them from going their first solo.
I have to say that i have already scheduled interviews with flight instructors in my area (Cranfield) but since i have limited time and budget i decided to open that thread here also and use the experience and knowledge of all of you out there.
Thanks in advance every single person that will contribute to that discussion....

[mad_jock]

Zyg I really don't think there is a set performance level.

When you send your first one solo they are proberly over trained and could have gone solo sooner.

After you get a bit of experence under your belt it is mostly gut feel.

The standard which we always put in the student records is

"3 satis circuits, ready for solo, ex 14 performed reported satis"

You know deep down when someone isn't ready, you also know deep down when someone is ready. The problem occurs with the ones in the minddle that you know that sending them solo will boost thier confidence and get them over a step but they just arn't progressing. In these cases its the right wx, the right time, the right controller in the tower, the right runway in use, even the right airframe that you are using that day. You take a calculated risk and send them on there merry way.

Intially you agonise over sending them. with experence it doesn't take 2 seconds to decide. If it takes more than that you shouldn't be sending them.

[flugholm]

Zyg + mad_jock: Interesting thoughts! Thank you for bringing them up!
I come from the glider/motorglider/SEP side of the spectrum. But I think it all amounts to the same: Quantifying a gut feeling. Which is per se difficult if not impossible, to say the least.
Take a look at when it goes wrong, for instance.
I had a student pilot prang a glider on his fifteenth solo (IIRC), third landing on this day. :mad: up landing, some damage to the nose wheel incl fuselage structure. No bodily harm to him, repairable damage to the ASK21. ("The biggest damage was to the ego of the pilot.", as they say.)
Was he ready to solo? Yes, three days before that day, when had had his first solo, and on that day too.
Would I solo him in the same situation again? Yes.
Did he :mad: up? Yes.
Did I :mad: up? Answers on a postcard...

[DFC]

While you may feel that your military background means you have been following different procedures and standards to civil flying I would not make the same assumptions.

Civil training or should I say - Good Quality civil training will have very well defined standards for every stage of the PPL course (as well as all others). If you can not obtain a copy of a good training manual from such an organisation then I recomend that you research the AOPA publications that provide generic aspects of the course and a basis for a good document.

The first solo is the first time the student becomes the pilot in command and has sole responsibility for the safe execution of the flight as briefed. Once they taxi out, they are pilot in command and have sole responsibility for the safety of themsleves and their aircraft and anything they do is 100% their responsibility.

Training towards this starts on day 1 exercise 1 and is a gradual laid down and recorded process. The student records will contain reports of progress and if necessary lack of progress and certify that key standards have been acheived for each lesson leading up to first solo.

Therefore the decision to send the student solo is not one that is made as a snap decision or based on as some people say 3 good circuits. Such decisions are risky and can often be based on a temporary good period of operation that may not continue into the solo phase. They are also difficult to supervise and document adequately not to mention causing problems when restricted FI's provide the training prior to first solo.

Having demonstrated the required standard on all the relevant exercises from the sylabus, the instructor will determine that the student has reached the required standard for solo. This is the time at which the student can progress to exercise 14 - the first element of which is a dual check prior to the first solo. However, before they do, most organisations will have some form of certificate or checklist that both the student and the instructor signs to show that they both agree everything required to be done has been done.

Therefore, the standard required is in simple terms is to have satisfied the instructor(s) that if authorised in suitable conditions the student is capable of safely acting as pilot in command of the aircraft including being capable of coping with any unexpected emergency (eg engine failure) that may occur while they are pilot in command.

So we end up sitting next to a student that is recomended for first solo. perhaps this was done by yourself or perhaps it was another FI - perhaps a restricted FI. However, provided that everything has been completed correctly this student should be capable of repeating the previously demonstrated standard which put them in this situation.

You have read the record, you know the conditions are suitable so you complete the pre-solo check. Now this may be 3 or 4 circuits because at this stage you are simply confirming that the previous standard is being consistently maintained. If it is - they go solo.

Therefore I hope that I have described a standardised gradual process that reaches a point where the student has demonstrated the required standards of both knowledge and skill and the next element which is a further confirmation immediately prior to the solo exercise.

I recomend that you also talk to some experienced instructors from the UK Microlighting training organisations. Their sylabus leaves solo until the very end rather than the JAR sylabus which places it somewhere in the middle. You may get some intersting comments regarding the balancing of giving a boost in confidence to making sure they really can be PIC before going solo.

---------


Did I :mad: up?


Were you PIC at the time? No. So provided you reasonable assessed the conditions as suitable and briefed correctly, the pilot in command of the aircraft at the time was 100% responsible. Students seem to loose sight of this - they are PIC and they are 100% responsible for everything that a PIC can be held responsible for - notams, weather, not breaking the aeroplane!! Insurance!!!!!!

[Tmbstory]

If we are talking about " The First Solo Flight", in the good old days, the instructor, when he decided that the time was right, would tell the student that it was to be the first solo circuit, then would get out of the aircraft on the Aerodrome and watch the Student's circuit and landing. About the final word to the Student was not to forget to pick up the instructor after his first solo landing, as it was often a long walk back to the flight office!

Tmb

[Whopity]

Zyg

The "gut feeling" is a way of describing judgment and experience accumulated over a period of time. DFC has indicated that its is the culmination of a period of preparation to ensure that the student has completed all the necessary items that will give him a good chance of safely completing his first flight as PIC and be able to cope with any basic emergencies should they occur.

First solo is a very important psychological step for a student that confirms in their own mind that they have been able to achieve the solo (safe) standard. Quite often a student will regress after first solo and it may take a while before they get back to being able to do it again.

It is interesting that in the Microlight world and in FAA training, less emphasis is placed on the time to first solo. In the main I would say that typically 13 - 15 hours represents a good average, many take considerably more. I recall training one student who had completed 30 hours training on a FAA course, he was at the navigation stage and had never flown solo. On RAF sponsored Flying Scholarships ( Military sponsored Civil Training) they required the student to solo in the 9th hour of training. In many cases this was pushing the instructors out of their comfort zone and sending students off prematurely. This was born out by a higher level of landing incidents usually involving the nosewheel on subsequent solo flights. As a full instructor I recall authorising 10 first solos in 2 days, 7 were trained by Assistant Instructors who were not allowed to authorise first solo, so they had to fly the 8th hour with a full FI. Interestingly, it was immediately apparent who had taught each student as they mimicked their instructors habits, both good and bad. With a maximum of one hour to get each students solo after they had been trained by someone else was quite a challenge and highlights a number of other factors. In the main you are looking for 3 consecutive, consistently safe circuits. If the student is practicing for an hour, tiredness becomes a factor and performance deteriorates therefore, after 45- 50 minutes if they haven't made the grade give up. It is better that they start afresh and go solo after 30-40 minutes of dual training when their performance is optimum. It is also important for the instructor to send the student off without giving them too long to think about it. Ideally land, jump out and send them off. If you ask a student, are they ready or would they like to go solo, they may hesitate or say no, and you have lost the opportunity.

There is a growing trend for instructors to enter the circuit too soon, skimming through the basic exercises and then spending too long in the circuit; often the students ability to fly attitudes is poor, lookout is often non existent and the time to solo increases. This is probably the result of poor instructor training, where not enough emphasis has been placed on the basics. The instructor then sees first solo as his initial target and believes that teaching in the circuit will achieve this.

[Dave Clarke Fife]

My criteria used to be................would I be happy to let my mum stay on board with this guy as he flew his first solo (not literally obviously) combined with a lot of the good stuff from above.

[mad_jock]

There is a growing trend for instructors to enter the circuit too soon, skimming through the basic exercises and then spending too long in the circuit; often the students ability to fly attitudes is poor, lookout is often non existent and the time to solo increases. This is probably the result of poor instructor training, where not enough emphasis has been placed on the basics. The instructor then sees first solo as his initial target and believes that teaching in the circuit will achieve this.

I will second that comment almost all students I have taken over when they have reportedly issues with landings have resulted in going back to basics. While correcting the basics its not uncommon for the student to click with the flare and landing when returning to base.

[Say again s l o w l y]

That is the biggest problem in flight training. Whenever I have seen a student training record where the initial exercises have been rushed and they've just been dumped into the circuit, then you know there is going to be trouble.

The circuit is not the place for teaching people how to climb, descend, fly straight and level or change configuration. All of that should be second nature and ex 12,13 should be simply a formality explaining how to put them all together.

As for when is the right time to send someone first solo, firstly, it's a gut feeling as mentioned already. You know when someone is coming up to it.
Secondly shut your mouth and don't tell them that it's coming up! All that happens is they start to focus on the impending solo session and take their eye off the flying.
Thirdly, I make sure they have seen every kind of circuit and know how to deal with people who might try and push them around a bit. If they can then fly 3 circuits without me saying a single word, then I get out and wish them well.

As already mentioned, to start with, you'll massively over-train them and they'll have been ready for a while before you send them off the first time. There's no harm done and it doesn't matter to their training as a whole as you'll be wanting them to get better anyway and so the polishing has just happened before rather than after their first solo.

It is a nerve wracking experience to start with and I think I will always get some butterflies sending someone off for the first time. However, it is one of my favourite things in flight instruction, better to me than the day they actually get their licence to be honest.

[Tigger_Too]

How Should I Know That my Student is Ready for His First Solo???

The only time you will know for sure is about 15 minutes after you send him!

[Zyg]

:ok::ok::ok:

So, what I perceive from your replies is that the decision for sending someone to his first solo is mainly based on that “gut” feeling…
This is absolutely true and acceptable but…
what would you say to a young instructor that still does not have that feeling and intuition ? ?
Has someone of you formed certain criteria that are objective??
Personally, I would like to explore it deeper and look for things like..
“ in flight attention, handling and control, early decision for go around and safe execution, airspeed control, stable approach, R/T and so many other aspects that I believe play a decisive role .
Can anyone recall from his recent experience some particular issues ( actions or inactions like those I mentioned before or something different ), that influenced his decision to allow or disallow student’s first solo ?
:confused::confused::confused:

[mad_jock]

what would you say to a young instructor that still does not have that feeling and intuition

They don't get to send them solo for the first time when they are restricted.

They have to send 20 none first time solo's off before they can get de-restricted.

To be honest the new instructors are that causious about sending students solo you have to prompt them that actually it is ok. You get them to train a student up to the point they think they are ready for solo and see what the student is like. If they are up to standard or better than required you send them solo and leave the restricted instructor to continue developing. I have never had a student who the new instructor thought was good for solo to be below standard. They have always been an easy yep you good to go.

I suppose you could draw up a tick list but I will bet that all the experenced instructors on this thread will have had a student who could tick every box on your list but we still didn't send them solo because it didn't feel right.

[blagger]

One of the key things is the student's decision making ability - just before solo you want to see them recognise mistakes and errors on their own and then sensibly correct them. This is why it is so important for instructors to shut up when getting close to sending first solo; those instructors that are constantly 'coaching' their student in the air do their student a big disservice.

I also pay good attention to the student's RT as well - it is normally a really good indication of what capacity the student is operating at. Good, fluent RT with good responses to ATC shows a student who has things under control. Students who are very flustered on the RT and starting to miss ATC calls are normally at max capacity and only just coping.

[Cows getting bigger]

MJ - I think you will find it is 25, not 20. :ouch:

In my limited experience, the first solo isn't the most dangerous. As already hinted, many students are quite capable of solo some significant time before the moment they are actually sent off. For me, the more dangerous period is the first few hours of solo flight after first solo; namely 3-6th solos and the early cross county trips. At this point the student pilot is gaining in confidence, may already be applying slightly lower standards and the instructor may be more relaxed.

I have never had a student do something noticeably wrong on their first solo - I wish I could say the same about those who are circuit bashing on their subsequent solos. :oh:

[mad_jock]

Fair point CGB been a few years.......

[Pull what]

This is absolutely true and acceptable but…With respect, no it is not and this is how accidents occur- gut reaction is a small part of the preperation for first solo.

DFC, yet again, is the only instructor, so far, to appear like a professional instructor I would like to employ or work with.

And Whopity too!

[Say again s l o w l y]

Righto, since you've made some snap judgement based on a few comments, would you like to expand on them, so that I can call you a tw*t properly and rip apart whatever nonsense it is that you are blathering on about.

[johns7022]

When I did primary instruction full time this is how I did it..

Usualy around 15 to 20 hours the student has demonstrated HIS/HER ability to fix airspeed, pending stalls, botched landings, with out my help...that's key...so when it came time to consider the person to solo..I did 3 supervised solos..

The first one usualy comprised of my flying with the student for about an hour or so...turns, climbs, descents, holding airspeeds and alts, bascialy do this and that, and the student does, and fixes his own problems, then slow flight then stall recoveries...if all goes well, everyone feeling good, we do like ten landings...finding a runway with no wind, plenty long, no traffic, and I sit back and have the student do his thing with very little imput, seeing if the student can handle it on his own...ten landings later the student, should feel pretty good that all he has to do is replicate three landings on his own, having just done ten landings of the same...

I get out, I watch, and the student does two touch and goes, the last one a full stop..he picks me up...now he feels like a pilot..he flies me home...

As far as when to get out of the plane for the first time...sometimes an instructor has to guage the confidence level of the student...as they have already demonstrated flying/landing the plane so much with you, this is simply about doing it themselves...so you need to give them the chance to do that when you fly with them...don't be grabbby and always talk them through it..too many instructors barely ahead of thier students, don't have the confidence to let thier students actualy fly....

2000 hours of instruction I only had one student almost blow it...simply put, 22-30-40 hours later, he was very proficient, but lacked any confidence and almost busted up the plane...it was all psychological..once I was out of the plane, he just didn't think anything he did was him....my mistake was doing one of those 'ok it's like 40 hours, time for me to get out'...kind of like throwing your kid in the lake when all else failed to teach him how to swim...the fact is...that rarely works...if you have done everything you can to demonstrate they have confidence in the plane, and they just can't do it...then your in the area of how they were brought up..being thier psychologist basicaly, and not thier flight instructor...all that said, I had plenty of students other's gave up on, especialy older peeps wanting to fly...it's fun and challenging finding ways to get people over learning plateus, psychological demons, etc...

Anyway, you do three of these supervised solos, picking days where you have a little more wind, some more traffic in the pattern, where they demonstrate fixing thier own problems, building confidence....and if they they show themselves feeling good, being solid, no issues, then you restrict them to come out on thier own on nice days, little wind and work up from there...

In the mean time your still flying with them a few times a week, and they are giving you feedback on thier solo flights...critiques, thoughts, feelings ect...

Most of my students were done by about 60 hours...

[Pull what]

Righto, since you've made some snap judgement based on a few comments, would you like to expand on them, so that I can call you a tw*t properly and rip apart whatever nonsense it is that you are blathering on about.

This sort of post highlights the problem not only with this forum but also the low standard within the UK instructing profession-as long as people like you are allowed to post on here in that manner I cannot be bothered to add anything else.

[Say again s l o w l y]

Ahh good. Arrogance and an inability to answer a question. You feel willing and able to insult people, but when challenged back you decide not to participate.

It's exactly people like you, with no backbone, that have caused our industry to become the mess that it is today. Are you willing to stand by your silly statement or like many other FI's do you not really care enough to stick around and actually have a debate without resorting to flip perjorative statements about "how accidents occur."

You might have a different opinion and that is fine, but to accuse others of unsafe practice without qualifying those remarks is idiotic.

Why is "gut feeling" and experience unimportant? Why not share the benefit of your obvious wisdom...

The ball's in your court skippy. Let's see what you've got.

[seaskimmer]

Gents, I have embarassingly just been down a similar road in another thread, I doesn't end well from my experience.

[mad_jock]

Mind you SAS I am a meer beginner at sending folk solo using my gut feel. I reckon its just over 20 now with no accidents/incidents. You must have more.

I presume DFC in his usual condersending manner has stated the bloody obvious again about completeing all the exercises, covering emergencys, having a medical and all that other good stuff. Which most folk as professional instructors would have taken as read.

This thread has made me think what do I look for? I had a break from Instructing for 5 years. Yes the patter was a bit rusty. But strangely the yes/no about sending someone solo hadn't changed at all. Its almost like a switch flicks on that first circuit of the sortie. Yes this feels right, look out the window at the wing tip and leave them to it. Second circuit give them a fanstop see if that knocks them out the groove. Then 3rd circuit take the RT on finals ask for a fullstop exit to the intersection. Student 9 times out of 10 still doesn't realise whats happening. Give them a brief, tell the tower whats happening and start the walk back to the office with a big grin on my face that there is another pilot in this world. And I never watch them doing the circuit because I know they will be fine.

[Zyg]

I would like to say a big thanks to everyone that honors me by pitching in my endeavor to make a part of aviation training more safe and efficient ......
I feel that we have to "catch" all those critical incidents that take place out there and are alike worldwide .....
knowing all the "small" things helps you apprehend the big picture...:D

[OneIn60rule]

Exercise 4 through 13.

Student should be able to cope with a fair amount of problems which includes: G/A, Fan stop, Mayday call, Be aware of wake vortex.

Good R/T
Generally good flying, aircraft in balance during climbing turns etc.
Speed personally I don't mind if they go 5KT under or 5KT over on the approach speed.

The main focus in my own opinion is to see them do everything on their own and make good calls and R/T.

Height plus or minus 150 feet weather depending, speed not less than minus 5 KT and not more than 10KT. Landings well controlled, this includes being able to sort things out if he/she ballons slightly.

If you have to do something for them, it best not be something too critical.
If I am not entirely satisfied then I let the most senior FI go with them and call it a progress check.


A vital lesson I heard from an examiners point of view: If you never let them ballon, how will they know that they have?
This goes back to a case were a student flew into a grass strip, ballooned- bounced *not corrective action* , bounced again, crashed and thereafter parts of the aircraft took 3 months to mend.

The student had never been shown what a balloon is and never managed to perform one haphazardly until he/she was alone.

[mad_jock]

Good point about ballooning

[Say again s l o w l y]

I can't really remember how many people I've sent solo personally, all I know is that they all survived the experience and no aircraft were ever broken, but I suppose because I don't feel the need to state the bleedin' obvious, I'm of course an appalling instructor and the reason this industry is in a parlous state... :ugh:

None of the FI's I've worked with both as a CFI or back when I was an FI(r) have ever killed people by sending them off too early either. Funny that.

I can only think of that one horrible accident in Southend where a student on their first solo died, that really is a nightmare, but it shows how it can happen and that you can never become flippant about this part of the course.

There is more to teaching people to fly than just ticking boxes. If FI's don't use their "gut feeling" and experience to help drive their actions, then they are the most useless FI's ever to have sat in the cockpit of an aircraft.
Process is all very well, but it has to be combined with a bit of nous too.

[PowerDragTrim]

Very simple rule - 3 consecutive SAFE arrivals (not TOUCHdowns) and they are ready, assuming all the pre-solo emergencies have been covered earlier.

[DFC]

And I never watch them doing the circuit because I know they will be fine.


So how do you de-brief their performance?

Is it that you don't onserve the first solo or that you don't observe any solo flying?

Just because the first solo is quite a big milestone and a good reason for celebration after does not remove the fact that it is a training exercise and should be properly de-briefed (or at least the instructor should observe so that anything that arises can be debriefed) after.

Is this a good example of the instructor getting carried away with the fact that this is a significant event and therefore not doing something that they would normally do?

Perhaps one needs to look at how the first solo affects the instructor as much as it affects the student i.e. how is the instructor affected by students that struggle to solo etc. ?

[Say again s l o w l y]

You debrief a first solo? Why?

I take my students down to the pub and let them enjoy themselves.

Debriefing a first solo usually goes like this:

S: "WoooHooooo!"

FI: "Did you enjoy that?"

S: "Gibber, gibber, random nonsense, thatwasfrigginawesome!"

FI: "Nicely done, let's go and celebrate."

An indepth formal debrief after the first solo is possibly the biggest waste of time I've ever heard of. The student doesn't care, you aren't going to be able to add much other than points about the R/T or landing and formalising the whole thing is so ridiculous as to be untrue.

Are you really that humourless DFC? Your last post simply says to me that you have no idea about instructing whatsoever, other than what you have read in a book.

You will hear all about the flight whilst chatting later and you can make suggestions and comments then, not by sticking people in a room and asking them to criticise their performance whilst they are on a massive high.

A formal debrief immediately after an acceptable first solo... Pointless, boring and completely missing the ethos of making flying as enjoyable an expereince as possible for your customer.

Lighten up for crying out loud.

[Cows getting bigger]

I never watch my students' first solos. I'm too busy billing the accounts girl for the "First Solo Bonus" I get paid. :}

[FI-A]

I really second the part on ballooning. When I get the "feeling" that a student is getting close to his first solo, I tell him that I will make a control input on short final, just to make sure he's making the correct inputs in case of a sudden gust or whatnot. I also usually ask the student on climbout/crosswind where the preceding aircraft in the circuit is. Sometimes, if traffic is dense, I also tell him to fly back and forth to the holding outside of the traffic pattern. It is good to see the student being able to make an approach from another direction than normal.
And if the third landing is up to standard, I tell him to taxi in to let me off. The important part is not to make a big deal out of with but rather see it as a natural part of the syllabus.

This might seem a little complicated at first, but the reality at big FTO's is that you might be sending someone off that you have spent very little time flying with. Reading through previous instructor comments is of course important, but I rather see some of the vital things myself.

[Zyg]

Excuse me Gentlemen but.....i really don't get it....:ugh:
When i started that thread i was looking for support and opinions from professionals, concerning a subject that i am sure it is very safety critical and important... i was very happy with all your replies :D but ......what happened now ? ? ?
Why this became a personal dispute ? ? :=
i cannot express how frustrated i get when instead of opinions i read allusions and personal insults.....
Please help me get this thread back on tracks ............

I declare again the purpose of that thread ........i want to have a discussion concerning what standards of flying is required from flying instructors in order to allow a student to be sent to his/her first solo .....and nothing else irrelevant ......

thank you all....

[Say again s l o w l y]

Zyg, don't worry too much about it.

There is some good advice on here, take that and try to ignore the rest of the nonsense.

Once you ask a question I'm afraid you have no control of how it then goes along. Pilots are an argumentative bunch sometimes, all you're seeing is that in electronic form!

All of the discussions are relevant though. Even if they do seem a bit grumpy. Would you debrief a first solo formally for example? Obviously I wouldn't for the reasons stated, but would you? Only you can decide that.

One thing to remember on forums is that people aren't always what they might appear at first glance. Indeed there is a good warning at the bottom of each page on this site about it.

I am making no comment about anyone, as I don't have any information, but I've been on this site a long time and there are people on here I know personally or through reputation, their opinion I trust implicitly, otherwise there is always a bowl of salt next to my computer monitor!

[Pull what]

There is some good advice on here, take that and try to ignore the rest of the nonsense.

What, nonsense like this?


You debrief a first solo? Why?

[Say again s l o w l y]

:ugh::ugh:

Now, would you like to explain why having a formal debrief immediately after the first solo flight adds anything to the experience or are you just going to snipe from the corner and never actually bother to add anything useful?
(Note the use of the words immediately and formal.)

Do I have to call you names again?

[mad_jock]

Actually Pull What are you even an instructor?

Going back to the old theory of learning as an instructor you should know when your student is going to be receptive to information be able to process it and learn from it.

Hence why sometimes if the student has a particularly bad trip you don't actually debrief immediately afterwards. You let them go off have a coffee have a think about what happened form there own thoughts about what went wrong. Then once they are in the right frame of mind do you start debriefing. And a good instructor will let them debrief themselves. The reason for this is so you can spot if there has been a fundemental bit of knowledge been miss interpreted. Then if they miss anything (quite often they have done something you haven't spotted) you add it on at the end along with your couple of high points.

The solo student isn't in the right frame of mind 9 times out of 10 to drive a car never mind sit down and discuss the finer points of the just flown circuit.

The reason why I instruct is so that other people get the same amount of enjoyment out of flying as I do. Its meant to be safe and fun.

Without going through all the accident reports and counting to be honest the solo phase of training is actually the least likely part for the student to have an accident. In the last 15 years I can think of only 2 fatalities with solo students. One was a CFIT from an Intergrated school and the other the lad at Southend. You are far more likely as a student to have an accident with an instructor on board.

As a matter of interest the Mil chaps what was your de brief after solo? My mates who were in the UAS seemed to be transported to the mess to buy a keg of beer.

[Pull what]

Its meant to be safe and fun.Taught and supervised by professional instructors

[Say again s l o w l y]

Stop trolling and add something useful. All you are being is aggravating for no reason.

If you want to add something, then go ahead, but otherwise you're just going on the ignore list.

I've just looked back through your posting history. It seems you do nothing but post snide comments and I have yet to see a well thought out and considered post from you.

[Pull what]

I've just looked back through your posting history.

Thanks I am flattered, if there is anything I can help you with let me know.

[mad_jock]

So your first observation that he is a tw@t was correct then SAS.

Maybe him and DFC working together would be a match made in heaven.

And yes you can help

Give us your theory on learning and how students process information in the learning enviroment.

Then please explain the factors that can degrade the proccessing of information and the ability to learn form that information.

Then explain how the student will benefit from a formal long debrief from a first solo straight after completion.

[Pull what]

Not sure why you two need to get so worked up?

MJ you said its meant to be safe and fun. I added it should also be taught and supervised by professional instructors. Do you not agreee with that?

Flying instruction is meant be safe and fun taught and supervised by professional instructors-cannot see what is wrong with that statement unless it makes you feel uneasy!

I appreciate you both need to refer to people as twats if they do not agrree with your way of thinking but do you also both think that makes you appear right or makes you sound like a professional instructor.

[Say again s l o w l y]

Thanks I am flattered, if there is anything I can help you with let me know.

You can help by simply posting more than one line of nonsense and actually contribute something useful.

Obviously you think of yourself as an instructor without parallel, so why not help educate us poor souls...

[Pull what]

But the difference is I do not see either of you as twats, just two flying instructors who have the interest to be on here and share your views- I may not agrree with them but I will still talk to you in the same manner as if we were in the pub facing each other.

[mad_jock]

Not uneasy at all quite happy with my status thanks.

Now back to the questions I needed help with.

Come on show us if you have any background knowledge at all about what you are talking about?

Then use this to expand your one liners implying that nobody else is doing correctly apart from you and DFC. And the rest of us by implication are unprofessional and a danger to flight safety.

Until you do that unfortunately you do come across as a trolling tw@t with no substance to your statements.

[Pull what]

Then use this to expand your one liners implying that nobody else is doing correctly apart from you and DFC. And the rest of us by implication are unprofessional and a danger to flight safety.

Would you like to post an example of the above so I can correct your misunderstanding

[Say again s l o w l y]

Not sure why you two need to get so worked up?

MJ you said its meant to be safe and fun. I added it should also be taught and supervised by professional instructors. Do you not agreee with that?

Flying instruction is meant be safe and fun taught and supervised by professional instructors-cannot see what is wrong with that statement unless it makes you feel uneasy!

I appreciate you both need to refer to people as twats if they do not agrree with your way of thinking but do you also both think that makes you appear right or makes you sound like a professional instructor.

So what about the extremely competent amateur instructors? I know plenty of superb FI's who aren't "professionals" but do a fantastic job.

If you have no idea why you have got the reaction from MJ and I, then I suggest you reread your excruciatingly arrogant first post on this thread.

First impressions last as they say. My first impression of you, to put it as charitably as I can, was not positive.

With respect, no it is not and this is how accidents occur- gut reaction is a small part of the preperation for first solo.

DFC, yet again, is the only instructor, so far, to appear like a professional instructor I would like to employ or work with.

This sort of post highlights the problem not only with this forum but also the low standard within the UK instructing profession-as long as people like you are allowed to post on here in that manner I cannot be bothered to add anything else.

If you wonder why you've got a reaction from me, then you need glasses. You know nothing of the people who post on here or their experience and yet you feel qualified to make snide, unqualified comments about people's competence.

You may notice that I have not slagged of your instructing abilities, just your personality. At least I've been able to glean enough information to make that judgement. I don't call you a tw@ because I disagree with you, but because of the way you come across.

Contribute if you want and qualify any comments you wish to make and I might disagree, but I'll at least show you some respect.

Come in here and make silly comments having a go at people, then expect to get a size ten boot up your backside from me.

I've been around on Pprune for over 10 years and I've seen the steady decline of the quality of poster. You are just another nonsense poster who adds nothing but noise.

Sorry Zyg, just skip over this stuff.

[Pull what]

MJ there is some information here which may be of interest

Aviation Instructor's Handbook - Google Books (http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=-jsWy04BE50C&pg=SA8-PA12&lpg=SA8-PA12&dq=debriefing+after+first+solo&source=bl&ots=pjEGYESgce&sig=qT1xLlDi1pY-Oz8JsaHLmLUEfbU&hl=en&ei=VsQQTPaMA42J4gbc-ZiGCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CBkQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=debriefing%20after%20first%20solo&f=false)

page 8.12

[Say again s l o w l y]

What has that book got to do with anything. It's a handbook. It isn't the law. Or are you the sort of FI who simply follows the "rules" without thought.

That section doesn't mention first solo though, simply post-solo debriefing. The first solo is a special case and that bit isn't applicable in my eyes.

[mad_jock]

Ehh what the hell has that got to do with the questions I asked you?

For a start its FAA and we do do things differently over here. We put alot more emphasis into how people learn and the instructor adapting there teaching style to the student not the student changing there learning style to the instructors teaching style.

And as an example of FAA -> UK difference I think you will find that NDB dip doesn't happen in the FAA world. Strange that cause it always happens in UK air space.

Unusal attitude correction. FAA teach to lift the wing using rudder. UK you would get a good talking to or failed for it.

Actually reading it. Instructor should have a radio to abort the exercise if required. Great whats the student meant to do parachute to the ground and let the aircraft crash.

[Pull what]

Actually reading it. Instructor should have a radio to abort the exercise if required. Great whats the student meant to do parachute to the ground and let the aircraft crash.

Read it again it says ANY solo operation.

[Say again s l o w l y]

So what? That doesn't mean a thing. What about your opinion, rather than just using an American textbook for reference?

[mad_jock]

"Any solo operation" that will be fun when they are flying x country's

Also technically its illegal in the UK for anyone to transmit on a ground based station (yes I know you can use it when in an aircraft taxing) on aeronautical frequency's. Thats an additional exam and license.

Its FAA recommendations not UK ones. RAF do have a duty pilot in the tower when they are operating. There is no requirement for flying schools in the UK to have a radio watch. I have worked at a CFS approved school and there was also no SOP to give radio cover to solo students.

[Zyg]

Thank you Gentlemen for spicing up that thread...........

For the past 7 days i have been wondering around flying schools and aero clubs conducting individual interviews with flying instructors, concerning my research.

The scientific technique that i am using in my project is called «Critical Incident Technique" or CIT and has its roots back in the 1950's...
Its a very efficient and reliable method and is based on incidents that come out from interviews with Subject Matter Experts (SME's). The "bad" thing is that its very time consuming and effort demanding.
The more participants you have the better will be the outcome of course and that's what i want to have...a solid, credible and scientific based piece of work ....

Although its too early for me to reach to a conclusion, i have spotted some really interesting things in the way that flying instructors are making their decision either to send or not their student to his/her first solo....i promise you that when i finish my analysis i will provide a link to a site that my research will be available....
I will continue my data collection until the end of June and after that i will analyze it using "grounded theory"....

Just for my records and in order to be more sure about the findings (i cannon use officially in my research anything that is not coming from participants that have signed a participant concept form ) could anyone of you give me some replies on the following ? ? ?

(This is a modified version of the interview schedule that I am using….)

“I would like you to think back to a flight or session of flights that you have had with a student pilot within the last year or so, where at some point you were engaged in a process of assessment (formal or informal) with a view to sending the student for his/ her first solo.
I would like to avoid situations of currency checks or annual checks or checks for specific purposes such as area solo, cross-country flying, aerobatics, or type-conversions, because I am only interested in pilot’s first solo flight”
Key questions
Think of a student that you have flown with recently, preferably within the last year, under these circumstances, but don’t tell me their name.”
“Did you allow them to fly solo that session?”
“What was it about that student’s flying that made you say [‘no’ / yes] on that occasion?”
Where there any specific “incidents” that you can recall from that particular flight that affected your judgment?? (what this student did or did not during the flight)
What preceded and contributed to the ‘incident or incidents?
What was the outcome or result of the student’s actions or inactions?
What would you expect from that student to have done?
Did that student gave you a specific feeling (negative or positive) about his/her performance even before the flight?
Please be specific and concentrate on a particular flight and student and do not express your all-embracing instructing experience which although is invaluable is not usable in that specific method that I am using….:ok:

[Pull what]

“Did you allow them to fly solo that session?”
NO

“What was it about that student’s flying that made you say [‘no’ / yes] on that occasion?”
THE STUDENT FAILED TO USE CARB HEAT CORECTLY ON ALL 5 APPROACHES (no selection)
Where there any specific “incidents” that you can recall from that particular flight that affected your judgment?? (what this student did or did not during the flight)
THE KNOWLEDGE THAT I WOULD HAVE TO REMOVE THE STUDENT FROM THE COURSE IF HE DID NO GO FIRST SOLO AFTER THIS DETAIL

What preceded and contributed to the ‘incident or incidents?
TWO QFIs HAD REFERRED THIS STUDENT TO ME FOR A FINAL CHECK.(They could not get him to use carb heat)

What was the outcome or result of the student’s actions or inactions?
HE WAS REMOVED FROM THE COURSE

What would you expect from that student to have done?
USE CARB HEAT CORRECTLY

Did that student gave you a specific feeling (negative or positive) about his/her performance even before the flight?
HE ASSURED ME THAT HE UNDERSTOOD THE NEED TO USE CARB HEAT CORRECTLY IN THE PRE FLIGHT BRIEFING AND UNDERSTOOD HE WAS BEING GIVEN AN EXTENSION OF TRAINING TIME TO ALLOW AN FS.

[DFC]

MJ and SAS,

You have totally missed the point I made and seem to have profesed to being as much caught up in the emotion attached to the first solo as the student.

Based on MJ's statement I believe that the "debrief" could go along the lines of;

MJ - "Congratulations that was a great first solo you must be very happy"

Student "Thanks. Why do you think that I bounced twice and then re-landed in the last 100m before just about stopping before the hedge"

MJ - "I don't know. I did not take the time to observe what you did"

Student - "Can you please foirward my records to a decent school please"

It is not so much about the amount of the "debrief" is could simply consist of "well done". However, anyone who has trained lost of ab-initio students will have one or more cases where the first solo was not just the standard 1 flight round the circuit before heading for the bar.

If you observe what they do - you might see something that in the subsequent leson can be worked on - even if you don't de-brief it at the end of the flight.

Instructing is a professional activity. Even if someone does it unpaid part-time the activity is still professional and standards should not be based on the renumeration or lack of it.

There is more than one UK civil operator which requires a supervising instructor in the tower for first solo.

Should we not debrief candidates at the end of their skill test?

---------

Zyg,

While MJ and SAS may have "spiced up the thred" they have revealed a very important issue. The instructor is often as emotionally and mentally involved in the struggle to solo as the student and this can have an effect of how the instructor handles the situation.

Thereore I would say that for many in the case of the borderline student, the instructor can often put themselves under unnecessary pressure to release the student - they become personally involved - they fail to keep a professional distance. In such cases, not sending the student solo can be harder than sending them solo.

Unfortunately, you seem to base your questions on emotional reactions to events and snap decisions.

Reasons for saying no;

Failed to fly as well during previous session(s) (at the end of which the decision was made to send them solo next time if the standard was maintained).

Traffic levels increased.

They have to avoid traffic that they did not spot - I pointed out and have a drop in confidence.

The weather has changed

They exhibit initial signs of fatigue.

and about 100 other reasons.

Reason for sending solo;

They demonstrated the required safe standard and conditions are suitable.

So as I say above, sending them solo is often easier and more clear cut than not sending them solo.

[Cows getting bigger]

DFC makes a good point. I think I mentioned somewhere else the 'rush' to get 25 solos in order to de-restrict an FI rating. Personally I feel this requirement should be dropped/amended; the better FI will have made a 'no' decision as many times as a 'yes'.

[Say again s l o w l y]

Err DFC would you care to point out where I mentioned that I don't either go into the tower or use a handheld radio to help me monitor students on not just first solos, but subsequent solo consolidation flights?

Or that I have my spies in the local ATC units and other local airfields, so that if there are any problems, then I am usually well aware of them before the student even gets back.

What has the skills test got to do with this? It is a completely different flight, however, I always have a listen into the examiners debrief, talk to the student afterwards and then have a word with the examiner seperately to find out if there are any areas that they aren't happy with in relation to the training we do.

I do like the way you are trying to be subtle and have a go and basically call MJ and my unprofessional, when you have no idea what you are talking about.

My first FI job was in an old school, chaotic environment which relied solely on the competencies of the individual FI's, instead of there being a set system with decent checks and balances along the way.

So I am intimately aware of the need for structure and to even intimate that I simply allow emotion and fun to be the sole drivers and forget about the process is for one thing, utter nonsense and secondly insulting.

I am a pragmatist. Not everyone responds to one way of teaching and to make things enjoyable means that your student is more relaxed and learns faster, however that has to be tempered by the strucure of the school.

A formalised debrief after the first solo is usually a waste of time, simply because the student isn't receptive. You might have points to make, but dragging them into briefing room and trying to get them to concentrate on any mistakes they've made is akin to trying to control a classroom full of 3 year olds with ADHD who've just been drinking fizzy pop and munching on sweets.
There is a time and a place and anyone who is a "professional" instructor should be able to judge when it is appropriate. Our students are emotional beings too and to try and pigeonhole them into a single way of doing things often doesn't work. Each needs handling differently, especially in the civvy world. The job of a "professional" is to find the way the maximising the training benefit for each individual, whilst working within a system of checks and balances that ensure that standards are kept high and that nothing is ever missed.

Being a "professional" is more than being a slave to process. If that's how you do things, then you are akin to the management consultant who tells everyone to follow the tools of say project management and learn all the buzz words, but completely forget that the process is simply part of it. Actually getting the job done is far more important and the process is nothing more than a tool to help you. In this case a fantastic project manager doesn't need a six sigma blackbelt to do their job. They could do it without the training. However, someone who is not so skilled might find that the process helps them to reach the required standard.

Process is no substitute for experience, knowledge or talent.

I'd love to be teaching students in a military environment. It sounds like a piece of cake. The "raw material" you are dealing with is much better, you don't have the commercial pressures and you don't really have to deal with motivation issues other than by saying "get better or you're chopped."

That's easy. Teaching smart kids is rewarding, but simple compared to the usual work of a civvy FI in a busy PPL school, where you are often not just an FI, but a father confessor, hand holder, motivator, slave driver, shoulder to cry on, cook, cleaner and bottle washer.


Now, back to Zyg's question. (ZYG, it's been a while for me thanks to a medical restriction, but I have hundreds of examples from more than a year ago.)

* “Did you allow them to fly solo that session?”
Yes
* “What was it about that student’s flying that made you say [‘no’ / yes] on that occasion?”
All sections of the pre-solo flight were conducted safely and with no need for input from the FI. Approaches were safe, touchdowns good, radio calls succinct and showed an understanding of the traffic pattern both in the circuit and joining and exiting the circuit and their impact to it.
* Where there any specific “incidents” that you can recall from that particular flight that affected your judgment?? (what this student did or did not during the flight)
The student was able to correctly judge the busy traffic pattern despite incorrect R/T calls from the other traffic.
* What preceded and contributed to the ‘incident or incidents?
The student had been able to get good situational awareness whilst completing engine run up checks and whilst taxiing.
* What was the outcome or result of the student’s actions or inactions?
They identified and dealt with a potentially dangerous situation and didn't simply rely on the R/T to help them build their SA.
* What would you expect from that student to have done?
Exactly what they did.
* Did that student gave you a specific feeling (negative or positive) about his/her performance even before the flight?
This student is very aware (almost overly so) of their strengths and particularly their weaknesses. They are risk averse and seem very considerate in their actions. This allows me to trust their judgement and to feel that they can handle any situations that might arise during a solo exercise.

[Pull what]

In such cases, not sending the student solo can be harder than sending them solo.A very good point - It is essential fo follow rules, procedures and common sense as well a 'gut reaction'. Sending a student too early, in some cases, can actually reduce confidence and lead to other problems with subsequent solos.

With regard to post FS de briefing, I can understand SAS taking the student to the pub but I prefer a more formal approach which maintains the professional attiude of the training programme rather than personal whim. The post flight FS briefing should take place as early as practical after FS and as well as the obvious should include the technical log/authorisation sheet, aircraft servicalbilty and the responsiblity of becoming an aircraft commander. It should also be considered that delaying this de brief may also be seen by the student as a lack of interest. I always mention to the student that not only is FS a significant milestone in their flying career but also in mine!

There is always time for the pub after the days flying but de briefing is for the school-yarn spinning and boasting is for the pub!

[Say again s l o w l y]

You aren't quite getting it.

Doing a formal debrief immediately after the first solo isn't professional. It's ludicrous. Just because it says that you should do something in the manual, doesn't mean it's a good idea. A lack of "interest"? A lack of interest in what?

Being a "pro" means that you are able to teach your student in the best way possible. Trying to fill their head with the intricacies of techlogs and what being a commander means whilst they are still on a massive high and about as receptive as a brick wall is madness.

For a start, I'd have done all of that prior to them going first solo, infact I teach them about techlogs from virtually day one. Get them doing it from the start either with me or with me just checking it afterwards and signing the bits I need to sign as PIC.

Sometimes the best place for a debrief is the pub not the club house. A debrief doesn't have to involve a white board, model aircraft or the FI being the boss. Sometimes all you need is a good chat through the issues to try and get to the root of a problem in someone's thinking.

Let me guess, you're significantly older than me and think that sit down, shut up, class room based learning is the best way forward for teaching kids in schools. If so, then I'm afraid your approach is simply old fashioned. It works in some cases, but being flexible in your approach to teaching makes life a whole lot better for students in the long run and a hell of a lot more enjoyable for the FI too.

In your example, I understand why the student was cut, but apart from a briefing session, was there any real work done to try and identify why the student wasn't applying carb heat? Was it simply a capacity problem or was there a mental block there for some reason.

It isn't good enough in my eyes simply to use the stick technique of "get better or you're chopped" I've always taught in an environment where that sort of thing is totally unacceptable. You need to get to the root of the problem, not simply wash your hands of them and wait for the next student to come along.

That's just lazy teaching.

[mad_jock]

You can do what you like with your own license and student and if it works for you and your students jobs a good one.

But civi instructors have to deal with students that arn't the cream of the crop have an age range of 16-70 and are all individuals who are paying themselves for a service. Some of them are wanting to go onto be commercial and when we know this the anti is raised and they get trained to a CPL standard they are aware of this and are usually quite happy about it.

The rules and regulations are followed. You will find there are no sepecified procedures defined. There is a syllabus which we all do. But its very loose with no defined methods for quite a few exercises.

For example is a steep turn an emergency avoidance manouver or an exercise in coordination. Does the student roll in sedately or do they roll in as if they were avoiding another aircraft. Even the FII's around the country teach the exercises differently.

To be honest when I was a full time instructor I did very well out of the very formal old school instructional style instructors. They usually appeared after 5 hours instruction and completed the course with me. Some have gone on to commercial and alot of them are still flying. All past the test first time and none of them have had issues with check flights with other schools/clubs.

To be honest your example of failing someone for not using carbheat says more about a lack of talent teaching than it does about anything else. But then again maybe you were trapped by your procedures into only teaching in a certain manner. Thankfully for myself I am only limited by my imagination how I get a student to do an action.

Personally I would have got the student.

1. Vocalise the checklist
2. Read and do the the list instead of using it as a checklist.
3. Taken the student out of the circuit and done circuit boxes away from the field at alt.
4. Made them do a pop noise with there finger before doing the carb heat. Then every time they forgot it make the pop noise myself then take the piss when ever possible about it.

Never had to go past the 4th one which actually proved rather effective. They ended up forgetting the pop using the carb heat then remembering the pop and doing it afterwards. But I presume its unproffesional to have students making poping noises in the cockpit.

I have only had one student that defeated me and to my knowledge he still doesn't have a license. And that student was one of the reasons why I left full time instructing. It was one of the many huge blowups with the CFI that I would never send that student solo on my license, I didn't care if the CFI did. But my gut feel was that he would come to grief and my name wasn't going to be in the tech log when he did.

And you did offer to answer the our questions

Give us your theory on learning and how students process information in the learning enviroment.

Then please explain the factors that can degrade the proccessing of information and the ability to learn form that information.

Then explain how the student will benefit from a formal long debrief from a first solo straight after completion.

[Pull what]

Ok you two-you have posed quite a lot of questions there, do you really want me to hijack the thread by going so far off topic?

I am quite happy to accept you have your way and I have mine. Why not stay on topic and answer the questions that Zyg asked for, perhaps then others will join in too!

[mad_jock]

Yes please.

There is a hellva lot of very inexperenced FI's out there these days with very little mentoring. I am sure your reply's to the questions when related back to the theory section of there FIC will allow them to form an opinion to how much weight they should give your posts.

Its quite common for "sciolists" posts on the forum and I am sure you would agree that for flight safety reasons "sciolists" posters should be outed.

[Say again s l o w l y]

Please do answer the questions MJ and I have asked. I'm happy to have a friendly debate. It's not just the three of us who post or read these forums, so if you want to make a statement, you need to be prepared to be able to back up any comments you make.

That's what made Pprune good in the first place, the fact that someone would post something and there were plenty of people who knew enough to make sure that it was accurate.

I'm not the greatest FI who ever lived, but I'm no idiot and I'm very aware of when I read good stuff or nonsense and being a belligerent sod, I'm happy to say when I think someone is typing guff.

So please feel free to have a go back at me if you want. I'm a big boy and happy to defend my own position if challenged.

[Pull what]

OK well lets keep it friendly-remember if you were on the side of the road and needed help I would be the first to stop!

Just need to do a few things this morning so as as soon as I have time will try an answer some of your questions.

[Pull what]

To answer the thread question

HOW DO I KNOW WHEN MY STUDENT IS READY FOR FIRST SOLO?

When I am satisfied that I could stand up at a coroners inquest and not be accused of negligence as a result of any incident or accident that may have occured as a result of me authorising that solo.

[Say again s l o w l y]

Well, that's trite and completely missing the point. What does that actually mean. Do you go throught the entire syllabus before sending them off on the first solo?

Now, how about answering some of the questions that MJ and I have asked you? Are you unwilling or unable to answer them?

[OneIn60rule]

"allright Blogs, congratulations, how was it?"

"Oh twas fantastic, I was a bit nervous blah blah"

Any problems at all?

"well I had one radio call I didn't quite understand so I said "say again".

Brilliant.

-Student receives certificate and goes to the pub.


Unless the student really has a nightmare in the CCT it would seem pointless to drag on and on about every tiny bit of the circuit.

Also as pointed out, not many students are going to be receptive after such an accomplishment.

[Big Pistons Forever]

My 02 cents

There is no magic forumula which says if Blogs does the following 37 things then he/she is fit to solo. Central to being a flight instructor is be able to use your professional judgement to assess the competance of your student. However one fairly common guideline, which I also use, is the "3 in a row test". That is the student does three acceptable circuits without my having to say/do anything. That combined with my general favorable impression of the student and away he/she goes.
For PPL, especially Presolo ones, I value consitancy over flashes of brilliance. I would far rather see landings which are maybe a bit ugly but safe, over 2 greasers followed by a total smash job followed by another greaser, or good landings salvaged from poor approaches. In my experience the best indication of PPL competance in general, and suitability for solo in particular, is the final approach from 500 ft AGL to the flare. Seeing the nose continually wondering up or down, sawing the power on and off, and having the aircraft swaying from side to side are indicators of a lack of foundation skills no matter how nice the actual touchdown.

In addition IMO, the most dangerous flight is not the first solo it is solo number 3 or 4. Nobody crashes on their first solo but there is plenty of bent metal from pilots with small amounts of solo time. I think this is because instructors can slip into a bit of complency and not provide quite the same level of oversight on a student that has allready gone solo, but the reality is all the factors that you sweat about on the first solo probably still exists on say solo number 3. Because of this I am very carefull about authorizing another instructors student for a solo flight particularly low solo time ones.

As for debriefing after the first solo. Mine is simple and always the same. I tell them to give me their cell phone and wallet......so they do not get wet when we pour a bucket of water over them :E:ok:

I am again dismayed that this is yet another thread that is full of posts that provide little or no actual value to new instructors looking for practical sensible advice. Unfortunately this forum has been hijacked by a handfull of poster that specialize in pedantic and arrogant dissertations which immediately descend into rants and counter rants on points of the most amazing trivia.:rolleyes:

For all you new instructors out there, I highly recommend you check out the training forum on avcanada.ca. It is not perfect but IMO has a lot of really good practical usefull posts.

[Tmbstory]

Big Pistons Forever:

Your post #68 is quite correct and thank you.

Some times a thread drift spoils the thread.

Tmb

[Pull what]

I am again dismayed that this is yet another thread that is full of posts that provide little or no actual value to new instructors looking for practical sensible advice.

When I am satisfied that I could stand up at a coroners inquest and not be accused of negligence as a result of any incident or accident that may have occured as a result of me authorising that solo.

As a FIC instructor this is the best piece of advice I can(and do) give any new instructor--there is an old saying in professional flying, that I was given many years ago-Look after your backside and it will look after everyone elses!

[DFC]

Unless the student really has a nightmare in the CCT it would seem pointless to drag on and on about every tiny bit of the circuit.



Mad Jock said that he does not bother to watch the student on their first solo. That is what started this argument.

If one does not watch what happens it is a bit hard to help the student rebuild their confidence if they are unfortunate enough to have a nightmare.

The issue was never about making a formal debrief it was about the instructor remaining professional and not getting caught up in the emotions surrounding the first solo to the possible detriment of their student's progress.

[Pull what]

Mad Jock said that he does not bother to watch the student on their first solo. That is what started this argument.

But he has explained that this is the modern way of training DFC

[mad_jock]

To be fair SAS I did

And I never watch them doing the circuit because I know they will be fine.

And I never did. Some of that was to do with walking back to the apron along the taxi way/short runway with my back to the main runway. And the fact you couldn't see the theshold when you were walking along the side of the water runoff channel.

All the other instructors didn't either.

And I didn't have a single student I had any doudt that they wouldn't complete the circuit safely.

Had I been at cum with an easy drop off point and that nice FISO station just up the strairs I proberly would have watched and even listened to the radio.

Anyway just stick them on ignore and be done with it

[Say again s l o w l y]

I've just deleted my inaccurate reply. Silly boy that I am!

[BEagle]

Well, going back to the original query...

I used the rule of thumb that 3 consecutive circuits and landings without any need for me to say or do anything was the decider.

After the last landing, I would take control and taxy clear at the mid-point. Then tell the student that I wanted him/her to do the power check, pre-take-off checks and go off when cleared for one circuit, then come back to the same spot to pick me up.

I'd watch him/her getting on with this on my way to the ATC tower. The reason I went to the tower was more to stop any Air Trafficker BS interfering with the trip than to watch the student!

When he/she came back to pick me up, they'd be all smiles, of course. A quick handshake and then I'd taxy it back. The debrief would be conducted during taxying - "Go OK, did it?" "Yes" "Well done, Captain!"

I only recall one student saying that he didn't think he was ready. I told him that although I thought he was, if he wasn't happy, then OK. I suggested that I'd ask another FI to fly with him the next time, so that he could have the benefit of a second opinion.

m_j - did you send A Certain Lady off on her first solo? That must have been fun.....:\

[mad_jock]

I can't remember to be honest. I don't have that log book with me. I proberly did. Either that or it was the CFI.

I can remember her getting flustered at one point on her solo consolidation circuits when the wind shifted and she did a GA. ATC came on the phone that she was asking for me. They asked me to go to tower which is miles away across the other side of the airport which you can't get into unless you either drive for 5 miles or get an ops car. I instructed the ATCO to pass the message "get a grip woman"

All ended up with ops car belting around the place and pinky coming in for a utterly gorgeous one wheel down then the next then the front cross wind landing bang on the center line with no input from anyone.. And an ATCO nearly having a heart attack because it was the fastest he has ever legged it up the stairs to the visual room.

All part of the drama of pinky learning to fly.

Hows she doing BTW?

[BEagle]

Not flying these days - but you can hear her on Two Lochs Radio at 1700 tonight!

Two Lochs Radio, Wester Ross, 106 & 106.6 FM (http://www.2lr.co.uk) (and it has an Internet audiostream....)

[mad_jock]

Thats a shame.


I think I will listen to that for want of something better to do.


Might give her a visit next time I am back. From what I remember she is a cracking cook on that argar of hers. The cakes and biscuits she used to bring were to die for.

[bingofuel]

Mad Jock, a true Scot would know it is an AGA, unless you were one of the 'puir folk' who had a Raeburn.

[mad_jock]

Nah city boy. Not a teuchter. Don't get your AGA's in the west end. :p

[Say again s l o w l y]

Nah, they just use a blazing polis car for heating food up.