Air Transat Hiring Again! [Archive]

clunckdriver

2nd Jun 2010, 15:00

No Canuck its your head needs a shake, TTC bus driver,{the kind without wings} starting pay $70,000, plus benifits, unionised, total security, has to learn two things, which pedal to go, which one to stop, my pension is more than Transat pilots make for Petes sake! Lets hope the Jazz pilots can turn things around for the rest of the industry, what other country does a pilot with years of experience ride a bus to work driven by a driver who makes more money?As long as folks like Canuck think that these pay scales are OK the likes of Transat/Porter/Jazz and God knows how many others will continue to pay peanuts!Seems when an outfit does pay and charge a market rate the bottom feeders go after the routes and drag the whole industry down to their level{AKA Air Canada/Westjet cut pricing to put First Air in the poor house}Have a look at the Southwest buisiness model, no head shakes required!

Nuuk

2nd Jun 2010, 18:05

Six7driver

Air Canada'zzzzzz entry salary of 37.5 :yuk: is much better mate! What a joke! And that's why a city bus driver makes 70K clunkdriver, because they stand together.

clunckdriver

2nd Jun 2010, 20:25

Nuak,I dont need to have that explained to me, its the present generation of pilots who dont seem to grasp this simple point, united you stand, divided you fall,one only has to look at the seniority fights during mergers to see this, and by the way, I just recieved another e mail from a kid "willing to fly for free," no you wont son, but you are on my "no fly" list now. All we need in Canada now is a few P2Fly idiots to come over from the EU/UK to really put the piloting right up there with McDonalds and Wallmart!

Willie Everlearn

2nd Jun 2010, 21:28

clunk

I won't fly for any canadian operator because they won't pay me what I'm worth. I can't imagine any of them would pay me what I THINK I'm worth. If they did, that might make me to change my mind. I'm certainly not convinced it matters to anyone or that I'm screwing myself but it would sure be nice if a few more out there would turn their backs on these silly outfits.
As far as I'm concerned, your assessment of what goes on in this industry in canada is spot on and driving a bus is so much easier and for a lot more money to boot.

When these outfits start whining to the Feds because they can't get experienced crews and need to hire foreigners, maybe then canadian pilots who are experienced will nip it in the bud.

No. That's not going to happen either.
What a joke. What an absolute joke.

Willie :ok:

clunckdriver

2nd Jun 2010, 22:06

Willie, as I rumble along at 200kts in my little twin {421B} I am comforted by the knowledge that I make more in a day than most RJ pilots make in a week, for this I will put up with having to dodge the odd CU and wash my own aircraft, oh, I forgot to mention the company credit card and the use of the aircraft{free} when my wife and I want to go somewhere, but we dont get to wear one of those fancy uniforms with all them thar gold bars! Ah well, to each his own!

Flexable

3rd Jun 2010, 00:15

Why are poeple turning a good news into a 'pipi' contest??
Check the payscale publish http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/canadian.html
One of the best salary for newhire flying.
And no i do not work there and do not expect to work there again.
But i can tell you i really enjoy the time i did spend there.

jazzjazz

3rd Jun 2010, 04:25

Starting salary at Air Transat is much better than at Air Canada about 70000$ 1st year FO (about 92000$ 5th year FO)+ perdiems, profit sharing, bonus for night flying etc. It is not surprising that salary is so high because people start on heavy airplane right away and Transat hires people with a lots of experience 5000 hrs + for the most part. Also if they didn't pay well a lot of pilots with A330 type rating in their pocket would leave Transat for well paying jobs in Asia or for Air Canada. It is a win win situation for everybody, pilots make good money and company have good pilots that stay there for life (senior PIC-s makes up to 180000$ + perdiems etc...) They work hard for their company but they are well paid. Everybody is happy and it is a career company so almost nobody leaves for Air Canada or elsewhere. And by the way Flexable the salaries from airlinepilotcentral.com are outdated. They are 3 years old and are better now. Everybody I know there likes their job…

3rd Jun 2010, 06:29

Let's see now......

Clunkdriver, age 71.

Born 1939

Trained and flew the clunk circa 1950-1960, at public expense. And gets a pension, at public expense.

Trained, flew, and paid by TCA, morphed to BigRed, crown corporation for the longest time, retires circa 1999. And gets a pension, primarily at public expense.

And clunkdriver says that we overtaxed citizens should choose not to work for less than public service benefits........

Can someone tell me what is wrong with this picture? And how did he get a 421 job that pays 1500 dollars per day?

Bye bye :)

clunckdriver

3rd Jun 2010, 11:26

Your picture JV is to a degree correct, with the following corections{1} Actually, no military pension, not a thing in those days, and not only flew the CF100 but some totally clapped out junk in a grubby little "incident"which if the UN hadnt turned up wearing their blue "dont shoot" hats would have resulted in a large part of the world being run by elected governments, not tribal dictators, not much to do with pilot pay but its nice to keep the record straight.{2} Born 1938. How does one finish up flying a little aircraft for a decent return? Its easy, use ones house for security, go into debt and then work six days a week from 0530 till about 2130 every day for almost ever, sell the operation for less than the value {not complaining, thats aviation and the times we live in} Use the aircraft to train DESERVING kids {and pay them} to give them a leg up in the industry and exposure to the real world of flying as opposed to the make belive world of most FTUs. And by the way, one also has to work as a deck hand half way around the world to even start ones dream, this option is in many cases now blocked by imigration laws, so for this I gues I was lucky to be born when I was, also wasnt made into a bar of soap by the "master race!' so luck does play a small part. None of the foregoing changes the fact that experienced pilot saleries in North America are a bloody joke, wont even get into the American comuter pay scales ,I say again, its absurd that a bus driver starts at higher pay than many experienced pilots will ever make ,now with AC pilots going to age 65 it will further slow up promotion for the younger set{not taking sides on this, just pointing this out} rather than toss rocks at someone like myself your time would be better spent trying to improve the lot of the new generation of pilots who are starting out often loaded with debt and havnt a hope of getting out from under. As an end note, to finish up where I am at this time I lived in six countries to stay in a job,moved on a few days notice, but never broke a contract ,never paid a training bond, would I do it again? your damn rights I would! Good luck with your future plans! PS, part of the secret of making a decent return in private/corporate is to know how to manage it all, from the maint to the fuel buying to customs to washing the thing, the customer should not have to bother with this stuff, too many only think of flying, thats about 30% of the job.PPS, Just re read your post JV, I repeat, No military pension, AC pension paid entirley by myself, including overpayment to make up for joining a bit over the average age, no public money whatsoever, and as the yougest of ten kids in postwar Europe there sure as hell wasnt any money to pay for flying lessons, indeed , hardly enough for food ! Tho only route was the military, So the cheap shots about "tax payers expense", are just that, a cheap shot! There was also a price to pay, of the fourteen aircrew on a course I was on, eleven died on active service, a higher loss rate than our superb troops are taking in Afganistan,{ Old RCAF joke, what should a CF100 crew say on VHF to the Russian bomber on intercept? "Halt, or I blow up"} as you chose to give none of your background its hard for me to comment on your situation ,for all readers can tell you might be another "flight sim ace" or the chief pilot at Transat, if you must post how about letting us know on your profile what you qualifications are? Regards Clunck.

Chuck Ellsworth

3rd Jun 2010, 14:06

Can someone tell me what is wrong with this picture? And how did he get a 421 job that pays 1500 dollars per day?

Bye bye

Let me help you out JV by pointing out something you seem to be missing in your understanding of the aviation industry.

The money you can demand and get is in direct relationship to the skills you have to offer.

There are tens of thousands of airplane drivers around the world, most of them are cookie cutter qualified drivers who get paid as little as the companies can hire them for.

There are some who are able to offer a far higher level of skills and ability to do difficult tasks and they are able to ask for and get paid a much higher rate than the cookie cutter skills limited pilots.

Fifteen hundred dollars a day is good pay but if you have the skills that a given employer needs making double that is not only easy but you would be a fool to work for less.

I hope that answers your question so Clunkdriver does not have to bother responding?

engfireleft

3rd Jun 2010, 14:59

These discussions always seem to turn into a dick swinging contest, and it's that attitude that indirectly results in the inadequate pay we all get.

Chuck Ellsworth

3rd Jun 2010, 15:07

These discussions always seem to turn into a dick swinging contest, and it's that attitude that indirectly results in the inadequate pay we all get.

Dick swinging contest??

You have a problem with those of us who will not work for poor pay?

clunckdriver

3rd Jun 2010, 15:17

Engine fire left, not "all" of us, but looking at pay scales across Canada you seem to be correct in about 90% of the positions out there, will it ever change? Damned if I know.

engfireleft

3rd Jun 2010, 15:36

You have a problem with those of us who will not work for poor pay?

Not at all. I applaud it and think we should all insist on it. What I have a problem with is pilots denegrating other pilots for percieved lack of skill simply because they fly a different airplane or use their airplane in a different role.

It gives operators ammunition to justify lower pay.

clunckdriver

3rd Jun 2010, 15:56

Fire Left, If you had been exposed to some of the standards in some of the of shore outfits Ive dealt with of late {as Chuck has} you would see things from a different perspective Im sure, even reading some of the crash investigations doesnt tell the whole horror story, belive me there are more than one set of standards out there, and now the insurance industry is starting to call the shots thank heavens! When we pay 10% of another outfits costs for more coverage on the identical airframe {thats NOT a missprint} you know how bad things are, so I dont think Chuck was "talking down" to any group, just calling them as he sees them.None of this will fix pilot pay in the short term, it will make the more competant and skilled experienced pilots to be in demand as the insurance companies apply the scews I hope.

engfireleft

3rd Jun 2010, 16:58

I know all about standards in different countries and all the factors that serve to reduce them. I'm also keenly aware of the different standards pilots exhibit within this country. Chuck talks down to pilot groups all the time as do many others, and that's what I have a problem with. The recent report on AC190 is a classic example where the float plane drivers out there are criticizing transport pilots for their lack of hand flying skill.

High altitude maneuvering is something no one but serving fighter pilots are proficient at. Even then fighter pilots would probably wrap a 320 up in a ball because it is an entirely different airplane than what they are used to.

People talk about automation in transports as if it's no more complicated than an on/off switch. Push the button and pull out the newspaper. It only highlights their own lack of knowledge.

This thread is about pay, and I fully agree that we are underpaid skilled workers and that something has to change. Throwing rocks at each other won't do that. You lit after a fellow who simply corrected a wrong assumption about the starting pay at Air Transat. What for? He was simply correcting an error, and it didn't warrant a dick measuring contest no matter what you fly.

clunckdriver

3rd Jun 2010, 17:12

I think the only person who "lit after" anyone is JV, he still declines to reveal his background, so its hard to decide what he is really qualified to comment on, he does however reapeat the old total nonsense about AC pensions being paid by the government and all the other crap about "training at taxpayers expense", its my experience that most who trump out these tired lines recived PFO letters from both the military and AC, thus spend a fair bit of time taking cheap shots at those who made the requied standards,{ before traing to standard came in of course!}

Chuck Ellsworth

3rd Jun 2010, 18:20

Chuck talks down to pilot groups all the time as do many others, and that's what I have a problem with.

Really? I talk down pilot groups all the time?

Please give some examples of me " talking down to pilot groups" where my comments were without merit.

Maybe I should just quit posting here on Pprune like I did on the Canadian forum so I don't offend the self worth of the general Canadian pilot population?

If you have a problem with me I am very easy to find so why not take it up with me in person so I can better understand your concerns, instead of bitching about me here?

I was hoping that if I left the Canadian culture and just stuck to this forum there would be less moaning from other pilots who see me as not really one of their clique.

engfireleft

3rd Jun 2010, 18:57

Please give some examples of me " talking down to pilot groups" where my comments were without merit.

In this statement below you come right out and say most airplane drivers are cookie cutters who deserve the low salary they get paid. They don't have the far higher level of skill and ability the rare few (yourself included) have. I'm one of the cookie cutters, and I dislike being talked down to. I hope you aren't in charge of negotiations for the aviation college under development because your kind of help we can do without.

There are tens of thousands of airplane drivers around the world, most of them are cookie cutter qualified drivers who get paid as little as the companies can hire them for.

There are some who are able to offer a far higher level of skills and ability to do difficult tasks and they are able to ask for and get paid a much higher rate than the cookie cutter skills limited pilots.

Chuck Ellsworth

3rd Jun 2010, 19:31

Let me elaborate on my statement enginefireleft and maybe you will understand the comment better.

There are tens of thousands of airplane drivers around the world, most of them are cookie cutter qualified drivers who get paid as little as the companies can hire them for.

By cookie cutter I meant they are trained to do one kind of flying on a given type of aircraft, the buzz word that describes this concept of flying is SOP's as seen in the airline world.

I am a supporter of the SOP concept and fully endorse it.

However where the ever downward spiral of pay comes into the industry is aircraft are continually evolving into human managed flying computers and most anyone with normal motor skills and enough education to read and write and a basic grasp of math can be trained to fly them.

It is evident by the pay scale now compared to the past that the companies who operate these machines are paying what the pilots will work for, or they would be unable to operate their airlines.

Where you came to the conclusion that these pilots deserve low pay is puzzling because that is not what I said.

I hope you aren't in charge of negotiations for the aviation college under development because your kind of help we can do without.

You can sleep without fear of my being involved in the aviation college that is under construction in Canada because I personally do not think it is going to improve the working conditions across the board in Canada.

I may be wrong but it seems to be just another group of people who already are part of the " in " group setting up another empire.

Ohh... just one more comment about pay.

When I owned several companies in aviation I paid my employees at the top of the scale for the flying they did, but in return I expected them to be of top quality.

engfireleft

3rd Jun 2010, 20:00

You can sleep without fear of my being involved in the aviation college that is under construction in Canada because I personally do not think it is going to improve the working conditions across the board in Canada.

I agree with you there, although I'm sure there is some benefit to be had from it. It just won't be in pay or working conditions because no one is going to take a hit for anyone else.

However where the ever downward spiral of pay comes into the industry is aircraft are continually evolving into human managed flying computers and most anyone with normal motor skills and enough education to read and write and a basic grasp of math can be trained to fly them.

Completely disagree with this for a number of reasons. Airbus and Boeing design airplanes to go from A-Z with everything working, and it's true that after rotation and turning the autopilot on at 100 feet, in a perfectly programmed airplane all that's required in a perfect world is putting down the gear and flaps and selecting the level of autobrake required. Both pilots could die once the thrust levers are set to the climb detent and a monkey could do the rest.

But it isn't a perfect world is it? Properly using that automation requires skill, knowledge and experience. As a situation comes more unglued the pilot has to know how much to scale back the automation to suit the purpose. I've seen many pilots fail to do that properly because they've never been properly trained. When things start to break not only do you have to hand fly the airplane, but you may have to do it with degraded flight controls and seriously degraded flight instruments.

Hardly the cookie cutter skill set you allude to.

However where the ever downward spiral of pay comes into the industry is aircraft are continually evolving into human managed flying computers and most anyone with normal motor skills and enough education to read and write and a basic grasp of math can be trained to fly them.

It is exactly that kind of misguided mindset that plays right into an operators hands. It is a fallacy that these airplanes fly themselves, and when you are in a middle of thunderstorms with things going TU, 30 knot crosswinds, contaminated runways and you're running out of gas to boot, well...let's just say that's a good time to have management negotiators on board.

Chuck Ellsworth

3rd Jun 2010, 21:07

and when you are in a middle of thunderstorms with things going TU, 30 knot crosswinds, contaminated runways and you're running out of gas to boot, well...let's just say that's a good time to have management negotiators on board.

Isn't that all part of the job of being a pilot?

And as I said before.

Most anyone with normal motor skills and enough education to read and write and a basic grasp of math can be trained to fly them.

engfireleft

3rd Jun 2010, 21:28

Most anyone with normal motor skills and enough education to read and write and a basic grasp of math can be trained to fly them.

Most anyone with normal motor skills and enough education to read and write and a basic grasp of math can be trained to fly a PBY or as number three with the Snowbirds. It just doesn't take superhuman qualities does it?

Chuck Ellsworth

3rd Jun 2010, 22:51

Most anyone with normal motor skills and enough education to read and write and a basic grasp of math can be trained to fly a PBY or as number three with the Snowbirds. It just doesn't take superhuman qualities does it?

Exactly we both finally agree on something.

Seeing as you brought up the PBY what is your opinion on the how difficult it is to fly a PBY compared to a Boeing or an Airbus?

Personally it is my opinion that flying helicopters takes more aircraft handling skills than either the PBY or a large jet, what do you think?

I would hate to have only the PBY to compare things to.

engfireleft

4th Jun 2010, 00:31

Seeing as you brought up the PBY what is your opinion on the how difficult it is to fly a PBY compared to a Boeing or an Airbus?

Never flown one, but it's just an airplane. Not as advanced as the Boeing or Airbus, and the Boeing and Airbus have all the same basic systems plus, plus plus...but I'm sure it has it's challenges as well.

Personally it is my opinion that flying helicopters takes more aircraft handling skills than either the PBY or a large jet, what do you think?

Yup.

I think you'll agree there is a difference between basic aircraft handling and operating an aircraft properly. Actual aircraft handling is one small part of the total picture unless you're flying something very simple. Judging a pilot's skill through that alone is absurd.

Willie Everlearn

4th Jun 2010, 00:39

I find numerous Airline transport pilots out here lack the manual flying skills or more accurately, are deficient in manual flying skills more the result of inadequate training opportunity than intellect, co-ordination, or mental capacity. It's not something you regularly do on the line. (well, possibly, but not on as regular a basis as we'd like)
We all need the opportunity to hand fly the machine. Whatever that machine might be. No question.
That said, I firmly believe the modern 'glass' aeroplane with it's auto magic needs to be mastered first. Then we master the manual skills. The problem is, as I said, opportunity.
Isn't that why we flew "UP NORTH" to get the manual flying honed and the IFR procedures engraved in our brains. Regretfully, I see this lack of manual flying skills as the system deficiency. The operators aren't hiring the numbers they used to and the ones joining them to acquire these skills aren't sticking around long enough to cash in on that experience. Most are in too much of a rush to get into heavy iron, which we can't really blame them for.
Salaries. They suck, top to bottom. We're the ones imposing the way it IS in this industry. The pilot unions, starting with ACPA think they live in a capitalist system with democracy and justice YET, they impose a socialist/marxist/communist system on their entire pilot group.
That may sound preposterous, but, the way I see it, under communism, the store clerk and medical doctor receive the same kind of apartment and the same wage. I've always thought that was idiotic. The ALPAs and ACPAs of this world would have you believe that a F/O joining their company starts at the bottom with the stated starting salary, yet some new hire F/Os were wide body captains for a number of years with well over 9/10,000 hours. Unfortunately, if they join one of these 'union' airlines they will start at the bottom at the same starting salary with no consideration for experience. Removing experience certainly levels the playing field but doesn't remotely approach sensible. (I won't get into the Canadian - Air Canada merger)
Before there's a firestorm of agreement or disagreement, I'd simply point out that this is MY jaded view and I know from many conversations, many disagree.
That's fine.
So why then, would anyone think the 'airlines' in this country would be, operate or expect the pilot group out here to be clever enough to even suspect they're getting screwed????
I won't offer my qualifications and experience to any of these outfits anytime soon. F**kem.

Nuuk

5th Jun 2010, 17:22

Back to the topic,

Great news for Canadian aviation, point :D

MAN2YKF

6th Jun 2010, 21:45

So much bitchiness, wow.
Clunkdriver, for the record, TTC don't make $70,000 first year.
I am with GO, a few cents less than TTC.
After 3 years a driver will make approx $58,500 a year without over time.

So after 3 years, TTC and GO operators earn more than 1st and 2nd year Police Officers and a lot of started Pilots.
Personally if i could i would take a $40,000 flying job over my $60,000 driving job if i could.

Now back To TSC....
Lets hope they take back the flights TCX are doing for them right now!

clunckdriver

7th Jun 2010, 10:19

Man2YKF (Man@YKF), the fact that you would fly a complex aircraft with all the check rides and other stuff that goes with it, for less than you get driving a bus underlines my point , that you even make this public does little to convince employers to change the situation, and by the way its a TTC relative who gave me the pay figures, maybe inflateing the pay makes him feel better!

Willie Everlearn

7th Jun 2010, 13:15

It's always a good thing when any of these carriers hire. Good luck to TS and to those who are trying to get in.

As for the business of flying in Canada, I can only do what I can do and change what I can change. Each of us are in the same boat.

As far as I'm concerned, what I CAN do (for me, myself, and I) is stop applying to canadian carriers and take away whatever experience and qualifications I have to offer in the process. Anyone with similar qualifications and experience could do the same if they so desired. This is where the difficulty lies.
Many won't do it. Many will work for $40,000 and as a result change nothing.

Only when the qualification and experience levels drop sufficiently in this country will operators need to find ways of attracting experience. IF THAT'S WHAT THEY, IN FACT, ARE TRULY LOOKING FOR.
I'm not convinced they are.

It's a vicious circle.

But, in the final analysis, many out there aren't paid what they're worth and any new hire with wide body international flying experience has to be worth more initially than any 3,000 or 5,000 hour turbo prop pilot with only domestic experience. (with all due respect)

We listen to and accept the standard line, this is 'industry standard' when it comes to starting wages as justification for the pathetic wage on offer. $40,000 was industry standard back in 1980. Surely, with COL and inflation factored over the last 30 years that industry standard should be a lot higher. But it isn't.
When pilots understand and accept what they're truly worth, many will stop offering their licences and experience to these carpetbaggers and fight back by not applying to them in the first place.

Ahhhh. In a perfect world....

Willie :ok:

wrenchbender

10th Jun 2010, 03:44

Maintenance guys from Air Transat are now going on 737 training. Hmmmmmm.... and btw, they make $80,000 per year. Which is more than Air Canada pays.

Chuck Ellsworth

10th Jun 2010, 13:01

There is a steady down trend in wages for pilots as airplanes become smarter and the pilot pool gets bigger.

What other profession can one think of where anyone with a level of education sufficient to allow them to read and write with some basic math skills can buy a license in a few months to work in the industry?

That and an overpowering desire to fly will keep the wages spiraling ever downwards.

It is amazing that a bus driver is worth more than an airplane driver.

Whoever decided to call the new generation of airline aircraft " Airbus " obviously knew what they were designing.

Flexable

10th Jun 2010, 14:02

"Maintenance guys from Air Transat are now going on 737 training. Hmmmmmm.... and btw, they make $80,000 per year. Which is more than Air Canada pays"

Another proof that employees salary will not stop a well manage company from making money.
Southwest is another example.

While R.Milton is still collecting huge bonus/salary/pension (over $15millions in 2009 alone) and CR is following his footstep (reserving 5% of the cie stock for options/bonus for upper management incentive) while the cie is accumulating loss after loss and the employees are force to accept concession and AC shares in their pension plan instead of cash. What is wrong with this picture?

Willie Everlearn

10th Jun 2010, 15:31

Chuck,

I'd say you're assessment of "cookie cutter" pilots strictly adhering to SOPs is spot on. Most of those "cookie cutter" pilots barely have a CPL/ME/IR and they're jumping into the RHS of serious equipment all over the world. Sadly, with TC approval of the MPL, Canada is soon to be guilty of the same offence. But, research will tell you this move is out of necessity. We're going to enter a period of serious pilot shortages. Aeroplanes will start hitting the ground with more regularity and examination of the flight deck compliment will reveal no surprise to us old fellas. Lack of experience KILLS.
You only have to look at the flight deck compliment in those aircraft that have suffered fatal loss of control, stall, or overrun accidents in the last 5 years to compile a disturbing trend. We in the type rating training business have no room in the syllabus to address manual flying skills and the airline doesn't want it in the cirriculum. Is this wrong? Damn right it is. But once again it's a question of economics and balance sheet. Out of economic realities to stay in business, not just stock holder pressure, the airlines are in serious positions to go bankrupt on any given day.

I do not support the MPL. I understand the intent and purpose. I participated in some of its earlier development. The cirriculum is outstanding. The three phases undoubtedly prepare the candidate for the RHS in just about any commercial airliner. This is not what industry needs. The lack of line experience imposes undue pressure on line captains who will have to focus more on, pardon the expression, babysitting the RHS.
Captain ranks who themselves, through attrition, will be more and more less experienced and who will fly with an ever increasing number of inexperienced RHSers. Green on green becoming Red on red.
For more than 15 years now this industry has allowed the treatment of its professional flight deck to spiral into a state of mistreatment, disrespect, inappropriate financial compensation, cancellation of pensions, and removal of the preflight sandwich tray (talk about cheap). We are at the point where not many young individuals even think about piloting as a career. Gee, what a surprise!
It may be time we put a quash to the notion that we will accept anyone with less than ____________ (you fill in the blank) as the minimum acceptable licence and experience in the RHS sitting next to us and if the airline has to cut back, park aeroplanes, delay expansion or face financial ruin ONLY then will they get the message.

I have seen the future, and we don't want to go there. Even though we will have to and STANDARDS will/must play a huge part in the assessment of these crews standards.

As for basic manual flying skills, like V1 cuts, we can practice the sH*t out of the maneuver and fly for 40 years plus and NEVER experience it on the line. In the newest 4th generation aircraft, we can fly the sH*t out of the thing using any control law and manual flight but we may have to fly more than 40 decades to experience an event that will require those talents.
That's just the way it is.

Willie :ok:

clunckdriver

10th Jun 2010, 16:20

Willie, GREAT POST! should be mandatory reading for all management, well said! {PS, check you PMs}

clunckdriver

10th Jun 2010, 21:35

Have just read on another forum that Transat pilots have obtained a one million dollar loan{gift?} from ALPA International so as to give them some clout during upcoming contract talks, will be away flying for a day, so maybe someone with more info could post.

TheCanuck

11th Jun 2010, 02:02

Clunk, What do you care if we got a million, you got a hard on against this company, so what is it to you?? We'll never be able to negotiate something good enough that would warant your approuval. Remember your pension is worth more than my salary. :=

Willie Everlearn

12th Jun 2010, 01:49

TheCanuck,

Pardon me, but I have to contribute the following.

While I know very little of AT I've watched their success over the last 20 plus years and understand the contributions many pilots past and present must have contributed to that success.

Good luck to you and your pilot group with your negotiations. As negative as I am with regard to the flying business in this country, I sincerely hope you set a new standard in pilot wages by negotiating a fair and reasonable payscale for all professional pilots suffering at Canadian carriers from coast to coast of all types and sizes, to envy. I have every confidence that pilots under ALPA's guidance, flying an all wide body fleet, will be held to an international standard befitting your operation and not the usual drivel spit out by idiotic airline management of hard times, beyond our control operating costs, reduced margins, high oil prices and just about any other 'excuse' imaginable. These are tough economic times, and blah, blah, blah.

They will undoubtedly counter by pointing out the airline may very well fail. Actually, based on many management egos, that's not a likely scenario as these threats, enlightening statements, whatever you might refer to them as, have been made year after year after year. We're more afraid of the unknown possibilities than they are. In the end, no guts, no glory. If it kills your airline, then moving forward you'll realize the airline was in shaky financial shape anyway and was likely doomed to failure, regardless. What better time to be standing in such a strong bargaining position? Look at the pilot recruiting going on around the world. Have no fear. You have a fallback position and it doesn't include concessions.

Well, while they're paying these unreasonable expenses claimed to be out of their control, maybe they should ponder how these aircraft will make it into the air if the ever rising day to day costs for the 'industry standard' pilot and his family which aren't being met, don't show up to work?

Improving your lot in life will have a knock on effect at every carrier at every level. So, good luck you and your ALPA pilot group.

Willie :ok:

TheCanuck

12th Jun 2010, 11:44

Thanks Willie,

If the company shuts down because of these negotiations, you're right it was on shaky grounds, then better they fail now than later. I'm glad that Alpa gave us this grant to help us out with these negotiations.

cheers

Willie Everlearn

13th Jun 2010, 01:22

I've been around this business for quite awhile and I've seen, heard and known of many pilots who've given numerous concessions, (year after year, negotiation after negotiation) to their employer out of fear their operation may have to shut down if the pilots don't help out.

When you eventually find yourself at a point where it's time to gain back some of what you've given up or lost over time, you're at a crossroad.

A) If you're one of these poor sods, having given up these concessions and given into those appeals, over the course of several years and economic cycles, how would you feel if you gave into yet another appeal and came up short in your compensation package AND the company somehow manages to continue to operate?
Who got the better deal?

B) Now, if you're one of these poor sods, having given up these concessions and given in to these appeals, over the course of several years and economic cycles, how would you feel if you got what you deserved in a compensation package and the company still continues to operate? Who got the better deal?

C) If you're one of these poor sods, having given up these concessions and given into those appeals, over the course of several years and economic cycles, how would you feel if you got what you wanted AND the company at some point down the road has to shut down?
Who got the better deal?

(Rhetorical questions, of course)

Many will watch with curiosity, like kids glued to the window at Baskin-Robbins.

Willie :ok:

clunckdriver

15th Jun 2010, 10:20

Canuck, I dont have any "hard " feelings about your company, and if my pension is indeed greater than your income and you are in the left seat of a widebody, then this is totally wrong! For the life of me I cant understand your apparent pride in this situation, I no longer fly three hundred folks around the world, you do, you should be paid for it, lets hope that the new guts being shown by the pilots at Spirit, Jazz, and Transat marks a begining of a rebuilding pilots status/pay/working conditions around the world, not just in North America. By the way, I number severall Transat pilots anoung my close friends, they share this view, good luck to all of you in this endevour!