RT arriving at a new aerodrome

[screetch]

Hi

i am sitting in front of the RT PPL book and looking up the chapter of where an aircraft is enroute and arriving at an airfield.

What do you really say correctly on a VFR flight. In the book it gives an example:
Manchester Approach, G BGZE
G BGZE Manchester Approach, pass your message
G-ZE is a PA38 Tomahawk from Sleap to
Manchester overhead Whitchurch 2500ft,
QNH 1007, request VFR clearance to the
airfield with Information Alpha.

Now would you not just ask for rejoining instruction?
so on first contact you would say something along
the lines: "G BGZE is 10m inbound from Sleap, request rejoining instruction. "
I am a little bit unsure about this now. I think the book is confusing me from what the instructor taught me.

[R2112]

Depends on a few things. firstly on the airfield and type of ATSU, lets assume this case it´s Gloster approach as thats my home field!
Then if you´ve remained on the Freaquency after departure and just mooched about doing some local flying. In this case the correct call as per my training is
me: Glos app G-xxxx
G-xxx, App pass msg,
App, G-xxxx is overhead x, alt y, QNH zzzz, request rejoin (and include ATIS where appropriate)

If either returning to home after a freaquency change or to a different field, then the procedure should be the full report, i.e.
Gxxx is a (type) from airfield a to airfield airfield b currently overhead X at altitude Y, QNH Z request joining instructions

[reportyourlevel]

"Rejoin" implies that you departed from that aerodrome.

What angle are you looking at this from? If you say "Manchester Approach, GABCD request join" or somesuch, and get a clearance straight from that you'll be very lucky - expect to be asked to pass your message, so you'll end up giving the whole lot then.

From a controller's point of view, I need to know who you are, what you are, where you are, what level you're at, where you're from and what you want to do in order to be able to issue a clearance. Effectively you're filing an abbreviated flight plan ("booking in" if you like) over the RT.

[BackPacker]

The definitive guide for R/T in the UK is CAP 413:

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP413.PDF

Couple of points though:
- When talking to "Approach" you're talking to the person who's job it is to line up the aircraft for landing, but not the person who gives joining instructions/landing clearances. That last bit is typically done by "Tower".

For some VFR arrivals you need to talk to Approach to obtain a crossing clearance, because that's the airspace you're crossing (CTA or TMA). Eventually you end up in the CTR, where you're told to switch to Tower, who will give you circuit instructions and eventually a landing clearance.

On the other hand, if you approach underneath this airspace you typically don't talk to Approach, but go to the Tower direct.

- If you're flying on a flightplan to a controlled airfield, or if you're returning from a local flight or to your home base, they typically have/know your details already so in actual practice you don't pass the full message but just the important points. This works just fine at my local field:

"Rotterdam Tower, PH-ABC overhead Dordrecht 1500 feet with information Z for the Romeo arrival."

The Romeo arrival of course is a standard and published VFR arrival route.

On your exam, your job is to regurgitate whatever is in CAP413. After your exam you're very welcome in the real world.

[mixsfour]

For first call to any type of ATSU you should state what you want, so "Manchester Approach, G-BGZE, join" or "Farnbrough Radar, G-XXXX, basic service"

Whether it's Approach, Information, Radio etc depends on the type of service provided, you will have worked that out in your pre-flight planning. Arriving at a larger airfield you would normally talk to Approach initially then by the time they transfer you to Tower they will often have passed your details - in which case you would be told "Golf Zulu Echo call Tower [frequency] callsign only" If there's an ATIS, that will tell you what additional information to give in your detailed 2nd call, for example Lydd might want you to say "with information Charlie, QNH 1018"

Then when asked to 'pass your message' give the full details as you have written.

Don't abbrevate your callsign until the ground station has abbrevated it first - you don't know there isn't another aircraft on frequency with a similar one.

Edit - further guidance here http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/AviationGuideFinal20090917_LOCKED.pdf

[Flash0710]

probably just try " joining and landing instructions" seems to work...


xxx
f

[AdamFrisch]

It's different everywhere. Inbound, For Landing, Rejoin, Join, Landing Instructions etc.

I like the old For Landing I learned in back in the days. It communicates my intentions in the most clear way, whereas the others are more ambiguous (if landing is your ultimate goal, that is). Never hear it in the UK, but that doesn't mean it's wrong to use.

[Whopity]

i am sitting in front of the RT PPL bookSounds as though this is not CAP 413. The CAP provides answers and examples to most questions but not every situation. Local ATC procedures vary from one airfield to another however the basic rule is quite simple:

Who are you?
Where are you?
and
What to do you want?

If the airfied is "new" as implied in the title, they will need to know where you have come from and where you are going to!

If you took off from there half an hour ago and the aircraft is locally based then they will probably have a good idea!

Now would you not just ask for rejoining instruction?There is no such call!
CAP413:
Walden Tower, G-ABCD, request join
Perhaps the worst call of all but frequently heard is:Request Landing Instructions!

"Slowly retard the throttle and gently raise the nose" but as a pilot you should know that! Any pilot who needs landing instructions really should not be there.

A useful new Doc (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/AviationGuideFinal20090917_LOCKED.pdf)

[screetch]

lol I love the landing instruction joke.. this is really just funny in a way.

I am just looking at:
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/AviationGuideFinal20090917_LOCKED.pdf
which seems rather new. What is the purpose of this supplement? There are many repeats in the two books.

Have you guys heard: "G-ZE is a PA38 Tomahawk from Sleap to
Manchester overhead Whitchurch 2500ft,
QNH 1007, request VFR clearance to the
airfield with Information Alpha."
anywhere before?

I have been to Gloster as well but I wasnt too sure what I said at the time.
So when you enroute to Gloster and coming from a different airfield and plan to land at gloster.

You could be very far away and just want a service from them. However when you pass your message do you just ask for the service knowing your ultimate goal is still to land at the airfield?

Or do you Introduce yourself to the ATSU and with callsign+ "request join" on the very first initial call to a new airfield? When asked to pass your message you request a standart overhead join or direct join if possible.

Do you then just report that you have the airport insight and automatically fly to the overhead?

[BackPacker]

My understanding was to always call Approach first, if the frequency exists (unless published otherwise).

I might be wrong, but my understanding is that you need to call the airspace owner of the airspace you're travelling through. For a CTA/TMA that would normally be "Approach", for a CTR that would be "Tower".

Since everybody is mentioning Manchester, I just checked the (2007) AFE flight guide and the (2009) Jepp maps I have here. I can't find any indication in those two publications to call Approach first, before calling Tower. Except when you want to fly from/to Woodford or Haydock park, in which case the initial frequency as mentioned on the map is an Approach frequency.

But if I look at the (2007) ICAO chart, there's a little "135.0" next to the MAN CTR D text. Suggesting that that's the initial frequency to call. And that's of course Manchester Approach.

Oh well, Manchester is PPR anyway so that would in this case be sorted out during the phone call. And if you call up on the wrong frequency you'll be told so immediately and transferred to the proper frequency anyway.

But my gut feeling is that Manchester is the odd duck out here, with a CTR that's being served by both an "Approach" (135.0) and two "Tower" (118.625/119.4) frequencies. Or Mr. Jeppessen made a mistake here and should have mentioned the Approach frequency instead of 118.625 like they do now.

Anybody from Manchester who knows the particulars?

[screetch]

Anybody from Manchester who knows the particulars?

--> I have changed the example to Gloster now :)

[Whopity]

Screetch I recall an RAF aircraft being asked for its type:

The reply:

Andover over Dover Over!

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Sat in a Class D CTR, Manch isn't a good example for an "abreviated" join. You would need Approach to issue a VFR/SVFR clearance long before you were anywhere near to talking to Tower. That would need your Ident-Type-From-At/Abeam-Level/Alt-To speech. Staverton, of course, sits nicely outside Controlled airspace.

[Captain Smithy]

Much depends on local procedures. Airfield within a Class D will usually have entry/exit lanes, typically (though not always) aligned with VRPs, meaning you will need to request a VFR arrival via that entry lane. Usually done when in contact with Approach/Radar, once entered into the zone you are handed to tower.

If it's OCAS but controlled then you would call the tower, request airfield information and joining instructions.

If uncontrolled you just request airfield information and state your intentions.

If there's an ATIS it's worth listening to that first before you call Approach, that way you can say you have information x.

Smithy

[screetch]

If you are enroute to several airfields with a landing each time and you need to state your intentions do you than just mention "enroute from Oxford to Gloster" and leave out the airfield that will follow on the next leg after your first stop?

So for Gloster it is not necessary to know where you will head off to next.

Eventuelly you are wise to book in by telephone in all airfields anyway with an approx ETA right?

[Captain Smithy]

Yes, you only need to tell them that you are inbound to them. Then when you are booking out to leave, you tell them where you are going.

When phoning for PPR the operator will ask you for your ETA.

Smithy

[1800ed]

In that example, note the 'Have information Alpha' bit. That means that you've gone on to the ATIS and got arrival information alpha, which will tell you all sorts of useful things.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Sometimes saying nothing at all works:

"Xxx information, G-ABCD"

"G-ABCD runway in use xx"

End of conversation.

[1800ed]

Monitoring the frequency for a minute or so also works if you're arriving at an AGR or an AFIS airfield. You can listen for the info and then just say:

G-ABCD at Some VRP for Overhead Join Runway XX QFE XXXX

Tends to help if you're arriving when it's busy!

[screetch]

well I will give it a go on Saturday and let you guys know what worked best. In the end it is not a big deal and I am sure you can see it in different ways and still get the necessary information. In the end ATC will let you know if you missed anything..

[what next]

Hello!

G-ABCD at Some VRP for Overhead Join Runway XX QFE XXXX

And what exactly is so wrong about sticking to standard ICAO phraseology that everybody has to invent his/her own radio procedures?

I quote from ICAO DOC 4444 :

3.4.14 Entering an aerodrome traffic circuit: *a) [aircraft type] (position) (level) FOR LANDING;

Everywhere in the world the controller will understand your intentions and supply you the relevant information. At exactly the right time.

Regards, Max

[screetch]

i think the CAA has its slightly own RT.

it says in the CAP413 book:
XXX Approach (orYYY Tower) G-DCDN, Request join

or do you say:
XXX Approach (orYYY Tower) G-DCDN, Request joining instructions?

[fuzzy6988]

And what exactly is so wrong about sticking to standard ICAO phraseology that everybody has to invent his/her own radio procedures?

Many countries have filed differences to better suit their local environment. The US, the UK and Russia have the greatest number of differences from ICAO. I'm all up for international standardisation in my opinion.

[jez d]

For the humble air/ground radio service, Gertrude and 1800 have it right.

In my yoof I spent many an hour sat at the controls of a very busy air/ground radio, listening to 5-minute soliloquies from inbound traffic. At weekends I would regularly be working more than 10 aircraft at a time, most of whom wanted to tell me their inside leg measurement and what they had for breakfast.

More often than not, inbound or transiting traffic would switch to our frequency and start transmitting without first having the courtesy to listen out for other traffic.

In my time I had two Mayday calls stamped on by other traffic and many other instances of stuck PTT switches jamming the frequency.

Flying legend and all-round gentleman Neville Duke, and his delightful wife Mary, used to fly in for lunch most Sundays:

"Good morning, fox-whisky inbound"

"Roger, fox-whisky, 26 right, QFE 994"

"Roger, fox-whisky"

"Fox-whisky final, number two"

"Roger, surface wind 210 10 knots"

"Roger"

Compare with the average PPL holder we used to get round our parts:

"*-* radio this is GOLF-ALPHA-BRAVO-CHARLIE-DELTA, six dayseemal one fife nautical miles (GPS owner, obviously), north, north east of airfield at two thousand 700 feet. Request joining instructions for a full stop landing. Request traffic information. Request right hand base join, Request clearance to taxi to fuel pump on landing, etc, ad nauseum..."

I'm sure confidence (and experience, obviously) has a big impact on radio usage, but the adage 'less is more' is most relevant when making initial calls to air/ground radio.

Remember, air/ground radio only provides basic airfield information - runway in use, pressure, wind speed and direction - that's about it. They cannot give you clearance, or traffic information. The Mark I eyeball is what you should rely on.

Regards, jez

[R2112]

well I will give it a go on Saturday and let you guys know what worked best. In the end it is not a big deal and I am sure you can see it in different ways and still get the necessary information. In the end ATC will let you know if you missed anything.
Actally mate, it is quite a big deal! You need to know the type of ATSU you are working as that will tell you what type of service they will give you, and also what information they require to do so. Also it will pay to have an idea of how busy the particular field is likely to be, so as to ascertain how busy the guy on the other end will be. Then you need to consider how to gather the information you need, i.e. take a minute or two to listen out and build a picture, check and copy down the ATIS, once or twice I´ve listened to a lovely consice ATIS broadcast only to stumble over my opening RT when I forgot the ATIS designator AND the pressure!
Then when thats all done, you need to compose your message mentally before launching into a 3 minute speel with a weeks supply of Umms and Errs.
Like has been said before, keep it simple!
I was tought to call up a new station with
(Station Name) G-XXX......
then just wait for them to ask you to pass your message. gives the folks in the App room/Twr/sat infront of the radio&filling in aircraft movements & taking money (Shobdon!) a chance to prepare themselves/get to the radio!
after that follow the relevant RT procedure for the ATSU you are working. I´m assuming you are still training, so you instructor should be able to go into the innermost workings of the system for you.
Best of luck! Let us know how it all goes

[atceng]

Returning from gentle but mildly turbulent navex, just a bit preoccupied avoiding two thousand foot plus masts and a gas vent at least one of which wasn't on my chart but turned out to be right on my track. Being held well below permitted alt by adjacent CTR, and 'mention' of keeping lookout for fastjets. Goodbye madam,nice to have been controlled by you.
That'll teach me not to make courtesy call in case I pop up on their radar.
Change to friendly home 'drome freq and relax a bit.

Pu/t : xxx radio G-ABCD overhead AAA at 2000ft Returning to the field.
(forgot to ask for airport information)

ATSO :G-CD, xxx radio, Roger.

Pu/t: Pause G-CD. Could you confirm the runway in use?

ATSO : G-CD, I'm not allowed to confirm anything.

Pu/t : G-CD, Could you give me a clue,which way is the windsock pointing?

ATSO : G-CD, Down

Pu/t :xxxxx Radio,G-ABCD request airport information for overhead rejoin

ATSO : G-CD, Runway in use xx, wind ...........traffic, etc.

Pu/t : I'm going to cream that b when I get down,did I press the mike button?

atceng.

[Sir Herbert Gussett]

When flying for leisure I've always said callsign and what I'm requesting. Don't know why others don't.... "Manchester Approach, G-ABCD, request basic service"

I believe this helps controllers as well - though I'm not one of them nutters so don't count me on it! If you hear 'request basic service', at that point can you make your first marking on the strip? Rather than nothing...?

[screetch]

lol omg this is funny: windsock is pointing down. At least this put a smile on my face before I drive up to the airfield. Just the right way to start the day.

I will let you know how it went.. and hopefully I will remember how the RT conversation went.

[bookworm]

I might be wrong, but my understanding is that you need to call the airspace owner of the airspace you're travelling through. For a CTA/TMA that would normally be "Approach", for a CTR that would be "Tower".

Convention differs between the UK and Benelux/Germany. In the UK, VFR arrivals are expected to contact the approach frequency first if it exists (even outside controlled airspace). In the NL and Germany, contact is made with the tower, and approach is often not involved at all for VFR flights.

I learned that after a couple of exchanges with approach controllers in the NL and Germany 20 years ago. The exchanges were polite and helpful, but the controller clearly thought "what on earth is this guy thinking?!"

[bookworm]

Flying legend and all-round gentleman Neville Duke, and his delightful wife Mary, used to fly in for lunch most Sundays:

That's all very well, but you probably already knew his aircraft type and his point of departure. And other aircraft could benefit from knowing the direction from which he's joining, even if it's not important to you. I agree with your sentiment, that unnecessary RT is to be avoided, but there is a balance to be struck.

[RatherBeFlying]

First of all: Get ATIS if provided, then Listen and Wait for end of conversation -- this may require patience as others tell life story:rolleyes:

Following the less is more rule:

xyz twr, Cessna FABC with Xray
Cessna abc, xyz twr
Cessna abc somespot 4.5 Northbound
Cessna abc, altimeter 29.99, report leaving the zone.
29.99 abc
.
.
.
xyz twr, Cessna abc departing zone Northbound
Cessna abc, cleared enroute, [have a good day]
[And a good day to you]

I leave initiative for pleasantries or chat to the twr as their workload permits.

[screetch]

right after my flight to gloster the RT was infact different to what we said before.

I called them @Gloster approach, this is G XXX inbound, request joining instructions with information Echo

App: G XXX, report when 3 miles out.

so when i was rought 3 miles out I called them again

G XXX, 3 miles out with airfield in sight.

App: G XXX contact tower on 1xx.xx

So i contacted tower they just advised me on the runway in use and asked me to position for an overhead join.

[fuzzy6988]

Convention differs between the UK and Benelux/Germany. In the UK, VFR arrivals are expected to contact the approach frequency first if it exists (even outside controlled airspace). In the NL and Germany, contact is made with the tower, and approach is often not involved at all for VFR flights.

Interesting. And here is the standard American (and probably ICAO) way for the entire flight between two big airports:

Check ATIS --> Clearance [for IFR] --> Ground --> Tower --> Departure --> Center [for IFR] --> Check ATIS --> Approach --> Tower --> Ground

[172driver]

Check ATIS --> Clearance [for IFR] --> Ground --> Tower --> Departure --> Center [for IFR] --> Check ATIS --> Approach --> Tower --> Ground

Same in Spain and - at least in my experience - in Germany/Austria. Only thing is that at very busy Spanish airports you go to Clearance also for VFR, if so broadcast on the ATIS. Also applies (sometimes) for Center, although usually they don't get involved with VFR.