RT arriving at a new aerodrome
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RT arriving at a new aerodrome
Hi
i am sitting in front of the RT PPL book and looking up the chapter of where an aircraft is enroute and arriving at an airfield.
What do you really say correctly on a VFR flight. In the book it gives an example:
Manchester Approach, G BGZE
G BGZE Manchester Approach, pass your message
G-ZE is a PA38 Tomahawk from Sleap to
Manchester overhead Whitchurch 2500ft,
QNH 1007, request VFR clearance to the
airfield with Information Alpha.
Now would you not just ask for rejoining instruction?
so on first contact you would say something along
the lines: "G BGZE is 10m inbound from Sleap, request rejoining instruction. "
I am a little bit unsure about this now. I think the book is confusing me from what the instructor taught me.
i am sitting in front of the RT PPL book and looking up the chapter of where an aircraft is enroute and arriving at an airfield.
What do you really say correctly on a VFR flight. In the book it gives an example:
Manchester Approach, G BGZE
G BGZE Manchester Approach, pass your message
G-ZE is a PA38 Tomahawk from Sleap to
Manchester overhead Whitchurch 2500ft,
QNH 1007, request VFR clearance to the
airfield with Information Alpha.
Now would you not just ask for rejoining instruction?
so on first contact you would say something along
the lines: "G BGZE is 10m inbound from Sleap, request rejoining instruction. "
I am a little bit unsure about this now. I think the book is confusing me from what the instructor taught me.
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Depends on a few things. firstly on the airfield and type of ATSU, lets assume this case it´s Gloster approach as thats my home field!
Then if you´ve remained on the Freaquency after departure and just mooched about doing some local flying. In this case the correct call as per my training is
me: Glos app G-xxxx
G-xxx, App pass msg,
App, G-xxxx is overhead x, alt y, QNH zzzz, request rejoin (and include ATIS where appropriate)
If either returning to home after a freaquency change or to a different field, then the procedure should be the full report, i.e.
Gxxx is a (type) from airfield a to airfield airfield b currently overhead X at altitude Y, QNH Z request joining instructions
Then if you´ve remained on the Freaquency after departure and just mooched about doing some local flying. In this case the correct call as per my training is
me: Glos app G-xxxx
G-xxx, App pass msg,
App, G-xxxx is overhead x, alt y, QNH zzzz, request rejoin (and include ATIS where appropriate)
If either returning to home after a freaquency change or to a different field, then the procedure should be the full report, i.e.
Gxxx is a (type) from airfield a to airfield airfield b currently overhead X at altitude Y, QNH Z request joining instructions
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"Rejoin" implies that you departed from that aerodrome.
What angle are you looking at this from? If you say "Manchester Approach, GABCD request join" or somesuch, and get a clearance straight from that you'll be very lucky - expect to be asked to pass your message, so you'll end up giving the whole lot then.
From a controller's point of view, I need to know who you are, what you are, where you are, what level you're at, where you're from and what you want to do in order to be able to issue a clearance. Effectively you're filing an abbreviated flight plan ("booking in" if you like) over the RT.
What angle are you looking at this from? If you say "Manchester Approach, GABCD request join" or somesuch, and get a clearance straight from that you'll be very lucky - expect to be asked to pass your message, so you'll end up giving the whole lot then.
From a controller's point of view, I need to know who you are, what you are, where you are, what level you're at, where you're from and what you want to do in order to be able to issue a clearance. Effectively you're filing an abbreviated flight plan ("booking in" if you like) over the RT.
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The definitive guide for R/T in the UK is CAP 413:
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP413.PDF
Couple of points though:
- When talking to "Approach" you're talking to the person who's job it is to line up the aircraft for landing, but not the person who gives joining instructions/landing clearances. That last bit is typically done by "Tower".
For some VFR arrivals you need to talk to Approach to obtain a crossing clearance, because that's the airspace you're crossing (CTA or TMA). Eventually you end up in the CTR, where you're told to switch to Tower, who will give you circuit instructions and eventually a landing clearance.
On the other hand, if you approach underneath this airspace you typically don't talk to Approach, but go to the Tower direct.
- If you're flying on a flightplan to a controlled airfield, or if you're returning from a local flight or to your home base, they typically have/know your details already so in actual practice you don't pass the full message but just the important points. This works just fine at my local field:
"Rotterdam Tower, PH-ABC overhead Dordrecht 1500 feet with information Z for the Romeo arrival."
The Romeo arrival of course is a standard and published VFR arrival route.
On your exam, your job is to regurgitate whatever is in CAP413. After your exam you're very welcome in the real world.
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP413.PDF
Couple of points though:
- When talking to "Approach" you're talking to the person who's job it is to line up the aircraft for landing, but not the person who gives joining instructions/landing clearances. That last bit is typically done by "Tower".
For some VFR arrivals you need to talk to Approach to obtain a crossing clearance, because that's the airspace you're crossing (CTA or TMA). Eventually you end up in the CTR, where you're told to switch to Tower, who will give you circuit instructions and eventually a landing clearance.
On the other hand, if you approach underneath this airspace you typically don't talk to Approach, but go to the Tower direct.
- If you're flying on a flightplan to a controlled airfield, or if you're returning from a local flight or to your home base, they typically have/know your details already so in actual practice you don't pass the full message but just the important points. This works just fine at my local field:
"Rotterdam Tower, PH-ABC overhead Dordrecht 1500 feet with information Z for the Romeo arrival."
The Romeo arrival of course is a standard and published VFR arrival route.
On your exam, your job is to regurgitate whatever is in CAP413. After your exam you're very welcome in the real world.
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For first call to any type of ATSU you should state what you want, so "Manchester Approach, G-BGZE, join" or "Farnbrough Radar, G-XXXX, basic service"
Whether it's Approach, Information, Radio etc depends on the type of service provided, you will have worked that out in your pre-flight planning. Arriving at a larger airfield you would normally talk to Approach initially then by the time they transfer you to Tower they will often have passed your details - in which case you would be told "Golf Zulu Echo call Tower [frequency] callsign only" If there's an ATIS, that will tell you what additional information to give in your detailed 2nd call, for example Lydd might want you to say "with information Charlie, QNH 1018"
Then when asked to 'pass your message' give the full details as you have written.
Don't abbrevate your callsign until the ground station has abbrevated it first - you don't know there isn't another aircraft on frequency with a similar one.
Edit - further guidance here http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/Aviatio...917_LOCKED.pdf
Whether it's Approach, Information, Radio etc depends on the type of service provided, you will have worked that out in your pre-flight planning. Arriving at a larger airfield you would normally talk to Approach initially then by the time they transfer you to Tower they will often have passed your details - in which case you would be told "Golf Zulu Echo call Tower [frequency] callsign only" If there's an ATIS, that will tell you what additional information to give in your detailed 2nd call, for example Lydd might want you to say "with information Charlie, QNH 1018"
Then when asked to 'pass your message' give the full details as you have written.
Don't abbrevate your callsign until the ground station has abbrevated it first - you don't know there isn't another aircraft on frequency with a similar one.
Edit - further guidance here http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/Aviatio...917_LOCKED.pdf
Last edited by mixsfour; 20th May 2010 at 22:16.
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It's different everywhere. Inbound, For Landing, Rejoin, Join, Landing Instructions etc.
I like the old For Landing I learned in back in the days. It communicates my intentions in the most clear way, whereas the others are more ambiguous (if landing is your ultimate goal, that is). Never hear it in the UK, but that doesn't mean it's wrong to use.
I like the old For Landing I learned in back in the days. It communicates my intentions in the most clear way, whereas the others are more ambiguous (if landing is your ultimate goal, that is). Never hear it in the UK, but that doesn't mean it's wrong to use.
i am sitting in front of the RT PPL book
Who are you?
Where are you?
and
What to do you want?
If the airfied is "new" as implied in the title, they will need to know where you have come from and where you are going to!
If you took off from there half an hour ago and the aircraft is locally based then they will probably have a good idea!
Now would you not just ask for rejoining instruction?
CAP413:
Walden Tower, G-ABCD, request join
Request Landing Instructions!
A useful new Doc
Last edited by Whopity; 21st May 2010 at 07:55.
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lol I love the landing instruction joke.. this is really just funny in a way.
I am just looking at:
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/Aviatio...917_LOCKED.pdf
which seems rather new. What is the purpose of this supplement? There are many repeats in the two books.
Have you guys heard: "G-ZE is a PA38 Tomahawk from Sleap to
Manchester overhead Whitchurch 2500ft,
QNH 1007, request VFR clearance to the
airfield with Information Alpha."
anywhere before?
I have been to Gloster as well but I wasnt too sure what I said at the time.
So when you enroute to Gloster and coming from a different airfield and plan to land at gloster.
You could be very far away and just want a service from them. However when you pass your message do you just ask for the service knowing your ultimate goal is still to land at the airfield?
Or do you Introduce yourself to the ATSU and with callsign+ "request join" on the very first initial call to a new airfield? When asked to pass your message you request a standart overhead join or direct join if possible.
Do you then just report that you have the airport insight and automatically fly to the overhead?
I am just looking at:
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/Aviatio...917_LOCKED.pdf
which seems rather new. What is the purpose of this supplement? There are many repeats in the two books.
Have you guys heard: "G-ZE is a PA38 Tomahawk from Sleap to
Manchester overhead Whitchurch 2500ft,
QNH 1007, request VFR clearance to the
airfield with Information Alpha."
anywhere before?
I have been to Gloster as well but I wasnt too sure what I said at the time.
So when you enroute to Gloster and coming from a different airfield and plan to land at gloster.
You could be very far away and just want a service from them. However when you pass your message do you just ask for the service knowing your ultimate goal is still to land at the airfield?
Or do you Introduce yourself to the ATSU and with callsign+ "request join" on the very first initial call to a new airfield? When asked to pass your message you request a standart overhead join or direct join if possible.
Do you then just report that you have the airport insight and automatically fly to the overhead?
Last edited by screetch; 21st May 2010 at 08:35.
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My understanding was to always call Approach first, if the frequency exists (unless published otherwise).
Since everybody is mentioning Manchester, I just checked the (2007) AFE flight guide and the (2009) Jepp maps I have here. I can't find any indication in those two publications to call Approach first, before calling Tower. Except when you want to fly from/to Woodford or Haydock park, in which case the initial frequency as mentioned on the map is an Approach frequency.
But if I look at the (2007) ICAO chart, there's a little "135.0" next to the MAN CTR D text. Suggesting that that's the initial frequency to call. And that's of course Manchester Approach.
Oh well, Manchester is PPR anyway so that would in this case be sorted out during the phone call. And if you call up on the wrong frequency you'll be told so immediately and transferred to the proper frequency anyway.
But my gut feeling is that Manchester is the odd duck out here, with a CTR that's being served by both an "Approach" (135.0) and two "Tower" (118.625/119.4) frequencies. Or Mr. Jeppessen made a mistake here and should have mentioned the Approach frequency instead of 118.625 like they do now.
Anybody from Manchester who knows the particulars?
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Sat in a Class D CTR, Manch isn't a good example for an "abreviated" join. You would need Approach to issue a VFR/SVFR clearance long before you were anywhere near to talking to Tower. That would need your Ident-Type-From-At/Abeam-Level/Alt-To speech. Staverton, of course, sits nicely outside Controlled airspace.
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Much depends on local procedures. Airfield within a Class D will usually have entry/exit lanes, typically (though not always) aligned with VRPs, meaning you will need to request a VFR arrival via that entry lane. Usually done when in contact with Approach/Radar, once entered into the zone you are handed to tower.
If it's OCAS but controlled then you would call the tower, request airfield information and joining instructions.
If uncontrolled you just request airfield information and state your intentions.
If there's an ATIS it's worth listening to that first before you call Approach, that way you can say you have information x.
Smithy
If it's OCAS but controlled then you would call the tower, request airfield information and joining instructions.
If uncontrolled you just request airfield information and state your intentions.
If there's an ATIS it's worth listening to that first before you call Approach, that way you can say you have information x.
Smithy
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If you are enroute to several airfields with a landing each time and you need to state your intentions do you than just mention "enroute from Oxford to Gloster" and leave out the airfield that will follow on the next leg after your first stop?
So for Gloster it is not necessary to know where you will head off to next.
Eventuelly you are wise to book in by telephone in all airfields anyway with an approx ETA right?
So for Gloster it is not necessary to know where you will head off to next.
Eventuelly you are wise to book in by telephone in all airfields anyway with an approx ETA right?
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Yes, you only need to tell them that you are inbound to them. Then when you are booking out to leave, you tell them where you are going.
When phoning for PPR the operator will ask you for your ETA.
Smithy
When phoning for PPR the operator will ask you for your ETA.
Smithy
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In that example, note the 'Have information Alpha' bit. That means that you've gone on to the ATIS and got arrival information alpha, which will tell you all sorts of useful things.
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Monitoring the frequency for a minute or so also works if you're arriving at an AGR or an AFIS airfield. You can listen for the info and then just say:
G-ABCD at Some VRP for Overhead Join Runway XX QFE XXXX
Tends to help if you're arriving when it's busy!
G-ABCD at Some VRP for Overhead Join Runway XX QFE XXXX
Tends to help if you're arriving when it's busy!
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well I will give it a go on Saturday and let you guys know what worked best. In the end it is not a big deal and I am sure you can see it in different ways and still get the necessary information. In the end ATC will let you know if you missed anything..