To Swissair or not to Swissair?

[bugg smasher]

What's going on here, SR, is you or is you ain't?

Press Release
SOURCE: Swissair
Swissair Starts Y2002 Off on the Right Foot
MELVILLE, N.Y., Jan. 4 /PRNewswire/ -- With the New Year comes good news for Swissair with nearly a 6 percentage point increase in the seat booked factor for January compared to the previous year, according to the airline's latest market research.

The latest transatlantic seat booked factor for this month is at 76 percent, compared to last year's January of 70 percent.

"We have our customers to thank for our continued success,'' said Marcel Biedermann adding that seat load factors for the last two weeks of December averaged 82 percent, compared to the 75 percent average for the same period last year.

While Y2001 brought difficult challenges to the entire airline industry, Swissair with help from private investors and the Swiss government continued to fly. At this time, the amalgamation of Swissair and Crossair, a leading European regional carrier based in Basel, is taking place. As a result, a new company led by Crossair is being built upon the award-winning services of the two airlines. Passengers can expect a seamless transition as Swissair tickets will be accepted by Crossair after March 31, 2002 and transatlantic service will remain.

Swissair is a partner in the AAdvantage, Midwest Express Airlines and US Airways frequent flyer programs offering direct service to Switzerland from the following North American gateways: Boston, Chicago, New York, Newark, Miami, Los Angeles, Washington and Montreal. For the new winter timetable, and reservations click onto <a href="http://www.swissair.com" target="_blank">http://www.swissair.com</a> or call 1-800-221-4750.

SOURCE: Swissair

[Bono Vox]

why is the previous post timed @ 1952z? i posted at 1658 elsewhere and this topic was above it in the forum? <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

[efcop]

SR is on life support and the plug will be pulled march 31 2002. thereafter LX will continue as Swiss flag carrier probably with a new name

[Hold at Saffa]

Efcop is partly correct.
Commercial responsibility for the 'Swissair' operation has been Crossair's since midnight October 28. The aircraft continue operating to select destinations, with Ex-SR crews receiving 35% pay less than they did before midnight 28.10

A new name will be decided for this new venture, based broadly on an expanded Crossair culture and financial dynamic, at a board meeting currently scheduled for the middle of January 2002.

Specific details of the venture can be found here.

<a href="http://www.project-phoenix.ch/en/project/businessplan.html" target="_blank">The New Swiss Airline</a>

[atr42]

It's certainly true that Swissair planes are 'full' again because they slashed their ticket prices. But all airlines can fly and fill their planes with money from citizens. But Crossair (the future unique swiss airline) will not be able to make low fares with a high cost struture. It is simply an anti-business rule !

The truth is that the last poll shows that a majority (53%) of swiss people didn't agree with the government aid to Swissair.

End of March there will be only one airline : Crossair. This airline work force will count a large number of ex-Swissair employees. It will create big culutral and organisational changes. Perhaps impossible to override it ! I think that new Crossair is making a big mistake because it underestimates that problem.

The way to a viable Crossair is very long and I personally think that Crossair or whatever the future name of the airline, will disappear in 2 or 3 years.

[Hold at Saffa]

ATR42
[quote]This airline work force will count a large number of ex-Swissair employees. It will create big culutral and organisational changes. Perhaps impossible to override it ! <hr></blockquote>
There are several clear risks associated with the business plan linked to above your post, and the area you highlight is definately one of them. I agree with you completely that there is a clear cultural discordancy between what was Swissair and what is Crossair, but this is being worked on at many levels. There is an enormous amount of goodwill at Crossair which can easily accomodate our Ex-Swissair colleagues. The joint focus should be on the successfull development of the new Swiss Airline venture, whether it be called Crossair or something else entirely. This can ONLY be achieved if we ALL work together, ingoring past animosities and looking to the future together.

Combined, we'll be unbeatable.

[Few Cloudy]

Glad you find that too Saffa.

[FrappsZello]

ATR, Hold at Saffa says that commercial responsibility for Swissair operations has been the responsibility of Crossair since the 28th of October. in this case it is not Swissair who has slashed prices but rather Crossair. I would also say that your time frame for the cessation of the names, Swissair and Crossair is likely to be 3 months rather than 2-3 years.

Saffa you are spot in in stating that only a concerted effort from both parties is likely to lead to success. While management are talking sense, the two unions seem to be no nearer working together than 2 months ago. After the appalling comments from Aeropers last October, they now appear to want to find common ground. CCP on the other hand are now playing hard to get! Tit for tat is childish and both these organisations need to get their act together. Too much money has been spent and too many jobs have been lost for this endeavour to go down the tubes at this stage. If it does, there will be no winners, only losers.

[efcop]

Frapps,
fact is that aeropers simply is not sending any signals to cooperate. they still seem to waiting for a knight in shining armour with hard cash in his saddlebags to save a dead company. thus they communicate their lack of interest in bilateral talks and cancelled most meetings with ccp. there is no question of tit for tat on the part of ccp. they never refused to talk to aeropers at any time.

you are spot on: we are running out of time and killing the project is no longer an option however a downsizing is still in the realm of the possible or probable, take your pick

[Hold at Saffa]

Hello Frappszello,

[quote]the two unions seem to be no nearer working together than 2 months ago. <hr></blockquote>
You are spot on here, Frapps.
I believe the prime risk to the venture is unions.

[quote]I would also say that your time frame for the cessation of the names, Swissair and Crossair is likely to be 3 months rather than 2-3 years. <hr></blockquote>
Lets see now, in order to lose CHF 4.25 Billion in three months you'd need to burn CHF 47,222,000.00 per day. Not even the Belgians could lose money that fast! However, Frapps, based on current industrial trends, I think you're right to have a gloomy outlook, at the moment. <img src="frown.gif" border="0">
[quote]they still seem to waiting for a knight in shining armour with hard cash in his saddlebags to save a dead company. <hr></blockquote>
Hello efcop, and happy new year to you.

Aeropers might be evil, malicious, vengeful, greedy, blackhearted, destructive, immoral, offensive and corrupt, but they ain't stupid!

They are playing the waiting game. When the 600-700 Ex-Sr pilots, with over 90% Aeropers membership are embraced within the Crossair pilot corps, they will outnumber and therefore outvote the current CCP membership with its vastly lower membership rate than at SR. Ergo, all Aeropers have to do is make all the right noises, spin their activities in such a way as to appear to be cooperative and conciliatory, wait until pilot corps consolidation and *hey presto!*, Aeropers rules the roost, yet again.........sigh.

Truly enlightened management would outlaw both CCP and Aeropers and start again from scratch. We're supposed to be mature, educated professionals, so how about this as a suggestion.

Welcome to the Hold at Saffa Airline Pilots Association (HASAPA)!
I will personally offer to represent all pilots currently employed by Crossair, whether they fly SR or LX airplanes. I offer to do this completely free of charge. Membership fees ZERO.
I will canvas the pilot corps to determine what the majority of us want, and present a fair and reasonable package to management as the sole representative of 100% of the pilots, since thats what they seem to want. Management will accept or reject our fair and reasonable demands, no negotiations entered into.
If they reject, I will immediately disolve the HASAPA and let Aeropers do what Aeropers does, and watch with tears in silence while my beloved company circles the drain.

Suggestions for HASAPA governing council:
Board members efcop, Frappzello, Few Cloudy

Officer In Charge witty retorts and general mischief making...Cisco Kid

Officer in Charge rudeness and irrelevance...126.9

Officer in Charge toecutting, kneecapping and nastiness-in-general...Hooking Fell

Officer in Charge courage in the face of adversity...The Guv'nor (ref: Jetblast!)

And if none of that grabs you, we could all resign our union memberships and manage our OWN relationship with our employer like grown-up reasonable prfessionals in the year 2002. It's more decent, more honest, and MUCH better value for money. Oh, and we might just have a thriving, profitable, successful Swiss Airline in the end, after all.

[Lime]

Good morning,

latest Aeropers Press-Release:

unfortunately only in German.


"SWISSAIRLINES

DIE SWISSAIR PILOTEN LEGEN IHRE VISION

DER NEUEN INTERKONTINENTALEN SCHWEIZER FLUGGESELLSCHAFT VOR



EINE NEUE FLUGGESELLSCHAFT FÜR DIE SCHWEIZ

IN DIE ZUKUNFT GERICHTET



Trotz der bereits gefällten Entscheide,der getroffenen Abkom-

men und dem bereits investierten Kapital sind die Swissair Pilo-

ten der Meinung,dass über wichtige Aspekte der neuen Flugge-

sellschaft noch zu wenig gesprochen worden ist.Die aktuelle

Diskussion bezieht sich zu stark auf die Vergangenheit und die

unmittelbare Gegenwart beider Fluggesellschaften während sich

der Blick nun dringend in die Zukunft richten muss um langfri-

stig erfolgreiche Lösungen erarbeiten zu können.

Die neue Fluggesellschaft,die sich wohl die Mehrheit der

Schweizerinnen und Schweizer sowie ihre Volksvertreter wün-

schen,muss nicht nur auf einem gesicherten Businessplan son-

dern auch auf einer klaren Vision der künftigen Identität der

neuen Gesellschaft basieren.

Es bleiben nur noch gerade drei Monate bis zum Start der neuen

Firma und es ist noch kein Konzept,keine Vision kommuniziert

worden,die geeignet wäre um bei unseren künftigen Kunden

Vertrauen zu wecken und unsere Kolleginnen und Kollegen

entsprechend zu motivieren.

Die Swissairpiloten legen deshalb hier ihre Vision der künftigen

Airline vor,weil sie ihre Verantwortung wahrnehmen möchten

und ihnen der Erfolg der neuen Airline am Herzen liegt.Sie hof-

fen dass dieser konstruktive Beitrag eine breitestmögliche Zu-

stimmung finden mag.



DIE SICHERHEIT IM ZENTRUM DES FLUGBETRIEBS



Die Flugsicherheit ist der zentraler Punkt jeder Fluggesellschaft.

Sie hat jedoch zwei Schwachpunkte:Sie ist nicht sichtbar und

sehr kostspielig.Zudem verlangt sie grösste Genauigkeit und

erträgt nicht die geringste Nachlässigkeit.Sie muss ständig im

Mittelpunkt des Denkens einer Fluggesellschaft stehen und die

Basis für sämtliche Entscheidungen sein.Sicherheit ist immer

ein Prozess und nie ein gesichertes Gut.Die jüngsten tragischen

Ereignisse zeigen,wie schnell Sicherheitsfragen die Zukunft

eines ganzen Flugprojektes enorm belasten können.

Im Luftverkehr ist Swissair seit Jahrzehnten anerkannte Führerin

im Bereich der Sicherheit.Die Gesellschaft ist auf diesem Gebiet

bekannt für eine überdurchschnittliche Glaubwürdigkeit zwi-

schen Absicht und effektiver Umsetzung.Die Swissair-Piloten

sind der Ansicht,dass die maximale Sicherheit auf folgenden

vier Säulen beruht:Systeme,Selektion und Ausbildung sowie

seriöse Arbeitsweise.



DIE WESENTLICHEN SICHERHEITSSYSTEME



Da die Sicherheit von Menschen abhängt,werden diese von

mordernsten technischen Systemen unterstützt,die laufend

verbessert werden.Die Swissair Piloten erachten drei Si-

cherheits-Systeme als Minimalausrüstung für die künftige Airli-

ne :) as Enhanced Ground Proximity Warning System (EGPWS),

das TCAS (Traffic Collision Avoidance System),sowie Rauchmel-

der und Feuerlöschanlagen im Frachtraum .



SELEKTION,AUSBILDUNG UND FIRMENKULTUR



Auf der menschlichen Ebene beginnt Sicherheit mit einem stren-

gen Selektionsprozess.Dieser stellt sicher,dass der anschlie-

ssende langfristige Lern-und Entwicklungsprozess,den eine

normale Pilotenkarriere darstellt,erfolgreich absolviert werden

kann.Neben den fliegerischen Fähigkeiten basiert Flugsicher-

heit auf einem permanenten Training von Notsituationen und

dem ständigen Willen,das Null-Risiko anzustreben.Die Swissair

Piloten sind der Ansicht,dass die bei Swissair über viele Jahre

aufgebauten Massnahmen und Verfahren unbedingt zur Kultur

der neuen Fluggesellschaft gehören müssen.Zum Beispiel fol-

gende:

CRM (Crew Resource Management).Es handelt sich um eine

Arbeitsphilosophie,die auf einem modernen Management von

zwischenmenschlicher Beziehung,Kommunikation und Interak-

tion zwischen den Piloten basiert.Swissair ist in diesem Bereich

vielen renommierten Airlines ein Vorbild.

ADAS (Automatic Data Acquisition System).Dieses System er-

laubt - vereinfacht gesagt - das Aufzeigen von Fehlern und

Tendenzen,die zu einer kritischen Situation hätten führen kön-

nen.Die Daten werden analysiert und anschliessend in Trai-

ningsprogrammen für die ständige Weiterbildung der Besatzun-

gen verwendet.

Anonymes,an den Fachausschuss Flight Safety gerichtetes Mel-

desystem .Ein System,das unter Wahrung der Anonymität be-

troffenen Personen die Meldung von Vorfällen ermöglicht,muss

unter allen Umständen auch in der neuen Airline aufgebaut wer-

den.Es soll verhindern,dass Vorfälle aufgrund von -teilweise

nachvollziehbarer -Sorge sich zu exponieren,verschwiegen

werden.

Vorrang der Sicherheit vor Sparsamkeit .Der Flugkapitän muss

sicher sein,dass er in jedem Fall von seinen Vorgesetzten unter-

stützt wird,wenn er im Interesse der Sicherheit eine Entschei-

dung trifft.Ein Flugkapitän muss eine situationsgerechte Si-

cherheitsmassnahme völlig unbeeinflusst treffen können.

Ermutigung zum Dialog .Sicherheitsprobleme,Unsicherheiten

und Vorschläge in Sachen Sicherheit müssen frei und unabhän-

gig von jeglichem hierarchischen Zwang innerhalb der Flugge-

sellschaft diskutiert werden können.

Ständig am Ball bleiben .Die operationellen und technischen

Verfahren müssen systematisch den neuesten Erkenntnissen

angepasst werden,die über interne oder externe Kanäle an die

Fluggesellschaft gelangen:Von Sachverständigen,Konstrukteu-

ren,Sicherheitsorganen,usw.Es muss eine eigene Sicherheits-

abteilung aufgebaut werden,die diese wichtigen Informationen

zielgerichtet verwalten und umsetzen kann.



DIE KUNDEN IM ZENTRUM DER FLUGGESELLSCHAFT



Wie auch immer die langfristige Strategie der neuen Fluggesell-

schaft in Sachen Allianzen aussieht,sie muss jetzt unbedingt

das Vertrauen ihrer Kunden zurück gewinnen und einen Ausla-

stungsgrad der Flugzeuge sicherstellen,der dem gängigen

Branchendurchschnitt entspricht.In einer solch schwierigen

Marktsituation,in der wir uns zur Zeit im Luftverkehr befinden -

einerseits aus strukturellen aber auch aus konjunkturellen

Gründen - hat die Schweiz erstklassige Trümpfe,,die eingesetzt

werden sollten.

Die Swissair-Piloten sehen drei Schwerpunkte,wie die traditio-

nelle Kundschaft zurück gewonnen und deren Treue wieder ge-

stärkt werden kann:



EIN STARKES WELTWEITES BRANDING



Siebzig Jahre Fluggeschichte und die Stärke des weltweiten

Markennamens Swissair können nicht von einem Tag auf den

anderen aus den Köpfen der Kundschaft verbannt und durch

etwas anderes erstetzt werden.Wie auch immer die rechtliche

Lösung aussehen wird,die neue Marke muss auf jeden Fall si-

cherstellen,dass die neue Fluggesellschaft mit ihrer weltweiten

Kundschaft vom Image der früheren Swissair profitieren kann.

Im Licht der jüngsten Ereignisse bei Crossair,die mit dem Thema

Sicherheit verbunden sind,scheint heute klar geworden zu sein,

dass der Markenname Crossair nur mit einer sehr kostenintensi-

ven PR-Strategie das Erbe von Swissair antreten kann.

Es ist fraglich,ob eine solche Investition letztlich günstiger

kommt als die Marke Swissair mit juristischen Mitteln vor recht-

lichen Risiken zu schützen,denen sie momentan noch ausge-

setzt sein könnte.



EINE TOP-PRODUKT STRATEGIE



In einem Markt,der von Billiganbietern dominiert wird,besteht

der einzige Weg eine wirkliche Vorrangstellung zu erreichen in

einer Exklusiv-oder Luxus-Strategie.Dieser Weg ist typisch

schweizerisch,ja er entspricht dem Image der Schweiz schlecht-

hin.

Glaubwürdigkeit,Qualität,Kreativität und Konstanz sind die

wesentlichen Merkmale eines Top-Produktes,in der Uhrenindu-

strie bis zur Gastronomie,von der Automobil-produktion bis

zum Tourismus.

Unsere neue Fluggesellschaft muss glaubwürdig sein,es muss

alles unternommen werden,damit das Produkt der Firmenkultur

entspricht und sie widerspiegelt.Wenn die Sicherheit im Zen-

trum des Flugbetriebs und der Kultur steht,wird der Kunde die-

se Sicherheit auch wahrnehmen.Aber Glaubwürdigkeit muss

auch in den anderen Handlungen der Fluggesellschaft liegen,in

erster Linie im zwischenmenschlichen Kontakt mit ihren Kunden.

Glaubwürdigkeit ist das Schlüsselelement,das den Unterschied

ausmacht und den Rahmen des Gewöhnlichen und Üblichen

sprengt.

Das Bemühen um Qualität betreffend Sicherheit und Komfort an

Bord muss umfassend,stetig und kompromisslos sein.Qualität

beginnt beim Billettkauf und erstreckt sich bis zur - allenfalls

fehlgeleiteten -Auslieferung des Gepäckes.

Diese Grundwerte müssen auf kreative Art und Weise umgesetzt

werden.Wenn aus Sicherheitsgründen auf den Flugzeugen auf

Silberbesteck verzichtet werden muss,könnte Swissair dafür

Holz statt Plastik verwenden - so meinte kürzlich Wallpaper ,das

angesagteste Trendmagazin,dessen Leserschaft genau der Ziel-

gruppe der neuen Fluggesellschaft entsprechen würde.Dies ist

genau die Art von Kreativität,die nötig ist,um den Kunden unse-

rer künftigen Airline ein wirklich einzigartiges Erlebnis zu bieten.

Der Qualitätseindruck hängt für den Kunden aber auch von der

Einheitlichkeit des Produktes ab.In einer interkontinental täti-

gen Airline findet der erste Kontakt mit der Gesellschaft manch-

mal in Ländern statt,die sehr wenig mit "Schweiz " zu tun haben..

Aus diesem Grund scheint es uns wesentlich,dass das Verkaufs-

und Vertretungsnetz der neuen Fluggesellschaft weiterhin von

Schweizern geleitet wird.In der gesamten Luxus-Güter-Industrie

nähern sich die ausländischen Verkaufsnetze wieder immer

mehr den Stammhäusern.Das ist der Preis für die erfolgreiche

Pflege und Wirkung einer starken Marke.



EINE ANGEPASSTE PREISPOLITIK



Eine Top-Produkte Strategie funktioniert nicht,wenn dem Kun-

den nicht auch ein Mehrwert geboten wird.Nichts ist schädli-

cher als ein Pseudo Top-Produkt,das nur der Rechtfertigung

einer übertrieben Preispolitik dient.

Hingegen ist es möglich,dass mit einer Top-Produkte Politik in

anderen Segmenten ebenfalls höhere Margen erzielt werden

können,was der eher teureren Kostenstruktur der Schweiz ent-

gegen kommt.

Unsere Fluggesellschaft muss eine Preispolitik führen können,

die dem Service und den gebotenen Dienstleistungen ent-

spricht.

In einer Welt,in der jeder Konsument - zu Recht - nur das be--

zahlen will,was er auch konsumiert,aber auch genau wissen

will,wohin sein Geld fliesst,müssen Aspekte wie Sicherheit

auch klar dazu dienen,die verlangten Preise zu rechtfertigen.Es

geht nicht darum,etwas einfach so besser zu machen als die

anderen,sondern deshalb,weil es der Kunde verlangt.



DIE SCHWEIZ IM ZENTRUM DER ENTWICKLUNG



Die Politik der Swissair der letzten zehn Jahre wurde teilweise

als ein Element der Auftrennung zwischen den Bevölkerungs-

teilen der Schweiz empfunden.Die neue Fluggesellschaft muss

unbedingt zu einer Strategie zurückkehren,die den Zusammen-

halt sämtlicher Regionen des Landes fördert.Der auf nationaler

Ebene aufgestellte Rettungsplan wird politisch nur dann akzep-

tiert werden,wenn die neue Fluggesellschaft tatsächlich auch

als national empfunden wird.



UNSER HUB HEISST "SCHWEIZ "



Da die Startphase bereits eingeleitet ist,muss die neue Flugge-

sellschaft unbedingt eine Überprüfung des zusammengeführten

Streckennetzes beider Gesellschaften vornehmen,wobei die

unterschiedlichen Bedürfnisse der verschiedenen Landesteile

berücksichtigt werden müssen.

Wir sind der Meinung,dass die neue Fluggesellschaft aus dem

"Hub Schweiz " - bestehend aus zwei bis drei Landesflughäfen --

operieren sollte,der die Verteilung der Flüge gemäss den Be-

dürfnissen und Komfortansprüchen der verschiedenen Kunden-

segmente erlaubt.

Wenn zwischen den einzelnen Flugplätzen ein Pendelverkehr

existiert,ob durch die neue Fluggesellschaft oder einen anderen

Operator durchgeführt,muss er in jeder Richtung funktionieren,

um glaubhaft zu sein.Es sollte beispielsweise möglich sein,

dass ein Passagier von Zürich für einen bestimmten Langstrek-

kenflug auch via Genf reist.

Wenn es die Strecken-Rentabilität erlaubt,sind wir der Ansicht,

dass von den Landesflughäfen aus mindestens ein wichtiger

Umsteigeflughafen auf den anderen Kontinenten angeflogen

werden sollte,um der lokalen Kundschaft eine Reise mit mehre-

ren Zwischenlandungen zu ersparen.

SWISSAIRLINES



EFFIZIENZ IM ZENTRUM DES MANAGEMENT



Die Swissair-Piloten möchten ihren Beruf weiterhin im Rahmen

einer Fluggesellschaft ausüben,die einen wirksamen Beitrag zur

Ausstrahlung und Entwicklung sämtlicher Landesteile leistet.

Insbesondere möchten sie nicht die ehemaligen Strukturen oder

die Unternehmenspolitik der Swissair verteidigen,wenn sie

nicht den Zielen dienen,welche sie in der neuen Fluggesell-

schaft verwirklicht sehen möchten.

INTEGRIERTE AKTIVITÄTSBEREICHE

Die Piloten möchten wieder eine Fluggesellschaft und nicht ein

Generalunternehmen im Lufttransport.Die Politik der ehemali-

gen Swissair Führung,die aufgrund der damaligen Unrentabili-

tät der Flugoperationen in eine Diversifikation der Geschäftstä-

tigkeit mündete,ist auf Dauer gefährlich.Sie geht davon aus,

dass der reine Flugbetrieb ökonomisch nicht gewinnbringend

betrieben werden kann,woran die Piloten zweifeln.

Die Piloten wünschen sich,dass sich die neue Fluggesellschaft

auf den Flugbetrieb konzentriert und sich nur dann auf andere

Aktivitäten einlässt,wenn diese für eine höhere Kundenzufrie-

denheit und eine höhere Sicherheit unentbehrlich sind.

DAS LOW-COST-SYSTEM KANN NICHT ÜBERALL ANGEWENDET WERDEN

EasyJet,die Billig-Fluggesellschaft par excellence,wendet das

Low-cost-System nicht auf den Flugbetrieb,sondern nur auf die

nicht direkt produkte-bezogenen Bereiche des Unternehmens

sich dabei um eine leistungsbezogene Bewirt-

schaftung ihrer Neben-und Allgemeinkosten,die es ihr erlaubt,

sich erfolgreich im Umfeld der Tiefstpreise weiterzuentwickeln.

Allerdings kann diese Tarifpolitik nicht für unsere neue Flugge-

sellschaft übernommen werden.

Die Swissair-Piloten sind der Ansicht,dass die ehemaligen

Strukturen der Swissair verbessert werden müssen.Die Struktu-

ren,die mit der Langstrecken-Operationen verbunden sind und

sich in ökonomischer Hinsicht bewährt haben,sollen analysiert

und übernommen werden.Denn sie sind der Erfahrungsschatz

der ehemaligen Fluggesellschaft.

Betreffend Verbesserung der Produktionskosten muss von einer

Null-Basis ausgegangen werden und nicht von einem Modell,

von dem man auch nicht mit Sicherheit sagen kann,dass es sich

in der Vergangenheit immer bewährt hat. "

dear colleagues,
you act like you know exactly how to build a new Airline, why arent you building your own Airline ?

Please do it, try to get your 52 Aircrafts flying without any help from Goverment nor from the b***Y
taxpayers. Show the world that you are unbeatable,that you are knowing everything better than the others, please go for it and I would be proud.
And do not forget: errare humanum est

Cheerio, Lime

[Cisco Kid]

Saffa Baby! I´m flattered to be offered a position in your new organisation, it cannot be any worse than both ccp and aeropers. P.S still
eagerly awaiting your promised run down Bahnhofstrasse, how will I recognise you?
Happy New Year Cisco.

[Hold at Saffa]

Cisco,
Thanks for accepting the position of immense importance I've reserved just for you in HASALPA.

On the subject of hypothermia, just in case, you understand, I strolled down Bahnhoffstrasse from trains to drains and have decided that, should I lose our little wager, I'm in a lot of trouble.
To answer your question, I shall be the tall, plump, slightly blue fellow, with humiliatingly diminished extremities.

If a chilly dash is called for, I intend to hold you to your offer of gluewine, and since I look fabulous in Sable, I'll accept nothing less than a full length number with high colar, please.

I regret to advise that having met and chatted with our new President, and worse still, seen with my own eyes, both he and AD together on the same podium, I am somewhat concerned. I still think 'fired' is a step too far, but the prospect of demotion had lead me to ensure my Swiss medical insurance is fully paid-up to include the very best frostbite clinic money can buy.

[FrappsZello]

dear Hold at Saffa,

Thanks for your confidence and offer of a position on the Board of HASALPA. I am sorry but I cannot accept however - I intend to be as far away as possible (permanently!) from "Cloud Cuckoo Land", on the 1.4.02.

I don't think you should lose too much sleep over what Aeropes are likely to do though. If past performance is anything to go by they strut around for awhile, but once the going gets tough, it gets pretty quiet and the only thing their members hear from them is ... "please be patient, blah, blah...". I will be gobsmacked if they ever make use of their so-called solidarity and actually cause any waves.

[Lime]

Tomorrow, the Giants will meet.
(CCP,AEROPERS,CROSSAIR-MANAGEMENT)

good luck and let the guns at home !


Cheerio, Lime

[Lime]

no comment!

[Hold at Saffa]

Ah yes, the much heralded "stroll in the forrest".
[quote]Tomorrow, the Giants will meet.
(CCP,AEROPERS,CROSSAIR-MANAGEMENT) <hr></blockquote>
This will be AD's greatest challenge to date. Personally, I hope he takes a concealed Glock with a 10-clip of Rhino-stoppers and claims the moral high ground by whatever means necessary.

By the way, Cisco, what's the latest on Canton Zürich's CHF300M? If they get cold feet, 26/26 is likely to look a bit thiner, with all sorts of nasty consequences. You're a man of influence and authority around the Limmat, DO something!

[Cisco Kid]

Saff it´s pretty finely balanced at the moment,the sympathy vote has "cooled" and the 300 mil. might be a close run thing first time around,
followed by a reduced fleet plan(always the main agenda):The real low cost boys are on the rampage in Europe with dire consequences for Swiss home grown short range, so let´s say an initial "no" followed by political shenanigans between Basel and Zurich,for no good reason.

Finally the money comes through; a fleet of say, 15/20(ex Sr).AD goes away, or sideways,and you old bean do the "run" actually as I am magnanimous in victory, jogging gear is quite acceptable!.Having said that, I hope for the best for all concerned,good ,flexible management is the key and I just don´t think that is available at the moment too many skeletons in cupboards...how nice it would be to start with a blank sheet of paper, but the opportunity has passed.Good Luck Cisco.

[Hold at Saffa]

Actually, Cisco, as much as it chokes me to admit it... I think some of your gloomier prediction may, MAY, mind you come to pass. However:
[quote]and you old bean do the "run" actually as I am magnanimous in victory, jogging gear is quite acceptable! <hr></blockquote>
I'm a man of my word, and if I lose our wager, naked it shall be, but the deal is if AD was fired, which I still believe would be an enourmous and unlikely leap backwards.

Interestingly, MS is viewing the world from a hot air balloon somewhere in Burma. Fascinating commentary on proceedings, no?

[Kerosene Kraut]

Why are the swiss not starting some completely new airline? As somebody mentioned above: If you start to just transfer costly structures from swissair into crossair you'll end up with the same problems again.
Start something else. Like a swiss Ryanair or maybe more like a JetBlue. Zurich is a great hub.

[Cisco Kid]

Good idea KK!
Saffa perhaps MS is the only one with any sense.
I understand it´s an aviation first, no gas bottles required! the endless supply of hot air is supplied by the passengers.. throw in a few ex SR top shots and a round the world flight without conventional fuel becomes possible."Flatulence Flights" has a catchy ring to it,non.
See you Cisco.

[Hold at Saffa]

Good Grief!

[Lime]

Why a new airline ??
There is no need for.

[Hunter58]

Cisco

knowing MS he's certainly also broiling some ideas besides looking at the burmese coutryside from above... Ans especially since 'es ist nicht alles gut, Herr Gut', he might have some not only friendly feelings to show some people that the airline business must be understood first and cannot be bought!

By the way, what are you doing???

[broadreach]

Whichever way this tug-of-war goes, I think it would be unthinkably shortsighted to throw away the Swissair brand.

[Lime]

Swissair is history that is for sure.

[efcop]

the company as such for sure. the brand or bits of it may be salvaged or sold off to satisfy some of sr's investors.

[FrappsZello]

Lime,

Swissair is history - I think not!

Swissair was a top company worldwide for over 50 years. Here in Switzerland its problems are well known. However outside Europe it is still considered a quality airline and it would be rather silly of the new Company to not take advantage of this fact. Calling the new company Swiss Air Lines as has been mooted might be an idea?

Secondly, I somehow don't think the 900 odd pilots flying around in planes with a huge red swissair painted on the fuselage are likely to agree with you either. They are very proud of their heritage and should the fledgling airline actually fly come April it will be these same pilots sitting in these same aircraft, doing the same job, whatever name is written on the side. What is required now are some enlighted moves from both the management and unions. Stop the bickering on who is better, is history or is anything else and put all your energies into taking the best of both Swissair and Crossair into the new venture and make it into a company you can all be proud of. Both sides must put aside the past, the cheap accusations and schadenfreude and move ahead!

[Hooking Fell]

FrappsZello:

Intentionally or otherwise, you have put in a nutshell the very fundamentals of what was wrong at SR:

- the perception that SR is viewed as a quality airline

- the somewhat misplaced extreme pride by the 900 odd pilots you mention.

A quality airline would - by definition - be one that provides a marketable product whilst returning a profit. This, as we all know, is not was SR was all about. Whilst some passengers (notably those from third world countries) might indeed feel orgasmic about being served a square of Swiss chocolate at 30,000+ ft, such anecdotal stuff must not be confused with universal approval let alone superiority. The fact is that service costs money, and there are many competitors out there with a cost base that is significantly lower than that found in Switzerland, a country where even the most basic consumer goods cost 30% more than elsewhere. (Then there is the infamous AEG washing machine that - as it turns out - costs THREE times more in Switzerland than in neighbouring Germany...).

Given SR/CX's reasonably average safety record (http://www.airsafetyonline.com/safetycenter/reportcard.shtml), the 900 odd pilots you mention are perhaps simply sticking their heads in the sand. In Europe alone, carriers with a better record include: Aer Lingus, Air France, Alitalia, Austrian, BA, Finnair, Iberia, Icelandair, Lufthansa, KLM, TAP, Virgin Atlantic.

As to whether SR was really a top class company "for over 50 years" is, to say the least, highly debatable. The rot, it seems, began setting in during the late 70's and early 80's.

[Hold at Saffa]

The truth is, that market research clearly indicates that the Swissair brand is indeed perceived as a quality product both within Europe but especially overseas. The travelling public have shown, Hooking Fell, that they are prepared to pay extra for a quality product in the face of much cheaper competition. Crossair is living proof of that.

The sad reality, however, is that the name Swissair is impossible to use for the new Swiss Airline, since it has 17 billion Swiss Francs (US10 Billion) of debt associated with it.

Of the main risks associated with the new airline's <a href="http://www.project-phoenix.ch/en/project/businessplan.html" target="_blank">business plan</a> is the colateral financial risk represented by continued use of the Swissair name. Recent seizure of Crossair assets in Oslo and Nice reflect this risk.

Whatever the new business is to be ultimately called, one thing is for certain. It WILL NOT be Swissair. It cannot.

[ 09 January 2002: Message edited by: Hold at Saffa ]</p>

[Kerosene Kraut]

What will the new name be like? Heard confusing rumours that it will be swisswings (like the former Air Engiadina). Some reservation computers are said to already use it. Swiss Air Lines still seems to be more likely to me. Sounds more like Swissair without legally continuing to use their name.

[FrappsZello]

Hooking Fell,

I have to side with Saffa view on this one. Perhaps you have a slanted view of Switzerland and/or Swissair in particular? You are also wrong in thinking that the rot set in as far back as the late 70's, early 80's. I would say it was around 88 with the appointment of Loepfe. Switzerland does have a significantly higher cost base than it's competitors but this did not affect its perfomance in the past. You intimate that it is/was not a quality airline because it was not about providing a marketable product while returning a profit. Wrong! That is exactly what they DID achieve over a long period, until PB came along and managed to destroy the company in 5 short years. Managements poor handling should not be foisted onto its pilots and be a reason for them not to be proud of their company. You allude to safety as being another reason that they should not be proud. Bit over the top, even for you! Just about every airline you quote has a similar safety history to Swissair. If anyone has his head in the sand I think it is you.

Saffa - I do not believe that Swissair is a viable option as a name for the future swiss airline for the very reasons you have stated. Too many headaches and too much money would be needed to solve that little problem. Swiss Air Lines seems to be flavour of the month.

[Kerosene Kraut]

Agree, one cannot blame SR-pilots and staff for what happened with their company. The pure SR-airline seemed to do quite well till the end.

Another thing is that strange management concept to rapidly expand by buying all these other risky candidates. That broke their neck.
That strategy had been suggested by some very well known consultant company...
We better look forward.

[ 09 January 2002: Message edited by: Kerosene Kraut ]</p>

[Cisco Kid]

Actually Swissair has consistently been in the top 3 "best airlines" short and long haul for a very long time, how one quantifies quality.. or what is best is another matter; but " a marketable product which returns a profit" does not satisfy the definition,at least as far as a service industry is concerned.eg Macdonalds vs. Maxims,both are profitable.

Countless awards for service, safety and reliability do mean something, a comparison with others in some areas is,as always a bit pointless;No doubt about it Swissair was perceived by the travelling public as a great airline, an innovator and a company which set standards of excellence.Airline standards of Service in all Europe have declined,in the US they are non existant, some bright spots still exist within the asian and middle eastern operators let us hope they do not succumb to the "profit above all" mantra; breeding a homogenous mass transport staffed by poorly paid and trained employees(not some of the Pilots and senior managers I might add) and advised by countless consultants whose Mba´s have a limited shelf life and are fed the most appalling crap in school regarding airline management.Good operations directors and motivated ,fairly paid staff at all levels are what make it happen..when the strategy is sound.Noone can save a company or an economy from endless major strategic blunders which are not recognised in time,or as in SR´s case were ignored.Almost criminally so.
Profit is vital but a return to "A SERVICE"not a product mind set would be nice.

Low cost carriers provide a good; and in the case of EJ a very good product and safe transport,but not service, that´s not their aim and good luck to them .

Hooking Fell you seem to have an ingrown toenail or other painful condition in regard to Swissair and Crossair...What´s the real story? did you have SR shares?..cmon spill the beans ,..you can trust Cisco.

[Cisco Kid]

The new name! why "SAFFAIR" of course..member of the Cisco group of companies //Cayman Islands and Las Vegas

What do you think Saff?

[DCS99]

I understand the new company won't be called Swissair simply because the rights to that name belong to Swissair Group and it would cost a fortune to buy back. Mind you, that money might help daft s*ds like myself who still hold Swissair shares. Current price 1 CHF. Price in '97 - was it really 450 CHF?! I fear it was. Oh dear. I told the wife I should stick to gambling on Manchester United comebacks instead but she never went along with that <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

On a lighter note, an urban myth here is that Crossair could never operate to certain Moslem countries in the Middle East.
Apparently it's bad enough that Swissair already have a (Christian looking) cross on the tail, but having the location where the infidel was strung up i.e. the "Cross", would be a step too far.

And finally on a practical note, is there any chance of putting back the 2100hrs ban on R28 jet departures from ZRH? I'm sure even a 30 minute extension would save Crossair/Swissair loads of money, particularly holding fuel for R14 whilst ATC send off the waves of departures from R34.
Surely they can send Jumbolinos and Embraers off R28 till 2200hrs without disturbing the locals (and I am one of them) that much?
Yes, I had to wait till 2227L recently (STD 2055hrs) to get airbourne on an RJ recently when we lost our slot after deicing, so I'm asking out of self-interest as well.

Good luck to all in "New Crossair/Swiss Airlines" - as others have said, ZRH is a great hub, and will be even better when they've finished building it <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

[The Guvnor]

The following has been brought to my attention. Has anyone read it yet?:

[quote]Der Fall der Swissair - ISBN 3-909167-67-5.

An insider's report about the background of the Swissair business drama. What happened behind the scenes is mercilessly documented.
- Why did Swissair collapse
- Who were the guilty
- Which way does the new Swissair turn.
Author: Rene Luchinger, published on BILANZ, Zurich.

On 300 pages the author gives a seemingly very accurrate description about how stange management principles and power struggles on 7th floor - the carpet floor - at the Swissair HQ in Zurich demolished one the the world's proudest airlines.

The author goes into every detail up to 15 years back and up to less than two months ago when it was delivered to the printer.

It goes into such a detail that if it wasn't 99.9% accurrate, then it would have created a outroar in Switzerland. And half a dozen former SR managers would have sued the author. Since such an outroar has not been reported, then it must be assumed very accurrate.

It's a book about terrible mismanagement, incompetent leadership and completely crazy ambitions and risk management.

"Der Fall der Swissair" should be mandatory reading for everybody studying corporate management.

Language is German. I know of no English translation. Price around SFR 30 or USD 20.
<hr></blockquote>

[Cisco Kid]

ZRH is a good airport but is too small and noise sensitive ever to become a great hub,I´m sorry but the "hub dream"seems unlikely,as you said 1.5 hrs delay due to rwy closure +rwy layout etc I could go on, this "great hub"illusion is a con;

Better to make it an efficient mid size Airport don´t try to do a "Swissair"and take over the world or the place is doomed to bankruptcy.Sorry that´s the reality. Some great hubs ATL ORD LAX CDG LHR FRA AMS potential great hub MUC...see the difference?anyway in 10 yrs. this whole hub thing will be obsolete...maybe.

[Hold at Saffa]

[quote]The new name! why "SAFFAIR" of course..member of the Cisco group of companies //Cayman Islands and Las Vegas
What do you think Saff?

<hr></blockquote>
I'm rather fond of Ciscair Switzerland, actually Cisco, and since the rags in Zürich this afternoon are proposing Air Switzerland...I might be on a winner!

I know everyone's going to become awfully grumpy with me, but what's wrong with calling it Crossair? Terrific European brand recognition, quality reputation, fabulous product....whoops, I mean service, of course....silly me.

[ 09 January 2002: Message edited by: Hold at Saffa ]</p>

[Cisco Kid]

In Fact Ciscair is rather good...mmmm,

The Swiss have problems when it comes to finding
names for products or services which would appeal to the english speaking world. Internationally Crossair is unknown and Swissair is unusable. So a dilemma.....

I propose a competition on this site to establish
a suitable name for the new Swiss airline,I would like to say anything avoiding the word "air" as the second syllable gets 10 bonus points.

The winner gets 200,000,000, qualifier miles to be used on Swissair flights only! after the end of April,and a bottle of champagne to be presented by Cisco personally.So guys and gals get creative!
you must be better than those dodgy advertising agencies in Zurich and a lot cheaper.. er I mean cost productive.

[bluskis]

Err,
SWATCH
simply wonderful and terribly CHick

[Hooking Fell]

Cisco Kid:

No ingrown toe nails here, mate. However, despite all that has unraveled in Switzerland over the last decade or so (banking scandals over accounts belonging to holocaust victims and over money laundering, lousy safety records in road transport [Gotthard Tunnel] and leisure industries [canyoning deaths and bungee jumping victims], and a national carrier that holds the sad record of the largest corporate f*ck-up in the country’s history), there still prevails an attitude of “can do no wrong” at best and total arrogance at worst.

You do not have to take my humble opinion for fact. But you could, for instance, also consider a couple of facts recorded in Sepp Moser’s (probably Switzerland’s foremost authority on the country’s aviation industry – notwithstanding his own problems with flying a plane containing fuel mixed with water last year) recent book “Bruchlandung” (Sepp Moser, Orell Füssli):

Quote 1:
(Re Arrogance): In Alaska führte ein als Passagier mitfliegender Swissair-Pilot einen Radau auf, nur weil er glaubte, seinen schnee- und wintererfahrenen Berufskollegen lautstark beibringen zu müssen, wie sie in einem Schneesturm zu starten haben.


Quote 2:
Re Superiority complex: Konflikte zurückdämmen statt lösen, mauern statt informieren, den Kopf in den Sand stecken, nach der Devise: “Wir sind und bleiben die Nummer eins - wir können auch alleine in Europa überleben”.

(As we are discussing SR and Switzerland in this thread, I’m sure I do not need to translate these statements).

There is a national tendency in Switzerland to either want to be in charge of any multi-national grouping or to go it alone. Example: Qualiflyer Group, an alliance built on the refusal to be just part of any of the truly large alliances. On a larger scale, there is the dogged refusal to join the UN or even the EU. Whether this is the result of arrogance, ignorance or stubbornness, you tell me, please.

<img src="confused.gif" border="0">

[ 10 January 2002: Message edited by: Hooking Fell ]</p>

[Botteron]

[quote]Der Fall der Swissair - ISBN 3-909167-67-5. <hr></blockquote>

Yes, I've bought it. It is also available in a French translation. I think it is published by the Edipresse owned
<a href="http://www.edicom.ch/bilan/ladebacle/" target="_blank">Bilan Magazine</a>. I think it's also available for reading for free on the net.
The book is quite interresting as it traces the Swissair story for the last 12 - 15 year (about when Loepfe entered into action). There are some good stories like "How did Moritz Suter" kill the Alcazar project, etc...
It sounds like a good piece of journalism, but am not 100% sure about the truth of everything. Not that I have doubts, but well... Things are sometimes kept secret!

[Hold at Saffa]

[quote]I propose a competition on this site to establish
a suitable name for the new Swiss airline,I would like to say anything avoiding the word "air" as the second syllable gets 10 bonus points. <hr></blockquote>
A synthesis of Crossair and Swissair....hmmmmmmm, difficult.

Ooh Oooooh, I know. Take the first syllable of LX and the second syllable of SR!
PERFECT. :)

[Cisco Kid]

Hooking you have made some valid points,there is certainly an "Island" mentality in Gnomeland changing slowly as the real world encroaches evermore into the country.A feudal system is in it´s death throes,I hope.Many countries, including the land of the free have scandals which they would prefer to leave buried.I do have to say that on the non-management side SR was an excellent Airline( based on comparison and personal experience).
I´m sure you remember the Aussie Pilot strike debacle in ,was it 89?,arrogance on the Government´s part,Media bias,dirty tricks, in fact the lot. Anyway a sensitive issue for all the Pilots concerned;and causing misery to many of our colleagues;but I wasn´t there but it seemed scandalous to me.

AS for Sepp Moser well,who knows? he is a journalist after all! I do know quite a lot about that ANC story though and the Captain whom I knew
assured me the Aircraft wings were contaminated with wet snow during taxy out.I think it took nerve to point this out and refuse to travel in the Aircraft ,he was dead heading with crew,he was arrested briefly, and most interestingly the Alaskan Airways A/C was de-iced again at the gate.By the way he was not Swiss,maybe he stopped an accident, maybe not,but remember Air Florida in Washington?I don´t see this as arrogant rather as responsible behaviour.
He´d probably be locked up for 20yrs. nowadays!

So old Sepp sometimes let´s his lack of real expertise show,but the Public don´t realise that of course. Good Luck Cisco.

[Hold at Saffa]

[quote]On a larger scale, there is the dogged refusal to join the UN or even the EU. Whether this is the result of arrogance, ignorance or stubbornness, you tell me, please. <hr></blockquote>
Just plain good sense, it seems to me.
Switzerland has everything to lose and nothing to gain by EU membership, unless and until the EU relaxes it's financial transparency rules, that is.

The EU budget is €90Billion, and a whisker under €4.5Billion vanishes each and every year, unaccounted for and unexplained. Why on earth would anyone volunteer to join the outfit while there are Belgians involved?
Why should they join either organisation. What's in it for Switzerland? Nuthin', mate!

[ 10 January 2002: Message edited by: Hold at Saffa ]</p>

[Aerienne]

How's about suisseair?...

[Cisco Kid]

oui Aerienne..pas mal, the best so far.

A bit Xenophobic Saffa the "what´s in it for us" line is counterproductive,and Swissair managed to "disappear" about 10 billion dollars as a result of the desperation to gain a foothold in the EU via Sabena as a result of a no vote to the EWR.It would have been better value to join surely.Ask any redundant SR employee if an EU passport would help them find a job, of course it would, in Europe anyway!and doesn´t the LX Basel base allow qausi EU traffic rights?The question is what would Switzerland have to offer the EU? not the other way around.

[+TS]

New Names

Swiss European Airlines (Crossair) and Swiss World Arlines (swissair)

Mother company is Swiss and European and World are the subdivisions.

2 CLA's same pay and separate seniority systems.

We'll see.

[Aviatrix69]

[quote] 2 CLA's same pay and separate seniority systems <hr></blockquote>
No way, José, +TS, watch out for the lightning!!

[Cisco Kid]

SWISS EUROPEAN /SWISS INTERNATIONAL,good names TS

But we could drop the word Airways, keep the "old Swissair" tail logo (instantly recognisable) and there you have it. perhaps a revamped colour scheme? it is a nice combination; neither SR or LX but something new,without being pathetic eg."unique Airport"

as FOR SENIORITY AND PAY.. LATER ON TERMS AND ENDEARMENT PERHAPS.

[Hold at Saffa]

[quote]But we could drop the word Airways, keep the "old Swissair" tail logo <hr></blockquote>
'Fraid not, me old darling. That's a trademark, and possesses the same colateral liability as the 'S' word.

[Botteron]

QUOTE] Swiss European Airlines (Crossair) and Swiss World Arlines (swissair)[ [/QUOTE]

Swiss World... That name has already been used for a new company a few years ago, when SR pull out of Geneva.

They were operating one B767 between GVA and JFK but went bankrupt after a few weeks of operations. I still don't understand why they decided to operate on the only line that Swissair kept open from GVA <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

Anyhow, SWA, I think is out of the order...

[Gate B40]

how about
"Société Anonyme Suisse d'Exploitation de la Navigation Aérienne"

you could call it "Sasena" for short...

or would our swissgerman friends not agree? then how about "Schweizerische Lufthansa" ?
:) :)

[380]

http://www.kmu.ch/just4fun/gallery/bilder/Swissair0.jpg

how 'bout this name?

[FrappsZello]

Hooking Fell,

Yep, the Swiss re-invent the wheel yearly. They certainly do not like to be told anything and their "little man in Europe, but we can stand alone" attitude has done the Airline Industry no favours. Hopefully the Swissair debacle has taught them a lesson but whether they will actually change is debatable. Watching the goings on with the new airline of Switzerland, I have my doubts.

Sepp Moser "the foremost aviation authority"? Here you are skating on thin ice! The man does exemplary research and then tends to ruin the whole effort by finding some way of relating it in a negative way regarding Swissair. You do know of course that his little incident with water in the fuel was not HIS fault, but certainly a Swissair pilot trying to kill him! Anyway, after his last 2 humbling appearances on TV, he has gone very quiet. One hopes it stays this way.

Regarding the Alaska incident. Cisco's report is 100% accurate. I think the Captains actions were exactly what is called for in this situation and I would hope that all of us would do the same in similar conditions.

[Hooking Fell]

FrappsZello:

Given the details that Max Lenz has made available about SR's de-icing policies, I would be very surprised if any SR pilot would find anything disturbing about taking off with snow or ice on the wings......

[Momo]

"Air Fondue" would also capture what happens to the invested capital and share values, for French speakers.

The need to be in an Alliance seems strange to me. Nobody seems to be predicting disaster for Uncle Richard. (For Alliance, read Swissair and Switzerland)

Momo

[edriver]

Maybe Swisscrossair!

Good compromise, well emphasized and now even the stupid knows where we are from

[Kerosene Kraut]

Why not just "Swiss"?

At least this is one name Crossair has copyrighted at the swiss "Eidgenössisches Institut für Markenschutz" recently.

[ 11 January 2002: Message edited by: Kerosene Kraut ]</p>

[Hold at Saffa]

I like it, KK!
Stylish, understated, elegant, recognisable.
If it isn't going to be http://www.airlinecrew.net/images/Airline_logos/crx.gif then I think yours is the winning entry....plus 10 bonus points! What says you, Cisco?

[FrappsZello]

Hooking Fell,

Getting into a discourse about icing on this thread is moving away from its original theme - naming the new airline. Suffice to say I know why Max Lenz is not a pilot in Swissair anymore and I find no problem with the de-icing policy of Swissair.

[efcop]

accepting frost on top of the wings -no matter how thick it is- is unprofessional, shows zero understanding of aerodynamics and is just plain dangerous. the clean wing concept makes sense on every type of aircraft.

but now back to the topic
what does the community think of Swiss United or the other way round?

[Aviatrix69]

nice name. The pilot's association then would be called "SUPA" :)
Me likes it... <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

[ 11 January 2002: Message edited by: Aviatrix69 ]</p>

[FrappsZello]

Efcop, are you stating that it is Swissair policy to accept frost on the top of the wing?

[efcop]

I am stating that a SR a320 fleet chief communicated to his boys and girls that a thin layer of frost is acceptable. I guess he was trying to keep the cost of deicing down...
during snowfall and oat +2° I witnessed a SR a320 declining to anti ice the wings "as the snow was melting on the wings". everybody else chose to anti ice the aircraft.

[Gate B40]

or call it CHair ("the most comfortable seats in the sky")

maybe LakeAir and offer really cheap transatlantic flights... :) :)

[Moritz Suter]

[quote]what does the community think of Swiss United <hr></blockquote>
ABSOLUTELY NOT. Sounds like a fußbal team!

Men and women of Switzerland, this is my baby we're talking about. Lets have some serious suggestions.

Here's mine. Lets call it...
http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,150296,00.jpg

[ 11 January 2002: Message edited by: Moritz Suter ]</p>

[efcop]

Moritz, you are extreeeeemly funny

[Moritz Suter]

Don't forget clever, handsome, visionary, and much closer to the action than you might have thought!

http://www2.bluewin.ch/finance/boerse_images/personen/suter.jpg

[Aerienne]

What about ex-air and rotate the existing cross 45 degrees? :)

[efcop]

Moritz, I didn't realize you'd be online in your hotair balloon over Burma.
Beware of angry eagles that may puncture your skin

[bluskis]

Swiss Wings Aerial Transport Company (Holdings)

Runs like clockwork.

[Moritz Suter]

Thuraya satelite mobile and a laptop...kein problem!
Been saving my toilet bags as a little airborne surprise for Bruggisser, I'm told he's lurking in these parts.

Back to the topic, LET'S CALL IT.......

http://www.netzpress.ch/bilder/ACFLBVqwQ.jpg

[max lenz]

FrappsZello, you seem to know, why Max Lenz is not Swissair Captain anymore.
Could you tell me the reason as well?

[Rusty A300]

There's only one idiot at Crotchair that posts picture, faces and little angry men like that: isn't there now Hold at Tossa?

[126.9]

Well said Rusty. Now try doing what the rest of us do, Just ignore him.

[Lime]

Air Swiss ???

[Botteron]

Whatever it is, a press conference should be held today and the new name released.
According to André Kudelski, a board member, yesterday on the Swiss TV, the name should contain the word "Swiss" but he wouldn't comment further.

[TheShadow]

SWISSARIA
with an "aria" being an air or melody.
Very catchy

SWISSARIEL
with Ariel being in folklore: "a light and graceful spirit of the air." and "a mischievous sprite"

SWISSARYAN
with Aryan being "part of a master race"

SWISSAERIAL
with aerial being "Reaching high into the air" or
in another sense: "insubstantial; imaginary"

SWISSAREA
with "area" meaning "regional or district-bound"

Vol-au-Vent
being "A light pastry shell with an even lighter filling"

SKELETAIR
what's left after everyone's picked over the Swissair bone.

SWIZZLESTICKAIR
A small thin rod for stirring the air

CRUCIFERLUCIFERAIR
a cross between the devil you know and devil-may-care

YODELAIR
with a yodel being a falsetto song

YOKELAIR
with yokels being a group of rustic bumpkins

CHEESEAIR
with cheese being "a moulded, mouldy mass of aging curdled milk"

SUZERAINAIR
with a suzerain being "A nation that controls another nation in international affairs but allows it domestic sovereignty".
and for a person "A feudal lord to whom fealty was due."

VERSAVICEAIR
"vice versa" with the order or meaning reversed; conversely

VERSATILAIR
from versatile: "Capable of doing many things competently", "Variable or inconstant" or in biology: "Capable of moving freely in all directions"

DEVILMAKAIR
"devil may care" - capable of moving from the Satanic Verses to the Satanic Reverses.

CORROBOREE
an aboriginal dance festival of great tumult and wassail

DIDJERIDOO
A long hollow branch that makes a deep drone when blown into.

SWISSULLIEDAIR
from to sully: To mar the cleanness or luster of; soil or stain, to defile; taint.

[+TS]

The Shadow :

Shodowair : May the sun come up and the shadow dissapear.

Swiss International Airlines (SIA)