I-Pad - almost useless as an EFB

[IO540]

This video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8_ejgjyLoc) shows heavy reflections - as expected for a glossy plain-technology LCD.

A grossly over-hyped product for aviation.

Compare it with this image (http://s101.photobucket.com/albums/m74/peterh337/?action=view&current=ls800-memorymap.jpg) of a tablet with a specialised sunlight-readable screen, taken in direct sunlight. Most tablets on the market are not available with this type of LCD (and the LS800 in the last pic is no longer made) but the more expensive ones are available with it e.g. this one (http://www.sumotech.com/english/hardware/st312_overview.php).

[tmmorris]

Odd there's no Windows 7 support on that last one - you'd have thought it would be the way forward as touch support is much better than XP Tablet edition (which in my limited experience - Samsung Q1 - was a bit pants).

Is it technically possible to produce a capacitive touchscreen with matte finish?

Tim

[IO540]

Yes, you can have any surface finish.

The Samsung Q1, IIRC, was not a "proper tablet" which has an inductive touch screen, which can be operated only with the special pen. This is both good and bad: good because you can keep the thing on your knee and have bits of paper lying on top and you can write on them, etc, and bad because you have to use that special pen all the time you want to interact with it.

IMHO the inductive touch screen is better because it eliminates accidental interactions which are the last thing you want in the cockpit scenario. Also, most interaction is just fishing out approach plates, which doesn't need much activity.

[Fuji Abound]

Sadly based on that video the iPad looks useless for in cockpit purposes - such a shame.

IO - the Sumo looks a good solution, but no one seems to obvioulsy sell them - have you found a supplier?

As you know I am all glass anyway but for other reasons I am interested to see whether anyone comes up with a useable sun light readable notepad. The Motion pad does a pretty good job but I dont think they are any longer manufactured?

[IO540]

Sumo UK sell them but extracting info from them is like trying to get PPR for a non Schengen flight out of San Sebastian ;) They would not even talk to me until they telephoned me to check I was not shipping them to Iran for designing atomic bombs (no kidding).

If you google for

sumo st312

you dig out a few resellers. I have some pricing... trying to check it out versus exact part numbers

10.4" Wireless Tablet ,Atom Z530 1.6GHz , 2GB Flash 1GB Ram Xpe OS
£1,362.34
10.4" Wireless Tablet ,Atom Z530 1.6GHz , 32GB SSD, 1GB Ram, Tablet PC
£1,528.37
3M Pix CCD Camera integrated (362/312)
£70.26
extended use internal Battery Pack (Li-Ion, 28W) aftermarket
£104.02
8.4" Outdoor Viewable LCD, add
£178.63
10.4" Outdoor Viewable LCD, add
£238.18
Extended Capacity Internal Battery Pack upgrade (only with new unit)
£23.82
1 - 2GB RAM upgrade for DT312
£59.54

i.e. basically about £2k for a sunlight readable ST312 10" tablet with a 32GB SSD and a GPRS/3G radio (handy for loading up approach plates which somebody emailed you before the flight, etc).

A very similar price to the Motion LS800 I currently use but this is a much slicker product AFAICT without actually seeing the real final-spec item.

I did have a play with them at Friedrichshafen, where a very arrogant "aviation tablet shop" outfit was flogging them off the Jepp stand for a cool 2900 euros for the very basic version ;) but since they were not interested in discussing details I could not establish the exact part numbers. I think the ST312 is the one to go for, with the silly corner rubbers removed. These are very light and the display is the best you have ever seen.

I am sure they are custom made in China - just like the Xplore IX104 and prob99 the LS800.

Motion is out of this game now.

[stickandrudderman]

Interesting.
I'm currently looking at creating a new panel for an LAA fitout.
Something along these lines:
http://http://www.aldini.it/galleries/interiors/index.html

It's not something I profess to know much about....

[IO540]

There is a lot of avionics for homebuilts. I don't think you would gain anything by integrating a tablet computer into the panel, though it would probably save a bit of money.

The main application for tablet computers in the cockpit is to display approach plates, or run a VFR chart. But you won't be needing approach plates on a homebuilt (except in an emergency, I guess).

[NickWright]

Hopefully there will be screen protectors for the iPad and if these are like the ones for the phone they will also have a more matt surface so there is a chance this might help. It's a good toy otherwise.

[IRRenewal]

It's a good toy otherwise.

Indeed, they are toys.

[stevelup]

The iPad is going to be £400 for the entry level model - about a fifth of the cost of the device mentioned above.

It's an utterly pointless comparison.

P R E S S R E L E A S E

Breaking news... Something that costs five times as much as something else and has a specific feature executes that particular feature better than the thing costing five times less. How can this be?

E N D S

[IO540]

It's called "life" :)

The sunlight readable screen costs probably £10 extra to make. It is a set of polarised layers, AIUI, with some fancy chemicals in there.

They generally sell the screen for an extra £200-300.

The biggest problem is not the £200-300 though. It is the fact that the marketing departments have decided to offer this screen only on devices which are already heavily price-inflated, for vertical markets (warehousing, delivery services, etc) where huge discounts are then given to industrial users who buy say 1000 of them. That's why these things have e.g. barcode scanners as options.

It's a bit like turboprop engines are offered only on pressurised airframes which will always cost £2M+ (well not quite; there is the Caravan etc but you get the idea).

The other problem is that these screens are not very good for watching movies, so Jobs is not going to offer a sunlight readable Ipad.

In the end, a tablet which is not sunlight readable is as useful to a pilot as a chocolate teapot. Probably 99% of airways IFR is done in VMC which in daytime is very bright sunlight.

I print out approach plates, enroute chart sections, etc, but I usually have no printer (or a means of printing) when on the move, so a tablet which can display a large database of plates is the only way to deal with a multiple sequence of diversions.

The other approach is an e-book reader like these (http://www.irextechnologies.com/products) but none of them can run any aviation software; they are purely PDF readers. And since the Ipad cannot run any Europe-relevant aviation software either, it is aiming for the same market. Except it isn't sunlight readable whereas the e-book readers are totally sunlight readable.

[Slopey]

A grossly over-hyped product for aviation.

I've never ever seen it hyped as being useful for aviation beyond a few queries in the forums.

It's for consuming media, around your house. It seems a little unfair to criticise it for something it's not designed to do. :confused:

If someone writes aviation software for it, that's their perogative. I could write aviation software for a ZX Spectrum - doesn't mean it'll be any use in a cockpit, or that it's been pitched as such.

[S-Works]

I can also now confirm that it is perfectly readable in the cockpit. Having played with it for a few days now testing some EFB software I can say that in my opinion it has the potential to to be a winner.

Of course of you fly a low wing goldfish bowl then anything might prove a little difficult to read, but certainly in my Cessna and my proper work aircraft it has been terrific.

I will post some pics when I get a chance.

[Fuji Abound]

SoCal - the point you make is exactly right.

However, it does seem odd that Apple did not consider sun light readability. It seems to me the iPad is very much sold as a lifestyle product - the sort of thing you might sit in the garden to watch a movie or read a book and yes even on your lounger on the beach and not just in the 7.30 carriage to London Bridge attempting to impress the other passengers.

C'est la vie - it isnt sunlight readable and whether or not it might have found a niche as a pilot's companion the fact remains it would appear to be useless in the cockpit. The thread is therefore justifed as it saves people considering it as an option and being disappointed. :ok:

(Edited to add Bose has an alternative point of view, so perhaps the jury is still out - my opinion was based entirely on the rest of this thread and the video)

[IO540]

There is a lot of aviation software being developed in the USA - facilitiated by them having free and cockpit-usable approach plates and free enroute charts out there (here we have neither of those).

One company out there has a deal with Jepp and that one could thus offer European coverage. But at Jepp prices, say £2500 for Europe, per year, this is not a popular option in GA.

[2high2fastagain]

Further to the comments about the Samsung Q1. A couple of years back I went for the ASUS R2H - it has a built in GPS. It's a shame you can't get it any more. Mine is now running Windows 7 with the GPS driving Memory Map showing half mill charts. I also use the excellent Skydemon planning software on it (great for diversions when landing away if you have a wifi or 3G connection). I also download my EDM 700 data directly. It even came with a 3.5 hour battery. Only major downside is the usual screen in sunlight problem. Shame how sometimes things sometimes go backwards rather than forwards.

[S-Works]

I am in discussions with Jepp at the moment to use their data both as an extension to Jeppview subscriptions and as a stand alone data source at attractive rates. The discussions are encouraging. I am hoping we will have a viable app with over air updates plus a flight planning as an extension of a current popular app by mid summer.

[IO540]

SolidFX (http://www.solidfx.com/SOLIDFX_eCharts.htm) already have a worldwide deal with Jepp.

Currently they are doing it on the Irex e-book (http://www.irextechnologies.com/irexdr1000), and they will soon be (according to U.S. reports from trade shows) doing an I-pad version.

The cost of the download service is suprisingly low - provided you already are a full-price Jepp subscriber for the applicable geographical area i.e. about 2500 quid for all of "Europe" ;)

There is no cheap way to do this stuff, if you want Jepp. And if you don't want Jepp, you can buy that Irex e-book reader and download the free EAD plates....

Maybe Jepp UK is not aware of what Jepp USA is doing?

In fairness to Jepp, they have no way to cut prices for a different delivery mechanism, because "IFR is IFR" and it's all the same whether in a PA28 or a B747. In theory they could produce plates without Cat C/D data but it would be daft for them to duplicate their database maintenance effort for the 4-digit number of European IFR pilots - most of whom get free plates anyway.

[S-Works]

Jepp UK(Germany actually) are fully aware of what the US are doing with SolidFX. I have the new solidFX unit sat in front of me and it is not a bad bit of kit, but is expensive and limited in functionality. Something like an iPad adds considerable value add over the SolidFX.

Jepp will sell the data to anyone, but they have to demonstrate that they have a containable platform to prevent sharing of data. The closed nature of the iPad makes it a viable proposition and why they are prepared to enter into negotiation.

Jepp make there money from selling the data not developing the software, they have clearly stated that they would support as many platforms as possible if the platform meets the security and manageability requirements.

I actually think this is quite an exciting time and we could be starting to see the EFB develop into something useful. Devices like the iPad open up a realistic path to this data and should not be discounted so readily.

[AdamFrisch]

But I don't get the whole Jeppesen thing. Jeppesen obviously gets the app plates from each countries individual equivalent to the CAA, right? Probably for free. So why not as a competitor go directly to the CAA's of this world and get the plates and bypass the whole Jeppesen overpriced madness?

[S-Works]

Because it is vastly time consuming to do so. It requires a department full of people to extract and compile the data and then turn it into a common format.

It would need some serious effort to get into which is sadly why Jepp remain the current game in town sadly.

[Fuji Abound]

gCap already do this for category A aircraft for the whole of the UK and near Europe for a very reasonable cost in electronic or paper form although I dont think you can integrate the electronic form with a GPS in the same way as Jepp does.

[IO540]

I always thought GCAP were running a difficult business model, because with their limited geographical coverage they are really addressing just the IMC Rated population, which is IMHO maximum 1k-2k IFR-active pilots, and it is so easy for these to download the free plates, or (as many do) get Jepp plates from a commercial pilot friend.

But even if GCAP did say all of Europe, they would still be facing a problem:

- all seriously commercially operating pilots get worldwide Jeppview at work, which is the de facto world standard, and which is purchased without a question

- of the private pilots who fly IFR internationally, many have commercial pilot friends who give them Jepp plates

- some private pilots are willing/able to pay for Jeppview; these tend to buy what they actually need, and borrow plates, or download the free national plates for the less common trips

This leaves just private pilots not willing/able to pay for Jeppview, but who don't like the national plates.

The customer base is not going to be great... I cannot believe they would have as much as 1k customers, and that's assuming they covered all of Europe.

I've been reading some stuff on American pilot forums, where they have been testing the Ipad. The general tone is that it is OK if you can eliminate reflections, by orientating the LCD. This is the same issue as any shiny laptop.

[Fuji Abound]

I0540 - yes I would agree so far as Gcap is concerned although I do know a little more about them than we have discussed here.

and yes, since it would seem the iPad does not use either of the two available screen technologies that reduce reflection I would be surprised if the iPad was any better, or any worse, than the average notepad or laptop - in short not very good. Whilse some of the add on screen filters improve matters marginally in my experience the improvement is hardly worth the effort. It is interesting that Bose thinks otherwise based on his experience of actually using an iPad in the cockpit so perhaps they have managed to tweak the existing technology a little - I understand the screens are reasonably bright and use a higher than average resolution both of which might help just a very little.

The Garmin and Avidyne panel screens are really superb. I think the Garmin is marginally better but I bet some one will be along to tell me both companies use the same panel! I wonder. Interestingly in the marine wrold Raymarine have produced some very good sun light readable products for quite a while that are very well priced. Again they are not portable but it does demonstrate the basic panel can be built into to this type of product without a significant increase in the unit cost.

[S-Works]

I think it is a case of the cockpit that you use it in. The iPad has proven to be easy to read in sunlight as the backlight is amazing. In my high wing Cessna it is perfectly readable and the same in the Dornier. I should imagine in a fishbowl type low wing like a TB20 or a DA40 that the reflections without a screen protector would make it more reflection sensitive. The screen protector that I used on the unit is actually quite matte but I preferred it glossy so removed it.

As I said, probably horses for courses, but my experience so far has been very good. I will report as I progress with it.

[Fuji Abound]

Bose

Yes, fair comment.

I use a notepad very occasionally - in the 42 it is always difficult to read whereas in the Cirrus its better. Glass canopies are always a problem. I wouldnt say the TB20 is really any different from the Cirrus mind you or your Cessna.

[dublinpilot]

The Garmin and Avidyne panel screens are really superb. I think the Garmin is marginally better but I bet some one will be along to tell me both companies use the same panel! I wonder. Interestingly in the marine wrold Raymarine have produced some very good sun light readable products for quite a while that are very well priced. Again they are not portable but it does demonstrate the basic panel can be built into to this type of product without a significant increase in the unit cost.

In all fairness these are powered by the aircraft systems. Most of the mobile units produced are designed to run off battery power, and the manufacturers face the issue where increased brightness results in either very short battery life, or requirement for a much larger battery.

A much larger battery = more expensive and heavier, both of which generally reduce the appeal of the units.

For most users of these devices, sunlight readability isn't a major concern....it's just us pilots that see an issue.

Some of the car nav units, have very good sunlight readable screens (high end Navigons for example) because they are designed to be used where sunlight gets at them (car windscreen), but obviously these are too small for showing approach plates on.

dp

[Fuji Abound]

Dp

Yes, again I agree.

However, it is possible to produce very good and very lgiht sun light readable screens. For example I have seen the Motion notepad in operation and while it is no where near as good as the G1000 or Avidyne screen it is a great deal better than other notepads and more than useable.

It is interesting on the PocketFms forum despite various suggestions no one seems to have yet found a reasonable portable screen for in cockpit use that is any larger than the car SatNav format (with the exception of one or two high end notepads like the Motion) - unless I have missed the posts.

I would have thought there would be a market for a slightly larger screen for in car sat navs. I have always thought the ideal format would be around A5. I reckon a light weight unit with pretty good battery life could be produced (in fact come to think of it around the same size as an iPad) but presumably no one feels there is a worth while market (and maybe they are correct).

[IO540]

The TB20 is not a goldfish bowl. Most of the ceiling is opaque, and grey in colour. This is typical of most low wing planes. But sunshine is sunshine; it gets everywhere and sometimes - at high altitude - I struggle to keep the stuff out, so I have suction pad mounted sunshields (Halfords) on the side windows.

The Diamonds are different, as is a Tomahawk and a few others.

The construction of a "sunlight readable" LCD is not something I have yet sussed out but it is a kind of a normal LCD with several layers stuck on the front. The whole lot is polarised so that at the end you the the image but the reflections of incident light get dumped. Some salesman was telling me that if you peel off these layers, you don't see the image at all, which I found bizzare, but it may be true. The extra cost of all this is about £200 on most tablets which offer this as an option. I am certain that the G1000 and similar glass avionics use this technology too, although if you have unlimited power then you can achieve any desired contrast simply with a powerful backlight, and a darkened front layer.

There is a pile of superb tablets around now, but nearly all of them don't offer this option.

The I-Pad will sure find uses but it is IMHO grossly over-rated for European aviation. It has loads more applications in GA in the USA, due to the abundance of free material out there. If they did it with a decent display, it would be superb.

[VC10 Rib22]

The Anywheremap Duo has a 7" sunlight-readable screen that can be used for many aviation applications, including approach plates, though it may be that others would prefer a larger screen. The device is based on a Viliv X70 but be aware that the sunlight-readable screen isn't available on normal retail versions, rather, they come on bulk orders only as far as I can ascertain. Anywheremap aren't interested in the European market but I would imagine there is nothing to stop you from trying to source one of these sunlight-readable devices and load European approach plates and other applications on it.

Anywhere Map - Aviation GPS with Weather (http://www.anywheremap.com/ultramobile.aspx)

Just a thought.

VC10 Rib22:ok:

[IO540]

That's really neat, VC10.

Just wish I was a bit younger :( and could read an approach plate on a 7" screen :)

[birrddog]

IO540, now that you are much more wealthy and mature you can afford there 12" version, at double the price for you it would still be cheap as chips :ok:

[A and C]

I am veiwing this thread with much interest as the only EFB I have ever used was c**p and that was in an airliner flight deck........... I on occassions so nearly opend the DV window and sent the thing crashing to the tarmac!

At the moment the answer for touring by light aircraft is one of the notebooks and a small printer, its all a lot smaller than a Jepp set and the printed plates won't fail when you most need them.

I look forward to the reliable EFB but for this end of GA I think it is a long way off.

[Fuji Abound]

For a bit of fun I was the UK (and Europe) agent for Anywhere map for a while. The software was excellent, but the coverage of Europe was poor. As the earlier poster commented they werent really interested in the European market - and I dont blame them. For me it was an eye opeing experience of the extent most pilots here want something for nothing. In the end PocketFms produces as good (if not now better) software and their maps have always been far superior so far as European coverage is concerned. The point of the post is that Anywhere were a very good company with which to deal and the discounts were generous. I had a good look at their notepad - it would seem to be an excellent product, although I never got to see one in the "flesh".

[dublinpilot]

In the end PocketFms produces as good (if not now better) software and their maps have always been far superior so far as European coverage is concerned.

Thanks for that nice comment :ok:

[glider12000]

If you are a current JeppView subscriber, the SolidFX option is a lot better as the cost reduces substantially for the download.

[vanHorck]

Here we go!

MotionX? by Fullpower | (http://gps.motionx.com/ipad/overview/)

Motionx GPS HD op de iPad: wereldwijd navigeren met topografische kaarten - iPad - iPad Planet (http://www.ipadplanet.nl/5465/motionx-gps-hd-op-de-ipad-wereldwijd-navigeren-met-topografische-kaarten/)

[russellpeters]

i have been trying to figure out what are the best apps to load onto my ipad to use as an efb . i have access to jeppview . am an airline capt 737 . thanks in advance .

[IO540]

The Ipad won't run any PC (windoze) software, e.g. Jepp.

It will run only apps specially written for it.

If you want a tablet computer which runs Jeppview then you need one which runs windoze XP or similar.

[g21agoose]

I bought an Ipad for my daughter when they had just been released and I completely disagree with any negative comments towards the device. It is intuitive, light, fun, and far cheaper than the equivalent laptop.

An amazing device- my daughter, who is almost 8, loves it- and for my my part, unless you need to do some serious business/ typing, you are better off with an Ipad than a laptop.

I paid $646 + a carrying case. The equivalent Macbook would have been $500+ more.

I cannot underestimate how great I think this device is (and completely different from Collins 21 etc, I am not comparing the two) and I would, and have recommended them to my friends vs a laptop.

My 2c.

[S-Works]

I am using Citrix to access Jeppview & Flitestar from an iPad and it works fine. It also give me access to AFPEx as well.

I have a solidFx unit which is quite funky but I am definitely weighted in favour of the iPad because of the extra functionality.