Flying with a safety pilot, logging hours....

[CraigyD]

Right, here goes.....

I want to go to the US next year to put a SES rating on my FAA PPL. Going to train with Kenmore air who have said they will hire their Super Cub on floats to me after obtaining the rating to do some hour building towards my CPL. However, for insurance requirments, I need a safety pilot with me. As far as logging time goes, this seems to be a bit of a can of worms (or is to me at least :ugh:!)

Reading the FARs it would seem (emphasis on the word seem :uhoh:), as I am the sole manipulator of the controls I can log the time as PIC. Kenmore instructors also said I can log it as PIC as I hold the rating required to be PIC.

I called the CAA to see what they have to say about the whole safety pilot thing and sraight away the lady said it would be classed as dual. Now, I didn't have a copy of lasors in front of me but as far as im concerned I will be carrying out all duties required of the PIC to log the time as such as listed in A/44. Id just have someone along for the ride for insurance reasons.

My question is, why is it that the CAA say flight with a safety pilot must be logged as dual??!! (Just tried calling but they are shut so thought Id see if someone here has a definative answer!)

Hope this doesn't seem a stupid question!

Regards

Craig

[OpenCirrus619]

Since you're flying on an FAA PPL in FAA land I would go by the FAA rules.

OC619

[S-Works]

Just don't try and count it towards a JAR CPL.....

[modelman]

I guess it depends a lot on whether the 'safety pilot' is qualified to instruct ( on that or any a/c) or is a competent but unqualified observer trusted by the a/c operator.
It's P1 if you are the sole manipator of the controls but I have no idea how this works with FAA
MM

[172driver]

You are adding a rating to an FAA license. FAA rules apply, the CAA have nothing to do or say here.

[CraigyD]

I may be confusing people here a bit...

Yes, rating is FAA in FAA land on an FAA licence BUT I want to use the hours towards a JAR CPL.

Basically want to use this as an interesting way to finish my hour building rather than continuing just drilling holes in the sky (also I want to fly seaplanes commercially so need as much expirience as I can get on floats and advice given by a few professional seaplane pilots is to hour build on float planes!).

Want a challenge and an adventure but red tape prevails around every bloody corner!

Craig

[BillieBob]

You are adding a rating to an FAA license. FAA rules apply, the CAA have nothing to do or say here.They have if the hours are to count towards a JAA licence or rating. It is hours as PIC that are required for licence issue, not P1 (whatever that is). The definition of Pilot in Command, according to the ANO, is "a person who for the time being is in charge of the piloting of an aircraft without being under the direction of any other pilot in the aircraft", it has nothing at all to do with being the sole manipulator of the controls. It is not unusual to be PIC of an aircraft and never touch the controls.

It is the CAA's view that if a safety pilot is required to be carried then the flight is being conducted under his/her direction and so the time does not meet the definition of PIC and cannot be counted towards the minimum required for licensing purposes. Plenty of people have been caught out by this in the past and have had their licence applications rejected until they have obtained extra PIC experience to meet the required minima, which is why you got such an immediate answer from Gatwick.

[Pace]

Craig

I would suggest you got the lady on a bad day or she plucked the answer from her head.

Once you have the rating you are rated to fly as PIC for legal purposes.

Insurance requirements are variable and the hours required raised to bring down the insurance cost.

If I was you I would take the safety pilot to cover the insurance and once you have dispensed of the aircraft in one piece forget he was ever there.
As to referencing him in your log book you could always do it later ;)

Pace

[Pace]

Socal

correct me if wrong but under the FAA he doesnt have to keep a log only for validation of his currency and licence requirements.

Once he has the rating that is where it stops.

If it was a requirement of the rating that he had to fly say 10 hrs dual before solo then yes but this is purely an insurance matter.

Pace

[SNS3Guppy]

Once you have completed the rating, it becomes a gray area as the aircraft itself does NOT mandate the presence of a Safety Pilot. In this instance, the need for a Safety Pilot appears to be more a restriction on the Flight School's insurance policy itself.

There is no grey area. The "safety pilot" is someone that Kenmore Air wants aboard. So far as any regulatory body is concerned, you're a rated pilot, flying with a passenger. You're the pilot in command. Whatever you do do please insurance requirements, or the company renting the airplane, is irrelevant so far as regulations go, and there's nothing grey about this.

Any Safety Pilot has to be annotated as such in the Pilot's logbook under FAA regs.


Wrong. The "safety pilot" in this case has no regulatory basis, and is, so far as the regulation is concerned, nothing more than a passenger. The "safety pilot" isn't acting as pilot in command, and isn't ultimately responsible for the safe outcome of the flight. That's the job of the PIC...which in this case is the renter, CraigyD.

No regulatory requirement exists for the "safety pilot" to be included in CraigyD's logbook. You're confusing the term "safety pilot" with the requirement of 14 CFR 91.109(b), which reads:

§ 91.109 Flight instruction; Simulated instrument flight and certain flight tests.

(b) No person may operate a civil aircraft in simulated instrument flight unless—

(1) The other control seat is occupied by a safety pilot who possesses at least a private pilot certificate with category and class ratings appropriate to the aircraft being flown.

(2) The safety pilot has adequate vision forward and to each side of the aircraft, or a competent observer in the aircraft adequately supplements the vision of the safety pilot; and

(3) Except in the case of lighter-than-air aircraft, that aircraft is equipped with fully functioning dual controls. However, simulated instrument flight may be conducted in a single-engine airplane, equipped with a single, functioning, throwover control wheel, in place of fixed, dual controls of the elevator and ailerons, when—

(i) The safety pilot has determined that the flight can be conducted safely; and

(ii) The person manipulating the controls has at least a private pilot certificate with appropriate category and class ratings.


CraigyD appears to be referring to renting a seaplane to gain some seaplane experience...not engaging in simulated instrument flight. A safety pilot, per the regulation, refers to the safety pilot in a simulated instrument operation.

So far as the CAA is concerned, the "safety pilot" in the context of this thread is nothing more than a passenger. So far as the FAA is concerned, the "safety pilot" is nothing more than a passenger. In reality, the "safety pilot"...is nothing more than a passenger. The "safety pilot" is not a required crew member, need not be recorded in the logbook if one doesn't desire to do so, and has no bearing on the logging of the time.

The UK CAA might adopt a different attitude as to whether that time was in fact PIC.



Why will the CAA care? The CAA won't. CraigyD gets rated for single engine sea, and rents a single engine seaplane. End of story. CraigyD logs time in a single engine sea airplane. He has no requirement under the regulation to have a "safety pilot" and need not log the presence of such a person, nor report their presence. If CraigyD is acting as PIC, that's the beginning and end of it.

[B2N2]

Sorry Socal but I have to go with SNS3G here;
not required to log the safetypilot required by the school.

Strictly speaking (as far as the CAA is concerned) the safetypilot can not hold a Flight instructor rating because that can be construed as having received dual given.

CraigyD does the school have anybody they consider to be qualified enough who is NOT an Instructor?

By the way, it is virtually impossible to rent a Seaplane solo in the US.
At least I don't know of any place that will.

[what next]

Hello!

The "safety pilot" is someone that Kenmore Air wants aboard.

Yes. And by european (JAR, whatever) standards, it is the operator (here Kenmore Air) who nominates the pilot in command in case both pilots are qualified to fly the aircraft. So it really depends if the operator regards this "safety pilot" (an undefined designation in european, JAR whatever aviation law) as an interested passenger/advisor or as the person in charge when it comes to decision making. Who handles the controls is completely irrelevant. If the "safety pilot" has the authority to take decisions, he is the pilot in command.

But honestly, I wouldn't care at all, if I were Craig. Just log the hours under your name, exactly like everybody else does!

Regards, max

[dublinpilot]

Who is the pilot in command?

What happens if the 'safety pilot' isn't happy with something you are doing? Do they take over and continue the flight themselves, or is all they can do is to report you to the rental company after landing?

[Pace]

DublinPilot

The safety pilot would be someone who is there to meet the insurance hour requirements in the event of a mishap.

Ie if something happened he would claim to be PIC flying from the right in all reality he would be sandbagging.

The only problem there if there was an incident is that the insurance may question who was actually flying if the sandbag wasnt an instructor.
Instructor or no instructor do the flights and after no incident chuck the sandbag out of the picture not the plane :O

Pace

[S-Works]

And is the 'safety' pilot logging time?

[PPRuNe Pop]

You will not get or more definitive answer than the one from SNS3Guppy. He is spot on. You log the time, the safety pilot is a 'passenger' and required by insurance. Fair enough, but you are PIC.

[mad_jock]

I would watch it though even though you have signed the tech log as PIC.

A second hand story I heard was one poor sod thought he had covered his backside by insisting that he signed the tech log etc so he could log the hours. Did his 100 hours very cheap twin time and went home happy.

His mate 3 weeks later went back to the same organisiation to fly the same plane to discover that they were running 2 tech logs for the JAR hour builders. You guessed it as soon as the person went home there entrys were removed and the US pilot was on paper the PIC. Apparently there was a bit of an eruption when he sneaked the tech log and photo copied it after he was finished.

[CraigyD]

Thanks everyone for your replies. Seems an interesting debate and has given me a few questions to raise with the CAA come monday morning when i'll give them a call again.

I think I will go down the route of saying, as the "safety pilot" is there to fulfill insurance requirements and that I will be the decision maker so to speak as I will be appropriately rated to do so, why can I not log the time as PIC.

I will also get in touch with Kenmore again, find out about the tech log issue raised earlier and find out who the "safety pilot" will be, ie, will they be an instructor (i'd guess the answer to this is probably yes though).

I think I might also say to them how do they propose I build time to get the expirience on seaplanes when, as also mentioned, no where will hire you one for solo use! I've been in touch with the very few schools that offer "solo" hire and they all want a safety pilot on board :sad:!

(Why can't I just be normal and do things the normal way!)

Cheers guys,

Craig

[Gertrude the Wombat]

I think I might also say to them how do they propose I build time to get the expirience on seaplanes when, as also mentioned, no where will hire you one for solo use!
It's not their problem, it's yours, they don't have to provide a solution.

Anyway, I thought that solo hire was possible from at least one outfit in BC?

[Whopity]

My question is, why is it that the CAA say flight with a safety pilot must be logged as dual??!! (Just tried calling but they are shut so thought Id see if someone here has a definative answer!)

Hope this doesn't seem a stupid question!

Unfortunately you spoke to someone who hadn't got a clue what they were talking about! Not uncommon, remember when you call you are probably talking to a clerk you has probably never been in an aeroplane.

In the UK a Safety pilot is someone who is carried so that they can take over if some " event" occurs to the PIC. The safety pilot cannot log anything until they assume command at which time you cease to be PIC. Dual is only logged for instructional flights.

As you are flying in the US then its their rules. If you are operating as PIC then that's what you log; if they say different, don't waste your money.

[CraigyD]

Who am I best off speaking to then, if when I call I speak to a "clerk"?

My back up plan is to get the SES rating this year then next year do a tail dragger rating and build time on those. Still good fun, just, not on floats..... Will have to use similar skills flying them it seems (rudder, rudder and more rudder from what I have read!)

Again, thanks guys for posting on my thread.

Now, im off to enjoy the sunshire on my 'volcano day off' (Im cabin crew with Easy!).

Regards,

Craig

[Will88]

Don't speak to anyone at the Belgrano, and get the hours logged!

Stop worrying about it.

[Pace]

Craig

Are you one of these people who need to speak to someone about the colour of socks your gonna wear in the day?

Read Guppies response you have no reason to speak to anyone just get on with your original plan and enjoy it.

Pace

[englishal]

There is no grey area. The "safety pilot" is someone that Kenmore Air wants aboard. So far as any regulatory body is concerned, you're a rated pilot, flying with a passenger. You're the pilot in command. Whatever you do do please insurance requirements, or the company renting the airplane, is irrelevant so far as regulations go, and there's nothing grey about this.
There is a grey area if the "safety pilot" wants to log time too. If so then he must be an instructor, and in which case although you can log PIC as per the FARs as far (boom boom) as the CAA are concerned, if this is for the issue of a JAR license then this time is theoretically DUAL (as an FI is onboard).

If said SP doesn't want to log time, then so be it, you are free to log PIC and you will keep the CAA happy. I suspect though that they will, especially if an FI.

[SNS3Guppy]

Again, there's nothing grey about it.

This flight is to take place in the USA. There is no safety pilot required for this operation in the USA. The pilot will be rated (category and class: Airplane, Single-Engine, Sea), and therefore does not require a "safety pilot." That the facility renting the airplane requires a safety pilot has no bearing on the legal requirement for one...the safety pilot is a passenger. Period.

Whether the safety pilot wishes to log time or not is irrelevant to the original poster. Whether the safety pilot can or cannot log the time is irrelevant to the original poster.

If the safety pilot is an instructor, he or she cannot log the time unless he or she is providing instruction. This is a different scenario than the one presented by the original poster. The original poster didn't present an instruction scenario, but rather one in which he rents an airplane. In the scenario presented, the original poster isn't experienced enough in seaplanes to meet insurance requirements, and the rental facility wishes to send a more experienced pilot along to keep an eye on things.

The original poster acts as the pilot in command, and therefore has equal authority with God over the safe conduct of the flight. The "safety pilot" does not. Ultimate authority rests with the pilot in command.

If the safety pilot wishes to log time, merely being an instructor is insufficient. The safety pilot must be providing instruction, in which case the "safety pilot" isn't a safety pilot at all, but is acting in the capacity of instructor.

If the safety pilot is not an instructor, and the flight is conducted under visual conditions, the safety pilot is not required, and may only log the time if he or she is sole manipulator of the controls. Whereas the "safety pilot" is neither pilot in command or sole manipulator of the controls, and we're talking about a situation that isn't instructional, the safety pilot isn't entitled to log the time (not that it's relevant to whether the original poster may log the time).

What it is not, however, is a grey area. The original poster isn't required under the regulation to disclose the presence of a passenger, let alone the name of the passenger, nor the qualifications of the passenger...and the safety pilot is a passenger.