Flying with a safety pilot, logging hours....
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Flying with a safety pilot, logging hours....
Right, here goes.....
I want to go to the US next year to put a SES rating on my FAA PPL. Going to train with Kenmore air who have said they will hire their Super Cub on floats to me after obtaining the rating to do some hour building towards my CPL. However, for insurance requirments, I need a safety pilot with me. As far as logging time goes, this seems to be a bit of a can of worms (or is to me at least !)
Reading the FARs it would seem (emphasis on the word seem ), as I am the sole manipulator of the controls I can log the time as PIC. Kenmore instructors also said I can log it as PIC as I hold the rating required to be PIC.
I called the CAA to see what they have to say about the whole safety pilot thing and sraight away the lady said it would be classed as dual. Now, I didn't have a copy of lasors in front of me but as far as im concerned I will be carrying out all duties required of the PIC to log the time as such as listed in A/44. Id just have someone along for the ride for insurance reasons.
My question is, why is it that the CAA say flight with a safety pilot must be logged as dual??!! (Just tried calling but they are shut so thought Id see if someone here has a definative answer!)
Hope this doesn't seem a stupid question!
Regards
Craig
I want to go to the US next year to put a SES rating on my FAA PPL. Going to train with Kenmore air who have said they will hire their Super Cub on floats to me after obtaining the rating to do some hour building towards my CPL. However, for insurance requirments, I need a safety pilot with me. As far as logging time goes, this seems to be a bit of a can of worms (or is to me at least !)
Reading the FARs it would seem (emphasis on the word seem ), as I am the sole manipulator of the controls I can log the time as PIC. Kenmore instructors also said I can log it as PIC as I hold the rating required to be PIC.
I called the CAA to see what they have to say about the whole safety pilot thing and sraight away the lady said it would be classed as dual. Now, I didn't have a copy of lasors in front of me but as far as im concerned I will be carrying out all duties required of the PIC to log the time as such as listed in A/44. Id just have someone along for the ride for insurance reasons.
My question is, why is it that the CAA say flight with a safety pilot must be logged as dual??!! (Just tried calling but they are shut so thought Id see if someone here has a definative answer!)
Hope this doesn't seem a stupid question!
Regards
Craig
Last edited by CraigyD; 16th Apr 2010 at 16:33.
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Dual os P1s
I guess it depends a lot on whether the 'safety pilot' is qualified to instruct ( on that or any a/c) or is a competent but unqualified observer trusted by the a/c operator.
It's P1 if you are the sole manipator of the controls but I have no idea how this works with FAA
MM
It's P1 if you are the sole manipator of the controls but I have no idea how this works with FAA
MM
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I may be confusing people here a bit...
Yes, rating is FAA in FAA land on an FAA licence BUT I want to use the hours towards a JAR CPL.
Basically want to use this as an interesting way to finish my hour building rather than continuing just drilling holes in the sky (also I want to fly seaplanes commercially so need as much expirience as I can get on floats and advice given by a few professional seaplane pilots is to hour build on float planes!).
Want a challenge and an adventure but red tape prevails around every bloody corner!
Craig
Yes, rating is FAA in FAA land on an FAA licence BUT I want to use the hours towards a JAR CPL.
Basically want to use this as an interesting way to finish my hour building rather than continuing just drilling holes in the sky (also I want to fly seaplanes commercially so need as much expirience as I can get on floats and advice given by a few professional seaplane pilots is to hour build on float planes!).
Want a challenge and an adventure but red tape prevails around every bloody corner!
Craig
You are adding a rating to an FAA license. FAA rules apply, the CAA have nothing to do or say here.
It is the CAA's view that if a safety pilot is required to be carried then the flight is being conducted under his/her direction and so the time does not meet the definition of PIC and cannot be counted towards the minimum required for licensing purposes. Plenty of people have been caught out by this in the past and have had their licence applications rejected until they have obtained extra PIC experience to meet the required minima, which is why you got such an immediate answer from Gatwick.
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Craig
I would suggest you got the lady on a bad day or she plucked the answer from her head.
Once you have the rating you are rated to fly as PIC for legal purposes.
Insurance requirements are variable and the hours required raised to bring down the insurance cost.
If I was you I would take the safety pilot to cover the insurance and once you have dispensed of the aircraft in one piece forget he was ever there.
As to referencing him in your log book you could always do it later
Pace
I would suggest you got the lady on a bad day or she plucked the answer from her head.
Once you have the rating you are rated to fly as PIC for legal purposes.
Insurance requirements are variable and the hours required raised to bring down the insurance cost.
If I was you I would take the safety pilot to cover the insurance and once you have dispensed of the aircraft in one piece forget he was ever there.
As to referencing him in your log book you could always do it later
Pace
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Socal
correct me if wrong but under the FAA he doesnt have to keep a log only for validation of his currency and licence requirements.
Once he has the rating that is where it stops.
If it was a requirement of the rating that he had to fly say 10 hrs dual before solo then yes but this is purely an insurance matter.
Pace
correct me if wrong but under the FAA he doesnt have to keep a log only for validation of his currency and licence requirements.
Once he has the rating that is where it stops.
If it was a requirement of the rating that he had to fly say 10 hrs dual before solo then yes but this is purely an insurance matter.
Pace
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Once you have completed the rating, it becomes a gray area as the aircraft itself does NOT mandate the presence of a Safety Pilot. In this instance, the need for a Safety Pilot appears to be more a restriction on the Flight School's insurance policy itself.
Any Safety Pilot has to be annotated as such in the Pilot's logbook under FAA regs.
No regulatory requirement exists for the "safety pilot" to be included in CraigyD's logbook. You're confusing the term "safety pilot" with the requirement of 14 CFR 91.109(b), which reads:
§ 91.109 Flight instruction; Simulated instrument flight and certain flight tests.
(b) No person may operate a civil aircraft in simulated instrument flight unless—
(1) The other control seat is occupied by a safety pilot who possesses at least a private pilot certificate with category and class ratings appropriate to the aircraft being flown.
(2) The safety pilot has adequate vision forward and to each side of the aircraft, or a competent observer in the aircraft adequately supplements the vision of the safety pilot; and
(3) Except in the case of lighter-than-air aircraft, that aircraft is equipped with fully functioning dual controls. However, simulated instrument flight may be conducted in a single-engine airplane, equipped with a single, functioning, throwover control wheel, in place of fixed, dual controls of the elevator and ailerons, when—
(i) The safety pilot has determined that the flight can be conducted safely; and
(ii) The person manipulating the controls has at least a private pilot certificate with appropriate category and class ratings.
(b) No person may operate a civil aircraft in simulated instrument flight unless—
(1) The other control seat is occupied by a safety pilot who possesses at least a private pilot certificate with category and class ratings appropriate to the aircraft being flown.
(2) The safety pilot has adequate vision forward and to each side of the aircraft, or a competent observer in the aircraft adequately supplements the vision of the safety pilot; and
(3) Except in the case of lighter-than-air aircraft, that aircraft is equipped with fully functioning dual controls. However, simulated instrument flight may be conducted in a single-engine airplane, equipped with a single, functioning, throwover control wheel, in place of fixed, dual controls of the elevator and ailerons, when—
(i) The safety pilot has determined that the flight can be conducted safely; and
(ii) The person manipulating the controls has at least a private pilot certificate with appropriate category and class ratings.
So far as the CAA is concerned, the "safety pilot" in the context of this thread is nothing more than a passenger. So far as the FAA is concerned, the "safety pilot" is nothing more than a passenger. In reality, the "safety pilot"...is nothing more than a passenger. The "safety pilot" is not a required crew member, need not be recorded in the logbook if one doesn't desire to do so, and has no bearing on the logging of the time.
The UK CAA might adopt a different attitude as to whether that time was in fact PIC.
Sorry Socal but I have to go with SNS3G here;
not required to log the safetypilot required by the school.
Strictly speaking (as far as the CAA is concerned) the safetypilot can not hold a Flight instructor rating because that can be construed as having received dual given.
CraigyD does the school have anybody they consider to be qualified enough who is NOT an Instructor?
By the way, it is virtually impossible to rent a Seaplane solo in the US.
At least I don't know of any place that will.
not required to log the safetypilot required by the school.
Strictly speaking (as far as the CAA is concerned) the safetypilot can not hold a Flight instructor rating because that can be construed as having received dual given.
CraigyD does the school have anybody they consider to be qualified enough who is NOT an Instructor?
By the way, it is virtually impossible to rent a Seaplane solo in the US.
At least I don't know of any place that will.
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Hello!
Yes. And by european (JAR, whatever) standards, it is the operator (here Kenmore Air) who nominates the pilot in command in case both pilots are qualified to fly the aircraft. So it really depends if the operator regards this "safety pilot" (an undefined designation in european, JAR whatever aviation law) as an interested passenger/advisor or as the person in charge when it comes to decision making. Who handles the controls is completely irrelevant. If the "safety pilot" has the authority to take decisions, he is the pilot in command.
But honestly, I wouldn't care at all, if I were Craig. Just log the hours under your name, exactly like everybody else does!
Regards, max
The "safety pilot" is someone that Kenmore Air wants aboard.
But honestly, I wouldn't care at all, if I were Craig. Just log the hours under your name, exactly like everybody else does!
Regards, max
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Who is the pilot in command?
What happens if the 'safety pilot' isn't happy with something you are doing? Do they take over and continue the flight themselves, or is all they can do is to report you to the rental company after landing?
What happens if the 'safety pilot' isn't happy with something you are doing? Do they take over and continue the flight themselves, or is all they can do is to report you to the rental company after landing?
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DublinPilot
The safety pilot would be someone who is there to meet the insurance hour requirements in the event of a mishap.
Ie if something happened he would claim to be PIC flying from the right in all reality he would be sandbagging.
The only problem there if there was an incident is that the insurance may question who was actually flying if the sandbag wasnt an instructor.
Instructor or no instructor do the flights and after no incident chuck the sandbag out of the picture not the plane
Pace
The safety pilot would be someone who is there to meet the insurance hour requirements in the event of a mishap.
Ie if something happened he would claim to be PIC flying from the right in all reality he would be sandbagging.
The only problem there if there was an incident is that the insurance may question who was actually flying if the sandbag wasnt an instructor.
Instructor or no instructor do the flights and after no incident chuck the sandbag out of the picture not the plane
Pace
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You will not get or more definitive answer than the one from SNS3Guppy. He is spot on. You log the time, the safety pilot is a 'passenger' and required by insurance. Fair enough, but you are PIC.
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I would watch it though even though you have signed the tech log as PIC.
A second hand story I heard was one poor sod thought he had covered his backside by insisting that he signed the tech log etc so he could log the hours. Did his 100 hours very cheap twin time and went home happy.
His mate 3 weeks later went back to the same organisiation to fly the same plane to discover that they were running 2 tech logs for the JAR hour builders. You guessed it as soon as the person went home there entrys were removed and the US pilot was on paper the PIC. Apparently there was a bit of an eruption when he sneaked the tech log and photo copied it after he was finished.
A second hand story I heard was one poor sod thought he had covered his backside by insisting that he signed the tech log etc so he could log the hours. Did his 100 hours very cheap twin time and went home happy.
His mate 3 weeks later went back to the same organisiation to fly the same plane to discover that they were running 2 tech logs for the JAR hour builders. You guessed it as soon as the person went home there entrys were removed and the US pilot was on paper the PIC. Apparently there was a bit of an eruption when he sneaked the tech log and photo copied it after he was finished.
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Thanks everyone for your replies. Seems an interesting debate and has given me a few questions to raise with the CAA come monday morning when i'll give them a call again.
I think I will go down the route of saying, as the "safety pilot" is there to fulfill insurance requirements and that I will be the decision maker so to speak as I will be appropriately rated to do so, why can I not log the time as PIC.
I will also get in touch with Kenmore again, find out about the tech log issue raised earlier and find out who the "safety pilot" will be, ie, will they be an instructor (i'd guess the answer to this is probably yes though).
I think I might also say to them how do they propose I build time to get the expirience on seaplanes when, as also mentioned, no where will hire you one for solo use! I've been in touch with the very few schools that offer "solo" hire and they all want a safety pilot on board !
(Why can't I just be normal and do things the normal way!)
Cheers guys,
Craig
I think I will go down the route of saying, as the "safety pilot" is there to fulfill insurance requirements and that I will be the decision maker so to speak as I will be appropriately rated to do so, why can I not log the time as PIC.
I will also get in touch with Kenmore again, find out about the tech log issue raised earlier and find out who the "safety pilot" will be, ie, will they be an instructor (i'd guess the answer to this is probably yes though).
I think I might also say to them how do they propose I build time to get the expirience on seaplanes when, as also mentioned, no where will hire you one for solo use! I've been in touch with the very few schools that offer "solo" hire and they all want a safety pilot on board !
(Why can't I just be normal and do things the normal way!)
Cheers guys,
Craig
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I think I might also say to them how do they propose I build time to get the expirience on seaplanes when, as also mentioned, no where will hire you one for solo use!
Anyway, I thought that solo hire was possible from at least one outfit in BC?
My question is, why is it that the CAA say flight with a safety pilot must be logged as dual??!! (Just tried calling but they are shut so thought Id see if someone here has a definative answer!)
Hope this doesn't seem a stupid question!
Hope this doesn't seem a stupid question!
In the UK a Safety pilot is someone who is carried so that they can take over if some " event" occurs to the PIC. The safety pilot cannot log anything until they assume command at which time you cease to be PIC. Dual is only logged for instructional flights.
As you are flying in the US then its their rules. If you are operating as PIC then that's what you log; if they say different, don't waste your money.