PFLs

[Molesworth 1]

Some advice needed.

I passed my PPL about 18 months ago and have just over 100 hours.

I was taught a rather unorthodox way of doing PFLS -

1. Gliding speed.
2. Have a general look out - is this generally an area with a lot of suitable fields (this is usually the case unless over water, mountains or a built up area.
3. Turn cross wind and do your restart checks.
4. At 1500 feet turn downwind. You will have by now by looking for a suitable field, but you make a final decision only when on base leg (you have two ways to turn after all.

This always works - trouble is examiners/instructors doing checkouts don't buy this and that want to know WHAT FIELD???. Pointing one out immediately wastes time - inevitably it is not the field you eventually choose.

Any thoughts?

[BackPacker]

You don't always have 2000 feet or more to make your decision. There are a lot of places where airspace restrictions force you down to below 1500 feet. In those cases you'd better have a quick look around, select a field and then make the best of it. 1000 feet is not enough to set up a normal circuit, particularly not if you want to try some restart drills too. Unless you're in a motorglider.

Ultimately, what an instructor wants to see is that you make the best use of the available altitude/time you have to perform whatever tasks are necessary (restart drills, positioning for a field, mayday call, passenger briefing, whatever) and that you possess the handling/judging skills to arrive at the near edge of the field in the proper configuration and with the proper speed to do a short/soft field landing.

How you do that is your own responsibility, although various instructors do drill in a certain sequence of actions. But may I kindly suggest that setting best *glide* speed before you have chosen your field is a bit of a waste of time and altitude. Until you've selected a place where you want to go, it's best to select best *endurance* speed, which is a few knots slower.

[funfly]

In my test the examiner had me do a PFL and then as I was zooming away reduced the engine and said "OK now do another one" I was about 100 feet off the ground at the time!
This was of course a well known microlight pilot in a hotter country.

[BackPacker]

Same for me. It's the standard EFATO drill. Drop the nose to maintain flying speed, pick a field 30 degree left or right and go for it. Forget everything else, although if you do have some brain capacity left, use it to close the fuel selector and switch off the master.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

You've been taught the bog standard "East Anglia method". As you say, it goes like this:

- set up a circuit
- work out which field you're going to land in
- point it out to the instructor or examiner.

Provided your instructor or examiner is familiar with the "East Anglia method" this works fine. If they come from a different part of the country, and are more concerned with the rule book than whether you're going to survive, you point out to them that the pass-fail criterion is not "would he have made it to the field he designated from 3000'" but "would he have walked away".

[Supersport]

In my test the examiner had me do a PFL and then as I was zooming away reduced the engine and said "OK now do another one" I was about 100 feet off the ground at the time!
This was of course a well known microlight pilot in a hotter country


Exactly the same thing happened to me whilst doing my PPL skills test! However I wasn't in a hotter country, I was about 10 miles NE of Blackpool in the middle of winter, windy, heavy rain, the examiner was a very old and experienced aerobatic pilot & instructor and a tad crazy - he was shouting at me, basically telling me we were going to die if I didn't get it in that field. A bit unorthodox, but definitely gave me the mental kick I needed! IMO the key method which has always worked for me:

>Trim best glide
>Wind direction - know it
>Pick a suitable field - Stick to it where possible! (Sheep fine, Cows not! Watch out for power lines etc......)
>Tell the instructor / examiner your intended field
>Position downwind ASAP
>"Why has it failed?" & Restart procedure (if 1500ft or above)
>Turn on to base, early if necessary! Better to be high & fast than low and slow or blown out.
>Setup final approach
>Add flap as required - don't be hasty though
>Fly steep S turns if too high
>'Warm' the engine if too low!
>Make sure you get it in that field - fly like your life really does depend on it!

Other advice... don't hesitate, if you change you mind, tell the instructor / examiner immediately. Whatever you do get it in that field!

[Lister Noble]

Strange this,I had my bi-ennial a couple of weeks ago,terrible marginal viz,but we decided to do it.
Anyway we did a PFL,about 1500 feet,near an old air base,but I wanted to land into wind so did a double half turn,but still too high,so we side slipped in.
I reckoned we were still too high but CFI said you only need to make 1/3 rd way along runway so we would have been OK.
I'm only a low hrs pilot but if it happened for real you would not have much chance for rigid procedures,just try and get to where you reckoned first time,especially if low.
Book stuff is great if the chosen,or forced field, is just where it is in the book
Lister
Getting older but still learning:)

[Pace]

Lister

IMO when flying PFL YES pick up where you would like to go but be ready to change that decision if need be and at the last second. Think on the hoof!

Better to take a tailwind or crosswind into not the best landing site where your not going to hit anything hard than drag out the glide till you pan out into trees or stall the thing in your attempt to get there! lateral thinking not fixation saves you :D

Pace

[gpn01]

Lister

IMO when flying PFL YES pick up where you would like to go but be ready to change that decision if need be and at the last second. Think on the hoof!

Better to take a tailwind or crosswind into not the best landing site where your not going to hit anything hard than drag out the glide till you pan out into trees or stall the thing in your attempt to get there! lateral thinking not fixation saves you :D

Pace

In the gliding environment (where for every cross-country flight you're in a semi-permanent EFATO/PFL mode!) I teach that a good landing into a bad field is better than a bad landing into a good field. Am sure this philosphy transfers to the powered environment too. I also point out that (again gliding specific here) that the majority of field landings that result in accidents are due to either (a) a lack of decision making at the appropriate time or (b) a last minute change of plan. So, plan your landing as early as possible and don't change your mind unless you really need to. Remember too that it doesn't have to be a great field....it just needs to be a good enough field!

[Pace]

In the gliding environment (where for every cross-country flight you're in a semi-permanent EFATO/PFL mode!) I teach that a good landing into a bad field is better than a bad landing into a good field. Am sure this philosphy transfers to the powered environment too. I also point out that (again gliding specific here) that the majority of field landings that result in accidents are due to either (a) a lack of decision making at the appropriate time or (b) a last minute change of plan. So, plan your landing as early as possible and don't change your mind unless you really need to. Remember too that it doesn't have to be a great field....it just needs to be a good enough field!

GPN01

Not sure what you are saying here or if you are agreeing or not with me. Your statements highlighted are contradictory?

don't change your mind unless you really need to. Why would you want to unless you really needed to?

lack of decision making at the appropriate time an appropriate time might require a change at the last minute and hence a decision.
teach that a good landing into a bad field is better than a bad landing into a good field.
Isnt that what I have said? a chosen good field may not be achievable at some point hence a better bad field?

Pace

[gpn01]

@Pace - phrased slightly differently...

Choose where you're going to land and commit to it. Unless you discover at the last minute that the chosen landing area is completely unusable then stick with it anyway. Keep the airplane(glider) under control all the way down to the ground and until you stop. Realising that the field isn't as good as you first thought (power lines on the approach, not quite into wind, animals in the corner of the field, crop higher than expected, etc) is manageable providing you spot these additional problems and deal with them. Changing your mind at the last minute, trying to make it into a 'better looking' field when very low just leads to an accident.

"don't change your mind unless you really need to. Why would you want to unless you really needed to?".....Quite often when people are under pressure their decison making abilities go to rats and they'll start changing their mind rather than calmly assessing the situation and electing to stick with the original plan.

[Pace]

Choose where you're going to land and commit to it.

Cannot agree with that. Trying to make your chosen field when fixated on doing so leads to more stall /spin accidents or landing short or even long than any anything especially when left or right maybe a perfectly safe landing area which you can make under control.

I do think we are arguing the same thing but mixing up good or bad landing sites a good site can quickly become a bad site if your about to land in the stone barn before it.

My attitude is YES commit to a landing area but also survey alternatives left or right or straight ahead if your way too high and it all goes pear shaped !

Be prepared to take them rather than blindly going for it regardless.

In aviation always have an "out" no matter what you do. Only have one door and your asking for trouble as you are then playing russian roulette if it closes on you.

Pace

[chris-h]

PFL's are a guide to what to do in an ideal engine fail situation.
'If there is such a thing'
In real life you have to work with what you've got.

After passing PPL it would be worth doing PFL's at different heights to what you did in training and even picking a field to the right rather than the left 'If thats what your used to'

[gpn01]

@Pace. My perspective (having read numerous accident reports and spoken to various pilots who have managed to transform an incident into an accident because of last minute decisions/panic) is that sticking to a plan leads to a lower consequential risk of having an accident. Yes, you do need to keep monitoring the situation and if something happens (undershoot, overshoot, obstruction in the field, etc) that forces you to elect for an alternative then that's ok providing the alternative is a better proposition than sticking with the original choice.

I've had the situation with a couple of my own field landings where I've chosen a 'good' field and at the last minute something has happened that gives the oh sh1t moment but I've committed to making a good landing into what's rapidly become a poor field. In both cases I've walked away unscathed (and glider undamaged). Whether I'd have gotten away with a last minute change to an alternate (which I probably hadn't assessed as closely as the original, so probably had more traps lying in wait) and which would have required a rapid change of heading at low level......I'm not so sure.

I agree we need flexibility and need to keep assessing a situation to ensure that the current plan remains the best one...but there's a point at which you need to accept you no longer have the option to change your mind and so need to focus on doing the best you can to make the best of a bad situation. I teach students that they should always strive to have several options available to them and that when they run out of options they'd better hope they're already on the ground. In a glider (and I guess an airplane with a engine that's stopped) there's a point of no return where the options, perhaps because of your height, remaining energy or landing site choices have dropped to a single choice. That's the time when you stick with making the best landing you can.

[Pace]

gpn01

I think we are really talking the same language but arguing that we are not ;)

Pace

[RatherBeFlying]

An outlanding in a glider with a 150' fpm descent rate is a more leisurely process than in an airplane with a dead engine coming down at 800 fpm.

In a glider at 1500' you have plenty of time to examine the field and perhaps select a more suitable looking candidate, but you do learn more and more about the field as you get lower and sometimes you don't particularly like the new information. My last field revealed interesting contours on base and I abandoned my first landing spot in favor of a nice flat spot.

When at 2000' AGL in a glider, I like to have a field in my pocket. It may remain there for quite some time until I either get away or it claims me.

With low ceilings or airspace that restricts my altitude flying power, I tend to hopscotch from one decent field to another so that I know just which field I will be using if the engine suddenly packs it in.

As you get lower your choices for a landing spot shrink, but being able to retract spoilers to go back to a 40:1 glide ratio gives you considerably more flexibility when on final.

[Cows getting bigger]

As an instructor, restart checks, mayday call and passenger briefing all take second place to flying the aircraft. I have flown with pilots who can rattle-off a perfect set of checks but a) fail to pick a field b) completely fail to make the field they have chosen.

Some ponderings:

It doesn't really matter which method you use as long as you are comfortable with it and competent. When learning you are given one (or more) methods for assessing and positioning. These are merely building blocks. personally, I teach the constant aspect technique.

Achieve best glide speed - any faster/slower and you are eating into precious time/height.

Fly the aircraft.

Don't be too focussed on achieving a particular 'desirable'. A forced landing is a compromise so don't think that you must land into wind or find the longest field.

Fly the aircraft.

Be decisive but keep an eye on surrounding fields - you may choose/need to use one of them.

Don't stretch the glide (equally, don't go for drag too early)

Slipping/turning gives you more options than dropping flap. Once the flaps are down, it is a brave soul who will raise them. :)

Fly the aircraft.

Practice.

[Pace]

RatherBeFlying has a valid point re gliders versus power and their glide ratios compared to powered. Flying a brick and your options are more below you flying a glider further afield.

The brick will probably also have a much higher stall speed hence your speed into anything hard will be faster.

GPN01

To be clear that we are talking the same language are you saying that having selected your landing area that you commit to that landing area regardless of of how your flight profile changes or how the landing area changes?

Higher up the area may appear good but as you come lower not good.
Your profile might change not only through misjudgement but also through changing winds, shear etc.
You may be too low and undershoot your landing site but equally too high! meaning even with slip a faster approach speed, a late touchdown point and the possibility of departing your landing area at speed.

I cannot stress enough the dangers of fixation on one plan. In a PFL you should always have in mind the worst case and be constantly watching for other options if your main plan fails to work out.

Pace

[gpn01]

RatherBeFlying has a valid point re gliders versus power and their glide ratios compared to powered. Flying a brick and your options are more below you flying a glider further afield.

The brick will probably also have a much higher stall speed hence your speed into anything hard will be faster.

GPN01

To be clear that we are talking the same language are you saying that having selected your landing area that you commit to that landing area regardless of of how your flight profile changes or how the landing area changes?

Higher up the area may appear good but as you come lower not good.
Your profile might change not only through misjudgement but also through changing winds, shear etc.
You may be too low and undershoot your landing site but equally too high! meaning even with slip a faster approach speed, a late touchdown point and the possibility of departing your landing area at speed.

I cannot stress enough the dangers of fixation on one plan. In a PFL you should always have in mind the worst case and be constantly watching for other options if your main plan fails to work out.

Pace

I'm saying that as you get lower the number of options vailable to you decrease (irrespective of whether you're descending at 150' p.m. or 800' p.m., there's a point at which you're unlikely to be able to make it to an alternate). Strangely enough each year there's examples of crashes where people have committed to a field and then at the last minute change their mind because they've decided that another field 'looks better'. My feeling is that this is a high risk strategy because it's not a good idea to change your mind after a certain point unless you're sure that continuing with the original plan will definitely result in an accident.

I agree absolutely that you should have a plan that provides several options and you should keep reviewing the plan to make sure it remains the best choice. But once you're in the last few seconds of descent it's better to accept the choice and do your best to fly the airplane safely.

[Pace]

there's examples of crashes where people have committed to a field and then at the last minute change their mind because they've decided that another field 'looks better'.

GPN01

The answer lies in your piece above. It is fixation which is the killer. Committed is pretty well fixation.

To allow a situation to develop to the point that the aircraft is SO low that a "panic" turn away is made strengthens my arguement. That landing area should have been discarded sooner.

The pilot who continues an approach to a point where he realises hes not going to make it or the landing site is a very bad idea is a victim of committing to a landing area. get there itis or whatever.

The good pilot will already have other options and in good judgement will throw away his planned landing area when he knows its a bad idea.
200 feet is plenty to turn left or right 30 feet is not. 200 feet and you will know whether or not your going to make it and what you are going to land in.

The good pilot will already know what he is turning into the fixated pilot probably will not. The fixated pilots turn will probably be blind and motivated by desperation and panic. That is not what I am talking about.

But its fixation which causes a very late descision and its fixation which is a known killer.

Pace

[modelman]

As we are generally taught PFL's in a controlled (planned) situation,this is what I was taught.
Trim for best glide ( don't fiddle about wasting time trying to get this perfect.)
Turn into wind ( you did write the airfield wind direction on your chart...) or look for visual cues.
Pick a field ( could be right below)
What's gone wrong,(fuel selector,mixture,fuel qty)
Attempt restart,if no go, mags off
Fly circuit keeping your chosen field in sight
Don't select any flap until sure of making field
Select flap to bring aiming point to nearer end of field
Switch off master after last flap selection and Mayday call (if you have time).Tighten your/pax straps.
Do your best to get down,down worry about text book landing and preserving your aircraft,just get down to preserve yourself and pax.
You can also unlatch door-some say this reduces cabin integrity but I think I would be a door open man.
Real life (FL) I doubt would give you enough time for all this-just fly the plane
MM

[Fuji Abound]

Pace

Sorry, I havent read the whole thread, just your last post, so apologies if I am off the mark.

However, while I understand your point about keeping your options open, I think is equally important not to endow the average pilot with exceptional levels of skill.

The reality is many pilots dont practice FLs at all, or rarely, and are a long way short of having the skill set of glider pilots.

Keep the aircraft under control and at all cost dont stall and it is surprising what you can land into or on and survive. I recall the twin than ran out of fuel and "landed" through a roof onto a back garden all of 20 feet by 20 feet and the pilot had barely a scratch. I recall the Pitts that when through a fence, across a ditch, hit a tree and inverted. The pilot was fine.

Unfortunately those that stall the aircraft in and land with high energy in a unusual attitude do not do so well.

So, as another point of view, the danger is encouraging pilots to make last minute adjustments at low level and in consequence their losing control of speed and attitude. Yes, of course they should not lose control, but not only are HF but also currency issues that could mean the pilot is better of maintaining really close control of speed and attitude than attempting the perfect landing site.

[Pace]

Fuji

Maintaining control and flying speed is paramount in any situation. what I am really pushing is for situational awareness and pilots keeping options or other doors open to them incase their only door closes.

I realise that we are not all the same and that some are very low time inexperienced pilots.

While many of us can quite happily make a 90 degree turn off the inbound track at 200 feet many cannot but a 30-45 degree turn left or right of track should safely be in the realms of most.

Fixation means the pilot is not situationally aware and fixation not just in PFLs is the biggest killer of all.

A pilot maybe way to high for his chosen field but is fixated that he lands there. As you Said he is inexperienced so unlikely to be an Ace at sideslipping.
He pushes the nose over up goes the speed. he flies down the chosen field straight into the trees.

Fixated again he is too low and fixated on making his field up goes the nose to get there stall/spin

Left or right of his track or ahead of his chosen landing field maybe a totally suitable area.

It is always having the big picture and hence the options which for me is what should be taught.

Pace

[dublinpilot]

You're all talking about the same coin, but from the opposite side :rolleyes:

Yes keep your options open, but don't constantly change your plan for a slightly better field, otherwise you'll so do at a point so late in the approach that you do so at the cost of control of the aircraft.

[Pull what]

3. Turn cross wind and do your restart checks.

ooh dont like that!

The first thing to do when faced with an engine failure is to adopt a gliding attitude and reason why its stopped and attempt a restart. Do this as quickly as possible, if it's carb icing you will be glad you did.

High key/ low key is about picking a downwind point of around 1500 agl not crosswind.

Adopting best endurance speed is as useful as tits on a bull on a light SE aircraft, stick to simple basics!

[Big Pistons Forever]

Unfortunately flying schools must teach to the flight test. Now that you have your PPL you can take a more practical approach to the forced approach manoever.

Some things to think about:

1) 80 % of all real forced landings are a result of an engine failure that was directly caused by the actions or inactions of the pilot. IMO if flight schools could spent less time fetishizing about the "right" way to fly a forced approach and more on the pilot knowledge and pilot decison making skills to avoid having the engine fail in the first place, everyone would be better off.

2) A for real total engine failure is a true emergency. The only consideration is the survival of the passengers and the condition of the aircraft after it comes to rest is of no practical importance as long as the passsenger compartment is intact.

2) deaccelleration below 9 Gees will not cause any injury. 60 knots to 0 knots with a steady 9 Gee deacceleration takes about 25 feet. One of the huge problems in flight training is the emphasis spent on field selection. Any reasonably flat piece of land will do. The important thing is to fly the aircraft to the intended touch down point, therefore judging the approach path (ie at any point being able to say I am high/low/right on the desired flight path) is critical to surviving an engine failure. Fortunately you can practice this every time you land. Try to get in a glide approach to landing when practicable and if not fly final with a constant power setting and see if you can get to the flare without adjusting power.

3) The deadly crashes on the forced approach almost always involve being low. This either results in a stall/spin or hitting the approach end obstacles at flying speed and still high above the ground. A bit high and fast is way better than low and slow. If you arrive at your intended touch down point going too fast smash the aircraft onto the ground.

4) I was very disappointed at an early poster saying never raise the flaps once lowered. This is another fligh school "Never" commandment that seems to get mindless passed on and applied without any critical thinking in every situation. There is every reason to consider raising landing flaps to the max lift (usually takeoff) position if you are low. Unless you are very close to the ground there will be negligable sink (for your average Cessna Piper aircraft)and a usefull increase in glide distance. Of course it is better to not have put dpwn the flaps too early. Another flight schoolism is the direction to "Never" slip a Cessna C172 with flap allready deployed. This is absolute crap advice, ther is no POH prohibition on flaps with slips, and a slip with flaps will produce a very steep descent angle which will save a too high approach.

[Fuji Abound]

Pace

Yes, I agree, and as another poster said, the same side coin from different sides.

As BPF suggests you are better landing with a little more energy than stalling in. In short whatever else you do be very sure you dont stall or hit a substantial and solid object, short of that experience would seem to suggest you will fair pretty well even if the landing site is not ideal.

[Miken100]

A useful thread which has prompted me to think "when was the last time I practised this" so mental note to go out and do....

Last time I recall was climbing out of Wolverhampton, somewhere around 600' agl and my instructor closed the throttle.... in my mental "panic" I instantly looked for and found the perfect landing spot almost dead ahead only to discover I had omitted to push the yoke forward and experiencing the resultant egg on my face as he reapplied the power about 5Kt from a stall!

I know from this and other experiences that some kind of mental "drill" is necessary so one "knows" what to do in the event of a sudden event with the inevitable brain scramble and that it is useful to practise it frequently enough to be able to carry out the drill when something happens and one has to do it for real.

Thanks for an interesting debate - helpful!

[Pace]

I wonder how many PPLs practice forced landings at night? What tips they have for what could be a serious situation little practiced.

Establish glide. Head for black areas.

Turn off landing lights. At 500 AGL turn on landing lights. If you like what you see keep landing lights on if you dont like what you see! turn them off :rolleyes:

Pace

[Fuji Abound]

I would just pull the chute (at night). :)

[Big Pistons Forever]

I use a fool proof method to avoid the possibility of a night forced landing....I do not fly single engine aircraft at night anymore. I wonder how many PPL's flying at night actually know the accident statistics ? A study was done on this question in the USA. If you are a non instrument rated PPL flying a single engine aircraft at night you are 25 times more likely to have a fatal accident on any given flight than on an equivalent flight flown during the day.