job cuts

[justbeingnosey]

Hi My son is a trainee atc at Swanwick, in the present climate there is the constant fear of job cuts. He has already been interviewed for his own job and I am fearful that when he was re located to Swanwick he did not move house, he lives some 50 odd miles from the site. Is this likely to be a factor? thank you

[Vortex Issues]

being 50 miles from site will not be a factor, there are still people living in the London area.

I very much doubt that they will be making trainees redundant as we're still short.

[off watch]

only 30-40% of trainees that came through from the college went on to become valid ATCOs
I wonder how many of the people involved in initially selecting the 60-70% of failures are still employed by NATS ? Is there a chop rate for Instructors - i.e. if only x% of the course pass @ Hurn , are they dumped too ? :hmm:

[phantomlurker]

The fact that he has had to reapply for his job would indicate an ATSA, as opposed to an ATCO or TATC...

PL

[Pat42]

NATS are currently actively recruiting and training new ATCOs. I'd have thought that if jobs needed to go the first thing they would do would be to put a hold on recruitment rather than axe current ATCOs, the fact that they haven't done this would suggest that jobs are currently quite safe. On top of which I hear that a lot of units are currently understaffed (they have enough staff to be safely meet watch manning requirements, but not necessarily as many as watch managers would like or feel comfortable with), which would make additional staffing cuts impossible due to safety limitations.

On the other hand if your son is an ATSA rather than an ATCO (a very different role) as Phantomlurker has speculated then the issue could be very different....

[justbeingnosey]

Hi, first off thankyou all for being so helpful, secondly as you suspect I have facts wrong and he is an assistant

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<I wonder how many of the people involved in initially selecting the 60-70% of failures are still employed by NATS ? Is there a chop rate for Instructors - i.e. if only x% of the course pass @ Hurn , are they dumped too ? >>

Why should they be? If you continue that argument you end up with simulator instructors and watche training officers being "dumped" too.

I spent 35+ years on and off training controllers and it is frequently impossible to determine if someone is going to validate until they start live training. I've seen trainees who have done well at the College and passed the exams with flying colours subsequently fail the live training. At one time the failure rate at Heathrow was about 80%. Such is ATC and it has little to do with the instructors.

[Loki]

HD

Not only that, but people who are doing well, passing through level checks in good time etc, suddenly and with no ready explanation, stop making progress.

Also, the stragglers can surprise too, putting on a late dash to validation.

One for the HF boys and girls to explain.....

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Loki..... See it all, unfortunately, and there seems to be no answer. Saw a couple of controllers who had done very well at the College totally freeze on the simulator at WD and never got as far as the ops room. Apart from all the fancy tests they do nowadays, there are many other factors in the run up to validation which can raise problems.

[BDiONU]

I have often wondered about whether things come to a head at the unit because during simulator training it's all a video game. Then it hits home that it's real aeroplanes with real lives at stake and you're the one who's responsible and it takes massive confidence and a gigantic ego to know, with absolute certainty, that you're the one who can do it.
Just my thoughts.

BD

[Gonzo]

Oh dear.

I'll leave it to you BD to respond to that.

What was it you were saying about egos again?

[anotherthing]

BD is talking from experience gained as an ATCO and probably an OJTI (sorry M, I don't know your full resume)... I might sometimes disagree with him with regards to certain outcomes of projects etc, but I always do so respecting that he has an extensive controlling background.

[Roffa]

Yahoo, I look forward to reading your apology to BD...

Folk really need to check they're on firm ground before spouting off at others.

[DC10RealMan]

I could not help but view this post with some bemusement. The originator of this post comes on here as a father concerned about the future of his sons career and this enquiry is then extended to the possibility that this young man is an employee of the atsa grade. The raison d etre of this concerned father post was lost within five replies as the subject changed to employees of the atco grade, how great they are and their training regime.
In NATS there is a probability that many hundreds of your colleagues will lose their jobs voluntarily or otherwise, with serious financial, emotional, spiritual, and professional consequences that that situation entails. The possibility of people losing their homes due to being unable to pay the mortgage, grocery bills, utility bills, school fees, relationships breaking up due to the strain and possibly even worse.
I sometimes wonder if such breathtaking arrogance, egocentric, self absorbed, and selfish behaviour is a prerequisite for selection as an atco?

Tony Fallows
Cheshire

[BDiONU]

BD is talking from experience gained as an ATCO and probably an OJTI (sorry M, I don't know your full resume)...
I obviously missed the big stushie but thanks for those who stuck up in my absence. I was talking from my own personal experiences in ATC which has been my chosen career for the past 35 years and has offered up a variety of different jobs, those include both aerodrome and area ATCO and OJTI in both disciplines.

BD

[classicwings]

it takes massive confidence and a gigantic ego to know, with absolute certainty, that you're the one who can do it.

Is this a prerequisite for all budding NATS ATCO's?.............:bored:

[Pat42]

In reply to the original poster;

I had heard rumour that ATSA roles within Swanwick were being axed, I believe with the eventual goal of all such posts being eliminated. As I understand it this is more to do with the ATSA role becoming less necessary due to new technology than it is to do with the economic climate. Perhaps someone who currently works there has a more detailed insight and/or time frame?

I can't imagine the location of your son's home will have a significant bearing unless it is having a detrimental effect on his work (i.e. turning up late for work, being tired due to long periods of travel etc.)

There will still be ATSA positions at many airfields (both inside and outside NATS) after the Swanwick positions are gone, but I believe vacancies are currently few and far between as well as being highly competative.

Sorry the outlook is a little bleak :/

[BDiONU]

Is this a prerequisite for all budding NATS ATCO's
You write as if it's a bad thing but I don't know of a better way to express the necessary personal qualities required to do a job where you have the potential to very quickly, and through a simple mistake, kill 100's of people. This is my personal opinion and from personal experience all ATCOs, not restricted to just NATS.

BD

Q. What the similarity between a pilot and an ATCO?
A. If a pilot makes a mistake the pilot dies. If an ATCO makes a mistake the pilot dies.

[BDiONU]

In reply to the original poster;
I had heard rumour that ATSA roles within Swanwick were being axed, I believe with the eventual goal of all such posts being eliminated. As I understand it this is more to do with the ATSA role becoming less necessary due to new technology than it is to do with the economic climate.
The numbers are being reduced at both Swanwick (iFACTS and EFD) and Prestwick (EFD) as technology removes the requirement to take printed paper strips out of a printer, load them into a plastic holder and place them in front of a controller, this accounts for very roughly 60% of the time spent working as support staff on a sector. It doesn't remove any of the other tasks which are vital to the running a sector and of an Ops room, it will tend to increase skills as the support staff will be required to operate the new technology in addition to doing what they've always done.
There is also an agreement between management and unions (on the company intranet) that there will be no compulsory redundancies without something serious happening to the economy.

BD

[Pat42]

Thanks BD. As I said, I was only working on rumour and hearsay, I'm sure the clarification will be helpful to the OP :)

[Minesthechevy]

They've been trying to get rid of ATSAs in toto since ah were a lad at LATCC in the early 70s.

It seemed that every time some bright management 'erbert came up with a plan to achieve it, some computerised system or other fell over and it was a quick scrabble to find the ATSAs to keep things moving, put fingers in dykes*, etc.

It seems to have been a gradual attrition, I don't know what the numbers are at Heathrow now but when I left there was much doom and gloom over the projected numbers after the move to the new VCR.

*If Ade's in here somewhere you KNOW what I mean Ade so stop sniggering.

[Gonzo]

MD, there are now only two 2s per watch (well, one has three). A few in non-ops posts.

[BDiONU]

put fingers in dykes*, etc.
I know some places you can do that but it costs good money ;-)

BD

[ZOOKER]

Is it true that for every operational ATSA 'shown the door', The Barron has replaced them with a 'business support specialist', 'customer services manager', 'carbon solutions expert' or 'human ********' something or other?
Seems a bit like the NHS. - According to Jeremy Vine last week, 50,000 managers. - Equal to the population of Macclesfield!
"Things Can Only Get better"
P.S.
As for 'human ********'s involved in ATCO selection, no wonder validation rates are low.

[Roffa]

DC10RM,

The raison d etre of this concerned father post was lost within five replies as the subject changed...

This is an internet forum isn't it, or have I missed something? That's what internet forums do, don't they?

Thought the chip might have fallen off the shoulder now you've retired as well:p

[BDiONU]

Is it true that for every operational ATSA 'shown the door', The Barron has replaced them with a 'business something or other?
As usual you talk about things you know nothing about. Every division, every area, every department in NATS has been 'made lean' to the point where the pips are starting to squeak.

BD

[ZOOKER]

And are you one of those 'pip-squeaks' BD? :E

[fisbangwollop]

Thought the chip might have fallen off the shoulder now you've retired as well

ROFFA...........seems to me that DC10 RM is the only one that talks sense here......after all the ATSA grade is the only grade that had the balls to stand up for what they wanted some 33 years ago and go on strike.......maybe if some of our ATCO's had some of those same balls we would not have been shafted over our pension!!!!!!!!!!!:}:}:}

[Eric T Cartman]

@ fisbang
we would not have been shafted over our pension!
Ha - I'll see your pension & raise you an upped retirement age - twice !! ;)

IMHO the real tragedy with all these cuts is the experience that is being wasted - the ones with the most seem to be the first to go. I can see why, but it bodes ill for the future.

I actually agree with ZOOKER when he said As for 'human ********'s involved in ATCO selection, no wonder validation rates are low.

Get back to the 3 year cadetship - we lost only 3 from the College on my course & none who graduated failed to validate their first posting. OK I know it would cost a lot but how much money goes down the pan when someone with hundreds of hours at a Centre is chopped ?

[Grumpy old git + tumbleweed mode off - GO!]

[fisbangwollop]

Get back to the 3 year cadetship - we lost only 3 from the College on my course & none who graduated failed to validate their first posting. OK I know it would cost a lot but how much money goes down the pan when someone with hundreds of hours at a Centre is chopped ?



ERIC T........could not agree more with what you say....sorry for the rant but I hate seeing what I am seeing at the moment with some of my unit ATSA's being sold down the river in the idea of progress!!!! :ugh::ugh:

And by the way was great to meet another grumpy old bugger last night....will hook up soon for a visit to your own world in the sky!! Take care :cool::cool::cool:

[eastern wiseguy]

BD

Q. What the similarity between a pilot and an ATCO?
A. If a pilot makes a mistake the pilot dies. If an ATCO makes a mistake the pilot dies.

Perish the thought he would be melodramatic:hmm:

[Not Long Now]

Unless of course the russians are upset then the controller dies too...