13th Jul 2001, 23:11
Today Michael O'Leary took a leaf out of Cathay's management playbook and dismissed the chairman of the Ryanair local of the Irish Airline Pilot's Association. All I can say is that I am sickened by the manner in which this has been manufactured, I am appalled by the spineless performance of his Chief Pilot and hope he gains the support of his colleagues he deserves.

Tom the Tenor
13th Jul 2001, 23:51
Pray, tell us all - what is the gen? Why leave the story up in mid air like that?

14th Jul 2001, 17:30
I've just heard it too. Details of the reason are still sketchy. B.O.H.I.C.A!

Joe soap
14th Jul 2001, 18:30
Well what can i add? Richard Ceann the lot of em!

14th Jul 2001, 18:52

since you find it necessary to air it hear, you must know more about it. If he is fired because of a clash between the union and the management, it is important to know for those thinking about joining Ryanair. So, let us hear you !

[ 14 July 2001: Message edited by: LimaNovember ]

14th Jul 2001, 18:57
Don't be shy chaps. Let's have the details!

14th Jul 2001, 19:02
Well if this story is true, there is a rather large problem in the company. This management decision only supports the work for recognition by BALPA - WE need BALPA now....
:mad: :mad:

14th Jul 2001, 23:50
To answer your questions, not too sure what happened, but this is the note that has appeared in the pilots room in Dublin, make up your own mind.

The Full Text

On Thursday 5th July, Captain X disrupted and delayed departure of Flight FR 226, when he insisted that he (and his crew) would not position to STN on the jump seats that were available and would only position in the cabin thereby forcing our ramp staff to try to off load some of our checked in, fare paying passengers. Captain X was instructed by operations to position on the jump seat, he refused and was therefore off loaded from the flight.

It is entirely unacceptable for any employee of this airline (be they front line staff, cabin crew, pilots, management or even board members) to refuse to travel on a jump seat or insist that they will only travel in the cabin, thereby requiring that checked in passengers be off loaded . Our passengers will at all time take priority over All Ryanair employees regardless of whether they are travelling on duty or non duty purposes. In these circumstances we had no alternative but to terminate Captains X's contract of employment with immediate effect.

We expect and thankfully get high quality leadership, good judgement and sound common sense from all Ryanairs pilots and in particular our Captains. Capatin X's behaviour last Thursday was the antitheses of the concern for our customers that we expect from all our staff.

It is our passengers who pay our wages, and under no circumstances will we ever tolerate a situation whereby passengers are either expected to, or be off loaded, to accommodate a staff member insisting on travelling in the cabin of our aircraft instead on an available jump seat.

An internal memo on a company notice board does not imply public domain... hence I have removed the name of the Captain concerned. Please do not refer to the gentleman by name.

Sick Squid
Rumours and News Moderator

[ 15 July 2001: Message edited by: Sick Squid ]

14th Jul 2001, 23:56
Couldn't Capt X have gone on the next flight? Sound like a lack of maturity on the Managers part.

Edit as above......

[ 15 July 2001: Message edited by: Sick Squid ]

15th Jul 2001, 01:31
Whoops...what's the contract say?

Alien Shores
15th Jul 2001, 04:45
In both the airlines I have worked for positioning staff are/were booked seats in the highest class cabin available... most sensible airlines operate this policy, and block off the seats, thus removing them from the system. If only jumpseats are available it is ok to ask the positioning crew if they would sit there, but under no circumstances do they have to.

Personally... it depends... before a long sector, there is no way I am losing the relative relaxation of the cabin, as you cannot relax on a jumpseat and the involuntary involvement in the flight adds to the duty. Afterwards.. well, almost certainly yes. But it is my choice.

Captain X has been shafted by a management who cannot see beyond an artificial bottom line... I sense a hidden agenda.


15th Jul 2001, 05:16
It doesn't matter what's "right" or "fair." What does the labor contract say. It spells out management AND union responsibilities. It would be hard to believe that this captain and union leader would refuse to reposition in the jumpseat unless his contract spelled out otherwise. If he did breach the contract, he's got no legs to stand on.

15th Jul 2001, 08:55
Mornin' all;

Sounds like, after reading the notice above, that management at FR were perfectly correct in their decision, Fr is not a charity organisation and is not the leading low fares airline in Europe (maybe elsewhere) for nothing. On a flight segment of approx 40 mins flying time..why could the Capt not sit in the jump seat..was it below his levl of dignity or was he hoping to lounge around in the "business class" section up front in a FR B737..?, C'mon guys, I have heard of flight crew with illusions of grandeur but surely the Capt this time, was over the top
***Of course, all my comments are based on what I have read above and maybe there is another side to the story*** :(

15th Jul 2001, 12:34
seeing that we are onto FR is it true that that the futura 737 800 that was nearly written off in SNN in high winds and now back flying was a Ryanair 737 leased out?

15th Jul 2001, 13:15
This situation is a complete disgrace. I cannot believe the arrogrance of FR management given their "we're all team members" attitude. I hope everyone else there kicks up a huge fuss over this....

15th Jul 2001, 13:57
Agree with Ryan on this one. I wouldn't like to be bumped off a flight, if crew wouldn't ride jump seat. :p

Tom the Tenor
15th Jul 2001, 14:16
Bearcat, No, the Futura 738 aircraft at Shannon was not a leased out aircraft of Ryanair's.

15th Jul 2001, 14:28
Pilots cannot be expected to jumpseat prior to duty or after duty for that matter,however short the sector.After any incident/accident,the first thing that any investigator will ask is:"Were the flightcrew properly licenced and rested to conduct this flight?"THe notion of pilot fatigue and its proven effect in previous airliner crashes has made all conscientious regulatory authorities take a zero tolerance attitude towards any infringement of these regulations.If an unscrupulous airline plays fast and lose with these regulations,not only is it compromising the position of its flightcrew,but it is openly inviting accusations of gross misconduct.
I appreciate that the off-loading of passengers to make way for crew is a highly embarassing option for an airline but compromising safety is somewhat more than an embarassment.Knowing that they had positioning crew on the flight,who was the bright spark that sold the seats?Was it an oversight(reflects badly on Ryanair's organization)or were they sold to make an extra buck(misguided greed).Either one is inexcusable,but the former is at least forgiveable.
Preparation for a flight is important to any pilot.That hour or two prior to operating is crucial.Accident investigators know this.

15th Jul 2001, 14:37
Certainly in the USA, if you jumpseat while on duty, then that counts as regualrr flight time, and it has caused problems in the past.

FWIW at my company (UAL) deadheading issues form a significant part of the contract. Basically if there are absolutely no seats available then a gate agent could ASK a crew member to jumpseat, but the crew desk has to be consulted first, for the flight time limitations listed above.

As others have said, there is more to this than appears.

Can someone quote the RyanAir contract here?

Stand by your man
15th Jul 2001, 17:24
Whoa, steady on.

Captain X did NOT refuse a jumpseat. The facts are: He plus co-pilot plus 3 CCMs showed up at the gate to py to STN. There was one seat in the cabin and 3 jumpseats. Ergo, 5 into 4 does not go. Not unreasonably he pointed this out and asked OPS to solve the problem. A standby pax was unloaded and ALL FIVE crew boarded and took their seats and were ready to position to STN. Then the operating capt was radioed to offload the positioniong capt/co-pilot. This they did and returned to OPS. They were summoned DIRECTLY to Michael O'Leary and roundly abused with a string of expletives too crude to use here!!! After a farcical "investigation" which denied him sight of the "evidence statements" against him, Capt X was sacked. Just like that.

Did somebody say Contract/Terms and conditions. Ha, ha, ha. This is Ryanair. The rules are made up as we go along. Object, and your fired.

I am disturbed that this is being debated as if the issue is the rights and wrongs of crew positioning in jumpseats. I repeat: THERE WAS NO REFUSAL TO JUMPSEAT. THERE WERE 4 SEATS (INCLUDING JUMPSEATS) FOR 5 CREW. WHEN AN EXTRA SEAT WAS MADE AVAILABLE ALL CREW BOARDED. RYANAIR OPS ORDERED THE FLIGHT CREW TO OFFLOAD.


15th Jul 2001, 19:03

but I`m sure you would like the pilots up front to be rested when you enjoy the service in the back. Where are you actually coming from? According to your profile you are aircrew, and as such I would have expected a slightly different attitude. It could happen to you too one day.


thank you for your info. If this is the case, I would like to know the Ryanair Pilot Union opinion, and what they are going to do about it. I am sure there will be sufficient backing from the international community of pilots. May be not from Loc-out and some of his friends, but so what. You cannot win them all.

15th Jul 2001, 19:18
Looks like intimidation to me...when's the court date?

Joe soap
15th Jul 2001, 20:01
Yes Sby ure man is EXACTLY correct, YES the rules are made up as they go along... u want to know whar i think??

This saga has been ongoing and the problems and in house "fighting" stems from individuals backgrounds prior to FR, i.e. Aer Corps vs Civil.

The capt that was shafted was ex aer corps.

Time Will Tell whats going to result.

its a BIG pity that professional pilots are PAWNS

oh and just remember he was the pilots representative which was an election by the pilots, most of whom did vote.

whos gonna back him now huh? me wonders

[ 15 July 2001: Message edited by: Joe soap ]

16th Jul 2001, 00:18

If this is the case, what exactly was the reason why Capt X was sacked? :confused:

Stand by your man
16th Jul 2001, 00:47
Quite simply, he was sacked as an example to all of us. Because he was the union chairman. because he sttood up to O'Leary. Because he didn't play O'Leary's game. OLeary's message is don't organise, don't challenge, don't try to change things, don't fight. Just rollover and do everything I say.

And then, things just get worse and worse. Increased duty times. Pay CUTS for the CRL base. Demotions for those who resisted. Use of standby to roster 3 and 4 six-sector days per week. Whats next?? If they get away with this they can do whatever they like to whoever they like whenever they like. So you resign. Great, he hires an over 60 Captain with a pension already at a knockdown rate. Or a 200 hour SO at £10k pa.
He wins every way. This has to stop. Doesn't it??????????

16th Jul 2001, 02:45
...but what reason did MOL give Capt X as to why he was fired?

16th Jul 2001, 11:54
With regard to 'What does the contract say?'
This is Ryanair, none of these finer points are sorted out.
Ryanair is the type of outfit you join with a contract that says Stansted, 2 weeks later they say tough **** you are xxx based, they do not give 2 **** about anybody.

They walk all over people & run the operation on fear.
Most right minded people think 'they can't do this or that'

O' Learys response is I just have, 'what the F*** are you going to do about it.'
& all this is tolerated by a spineless IAA (The Irish (amature??) Aviation Authority.)

16th Jul 2001, 12:00
If I might add something else to 'skyclear' when he says what exact reason did MOL give for the sacking.

Skyclear, you are guilty of being a rightminded person.
O' Leary is as thick as they come, he doesn't give reasons nor does he feel oblidged to.

His only explanation for anything is 'this is my F****** airline, I do what I f****** like.

(and yes that includes the bad language).

Joe soap
16th Jul 2001, 12:07
Do you think flying lower might help people see thru this mist?

oooohh i hate above 190!

16th Jul 2001, 13:11
Hopefully the dub based pilots will have some kind of response to this. I'd like to see us lose the 100 grand share options that are tied to no industrial action. this might galvinise some of the money orientated fence sitters into seeing the light.
Lets face it capt x was sacked because he was organising the place. All he ever wanted to do was make ryanair a better place to work for us all. But mol's pyscotic dislike of pilots should land him in therapy....pity he doesn't look at southwest and take a leaf out of their employee relations book.

Tom the Tenor
16th Jul 2001, 13:49
It is a wonder that M O'L wasn't on Monday's RTE Morning Ireland radio show boasting about what he did in sacking Captain X - he has such a mania for any kind of publicity, be it good or bad. Whatever, if anything, is stated in a contract of employment am I right in believing that normal Department of Labour work regulations and IAA rules, such as they are, apply as well?

16th Jul 2001, 23:40
The options are straight forward, either stand up and be counted or take what they give you for the rest of your career.

There is a motion to be balloted on in the IALPA office. Every FR pilot should vote, irrespective of which way (s)he votes, so that the result has creedence.

Stand by your man
17th Jul 2001, 00:00
And now another pilot sacked. What next?? Words fail me.......................................................... ..........................................................HE LP :mad: :eek:

17th Jul 2001, 12:06
In the airline that I work for they have a rule that you can be dismissed for bringing the Airline into disrepute.

If FR have the same rules M O'L could find himself required to resign. I bet Capt.X is still working for FR long after M O'L and by all accounts it will be a "expletive deleted" better airline to work for without the "expletive deleted"!! :D

[ 17 July 2001: Message edited by: sky9 ]

full monkey
17th Jul 2001, 23:26
heard ryanair fired another pilot today for an isolated incident, any confirmation?

18th Jul 2001, 03:25
full monkey
Heard this too. Heard she had a row with a management pilot and O'leary fired her on the spot. Power gone mad if true two pilots in a week. Who's next? What are IALPA doing? What are the IAA doing?

18th Jul 2001, 03:55
Stand by your man....Just read your comments about Ryanair and this incident..So your information is correct...???? have you spoken with the people involved,..me thinks not..!!!

18th Jul 2001, 04:03

Get the background on this second incident and then decide if its time to voice such strong concerns..!!, If you did the same you could not expect less..!!!
Remember guys..ALWAYS SAFETY FIRST..!!!! :rolleyes:

18th Jul 2001, 10:49

Since you`re obviously well informed; why sit on the news. Do not be shy......

18th Jul 2001, 12:17
From today's Irish Independent 18 July..

A ROW is growing over the sacking of two pilots by Ryanair chief Michael O'Leary.

One of them, Martin Duffy, is a trade union activist. The other, junior co-pilot Cliona Duggan, is a daughter of the airline's chief pilot.

Mr Duffy was dismissed because he refused to sit in a cockpit "jump seat" for a flight on which he was off duty. Ms Duggan was sacked on Monday following a claim of "insubordination".

Mr O'Leary, the airline's chief executive, personally terminated Captain Duffy's position following the dispute over jump seats - extra seats in the cockpit, sometimes allocated to off-duty staff.

Captain Duffy was not working on the flight in question but intended to travel to Stansted to pilot a flight from there.

He wanted a normal seat in the main cabin and refused the jump seat in the cockpit. Ryanair says this could only have been managed by turning away fare-paying passengers.

Last April Mr Duffy, an opponent of the controversial pay deal concluded last November, was elected chairman of the Ryanair section of the Irish Airline Pilots Association (IALPA) branch of the IMPACT union.

The airline yesterday issued a notice claiming the pilot had "disrupted and delayed departure of Flight FR 226" when he insisted that he and his crew would not fly to Stansted on jump seats and "would only position in the cabin thereby forcing our ramp staff to try to off-load some of our checked-in, fare-paying passengers.

"Captain Duffy was instructed by operations to position on the jump seat, he refused and was therefore off-loaded from the flight," said the statement.

The company added that,"in these circumstances we had no alternative but to terminate Captain Duffy's contract of employment with immediate effect."

The airline did not give any verbal or written warnings according to the pilots' union. IMPACT aviation secretary, Michael Landers last night said: "In my experience the only procedures within Ryanair are whatever Mr O'Leary decides at any given time."

The action taken against Ms Duggan has shocked airline staff, and her fellow pilots will be attending a union meeting later this week to decide on their response.

Mr Duffy told IMPACT that Mr O'Leary had advised him, as he was being sacked, that he could take his case to the Employment Appeals Tribunal, the High Court, or organise a strike.

The airline stated that Captain Duffy's request for an ordinary passenger seat "was the very antitheses of the concern for our customers that we expect from all our staff.

In many airlines non-working cockpit crews are accommodated in the best available cabin seats, usually business class.

Jump seats are primarily for supervisory pilots overseeing the two-person flight deck crew. Pilots contend that when seated in a temporary jump seat they are effectively working and cannot relax as they are psychologically involved in flight operations.

General practice in most airlines is to reserve adequate seating to accommodate outbound or returning crew members.

Ryanair said that "under no circumstances will we ever tolerate a situation whereby passengers are either expected to, or be off-loaded, to accommodate a staff member insisting on travelling in the cabin of our aircraft instead on an available jump seat."

18th Jul 2001, 13:12
:eek: :eek: :eek: :confused: :confused:

Stand by your man
18th Jul 2001, 14:46

Of course I have spoken to the people involved. Do you think I just made it up, for ****sake?

RE your earlier post on this topic. Have you ever flown with FR? There is no "business class" up front. All single class configured a/c. Pile 'em high, sell 'em cheap. It works as a business formula. What a pity the employees are treated like **** :mad:

18th Jul 2001, 16:28
Any details on what prompted the dismissal of the Chief Pilot's daughter from the pilot roster? I know it is politically sensitive, but I'm curious to know - she was apparently a junior FO.

Details would be nice because the above mentioned article was vague at best.


Kaptin M
18th Jul 2001, 16:32
I assume (that) Mr O'Leery ALWAYS travels in the jump seat, along wit' ALL other staff, so as not to "tolerate a situation whereby passengers are either expected to, or be off-loaded, to accommodate a staff member insisting on travelling in the cabin of our aircraft instead on an available jump seat."
For sure, on a low cost airline, there could always be a last minute rush.

Management need to LEAD BY EXAMPLE, and ALWAYS travel in the jumpseat. You set the precedence - now follow it.

Anything else would HAVE to be considered discriminatory!!

18th Jul 2001, 18:37
Would you want him on your jumpseat?
But I suppose if you refuse to have him he will just sack you anyway !

18th Jul 2001, 18:45
Recent strikes at Lufthansa and work-to-rule at Cathay pacific have shown, that the airlines can be threatened by its pilots. To the best of my knowledge it seems, that a FR strike action is the only way to go. “Management often finds it necessary to demonstrate that it will not cave in to threats by pilots over strike action, while pilots feel required to show they are prepared to carry out their threats if not appeased. Once the aircraft stop flying, an agreement tends to be hammered out quickly, but not before huge losses have been incurred and customers have been alienated. In many instances passengers never return”. – Flight magazine comment…
During the last month FR has fired 3 pilots……
Will you be the next FR pilot to visit the White house on a “no biscuit and no tea” meeting?
...I don't know if MOL travels on J/S, but STN NO: 1 "Bilko" does, but thats because he is scared of flying....me thinks

Aviation in itself is not inherently dangerous but, like the sea, it is inordinately unforgiving of any carelessness, incapacity or neglect....

[ 18 July 2001: Message edited by: Scandinavian ]

Kaptin M
18th Jul 2001, 18:51
Want him??
I think (by court order) - in the name of consistency and equality, he, and ALL other management, should always travel in the jump seat, if only to prove that their actions in sacking Captain XXX were totally unbiased, and their motives solely for the good of the company.
Leadership by example...that's the spirit, Mr McLeery!

Ailing Bob
18th Jul 2001, 18:54
I've flown with them a few times and every time time it was pure shyte! Reservations is a mess, the aeroplanes are in a really shoddy state, theyve dragged air travel down to the level of bus travel.
I used to cosole myself by reminding myself that I'd saved a few quid, but now I don't bother anymore since they tried to offload me as they'd overbooked.
Aer Lingus is too expensive so roll on Go and Easyjet with something in between, you can't lose.
I think its a disgrace the way they sacked those pilots although admitedly I don't know the full story, but the way they sacked them was pretty piff poor.
I think we Ppruners should boycott Ryanair over this action and leave them to cater exclusively for the ignorant masses.
Let the word filter out that Ryanair the low cost (shabby) airline is avoided by members of the airline/aviation industry.
Mick says all publicity is good doesn't he?

18th Jul 2001, 20:46
:p :confused: :confused: :confused: ;) cathay have fired 48 pilots.the rest are working.this show that strike action will not work in dublin .a small minority will be fired . this will act as a catylst in returning another small minority to workwhich will shortly become a larger minority and eventually a majority with the most stubborn ones probably sacked as well. the concept of "every man for himself" will once again reign at fr.strikes in this instance will not work.try to talk to the bosses.its easier :rolleyes: lots of confused and concerned pilots wondering how to pay the mortgage this winter if this emotion driven and misguided strike ballot goes ahead.the above is my opinion guys ,take or leave or enlighten :eek: sympathy to cd and md

18th Jul 2001, 20:50
I'd have happily swopped my seat for a j-seat position..if I'd known, or even been on the flight :rolleyes:. Wonder if anyone on board would have done the same if announced..?
5 crew, 4 seats..hmmmm, I might have shared a knee with one of the nice dollybirds !! ;)

oh, look, down at the bottom of the page..Ryanair pilot recruitment placard, they must be a few short, let check me hours...

19th Jul 2001, 00:06
I hope the pilots go on strike - O'Leary needs to be thought a lesson. If they bend down and take this **** from him he will be able to do whatever he wants. Maybe they could get the fire service on their side like the Ryanair baggage handlers did and shut down the whole airport. That would put enormous pressure on O'Leary to sort the mess out.

19th Jul 2001, 00:14
Yeah, Irishboy, that's a BRILLIANT idea. Don't you remember that when the Baggage handlers were on strike and "closed" the airport - IT WAS THE DAMN RYANAIR PILOTS WHO WERE THE ONLY ONES FLYING. Their attitude to the loaders was "Screw you" but now the boot is on the other foot...
PS I can't stand the arrogant corporate attitude fostered by O'Leary.

19th Jul 2001, 00:29
WideBodiedEng > Yeah, maybe you're right about the boot on the other foot now - I don't know the full story about the baggage handlers' dispute. Did they ever get what they wanted out of O'Leary?

19th Jul 2001, 00:29
I doubt it O'Leary anticipated the furore, it look like a very expensive settlement is due.
Sacking the chief pilots daughter, that's a warning to all that no one is safe.

The fact that he didn't follow the normal procedures verbal/written warnings etc is going to cost him dearly.

This may not cause trouble this time, but there will be a blowup soon.

19th Jul 2001, 00:43
As far as I know the baggage handlers didn't really win. If they did it was a pyrrhic victory. I have heard that most of them are "gone" (Not in the Chilean sense, but with OLeery you never know...........)
Main thing was we were grounded but Racketair kept going. If it wasnt for the loaders they'd never get those fantastic turnarounds.

19th Jul 2001, 02:24
I hope and urge EVERY IALPA MEMBER OF RYANAIR to go and vote in favour of industrial action. This situation is intolerable. I also call upon Capt PPRuNe (Danny Fyne) and every other moderator/site owner on this site to stop showing FR recruitment adverts until such time that FR management attitudes treat us with the respect that we as professional pilots the world over deserve.

19th Jul 2001, 02:25
I doubt it O'Leary anticipated the furore, it look like a very expensive settlement is due.

Steepclimb, you'd want to catch onto yerself boy. Our Mick never does ANYTHING without having thought it through first. That's why he's a multi millionaire with the worlds most succesful airline, and you're just a prat on a bulletin board.
Unless of course the 'very expensive settlement' you refer to is the pilots £100k's each in share options that will go down the swanny if the lads bite the hand that feeds them by breaking that no-strike clause.

The way I see it Mick has thought this through very carefully, and he's in a win win situation...as usual!! :)

19th Jul 2001, 11:41
Scandinavian and Minuteman,

I agree with you 110%. I hope IALPA and BALPA can join forces and DO SOMETHING about this. I do not know, but why is it that I get a feeling you guys on the western side og the North Sea seem a little bit scared (in lack of other words) when it comes to firm actions towards your management. I`m sure any union in Scandinavia would have had frequent visits to the Mahogany Street by now. Get going friends. We are all behind you on this one.

19th Jul 2001, 15:46
From today's Irish Independent..

Sacked pilots planning to sue Ryanair

RYANAIR may face claims for damages from two pilots sacked by the airline's chief. Both pilots are expected to brief lawyers this week in preparation for claims of unfair dismissal and breach of contract.

Members of the Irish Airline Pilots Association section of the IMPACT trade union are raising funds to back possible legal actions. Lawyers will be briefed on working practices within the carrier and inter-personal relations.

Last night Ryanair spokesman Enda O'Toole said: "We cannot comment on anything to do with our employees." Asked if the two sacked pilots were still considered Ryanair employees, he said that he could not comment and had not been briefed by airline chief Michael O'Leary.

On Monday the airline removed a young, newly-qualified pilot, Cliona Duggan, alleging insubordination. She is a daughter of Ryanair's chief pilot Jim Duggan.

It is understood Ms Duggan had complained about what she felt was inappropriate behaviour by a colleague on a flight and had indicated that she did not wish to share rosters with that pilot in future.

Earlier this month, airline chief executive Michael O'Leary personally terminated Captain Martin Duffy's position following Mr Duffy's concerns over the use of 'jump seats' to transport air crews.

Last April Mr Duffy, an opponent of the controversial pay deal concluded last November, was elected chairman of the Ryanair section of the Irish Airline Pilots Association (IALPA) branch of the IMPACT trade union.

In a public acknowledgement that Captain Duffy had been sacked, the airline management issued a notice alleging he had "disrupted and delayed departure of Flight FR 226", when he insisted that he (and his crew) would not position on the jump seats available and would only position in the cabin, "thereby forcing our ramp staff to try to offload some of our checked-in, fare-paying passengers".

Pilots are to meet later this week to decide their response to Ms Duggan's sacking.

Gerald Flynn Industrial Correspondent

19th Jul 2001, 16:27
Yo Max Alt, me wonders are you the great MO'L himself. MO'L has done great things for Ryanair but on this count he looks if he's on a sticky one..but sure Mick what's a 100k to a ex clongownian? As you say you'll win win. We are all watching!

19th Jul 2001, 16:48
IF.....the aforesaid information is correct in regard to Mr O'Leary, I would expect that his uneven handedness and bad managment tactics, will ultimately backfire with some force.

The ONLY way aeroplanes make money for an airline is when they fly. There is grave danger that Mr O'Leary is, seemingly, overstepping the boundaries of good managment sense in upsetting the very people who do the flying. Huge mistake, HUGE!

19th Jul 2001, 18:21
If this airline is an attempt to emulate SW, then they've gone about it bass ackwards...

19th Jul 2001, 18:24
I may be only a 'prat on a bulletin board' Maxalt but I've been around the houses a few times.

Glad you're doing well, Maxalt,don't get complacent will you?

With success comes confidence, confidence brings more success but too much success breeds arrogance.
I've no doubt he saw it as a golden opportunity to rid himself of a problem child.

Potentially though, if the reasons for Ms Duggan's problems are true, it might fatally undermine the authority and or confidence of the chief pilot.

But O'Leary's list of enemies grows by the day. It's only a matter of time beofore he trips up. He'll remain a millionaire. I'll remain a 'prat on a bulletin board'. But I hope he doesn't bring down the airline with him.

PS Maxalt do we know each other?

19th Jul 2001, 19:45
My condolences to Cliona and Martin and best wishes for any forthcoming legal action. If legal action is taken please make sure to drag Ryanair's name through the papers as often as possible and take MOL for every penny you can.

MOL should ask himself the question why was a Dublin crew positioning to operate flights out of Stansted. The answer, as he knows all to well, is that the airline is a shambles , we are woefully short of crew and typically overstretched. What or who is the root cause of all this? Why it's MOL himself, surely the first Irishman in history not to be able to organise a piss up in a brewery.

No-one has any confidence in the Chief Pilot and any authority he possesses exists purely because he is MOL's stooge and mouthpiece. When JD left Stansted he was basically bought off with shares and position and now his daughter has been sacked it will be interesting to see if his outlook changes.

What am I saying, we all know what is important to JD so it looks as though family gatherings at the Duggan houshold will never be quite the same.

Anyone at Ryanair who actually thinks that they are ever going to see the £100K of shares needs to get at grip on reality and probably seek help as people like that show tendencies to believe in the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy.

300 pilots equates to £30million worth of shares and even though MOL may believe that the sun shines out of his a**e I'm afraid he won't be able to produce those shares out of that very same orifice.

A copy of the Bob The Builders Greatest Hits to all the believers. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

19th Jul 2001, 21:56
The cryptic comments about inappropriate behaviour on the flight deck are interesting. Does FR have a brewing 'personal space issue' in the offing too? Wonder who the skipper in question is. Don't tell me...I bet I can guess. The ould sleazebag himself! :eek: DISCO PILOT!!

Best Western
19th Jul 2001, 22:20
These issues seem to call into question the whole safety ethos of Ryanair as a company.

So, Pilot X and Y spoke up about something that they were not happy about, and were sacked…

Pilot Z thinks of saying something… but fears he may lose his job… does something that he thinks is not a good idea....

If you are intimidated and frightened by the powers that be to do things that you think could be unsafe, or face being sacked, you may be putting your life and those of 189 other souls behind you at some risk.

Sure what’s the risk… 999 times out of 1,000 no risk… but you are paid to be at your best the other 1/1000th of the time.

By accepting this "I am incharge of your flight attitude from the CEO", I believe that you are not being professional pilots. just how much is IR£100k's worth of share options?

Pilot X was professional and correct in saying No. We should all congratulate him for that. I just hope all of the rest of FR crew also know how to say no if and when necessary.

Im glad im not there.

19th Jul 2001, 22:48
I don't think that I can ever remember a CEO so deliberately tear his company apart before, ably assisted by Maxalt.

Who in their right minds would want to work in such an organisation; who would want to invest in them and more importantly, who would want to fly with them?

A new CEO is desperately needed before there is an accident.

20th Jul 2001, 05:49
One question. Are the captains never asked if they will allow someone in the jumpseat? Is there a policy regarding that. Can a captain denie M O L of a jumpseat. And if so is it in the pilot contracts or in the FOM.

20th Jul 2001, 13:25
Seems like you are well placed in the pocket of mister O’Leary. Do you really think he is going to stop, if he can beat you round the bush? Interesting to see he’s next move. WHAT are you guys? God colleagues or p£ssies? For your own sake give him the sign. STRIKE. :rolleyes:

20th Jul 2001, 17:17
Dont strike.
I do not feel that it will accomplish anything other than play into Mr. O`Learys hands, yes he has a plan, and getting the Pilots to strike is part of it.
The is another route to take, not a full frontal attack, it will be a bit slower but will sort the problems our. LEGISLATION. The law is there, European legislation about conduct in the workplace, what about the Bullying, intimidation, human rights, health and safety, Aviation Law. This is one area to implement.
Another is the Media, they should be made aware of our works practices, Pilots and cabin Crew. Ladies and Gentlemen this is your Captain speaking, I have not had a hot meal or a break for the last 10 hours!!!!!, As your sure you want to come flying with me. Your Pursers is currently working on her seventh day on, your life may depend or his/her ability to react. SAFETY. Are you safe towards the the end of a 12-14 hour day with no meal break, no hot meal and the only time out of your seat a walk around!!!!!!!!!!!. Tell the press. O`Leary knows how to play them, we can too.
Irish aviation Authority, a useless bunch of weaklings, lets make them do their job, ops inspections, take action on issues, force Ryanair to have a proper chief Pilots brief, proper safety officers brief. Make them crack the whip.

There are many more roads that we can take, but the very worst to go down is STRIKE. Forget hot head ideas, use you brain. Lets sort this out for once and for all and leave to bullys no place to hide. But lets use brain, not brawn!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

20th Jul 2001, 18:35
Here's a bit of inside stuff...

MOL has been gunning for MD ever since he started organising the Union in Ryanair, to improve the quality of life for all. If you were inside Dublin, you'd already know this.

MD was summond to MOL's office in seconds of the "4 seats 5 crew" problem, because SW in ops TOLD MOL, as he had been told to, of ANYTHING they could pin on MD.

MD was dismissed in the most unusual manner, totally in breach of Irish & European employment law.

There is no doubt MD stands to gain either in terms of unfair dismissal, or reinstatement and punitive damages, but this is NOT the BIG picture here. The cost to MOL is peanuts in comparason to MOL's real agenda. MD was dismissed because he is doing far too good a job. IALPA know it, IMPACT know it. And MOL knows it. MOL wants MD OUT because he is a pain in the a**e, and in the long run will cost MOL a bob or too in getting Ryanair legal, let alone anything else.

CD was dismissed because she refuse to fly with a particular Captain, a Captain who had acted in an unprofessional manner with her before, & with whom she had asked not to be rostered with. A Captain who WAS a Training Captain, but not any more. A Captain who WAS a Base Captain, but not any more. Ask yourself...who really should have been fired??? Why?

It is no coincidence she happens to be JD's daughter.

It is no coincidence that BALPA is trying to get recognition in Stansted and will probably have to ballot the pilots on this issue in the next few weeks.

MOL is clearly trying to send a message to every pilot everywhere.....

" This is MY F*****G Company, and I will do with it what I want. No F*****G union, government or law is going to stop me.... And I HATE pilots because they cost too much"

It is a great company to work for...

You want to be here......

Join today...


20th Jul 2001, 22:25
maybe when we are all on work visa's we will know when to open our mouths (never) and what hours to work (all god sends). It's quite obvious that the more ethnic groups we have the more the pilot body is disjoint and powerless ...as usual mol plays a blinder.

20th Jul 2001, 23:54
What an amazing thread this is....lets call it the "Blame FR on all world problems"...It is quite clear to me that MOL is responsible for all of the following...

World Hunger
World debt.
Bad weather
Lousy neighbours
Mad dogs
striking taxis
Go-Slow train drivers
Early pub closing time
Clock change in winter/summer

I agree with all who have expresseed the views which show Ryanair to be the villan...lets close the company down, put all the pilots and crews on the dole, and of course all the other employees. Aer Rianta will be delighted, Of course the travelling public will be over the moon with joy and I can go back to paying, as I did in 1971 £145 for a Dublin - London return trip..or its equivalent at todays rates...maybe £600..?

Lets keep it up guys and send MOL to damnation..!!!
:mad: :mad: :mad: :eek: :mad: :mad:

21st Jul 2001, 02:47
A slight overreaction, Flame.

There are other solutions to the problem than closing down the entire airline. And a strike is unlikely to result in FR going to the wall.

There have been several stories lately about the autocratic manner in which the airline is run, and about the climate of fear which rules. If true, this cannot be a healthy state of affairs. Something fairly drastic needs to be done.

If relations really are this poor, and fail to improve fairly rapidly, then a serious accident is just around the corner. To be quite honest, I'd prefer to be made redundant because an airline closed than because they had a fatal accident and the public lost confidence in it's safety culture.

21st Jul 2001, 12:58
Picture this. Hypothetical Ryanair interview:-

Interviewer: 'What do you look for in an airline?'

Applicant: 'Job security...'
Interviewer: 'Oh you get that in Ryanair...but don't mention the 'B' word'

A: 'Promotion prospects...'
I: 'We had that...but the 'B' word has been mentioned'

A: 'A base close to where I live, a happy working environment, a good relationship with the management, a good pay without the threat of pay cuts, would you like me to go on. Basically all the things you get at most other airlines.'
I: 'I'm sorry, but I don't think you would fit in here at Ryanair. We expect our pilots to be flexible you know...'

Are we all mugs? Would any of us in Ryanir join now? ;)

21st Jul 2001, 16:37
Have Ryan air become Ryan fear ? :eek:

21st Jul 2001, 20:46
Well Flame,

Let me guess...

Member of management?
Clearly an MOL fan,
Would you be JO, or DO'B, or EW perhaps?
Whoever you are, you're in the minority, now.

Stand by your man
22nd Jul 2001, 06:55

Totally agree re Ryanair banner ad on this site. Isn't there a law about mis;eading information. Is Capt PPRuNe concerned about the integrity of this (superb) site.

Lets take a closer look.....

As a pilot in Ryanair you can expect a great package.

Yeah, right!

The new pay and conditions deal provides for a roster pattern of 5 earlies followed by 3 days off followed by 5 lates followed by 3 days off.

Nope! its 5 on 3 off 5 on 2 off

Our share options over the last 3 years have already delivered a gain of over IRL£100,000 for pilots who have held onto their maximum entitlement

Bo!!ocks. the correct figure is less than half this

At Ryanair you can expect to work hard but the rewards, promotional outlets and security of employment are second to none

Part 1 is accurate, tell the bit about security of employmnet to Martin or Cliona.

Time to banish the Banner, Capt PPRuNe??

(Apologies to Clare hurling fans - Irish in joke!)

22nd Jul 2001, 09:40
It's amazing how different Ryanair and Aer Fungus are. In one airline one manager decides to destroy two employees.

In the other, two employees conspire to destroy one manager!

22nd Jul 2001, 23:03
Well said, tonyryan.

23rd Jul 2001, 21:11
I believe there was a meeting with the Unions both in DUB and STN a few days ago. Anybody want to fill the rest of us people in as to what the outcome was, or what the general feeling was? :confused:

Trixy the Fairy
24th Jul 2001, 11:42
Wasn't Ms Duggan not a ccm with EI up to a few months ago??
Cause if so MOL was lucky it wasn't him in Foleys shoes!!

Stand by your man
25th Jul 2001, 00:49
Quite right, she was.

25th Jul 2001, 13:53
The guts of the argument is "What does the contract say about positioning". Please let us know. Unless we know those facts, it is pointless commenting.

25th Jul 2001, 14:44
Disregard my earlier. Didn't read far enough. Suggest best option is through the Labour Courts. MO'L would have little power there. ;)

25th Jul 2001, 17:13
It's amazing how different Ryanair and Aer Fungus are. In one airline one manager decides to destroy two employees.
In the other, two employees conspire to destroy one manager!

tonyryan you must be the only person on this board who thinks that's all there is to these two events.

26th Jul 2001, 00:53

Apologies for my late reply, but here goes anyway (putting on flackjacket and metal helmet getting into the trench)...

Allow me to be honest...I am a fan of Ryanair and MOL, I am not a member of Staff or have any connecions whatsoever with FR. However, I do recognise the contribution that the company have made to air travel out of Ireland. There is no doubt, and surely no one can disagree with me, that without FR we would all be paying huge money to get off this Island.

As far as the two recent dismissals are concerned...I consider myself an even minded person and cannot understand a Captain wanting a revenue pax taken off a flight in order that he can travel approx 40 minutes to his destination in comfort. Maybe someone can explain to me a good reason for the Capt. adopting the position that he did. With regard to the second incident..how is a Capt to have proper charge of his aircraft if the person in the right hand seat refuses to obey a direction, that neither involved danger or compromised safety..?
:( :( :rolleyes: :( :( :(

26th Jul 2001, 02:59
Flame, in the absence of the full facts in the cases you refer to, I think anyones attempts at explaining them would be purely speculative.
And that fact simply reinforces my point; that there is more to this than the flippant remark thrown out by the contributor above (tonyryan).

26th Jul 2001, 03:27

Engage brain before keyboard in future please, you obviously do not know the full facts, actually you do not know any facts!!!!!!!!!!!.

Stand by your man
26th Jul 2001, 19:24

Here we go again, old chap. I believe I have already addressed Capt. Duffy's dismassal in an earlier post. If you're too lazy to read it, then I'm not going to retype it so let me qoute:

Whoa, steady on.
Captain X did NOT refuse a jumpseat. The facts are: He plus co-pilot plus 3 CCMs showed up at the gate to py to STN. There was one seat in the cabin and 3 jumpseats. Ergo, 5 into 4 does not go. Not unreasonably he pointed this out and asked OPS to solve the problem. A standby pax was unloaded and ALL FIVE crew boarded and took their seats and were ready to position to STN. Then the operating capt was radioed to offload the positioniong capt/co-pilot. This they did and returned to OPS. They were summoned DIRECTLY to Michael O'Leary and roundly abused with a string of expletives too crude to use here!!! After a farcical "investigation" which denied him sight of the "evidence statements" against him, Capt X was sacked. Just like that.
I am disturbed that this is being debated as if the issue is the rights and wrongs of crew positioning in jumpseats. I repeat: THERE WAS NO REFUSAL TO JUMPSEAT. THERE WERE 4 SEATS (INCLUDING JUMPSEATS) FOR 5 CREW. WHEN AN EXTRA SEAT WAS MADE AVAILABLE ALL CREW BOARDED. RYANAIR OPS ORDERED THE FLIGHT CREW TO OFFLOAD.


As regards the second dismissal, again if the facts were as you state then FR might have a case. However, my info (not from the lady herself but from mutual colleagues) is that the Capt concerned breached FR SOP in an irregular an dangerous manner and contrary to all principles of good CRM. Her PROFESSIONAL judgement was that she should not continue to fly with him. This is a subjective decision on the day and she cannot be objectively faulted for it. Any pilot has a RESPONSIBILITY to do as she did.

As regards your admiration for MOL lets agree to differ. Just let me ask: "have you ever met the man?" The private face is quite unlike the pleasant public persona. Breaking the BA/EI monopoly, while worthwhile, does not qualify one for sainthood. After all, didn't Hitler make the trains run on time??????????

26th Jul 2001, 21:09
Capt Senseless,

Do you not for a moment believe that Foleys departure from your beloved company was not orchestrated over trade union recognition issues?

Equally do you ot at least suspect that MD's dismissal from FR was in some way to do with trade union recognition?

Perhaps my cynicism was lost on you.

26th Jul 2001, 21:17
please reply CAPTAIN SENSIBLE.the man that defends a crap company that is now losing 3 large ones a month.......back to doing tea boy on the 74 !

Celtic Emerald
26th Jul 2001, 21:54
What's that Hogg???????

I can't possibly understand why you would ever be interested in this subject :confused:

Gotham City now eh. My you are quite a little movie buff aren't you ;)

Whats SOP mean for the less well informed. In the second case was it the captain's flying skills that were called into question or his social skills (if you get my drift)? In other words what exactly bloody happened???


26th Jul 2001, 22:06
tonyryan you seem to have got my point then...do I have to spell it out again? By the way, I think the word you mean to use was 'sarcasm'.

bearcat the title of this thread is: Ryanair fire pilot union chairman. I'm not sure how you now make the jump onto ALT. Trying to distract us perhaps?

Stick to the subject.

26th Jul 2001, 23:40
Yeah Sensible, I admit I am trying to rise ya!

I will leave you alone for a while....rgds Capt Bear

27th Jul 2001, 00:24

I think you picked up on the wrong end of my comment. The point was simple - In one out fit SIPTU tells management where to go - in the other mamangement tell IMPACT where to go.

27th Jul 2001, 01:20
Nearly right. MD did not refuse the jumpseat. He said 5 into 4 wont go and expressed his preference for a seat in the cabin. After all two of them would have to have cabin seats and MD wanted one of them. Hardly unreasonable. IALPA source says that MD was clearly sacked because he had got up MOLs nose as IALPA rep. That's an attack on all FR pilots so stand by your man.
Same source says CD did not refuse to fly with the old lecher from Lu**on. She was PF. He disconnected the autopilot twice in the middle of an IMC approach. Fantastic CRM what? In IMC she wanted to use a/pilot. On the ground after that sector I heard he tore strips off her for her attitude!! ie she wished to follow normal SOPs he upset her so much that she had to get off the return flight. Isn't that what a professional pilot is supposed to do if unable to operate FOR ANY REASON? Then she was sacked for that!! Would JO and MOL have sacked her if she'd stayed on board? Doubtful. Her real crime in MOLs eyes was leaving the flight. What a cowboy outfit. They should replace the harp with Mickey Mouse. Support the "DUBLIN TWO"

Billy the Kid
27th Jul 2001, 12:27
Sad news for Irish Aviation. Bust of luck for the two pilots.

However I find it interesting that two topics have been posted in the same number of days, regarding massive investment and expansion to the ryanair network.
This could not be propaganda designed to take the public and business world away from what appears to be a brewing labour dispute. :eek:

Stand by your man
27th Jul 2001, 13:14
Celtic Emerald SOP = Standard Operating Procedure.
I think Crossfeedclosed has eloquently answered your 2nd question!

Billy the kid Noooooooo! Couldn't possibly be so ;) ;)

28th Jul 2001, 05:41
Hey Guys;

I guess I was correct in saying that I was putting on my flak jacket and getting into the trenches.

As for some of the replies to my questions. Is there a need for some people to be so rude and insulting to me, for making my opinions known to all and sundry.

And, as for the 2 points raised, not one person has answered either of my points

28th Jul 2001, 13:08
Why didn't he just say nothing and let the A/C depart to STN without the positioning captain?
I can't understand why anybody would 'demand' a seat in the cabin, I've flown in a Ryanair cabin a few times in the past and its definitely not an experience I'd like to repeat, even for £5!


Stand by your man
29th Jul 2001, 02:52
Flame, exactly how stupid are you?
You posted:
And, as for the 2 points raised, not one person has answered either of my points

for the record your two points were:
As far as the two recent dismissals are concerned...I consider myself an even minded person and cannot understand a Captain wanting a revenue pax taken off a flight in order that he can travel approx 40 minutes to his destination in comfort. Maybe someone can explain to me a good reason for the Capt. adopting the position that he did. With regard to the second incident..how is a Capt to have proper charge of his aircraft if the person in the right hand seat refuses to obey a direction, that neither involved danger or compromised safety..?

Now, your first point.......Capt Duffy "adopting the position that he did". If you read my post above you will discover that the only position he adopted was to state that 5 people could not position on 4 seats (one cabin + 3 J/S). Do you disagree???? He did NOT refuse to occupy a jumpseat. Can I make it any clearer for you?? It was not a case of a Captain wanting a revenue pax taken off a flight in order that he can travel approx 40 minutes to his destination in comfort. The only reason a revenue pax would be offloaded was to allow the full positioning crew of 5 (Capt, co-pilot and 3 CCMs) to travel. This has been laid out in great detail for you...whats your problem...is it the math...or are you blinded by the sunlight emanating from the rear end of MOL.

Noe for your second point.....kindly reread Crossfeedclosed's excellent post above. Ponder the bit about disconnecting the autopilot. Now your second point was: how is a Capt to have proper charge of his aircraft if the person in the right hand seat refuses to obey a direction, that neither involved danger or compromised safety..?

Do you understand that a stunt like that is DANGEROUS and COMPROMISES SAFETY???
If you don't then you have nothing useful to contribute. If you do, then why do you post such drivel as:
And, as for the 2 points raised, not one person has answered either of my points

If you STILL do not consider your points answered perhaps you are indeed irredeemably stupid. Your incomprehension beats me anyhow.

Cisco Kid
29th Jul 2001, 08:00
Why does anyone bother to work for this tosser?(sorry, things like ,"need the money ,family to support ",etc. not accepted)

29th Jul 2001, 20:27
Hey that's an easy one to answer...

If you're Irish, who else are you going to work for? there ARE only 2 players.

If your British, it is a great stepping stone. (Is there anyone left at RYR who is British?)

If your European, you make up the bulk of the RYR pilot workforce in STN, and you get better pay for this abuse in Sterling, than working in the Eastern Block for beans. Whilst they can get a work permit, they will come. They don't speak English too well though...

If your from Downunder, again, there IS no work back home unless your Grandfather worked for Quantas.


Market demand...

But the good news is, there isn't many Type Rated Crews left. And the ones that do work at RYR are getting organised......


30th Jul 2001, 03:21
Stand by your man;

Many many thanks for the insults and glorious comments, you must be having a really bad day. Now listen up brightspark..!!, If I pay MOL one penny to fly from DUB to anywhere..then I have more right to a seat than any Capt. The bottom line is, whether you like it or not, is that people like me pay everyones wages in Ryanair and if some Capt, with dillusions of grandeur thinks otherwise , he is sadly mistaken.

Obviously from you comments, you have no problem with FR going out of business (and it seems you would love it to happen), I am sure that paying £500 / £600 for a return economy ticket between DUb & LHR is no problem to you at all, but to ordinary folk like me, who must dig deep into their own pockets to afford air travel its a totally different matter.

Ryanair management have got it right and are having various business accolades heaped on them, by business leaders, whom I guess, know more about running an airline than you will ever know

I have no doubt that another dose of abuse will come from you shortly...I sure hope that you are not employed in a flying capacity seeing that you have no control over your emotions at all

By all means, tell me I am wrong or incorrect, but hey..try and keep it civil, please

30th Jul 2001, 09:56
Flame, you must realise that your comments such as "The bottom line is, whether you like it or not, is that people like me pay everyones wages in Ryanair and if some Capt, with dillusions of grandeur thinks otherwise , he is sadly mistaken." will only provoke more vitriol because you are showing a total lack of understanding of the situation.

I will attept to clarify it to you in laymans terms because you are obviously not familiar with all the terminology and other aspects of what is involved in a crew positioning for duty.

There is a crew, which consists of one Captain, one First Officer and three Cabin Crew. All these people are required to in order for their flight to be able to operate. Remove any one of them and the flight is grounded until a replacement can be found, which is never an easy task, especially if you are undercrewed as most airlines are these days.

This Crew have been rostered to operate a flight out of Stansted. The crew are obviously not starting from Stansted but from Dublin. This may be because they are based in Dublin or because they all ended up there after their last operational flight. It doesn't really matter. Due to the inefficiencies of a company with not enough crews to go around they have to position crews.

The problem for companies positioning crews before a duty is that the positioning time has to be included in the maximum duty time they are allwoed to operate if it is immediately before the scheduled duty. Therefore, the positioning has to be as short as possible otherwise it is a waste of time if by the time they get to their aircraft they don't have enough duty hours left to operate all the sectors they are scheduled for.

I hope you are still with me on this. The flight that the Crew are scheduled to fly out on to position to Stansted is almost full. There are two jump seats available on the flight deck and one spare cabin crew seat available in the cabin. Only one passenger seat is empty on the flight. Still with me? That equates to only four seats which are empty on the whole aircraft. Now, there are five members of this crew who have been rostered to position on this flight so that they can get to Stansted and operate another scheduled flight on behalf of Ryanair, full of fare paying passengers like yourself. Unfortunately, someone has made a boo boo here. An extra seat has been sold and so there are not enough seats available for ALL the positioning crew.

The Captain of this positioning crew informs his operations people that there is a seat too few for his crew to position to Stansted to operate the other flight. What are they, operations, going to do about it? It is no use positioning only four of them as it takes a minimum of five crew members to operate the flight out of Stansted so unless they can all go they might as well stay where they are. Without five of them, two flight deck and three cabin crew the Stansted flight they are scheduled to operate is going nowhere and no doubt the cost to Ryanair of delaying or cancelling a flight is going to be very high.

Still there? In this case, operations advised the people in charge of boarding to remove one of the passengers so that the whole crew could position to Stansted and operate their flight and so generate a lot of money for Ryanair. Normally passengers are offloaded for whatever operational reason based on their fare status. For example, if you were on a free or reduced fare ticket you would be near the top of the list of people asked to get off whereas if you had purchased a full fare ticket you would be well down that list and fairly secure in the knowledge that if only one person has to be offloaded then it isn't going to be you.

So, for operational reasons, one passenger was offloaded and therefore there are now enough seats to accomodate the positioning crew. Two on the flight deck, one cabin crew jump seat and two passenger seats. The Captain, using his privelege of rank requests one of the passenger seats together with another member of the crew.

Now this is where it obviously becomes complicated for some of you. As with any chinese whisper and no doubt a management twist on the facts it first appears that the Captain, who is a union organiser and therefore the antichrist as far as Ryanair management are concerned has offloaded a passenger so that he may travel in some tyoe of comfort instead of using a jump seat. Well, that would suit the management and by the sound of it, Mr O'leary used the opportunity to get rid of this thorn in his side, quite obviously without all the facts before him.

I certainly hope that this Captain takes the whole issue to tribunal and gets reinstated and compensated for this injustice. The penalty against mr O'leary should be punitive because of the 18th century style of man management used.

So Flame, this Captain did not have delusions of grandeur, in fact he asked his operations people to solve the problem so that the company could operate a scheduled flight and thus increase revenue for the company. The operations people obviously realised that the inconvenience to one passenger and the possible loss of revenue from that one passenger was far outweighed by the need to operate another flight full of revenue passengers at all costs. Had you paid only one penny to Mr O'leary then there would have been a highly likely chance that you would have been that unfortunate passenger that had to be offloaded.

Your quote Ryanair management have got it right and are having various business accolades heaped on them, by business leaders, whom I guess, know more about running an airline than you will ever know" only goes to show how easily some of you are duped by the press releases by that same management who have very little understanding of the concept of loyalty and the fostering of goodwill from its employees.

The Captain concerned was fired purely because of his union work and the excuse used is nothing but a red herring. I am sure you don't treat your staff or are treated by your bosses in such an obviously underhanded manner.

You obviously enjoy the cheap fares that Ryanair have brought to the marketplace. I would suggest you get all your facts right before you spout off about things you clearly know nothing about. Personally I am suprised that the rest of the Ryanair flight crews have not yet take some sort of industrial action to get the fired Captain re-instated. You may yet be left with no alternative but to pay the whole hog airfare if the Ryanair pilots ever get their act together and show how expensive it can be for management to screw around with peoples lives like this.

Chimbu chuckles
30th Jul 2001, 11:32
MOST EXCELLENT!!!!! :cool:

30th Jul 2001, 13:37
Ozdude, well said.

Flame, it won't come any better than that. What do you have to say?

beaver eager
30th Jul 2001, 15:04
Hear! Hear! Chimbu chuckles,

Management wanted him out, so it is quite likely, that had he kept quiet and allowed just four members of his positioning crew to board (in accordance with the available seats), they would have sacked him anyway for not acting professionally in bringing the problem to the attention of the operations staff whilst there was still time to do anything about it!

If they were out to get him... Well, rocks and hard places spring to mind.

I was talking to a mate of mine's wife yesterday who works for the Ryans at Prestwick and apparently, the pilots all got wined and dined at the company's expense to brainwash them into phoning the CAC and registering their opposition to the UK pilots being a single bargaining unit. If the management don't want it so badly, it must be good for the pilots.

And don't you just love it... Flame getting flamed! :D

30th Jul 2001, 16:52
OzDude Excellent post, well thought out reply , me'thinks you maybe closer to this story than you are letting on, when this is taken to the tribunal as it surely will be,perhaps it would be a good idear for you to offer your services as a representative of the said captain, ;) I am sure you would win ;) I.I

30th Jul 2001, 17:08
If Ryanair want to withdraw from any of
their routes, then there are plenty of
other low cost airlines willing to take
their place.

So, there is no way that fares will
ever reach Flame's "£500-£600" mark
again. I'm sick and tired listening to
this old FR chestnut.

30th Jul 2001, 21:39
I dont want to pay £19.99 for a Dub-Lon return and be treated like shyte, I'd happily pay about £50-£60 for efficient, on time, polite service. The last time I travelled with Ryanair (and it will be the last time) when I tried to complain, the amount i'd paid for my ticket was thrown back in my face as if the quality of service you receive is directly proportional to the fare paid, this is not conducive to good customer service, sort it out Mick or say bye bye to the discerning customers.

[ 31 July 2001: Message edited by: Pengineer ]

31st Jul 2001, 01:42
What the hell has that got to do with this thread? Stop moaning! If you want a meal, a coffee and a seat number then go and pay your £50 to £60. The choice is yours, you'll feel a lot better for it I'm sure(!)

31st Jul 2001, 02:02
Come on Flame, or has your high horse deserted you? This total lack of competence and arrogance by FR management is disgusting to all professional pilots worldwide. I repeat my call on Danny Fyne to remove all FR advertising on this website until such time as FR can be seen to be giving pilots such as Danny and every single other pilot the respect we expect and deserve.

New Bloke
31st Jul 2001, 02:19
A bit naive methinks Minuteman. If this were to happen it would imply that the management of this board endorsed all of the other products advertised there. This is a cracking debate, let’s not get dragged into the PPRuNe Finance debate.

31st Jul 2001, 02:32
Yep minuteman, betterr watch out or they'll stick you with a tag-line like the one me and New Bloke have under our names!

And well put Ozdude! It's depressing how readily the public (like Flame) swallow the propaganda and regurgitate it verbatim...as if they have a personal investment at stake. Brainwashing is alive and well in the 21st Century.

[ 30 July 2001: Message edited by: CaptSensible ]

31st Jul 2001, 09:32
Minuteman, WTF has removing the Ryanair ad got to do with this? Personally, I would have thought that as long as they are prepared to pay for their advert then they are also supporting this website and therefore providing us with the opportunity to discuss the problems. I think your proposal is a bit like cutting off your nose to spite your face.

While there are obviously some problems in Ryanair over their management techniques, they are probably no worse than many other companies discussed on here. This particular article is about the MDs style of management and his apparent faux pas which is likely to come back and haunt him.

At least thanks to the likes of Ryanair we have a forum where we can air our views because they obviously realise that by adverising here they are reaching a very wide audience of prospective recruits. Not sure what the managemennt of this site feel about it but your calls seem to me to be rather petty.

Until the pilots at Ryanair are prepared to take their own action why should the Pprune management listen to you?

31st Jul 2001, 11:28
Excellent Posts, OzDude!

And Flame, I might add one thing to OzDude's nice and long post to you.

If a passenger has to be offloaded due to over-booking (as in this case) the airline will normally offer a certain amount of money (typically 50 or 100$ on a short-haul flight) to any passenger who will voluntarily disembark and wait for the next flight.

Normally there are always passengers that volunteer for this option.

Actually last week I had a PAX on one of my flights who was offered a 100$ to offload. She got extremely pi$$ed and made a large fuss, when it turned out it was a seat for her anyway... ("But you promised me a hundred dollars!!!")

Dunno if Ryanair makes such an offer, but I would guess they do. ...or? :rolleyes:


31st Jul 2001, 12:11
Unlikely, as the only direction that cash flows is from the SLF to Ryanair- NEVER in the opposite direction !

Ranger One
31st Jul 2001, 17:39
Agree with the plaudits for Ozdudes post... to which I would add one thing, SBYM stated clearly a few pages back that the offload in this case was a *standby* who had no 'right' to fly in the first place...

Other than that I'm just an interested spectator on this thread!

Stand by your man
31st Jul 2001, 18:55

Go straight to the top of the class! :cool: I feel quite ashamed of my inadequate prose having read yours. :o If friend FLAME now understands plain English, you have achieved a task of Herculean proportions.

BTW, can any one canfirm that STN based cabin crew, Brian Dowling (Big Brother) was threatened with the sack if stayed in the Big Brother house. Bilko only relented when he saw a chance of some cheap publicity. Sounds normal......

31st Jul 2001, 21:42
Seems like 'FLAME's' pilot light has gone out!
Maybe he needs a penny for the meter! :p

Tom the Tenor
1st Aug 2001, 00:51
Have heard a rumour that a chair went flying out the window of The White House recently in rage when word got back that some of the newer Russian drivers were not really able to speak English very well! Petulance, or what?

1st Aug 2001, 02:02
The point I'm trying to make is that if this is a bulletin board for professional pilots that is run for the benefit of professional pilots worldwide I don't see any reason to advertise a company on the site which has obviously an agenda bigger than the welfare of its employees...
General opinion is that FR made a huge mistake over Martin Duffy and set a dangerous precedent for every other pilot working there. The fact then that a website run by pilots (etc) for pilots (etc) gives time and space to them smacks in the face of what 99.9999999% of pilots wish.
The message is "Thanks but no thanks. We have pilots' best interests at heart."
Unlike some.

This sacking issue is a huge affair. Ryanair have not gone against just a one off sort of event, but standard industry practice. Landing with the gear down is standard industry practice! No normal disciplinary channels followed, no investigation to the circumstances et al. So everyone else in Ryanair has the sword of Damocles hanging over them? No? So what is the real issue here. It's been covered already. MOL does not want union interference, so here we are today. Put yourself in his shoes..if this was your own company this happened in you'd be up in arms! This could set a precedent industry wide (highly unlikely I know) so you have to protect your job. I hope everyone in Ryanair stands up to this dreadful treatment so it can be run like an airline and not a pilots' farm.

1st Aug 2001, 03:01

Superb posting, and I bow to your letter writing

I need a little time to get back to you on it, but I am sure that the snipers on the list are just waiting for me to stick my head again out of the trench. As an informative post, its the best I read yet

Watch this space

1st Aug 2001, 03:51
Tom the Tenor
Heard it too. But why should that be news? Fr have had pilots who couldnt speak the queen's english ever since they had Rumanian pilots on their 1-11s. Bet it's interesting when the sh*t hits the fan and the co-pilot can't communicate with the captain.

Magnus Picus
1st Aug 2001, 12:59

This thread is an excellent example of how the skim-readers amongst us can infuriate the majority.
Flame, give yourself half an hour and a large cup of coffee and read ALL of this thread and you will see why you refer to snipers. They are merely resorting to abuse because you have not listened.
Good Luck - All at RYANAIR, I hope the tyranny dissipates soon. Your BALPA colleagues are watching with interest.

1st Aug 2001, 16:00
To Ozdude

you are fundamentally wrong, just look at the facts-

-if the whole crew as you claim had to position to Stansted (ie all 5) how come the 3 cabin crew went on the positioning flight (and left one empty seat in the cabin) and operated their rostered flights out of Stansted?

- what captain and f/o do you think ultimatly operated the flights out of Stansted that were not crewed because of the positioning captains refusal to position from Dublin to Stansted in a jump seat? Answer-not penny pinching but a Stansted captain and an f/o called in on their days off @ £200 each + flight pay.

- look at the original company notice at the start of this thread, which states "the captain was instructed by operations to position on the jump seat, he refused and was therefore off-loaded from the flight"-so, it had nothing to do with the number of seats- just simple refusal to carry out duties

- your reference to alleged conversations between Ops and the captain in question is pure speculation.......but the cabin crew seem to have shown better judgement apparently without any reference to anyone- don't you agree?

Flame- this might stop your lights going out

1st Aug 2001, 16:11
Honest Joe,I really feel sorry for you,but there is help out there. :D

1st Aug 2001, 17:59
Honest Joe, it would be interesting to know what reasons were given to the STD Captain for bringing hiim/her in on their day off!.

1st Aug 2001, 18:08
£200 quid each huh?
Cheap at the price eh? I should think old Nasty Mick was rubbing his hands with glee.

Every man has his price they say, but 200 squids seems surprisingly little for selling out your colleagues.
Well done guys, hope you enjoyed the blood money. :(

Magnus Picus
1st Aug 2001, 18:18
Honest Joe,

Your opinion is from the 'other side', be it Ops, Management or you being MOL himself. What can we, the Professional Pilots, make of this new slant?

My take on this is that should your version be true then why is it the Captain who is asked to stay behind?
Are Cabin Crew paid more for Overtime?
Did the Captain have a few more minutes spare before he ran out of duty?
Or did operations want to screw him about with another night away from base rather than the C/C?
Did the Captain believe he was making a better decision than what the monkeys in Crew Control were asking him? (Not all in rostering eat peanuts but Ryanair are known to pay them)
Your opinion is very valid, Honest Joe but it doesn't alter the fact that the decision by MOL was extreme, ulterior in motive and political. It will, even if your story is true, be a fair case for wrongful dismissal. MOL benefits from modern European open skies laws, he shall now suffer at the hands of its modern Employment Laws too.

2nd Aug 2001, 11:51
I would just like to add that in most good companies a postioning crews ticket is generally of a higher priority than that of a full fare paying pax. As Ozdude touched on, this is to protect a service "down the line" - better to offload a couple of pax than delay or cancel a whole 'plane load.

CaptSensible : I reckon that that is a low shot unless you know that the crew being called out knew the reasons why!

Capt PPRuNe
2nd Aug 2001, 17:02
Due to the number of replies this topic now has to be closed. Please feel free to start a Mk II version.