British Airways - CC Industrial Relations Mk VI

[flapsforty]

Yesterday we closed the forum.
Because people from both sides of the dispute continued to misbehave in the most childish of manners.

Since we Mods are not willing to use our precious free time to babysit an anonymous group of feral toddlers, it is important that all of you refresh your knowledge of the site and forum rules, and stick to them.

This thread is primarily for BA cabin crew to discuss the current situation.
People who are not cabin crew yet feel the need to contribute here, have to remember for whom this thread is primarily meant, and moderate their output accordingly.

Failure to behave according to the above will lead to loss of posting privileges.
Ultimately to the entire PPRuNe site.

[AtlasDrawer]

Any news on the ongoing court case?

AD

[Snas]

Here you are....

BA's opening statement to the High Court:

In a written opening statement, the airline's QC Bruce Carr said the case involved a "key part of what [chief executive] Willie Walsh described last year as BA's 'fight for survival'". On Friday, BA is expected to post pre-tax losses topping £440m for its first nine months.

Mr Carr argued that "crewing levels, even if contained in a collective agreement, are totally inappropriate for incorporation into the personal contracts of individuals. It may be a matter for collective pressure but each employee does not have a legal power to dictate BA's crewing levels."
Mr Carr stressed that "crewing levels only bring BA into line with what competitors are already providing and what BA introduced – with the union's agreement – at Gatwick".

He also pointed out that the current manning levels are comfortably above international aviation standards, with a minimum eight crew required on a Boeing 777. "BA now uses 11. The claimants wish the court to order BA to use 12,"
Mr Carr said.
As a result of the changes, the court heard that BA was able to accept 1,003 requests for voluntary redundancy and grant 637 part-time working applications – enabling savings of £80m over the next 18 months.

Source : - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/epic/bay/7140411/BA-broke-contracts-Unite-tells-court.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/epic/bay/7140411/BA-broke-contracts-Unite-tells-court.html)

[Jockster]

Would BASSA / Unite have objected if BA had imposed an increase in cabin crew compliments aboard their aircraft?

If the answer to this is NO then crew numbers cannot be contractual..

[Litebulbs]

If BA were to impose a 50% pay rise, then I am sure 99.9% of people would accept it. It would definitely be a contractual change though.

[Tiramisu]

3 February 2010

Dear Colleague,
How BASSA waste time and money


The Professional Cabin Crew Council have, for some time, felt that we need to improve relations between employee and employer at BA. By working in co-operation with BA, without losing sight of our own needs, we are confident that we can secure a better, more productive relationship that will have long-term benefits for all of us. We have felt that Unite, and in particular, BASSA have not acted in our best interests, particularly over the past 2 years. Yesterday we found that out for ourselves.

On Monday 1 February 2010 the Professional Cabin Crew Council launched our website www.professionalcrewcouncil.com (http://www.professionalcrewcouncil.com/). Unable to refute our views or any of the information put out on our website, BASSA decided to adopt a dirty tricks campaign.

A senior BASSA rep spent valuable time and good money buying the same domain name as ours, with the .co.uk suffix. He then spent time and money putting hard core pornography on it and adding the title “A professional trade union? I don’t think so.” Unfortunately he did not have the intelligence to hide the fact that he was the purchaser of the domain name, and we have concrete evidence of his identity.

We are disgusted and appalled by the behaviour of a BASSA representative. We are absolutely astounded that, instead of spending time and effort on negotiating this appalling situation that they have put us in, they are wasting their energy and money on offensive and contemptible things like this.

However, it has strengthened our determination and so it should yours. It has proved the point that now more than ever, we need proper representation. We need to stop this strike, before we all get hurt. It has been made clear that people who strike will lose their staff travel, they will risk all of us ending up in shoddy airport hotels, and they may even lose their jobs. Additionally, we have factual information that the temps are being recalled to start work this month. Yet, Unite refuse to negotiate on the Monthly Travel Payment. The Monthly Travel Payment is our only opportunity to secure our jobs against New Fleet, but once New Fleet has started, that negotiating power will diminish.

It was never our intention to get into the usual BASSA “he said, they said” battles. However we feel that this information is so despicable, our community needs to know. Please continue to spread the word about Professional Cabin Crew Council, as they are trying to block our email address with hate mail, and junk mail. Cabin crew interested in the Professional Cabin Crew Council can contact us directly via our website.

We are determined to continue striving for better representation within our company. We have your support and a wealth of support coming in from outsiders – see the attached copy of an email sent to us from an ex-cabin crew colleague. Thank you for your continued support, and faith – keep pushing that boulder!

The PCCC Team
www.professionalcrewcouncil.com (http://www.professionalcrewcouncil.com)
[email protected] (http://www.professionalcrewcouncil.cominfo@professionalcrewcouncil. com)

[Snas]

My mind, it boggles....

[winstonsmith]

UNITE agreed to LGW crewing levels a couple of years ago - I think it will be VERY difficult for UNITE to defend why this is not working for LHR.

Spend money on setting up a similar domain with pornography? Nice knowing what your montly £15 is spent on!!!

[Dawdler]

It seems at least that the fake Facebook page has gone.

[pvmw]

A senior BASSA rep spent valuable time and good money buying the same domain name as ours, with the .co.uk suffix. He then spent time and money putting hard core pornography on it

I can't help but think its another "own goal" by BASSA.

Anyone who finds it will already be looking for the "genuine" site, so they are already a potential PCCC recruit. They are soon going to work out what has happened, and find their way to the real site - so all this is doing is demonstrating to anyone who looks just how desperate - and amoral - BASSA are.

[TFlexMax80]

It seems at least that the fake Facebook page has gone.

Ah yes, but not before screenshots, IP logs and other evidence had been gathered I'm sure.

[Matt101]

I also hear BASSA is enjoying a name and shame via text system for those that have volunteered to be Cabin Crew Volunteers. It also includes some personal information about these individuals.

Any sympathy I had for BASSA or their hard core supporters is quite frankly lost given these latest antics.

Time the whole lot of them were dealt with - and I never thought I would mean that quite so sincerely.

Thankfully BA has systems and processes to deal with these sick individuals.

[TFlexMax80]

Thankfully BA has systems and processes to deal with these sick individuals.

So do the Police. Both are being used.

[Matt101]

Glad to hear it. I was shocked when I heard. The person telling me was shocked that anything like this shocked me anymore.

All very shocking.

[Ten West]

Name and Shame?

I can see where the "Name" part comes in, but where's the shame?

Those free-thinking staff members volunteering to keep their airline afloat by working alongside their dedicated colleagues should feel proud of themselves!

We customers salute you. :ok:

[fly12345]

March roster s are being published tonite instead of last night and instead of the usual full list of crew members the new temporary format will only show the name of the crew member operating that service.
Good on ba for introducing yet more ways for discourage and avoid bulling and harassment.

[FreeWilly]

Whois Search - Domain name whois (http://www.whois-search.com/whois/www.professionalcrewcouncil.co.uk)

A quick search would suggest that the domain registrant is one Mark Everard.

I'm not sure how BA management or the BA legal team would view his disgusting behaviour, whoever he is..

[JazzyKex]

I have spent the last couple of trips with some extremely good cabin crew. No animosity, no backbiting (within earshot) and the chance on a couple of occasions to chat to the CSD's about the ongoing situation. Something they are only prepared to do within the privacy of the flight deck...understandable I suppose.

The one thing that has come from these intelligent, articulate people is that they are convinced they, and the rest of the crew will lose significant amounts of money. They numbers on board are not an issue. Their sole concern is that BA has made NO assurances in writing that with the imposition of new crewing levels there will follow imposition of changes to other aspects of their agreements that will directly affect the bottom corner of the pay slip.

The question I have for someone in the know is; has BA said anything like this? The assurances BF has made about maintaining pay for current crew (ignoring the trojan horse of New Fleet, which I know can only be mitigated by a monthly payment), are they assurances that are binding or have any time period?

Are these generally very BA minded people, very anti strike but extremely worried, being concerned about something already put to bed by BA but being talked up as the future by BASSA or are these very genuine concerns?

Also I'm truly sorry to hear the depths that some in BASSA have stooped to with regard to the PCCC...truly appalling and a stain on the character of the many decent but clearly poorly led members.

Good luck to all.

Jazzy

[Lauderdale]

Allegedly he is the chap who likes to fit kitchens...

The BA comrade out in California: £50,000 a year union activist who lives in LA and hasn't flown for a year | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1236471/The-BA-comrade-California--50-000-year-union-activist-lives-LA-flown-year.html)

[Jockster]

Bye bye Mark. Please hand your ID card in on the way out....:D:D

Will he be eligable to vote now that he no longer works for us?

[Diplome]

I would advise some caution.

Before identifying anyone as the owner of that page as a fact it might be wise to let the authorities and the press do their work.

Personally, I can't believe that anyone would leave such an obvious trail so I'll stay a tad cynical for the time being.

[FreeWilly]

Hence my use of the words 'would suggest' and 'whoever he is'!

Quite an outgoing bunch these PCC members would appear to be, oh no, sorry, wrong website..!

[Mariner9]

I'm not sure how BA management or the BA legal team would view his disgusting behaviour, whoever he is..

Immoral maybe, childish and stupid definitely, but I doubt that the alleged posting of a website purporting to represent an organisation that it does not, is either illegal, or could be subject to any disciplinary action from an employer. However, hopefully, such actions will prove to be counterproductive.

[Diplome]

Hopefully PCCC members are gathering screenshots (as offensive as that may be) and contacting the appropriate media representatives.

While BASSA and their members can refuse to respond to PCCC they may have a harder time ignoring SKY News, BBC, etc..

My initial thought was that this was the work of some 13 year old wanting to stir up trouble, but given the history of BASSA to publish absolutely inaccurate statements regarding other unions on their website, to publish names and personal information of individuals who disagree with their position, there may be a "there" there.

Though I still have a hard time believing anyone would be so silly as to leave such an easy trace, especially given the nature of activity.

[Diplome]

As a novice to registering domain names I'm unaware as to whether or not it is easy to use another individual's name as an "owner"

However, I do believe that it should not take long to verify.

Has any statement been produced by BASSA and/or Unite on their boards? The longer they stay silent the more of a problem it becomes.

[Fuel_on_Mixture_Rich]

Well, as you said Diplome, why not let the media do the investigating on behalf of the PCCC and give them some free publicity to boot? I'm sure BBC, SKY, whomever would find it much more interesting than the authorities would, especially in the current climate.

FOMR

[TopBunk]

Before the failed Xmas strike, BASSA made quite a big play about the fact that they would pay £30 per day per member over the strike period.

Now, most people pay BASSA fees by check off, ie direct from salary, so BASSA won't have any idea about their bank account details, and so won't be able to credit members electronically with their 'strike pay'. Furthermore, BASSA will not know who is at work and I'm sure they wouldn't want to pay anyone who is not supporting the strike. Yet more, they won't know who is rostered to work on which day, who is on leave/part time week etc and therefore being paid by BA.

This leads me to draw only one conclusion. BASSA will only pay out the £30 per day to the people who actually man the picket line. They will pay in cash. They will not pay every member (and ex-members!), so by that logic, their stated promise of £30 per day is a pretty hollow promise and will in practise amount to little.

Would a BASSA follower please tell me where my logic is flawed.

[Matt101]

Top Bunk - only playing devils advocate but perhaps a request after the pay checks are out could be made, as I would have thought the company deductions would appear on a Strikers pay slip???

[Caribbean Boy]

The blueprint has been in place for the last 8-9 years in the States (where do you think they are getting their ideas from? ), and this I am convinced is what they are trying to do to the cabin crew in the UK. Over here, they have turned it into a crappy job for the new entrants, and I think if any of you have gotten on a US carrier lately, you will notice the service is usually not very good. I wonder why....Yaletown, I know that there are many cabin crew who are concerned about their terms and conditions, that their job might get worse, and are even prepared to strike in order to protect those T&Cs.

But I have to be blunt: BA cabin crew think this way because they have been isolated from the upheavals during the past eight years. After 9/11, US carriers cut jobs, furloughed many employees (including crew), but BA kept its crew. This was helped by crew taking up BA's offer of voluntary unpaid leave.

But now we are in another and bigger crisis: several airlines such as EOS, Maxjet, Silverjet, XL Airways and FlyGlobespan have gone bust, others like bmi and Aer Lingus are cutting back, BA is losing £1.6m a day. BA has a new fleet at lower cost and might further reduce costs in future. Of course, nobody likes this, but the bottom line is this.

BA cabin crew have got jobs right now and must play their part in saving the company. Need I say more?

[DP.]

I doubt that the alleged posting of a website purporting to represent an organisation that it does not, is either illegal, or could be subject to any disciplinary action from an employer.Perhaps not illegal, but I wouldn't be so sure about disciplinary action. I think you could quite easily make a case that this is yet another attempt at trying to bully the crew behind the PCCC.

Given the current state of relations, I think BA will be taking a very dim view of any hint of bullying.

[Diplome]

I wouldn't be so sure about this statement:

I doubt that the alleged posting of a website purporting to represent an organisation that it does not, is either illegal, or could be subject to any disciplinary action from an employer.

Google "Employee conduct away from the workplace" and you'll find many interesting scenarios where, if the creator of the pornographic website is a BA employee he may be in for some real difficulty in the near future.

[flybymerchant]

Is there no end to how LOW Bassa will go? Have they now stopped even TRYING to pretend to their members that they're a serious and professional group?

When will they realise that their childish and spiteful actions of late only serve to incriminate them in this totally avoidable fiasco?

When will the other 10,000 BASSA members (who have yet to come over to PPruNe) finally wake up to the fact that this union is serving no-one but the precious few at the top?

.....how much more evidence and proof of the lies, the deceit, the malice, the vindictiveness, the bullying and cheating way-of-operating do our cabin crew colleagues need before they're able to open their eyes?


Setting up Pornographic websites?
Feeding lies upon lies to the papers/media channels?
Banning ANY discussion of the Professional Cabin Crew Council on the BASSA forum and telling their members that BA were involved in setting the PCC up?!
Collecting lists of other staff members for Bullying/Harassment/Intimidation purposes and texting them around the company?!

How irresponsible not-to-mention despicable is that?! This behaviour cannot be supported, however silently, by your continued membership of BASSA.


It can't have gone unnoticed by a single BASSA member, however junior and naive, that their 'union' is a dictatorship, just as bad as in any third-world country. Let's be grown-ups here for a second, no-one can claim ignorance of such an overtly and unashamedly corrupt and destructive stance....

......the union 'leadership' take money from the members and only ever further their own agendas,
-they threaten & bully to keep the masses in line,
-they threaten and bully other work groups in the company (and now THEIR unions!) and have a known history of bullying a fellow Cabin Crew Union!!
-they do NOT TOLERATE open discussion
-freedom of speech is openly denied (BASSA forum)
-they will not justify decisions or positions taken, even though the members pay to keep the reps where they are and pay to be 'represented' (talk to the hand, non-negotiation), and everyone knows that, whilst 'everyone is equal' ,the reps are 'more equal than others' (best paid trips etc)!
-Their regime wrote the books on ruling by fear, working to rule & other such classics....


When will this unjustifiable and aggressive violation of industrial representation be brought to an end? When will the members be REPRESENTED?!.....or even asked to vote on anything other than a suicidal strike?!

I had hoped that there was light at the end of the tunnel and that through this forum and others we could show that light to those who had only ever been shown the darkest of dark shadows and told that the light was a totally imaginary concept.....yet if it did somehow exist, in some freaky alternative reality, it would definitely be the construct of Satan himself and inherently evil and dangerous...

When will all this end....? I'm afraid that now it's out of BASSAs clutches, only Willy Walsh knows.....

Let's all hope that he shows some mercy to the very-many very-able cabin crew who vote NO, who vote to SUPPORT THEIR COMPANY & PROTECT THEIR JOBS and come into work alongside the now 2500+ volunteers......and let's hope that he allows the PCC some role in restructuring our once Great Company after it crawls war-torn and ravaged from the battlefield, tentatively taking its first breath of freedom having finally slain the evil BASSA dragon.

[Raffles]

Well how let down, couldn't see any smutty pictures just "POO" written in what looks like poo!! Would like to think the person that did this has a better produced website for their own business.:ugh:

[spin_doctor]

The pornographic website is now a single image of the word 'poo', written in poo. Really, it's embarrassing.

The website keywords include the following:

British airways cabin crew,BA crew,crew strike,professional cabin crew council,BALPA,crew union,new union,pccc, BA crew,crew union

I would imagine that deliberately setting up a website which links the words 'British Airways' to a porn site or a pile of poo might just be of interest to BA.

Bringing the company into disrepute is a sackable offence.

[Diplome]

The individual who registered that site has a good deal more to worry about than simply being fired.

Both the PCCC and BA have a very strong case for libel.

The "Poo" response reminds me of the BASSA post following their false assertion regarding BALPA.

No "We apologize and will print a correction", instead an inappropriate "Foxtrot Oscar".

I continue to be stunned that BASSA's membership isn't insisting that this conduct stop.

[Nutjob]

I also hear BASSA is enjoying a name and shame via text system for those that have volunteered to be Cabin Crew Volunteers. It also includes some personal information about these individuals.

And not all the names are correct, so the morons will be victimising the wrong people. Utter madness.

[midman]

I hope they have got my name right.
I'll look forward to entering into discussion on the subject if they raise it with me, and of course will take the opportunity to appraise them of membership of th PCC. :)

[Lou Scannon]

Just a thought about cabin crew levels. Have Bassa taken into account the night flights where the first and club pax are fed in the lounge prior to departure?

Or the current pax loads which, I hear, are running at under 80%?

Both of these "changes" indicate that the number of cabin crew could be trimmed even closer to the CAA minimum.

[winstonsmith]

Lou Shannon - crewing levels on longhaul flights never change. Even if First is completely empty on both outbound and inbound flights there will be same amount of crew.

Previously there were 15 to 16 crew on 747 with less than 300 pax - a couple of years ago when 747 carried almost 400 pax the number of crew was the same!

If BA removed another 50 seats from 747 - UNITE would still be insisting that the crewing levels should be the same. Go figure.

[binsleepen]

There is now just a hot air ballon on the fake web site with the words "Hot Air" written on it.

Has anyone from the PCC contacted the media?

[Basil]

a website which links the words 'British Airways' to a porn site or a pile of poo
Someone please remind me; wasn't that a method of alienating the upper echelons of society from the proles in Orwell's '1984'?
. . or am I confusing it with some other political essay?

[Diplome]

binsleepen:

Someone may be trying to save their gluteus maximus, though the effort may be a tad late.

I did come across in interesting fact that I hadn't noted previously in the Daily Mail article linked to previously.

The article states:

Last night Mr Everard, who is in charge of the union's website, was away working aboard a BA flight to Oman.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1236471/The-BA-comrade-California--50-000-year-union-activist-lives-LA-flown-year.html#ixzz0eViAsLlx (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1236471/The-BA-comrade-California--50-000-year-union-activist-lives-LA-flown-year.html#ixzz0eViAsLlx)

Has Bassa released a statement stating that no BASSA representatives had anything to do with that disgusting website, and if not, why the hesitation?

[Openclimb]

Oh for God's sake, do keep up!

The article of which the bit about Everard being in Oman and unavailable for comment was from December 17 2009.

In recent news, latest rumour ststes that the BASSA website has been taken down.:eek:

[winstonsmith]

Diplome

BASSA will probably deny having anything to do with it - and as usual say that someone has registered the domain in his name. That's the mantra.

[Diplome]

OpenClimb:

I'm well aware of when the article was issued.

My point was that I had missed the intruiging point that it states that he is in charge of BASSA's website.

It appears that the pornographic site that was operating recently would, more likely than not, be easily within his skill range.

[TFlexMax80]

Looks like BASSAs webman is going to need to sell a lot of kitchens to pay the legal bill he's about to run up...

[gps117]

As an ex BA Employee of 11 years (Crew for 3 1/2) it really saddens me to see how one man has managed to cause so much anger, mis-trust and animosity between a group of operational teams, that 3 years ago, worked together, helped and supported each other and made the day go with a smile, when you popped a few sherries into a bag if you recognised a colleague off the ground, or offered a more comfortable seat, or even a few left over breakfasts and coffee supplies for the engineers crew room

Willie Walsh has come to BA to do one thing, break the unions, and he will. As a supporter of BASSA during the 97 strike at yes voter during the 07 ballot, Bassa’s downfall will be not given an inch when they could (introducing fixed links etc) now BA wants the mile.

I remember days of partying with an entire 767 cabin and flight crew at the dodgy night club in Larnaca, sharing a laugh and a cup of tea with a TRM whilst we waited for the bus full of happy Paris passengers to arrive at 5:00 am, always being welcomed to enjoy the view over London in the jump seat by the Airbus flighcrew (and flying in sideways coming back from Stuggart on very windy December morning ). I cant see that happening now, with people volunteering to break a strike, names and number flying around, the list goes on. Will newbie’s have these memories…well I doubt it from what my friends who still fly are telling me.

What makes BA the best airline to work for…well the pay T’s and C’s definatly helped, so no one should be berated for wanting to give them up, but its the banter and the people that also made it for me, from my years there I met friends for life, (and a few lovers along the way!);)

Don’t let Mr. Walsh and his cronies ruin it for all, because it may be Cabin Crew at the moment, but what’s next? Cruise Pilots? Aviance in BA uniforms at LHR? Load Control for LHR in BRU? Service Air TRM’s on 17K a year?

[HiFlyer14]

Well, as just a plain, old happy-to-serve-customers kind of crew member, without my own business on the side ;), this is all getting very exciting. One minute I'm serving tea and coffee, the next I'm up to my neck in porn, or poo, or hot air!! Good game, good game.

But it's proving to be very interesting this "battle". No, we haven't got funding from BA, no we haven't got their backing nor do we even want it right now. But what we have got is HUGE support from cabin crew, customers, ex cabin crew, other BA employees, even other airline employees! So we are finding in our new "business venture" that many old adages are true:

"He who laughs last laughs longest" AND "Any publicity is good publicity".

So thank you very much BASSA.

Today the Professional Cabin Crew Council www.professionalcrewcouncil.com (http://www.professionalcrewcouncil.com) via our new secure email address [email protected] received the most requests for information from BA Cabin Crew that it has so far received in one day.:D:D:D:D

You've done us proud. You see, BASSA, BA cabin crew have far more intelligence than you give them credit for. Like us, they are starting to see through you. And they don't like what they see.

I am a BA cabin crew member and this is my own view and not that of BA.

[FlexSRS]

Domain name:
professionalcrewcouncil.co.uk

Registrant:
mark everard

Registrant type:
UK Individual

Registrant's address:
The registrant is a non-trading individual who has opted to have their
address omitted from the WHOIS service.

Registrar:
Webfusion Ltd t/a 123-Reg.co.uk [Tag = 123-REG]
URL: 123-reg | Domain names | Domain name registration

Relevant dates:
Registered on: 01-Feb-2010
Renewal date: 01-Feb-2012
Last updated: 01-Feb-2010

Registration status:
Registration request being processed.

Name servers:
ns.123-reg.co.uk
ns2.123-reg.co.uk

Interesting.

a) 123-reg.co.uk is a UK company.
b) They charge for their services, so you would have to pay for it. This makes you traceable, not matter what you tell them your name is.
c) 123-reg.co.uk is in Uxbridge, which....
d) ...would be a short stroll from Waterside for the legal team to submit a request to find out who paid for the site...
e) ...which the company might be glad to do, looking at its clear abuse policy.

I think we will see this played out in the fairly near future.

What a shame for the cabin crew it has descended to this level.

Backfire of epic proportions.

[Diplome]

HiFlyer14:


One minute I'm serving tea and coffee, the next I'm up to my neck in porn, or poo, or hot air!! Good game, good game.


Thank you for the laugh. That was wonderful.:)

[jetset lady]

Well, as just a plain, old happy-to-serve-customers kind of crew member, without my own business on the side http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wink2.gif, this is all getting very exciting. One minute I'm serving tea and coffee, the next I'm up to my neck in porn, or poo, or hot air!! Good game, good game.



Sorry, but you aren't the only one up to your neck in it, HiFlyer. A friend has recently been accused and all but named, of being one of the founder members of PCCC. Despite having nothing to do with it, they are now left wondering whether they will have 4 slashed tyres when they get back from their next trip.

Please do not misunderstand me. I am totally against any strike, have no issues with what you are doing and wish you the best of luck. However, whilst I understand your desire to stay annonymous due to fears for your safety, BASSA supporters, for lack of anything concrete, are now guessing wildly and guessing wrong. People who have nothing to do with this are being targeted.

Good game? Not really, no.

[winstonsmith]

HiFlyer14

Take it as a compliment!

BASSA is EXTREMELY worried about PCCC - otherwise they wouldn't bother with all this nonsense.

[LD12986]

In recent news, latest rumour ststes that the BASSA website has been taken down

The BASSA website has been down down for the past few hours.

[Ten West]

The BASSA website has been down down for the past few hours.

Have they been overrun by Imperial Japanese Army? I thought they were doing well if four of them could take and hold Iwo Jima. ;)

[HiFlyer14]

Hi JetsetLady,

I am very sorry to hear that about your friend. We are aware of this from crewforum. Your friend must use the bullying and harrassment policy that is in place in BA and they will absolutely get 100% protection and support from BA.

I meant the phrase good game entirely tongue in cheek, because of course none of this is a good game for anyone. It is extremely frightening. And the sad thing is that, while BASSA are playing these games, taking BA to court for a ridiculous injunction, conducting a strike ballot and all the other antics outlined very eloquently earlier, our company is suffering and that means that ultimately we the employees will suffer.

If we were not anonymous, we would have no chance of getting our message out to the cabin crew. The BASSA mentality, as demonstrated with all these examples, knows no limits. People did not believe us - we have been saying for some time now that they are bullies, and that we could not speak out. This is the only way that we stand a chance of saving our company. It is a slim chance, but it is a chance nonetheless. We have to take it. Our anonymity is not being done out of malice, it is our only hope to succeed. We sincerely hope that people can see that, and can now see this evil CANCER that exists within our company.

Please pass on our sincere best wishes to your friend.

I am BA cabin crew and this is my own viewpoint and not that of BA.

[redflyer]

Ther're are plenty of ex BAR people working at Flybe at the mo and thay are very happy. I guess they got a grip of reallity.

[SlideBustle]

I cannot believe how low BASSA has stooped! So sorry Tiramisu, HF, GG for you. They clearly see PCC as a threat - BASSA/Unite members go over to PCC = Loss of money the greedy Unite people get!

I am equally horrified with the ''naming and shaming'' of the pilots/TRMs who have volunteered. These guys have volunteered through their own decision. Sure, I can see why people don't like it. As I can see both sides of the coin, HOWEVER it was their decision as they are worried about their own jobs. To now be outed, in my opinion, is disgraceful. OK, so some will say they knew what they were going into before they done it - yes that is true but they obviously volunteered for the reasons mentioned they are worried about their jobs. Not necassarily because they want to ''break CC T&Cs'' but they, personally don't feel a strike is justified, worth losing our and their jobs over or whatever. They may think they are protecting our T&Cs. I have been so confused on the situation of late so I can see both sides of the coin however naming and shaming is disgusting.

Now I am worried if there is a strike there will be a similar text going around as to who (full cabin crew) came into work. Because, by hook or by crook, some evil, malicious so and so will get the info (mates from scheduling etc etc) and quite frankly I will not want to come to work again if my name was published. Am actually very scared :(

But I'm going to stay positive (or try to at least!)

[winstonsmith]

At least UNITE is using our membership fees to something - because I doubt Mark Everard took it out of his own pocket.

It would have been nice if they had spent it on something else - but go ahead. You are digging your own grave even deeper! The sooner you are out of the company - the better.

[TFlexMax80]

I normally sit at the front windows of the jet. I volunteered. I have finished the 3 days of training. My name may now be on a list.

Does this bother me? No.

Would I do the same again given the choice? Absolutely.

[SlideBustle]

It takes 3 days ONLY FOR PILOTS. They are already trained in many areas of SEP so therefore in many areas they only have to be current in it. The 3 days I assume just covers the cabin crew specific only areas of SEP. Not sure what it is exactly.

Ground staff who have volunteered as cabin crew who have never worked as crew before have to have a 20 days course which is pretty much all of SEP/AVMED/Security. I think certain non-mandatory elements may be cut out like manual handling etc and of course customer service which means it is not the normal 6 weeks course.

[AtlasDrawer]

Bassa website now up and running normally. No mention of the false website for the PCC or its contents.

I honestly hope that BA is going to start cracking down on these people because all 'naming and shaming' of pilots etc is getting out of hand. Just a look on the BASSA forum really worries me, BA is turning into a horrible place to work at the moment.

AD

[24-06]

How come there's a list of BA permanent cabin crew? Where's that come from?

[24-06]

Sorry to hear about that Oranguzee. I'm going to be careful what I say at work unless I can be 100% sure of the other party's views. Best just to observe other forums at the moment if you can bear it. I guess it will get worse before it gets better, which is why I say we must ignore all provocation on here too!

Does anyone know about PCCC website hits / emails of support as that might provide some reassurance?

[24-06]

Winston Smith - do you think they might be able to mount a picket line in the tube station?

[DP.]

do you think they might be able to mount a picket line in the tube station?

I'd be surprised if TfL would allow that.

[kappa]

Nutjob posted:
So, having a secure job (until BASSA began it's farcical campaign), being paid above industry average and being asked to work a little harder during the largest recession on record doesn't seem that bad to me - all considered……. La La Land it is for so many of you! On point! Recall that the Daily Mail reports (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1236471/The-BA-comrade-California--50-000-year-union-activist-lives-LA-flown-year.html) the BASSA “chairman” [sic-since her name and picture indicate she is a obviously not a male] has a second home in LA, a city on what many call the ‘left coast’ of the U.S. - and refer to as ‘La La Land’.

[etrang]

Would the real Mark Everard have been so stupid as to register the fake PCC web site in his own name? It seems unlikely, but since it will be easy to verify i suggest we wait until it is confirmed one way or another.

[The Real Slim Shady]

Purely from the customer's perception, as we will be the collateral damage if a strike goes ahead, may I have your opinions on what you believe may happen given these possible outcomes?


BASSA win the Court Case
BA wins the Court Case
BASSA organise another ballot and the timeframe thereof
BA unilaterally introduces changes to crew complements


I'm not pre-judging the outcome or taking sides or sh1t stirring, merely enquiring, as a ticket holder, from the insiders their opinions on how things could pan out from a variety of outcomes.

[StoneyBridge Radar]

Poor Mark, engaging keyboard fingers before brain. How will he manage to run his second business with a probable disciplinary hearing, HMRC investigation and, no doubt, weekly trips to Job Centre Plus?

This latest abhorrent action plunges the BASSA oligarchs to a new level of disgusting desperation.

It is a sad reflection of BASSA itself; infantile, crude and ignorant.

With every twist, every turn, BASSA sink even more irretrievably into extinction.

Cabin Crew deserve so much better.

http://i872.photobucket.com/albums/ab283/BASSA_Hater/BackingB.jpg

[Basil]

the Daily Mail reports the BASSA “chairman” [sic-since her name and picture indicate she is a obviously not a male]

kappa, please don't take this as finger-wagging teaching; it's just one of my little hang-ups that I think 'chairman' is appropriate for both (or any other) sexes :ok:

wubnig (http://www.safs.ca/sept2004/wubnig.html)

In English, the word 'man' appeared as parts of two words in about the eighth century: 'wereman' meant the male of the species and 'wifman' meant the female. By the twelfth century, 'wereman' had been contracted to 'man' and meant both the species and the male of the species, to be understood by context. (Again, see the OED.) This is clear in the King James translation of the Bible: "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them." (Genesis I, 27)

[Clarified]

History is littered with examples of what things used to be like, I hear it now. 'Wasn't like this in the 60's', 'kids of today', 'things used to be so nice round here'. Some of these things we can control, others we can't.

I have to admit, I have certain empathy with your post #47, I too remember those times, although I do not agree with all of the goings on you mentioned!
I started flying in the 1980's, things were very different.
It's called change!!!
It doesn't mean you have to stop enjoying what you do or become despondent, it does mean that if you want to stay in the loop, be involved, have a stake, take responsibilty for yourself, you need to look at it and see what benefits you can take from the altered situation.

Closer to home, events of the last 12 months, have been in direct response to a changing airline world. Yes, previous to that there were plans to see how we could be leaner as a company, not just cabin crew, all departments and a lot of those changes have been made.
I do not believe they have been done to destroy people or their working arrrangements, indeed quite the contrary; they have been put in place to ensure all of our futures.

In my view your 'one man' reference highlights exactly what I am talking about.
No, it's not about 'one man'. It is about 40000+ men and women. That 'one man' has a responsibilty to all of them, some of which are legally binding.
Some people lay the blame for our current debacle firmly at his door, there are examples on this forum. History will judge whether that was really fair and just. Looking around, my personal view is that it isn't fair or just.
My view is that the whole of this was and still is avoidable, I think the company have been up front about what is needed and offered an inclusive approach. It doesn't want to shaft anyone, it does want to survive and has a responsibilty to do just that.
Many people in our company, including fellow cabin crew I work with understand and agree. (This forum has loads of examples).
Our company is a progressive and attractive employer, our 'newbies' will enjoy working here wherever they are employed.
It is not a sweatshop or some corporate monster hellbent on destroying its employees.
In your final paragraph you refer to the future and what it may hold.
The way to avoid scenarios like that is to engage, influence and mold the future with the company.
A positive, pragmatic approach that balances all needs is the key to our future success, anyone else up for that?
In it to win it and all that, I think anything else is doomed to failure.

My views in response to a previous post, they do not represent my employer or anyone else.

[wascrew]

Aah nostalgia isn`t what it used to be!!

[spin_doctor]

As an ex BA Employee of 11 years (Crew for 3 1/2) it really saddens me to see how one man has managed to cause so much anger, mis-trust and animosity between a group of operational teams, that 3 years ago, worked together, helped and supported each other and made the day go with a smile, when you popped a few sherries into a bag if you recognised a colleague off the ground, or offered a more comfortable seat, or even a few left over breakfasts and coffee supplies for the engineers crew room

Willie Walsh has come to BA to do one thing, break the unions, and he will. As a supporter of BASSA during the 97 strike at yes voter during the 07 ballot, Bassa’s downfall will be not given an inch when they could (introducing fixed links etc) now BA wants the mile.

Sorry, I disagree entirely. The current situation is not as a result of one man hell bent on destroying the lives of BA employees, its a result of years of poor management in BA failing to do what needed to be done.

For as long as I can remember our cabin crew have been told 'you are the best in the world', 'you deserve everything you have' and 'you are what our customers fly BA for'. Tell them enough and they start to believe it.

Successive CEO's have made noises about aligning crew terms and conditions with market rates (+10% or whatever), but have never had the guts to actually follow through. Finally someone is doing what should have been done gradually over the last decade.

[Snas]

Source: - http://www.ttglive.com/c/portal/layout?p_l_id=3208370&CMPI_SHARED_articleId=3662676&CMPI_SHARED_ImageArticleId=3662676&CMPI_SHARED_articleIdRelated=3662676&CMPI_SHARED_ToolsArticleId=3662676&CMPI_SHARED_CommentArticleId=3662676&articleTitle=BA%3A (http://www.ttglive.com/c/portal/layout?p_l_id=3208370&CMPI_SHARED_articleId=3662676&CMPI_SHARED_ImageArticleId=3662676&CMPI_SHARED_articleIdRelated=3662676&CMPI_SHARED_ToolsArticleId=3662676&CMPI_SHARED_CommentArticleId=3662676&articleTitle=BA%3A)


Flight Centre managing director Chris Galanty said: “We are not switch-selling but some customers specifically request they do not travel with BA, and we have to go with the customer.”

Long-standing BA critic Clive Green, of Clive Green Travel, said his premium customers were now asking not to travel with the airline because strike fears were outweighing their desire to keep frequent flyer points.


So much damage being caused to present and long term custom and if it's not lost it's sold at a discount.

Source: - (business flights sold cheaper than economy (http://www.businesstraveller.com/news/ba-sells-business-cheaper-than-economy))

[BlueUpGood]

BASSA win the Court Case: BA have given voluntary retirement and part time working already, so there is nobody to restore the previously removed crew members. BA recruit on new contracts (NEW FLEET). BA WIN


BA wins the Court Case: BA can maintain the new crewing levels and continue making the necessary savings to keep BA afloat. BA WINS


BASSA organise another ballot and the timeframe thereof: BASSA are doing that right now, and have provoked BA AND MANY OF IT'S EMPLOYEES into taking strike busting measures. There will be no stomach for BASSA, let alone yet another ballot IMHO BA WIN


BA unilaterally introduces changes to crew complements: BA already have. BA WINS

[Snas]

....Unite will have to cut costs further to offset the loss of membership and revenue as a consequence of the recession and to meet its pension obligations.....


I quite like that line above taken from the "Report of the joint general secretaries (http://www.unitetheunion.com/about_us/summary_of_financial_informati.aspx)", year ended 2008.

Exchange "membership" for "passengers" and that could have been a BA quote could it not?

Source: - http://www.unitetheunion.com/about_us/summary_of_financial_informati.aspx (http://www.unitetheunion.com/about_us/summary_of_financial_informati.aspx)

[Diplome]

Snas:

Good point.

Somehow I don't feel that Unite is feeling all warm and cuddly over the conduct of BASSA.

The smearing of the PCCC and BA using pornography must be making Unite cringe.

Though, looking at in from another point of view, it does mean a potential revenue stream for certain BASSA members. Should we expect to see the next raising of the flag photo to be issued sans clothing? :)

[TorC]

The smearing of the PCCC and BA using pornography must be making Unite cringe.

I see that the PCCC now has a few images on its website .... somewhat more tasteful, and relevant to the debate, than those that have been used by others elsewhere.

Professional Cabin Crew Council - Image Gallery (http://www.professionalcrewcouncil.com/page6.php?view=thumbnailList&category=0)

[From Tunbridge Wells]

Re Dodgy websites etc - I understand that someone started asking awkward questions on the Crew Forum asking if anyone knew anything about this and that post has now disappeared. Seems that no-one dares question the union. Hardly unbiased and encouraging of free speech:=

[Bassa2010]

Would the return of pre-november crew complements mean the strike threat was removed or do bassa also want a guarantee of no nufleet?

It fact what do bassa want in order to settle?

[Human Factor]

As far as anyone knows (BASSA have been suitably vague - witness the question on the ballot paper), removal of the "imposition of new crewing levels" would stop the ballot.

I would suggest that BASSA would like "New Fleet" to be taken off the table (fat chance now, I reckon) but they can't make it a condition of calling off the strike because it hasn't happened yet and you can't strike about something which "may" happen in the future (ok, we all know it's going to happen but until the first person is recruited to "New Fleet", BASSA can't do anything about it. It would also require a new ballot at that point).

Edit: BASSA2010, love the location by the way. If only the real LA resident had half a clue.... :oh:

[BlueUpGood]

Good question, one that couldn't be answered by BASSA stalwarts on the previous thread.. the ballot paper is non specific. Does anyone know?

Of course, BASSA would deny it's about their perceived right to dictate how BA runs it's own business:confused: They want the right to be consulted on everything, but if they don't like it (ie, everything) they throw their toys out when BA get on with running a business which is seriously in trouble. :ugh:

[BentleyH]

I heard on good authority yesterday from individuals present in court that the judge has already made it very clear to BASSA's counsel, that he is barking up the wrong tree.
Unless he can produce a completely different argument to the ones currently being used, BASSA will lose their application and be subject to court costs.

No real surprise!
3 defeats on the bounce with yet more to come!

I also gather they have yet again sent multiple ballot papers to some individuals along with papers to former employees and former members!

Perhaps Mark Everard should have spent more time working on their data base rather than surfing the internet!

I've also just been rostered for my SCCM training day having completed the normal 3-day course yesterday. Apparently there are 5 courses planned with ten of us on each course. I gather around 700 pilots have now volunteered in total.

Shame its come to this, but I really want to see this through now so that the cancer that is BASSA can be permanently removed from this great company. I don't want any innocent people to get caught in the fall-out, but I fear some of those still blind to the BASSA rhetoric but not that militant will get caught up in this and will lose their jobs.
Best way to protect against that of course is to turn up to work with the rest of us when the strike is called, so we can keep as many of our loyal customers flying as possible.

From what I have seen in Cranebank this week, there will be a brilliant atmosphere on board woth lots of 'can do' spirit rather than constant referal to outdated rule books which actually prevent us doing the right thing for our customers.

Here's hoping the current pain is worth it for the long term gain.

[binsleepen]

Afternoon all,

A question if I may? Is any unionised group of workers allowed to withdraw their labour on the receipt of a majority in favour of striking no matter what the reason or question on the ballot paper? It seems that with such a vaguely worded question on the BASSA ballot paper that there is no specific issue for BA to address.

P.S. Did anyone see the posts this morning by a "Lurker 2010" that have now disappeared. Wonder if they are a relation of our old friend "A Lurker".

[617sqn]

Just wondering what the reason is that the volunteer crew are going to be in charge over the regular crew?

[Diplome]

617sqn:

Just wondering what the reason is that the volunteer crew are going to be in charge over the regular crew?


Do you have a reliable source for this assertion?

[dave747436]

I understand BASSA are desperate for knowledge of numbers of volunteers...
Would it be worth deleting the number of pilots who've volunteered that you quote, above?
I'd hate them to use anything they read here as ammunition to foster hate between pilots & CC...
ATB.

[617sqn]

Have a read of post 84.
Bentley H mentions sccm training.
I am assuming he/she is a pilot

[moo]

I am being updated from a source in court. It is not going well for the BASSA team....

[BentleyH]

As you say, all will be revealed in due course. I do however know my source personally so I'm comfortable it's accurate.

With regard to numbers, BASSA are praying that the number of volunteers is low. This is obviously part of their bullying tactics towards pilots in the hope some might decide against it as a result. BA are quite rightly keeping their cards close to their chests but bearing in mind there has been a very strong response to the request for volunteers, I think its important BASSA are aware of the strength of feeling against them and their outdated tactics. More importantly, crew still planning on striking need to know they'll be standing on a picket line or watching on Sky News as a steady stream of British Airways aircraft take-off from Heathrow.

Volunteers with previous crew experience are being rostered as SCCMs because it alows BA to have some assurity they can operate these services without relying on CSDs and Pursers working. Those CSDs and Pursers already telling BA they will work during a strike are of course also being rostered to work during the planned strike period. BA does need to have nominated SCCMs on passenger services and it can't use existing main crew to fulfill this on a planned basis. I assume it also doesn't want to put added pressure on main crew already working in difficult circumstances, whereas we are old enough and ugly enough to look after ourselves!

[617sqn]

BentlyH
thank you for your rapid,informative reply.That does make sense.I was wondering the same.






Don't want to be spreading scurrilous,unsubstantiated,inflammatory rumours do we?:ugh:

[Caribbean Boy]

Just wondering what the reason is that the volunteer crew are going to be in charge over the regular crew?Volunteer crew won't have seniority over regular crew although some will have had the extra SCCM training. The plan is that they will work with, but not be in charge of, regular crew. So, even a pilot with 30 years' service might be junior to the purser and find himself serving food and drink at the back of the bus.

[TruBlu123]

I'm sure tha majority of us on this thread are praying for an outcome in BA's favour. However, let's not get ahead of ourselves in predicting the result. The law can be fickle and judges capricious when handing down judgements. Keep our fingers crossed and be patient. The company has a very robust case to present to the court.

[Caribbean Boy]

With regard to numbers, BASSA are praying that the number of volunteers is low.BA has said that thousands have volunteered. I've heard that it's between 2,000-3,000. The actual figure will most likely be revealed at a time of BA's choosing (when BA can point out that there is no shortage of strikebreakers).

[Human Factor]

The law can be fickle and judges capricious when handing down judgements.

... and if the judgement doesn't go BASSA's way, bent again. :rolleyes:

[BentleyH]

Caribbean Boy,

I'm afraid you are mistaken. The pilots completing the course will be the SCCM. We are being entered into TRACIE (the cabin crew rostering system) and will be rostered in exactly the same way as current SCCM. This will include conducting the briefing, sitting at 1L, taking any NITS briefings, allocating working positions etc etc. We will also continue to operate as SCCMs until the operation is fully back on it's feet.
I can speak from authority because I have the course notes for my course and have spoken at length this morning with Flight Ops about it.

For info, there is no hot food planned in the service. I'm assuming customers will get vouchers in the same way we did during the Gate Gourmet dispute (oh, yes another great example of Unite (formerly the T&G) in action!)

I agree its prudent not to count one's chickens....etc which is why I worded the update on the court case the way I did. One thing is for sure however, its not going very well for Unite so far.

Tirimasu - Well done on your work to date. We flew a couple of months ago and to be honest, it was a breath of fresh air to hear you understanding the issues and being very honest and clear with the crew. Keep it up and good luck!

[BentleyH]

Maybe this judge is thinking of taking a flight with BA during the rest of his life.....if so, he must be bent!

[License to Fly]

So lets work this out - during a potential strike, BA will have access to :-

-c.2000-3000 volunteers:D
-majority of gatwick crew (who gain little from this strike) - 3,000?
-CC who have left BA & being invited back from their previous short term 12 month contracts
-(1000/2000 ?) CC who are not members of the union
-cabin crew that decide they are not striking:ok:
TOTAL 7,000-10,000 perhaps ?

With a cabin crew number of c.13,000 (many of those are part time (anyone know what % are?/others must be taking unpaid leave), does the above number of people not enable BA to run a good operation ?

They can even use the oneworld partners on certain routes to take customers/put on bigger planes, enabling BA to cancel those flights ... high frequency routes can have certain flights cancelled, whilst customers are still accommodated ..... planes can be operated with legal minimum crew rather than the number BA put on ... there are so so many options - I wonder how many of the YES voters have thought about this

Nobody knows what could happen, but it has the potential for many CC to lose their jobs, which no one wants as there are some great people in BA and that would be a real shame (& where do you get a new well paid job in this recession?)

Whatever the CC believe, Mr Walsh will not back down and you must remember its him that pays their wage each month, not BASSA

LTF

[tomkins]

LTF
I think you`re figures are a little optimistic.For a start I believe that there are approx.1300 c/c at lgw not 3000 and being one of them I know that a fair few have the intention of striking.
You seem to have picked numbers and figures out of thin air ,even the vol.figures have not been confirmed.
I think 7000 to 10000 heads being available to work is wishful thinking.

[617sqn]

Not sure of the legalities of getting ex employees back to strike break.

Can any one clarify that?

None of the crew that took VR that I know have been asked back.

[Snas]

I would agree that LFT's figures are probably no more then educated guesses err'ing on the BA win side of things, however, if the proportion of strike supporters on this forum (there used to be a fair few remember) are anything close to an indication of support within the company perhaps the number that actually strike will be rather low.

[Human Factor]

My guess is 5000+ crew available on strike day one, made up of non-strikers, volunteers, etc. Plenty to crew a large portion of the operation. It'll be awfully lonely on that picket line watching the fleet get airborne.

[Sunshine Express]

tomkins

Could you explain what the LGW crew think that they may gain by striking?

This is a genuine question, not a dig at you or the crew.

[Caribbean Boy]

So lets work this out - during a potential strike, BA will have access to :-

-c.2000-3000 volunteers:D
-majority of gatwick crew (who gain little from this strike) - 3,000?
-CC who have left BA & being invited back from their previous short term 12 month contracts
-(1000/2000 ?) CC who are not members of the union
-cabin crew that decide they are not strikinghttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif
TOTAL 7,000-10,000 perhaps ?Suppose that there is a 70% turnout and that 70% of crew vote for a strike, ie about half of Unite's membership. If all who voted for a strike did strike and all who didn't continued to work, there would be roughly 7,500 working. If you add some hundreds of volunteer crew (the SEP trainers cannot just hugely increase the numbers they train) plus the following:

- some "air volunteers" in the cabin to hand out bottles of water and towels, clear rubbish, etc
- wet-lease of aircraft, so no need for any BA crew
- as you said, putting on bigger aircraft on some routes

In short, I would expect a majority of BA flights to operate. OK, pax won't always get a meal service but, if informed in advance, they can always bring their own food and drink on board.

Nobody knows what could happen, but it has the potential for many CC to lose their jobsIf the dispute (maybe involving multiple strikes) drags on for 12 weeks, BA might feel it necessary to serve a 90-day SOSR on cabin crew, offering them the new contract. Those who don't sign the new contract would be sacked.

[BentleyH]

All,

Don't forget, we are only being trained to operate 777s and Airbus aircraft.
If we are able to fly all of these aircraft, it will represent about 60% of our normal flying. I know for a fact we won't be flying domestics for example and all the 75/76 and 747-400 fleets will be grounded initially.

Hopefully, we might be able to operate most of the Airbus and 777s but that will of course be dependent on how many normal crew come to work.

[tomkins]

Sunshine Express;
havn't got a clue.You had better ask THEM.

[Clarified]

Caribbean Boy,

I'm afraid you are mistaken. The pilots completing the course will be the SCCM. We are being entered into TRACIE (the cabin crew rostering system) and will be rostered in exactly the same way as current SCCM. This will include conducting the briefing, sitting at 1L, taking any NITS briefings, allocating working positions etc etc. We will also continue to operate as SCCMs until the operation is fully back on it's feet.
Hello Bentley,


I don't want to get drawn into your SCCM debate, however one thing I really like about this forum is its objectivity.
Therefore, if you fly can I draw your attention to JPM's and the SCCM role.
One years operating experience as cabin crew and the appropriate promotion course.
In unforseen circumastances one years experience is still required.

[Matt101]

Hey Clarified,

I am playing devils advocate a lot, but Bentley did say it was only those with previous crewing experience that had been brought along to the SCCM course. We know at LGW for example that some pursers were promoted based on their previous crew experience at another airline (6 months gained internally and 6 months in a prior role). It would be interesting to see the CAA regs on experience and recency thereof if anyone can find it?

[617sqn]

My thoughts about the reason behind this is what Bently explained.
I can see that it is better for BA to have volunteers as sccm as they know they will turn up and can plan ahead.
I can forsee a problem for some crew with this though.
Those that have not got promotion may not relish the idea of a volunteer being in charge.
If this is not handled correctly it could go horribly wrong.
The volunteer pilots will be trained as CSDs

[tomkins]

Can't quite get my head round this idea that the the flight crew volunteers are to be the sccms.Surely BA must have a good idea of non striking crew who would be far more qualified to do the job.

[malcolmf]

The volunteers who are training as CSD have one years experience as CC, not necessarily recently.
This raises the interesting scenario of a volunteer CSD FO with some senior Captain as crew:)

[617sqn]

Another interesting scenario:
A n ex crew member who only did 1 or 2 years and then got a ground job.They are now a volunteer CSD overseeing crew who have done 20 years.

I know these are difficult circumstances in difficult times but it is better to discuss it here so we can have sensible answers when faced with this on board.

[Clarified]

Apologies,
just read post 90, thanks for the heads up.

C

[petdemouche]

Hey Bentley, how sure are you about the fact that the 747s will be grounded ?
That means that many highly loaded routes like HKG etc will be cancelled ?
I can't really believe that...

Any other opinions on that ?

[earleyboy]

Wet lease aircraft maybe

[midman]

I thnk the point to remember is that if it comes to the crunch and we are all sitting in the briefing room with an FO CSD, main crew comprising normal cc, captains, engineers, mNagers etc, it's not going to be like your usual trip.

All volunteers will need support from regular crewmembers, 'seniority' will not come into allocating working positions; the priority will be to gain the best spread of experience round the aircraft (no "but i always work in club"!), and if I am the operating captain on such a flight I will be in the briefing liaising with whoever the csd is to achieve that spread. Remember that is part of the captain's reponsibility.

We will be workng to scheme, min rest, being flexible, reactive and 'can do' not looking at our agreements to see if it's approved by Bassa.

We will all be helping each other out at evey stage, not worrying about relative seniority.

[anything]

For the company to plan the operation they do need SCCM's who have cc experience. Existing crew cannot be used for this purpose as they may go on strike. I would be happy for any flight crew member to be a SCCM because they have the necessary leadership, communication skills and operational knowledge necessary for the role.

And if I can say, slightly tongue in cheek, it is technically a temporary demotion for them.

Anyway back to where the debate should be and that is to try and work out if there is any way BASSA can dig itself out of this huge hole.

[midman]

If BA think they have enough crew, volunteers or otherwise, the 744s will be pressed into action pretty sharpish I would think ( remember MBTs will be out of the window so the schedule will be flyable with less than the usual numbers).

As for experienced main crew working under a pilot sccm, it may be awkward but BA have to be sure that they have a supply of sccms available on the day. They can't train all main crew on the one day course in the hope that a few won't strike, they have to use the volunteers they know will turn up.

As for crew having difficulties with that situation, as I posted above, the idea is that the can do attitude will prevail, not one where people look for reasons why something shouldn't happen.
Perhaps this may well reflect the new approach in IFCE once this sorry mess is all over.

[wascrew]

What exactly was the wording on the strike ballot form?
Will it make a difference to the validity of the ballot if BASSA lose the court case?

MOO any update from your mole in the court house?

[TorC]

.... the idea is that the can do attitude will prevail, not one where people look for reasons why something shouldn't happen.
Perhaps this may well reflect the new approach in IFCE once this sorry mess is all over.

We can but hope.

I'm often being told by fellow crew that I "didn't have to do that". My reply: "This job isn't about what I HAVE to do, it's about what I CAN do".

[52049er]

As mentioned - lets be realistic. The junior FO with a years experience as CC elsewhere is NOT going to be turning up and demanding people do it his way. As with all good leaders, he will use whatever experience exists among his team to get the best result on the day.

If he has a senior skipper working as part of that team - well, good. All BA's skippers are well versed in listening to even the most junior co-pilot's thoughts...he may have 20 years in the mil, or have previously been based at their destination.

As for the Senior CC - well they have always been junior to even the newest FO. BA's FOs don't use that position now to throw their weight around, and they'd be muppets not to listen to any advice given them on board.

If service standards slip, which they may :) , I'm sure our MVP's will be showered with Air Miles like sweeties.

Anyway, as now, the operating Captain is in charge in any case, so no change there. We're not going into this shouting about how easy the CC role is, we are going into it, reluctantly, to keep this company - all our futures - going.

Mind you, it has the potential to be a right laugh.

[TorC]

You can view the ballot form here:

Professional Cabin Crew Council - Image Gallery (http://www.professionalcrewcouncil.com/page6.php?view=preview&image=4&category=0)

[617sqn]

Thank you all for your answers.
Some great thoughts came back.I have taken them all on board(no pun intended!)
At least when this is raised by cc and they have negative thoughts I can explain the reasons behind it and how it will work(because it will have to!)

It's good to talk.

[Dairyground]

So lets work this out - during a potential strike, BA will have access to :-

-c.2000-3000 volunteers:D
-majority of gatwick crew (who gain little from this strike) - 3,000?
-CC who have left BA & being invited back from their previous short term 12 month contracts
-(1000/2000 ?) CC who are not members of the union
-cabin crew that decide they are not strikinghttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif
TOTAL 7,000-10,000 perhaps ?



The numbers quoted above may be optimistic, but they may also not be fully relevant.

How many CC are used for a typical day's flights from Heathrow and Gatwick? If something approaching that number can be found, we could see BA operating something like a full programme from early on the first day of a strike, and possibly for a few days after that. Judicious rostering for the days before an expected strike could see many of those expected to work being fully rested and having plenty of available hours. The full programme would probably not be sustainable, but could last long enough to see support for the strike fading and a gradual return to work.

WW might, of course, want to play it differently, and aim to start with a minimal programme and gradually build up towards normality.

[Ten West]

Whoa! Steady on there friend!

I read that as a tongue-in-cheek statement in relation to the fact that whenever anything doesn't go BASSA's way it's deemed to be because the organization concerned is corrupt and in the pay of "The evil Willie". Even companies of the calibre of Price Waterhouse Cooper have been accused of "Having it in for crew" and being "WW's puppets" in the past.

Have you read any of the previous incarnations of this thread out of interest? If you haven't, it's worth a look as it's most enlightening. :ok:

[Jetlegs]

RR do try to keep up please; and stop taking yourself so terribly serious.

Irony; ever heard of it? :ugh:

[Juan Tugoh]

Irony - its like Goldy only with more iron:}

[flybymerchant]

How many CC are used for a typical day's flights from Heathrow and Gatwick? If something approaching that number can be found, we could see BA operating something like a full programme from early on the first day of a strike, and possibly for a few days after that. Judicious rostering for the days before an expected strike could see many of those expected to work being fully rested and having plenty of available hours. The full programme would probably not be sustainable, but could last long enough to see support for the strike fading and a gradual return to work.

At 00.01am on the first day of the strike, most of BA's 223 aircraft will have spent the night out of the UK, and will hence operate back with a fully legal complement of crew plus about 20% (even if all intend to strike as soon as they get on UK soil) so the first day will surely be the easiest. This is one of many reasons why Willy Walsh has most to gain from breaking the strike on day 1.

This is also why, right from the start, he will do exactly what the Board, the Shareholders, all other BA employees and the travelling/paying Public REQUIRE him to do to protect their investments/careers/families....i.e. position the company that he is paid to MANAGE back towards profitability by playing Hardball....The gloves will truly be off....

-no more warning BASSA of the illegality of their ballots BEFORE the court case

-this time Cabin Crew will be sacked

-staff travel will be permanently removed, as threatened

-new contracts will be issued with no discussion required (by law),

-all non-strikers MAY (if he's feeling like it) be allowed to keep their current pay protected (as a loyalty reward) and possibly their staff travel

-However, all STRIKERS will have to fully re-apply for their jobs on the New Fleet New Contract....no longer market rate plus 10%, that which was offered and pompously rejected as being beneath a befitting stature, it could well be simply at market rate.....

.........Heckfire Hootenany! In todays trading conditions and rising unemployment, particularly amongst skilled cabin crew with current licenses and UK security checks who don't like the look of the reality they're faced with down the Jobcentre Plus, market rate MINUS 10% would be gobbled up just as quickly.

If Mr W.Walsh does indeed turn out to be the devil incarnate with which BASSA likes so much to scare the children into submission, do you not think he could eat your contracts for breakfast, feast on your terms and conditions for lunch and dine-a-plenty on every other aspect of your job that the laws of Supply and Demand can unquestioningly PROVE to be significantly ABOVE market rate and market requirements?!

Scary? Sure........Possible? Indubitably my dear Watson! Likely?......hmmmmmm.........Would you bet YOUR, and (maybe less importantly but still worth a Karma check) MY career/livelihood on it?

My family are understandably worried that you would....



You also wrote....
WW might, of course, want to play it differently, and aim to start with a minimal programme and gradually build up towards normality.

Disagree old chap, Willie will come out all guns blazing....after all....what's he got to lose? ...(single 'o' but still 'double jeopardy')

After all of BASSA's inappropriate and offensive war analogies/comparisons, maybe ARMAGEDDON is all they'll understand.

[LD12986]

RichmondRoad - There were rumours that the High Court judge that granted the injunction to block the strike over Christmas was to fly on BA over the Christmas period, which led to this statement being issued, hence the jokes about BASSA blaming anyone but itself when things don't go as planned:

Media Releases: Mrs Justice Cox - British Airways Plc –v– Unite the Union (http://www.judiciary.gov.uk/publications_media/media_releases/2010/0310.htm)

[LD12986]

BA in graffiti wall "bullying" row:

BBC News - BA in graffiti wall 'bullying' row (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8498932.stm)

[Snas]

I have not found a second source reporting this yet, but: - We’re not miles apart,” said Steve Turner

FT.com / UK / Business - Union ?not miles apart? from BA (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/e27d4d9a-11c5-11df-b6e3-00144feab49a.html)

[BentleyH]

Crew complements


Guys,

I agree entirely with the general concensus here that this will be a real team game. BA needs to comply with CAA requirements, hence the agreement with them to use pilots with crew experience as SCCMs providing they do the one-day course. Outside of meeting those requirements however, the name of the game will be harnessing all the knowledge and experience we'll have on board from our different backgrounds (pilots/cabin crew/engineers/groundstaff/waterside staff etc).

I really think there will be a brilliant team spirit and can-do attitude on board should it come to it. The passengers will be very grateful and respectful of what we are doing.

Rather than trying to manouvre around ancient agreements which add ridiculous complexity to our operation, there will be an enabled environment where everyone is trying to do the best thing for our customers and our business. Lets hope some of it rubs off for the longer term.
(I do not question the integrity of our cabin crew colleagues or work ethics in the sentence above, just the outdated practices maintained by their out of date union).

On the fleet front, I gather the plan is to fly just the 777 and Airbus. There is no way they will plan to fly more than 50% of the programme on day one, so it seems sensible to keep it simple by just flying two large fleets initially. Perhaps this will change as more crew come to work although by then, I think the strike will have folded. Whilst the strike may only last a few days, volunteers can expect to remain as crew for longer, especially if the strikers have all been fired.

[Snas]

Somewhat rich considering that their members are sending text's with private details all over the place at the moment...!

Unite asks regulator to investigate `serious misuse' of British Airways employees' private information (http://www.unitetheunion.com/news__events/latest_news/unite_asks_regulator_to_invest.aspx?lang=en-gb)

Also, I dont recall reading anything in the Daily Mail that I could not get from public records anway? Certainly the likes of The Mail dont need to rely on feeds from anyone to get information I would suggest.

I guess we will see, eventually..

[Ten West]

From the same people that advocate "Naming and shaming"??

"Pot to kettle, colour check. Do you copy?" :rolleyes:

[24-06]

“I really think there will be a brilliant team spirit and can-do attitude on board should it come to it. The passengers will be very grateful and respectful of what we are doing.

Rather than trying to manouvre around ancient agreements which add ridiculous complexity to our operation, there will be an enabled environment where everyone is trying to do the best thing for our customers and our business. Lets hope some of it rubs off for the longer term". BentleyH

There seems to be a lot of euphoria around that worries me and I wonder how regular crew who are intending to work during any potential period of IA feel about this. Although I will be working and this is because I have a contract with BA that I do not intend to break, I'm not sure that I will be rejoicing, in other words, I do not see the context and the operating flights that will result being quite the 'party' that some of the posters here see it. What are you views fellow cabin crew?

[Rescue3]

Any idea how long the court case is planned for?.

[LD12986]

Somewhat rich considering that their members are sending text's with private details all over the place at the moment...!

Unite asks regulator to investigate `serious misuse' of British Airways employees' private information (http://www.unitetheunion.com/news__events/latest_news/unite_asks_regulator_to_invest.aspx?lang=en-gb)

Also, I dont recall reading anything in the Daily Mail that I could not get from public records anway? Certainly the likes of The Mail dont need to rely on feeds from anyone to get information I would suggest.

I guess we will see, eventually..


I think Unite need to read the chapter on The Daily Mail in "Flat Earth News" before jumping to conclusions as to how it got the information. The names of the reps are publicly available, and there are all sorts of tricks to get home addresses of people etc.

[spock33]

Due to finish Monday, 8 Feb. Who knows when the result will be decided.

[Litebulbs]

From the BBC -

BBC News - British Airways' £50m loss smaller-than-expected (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8499691.stm)

[MrBunker]

As the loss was smaller than expected due to the mitigating effects of cost-cutting rather than increased yield/revenue I'd say it's neither good nor bad news insofar as it's good not to have lost the £150 million predicted but it's bad because we're only doing it by squeezing all the costs hard. Broadly for Unite/BASSA (who I've no doubt will focus only on the Q3 operating profit and not keep the entire set of figures in proper context) I'd say it's no different to yesterday or the day before that.

MrB

[keel beam]

If ever there was a timely article that could be related to this dispute.

I like this bit:

"Deception is reinforced when hope and conviction overpower evidence and clarity, and bolstered by any system in which the boss is always right. But there is no form of deception more powerful than a willingness to deceive yourself."


Full article here.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/ben_macintyre/article7014065.ece


The sad thing about this dispute is that it is/was avoidable. The only thing left will be a bad taste in the mouth and a number of people without a job.

[Andy_S]

I don't see the union backing down at this late stage
I think you need to differentiate betwen the union and it's membership. The union (BASSA) may indeed be unwilling to back down, but a lot of the movers and shakers in BASSA and their parent union UNITE are full time union officials or BA part timers with independent incomes and union expenses. They have the luxury of being able to strike without having to worry about their next mortgage payment, and a number of them have their own personal political motives to indulge.

The $64,000 dollar question, as you put it, is how resolute are the rank and file? I got the feeling that a lot of CC who voted for industrial action in last years ballot were genuinely shaken when they were told they were to strike for 12 days. That's a lot of salary when you have financial obligations to meet. Faced with significant loss of wages and the permanent withdrawl of staff travel it's going to be interesting to see how many of them actually walk out (assuming another 'yes' vote). Of those who do, how many will have the nerve to see it through to the bitter end if BA can continue to operate a significant number of flights with the help of WW's mini-army of volunteers and the press and general public cheering them on? Whatever BASSA / UNITE may wish, if the 'yes' voters get cold feet then there's not a great deal the union can do about it.

[Snas]

I could not agree with Andy more......

..and for what it is worth (probably very little) I'm going to take a punt on a 72% yes vote.

[HiFlyer14]

Oh this is good for a Friday night laugh down the pub.

Taken from CrewForum - the administrator there "EasyTiger" doing his reporting duties from the court hearing.

But please...a cabin crew witness for Unite to verify how difficult the crew complements are who ......hasn't flown since October!!!! :8

The beers are on me.....!



The barrister made play of Nigel's current ill-health and that he had last flown before the imposition (in October) and so had no experience of it and couldn't comment on the impact crew were feeling on board. Nigel calmly replied that he had 22 years' flying experience and knew intimately the responsibilities attaching to the different grades and positions.


:ok::ok::ok:


I am BA cabin crew and the above represents my own view and not that of BA.

[Snas]

This Nigel and Malone - how many reps are actually on the sick?

Could they not find a "worker" to give evidence?

[AtlasDrawer]

Just like to pick up on something that was spoken about a few pages back. A poster (sorry can't remember whom) asked the question:

'How do main crew feel about the fact that volunteers are being trained to act as SCCMs?'

Surprised, was my initial reaction as I thought that you needed a minimum of one year cabin crew experience to act as an SCCM at any airline. But I don't know for sure what the CAA have said about this, I guess it must be ok or BA would not be doing it, right?

I can see why BA are doing this (getting vols to act as SCCMs) as they have no clear way of finding out exactly how many SCCMs they will have to work during the strike, and as I guess many crew members may vote yes, and be resolute UNTIL the day of the strike comes and eventually decide to come into work.

So , on the day, if I find I have a volunteer acting as a SCCM on a flight I operate, I shall fully support them and help in any way I can.


Any one else like to share their views?

AD

[Thunderbug]

AtlasDrawer

The folks who are doing the extra SCCM training do have the required experience as stipulated by the CAA. They have all been cabin crew at some point in their careers.

And there are surprising quite a few who qualify (and their previous experiences doesn't seem to have put them off volunteering!)

T'Bug :ok:

[AtlasDrawer]

Thanks for the info, did not realise:ok:

AD

[ottergirl]

There seems to be a lot of euphoria around that worries me and I wonder how regular crew who are intending to work during any potential period of IA feel about this. Although I will be working and this is because I have a contract with BA that I do not intend to break, I'm not sure that I will be rejoicing, in other words, I do not see the context and the operating flights that will result being quite the 'party' that some of the posters here see it. What are you views fellow cabin crew?

I'm with you 24-06. I will be working because that is what I have reluctantly chosen having weighed up both sides. It will be with a heavy heart though and will certainly not be a 'party'. Its likely that most crew will be feeling guilty and worried in equal parts.

I also think it is somewhat naive to think that all our customers will be grateful and won't mind not having any catering! Experience tells me that not all the travelling public are that public spirited and we may be in for some horrible days! If it can be my fault that its snowing, foggy, french atc is on strike or that the aeroplane is broken then I'm sure the lack of food could be my fault too! Rational behaviour is not a prerequisite of booking BA!

No cause for rejoicing!

[Litebulbs]

If the court decision is that the imposition is contractual, would you accept that BA have breached the same contract that you will not break?

[LD12986]

I also think it is somewhat naive to think that all our customers will be grateful and won't mind not having any catering! Experience tells me that not all the travelling public are that public spirited and we may be in for some horrible days! If it can be my fault that its snowing, foggy, french atc is on strike or that the aeroplane is broken then I'm sure the lack of food could be my fault too! Rational behaviour is not a prerequisite of booking BA!

I think this will depend in part on how BA manages expectations. UK passengers will be aware of the risk IA and will be relieved that their flight is operating. As long as passengers are given sufficient notice about the lack of hot food and vouchers for the restaurants in the terminal it should not be too bad.

[Ten West]

Ottergirl:

I think I'd just be chuffed that the flight is going at all! Remember the relief when the 12 days of Christmas was scrubbed at the last minute?
The pax will understand the background to the temporary service standards and I think you'll be fine.

Sure, there will be one or two idiots who'll have a gripe and a pop, but you'd get them anyway. With some people, whatever you do will never be good enough.

I reckon it'll go better than you anticipate. :ok:

[AtlasDrawer]

So just a question I'd like to throw out there:

What happens when the strikers are let back to work, and make life pretty unpleasant for us non-strikers/vols?

I hope there is a plan for that too, or someone I can get help from or advice. Because on other forums, indeed one poster on here alluded to it - that there may be some kind of 'comeback' on us who decide to operate. That is the main thing that I think is deterring lots of people. I know of someone who had their car tyres slashed and car scratched and that was back in the 1997 dispute.

Gulp...

AD

[Snas]

I find it amazing that people who believe in the right to strike dont believe in the right not to strike!

[bitsnpieces]

AtlasDrawer,

In an email today from BF, he stated that any form of bullying/harassment will be dealt with quickly and could result in dismissal.

Hope this helps ease your worries.

[AtlasDrawer]

Snas


I find it amazing that people who believe in the right to strike dont believe in the right not to strike!


That's what I believe, it's a free country after all, right?

However, it's the comeback that worries me.

Bitsnpieces:

I have kept a copy of the BF email should I need it for further reference! Thanks..

But I'm still going to go into work, nevertheless, after all, I would be letting the bullies win if I did not and I can't do that.

AD

[Diplome]

Well, this is interesting.

As a SLF who is rather intriuged regarding the issues presented regarding this situtation, but concerned about the extreme negativity being undertaken by some individuals...

I sent off an email to a member of the press the other day regarding the pornographic material placed upon a website with keywords associating itself to BA and PCCCC, ..that the site was registered to a BASSA representative and no denial had been received regarding BASSA's participation, and the name and shame campaign.

An email arrived in by inbox this evening...though I'm in the midst of a terrible bout of the flu. I will try to gather myself tomorrow to respond...but I'm not sure the BASSA = Porn? issue is quite passed

I certainly hope, if there is no denial received, the kitchen remodeling business is good.

[AtlasDrawer]

As a SLF who is rather intriuged regarding the issues presented regarding this situtation, but concerned about the extreme negativity being undertaken by some individuals...

I sent off an email to a member of the press the other day regarding the pornographic material placed upon a website with keywords associating itself to BA and PCCCC, ..that the site was registered to a BASSA representative and no denial had been received regarding BASSA's participation, and the name and shame campaign.




Diplome, this is the crux of the matter I am getting at. Good on you for alerting the press to it. I am really hoping that something is done, and is seen to be done about stuff like this. Fancy having your name in text that is being sent around work - neither do I! What can BA do about these malicious texts that are going around, I have not had one (yet).

I have never been so disappointed in my colleagues in all my life.

AD

[bitsnpieces]

AD,

I am led to believe that there are a lot of investigations going on in the background at the moment. I don't know any details of this, although the police is allegedly involved. I received an email yesterday with a list of volunteers from another department. As and when I see these people, I will let them know and shake their hand as well as saying thank you and well done for volunteering. I will also offer any help I can if they have any questions about anything.

The next few weeks will be difficult unfortunately. I don't tend to talk much about the situation while at work, I just listen. If anyone tried to bully me, I would report it, whether via my manager or the other various ways where we can remain anonymus.

[AtlasDrawer]

Bitsnpieces



I don't tend to talk much about the situation while at work, I just listen. If anyone tried to bully me, I would report it, whether via my manager or the other various ways where we can remain anonymus


And I intend to do the same, guess we have to fight fire with fire!:ok:

AD

[HiFlyer14]

But I'm still going to go into work, nevertheless, after all, I would be letting the bullies win if I did not and I can't do that.



Atlasdrawer - that's the spirit. We simply cannot let them bully us in this way. Our right not to strike, is equal if not greater than their right to strike.

This weeks' events have been quite appalling, even by BASSA standards. A porn site created by a BASSA rep, the naming (there is absolutely no shame involved) of volunteers by text and also a full list posted on CrewForum, a full A4 flyer sent out to their members about PCCC having meetings in Waterside before Christmas. :confused: Now they are using CrewForum to say that PCCC is phoning and harassing people. We do not have phone numbers, and anyone who is on our mailing list will know that we have not phoned them, and will know that this is not true.

The only thing that I can say about all of this, is that they have proved beyond reasonable doubt that they have absolutely no ability to discuss or debate anything. They can't negotiate with BA, so they walk out of meetings. They can't agee with Amicus, so they fight. They can't debate the facts with PCCC so they send out slanderous and libellous flyers. They can't counter the volunteer programme so they name people on text messages. Their depravity knows no bounds, so I agree with Atlas that it is a worry for people who want to work.

But let's be clear. The police will not tolerate this in any shape or form. It will be fairly easy to get to work in T5 - just come in in civvies like a passenger and get changed when you get there. We will all stick together, and there will be safety in numbers.:ok:

With regard to SCCMs being volunteers, I have no problem whatsoever with this. Whoever is in charge on the day gets my respect as they will have been selected for that position, just as much as anyone else who currently does it has. If they are a Captain or FO, then they are always first in the chain of command anyway, so does it really matter which side of the FD door they are operating on? Not for me it doesn't. I am sure they will all have been chosen for their leadership skills, and they will be able to draw on the resources of the crew they are working with to provide an excellent service:).

So it may not be a party. But it will be a breath of fresh air to work alongside like-minded colleagues who want to be there, and are willing to do whatever it takes to keep our company flying. Onwards and upwards, as they say!

I am BA cabin crew and this is my own viewpoint and not that of BA.

[Tiramisu]

5 February 2010



Dear Amicus and BASSA reps at LHR and LGW,

We are writing to you from one cabin crew colleague to another to state quite clearly that we bear no grudges against you. We are exactly who we say we are: cabin crew who want an end to this ongoing Industrial Relations dispute that is causing immense anxiety and stress within our community. We strongly disagree with the need to strike and therefore we are voicing our serious concerns over the drastic and unnecessary actions that Unite have taken, which could ultimately cost us our jobs. In the democratic society in which we live, that is a perfectly acceptable thing to do.

We refer to your flyer sent to members today entitled BA – You are Busted, and we would kindly ask that you refrain from these ridiculous and false allegations that we are management, pilots, or even “misguided cabin crew romanced by BA”. We are not, and the reality is that you know that we are not. At some point, we will stand testament to this fact by revealing our identity: that of cabin crew. If you carry on with these fabricated stories it is going to prove to be a huge embarrassment to Unite when we do.

Additionally we would hope that you would spend your members’ time and money on more productive things than producing an A4 flyer that is complete and utter fabrication. Some of us were in Madrid before Christmas – Madrid in Spain not Waterside.

Our only connection with BA is that, like everybody else, they are our employer. They have asked the cabin crew community to work a bit harder onboard and they have not reduced our pay in any way. We the Professional Cabin Crew Council feel very strongly that they have acted fairly throughout this dispute, and that in the current economic climate, that is not an unreasonable request.

The primary aim of the Professional Cabin Crew Council at this point in time is to save our company, protect our jobs and restore the battered reputation that now tarnishes our community caused by this untenable situation.

The events this week have been entirely distasteful, offensive and completely unprofessional. We trust that you will now draw a line under attacking us and our right to speak out, and that you start to make better use of the funds entrusted to you by your members.

Yours sincerely,

The PCCC Team
www.professionalcrewcouncil.com (http://www.professionalcrewcouncil.com/)
[email protected] ([email protected])

[vanHorck]

Hiflyer,

Respect from a SLF who has nil interest in this matter other than understanding how this battle structure works.

I fail to understand how come the British press has not jumped on top of stories such as the fake website and it's link to Bassa, the texting or posting of lists on the Bassa forum of volunteers. Especially given the fact that reporters are alleged to stroll this forum regularly. Does it mean even the press is divided to the same extreme on both sides of the fence?

The mentality of Bassa is in my opinion of a different era, perhaps seventies or before.

Not just due to the economic crisis, but also from the perspective of the failures of hard capitalism and communism.

Their stance in my view is for short term gain, but the union seems to be able to paint such a scary picture of some vague future that too many voters seems to see no alternative but to vote FOR a strike.

Those people should think back to the Great British Empire and its demise over many decades. This too was, in part, due to the bipolar British class and political system, and the hard attitude of Bassa in my view is an old appendicitis of this.

It seems it is time for a change. Fingers crossed that WW will not settle the dispute and allow Bassa to fight another day. Having come this far, i would be disappointed.

I wish you good luck with your council!

[BentleyH]

Highflyer 14,

That was a great post and I'm with you all the way.
If my earlier posts were interpreted that breaking the strike will be some form of mass celebration, let me correct that. I think its very very sad, that BASSA have failed to represent it's members affectively and have stooped to the levels eloquently outlined by Highflyer.
What I was trying to say was that now we are where we are, despite the fact it will obviously feel daunting for current crew to come to work, they can expect a lot of support from those around them on the day and I do feel the passengers will be very grateful and respectful for what we are doing.
This will certainly be a particular priority of mine should it come to it on the day.

[malcolmf]

I was watching Andrew Marrs History of Britain on BBC2 last night. It was about the seventies and I was struck by the similarities. Hard line Miners, supported by hardline Longbridge workers. Where are they now?

[4468]

AtlasDrawer
What happens when the strikers are let back to work, and make life pretty unpleasant for us non-strikers/vols?

Implicit in your question is a very big assumption. What has led you to believe that strikers will be returning to BA at all?

This is a safety critical environment in which we find ourselves. The behaviour you are worried about cannot possibly be tolerated. I have little doubt that strikers will be sacked. BA is already well advanced in the recruitment of their replacements.

Come mid March, the people you are flying with will not include anyone who struck!

Sadly for some of our colleagues, they are now entering their last 4 weeks of employment with BA.

[Litebulbs]

I mean, £100m error? The factors that they say affected this drop from £150m to £50m should have been foreseen, shouldn't they? I mean, is't that what analysts do?

Another point that somebody posted in Mk V thread. BA have paid in £1.3b into the pension pot over the last three years and if you strip out some items from the announcement, including pension contributions, then an actual operating profit was made.

I know these are just numbers and I am no money man, but it all seems just a bit strange, but I am sure I will be corrected by my learned Prunions.

[Tiramisu]

With regard to SCCMs being volunteers, I have no problem whatsoever with this. Whoever is in charge on the day gets my respect as they will have been selected for that position, just as much as anyone else who currently does it has. If they are a Captain or FO, then they are always first in the chain of command anyway, so does it really matter which side of the FD door they are operating on? Not for me it doesn't. I am sure they will all have been chosen for their leadership skills, and they will be able to draw on the resources of the crew they are working with to provide an excellent servicehttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/smile.gif.

So it may not be a party. But it will be a breath of fresh air to work alongside like-minded colleagues who want to be there, and are willing to do whatever it takes to keep our company flying. Onwards and upwards, as they say!


HiFlyer14,
I could not have put it better.
As a SCCM myself, I completely agree with you.

For cabin crew wishing to come to work in the event of IA like myself, you can now volunteer through 'My Opportunities' on the ESS page of the BA Intranet.

[Currock Base]

Litebulbs,
You can't strip out pension costs and claim BA would make a profit if it didn't meet it's contractual commitment to it's employees. Its the same as saying BA would make £2bn profit a year if it didn't pay anyone wages. You need employees to perform their role to operate an airline. The costs of their services are part of the operating costs before calculating operating profits. It is just the same with fuel costs.

The accountants know what they are doing and they are checked by the external auditors. After that, you have all of the city analysts who represent the larger share holders they plough through the figures as well. There is no conspiracy here.

CB

[HiFlyer14]

Thanks for letting us know about the volunteer list, Tiramisu. I have just logged on, and although I can access all other parts of ESS I cannot get onto My Opportunities; it's just taking too long. No worries, I'll try again later and offer my services for days off, and any other time I may be required.:)

Can we deduce from this though that too many people are logged on, trying to volunteer?:cool: So, SNAS, although yesterday I thought your 72% yes vote was fairly accurate, I'd now like to revise it to about 65%.:ok:

Staff travel, it appears, is quite a perk:p

I am BA cabin crew and this is my own viewpoint and not that of BA.

[Litebulbs]

The way I understood the pensions payment of £1.3b, was that it was overpayments made to remedy the deficits in the two plans. If my understanding is wrong, then thank you for correcting me, but I was only making my assumptions after reading this -

British Airways: BA Reports £50m Loss Amid Falling Passenger Numbers And Strike Threats | Business | Sky News (http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Business/British-Airways-BA-Reports-50m-Loss-Amid-Falling-Passenger-Numbers-And-Strike-Threats/Article/201002115542948?lpos=Business_News_Your_Way_Region_1&lid=NewsYourWay_ARTICLE_15542948_British_Airways%3A_BA_Repor ts_%3F50m_Loss_Amid_Falling_Passenger_Numbers_And_Strike_Thr eats)

[AtlasDrawer]

4468:

Implicit in your question is a very big assumption. What has led you to believe that strikers will be returning to BA at all?



I ask this question because, historically, strikers have always been let back to work eventually. And it seems to be the assumption on Bassa Forum ( and I think CF) that the strikers will return. Although, if memory serves me correctly, the union and BA would have to reach an agreement (and it seems there is no chance of that happening at the moment) before coming back to work .

HiFlyer - so there is list on CrewForum now, why on earth has it not been taken down? I can't help thinking they are all going a bit too far now. But I do not know what to do about it.

Just running through scenarios in my head, I guess.

AD

[legandawing]

Just a quick post, I just read this on the Guardian site and it looks like there could be light at the end of the tunnel.. I do hope it's true

What are you're thoughts?

Walsh upbeat about averting strike as BA posts surprise profit | Business | guardian.co.uk (http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/feb/05/british-airways-record-loss-expected)

[wiggy]

So the Gorniad uses the P word in it's headline and the Mail uses the "L" word, :uhoh: ( mindyou, I wouldn't pay a penny for either)..

British Airways' £50m loss smaller-than-expected | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1248683/British-Airways-50m-loss-smaller-expected.html)

[midman]

The way I understood the pensions payment of £1.3b, was that it was overpayments made to remedy the deficits in the two plans. If my understanding is wrong, then thank you for correcting me, but I was only making my assumptions after reading this -

As far as NAPS is concerned, BA pay £240m per year which basically covers the previous pension deficit and future pension accrual. The balance of the £1.3b probably includes APS deficit payments and BARP contributions and possibly the one off payment made by BA to flying staff pensions to allow for the 10 year change from 55 year to 65 NRD compared to ground staff's 5 year change. (negotiated by Balpa btw for all flight and cabin crew ;) )

So there's £240m/year being paid year on year which comes straight off the bottom line, and that's not going to change. (Ideally for us that would increase but BA have already said they can't afford it).

So, as mentioned above, you can't strip necessary costs like pension contributions out of the profit/loss account and say 'we're profitable if you don't include .....' The only way to reduce losses or make profits is to reduce unnecessary costs.

That's what WW is trying to do now.

[TheKabaka]

The way I understood the pensions payment of £1.3b, was that it was overpayments made to remedy the deficits in the two plans

The figure is £1.8 million, over 2 years. So you are only 1/2 a billion out! In fact this was the largest amount BALPA thought BA could afford allowing for possible downturns in the buisness. In fact this downturn has been so severe BA has been forced to borrow more money (600 million). These loans cost money deducted below the line (ie after the operating costs).

Clearly an operating profit is good. It means we fundamentally have a reasonably good company (cost vs revenue). However just like in your household if your wages cover bills (heating/mortgage/food/going out etc) but not the intrest on loans or taxes then you will eventually go bankrupt (even if like BA you borrowed for a short period in the hope of improvement in income). To extend the metaphor you may even look for ways to cut costs (cheaper suppliers/less staff (cleaner?)/smaller car etc). This is what BA are doing It is not personal. Each dept had a target (it would be unreasonable to save all your cost overspend at home only by buying cheaper groceries, you need to make the savings from all areas). Frankly WW does not care if you are cabin crew/pilot/anything else. Only that his savings are made to put the "house" in order.

BASSAs initial position was no negotiation on perm cost savings, that has left IFCE with a bigger target and imposition. All other areas engaged in the discussion and shaped their cost savings. Why did BASSA not do this?

I have not volunteered yet but every untruth and attack on the people of BA nudges me towards it.

[Litebulbs]

Have a look at this -

http://www.pensionstrategies.co.uk/MungoBlobs/pdfs/October%202009%20The%20FTSE%20350%20and%20their%20pension%20 disclosures.pdf

[RTR]

What is wrong with the reps at BASSA? Their body language speaks volumes for their inability to hold a sensible argument - without resorting to the tactics of past communists, KGB and any number of organisations, long dead who beat and bullied those who would not play by their 'rules.' They have used all the ingredients of past unions who could not get their way.

What is wrong with BASSA? Why cannot it not recognise that it has lost and that their last ditch attempts to retrieve the situation have gone belly up. Time for them to give up a lost angry cause that serves no-ones purpose but their own.

What is it about BASSA that they don't understand what FO means?

Time to go home and get your feet up!

[Litebulbs]

Wow,

They are some strong allegations.

[midman]

Litebulbs

Ref the pensions document, I'm not sure which bit you're emphasising.

The document is very sobering in highlighting the parlous state of pension schemes in the FTSE 350, but also the rate of increase in deficits etc.

[Litebulbs]

The bit on page 7 about money in and money out. I was trying to explain where I got my figures from, that I made in an earlier post, where I said £1.3b. I read my figures in a previous thread, but the link sort of backs it up, give or take the odd £150m, but that sort of error seems to be what analysts work on.

I also read somewhere on Pprune (or another site debating BA), where a comment was made about the deficit as it is commonly known now and what it actually is, due to growth in the world wide economy.

[BAcrewboy]

Glamgirl - I jus volunteered too but am kinda scared that my name will get out there on some kinda list! Are you EF?

[Dawdler]

BASSAA Jumps the gun?

As I understand it, nobody has actually gone on strike yet - ergo no-one yet can properly be called by such names. That description equally cannot be placed at the door of non-Bassa crew either.

The erudition exhibited above surely cannot be the product of a truly qualified cabin crew person, - er...can it?

[TorC]

Glamgirl - I jus volunteered too but am kinda scared that my name will get out there on some kinda list! Are you EF?

The volunteer lists for existing crew will be kept entirely safe, so don't worry about that. Just be careful what you say while at work. Not that any of us should have to hide the fact that we are supporting our employer, but with these loons around, as I say .... just be careful and don't give anything away.

BA will let us know nearer the time all the safety measures that will be in place.

Don't let the loons get you down.

[deeceethree]

Somefolks need to be clear about the consequences of this overt campaign attempting to intimidate people willing to work/volunteer during potential industrial action.

Any reports of people being named or targeted in a similar way are being investigated as a disciplinary offence. Anyone who passes on personal details in an unauthorised manner (i.e. contrary to any company procedures) will be at risk of dismissal. The police are already involved.

All the above is direct from company management. The militant die-hards who perpetrate this nonsense are going to get their collars felt ..... big time! :D

[hval]

Thank you all for your comments,

Believe it or not threats do not worry me in the slightest. I have been threatened by significantly scarier groups of people than these.

I find the threats sad. I believe in many things including the right of people to go on strike along with the right to carry on working if you so desire.

What I do not agree with are threats, intimidation, bullying, lying, selfishness, greed and attempting to destroy a company, thus ruining the lives of thousands who depend upon their jobs to live the lives they do.

As a non BA employee maybe others might wish to forward the data from my posting to relevant persons.

Hval

[Scouser1]

I also had about 6 messages of similar content to HVAL,via Youtube. Unfortunately I just deleted them so am unable to send them on...but they were pretty disgusting...

[Glamgirl]

For those who are interested, this is the flyer that the union sent out (via postal mail) to their members regarding the PCCC. It's obviously a work of fiction, and none of the contents are true.

Hopefully, the link will work. It's from a picture hosting website.

scan0007.jpg picture by godsgift_album - Photobucket (http://s812.photobucket.com/albums/zz50/godsgift_album/?action=view&current=scan0007.jpg&newest=1)


Gg

[Juan Tugoh]

..."We have a high number of ****S address details,telephone numbers and car details. BTW. DON't EAT ANYTHING YOU WILL BE SERVED ONBOARD. BRING YOUR OWN FOOD IN FUTURE ****. "

I think that both the Police and BA would be very interested in a threat made as to unlawful interference with a flight. The police would probably look at this under Anti-Terror legislation , BA will just sack the A*** for any of a number of misconducts under various EGs. Either way report the fools, it is nice that these idiots are self-selecting for a P45.

[From Tunbridge Wells]

Definitely report it to the police - any further court actions may benefit from this evidence too.

[JEM60]

SLF here. BA is as big a part of me as being British is, despite it's problems. It has, to me, represented much that is good about the U.K.

I am shortly tavelling, with you, to Brazil, and despite the uncertainty of action or otherwise, I have absolutely no intention of changing my booking to another airline. I have travelled with most of the transatlantic Airlines out of Heathrow and Gatwick, and always feel very happy to be travelling on the icon that is BA.

To the F'As deciding to continue working, all the best to you. To the potential strikers.... WAKE UP TO MODERN ECONOMICS!!!!!!

[spock33]

Well said. Let us all support BA during these difficult times. I firmly believe that in the end, good will triumph over evil.:ok:

[TorC]

For those who are interested, this is the flyer that the union sent out (via postal mail) to their members regarding the PCCC. It's obviously a work of fiction, and none of the contents are true.

Hopefully, the link will work. It's from a picture hosting website.

scan0007.jpg picture by godsgift_album - Photobucket (http://s812.photobucket.com/albums/zz50/godsgift_album/?action=view&current=scan0007.jpg&newest=1)

Gg

Here's a link to the flyer direct from the unite website ... might be a bit clearer than the above:

http://unitetheunion.com/pdf/021-BASSASupplFeb2010revweb.pdf

[The Real Slim Shady]

JEM, likewise.

I booked my flights for my holiday in March with BA.

I won't be intimidated into booking with another airline: the company needs more of us to affirm our support for the standard that is BA.

[spock33]

Out of interest I thought that the following quote may be pertinent.


That's why, whatever union Unite claims, BA must press on with the changes it wants to working practices. The carrier is still heading for record pre-tax losses – say £600m – this year, with little prospect of turning a healthy profit the following one.
As nimbler rivals, notably Ryanair and easyJet, chip away at BA's short-haul network, Walsh has to ensure that the airline's core business – suits flying long-haul – is extra competitive. That means more change – whether the trolley brigade like it or not. They should ask why Walsh would back down now, especially with £2bn of cash in the hold to ride out any storm.
Few employees relish being asked to work differently. So a bit of air-rage from the cabin crew is understandable. But they shouldn't go too far. Naomi tried that with BA – and got carted off the plane in handcuffs.


Please note that these are the comments of Alistair Osborne, Daily Telegraph.

[AtlasDrawer]

According to the BASSA forum:

4 x WW and 4 x EF crew have been suspended from BA (as of today) and taken off their trips and told to bring a TU rep with them for a disciplinary meeting.

I hope that BA are now starting to crack down on this now.

About time.

AD

[617sqn]

Any reason given for the suspension?

[AtlasDrawer]

Any reason given for the suspension

Not officially AFAIK, but the persons involved may have used ESS or some other way and so their email was easy to trace? That is the rumour going on BF at the moment.


I guess we shall know more later.

AD

[617sqn]

Wonder if it had anything to do with name(and shame) or the spoof PCCC e mails.
Plot thickens.

[iwalkedaway]

Although I thoroughly object to the term SLF, that is what I have been for many years - through most of which I have flown happily on numerous airlines other than BA. However, following this unhappy - yet riveting - saga, and having many friends and contacts on both BA flight decks and as CC - I have to say I have been moved to encourage my business to book BA as long as good deals can be struck (and increasingly they can). V. happy to anticipate flights staffed half by practised pros, half by volunteers - they could be fun. I am a little concerned by potential militant CC/volunteer FD frictions jeopardising safety standards, but confident professionalism and common sense on both sides will prevail - we're all aboard the same toothpaste tube, after all.

So what really tipped me into telling our travel people to try BA first, regardless? The kind of militant internet communications I've just been shown this morning by a moderate CC member. Posting them here unexpurgated I guess would get me banned - I'm only an interested bystander in any case - but what kind of twisted self-interest and warped sense of entitlement generates this kind of material?

As in: "You want to **** Willie's ****!!!! The thought of his **** **** inside your ***** ********* makes your ****** ****** *** soooo *****!!!! Good for you that you love him soo much!!!".

(MY APOLOGIES but surely this exemplifies an indisciplined mindset which a long respected and respectable community would have long since clamped down upon?).

All I can say is that I hope such misplaced militant effort scores an emphatic home goal. It has with me. BA bookings have been made. (all usual disclaimers). Good luck to all of you BA types who appreciate that you are our national flag carrier - and who act accordingly. Thanks.

iwalkedaway

[Snas]

Err, good grief...!

[From Tunbridge Wells]

I would imagine that the people who send threats like this don't have the intelligence to realise just how traceable they actually are

[midman]

I'm interested to know if Bassa have made any comment regarding such behaviour, either through official or informal comms.

[SlideBustle]

OMG! Must admit that this is getting hideously scary now! BTW Just would like to ask, when CC89 was set up, did BASSA do the same dirty tricks as they are now doing to PCC?

I am genuinely quite concerned now. The venom I have heard pour out of some crew's mouths about these pilots, ground staff etc volunteering and the names etc are actually concerning. I hope these people are dealt with by BA as this attitude is toxic to the working environment at BA - which as most employees would agree with me is, usually at least, pleasant. I am very worried about volunteering incase my name will be texted around. Will this list be open until a strike takes place or do I need to put my name on now does anyone know?

Any of you Flight Crew (or anyone else that may be reading this for that matter) I know you are proud of volunteering and, good for you you shouldn't be ashamed to wanting to feed your family and still have a job and protect your pension. BUT please please please be careful who you mention that you are volunteering to. I know most of you are not stupid, (well I think anyway!) but regardless of that some of my colleagues' attitudes are very selfish at the moment: they want people to respect the right to strike, but they don't respect the right to cross a picket line. Go figure!

Like a few posters have mentioned in the past, volunteering is not a decision I take lightly, neither is voting No really, as of course I want to safeguard my T&Cs and am worried of the future, but I am more worried of a strike damaging the airline. I obviously do worry that maybe others are right - will voting Yes be a message. Then I think, well it might be, but then WW looks like he will let a strike proceed. Am I willing to strike? When the airline has made a loss. I do feel this is such a hard decision! However coming into work will be no party whatsoever. Even though it may be hard and difficult at times, I will support any volunteers as it will not be easy for them either.

Let's hope a negotiated settlement will happen FAST before the ballot even closes! Wishful thinking??

[Clarified]

Mornin' !
Just volunteered again.

Welcome back gg.

[flyingsoldier1993]

Hi there,
just volunteered as well. I did so the first around time in December and I am perfectly happy to do it again. I also voted no to IA. If the majority will vote in favor, I will resign my union membership instantly.
I don't want to stand in anyones way and I will respect that my point of view is no longer required within Unite.
I will turn up for work 100%.
There is no way I will put my job on the line for a self serving out of touch bunch of hard headed union people that have not acted in my interest for quite some time.

[HiFlyer14]

Morning all. Yes, I just volunteered as well - anytime, anyplace, anywhere!

Slidebustle you are right - it is getting very scary. However, if you do not volunteer or exercise your RIGHT to go to work during a strike, then that is letting the bullies win. WE MUST ABSOLUTELY STAND FIRM AGAINST THIS ABHORRENT BEHAVIOUR.

If I hear any of the talk that you mention either in a briefing room, on a bus, downroute or anywhere on duty I will categorically refuse to continue to operate with that person. It is a safety issue and we are duty bound to raise it. END OF.

Stand firm, SB. The majority of people want to come to work and don't want a strike. They still think they can "Vote yes and they'll get back round the table" but it won't wash this time. They will have to put their money where their mouths are. This "text message brigade" are a small, repulsive minority in our community. What they don't realise is that they are doing more for the vote no campaign than WW ever could!

I am BA cabin crew and this is my own viewpoint and not that of BA.

[24-06]

Thanks for posting your comments following my concern a few pages ago about slightly euphoric posts. I was concerned that we were perhaps going down the line of some days ago when this thread had to be closed. I share all your concerns about the atmosphere within the CC community and as someone else has said here, I´m listening rather than saying anything. Not sure that I´d be brave enough to say I wouldn´t operate with some of the vociferous militants - it would need to be very, very bad - but generally I´ve been hearing more than anything that people are fed up with both sides and there has to be a solution. Whether that means they voted yes or no is difficult to tell! I have mentioned the PCCC to some people and that I received a print-out of their first letter in my drop-file two weeks ago but haven´t found anyone else who has admitted to the same.

By the way, there´s a whole road of wig shops in Finsbury Park (just to brighten your Sunday morning)!

[Mr Optimistic]

- comment not aimed at you, just getting at how bad the original must have been if that was post-improvement

[greatwhitehunter]

I have not volunteered as I can't swim well enough. For the first time in my life these poltroons have made me regret that inability.

[Tiramisu]

Hval et all,
Please do not be intimidated by these bullies using the S*** word, they are just cowards, nothing else. Anyone who threatens or bullies shouldn't be employed by BA.

I volunteered to work over Christmas and have done the same this time round. There are more crew who will come to work this time regardless of which way they have voted. As HiFlyer14 said, BASSA are in fact driving the Yes Voters to come to work, should there be a Strike.

I have been in the company for 26 years and having been through strikes previously in 1984 and 1997, I know how you feel. If anyone is worried or concerned please feel free to PM me, you have my total support.

No wigs or disguises for me. I'll come to work as I do everyday, in my uniform, park in the car park and nod to those on the picket line. I have never been intimidated by bullies, and I'm not about to be now.

I'm BA Cabin Crew and the above represent my personal views and not those of BA.

[hval]

@Tiramisu

Don't worry, am not intimidated. I thought it worthwhile letting people see the bullying, harassment etc. From BASSA supporters.

This will not be tolerated by the police, by BA, nor by the public at large

Hval

[24-06]

The wig mention was just some light hearted relief!

I have also signed up though I am now concerned to see that on another forum there are people talking about signing up to sabotage the trawl. I wish the ´opportunity´ hadn´t been described as such, hadn´t been targeted using the ´Backing BA´campaign and hadn´t mentioned staff travel concessions. I believe the more down-beat pre-Christmas ESS mail approach might have been more appropriate.

The above represent my personal views and not those of BA.

[BlueUpGood]

Hi all,

if BASSA are saying 8 total suspended, lets get real.. we all know how they love the truth:= I would place money on 20 - 30 plus. Now the real concern is that those who have received unsolicited, yet incriminating protected data etc, could well be caught up if they are found to be in possession of material.

Therefore, you MUST report anything to BA! If you tell them, in their eyes you are one of the good guys. If you don't, you may be under BA's microscope yourself. :uhoh:

[TopBunk]

Just a thought, but the 8 reported as being suspended could be in addition to those reps who were reported to have been suspended a while ago, iirc.

[BAcrewboy]

Well, like many of my friends, I have volunteered to come to work during any period of I.A. (I am EF crew). Now on the other forum, they are planning to get everone to volunteer and then not turn up - so the company won't be able to plan anything! I wish these people would see the error of their mis-guided ways!

[24-06]

Hi BACrewboy. I´ve seen those comments too though now others have started to advise against that thank goodness. Still, I do have my reservations. I wish the ´opportunity´ hadn´t been described as such, hadn´t been targeted using the ´Backing BA´campaign and hadn´t mentioned staff travel concessions. I believe the more down-beat pre-Christmas ESS mail approach might have been more appropriate. However, I´ve signed up!

The above represent my personal views and not those of BA.

[flapsforty]

hval, purposely going onto youtube to stir up sh!t and then coming on here to moan when sh!t is exactly what you get...... :ugh:

Also, claiming here that you are not employed by BA and claiming elsewhere that you are and have completed the FA course .... maybe you should sort out your identities before you post again?

Silly games not welcome here.

[winstonsmith]

Let them volunteer and not turn up for duty - I'm sure they will be regretting it when BA is placing them in their disciplinary system EGXXX.

[VSOP Fables]

Thanks flapforty, I thought it was just my addled brain thinking 'why did you get a hate message and then say you're not employed by BA?'

[Sporran]

Have recently finished the '3-day' pilots cabin crew course. I was undecided about doing the course until the really nasty and unfounded garbage started spouting from bassaland! The conduct of some of these people is WELL below the gutter. If these horrendously vile people get sacked it will be a big plus for ALL of us that fly:eek:

The SEP folk are doing a great job in rather trying circumstances, but common-sense means that line-trainers are not being used to train the pilots. WW is obviously really going for it now. We were informed that the training is now ramped up to a course EVERY day.

By my reckoning that could mean over 500 pilots trained up and some of them are also being trained up as SCCMs. Mixed with the other airline volunteers doing their courses, the returning crew onto temporary courses and those 'enlightened' crew that come to work....... a good part of the operation will be able to operate.

On a positive note - I am really pleased that I have a MUCH better understanding of what goes on behind the flight deck door. It will help me appreciate better what the crew are doing.

I know it was a cramming course, due to pilots already being conversant with SEP, but I do not remember working so hard for the 3 days of groundschool and the computer pre-learning.

For those uninitiated that think all the cabin crew do is serve tea and coffee - THINK AGAIN.:D

[Beagle9]

Re JazyKex post on page 1 of this threat where he states that cabin crew are concerned that there are no binding, written reassurances regarding New Fleet and it's potential impact on our incomes.

The reason there are, at this stage, no binding, written reassurances is that BASSA/UNITE REFUSE TO DISCUSS THEM IN ANY MEANINGFUL WAY.

Reassurance1: Fixed monthly payment: Fair idea and because part of agreement on pay, would be contractual. Generally rubbished by BASSA/UNITE in their communications - still on offer by BA - if only BASSA/UNITE would cross the Ts and dot the Is.

Reassurance2: A formula for transfering work/routes as crew leave existing fleets and New Fleet grows (Good trips = A, Middling trips = B, Poor trips = C - Transfer trips in rotational order A, then B, then C, - both fleets have fair mix of work - offered as possible solution by Leadership team in the summer - BASSA wouldn't even discuss it and as far as I remember I've never even seen it mentioned in any UNITE communication. In fact when I mention it to other crew, few if any even know about it.

UTTER DISGRACE. I pay (or rather I used to, before this month) union subscriptions so that my representatives can look at, communicate and nogociate ALL possible options that might benefit me, NOT ignore/rubbish/discredit them because it doesn't fit in with their own agenda (read: reduced membership fees from poorer paid crew/idealogical hatred of Willie Walsh/infightling and powerstruggles within Unite)

I'm crew myself, I love the majority of my colleagues, but I just hope they wake up soon to just what a scandal BASSA/Unite's behaviour has been and the spell cast over them by this discreditted organisation finally gets broken.

[Two-Tone-Blue]

@ Sporran ... a nice insight. Thanks for giving comfort to the pax.

[The Blu Riband]

Beagle

good post!

what really continues to amaze me is that the majority of cabin crew don't ask these questions of their reps and each other.

Can they not see that Bassa are not discussing any change, are lying about their conduct during the meetings, and leading the crew down a dangerous road of belligerence and bullying.
Yes they have made some poorly thought out proposals that are temporary, and less than half what BA are looking to save, but surely if the union tried to make the savings in a serious way it wouldn't be too difficult.
Only then will BA stop seeing Bassa as a clear danger to the future of BA.


The level of hypocrisy is breathtaking.
They can use foul language and name calling. Threaten to poison and damage property. Pass the names of XXXXs , for what can only be nefarious reasons.

Yet if BA say or write anything to present their side , or to encourage crew to consider not voting yes ----- they are branded as bullies and are reported to the union or Safecall.

Nothing BA do will be able to stop the endemic distrust throughout crew ranks. Their only choice is to sweep clean, and start again.

[The Blu Riband]

I don't believe that Willie set out with the intention of "destroying" Bassa.

But it has become obvious to everyone that this dangerous and deluded bunch of power crazy individuals, and their gang of sycophants, will have to be beaten comprehensively to allow BA to move towards a successful future.

These people don't care about their members, or BA, in any meaningful way.

[wascrew]

wascrew, please fix your formatting issues, your post is unreadable.
Thank you.

[617sqn]

I have just volunteered to work through the "possible" strike.
I say possible as only time will tell how many will have the guts to stand up for what they believe in and strike.
I did feel a bit scared for a minute.Then I remembered my daughter coming home from school in tears saying she was being bullied.
I was livid.I told the head teacher to sort it out as she was not going to be intimidated.
The meeting was interesting as it was the chair of governors daughter doing the bullying.In her eyes she was above the law.
Turns out she's not!
Different rules in the playground now.

I am an adult and I refuse to be bullied.
I have the guts to stand by my beliefs.Do you?

[Watersidewonker]

So the chess game goes on with the court case taking a back seat while the interfighting goes on.

[LD12986]

It's not surprising that both sides are keeping quiet about the court case whilst it's still ongoing.

[cym]

Waterside - not at all, we will all know the outcome in due course.

Now how will you react if the judgement is that the changes are non contractual?

Take it you agree that impossition is what the ballot is all about???

[617sqn]

Welcome back Watersidewonker.

we live in a free world.Our grandparents fought for that.
To be able to debate issues is great.
Please feel free to post here.

[Twrecks]

I booked my flights for my holiday in March with BA.

I won't be intimidated into booking with another airline: the company needs more of us to affirm our support for the standard that is BA.:ok:

Thank-you,

[Tiramisu]

I booked my flights for my holiday in March with BA.

I won't be intimidated into booking with another airline: the company needs more of us to affirm our support for the standard that is BA. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

Thank-you,


A big Thank You from me too.
You'll be guaranteed service with a smile from all of us on board, that's a promise.:)

[Tiramisu]

The wig mention was just some light hearted relief!

24-06,
I knew exactly what you meant, it was taken in the spirit it was said.;)

[bermudatriangle]

Does BA's announced operating profit,put the current negotiations in a new light?The fight for survival,seems to have elapsed.maybe the cabin crew do not now have to conceed so many benefits to help the company survive the economic downturn.Airbus executives stated at the singapore airshow that they expect passenger numbers to return to pre-economic downturn levels this year,therefore increasing demand significantly.
combined with oil at $75 a barrel,as opposed to $140 a year ago,all is looking well for the commercial airline market.
maybe BA and the unions can negotiate a sensible resolution to the current dispute,benefitting both employees and the company.
lets hope common sense prevails.

[wascrew]

I say again; fix your formatting problems, what you are posting is unreadable!

f40
Moderator

[Lord Bracken]

Does BA's announced operating profit,put the current negotiations in a new light?The fight for survival,seems to have elapsed.maybe the cabin crew do not now have to conceed so many benefits to help the company survive the economic downturn.Airbus executives stated at the singapore airshow that they expect passenger numbers to return to pre-economic downturn levels this year,therefore increasing demand significantly.
combined with oil at $75 a barrel,as opposed to $140 a year ago,all is looking well for the commercial airline market

Yep, all is well. Nothing to see here.

Oh, other than
- collapse in transatlantic premium yield
- price of oil set to rise due to economic recovery (more demand, 'finite' resource, higher price)
- aging, uncompetitive fleet
- aircraft configuration inflexible, relying on "the money run"
- inflexible and uneconomic manpower arrangements
- excessive taxation of air travel in home market
- inflexible operations at main hub airport
- aggressive competition on all routes (European, Asia, Down under, North Atlantic)
- massive pension deficit
- challenging but necessary merger yet to occur.

Yep, rosy.

[midman]

Bermuda triangle,

We are so far away from being a profitable airline - fuel 2-3 years ago was $40/barrel, we were selling club seats to the financial services industry at huge prices, everyone had cheap credit and flew everywhere.

Today fuel is at $70/barrel, club seats are being sold for peanuts to retain market share, travel agents are refusing to sell BA tickets, the recession is expected to double dip after a 0.1% 'recovery', our competitors have a cost base way below ours, we are losing best part of £600m this year and Britain is expected to be the last of the major economies to recover.

We made an operating profit because cuts have been made by the majority of us, (but not some). But the operating profit means nothing if we're losing millions overall. It's still millions leaving the business! We did still make a major pre tax loss, the good news is that it wasn't as horrendous as it could have been.

We still have to learn that we will never get back to the credit boom days of 2-3 years ago, when our inefficiencies could be tolerated because the market would pay our inflated prices.

Today the market won't pay, and nor will it tomorrow, or next year. The next boom may be 15 - 20 years+ away, and we have to cut our cloth accordingly.

We can't afford to pay 100% over the market average for anything - fuel, aircraft, IT support, sales teams, pilots or even cabin crew. Some major changes have to occur to make the business fit for the next 5 years, and I'm afraid the old school industrial structure of IFS is ripe for a total rebuild, from top to bottom.

That's what's happening now, for both short and long term business reasons.

[Litebulbs]

An interesting post. Not too much as been debated about where BA are financially today, after the many pages on the speculated £1b loss over the last two years, previously.

This last quarter could be interesting too, if Unite win the court case and this years final results are more promising than forcast. Would the SOSR be as defendable for contractual changes, if and it is quite a big if, BA return to profitablity earlier than expected.

And that pension overpayment of £1.12b off of the bottom line over the last three years?

[BAcrewboy]

As you know, I am crew and will work through the strike, but, with regard to the loss of staff travel for those who don't come to work - Wille says that the strike will cost the business a lot and the costs will have to be recovered from elsewhere - how does staff travel cost the business any money? I am sure it must somewhere, but cannot see how?

[bermudatriangle]

Midman,you state Club seats are being sold for peanuts.may i direct you to BA.com and sourse club class fares to new york or sydney.i do not think you will find any fares on sale for peanuts!!
lots of miss-information is circulating at the moment,i suggest factual information is much more enlightening as to the real situation.

[617sqn]

I think that staff travel will be removed from strikers as punishment.
I think that if a strike goes ahead the costs would come off the cc budget.
It has been mentioned on here that the training costs for volunteers is coming off the cc budget.
the last letter from Bill Francis made it quite clear that the lost revenue would have to be repaid.
How that will be done will be quite scary.
I think it is in all our interests to return a no vote.

[LD12986]

Midman,you state Club seats are being sold for peanuts.may i direct you to BA.com and sourse club class fares to new york or sydney.i do not think you will find any fares on sale for peanuts!!
lots of miss-information is circulating at the moment,i suggest factual information is much more enlightening as to the real situation.


Club fares to New York are on sale for around £1,499 - that is cheap.

Also, you do not know what discounts BA has to offer to retain individually negotiated corporate contracts, some of which could be well below what is on ba.com.

Whereas corporate clients used to have deals with one carrier and agree a retrospective volume based rebate, many corporate clients are now shopping around and agreeing upfront discounts with different carriers for specific routes (Virgin for New York, SAA for Johannesburg etc).

[midman]

BTriangle,

They are being sold for far less than they were 2 years ago.

Club return to JFK for less than £1500 next month, less than £2000 to Houston is, I can assure you, peanuts compared to what they were being sold for then. Don't look at what it costs to fly there this week as an indication of the revenue generated in Club on those flights

Our business model is based on fares well in excess of what we charge at the moment - BA admitted this week that there are some club seats on sale for less than economy, in order to retain the business traveller.

I agree on the level of misinformation out there - I haven't seen a truthful fact from Bassa in the last 3 months that I have any knowledge of (genuinely).

BA however have to make statements that don't mislead the market, no matter how badly that fits with Bassa's view of the world.

[bermudatriangle]

LD,there has always been competition for corporate business,with private individuals subsidising the corporate accounts.thats true of any business,not exclusive to airlines,just look at what you pay for a car compared to fleet buyers.
airfares are rising significantly,load factors are increasing,all indicators point to a substantial recovery in the market.BA announces an operating profit,fact,only suppressed by interest payments and pension costs.
like it or not,the market is growing and return to profitability is far more likely than it was 6 months ago.
all i suggest,is that this puts the current potential industrial dispute in perspective.maybe a sucessful negotiated solution is now much more likely.

[LD12986]

LD,there has always been competition for corporate business,with private individuals subsidising the corporate accounts.thats true of any business,not exclusive to airlines,just look at what you pay for a car compared to fleet buyers.


I'm afraid it's the other way around.

Corporate clients are able to negotiate significant discounts because they provide suppliers with regular high volume income for a relatively low selling cost.

It's the big corporate clients that are the lifeblood of BA profits.

[midman]

Btriangle,

You imply that the pension payments, which along with other costs, have dragged us into a significant loss this quarter, are a temporary problem, and can be effectively discounted from the accounts to assess the financial situation of the company.

They are there until the state of the pension funds changes significantly for the better, and knowing the assumptions that the actuaries are required to use, you'll agree those pension liabilities are likely to weigh on the company's finances for years to come, I'm sure. Or do you think we can ignore them and just consider operating financial performance?

I'm interested in your opinion.

[bermudatriangle]

Midman,i never suggested that the pension deficit is a temporary problem.the pension crisis is severe and has to be addressed,with painful consequences for all potential beneficiaries.all i stated was that the operating profit was extinguished by pension contributions and interest payments.the significant point was that the operation has once again returned to profitability,a very welcome development.
the issues of pension liability and interest payments are seperate and warrant specific measures to address the issues.
the BA board would be well advised to direct attention to the pension crisis,which is obvious to anyone,seriously outweighs any cabin crew costs.
it's BA's pension liability which concerns all potential investors.

[Sporran]

As a ground worker, and a member of Unite, said to me the other day -
"every other work group in BA have made savings and changed their working practices, except cabin crew! Why do they think they are so special?"
That from a ground worker!!

As much as I do not want to see the damage that a strike will do - I hope that WW goes the whole hog and confronts the selfish monster of bassa. The bassa 'reps' over the years have been a militant bunch on par with scargill and at long last there is a CEO who is not willing to be bullied by a bunch who's answer to every dispute is to vote for strike action.

[wiggy]

Does BA's announced operating profit,put the current negotiations in a new light?The fight for survival,seems to have elapsed.maybe the cabin crew do not now have to conceed so many benefits

Part of the reason for the return to operating profit is the cost saving agreements already made by Engineering, Pilots and other areas of the Company. Mr Walsh has always been adamant that all groups must meet their cost saving targets. IMHO for political reasons alone the CEO now has no choice but to make sure the Cabin Crew are seen to meet their cost savings in full.