British Airways - CC Industrial Relations Mk VI

[Snas]

Reacting to the publication by BA of its strike-breaking flights schedule, a Unite spokesperson said: "BA should enter this schedule for the Booker Prize for fiction. It is an accomplished work of fantasy."


Nice...!

Source: - http://www.unitetheunion.com/news__events/latest_news/ba_strike_schedules_a_work_of.aspx (http://www.unitetheunion.com/news__events/latest_news/ba_strike_schedules_a_work_of.aspx)

[cym]

If you do read it one point becomes very clear!

If its contents are true then BASSA are cr*p at representing their members at disciplinary hearings! From what I could see only 3 were stopped due to BA not following due process the rest went ahead!

To me that clearly indicates that either the content is false (my opinion) or that BASSA couldn't care less about looking after their members (well we already knew that!)

Moving on.........

[west lakes]

Of course I'm sure the relevent unions have briefed their members and reps on the changes to the docor's sick note system from 4th April

http://www.tuc.org.uk/extras/fitnote.pdf

It mainly affects those on long term illness and allows the doctor to suggest options under which an employee can return to work

[Aileron Drag]

Willie, you have just reminded me of one of the reasons I was so pleased to retire. Whereas most cabin crew were really nice people to work with, I was often depressed by the nasty anti-pilot folk with chips on both shoulders.

Willie, you have a problem. Your message is bordering on manic, and does not help to resolve the problem.

For the rest of you good folk, I hope you manage to avoid the burning fire into which your Union is casting you.

[nurjio]

Aileron, your wrong, Willie has cut n pasted - and is merely sharing the BASSA 'HAW HAW' stuff. It's not 'his' stuff.

nurj

[El Grifo]

The real WW almost blew the strategy a few days back when Unite came within a hairsbreadth of accepting his offer.

He must have been relieved.

The whole plan would have gone out the window had Unite accepted.

Little wonder he will never consider putting it back on the table.:}

[Papillon]

Crew member 8 is pregnant and in danger of losing her baby. She has gone to Australia and is uncontactable

Anyone else spot the flaw here?

[airpolice]

I'm just a passenger.

I used to get staff travel discounts from my sister, but now I pay for my tickets with money that I work hard for.

I run my own business, and I am baffled as to how the seemingly intelligent people I meet in BA are so taken in by the lefties.

There is nothing more important in any business than Management's right to manage. The unions, staff associations or even the individual staff, are not in a position to decide how the company operates. That's a certain road to madness and death of the business.

Ask yourself this; "How fcuked are you going to be if BA should go to the wall"

Also ask; "How Fcuked is Willie Walsh going to be if BA......"


The answers are "Very" and "Not at all"

If you cabin crew want to have a job then you will need to get on with doing what you are being paid for. People at the top decide what is to be done and people at the bottom do it. If you serve me my dinner and I decide not to eat it until ten minutes to landing, you'll not have time to clear up before we all need to be strapped in. If I decide, along with more passengers to walk around the cabin during the approach, things are going to get difficult for all of us. Why can't cabin crew reailse that if the bosses say "This is the number of crew you are going to have on the aircraft" that has to be the way of it?


In the event that some of you want to decide how to run an airline, here's a quick taste of business reaility.


BA falls apart, Willie and the top brass make off with loads of money they already have, and they can get jobs, Knighthoods and Peerages as they have shown they are made of the right stuff. The ever so happy bosses at the other airlines, having been saved from bankruptcy by the abolition of BA, are all going to do well, as will their cabin crew, pilots and others.


HR Managers at those other airlines will be swamped by applications from ex BA staff. Put yourself in the place of such an HR Manager. Would you employ somone who helped to put BA under? With no way of knowing who was militant and who was caught up in it, best just to say no.


There will be some good news. The people at Unite will be safe as they will still have their jobs and be able to pay their mortgage, buy a new car etc. etc and even go on holiday.

Did Arthur Scargill or Maggie Thatcher go hungry during the Miner's strike? Not on your life. Did they end up jobless? No.

Is Willie Walsh's future at stake? No.

Is Yours?

[Middy]

Williewalsh, "the actions of some flightdeck " that you allude to are possibly going to keep this company alive and well for the majority of us who quite like having a job and do not mind working harder to be paid the same wage.

[Two-Tone-Blue]

Papillon, I noted that as well, but you are spoiling a great work of fantasy. I'm quite sure CC No. 8 had a doctor's certificate declaring her fit to fly to Oz - otherwise no sensible airline would consider her as pax in such a critical medical condition.

[binsleepen]

WW note is a salutory reminder that when it is your turn to have the BASSA brain cell ensure all forms of electronic communication are switched off and if possible have the batteries removed.

Anyone discussing other peoples names with regards to company sensitive information in such fraught times deserves everything they get.

regards

[Glamgirl]

I know I've been "absent" for a while, but as NewIrishbabe rightly predicted, I've been very busy with reassuring worried crew about the strike and coming into work. I've also been flying rather a lot. I've been keeping up to speed though, as one would expect.

I've cancelled days off and leave to make sure I'm at work during any strike.


The next one is an email from the union which I, as a LGW crew member finds offensive, especially the first paragraph.

Unite 's Offer and Gatwick Crew

Sadly, the majority of Gatwick based cabin crew have failed to take the
initiative to read and fully comprehend the extent of the Unite
proposal -which was tabled at the TUC in order to avert industrial action.
Instead, many chose to simply read a few inaccurate lines in an email from
Bill Francis and take that as fact instead.

The formal offer presented by Unite was rejected by British Airways after
only a few minutes.....

Your representatives at Gatwick and Heathrow, from both BASSA and AMICUS,
have fought for more than 13 months in order to protect Gatwick 's right
to transfer under Op's and Choice , and to return the 2nd purser to our
Longhaul aircraft.
Ultimately we have fought as equally to protect your future career, and
from working to poorer conditions than those you currently enjoy, as we
have for every other crew member.
In return, British Airways claims that 70% of the base have volunteered to
work during the strike, undermining the work we have done on your behalf.

So let's set the record straight, once and for all.

Unite 's offer has been rejected by BA, however, before it could have been
officially accepted, the membership would have been balloted as to whether
or not they wished to accept it.

Part of Unite 's offer represents a pay cut deal, similar to the pilots
deal and is REPAYABLE!

To repeat... It is REPAYABLE. Just like a loan.

How?
With a temporary 2.6% pay cut for the 2010 period.
This means, for a crew member who se basic salary is GBP11,600 per year,
a temporary cut of GBP301.06 in 2010, or no more than GBP25 a month for
12 months.


This would then be REPAID in FULL- PLUS with a cash bonus NEXT year!

What price is that? A take-away on a Saturday night? A carton of 200
cigarettes? Half a tank of petrol? A round of drinks on at the bar?

So, for GBP25 a month (or less) for 12 months, REPAYABLE with a cash
bonus, Unite offers to protect your transfer rights, return the second
purser to our 777 aircraft and protect your career path for the remainder
of your career!

Make no mistake. BA are insisting that everyone must play their part in
achieving their determined cost savings. The PSR on the 777 equates to
GBP200,000 per year. Our proposal also ensure you can transfer under Op's
and Choice to LHR, within the appropriate rank, to higher pay-scales on
current TandC's.

BA's last proposal STILL means the PSR stays off the 777.
Gatwick Pursers are currently telling us that they are acutely
experiencing the financial hardship the reduction of onboard pursers is
causing.
Plus, if BA have their way, which they currently DO, you have NO transfer
rights outside of LGW on current fleets. Your transfer rights are gone
FOREVER.

Having offered BA all the cost savings they asked for, it is clear - this
dispute is not about cost saving. It's simply about whether you have the
right to Union representation within this airline. It's about you standing
up for your rights in the workplace. We have. Will you?
If not- we can only assume you are happy to have your working positions
removed from our aircraft unilaterally- and that you have no desire to
transfer. With Op's and Choice gone forever- you will have extremely
limited opportunity as cabin crew within British Airways. Do not kid
yourself that LGW will be priortised for recruitment on New Fleet. New
Fleet will have limited places for the single supervisory grade, and
applications will come from the current management structure within the
whole of BA - AND- direct entry from external recruitment. Competition for
all positions will be far higher than you can imagine.

We would like to thank the many Gatwick cabin crew who have not
volunteered to work over our legitimate strike, and who we will continue
to fight for without fear nor regret.

The unite document can be read in its entirety here: -

http://www.bassa.co.uk/bassa/downloads/10thMarchUniteFinalDocument.doc (http://www.bassa.co.uk/bassa/downloads/10thMarchUniteFinalDocument.doc)

Although our proposal has been rejected- we strongly suggest you take the
time to read it and understand exactly what is at stake. If you
don't- we won't be here. So WHO will?

Your reps, as always are available to answer any questions you may have.
You may feel that by volunteering to work over the strike will protect
you, but you are simply placing your head in the sand and allowing another
to fight on your behalf.

Everybody has a right to choose. Choose a career with a future even if it
means fighting for it. You 're not alone.
Do nothing- and things will only get worse. Don't miss your opportunity to
make a change. Your future depends upon it.

Having read the union proposal, there isn't much in there regarding the LGW transfer opportunities that the crew are worried about and the union harp on about. There is no "guarantee" in the document at all, just a "we'll try, but don't hold your breath". Just for the record, I've no desire to transfer, and I know that there won't be any transfers on current t&cs. It seems to me that as per usual, the union adds an issue that many feel strongly about but the union won't be able to do anything about rectifying it, purely to get "support" from LGW crew. Just my opinion, of course.

Gg

Ps. Sorry Mods, for the reposting of the disciplinary document and the length of post.

I'm BA CC and this is my opinion and not that of my employer

[P-T-Gamekeeper]

I thought I would just post a quick message of support to all those flying as passengers, non striking crew, or volunteer crew this weekend.

To all our passengers, thank you for your custom. We will be doing our utmost to get you where you need to be. Whilst the service onboard may lack some of the usual finesse, you can rest assured that all of the crew on board are there for you, trying to minimise any disruption to your travel plans. Regardless of what union leaders have said in the press, all volunteer crew will be fully trained in safety and medical procedures, so you should not worry on that front.

To any non striking cabin crew, I salute your bravery in crossing a picket line, for the good of our customers and our futures. I hope the selfish actions of your union representatives do not impact too much on your future careers. Please help out any volunteer crew with your experience and knowledge. You can also have the comfort that your Flight Crew on the day will give you all the support you need to get you through a tough day.

To the ground staff crew volunteers, welcome to our world!! We are glad to have you working alongside us, even though we wish the circumstances were different. Anybody on my flight to Chicago this weekend, you shant be spending your allowances in the bar, as your beers are on me!!!!!!

[Snas]

Ooooh....

FT.com / Companies / Airlines - Union offer to suspend planned BA strike (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/a96cdb96-306b-11df-bc4a-00144feabdc0.html)

[Clarified]

Glamgirl, welcome back.
I too have volunteered to fly anywhere, anytime etc. etc. etc. What's very heartening it appears more and more of our colleagues are doing the same. (Quite a robust schedule in place).
Interestingly, some of the crew I spoke with today were aware of the details of last weeks offer from the company (post # 2723).
Those that knew the details said they would have accepted it.

Bit late for that now I guess.



My thoughts, they do not represent my employer or any other party.

[Two-Tone-Blue]

@ Snas ... WOW

“Put the offer back on the table and we will look sensibly at suspending the strike and we can hopefully find a long-term solution to a very difficult subject,” he said.

Hmmm ... now there IS a conundrum. I guess we all watch with interest.

This is, IMO, being handled at a VERY high level now. Mr McCluskey would appear to be sidelined, after slapping Mr Walsh in the face [figuratively] by calling the strike despite the 3-week additional negotiation offer.

[LD12986]

However, "we look sensibly" does not equate to "we will".

[fruitbat]

The final offer BA tabled will look like a dream offer compared to the one UNITE will be shown after a failed strike.

[Two-Tone-Blue]

Agreed - "sensibly" hasn't been a feature, by some perspectives. However, my reading [between those few lines] is that Mr Woodley is now in charge of negotiations. And that Unite has effectively been 'told' to sort it out.

I won't presume to second-guess what Mr Walsh will think/say/do - because BA has already incurred [U]substantial additional costs in covering for the strike. And that's going to come out of someone's hide.

Next 24 hours will be fascinating.

[Re-Heat]

The PCCC really needs to get their proverbial in gear NOW and roll out an action plan to represent crew starting on day 1 of the strike.

There will only be one opportunity like this.

[winstonsmith]

UNITE makes me sick - utterly sick.

Willie Walsh gives them another 3 weeks so that they could ballot their members on the proposal - yet UNITE announces the strike dates and go mad when BA withdraws the proposal but kept insisting they could never recommend that proposal to their members- now they are insisting THAT particular offer is to be put back on the table.

You can't eat the cake and eat it too - but I can understand how tempting it must be for you Len McCluskey.

UNITE has been pushed into a corner - face the facts - it's time to put an end to all of this and BA won't be backing down now.

Why should BA call off everything - put back the proposal - and wait another few days before UNITE calls another strike because they can't reach an agreement - and it's back to square one?

[HasFlyed]

Snas
Thanks for FT link

My first reaction is FEAR. Fear that WW will accept this late offer. However, after a few minutes reflection, and after watching the proceedings of the last year I cannot believe that WW would be so foolish as to throw this chance for a revolution in industrial relations at BA to the winds.
What would YOU do?

[Two-Tone-Blue]

Does WW want a revolution? Would he be able to continue carry ALL BA staff with him, if his sole remaining objective is the destruction of BASSA?

Tricky one - not 'simples'.

[Re-Heat]

What would I do? Impose the below:

- Preserve Ts & Cs for present crew to enable them to live under the financial conditions they have grown used to and service mortgages with, but under new efficiency measures for London turnarounds, disruption, and monthly travel payment
- Pension off any current crew who want to go under VR
- Hire to New Fleet from today
- Remove all high-cost routes from old crew (irrelevant with monthly travel payment - gains efficiency saving immediately)
- Ensure all crews fly as a crew with flight crew for whole trip
- Introduce more overseas bases in conjunction with the IB merger, expansion of OpenSkies, and establishment of position not so dependent on high-cost Heathrow
- Give PCCC a kick to get things moving

Won't hurt current crew one iota (except those cheating the system to go to NRT each month) and European crew will simply be in the air more in return for less time waiting around at T5, and enables long-term competitiveness.

[ArthurScargill]

How can WW re-table last weeks proposal. Surely any offer he makes now will have to include the tangible money lost since strike dates were announced last week ?

[HasFlyed]

ReHeat

I'll go with that, but the step before that is tricky.

Bearing in mind the political pressure for a "quick fix", and the risk of loosing public, (and staff), support if he were to turn down the request to return the offer to the table. He has to make a new offer which allows for the considerable costs incurred by the strike call. At this stage, I can only see that being rejected by BASSA with an accompanying blast of indignation.
IMO we will have to wait a while as the pressure mounts on the CC to make a move?

[LD12986]

The political dimension to this (which was of course predicted by many) is getting interesting. If The Government is really putting the pressure on Unite to sort this, WW should at least be able to let Unite stew for a couple more days and then see what they're prepared to go with - the cancellations for the weekend have already gone through so the damage is done.

[Papillon]

I'm not sure that FT story is any different from what's been said by the union for a day or two now, is it?

Actually, this Guardian story might shed some light:

British Airway's last chance to avoid costly strike and save £100m | Business | guardian.co.uk (http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/mar/15/airlines-british-airways-strike)

I'm a touch surprised by the quoted spokesman's comments though. Not that they're necessarily wrong, just that it's the first miss-step in a while from BA

"Tony Woodley [joint general secretary] is not saying that he would recommend it [the proposal]. He is not saying that he would accept it. BA has been threatened with strikes for months. We are fed up with the uncertainty and we are not going to put up with it."

[HasFlyed]

As a point of interest, the BA website home page has strike information which when followed through to individual flights shows the wet lease carriers for flights.

eg. DUS-LHR Saturday 20th March

BA935 Operated by BA Airbus

BA937 Operated by Titan B757

BA939 Operated by Transavia B737

It looks to me as if a pretty robust schedule is taking shape.

It is there for all to see, of course for the PAX, but striking CC I suggest you take a peep.

[Caribbean Boy]

Here is some of the things which Willie Walsh said at today's employee forum.

He was called last Thursday morning by Derek Simpson (joint general secretary of Unite) asking for an extension of the strike mandate. (Unite must legally strike within 28 days of a ballot, but the employer can agree an extension.) This would enable the crew to be balloted on BA's last offer. Simpson indicated that crew might accept the offer.

He reluctantly agreed to a 22-day extension from 22 March to 13 April. A strike could then be legally called seven days before (on 6 April). Simpson called him again that day to confirm the arrangement.

On the next day, he heard nothing from Simpson prior to McCluskey's announcement of strike action and Unite's non-recommendation of the offer. He felt betrayed by Simpson and withdrew BA's offer.

On Friday night, Brendan Barber of the TUC asked him to resubmit BA's offer if the strikes were called off. He agreed to this but no offer to call off the strikes was made.

ACAS asked him to attend a meeting with Unite on Sunday, so he reluctantly went with Tony McCarthy, the director of people & organisational effectiveness. Nobody from Unite turned up.

There are 949 cabin crew volunteers and he expects a 1,000 soon. More training courses will be held.

Some 21 or 22 wet-lease planes will be available.

A limited number of 747s will be in service. All 777s will be in service. (This is why all of LGW's long-haul flights will operate.)

He has every intention of toughing out this dispute.

[Snas]

He was called last Thursday morning by Derek Simpson (joint general secretary of Unite) asking for an extension of the strike mandate.


I dont understand this, if you call strike dates within the permitted period you dont need an extension, as you get one anyway, starting the clock again.

So, why did they ask?


ACAS asked him to attend a meeting with Unite on Sunday, so he reluctantly went with Tony McCarthy, the director of people & organisational effectiveness. Nobody from Unite turned up.



The BBC reported this briefly earlier but then reported that Unite said it was totally untrue and they didnt seem to mention it again thereafter..? Odd...

Can you even imagine, Walsh himself stood like spare ***** outside the ACAS offices awaiting Unite, the air in the car on the way back must have been blue to say the least...!

[tezzrezz]

They hadn't called the strike at that point. They wanted to extend the deadline so they would have time to ballot the cabin crew for 2-3 weeks. WW agreed to an extension, the offer was there as long as they didn't call any strike giving them time to ballot the crew and then call for a strike if the crew didn't accept the offer.

[HasFlyed]

Two Tone Blue

Clarification:

I used the word revolution in the sense of a rapid and extensive change and did not intend any suggestion of bloodshed or hardship.
To be absolutely clear - I mean the removal of the "Spanish Practices" that make the CC working environment so archaic, inflexible and therefor, expensive for BA. The destruction of BASSA/Unite is not IMO an objective of WW, but their behaviour to date does seem to make it a very probable outcome!

[BentleyH]

Snas,

The legislation dictates that you must commence industrial action within 28 days of announcing the ballot result and give the employer at least 7 days notice of every day of strike action. There is also however a clause which states that if both sides agree to an extension of the 28 days, then the deadline can be extended to a mutually agreed date. So Willie was asked by Derek Simpson if he would be prepared to support an extension so that Unite could run a full paper ballot consulting on BA's offer. Willie agreed on the condition that strike dates wouldn't be announced whilst the ballot was taking place but within hours of having agreed to do this with Mr Simpson, Unite then announced the strike dates anyway. The first Willie knew about this was when he got a call from the BA press office saying it was on Sky News!!!
Hopefully that clears up the issue about the legislation and the 28 day period.
It also shows how utterly divided Unite are. One general Secretary says one thing whilst the other does the opposite, and then there is McLunk, Jack Dromie and Steve Turner lobbing grenades around to boot....what a shower. And I didn't even get onto BASSA lot.....

[cym]

So Unite have blinked first

They want Fridays offer retabled, CC have seen what that offered and would accept it - Len knows that and it may well explain his lack of presence in todays coverage of events

We are now in face saving mode for BASSA / Unite. Internal drivers are more to do with their leaders individuals postion in the pecking order rather than looking after their members interests (see GlamGirls post re the position of thier LGW members in the unions view - disgracefull)

Additional costs have been incurred by BA - what happens to them?

My ideal situation is that BA retables the offer and takes legal action against Unite to cover the costs BA have incurred by their inept conduct over the last year (this is coming from a left of centre, union supporting person)

If this takes place Lala et all will be taken care of by Unite

[ottergirl]

Question?
Its being reported elsewhere that T5 has no facility to unload 737 wet-lease a/c as our loaders are not trained on them. Does anyone know if this is true?

[Snas]

It’s getting late and perhaps I’m being dim, ok, I understand how the legislation works, cheers.

What I don't get is that the only reason to ask for an extension therefore would be so that you didn’t have to call a strike (at that point).

That being said (if I were Willie) I wouldn’t have even thought to have added a no strike announcement condition believing that was the whole point, the motivation, of the request in the first place.

/ Silly example, PAX “Can I have a seat with more leg room please?” CC “Yes, but only if you go and sit in it” /

Are you suggesting that the two main players from Unite were operating independently of each other and without knowledge of what the other was doing / planning? Surely not.!

[cym]

..not heard of bussing to remote stands, ie T1,2,3,4? Where non palate hold baggage is not an issue?

Do you honestly believe that this has not been covered off in contingency planning?

[im1234]

McL article in the guardian

Don't blame British Airways cabin crew | Len McCluskey | Comment is free | The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/mar/15/ba-strike-unite-willie-walsh?)
:ugh:

[cym]

Guardian - nothing like reporting on the facts - no mention about the offer by WW to extend strike deadine if no strike dates were announced?

Any comments from ' a guardian ppruner'????

[chrisbl]

LM is an idiot for sure and rewriting history to save his backside.

[SlideBustle]

I've volunteered to work on the strike and have been OK up 'til now but I must admit for some reason I now feel really :sad: about it all! I don't want to see the airline fall apart because of Unite and the militants so that's why I volunteered. But at the same time, I value my sanity and wellbeing.
I know I have as much a right to NOT strike as Unite members have a right to strike. No one has to strike, it is just the union (not our employer) has called a strike because of their stubborness.

I have read up all the support that BA has planned for us, which is very good. But I can't help thinking that BASSA will find out who strike somehow. Or some Unite thugs will be at where the bus/taxis/trains drop off and will see us! Or am I being paranoid?

Of course I am worried about the future and just really want an agreement to be reached soon. That protects us. This has been going on a whole year and now this. The public hate us because of Unite. And BA has spent thousands of pounds because of this strike. It is worrying that will we have to repay the cost of a strike.:rolleyes:

Oh well, I suppose no use worrying just have to support BA and hopefully everything will turn out OK! :confused:

[Ten West]

Oh well, I suppose no use worrying just have to support BA and hopefully everything will turn out OK!

Sounds like the best plan. It's BA that pays your wages after all. BASSA will have no hesitation in selling you out if it suits their own purposes as was pointed out in a post far more eloquent than mine a page or two back.

Good luck to all of you who are making your own decisions and not following the herd. :ok:

[STS]

Odd that someone posted the Dusseldorf schedule for the 20th - I happen to be on the Transavia flight. Trouble is, my return sector is canceled - and I'm guessing that's where it might get tricky for some pax. You can get out to where you want to go but when can you get back when you need to, and with rebooking how disruptive will it be and how many will just choose to cancel? Personally, I'm going to see if I can still make the trip because a-I need to go and b-I'd quite like to support the airline and the staff who really want to make sure they keep flying. I don't know what I'm going to get when I call them tomorrow to see what options there are, but from the perspective of a passenger, it's at least possible to see already if there's going to be disruption to your schedule and it gives us time to figure something out. Have to say, I just flew in from Frankfurt this evening and the staff I spoke to seemed to be in almost determined mood about this and proud of their company - definitely not a bunch of militants who want anyone to walk out on strike.

But, yes, as a passenger...looking through how organised the schedule is shaping up to be, I can't believe anyone would think WW isn't planning on toughing this out.

(On a tangent, I also heard the RMT is planning possible Easter strike action...I guess it's welcome to the pre-General Election ballgame.)

[Wheezyjet]

Don't worry Slidebustle. I and very many others will be working too. Be proud that you're standing up for our customers, our colleagues, our airline and ultimately ourselves. It's vital to stand up for what you think is right and I'll be honoured to see you there.

[HiFlyer14]

Slidebustle - it is perfectly normal to feel like that - this is a very scary situation that we have been put (absolutely unnecessarily) in.

But you don't need to worry. As you say, BA have put lots in place for us - so use it. The PCCC founder members are reporting for duty and we hope that lots of other crew will follow our lead. :ok:

As I understand it there will be lots of BA people around - probably to meet us off the buses/taxis/etc - just like when we moved into T5. At the PCCC we are working very hard behind the scenes (in between full-time flying:rolleyes:) to try and find out exactly where the picket lines will be etc. Keep an eye on our website over the coming days www.professionalcrewcouncil.com (http://www.professionalcrewcouncil.com). Our focus right now is supporting those crew, like us, who want to work.

I know it's is scary for some people and lots of crew are very, very frightened and confused. But if you want to work, then you absolutely must not let that fear deter you from doing so. Or else they have won. I will pm you and if you want I will meet you on Saturday and we can go in together.

This has all been totally avoidable and totally unnecessary. I hope that the Unite reps are hanging their head in shame. Unfortunately, they will probably be drafting another despicable letter like the one they have sent to the LGW crew. I feel a blame game coming on - "It's not our fault the strike didn't work - it was down to LGW crew".:=

I am BA cabin crew and this is my own viewpoint and not that of BA.

[DP.]

I know I have as much a right to NOT strike as Unite members have a right to strike.

SlideBustle, completely understandable you're worried, but think of it this way - judging from the post you are no longer a member of Unite, and therefore cannot take part in strike action anyway, without being in serious hot water.

As I say though, entirely understandable that you're concerned.

[Snas]

"Everybody has a right to choose."

So says the BASSA web site my friend. Enjoy your flight, pax will be very appreciative along with many of your co-workers.

Source (http://uniteba.com/COSTSAVINGTALKSPAGE2.html) You may have to hunt for it, and I may be quoting slightly out of context, but it is there :)

[Tiramisu]

What Willie Walsh said at today's employee forum
( your post #3048)
Carribean Boy,
A good summary of what Willie Walsh said at Waterside today.
I attended the forum and would like to add that he praised CC on more than one occasion. He said that BA had excellent CC and not to forget that, and many of them would be coming to work during the Strike days.
He also praised all BA employees in every department who have come together to support the airline.

Willie Walsh was on top form. He came across as passionate, determined, sincere and witty. One thing's for sure, 'this man's not for turning.'

I take it you were there too, and if I remember rightly you asked a question.
If it was you, you bought the house down and stole the show for a few moments!:)
You were very funny and if I may add, a very snappy dresser too!;)

I'm BA cabin crew and the above are my personal views and not those of my employer's.

[Tiramisu]

The PCCC really needs to get their proverbial in gear NOW


Re-Heat,
Thank you.:)
Please be assured we are trying our best between attending the forum at Waterside, coming to work, backing BA, and doing household chores!
Multi tasking at it's best, all in the day of a PCCC member!

[hellsbrink]

Or some Unite thugs will be at where the bus/taxis/trains drop off and will see us! Or am I being paranoid?


The way I see it is there will be no issue like that. BAA can have any "thugs" moved on or removed from LHR quite easily if they are outside the designated picket zones and I reckon there might just be more police around to make sure no "incidents" happen. Also, I doubt that even Bassa people are stupid enough to try anything like that because of the (further) negative publicity it would generate.

I wouldn't be too worried

[er340790]

You can't eat the cake and eat it too

Actually, I think you'll find you can. :} :} :}

[Vld1977]

Hiflyer14,

VLD1977 - thank you very much for your excellent contributions. I have two questions for you, please.

1. Where were you when we needed you?
2. Would you like to join the Professional Cabin Crew Council as an Associate Advisor? You can learn more about us here www.professionalcrewcouncil.com (http://www.professionalcrewcouncil.com)

http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gifhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/smile.gif

Unfortunately, I am not Cabin Crew. I also (with all due respect) don't agree with in-house sectorial unions who represent a department within a company. I believe in class unions who represent the employees in general. In my experience, this departamental associations end up fighting for their members' privileges, instead of their member's rights.

I said I didn't believe I was going to be very popular due to the aparent freedom of the anti-union sector, who are allowed to use words such as lefty morons, stupid, etc, and some of them even seem to have erotic dreams about cabin crew massive sackings and anti-union laws designed to allow companies to sack and publicly flog strikers. That's why I said it.

The hardcore anti-union sector should realise that unions are there to fight for employees' rights to fair T&Cs, not to exterminate management or to lead companies to bankrupcy. People like Winch-Control should not have this cravings for unlimited market rates for T&Cs, especially in a pilots' forum, as there are hordes of thousands of surplus and unemployed student pilots ready to work for free and even pay for work. If total market freedom existed, the pilots' rate would be extremely affected.

Just don't follow any union "leader" if they are not working for your benefit, but for theirs, but unions are necessary in this society. Otherwise it would be a slow and gradual shift to half slavery.

[HasFlyed]

Vld1977

Thank you for your far sighted posts. They, (slightly), restore some missing balance here.:ok:

[ChicoG]

Unite joint general secretary Tony Woodley said (last night) that if BA reinstated last week’s offer “there would be no reason why the strikes could not be suspended”.

Which begs the question, given that the option to call a strike was always available, why do it when you knew it would result in the offer being removed, when you had three weeks to make a decision?

It would have been reasonable and, dare I say, sensible to ask the members to vote on the BA offer before deciding to call them out.

Which I'm afraid simply convinces me that BASSA and UNITE did not want their members to see this offer.

They probably know it would have been accepted.

And a large portion of their membership would probably ask, given that the deal looks much the same as a year ago, (in fact, is it actually slightly worse than what BA initially offered?) what the :mad: hell are they actually getting for their 15 quid a month?

Get the truth out there; why would anyone want to strike when they are being used in such a deceitful and disgusting manner?

[circuitbreaker13]

VLD 1977


Just don't follow any union "leader" if they are not working for your benefit, but for theirs, but unions are necessary in this society. Otherwise it would be a slow and gradual shift to half slavery.

Dear VLD1977,

I agree with you but how do you see the fact that the more the unions fight for t&c's for BA crew the more people will have to work t&c's with company's not having unions to represent them.

So the more Unite fight for BA crew the more Easyjet and Ryanair will gain pax and have cabin crew work at far worse conditions.

I would say if the unions really have cabin crew stakes at heart they would try to get a foothold at those companys that forbid their crew to be represented by a union.

But then again maybe you can share your opinion about that with me?

[Juan Tugoh]

I think the reason that the strike was called was just poor judgment. Unite were trying to find a way out of this mess. Derek Simpson asked Willie Walsh for an extension to the strike mandate to allow the members to ballot on BA's final offer. WW agreed contingent on a no strike deal.

Len McClusky, seeing an opportunity to position himself as a union strong man prior to the election of General Secretary of Unite decided to announce strikes anyway. He also announced the BA offer would be put to crew, though not recommended.

Knowing that crew would probably accept the offer, McClusky gambled that Willie Walsh would let the process continue as the result of the consultative ballot "by electronic" means would be in prior to the strikes and so Mr McClusky could announce that the offer had been accepted. He would then have appeared to be both a Union strong man and also a reasonable negotiator. Unite walk away head held high as a union with BASSA intact and Len gets his boost for General Secretary.

Oops Len Misjudged horribly!

[From Tunbridge Wells]

Lenin said "A lie told often enough becomes the truth" and I suspect this has happened over the last year.
Has it has got to the point where a sort of mass brain-washing has taken place where it doesn't seem to matter what anyone says and the truth is rather inconvenient?

[Max Tow]

BA would be mad to accept a mere suspension - the strike threat has been playing havoc with the Company's business since late 2009 and in the few days since strike dates were declared the expense has increased massively with the loss of bookings, flight cancellations/refund of fares, and subcharter contracts. Unite is headed for disaster and it knows it - if indeed BA were willing to re-table the offer without deducting the costs since initial rejection, it should be on the basis of Unite recommending acceptance. These people have had their clodhoppers on BA's jugular for far too long and with or without the union calling off the strike, I suspect the matter will be over by this time next week.
Like many, I have been greatly impressed by WW's leadership in recent weeks. This bodes well - it is no coincidence that BA's stature was highest and its staff proudest during the strong governance last experienced under King & Marshall. Unfortunately since then we have had weak CEOs who have been more inclined to tinker or attempt to bottle up fundamental problems during their tenures, and the Company has sunk into a degree of mediocrity as a result, along with staff pride. Hopefully BA is about to enter the 21st century, albeit a decade late.

[BlueUpGood]

BA putting an offer back on the table is not going to happen I'm afraid.

Option 1: BA do nothing and the strike is over by Sat pm. BASSA destroyed.

Option 2: BASSA (UNITE) make a total and catastrophic climb down and call off the strike with no offer from BA. BASSA destroyed.

For BA this is largely nothing to do with T&C's now. BASSA must be taken out, and never allowed to hijack BA again. Period. And so it will be...

[Juan Tugoh]

It is not just pilots released from fleets not flying during the strike but also baggage handlers, check-in agents, engineers etc in fact staff from all departments in BA. It is also important to remember those cabin crew not striking - they will be the back bone of the crew operating over the strike periods, providing essential experience and guidance for the volunteers, without them this would be very difficult for BA.

If BASSA had played this more honestly and had a genuine dispute with the company, with the "overwhelming" support claimed by UNITE then this strike would would be very different. But as they have lied and connived. misrepresented and sniped, used holocaust iconography and just played it dumb, they have created the situation whereby they cannot win this strike and may well have doomed themselves to be a vastly reduced influence on BA operations.

[Safety Concerns]

I do feel people should just have a little think before posting some of the more hysterical comments about strikes and the effects on passengers.

Striking is a legitimate tool to be used when a dispute cannot be solved. The natural consequences of striking are that customers or a business will be severely disrupted. Thats the whole point. You cannot strke without consequence just as you can't drop bombs without explosions. If you could you would be wasting your time.

The point I want to make is that comments about the effects of striking serve no purpose. The discussion should remain focussed on the merits of the action itself.

[Diplome]

Safety Concerns:

I would respectfully disagree with your statement that the comments about the effect of a strike serve no purpose.

In fact, the effects of a strike action are central to the concerns of BA employees and stockholders.

You are correct in that maximum disruption of service is the hoped for effect of BASSA's actions. However, they are not immune from critical commentary regarding the result of their actions.

[nurjio]

Safety Concerns - you may be wrong with your bomb analogy. For a bomb to go off it requires a fuse to function correctly. There are, of course, consequences precipitated by (strike) actions, but in this case, Mr Walsh has cleverly set in motion a train of events that will probably render UNITE's fuse inoperable- therefore the BASSA bomb will go..... 'phut'. The football field, at Hatton Cross, will be a peculiar place as many BA jets stream overhead. Rest assured the spirit on that pitch will be bitter/vitriolic/hysterical, whilst the spirit 'at work' will be one of solidarity behind Mr Walsh's plans to ensure BA's survival. His strategy, IMHO, will work and, BASSA's 'hold' over the company will be severly weakened after all of this is over.

nurj

[ChicoG]

Striking is a legitimate tool to be used when a dispute cannot be solved.

It seems to me this dispute could easily have been solved, once BA's offer was received, between the two parties affected: BA Cabin Crew and BA.

The fact that certain idiots in BASSA and UNITE have paid no heed to the interests or desires of their members and have royally :mad: things up, you can argue that they are now calling a strike which is legal, but good luck trying to convince people that it's "legitimate".

:hmm:

[Litebulbs]

The Times is reporting 1100 cancellations. I feel some more defusing needs to happen.

[Ruthanne]

A question Are any of the sides speaking about ending this dispute yet?
Or is it all systems go for disruption, because whatever way you look at it,
and fair play to BA for getting 60 percent of the flights away....what about the forty per cent whose travel plans will be a no go?

I truly hope its settled sooner rather than later

[Snas]

A question Are any of the sides speaking about ending this dispute yet?
Or is it all systems go for disruption

This has become rather political now, and a week is a loooong time in politics, so we shall have to wait and see what is what really.

[nurjio]

A week is a looooong time, but you can't just switch an airline off, then on, then to 60%. I would submit that given that BA has gone public with Saturday's plan, the momentum is now so large towards mitigating strikers that even if there was a 'last minute' capitulation- it's too late, Saturday, Sunday, Monday and on, is now beyond recovery. The 'Walsh-Meister' continues to stare, 'unblinkingly', at Looney Len and Malone. The majority of BA employees are ready to 'do what it takes' to keep this great company flying in the face of some mis-guided, (very) left wing agenda fixers.

nurj

[nurjio]

Ahem , with respect Safety, a good many CC have no idea about the consequences of striking - BASSA propaganda has seen to that.

IMHO, there is no 'rock solid' reason why this nonsense is going on - other than a power agenda peddled by the Looney Left - the last bastions of 'up the worker' clinging on to a notion that they are the heroes defending workers rights. Len McCluckle and Woodley (ship's steward initially?) are hard-nosed, uber left-wing scouse dockers for goodness sake. Their 'macho posturing' has reached a point where their only chance is to try to defend the relatively 'soft and fluffy' environment of CC, and all in a very disturbing way. Even TCGB disagrees

nurj.

Edited to add - nothing wrong with dockers per se, just these two

[From Tunbridge Wells]

The cabin crew just like every other worker within BA will be aware of the consequences of their actions. I honestly don't believe they are. The threat of staff travel being permanently removed is met with " that's one of the first things that we'll get back when negotiations continue"

This drip feeding of drivel they're being fed is damaging and dangerous. I honestly believe that the old adage isn't true when it comes to representation in the best interests of crew - you can fool most of the people most of the time.

I hope and pray people will start finally thinking for themselves and stop seeing themselves as the victims their representatives would have them believe they are.

[Snas]

For the masochists amongst you The Guardian has a live updating feed on the strike and surrounding issues: - BA strike build-up: live updates | News | guardian.co.uk (http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/blog/2010/mar/16/ba-strike-build-up-live)


Enjoy each and every gruesome detail as it happens – oh what a wonderful age we live in where this appears to be the build up in a prize fight ...!

[Landroger]

I have only been able to hear part of each of the several interviews broadcast on BBC R4 yesterday, but from what I did hear, neither the Unite officers nor the BBC interviewers seemed to know as much as been available on here. For example, if what Carribean Boy reported, now supported by Tiramisu, about what WW was saying at the forum yesterday is true – and why should it not be? – then the behaviour of Unite/McKlusky et al is not only incomprehensible, but possibly actionable. Given the political situation, they should have seen it all coming, but they didn’t.

In radio interviews, all the Unite officers pressed the point about two ballots, each being ‘overwhelming support’ for Industrial Action, although little else. Fair enough, but voting ‘yes’ didn’t make the reasons for IA right or legitimate. Eighty or ninety percent support of something you don’t clearly understand is almost worthless. Is anyone sure that the vast majority of BA CC actually understood what they were voting for? I don’t think they were, not really.

How many posters on here – presumably pilots – have said they had spoken to their crews about the dispute and been shocked and worried by the level of ignorance of the facts? BASSA’s tactic of spinning everything, being ‘economical’ with any company truths and simply blaming everything from Aer Lingus and BA losses to low birth weight babies on Willie Walsh has finally come home to roost.

From what our most erudite CC posters on here – Glamgirl and Ottergirl to name only two, there are many, many others - are saying about talking to frightened and confused Cabin Crew, over the last week or so, it is likely that the level of understanding, because of BASSA rhetoric, is terrifyingly poor.

From just the posts this morning, I have to say I think Safety Concerns, Diplome and Nurjio are all correct in their analysis, although each with a slightly different emphasis. Like the beginning of the first World War, it is probably too late to stop at least the first tranche of IA and from an objective point of view, not even in BA’s interest to do so – unless they are compelled to do so from above.

Roger.

[The SSK]

Workers of the world unite - you have nothing to lose but your chains

The ITF’s Civil Aviation Section today reported rising support for the British Airways cabin crew industrial action from their colleagues around the world.

Gabriel Mocho, ITF Civil Aviation Section Secretary stated: “The ITF supports the cabin crew and Bassa/Unite in this dispute. In particular we commend the efforts they have made to find a solution to a conflict which began with the company’s apparent imposition of new working conditions while negotiations were still open.”

“Unfortunately BA management demonstrated their seeming indifference to the deteriorating situation on Friday when they withdrew an offer that might have solved the dispute.”

He continued: “Several unions have already contacted us with messages of support for the cabin crew, together with pledges to provide practical lawful assistance where possible. Unite members have been quick to show solidarity with their colleagues around the world in the past, and they now want to return the favour.”

262 aviation worker trade unions in 123 countries are members of the ITF (International Transport Workers’ Federation).

[Diplome]

Snas:

Thank you for the link. Will make interesting reading as this situation progresses.

Interesting in that this morning I was thinking of the impact the change in how we receive our news, where we receive our news, and our ability to quickly access information has made this situation much more difficult for groups like Unite/BASSA during times such as these.

Unite/BASSA spokespeople can state something time and time again but there are always those who will quickly correct, and the incorrect message no longer sits for a day soaking in until tomorrow's newspapers arrive.

It certainly reinforces the need for organizations to speak carefully and accurately or risk looking foolish.

[Two-Tone-Blue]

Question - would a global CC strike be categorised as secondary action? ;)

[Tiramisu]

The majority of BA employees are ready to 'do what it takes' to keep this great company flying in the face of some mis-guided, (very) left wing agenda fixers


And that we will.

For those in doubt, the PCCC members will be flying on all Strike days. So why not come and joins us in CRC and Jubilee House.
Coming to work isn't that bad you know, you get paid. But in not turning up, no one knows what the consequences will be.
Though right now I am prepared to work for free in Backing BA on all strike days to get our passengers from A to B.

PS: Nurjio, I love your bomb analogy, very funny indeed especially the 'phut' bit!

I'm BA cabin crew and the above are my personal thoughts and not those of BA.

[Diplome]

Workers of the world unite - you have nothing to lose but your chains



Well, that and Staff Travel benefits. :)

[DP.]

The ITF’s Civil Aviation Section today reported rising support for the British Airways cabin crew industrial action from their colleagues around the world.

Nice and easy to offer 'support' when you don't actually have to put anything on the line to do so.

[TightSlot]

I'm BA cabin crew and the above are my personal thoughts and not those of BA.

Tiramisu and the others - Please stop appending this to your posts: It is meaningless on an anonymous internet forum, and therefore irritating.

[Snas]

Diplome, your comments regarding news are spot on. I’m very much a news junkie and would certainly agree that BASSA, in particular, need to learn some hard lessons about the way information is managed for their future. (Assuming they have one)

The fact that they use terms such as “private Facebook” speaks volumes as to their ignorance. Did they also not hang themselves with a single post from Malone on their “private” web forum?

Malone’s amazing Foxtrot Oscar communications to BALPA are now a matter of historical record and will remain forever. Gone are the days of writing a snotty letter that would have travelled no further that a few offices in distance at most. She thought it in LA, pressed send, and we were all reading it before she even had time to reconsider what she had written even if she had wanted to....

I’m far from convinced that the Unite and BASSA web page would have carried the details of the BA (now withdrawn) proposal were it not for the fact that it was out there anyway? –perhaps-

There are many, many lessons for all TU’s to learn from this affair, new communications rules are just one of them, let’s hope they learn them.

[JayPee28bpr]

The ITF’s Civil Aviation Section today reported rising support for the British Airways cabin crew industrial action from their colleagues around the world.

Gabriel Mocho, ITF Civil Aviation Section Secretary stated: “The ITF supports the cabin crew and Bassa/Unite in this dispute. In particular we commend the efforts they have made to find a solution to a conflict which began with the company’s apparent imposition of new working conditions while negotiations were still open.”

“Unfortunately BA management demonstrated their seeming indifference to the deteriorating situation on Friday when they withdrew an offer that might have solved the dispute.”

He continued: “Several unions have already contacted us with messages of support for the cabin crew, together with pledges to provide practical lawful assistance where possible. Unite members have been quick to show solidarity with their colleagues around the world in the past, and they now want to return the favour.”

262 aviation worker trade unions in 123 countries are members of the ITF (International Transport Workers’ Federation).


Thanks for posting this. It could have been lifted straight out of The Life of Brian!!!

[Tiramisu]

Tiramisu and the others - Please stop appending this to your posts: It is meaningless on an anonymous internet forum, and therefore irritating


Tightslot,
Apologies if you do find it irritating, I realise it has been mentioned by the mods previously.
As BA CC we are only doing what we've been advised to by BA in an email to all of us.
Sadly, it's not as anonymous as it is, some posters know who we are and in posting on a public forum, caution has to be exercised.
However point taken and will edit accordingly.

[JayPee28bpr]

...you transport 60% of passengers whilst only operating 43% of flights.

BA Goes High-Density on Seating, Scraps Hot Food to Beat Strike - Bloomberg.com (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=akWYHXXTuTDw&pos=9)

I'm not sure if you can just extrapolate, and say 100% of passengers can be moved on ~65% of flights, but that's the implication at least.

[chickenfeed]

You can carry 60% of your pax on 43% of your flights if not all your aircraft are the same size...

Just fly the bigger ones - which is exactly what BA are planning to do!

[sixmilehighclub]

Chickenfeed - Is that definite?

[chickenfeed]

If you mean prioritising longhaul flights - then clearly yes. 100% at LGW, full 777 fleet plus some 747s at LHR.

[PaddyMiguel]

This has become rather political now, and a week is a loooong time in politics, so we shall have to wait and see what is what really.

And BBC deputy political editor James Landale said:

Privately senior Labour sources are distancing themselves from the strike, claiming that it is being driven by the British Airlines Stewards and Stewardesses Association rather than the Unite leadership.

[Litebulbs]

And BBC deputy political editor James Landale said:

Interesting how the man at the top and the transport boss engaged rather than distanced however.

[PaddyMiguel]

The Guardian reports:An anonymous group of BA cabin crew has written to Willie Walsh, BA's chief executive, and the prime minister and his transport secretary to protest at misconception about the strike. Here's the full text of the letter

Dear Mr. Walsh, Mr. Brown and Lord Adonis.Firstly, our congratulations, you have almost pulled it off - for different reasons of course but essentially, when it comes down to it, the same reason - self aggrandisement.Mr. Walsh, you have successfully hijacked the spirit of British Airways and made it all about you and you alone, whilst Mr. Brown and Lord Adonis to your shame, you have unquestioningly gone along with it. There can be no other way than Mr. Walsh's. Forget the fact that many cabin crew have worked proudly for this airline for ten, twenty, thirty or even forty years; that whole families have followed in this profession of serving passengers though generations.We were here before you came Mr. Walsh and we will be here when you have moved on.You may have been CEO through the worst headlines that BA has ever endured - numerous price fixing scandals and T5 disasters, but it is the almost clandestine move of charging British Airways' customers a premium price whilst delivering a low cost service that will be your lasting legacy.Far from keeping the flag flying, under your stewardship Mr. Walsh, our airline has become a faded and tattered version of itself.The media that cheer your iron fisted, jingoistic approach to staff relations will perhaps discover your real motives; as the high standards of service that British Airways prides itself on are allowed to dwindle away in the pursuit of lower costs.Again, shame on you Mr. Brown and Lord Adonis for choosing to be so ill-informed regarding the real reasons for our dispute, and equally for buying into that same myth for your own political ends. The general election is due to be called on one of our strike dates and in a moral panic, without even bothering to look beyond the headlines and find out what really this is all about, you both leapt enthusiastically and cynically on the bandwagon of criticism.After thirteen years in power you both finally choose to face down and condemn "union power". Except you got it wrong; this is not a hotbed of irresponsible left- wing militants trying to bring down an airline, but a predominantly female, professional and loyal, family orientated, middle England and middle class workforce, desperately trying to save it.So bravo chaps.And the worse thing? You all know this, but it suits your different aims to allow decent, hard working, caring people to be falsely demonized in this way.We know the good job that we do for our airline, and our customers appreciate the way we look after them; we don't want to strike nor do we want to inconvenience a single customer, but we feel that we have been left with no other way to get our voices heard.The campaign against cabin crew is helping British Airways to adopt a service style synonymous with our current cheerless CEO. We don't want that; we want to be proud to do the job that we love. We want to be able to say, "yes we can" and "hope you enjoyed your flight", not spend the whole flight apologising for ill thought through cost cutting measures. We want to come to work without fear and with pride once again.We firmly believe that it is cabin crew who truly fly the flag for our airline - and yes, with a smile, not a sneer.Sincerely,British Airways Cabin Crew

[Middy]

This has got to be a wind up. Over 40,000 people " truly fly the flag for our airline " and of those 40,000 most have accepted changes to their working practices, pay cuts etc in order that 40,000 people will STILL be employed in years to come. The reason staff have backed BA over this is because most of us need and want to have a job.

[PaddyMiguel]

Interesting how the man at the top and the transport boss engaged rather than distanced however.

I think they engaged and then distanced, Litebulbs.

Edited to add "He who fights and runs away, lives to fight another day"

[Pornpants1]

There are indeed big divisions within UNITE. The strike is being driven by BASSA, and BASSA alone, with the help of one high profile UNITE official who still believes he can make a name for himself out of all this mess............... whilst everyone else in UNITE is ducking for cover, or as we have seen in the last couple of days doing everything in their power to undermine BASSA.

Perhaps BASSA can answer this question...... where exactly are you going to picket/ bully/ intimidate on Saturday????

[Snas]

where exactly are you going to picket

Hatton Cross Tube and roundabout (Junction with Viscount Way) I believe are two of 5 official locations, with the strike HQ being located on a football pitch about 1/4 mile south of there on Halton Road.

Disclaimer -- I read this yesterday but buggered if I can remember where - I could have dreamt it even...!

Late edit - apparently I was dreaming - ignore me, I do :uhoh:

[AtlasDrawer]

Pornpants1 (love the name!)

There is some kind of gathering at the Bedfont Football club on day one of the strike. It seems there are a lot of people making arrangements to meet up there on Saturday (on BF).

A rather unusual location, IMHO. I thought that something may have been organised at the Unite HQ on that Bath road. But I may have missed something.

Anyone else know anything?

[sidtheesexist]

Landroger - in your last post you express concern at how many of the CC might be ignorant of the facts relating to this dispute. You are right to be concerned. I still hear CC going on about the way they ( as a working group within BA) are being 'picked on ' and 'victimised' . It's quite ludicrous really the misconception that many seem to be under........The look on their faces when you (as a BA FO)explain that you're 250 quid worse off per mth for the last 3mths!!!!!!!!!

You also refer to some of the CC posters on here being very 'erudite'. Well that doesn't preclude them from being completely misguided on certain issues - i.e. their self-worth. Remember, Ottergirl believes it is totally correct that senior cabin crew can be worth more than junior First Officers!!!!!! I won't revisit the obvious reasons why this is ludicrous, but suffice it to say that this is the sort of mindset the company are up against.

And Mods - I'm sorry but I think this is relevant because these sorts of attitudes (I'm worth far more than I actually am) lead to a distorted perception of the stark reality and are therefore, bound to be a huge hindrance to change.

The good times for the senior crew on the old contracts are OVER. They know it and are finding it very, very difficult to accept. SIMPLES

[Pornpants1]

Sorry snas and Atlasdraw.

I know where the picket lines are going to be, and its not going to be in any areas that are important, I was just wondering why BASSA had not told their members that they were not going to marching up and down T5 chanting disparaging slogans at those crew electing to work:ok: I imagine some may feel very disappointed .

[Landroger]

I’m sorry Sid, but I’m not clear on the meaning of the final sentence of your first paragraph. Certainly there have been plenty of posts that, if true, demonstrate that many crew really are unaware of what appear to be the facts. BASSA and even Unite are relentlessly pursuing the line; ‘there is no financial crisis at BA – they are well in profit, just hiding it.’

The erudition of those mentioned is entirely based on the way they appear to assemble their facts and report findings in a clear, concise manner. I know there are ‘anomalies’ in relative pay, to put it at its mildest. However, arriving at any firm figures, one way or another, is a technicality way above my pay grade and I'm mostly exercised by the ‘Spanish Practices’ I understand are Willie Walsh’s primary target? Situations as where BA no longer fly the Prime Minister and entourage, because it takes a Pilot, a First Officer and thirty crew in three groups to cover the various sectors.

I still think that much of the animosity, confusion and utter waste of time and money, is because BASSA have been entirely successful in getting the greater body of crew to believe exactly what BASSA want them to believe.

Roger.

[AtlasDrawer]

I know where the picket lines are going to be, and its not going to be in any areas that are important, I was just wondering why BASSA had not told their members that they were not going to marching up and down T5 chanting disparaging slogans at those crew electing to workhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif I imagine some may feel very disappointed


I know, I said to my friend 'You will not be allowed to picket inside T5' and he was quite shocked and said 'Where is it going to be then?' I went on to explain that you need BAA permission to do things like that in their terminal. Does anyone remember the Green protest a few years ago at LHR and how much security was around - you could hardly go anywhere around LHR without seeing some kind of security presence.

I have noted that BASSA is not exactly advertising the fact that they will not be allowed to picket inside T5. One of the reasons could be that crew are scared to cross a picket line and so may stay away from work and go on strike. Because, for me, one of the major concerns I have is people being able to go into work if they wish to.

What does everyone else think?

[Ruthanne]

I just read the latest posting on Unites site regarding the meeting that was supposed to have happened at ACAS 's request on Sunday!
They deny it completely!!!

Who tells the truth???

[Bill of the Hamptons]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00697/TTM162101CC-copy-14_697478a.jpg

[Snas]

I just read the latest posting on Unites site regarding the meeting that was supposed to have happened at ACAS 's request on Sunday!
They deny it completely!!!

Who tells the truth???


Does this help - crossed lines of communication perhaps. It does happen, even to ACAS maybe?
Unite: Failure To Attend BA Dispute Talks At ACAS Are False (http://www.advfn.com/news_Unite-Failure-To-Attend-BA-Dispute-Talks-At-ACAS-Are-False_41992263.html)

[wascrew]

what will the picket line be doing?


sat 20th march

Bedfont Sports FC v Knaphill


3pm kick off

Come along and show your support!!

[Snas]

Would be amusing Wascrew, but it looks like they have two pitches I'm afraid, unless Google earth is mistaken..

I think it's just a rally point anyway, I cant see them standing about on a pitch all day, there is perhaps a function room there. Who knows?

[Two-Tone-Blue]

It's all about communications.

On the web, at one end we have PPRuNe [The Telegraph?] and at the other we have BASSA [The Sun?]. Sun readers don't read, or believe, the Torygraph and vice versa. As a result, the majority of people choose to read what they choose to believe. It's a simple as that.

You could stuff some trade unionists with a year's supply of the Torygraph, but they would never accept it as truth. And it works the other way too. It's a basic fact of life.

As to allegations of lies, distortions, exaggerations, dissing the opposition and all the other stuff being thrown around ... that's exactly what ALL your elected representatives in Parliament did to get there in the first place, assisted by their loyal Party workers who sang from the same hymn sheet.

Frustratingly, it's called democracy. Only when the votes are finally counted [in this case on the strike days] do you ever know whether your "communications" were good enough.

[dwshimoda]

...and the share price keeps on rising. It's clear to see how the City have predicted this to work out.

Great for my company as we have several AC heading to LHR on Fri night. The only possible losers here are BA CC.

And to the moderates of you I am genuinely concerned. The militant minority, led by the blinkered, self serving few, will screw you.

My only hope is that WW recognises the worth of the decent crew, and rewards you by leaving you on present T's & C's (crew complement reduction exempted) as it would appear he always wanted.

BASSA reps should hang their heads in shame.

[wascrew]

'Unite' Union to Change Name to 'Destroy' (http://www.dailysquib.co.uk/?c=117&a=2194)

[Snas]

When it comes to the public perception the shame for me is that Unite's name is so well known in connection with this issue whilst BASSA lurks somewhere well out of view.

I would be surprised if 1 in 10 members of the public could tell you who BASSA were.

[binsleepen]

Looks like the pension might be sorted which is why the share price is up so much.



LONDON, March 16 (Reuters) - British Airways said it had reached agreement with trade unions on the future of its pension scheme, the first step in addressing its yawning pension deficit.
The news sent shares in the airline up 3.7 percent by 1543 GMT.
BA said on Tuesday that the proposals, whereby members would raise their contributions to maintain their existing benefits, would maintain the airline's current contributions at 330 million pounds ($495 million) a year and avoid the closure of the schemes.
However, the proposals will still need to be accepted by the trustees and the pensions regulator. BA is due to present a recovery plan to the regulator by the end of June.
In December, the company announced its pension deficit had ballooned to 3.7 billion pounds, more than double the amount from a year earlier.
The deal is unrelated to the separate dispute BA is having with the Unite trade union over pay and staffing levels. Most BA cabin crew are planning seven days of strikes before Easter, which has political ramifications in Britain, where a general election must be held by June.

Obviously a larger personal contribution means less money in your pocket at the end of the month.

Regards

[Ancient Observer]

McCluskey has Risen Without Trace within Unite.

If he wants to get elected, he needs to get his name known to the 1.6 million TU members that have never heard of him.

His sole interest in this dispute is in getting his name known.

The Unite TU members won't know many of the candidates, but they WILL vote for someone they have heard of - not caring about his politics.

As I've said before, his care for BA CC is less than zero - he's using this dispute to get his name known.

(There is some even more boring inter-TU stuff about Len wanting Unite to adopt the G & M strategy of being a "campaigning Union", but you don't want to be bored by that.)

BA CC are being used as part of his publicity and "campaigning".

[ltn and beyond]

With the cabin crew strike starting this weekend, and staff travel being revoked for those taking part in industrial action, then this week will be the end of staff travel for Miss Malone and all the Bassa reps as they will all be striking.

Or will they all be going sick and changing rosters to keep their staff travel and let the troops lose theirs???. :confused:

I hope we don't find its the latter !!!!!

[617sqn]

If Lizanne is off sick she cannot use staff travel.As soon as you phone in sick that is taken away from you.

[Caribbean Boy]

Juan Tugoh (http://www.pprune.org/members/88204-juan-tugoh) wrote:
I think the reason that the strike was called was just poor judgment. Unite were trying to find a way out of this mess. Derek Simpson asked Willie Walsh for an extension to the strike mandate to allow the members to ballot on BA's final offer. WW agreed contingent on a no strike deal.

Len McClusky, seeing an opportunity to position himself as a union strong man prior to the election of General Secretary of Unite decided to announce strikes anyway. He also announced the BA offer would be put to crew, though not recommended.

Knowing that crew would probably accept the offer, McClusky gambled that Willie Walsh would let the process continue as the result of the consultative ballot "by electronic" means would be in prior to the strikes and so Mr McClusky could announce that the offer had been accepted. He would then have appeared to be both a Union strong man and also a reasonable negotiator. Unite walk away head held high as a union with BASSA intact and Len gets his boost for General Secretary. I have another view of this.

McCluskey always wanted a strike, this is evident after Unite's failed high court action to declare the imposed crew cuts as illegal. It mattered not at all that judge Sir Christopher Holland wrote in his judgement: "... if the new complements materially and fairly contribute to the preservation of BA and more importantly for present purposes job security and pay, how can I condemn the less than extreme changes as unreasonable?"

Unite was going to recommend to cabin crew on their consultative ballot that BA's last proposal be rejected. It is likely that CC would have followed this recommendation, especially as they would have had only a few days at best to consider the proposal.

I believe that McCluskey reckons that the strikes will seriously weaken BA and Willie Walsh, forcing BA back to the negotiating table. Unite could then force BA to reinstate much of the cabin crew cuts.

McCluskey would then be a hero to cabin crew and the Labour movement, which won't do his CV any harm in his bid to become the general secretary of Unite.

[binsleepen]

Harriett Harman (the wife of UNITE assistant general secretary Jack Dromey) on CH 4 news has just agreed with TCGB that the UNITE strike is shameful and disproportionate.

They are going to have fun at dinner this evening.:)

[Re-Heat]

I don't see exactly how known and active reps who call a strike could possibly avoid losing staff travel, regardless of whether they are actually on days off, or failing to report for duty due to striking.

Unless they take a public course of action to break the strike, I don't expect they will have staff travel beyond Friday night.

[M.Mouse]

I don't know the real reasons but after the last CC dispute where Unite effectively pulled the rug from under BASSA's feet and agreed a deal with BA BASSA then made a rule change which made it impossible for that to happen again and a strike can only be called or called off by BASSA.

My suspicion is that Unite realise they are all in a hole and would NOT have announced strike dates but that BASSA, run by some very unpleasant individuals wishing to give WW a bloody nose, went ahead and announced strike dates thereby scuppering any deal.

I doubt WW is that bothered because by thwarting a strike he will have been seen to have truly trounced the union and achieved his goals at the same time.

The pilots naively believe that because some of them are volunteering as CC that they will be treated extra well by WW. If they believe that they will believe anything. WW saw off the BALPA in the courts over OpenLies and this whole business will come back to bite them very hard indeed.

Watch this space.

[ChicoG]

Certainly union members know more about the status of their own reps.

As do BA, and if BASSA are right about BA leaking information, then shortly thereafter it is likely that the Daily Mail will know as well.

I'd like to think so. Any rep caught trying to sneak into work or feign illness deserves to be named and shamed.

[Juan Tugoh]

Hi Caribbean Boy,

you may well be right. The thing we both seem to agree on is that this is about how Len McClusky is using the BASSA strike action to position himself for the coming election for General Secretary of UNITE. Whether he actually believes the BS he is peddling is a matter of conjecture, but this is certainly naked ambition dressed up as something else entirely.

[Nutjob]

M.Mouse

The pilots naively believe that because some of them are volunteering as CC that they will be treated extra well by WW. If they believe that they will believe anything. WW saw off the BALPA in the courts over OpenLies and this whole business will come back to bite them very hard indeed.


Really? The ones I've spoken to actually have quite a good handle on how some of this may impact their future disagreements with BA. For example, if they can remove our ST if we strike, then they can do the same to Flight Crew. However, they are volunteering because they believe it's:

a) Necessary to help ensure the survival of BA
and / or
b) BASSA's actions are not appropriate or proportionate

None that I know expect BA to "owe them one".

[jetpack2]

Hi Mickey Mouse,
The pilots don't think they'll be treated 'extra well', they are doubly hacked off at BASSA and UNITE because we can see they are weakening all unions position through their idiocy.
The VCC just want to have an airline to work for in the future.
If the C/C want the same, and I think they do, then the only way I can see for them to regain BA and themselves some credibility, and create a positive impression, is to turn up for work and show that the union does NOT represent the general view.
The less crew at the football match, and the more at T5 and Jubilee, the better for us all - there may even be some positive press comment for a change!
:ok:

[wiggy]

The pilots naively believe that because some of them are volunteering as CC that they will be treated extra well by WW

Believe or not the pilots at BA are not that stupid. They are well aware that
the management will no doubt be demanding change of them (again) in the future, but they feel if they ( and others) don't volunteer there won't be a future for BA.

[juniorjetclub]

Guys (and Gals), don't be decieved.

Miss Malone doesn't give a stuff about her staff travel.

Remember that as a paid-up member of BASSAs ruling elite, she probably has the union buying her a full-fare ticket whenever she come to do 'union business'. All she has to do is combine her 'union business' with a trip the day before/afterwards and hey presto, she can still keep her lifestyle in LA without a care in the world for all the unfortunate CC that she, and the rest of the shameful BASSA leadership, have lead down the garden path.

[Meal Chucker]

Are cabin crew justified in striking?

Vote at the following link -

Poll | Are BA staff right to strike? | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/poll/2010/mar/15/tradeunions-britishairways)

[lewseyk]

Did anyone listen to it today? They had Mark Abelyard (sp?), a BASSA rep talking on the show today.

He rattled off the Union take on the strike, but also added that the stike was not only about imposition, but New Fleet - which I found quite interesting.

He also questioned Jeremy Vine on the pension deficit figures, and appeared to be in denial about how bad they were.

There was also talk that the removal of staff travel amounted to technical dismal as so many staff depend on it to get to work and this would be illegal in the UK.

[Litebulbs]

At least it helps you make a choice on where you look for unbiased (well, I suppose I am a tad biased too) reporting!

BA Strike May Ruin Welsh Youth Wind Band's New York Concert Dream | Home | Sky News (http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/BA-Strike-May-Ruin-Welsh-Youth-Wind-Bands-New-York-Concert-Dream/Article/201003315574649?lpos=Home_First_Home_Article_Teaser_Region_7&lid=ARTICLE_15574649_BA_Strike_May_Ruin_Welsh_Youth_Wind_Ban ds_New_York_Concert_Dream)

Now, this is more like it -

BA: take war to Willie Walsh|20Mar10|Socialist Worker (http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=20615)

[LD12986]

BBC News is reporting that Unite is meeting with the Teamsters union in the US to see how they can support Unite during the strike.

[Pornpants1]

BBC News is reporting that Unite is meeting with the Teamsters union in the US to see how they can support Unite during the strike.

Window dressing! UNITE know they have no support in the UK from any quarter, so they distract the membership by heading off on a nice little junket:ok:

[Hot Wings]

Hopefully the Teamsters will give them the same support that BASSA gave them during the US hotel employees strike a few years ago - a load of complaints about all the fuss and noise disturbing their rest and pickets getting in their way as they struggled back to the hotel weighed down with shopping bags. :mad:

[HasFlyed]

Wherever I have gone I have found communities of expats, It is easier to identify groups of people living together on the other side of the planet from where they all consider home. In fact, if you take a closer look wherever you are, you will find groups of like minded folk who seek each other out, (even after work), and provide each other with mutual support. It is natural, inevitable, comfortable and very human. Of course, this also goes on in the world of work.
It is comfortable to be in your own group. You share so much: experiences, jokes, shared hate-figures, even often a shared vocabulary. Groups at work are even more homogenous than others in some ways because they are doubly selected. 1) They select their area of work because they find it attractive. 2) They are selected by an employer looking for a particular skill set.
. The above applies to the BA Cabin Crew. They have been together for a long time, (some of them a very long time), and they have collectively learned that IA (the old fashioned 70’s type), works for them.
Now Pilots, remember your CRM? Remember “confirmation bias”? – We look for information that confirms that we are getting it RIGHT. And tend to dismiss information that says we are getting it wrong. (c.f. post 3123 by Two-Tone-Blue we even tend to do it with our reading habits!) Hands up anybody who thinks CRM only applies to the flight deck environment?
Yes, the CC have their own “world view” as we do ours. They find themselves in a crisis situation, (think aircraft in a spin), and they are looking for evidence that what they are doing is going to WORK AGAIN THIS TIME.
I believe that some on here are behaving more like the old fashioned screeming warning siren that was so effective in paralysing pilots to death. We, (IMHO) should be behaving like a reliable artificial horizon and provide thoughtful carefully reasoned helpful advice.
When in a tricky situation, find a source of reliable information and act on it.
Helpful analogy? What do you think?

[JayPee28bpr]

Just to add to the Teamsters debate, see the following on Bloomberg today.

American Air Attendants Ask U.S. Board for Clearance to Strike - Bloomberg.com (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=ahBkk7o4yq4M)

The interesting bits:


(http://www.pprune.org/apps/quote?ticker=AMR%3AUS)American Airlines (http://www.pprune.org/apps/quote?ticker=AMR%3AUS)’ flight attendants requested federal approval to end contract talks, a step toward the first strike at a major U.S. carrier in almost five years.
(http://www.pprune.org/apps/quote?ticker=AMR%3AUS)


American wants to reduce its industry-leading labor costs and raise productivity.



American has told the Federal Aviation Administration that it was considering training managers and other employees as replacement attendants in the event of a strike. In 1993, American trained about 1,300 replacements to try to keep some planes flying during a five-day walkout.


Are we already seeing the first synergies in the AA-BA link-up?

[Litebulbs]

Tip Toes,

Is anyone surprised that one trade union body would seek support from another?

[winstonsmith]

Is anyone surprised that one trade union body would seek support from another?

Not really - and I bet management has it all figured out. They usually do.

What is BASSA suppose to do when they're not getting support from anywhere else?

To BASSA and all of you militant BASSA members
More and more crew are registering to come into work during the strike. BA Confidential Line is also receiving huge amount of calls from crew wanting to come into work - and they most likely will.

Staff Travel
It will be removed PERMANENTLY - BASSA will be in no position after this strike is over to negotiate it back. I think BA will give you a take it or leave it offer - either you accept it - or hand in your uniform. If you go ahead with the strike you will lose a lot things: no more doublenights downroute, fewer MBT's at base, longer days on EF for same pay, hotels would need to be downgraded, possibly further crew reductions on WW - Purser positions to be swapped to Main Crew positions - etc etc..

Trust me - you would be wishing you agreed to working one down instead - €60 million a year plus the cost of the strike - yes, you will be paying for it - it won't be very nice.

[Litebulbs]

The funny thing with it, is that I was there for 13 years and I used it 5 times. If I believed in the action, then I would gladly tell BA to shove that particular benefit up its.... well you know.

[Right Engine]

The pilots naively believe that because some of them are volunteering as CC that they will be treated extra well by WW. If they believe that they will believe anything. WW saw off the BALPA in the courts over OpenLies and this whole business will come back to bite them very hard indeed.

That is a gross oversimplification of what to each and every pilot volunteer was a very tough decision to make. As a volunteer, I did not turn up for my 3 day SEP course naively thinking I was gaining a brownie point. I was supporting my belief that Willie needed the leverage of a volunteer workforce to keep this airline afloat. British Airways, in the eyes of many of the travelling public has a brand that was synonymous with "INDUSTRIAL UNREST".
I, like many of the volunteers, had grave doubts whether the brand could ever extricate itself from the image of an airline that is forever dogged by strikes. We all knew that the relationship with our cabin crew colleagues would be under strain, but in my opinion, there is close to a majority of cabin crew turning up on Saturday and they seem to hold the same beliefs as we do.

If BA do go belly up I will however be putting on my CV that I volunteered. At least that would convey that I was committed to the survival of my company.

If you really can't bring yourself to work as crew, BA are looking for volunteers to taxi aircraft on Friday night and there is plenty of overtime available. Help yourself to the money on offer whilst some of your colleagues save the airline.

[Watersidewonker]

So Willie your little plan seems to have hit a slight problem being so close to St Patricks day your going to be such a unhappy man. With many a plane stuck in the USA will some of the '' Can I help you '' T-shirt brigade will be getting worried about delays. Brothers and Sisters our union is going worldwide
with this problem of dictorial leadership and I suspect more trump cards will be played.

[Dairyground]

Litebulbs


Staff Travel

The funny thing with it, is that I was there for 13 years and I used it 5 times. If I believed in the action, then I would gladly tell BA to shove that particular benefit up its.... well you know.


Others whose roles keep their feet mostly on the ground and have reasonably regular work patterns may feel the same about it. However, from many earlier posts on this thread I get the impression that a fairly high number of flight crew and cabin crew find that they can live a long way from their base, in the UK or abroad, and use staff travel facilities intensively to commute to and from work. The impact on their lifestyle of losing ST would be much more than an increase in the cost of occasional holidays.

[Lord Bracken]

You may have only used it 5 times in 13 years, but a large number of BA crew use it more like 13 times every 5 weeks in order to get to and from work...

[Litebulbs]

I am sure that you are right, but I wonder what that number would be. If it was 3000, then that will have a huge impact from Saturday onwards. If it is 200, then not so much.

Litebulbs



Others whose roles keep their feet mostly on the ground and have reasonably regular work patterns may feel the same about it. However, from many earlier posts on this thread I get the impression that a fairly high number of flight crew and cabin crew find that they can live a long way from their base, in the UK or abroad, and use staff travel facilities intensively to commute to and from work. The impact on their lifestyle of losing ST would be much more than an increase in the cost of occasional holidays.

[Snas]

I seem to recall somewhere a figure of between 10-15% being commuters.

[Litebulbs]

Snas,

Then, if I was a rep, I would tell them to break the strike.

[Skipness One Echo]

But the shadow transport secretary Theresa Villiers said Unite was "seeking to make things worse and internationalise the dispute".

"I gather the aim in talking to these other trade unions is to seek to block BA flights from landing during the period of the dispute," she said.

Are BASSA going to encourage secondary action abroad even though it's illegal in the UK?

BBC News - BA strike: Unite talks to US union (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8571456.stm)

[Snas]

...as would I. Regardless of your view of the legal position of ST loss, thats a big ask for someone who lives in Spain, wherever, to put at risk.

I dont believe that has been BASSA's position however.

...and Skipness, why wouldnt they, the gloves are off are they not.

[winstonsmith]

Break the strike?

Have you not listened to any of BASSA's latest communication? They say BA cannot discriminate people for taking industrial action - which they would by removing staff travel permanently for those not turning up for duty.

Others do not believe BA will do it - as the case was during the strike in 1997 when it was removed during the strike and when it was over put in place. They constantly saying they had the same threats now as then - they have no idea. In 1997 they said staff travel would be removed during the strike - this time to be removed permanently.

And - BASSA is convinced they will be able to demand that staff travel is reinstated before they sign any deal - laughable. :D

[al446]

Skipness, they are withdrawing their labour (legal) and others on another continent are making their own decision in respect of what do (or not) in respect of this dispute. Tony Woodley has NO control over US unions but if they wish to show international solidarity that is a matter for them.

Perhaps the focus of family holidays being ruined/disrupted should also fall on BA.

Just my 2p worth.

[beamender99]

BBC item

British Airways union Unite is to meet its US counterpart Teamsters on Wednesday to discuss the strike by the airline's cabin crew.
Teamsters, the main transport union in the US, confirmed that the meeting had been arranged.
It said it would "stand in solidarity" with Unite, but it is unclear what part, if any, the US union would play in the strikes.
The first strike by BA cabin crew is due to begin on Saturday.
Unite played down the meeting, saying that Unite would be meeting Teamsters officials to explain the background of the dispute.
"Unite has received a large number of inquiries from unions around the world offering their support to cabin crew," it said in a statement.
Blocking landings
But the shadow transport secretary Theresa Villiers said Unite was "seeking to make things worse and internationalise the dispute".
"I gather the aim in talking to these other trade unions is to seek to block BA flights from landing during the period of the dispute," she said.
Teamsters has 1.4 million members in the US, including 40,000 workers in the aviation industry.

BA said it was "sad" to see Unite "seeking backing from trade unions overseas to support its unjustified strike against an iconic British brand".

[JayPee28bpr]

Doesn't the USA have similar restrictions on secondary action to the UK?

[M.Mouse]

If you really can't bring yourself to work as crew, BA are looking for volunteers to taxi aircraft on Friday night and there is plenty of overtime available. Help yourself to the money on offer whilst some of your colleagues save the airline.

Right Engine

It is a highly contentious point as to whether pilots volunteering to work as volunteer CC would make or break WW's plan or indeed BA itself. So your last sentence, while making you appear a martyr to the cause, is at best, questionable.

I am as right wing as they come but having observed BA management first hand for the past 20+ years I do realise why unions are a necessary evil. However, the act of using other unionised workers in the same company to break a dispute is one thing but the pilot's volunteering I think is a disaster.

Firstly, relations between pilots and CC in BA have always been poor and BASSA have never missed an opportunity to cast aspersions about pilots with most allegations or references being almost entirely fictitious. I hardly think pilots volunteering will improve that situation.

Secondly, BALPA have claimed neutrality yet one of the BACC reps has caused unbelievable dissent and division within the BALPA hierachy by volunteering himself at the first opportunity. How will that help the pilot negotiators when next there is a joint negotiation between all flying staff representatives and BA?

Thirdly, how will BALPA's declared neutral stance be seen when one of its volunteer officers has visibly sought to undermine another union's dispute?

Fourthly, it is my view that once WW wins this dispute, which he well and truly will, does anybody really believe he will not be emboldened to tackle the next group using similar tactics?

Unite/BASSA 'leaders' are a bunch of short sighted idiots and their ridiculous behaviour has jeopardised the position of everybody in the company but looking further ahead they will have truly stuffed all employees negotiating strength for the foreseeable future once they are beaten.

BA's immediate viability is not much threatened by this strike. They have the funding and can allow it to continue for some months although my prediction is it will be over within 48 hours. BA's real problem is that its business model no longer works and its CAPEX funding requirements over the next few years are far from assured.

I have worked for numerous companies during my career but I have to say, with no sense of pleasure, that BA is the most dysfunctional organisation I have ever known. Interdepartmental envy, wilful obstructiveness (e.g. when using staff travel) and sheer unpleasantness often shown by individuals to colleagues in other departments coupled with appalling middle management makes it a very odd place to work.

The reason I stay is because it pays me very well indeed and is one of the best pilot jobs in the world. Being a pilot also means that for most of the time I am not immediately affected by the aforementioned issues and my working environment can be described as pleasant.

But to be brutally honest many thousands of BA employees don't deserve to have a job let alone a well rewarded one with BA and if BA went bust it would finally bring home a few home truths to those who have been blind to them for so long.

This current dispute epitomises the culture within BA and the future will indeed be interesting.

[YYC F/A]

Let's see...


New "Final" agreement put forth by BA
Unite asks for time to ballot membership - offers to call of strike while they do this
BA, worried the agreement might actually be accepted (!), says screw you, offer is off the table now


It's been said in this thread by others, and it's so right. WW must have near shat himself when he realised the CC membership might just actually give the ok on the new agreement.

At least the BA PR person being quoted by the Guardian now is being honest about things - stopping only just short from spelling out how "we see public support, we see media support, we see weakness and in-fighting between the different employee groups (perfect, that plan worked just swell Jerry!), we even see the cc workforce now split in opinion - WOW - we can also fly 60% of our passengers - heck we don't want an agreement now, we want this strike! Bring it, baby!!"

The union has offered to call of the strike, but WW has got the taste for a smack down, and he's chomping at the bit for a dirty fight. Well after all, this was the reason he was hired to the top job at the world's fave, right?

[ChicoG]

Let's see...

* New "Final" agreement put forth by BA
* Unite asks for time to ballot membership - offers to call of strike while they do this
* BA, worried the agreement might actually be accepted (!), says screw you, offer is off the table now

UNITE don't want the embarrassment of a strike, and would love to dig themselves out of the hole McWitless and BASSA have dug for them.

Steve Turner on a freebie to meet the Teamsters (honourable bunch, that lot!) is hardly going to help the PR cause, is it?

BA want the strike. They want to demonstrate to UNITE, BASSA and any sheep that follow them that they will no longer put up with the CC union nonsense that has dogged the airline for decades.

Good for you Mr. Walsh.

Finish the job.

[spin_doctor]

The union has offered to call of the strike, but WW has got the taste for a smack down, and he's chomping at the bit for a dirty fight.

Not true. What Unite have actually said is:


"Put the offer back on the table and we will look sensibly at suspending the strike and we can hopefully find a long-term solution to a very difficult subject." Woodley said.

No guarantee of calling off the strike at all, and since when have Unite/BASSA looke sensibly at anything?

[Chickenlickin]

I think the difference here is in the wording being banded about. BA wants the strike "cancelled", Unite have offered to "postpone" strikes, if a deal is put back on the table, allegedly. Big difference in the two words.

[Basil]

Although the Teamsters appears to be a bit cleaner now than in former days, I'd expect they'd take the view that 'one good turn deserves another'.
That's in the unlikely event that they are prepared to do anything substantial :rolleyes:

Funny old thing, the present General President is Jimmy Hoffa's son.

[nurjio]

M Mouse - an interesting post. Sheds much light on to inter-group relations. I too beleive BA to be dysfunctional; however, I that that much of BA's problems lie with the attitude of those workers who choose to believe the propaganda that flies around the various departments. Much of the propoganda, as we all know, is rubbish and is generated by those with 'peculiar' agendas. I believe the BA business model to be morphing into a workable beast, (albeit slowly-it has to, but that's for another debate) and I am glad Mr Walsh is the man at the helm as a weaker character would have run a mile months ago.


Attitude is something that an individual has control over. You can choose how to approach your work with an attitude. Imagine if every single employee arrived at BA with an attitude solely focussed on delivering the finest service to the customer, unshackled from a mindset influenced and controlled by suspicion and bigotry. BA would rule the world because, despite all of this militancy from Looney Leonard, the scouse docker, BA -The Brand is still alluring and still oozes SAFETY/CLASS.

The trick, post strike, will be to align attitude in the right direction. That will take decent leadership, something that the cabin crew are crying out for, something that the rest of us have top down from Mr Walsh at the moment.

Tin hat on. :}

IMHO.


nurj

[Flyluke]

Whilst Teamsters themselves are unlikely to be able to do much legally, the possibilities for 'unofficial' action on the ground are many and varied.

That Teamsters are even talking to union and expressing solidarity with CC puts the whole dispute onto a much bigger stage.

If I was flying anywhere with BA anytime soon, and had the opportunity to change to another carrier, I would, if only on the basis of the Teamster development.

[binsleepen]

Big phone in on 5 live now re BA. PCCC get in there.

[Mariner9]

•New "Final" agreement put forth by BA
•Unite asks for time to ballot membership - offers to call of strike while they do this
•BA, worried the agreement might actually be accepted (!), says screw you, offer is off the table now

YYC, that was not what happened. WW may well be spoiling for a fight, but Unite decided there was going to be one. Here's what in fact happened...


•New "Final" agreement put forth by BA conditional on no strike
•Unite asks for time to ballot membership, though saying they would not recommend it. BA agree to further time conditional on no strike.
•Unite worries that offer may be accepted by CC and anounces strike.
•Unite realises many CC are unhappy the BA offer was rejected and demand the offer they don't recommend is put back on table.

[PaddyMiguel]

..........Imagine if every single employee arrived at BA with an attitude solely focussed on delivering the finest service to the customer, unshackled from a mindset influenced and controlled by suspicion and bigotry. BA would rule the world.................. BA -The Brand is still alluring and still oozes SAFETY/CLASS.

The trick, post strike, will be to align attitude in the right direction. That will take decent leadership, something that the cabin crew are crying out for, something that the rest of us have top down from Mr Walsh at the moment.

nurj

"Putting People First" and "Breakthrough" were just 2 initiatives devised and succesfully implemented by BA to bring about that change in attitude that nurj describes.
Change management is extraordinarily difficult but not impossible. It requires a level of trust, mutual respect and understanding between management and employees not usually seen in the boss/worker relationship.
As long as (some) unions continue the fight/struggle/war on behalf of the downtrodden/oppressed workers against the bullying/macho/exploitative bosses then resistance to change will remain.
Once this strike is over it will be necessary for WW and the Leadership Team to start over and create a close relationship with the remaining employees.
Perhaps employee representation at Board level could achieve this? Once mutual trust and respect have been established BA's workforce can then face the future united in their common goals.

[Wyler]

So UNITE is talking to the TEAMSTERS who are very supportive. Of course they are. If they can help trash BA then it opens the way for their own carriers to fill the void. :rolleyes:

Spectacular own goal. Idiots. :D:ugh:

BA will go to the wall as there is no sympathy for this strike. WW will walk away with a pot of money and your wonderful 1970's Union Officials will retire to their offices to claim the next bonus and look for the next pointless fight. Meanwhile, the BA staff will be lining up with the hoodies to collect their jobseekers allowance.

There is an almighty adjustment coming in the next two years. Buckle up. :sad:

[stormin norman]

Its shame thet BA cannot (via the TUC) ballot the cabin crew direct on its proposal (which Unite have consistently failed to do),but there again why put common sense in front of a leadership battle at UNITE.

[binsleepen]

Well done Rosemary, CC from Gatwick, on Radio 5 Live. Very sensible. Glamgirl was that you?:ok:

[wascrew]

Radio 5 live

One crew member said his wages will drop by 30%.
Where has he got this from?

[ottergirl]

I suspect he is referring to the anticipated transfer of the 'best' routes to new fleet. Without a matrix for transferral, the Union are forecasting that all the long-range routes will be the first to go, leaving the cheaper routes with the old fleet. That would give the maximum savings for new-fleet given that there is still the cost of recruitment and training to absorb as well as setting up a separate scheduling system.

I don't fly world-wide but even I know that there is a substantial difference between a NRT and a BOM.

[ChicoG]

ChicoG - may I suggest that you equip yourself with some figures before saying that someone is lying. Rude certainly, slanderous maybe!

Apologies, Ottergirl, I should not have phrased it that way.

What I should have said is that in the absence of *any* evidence to support his assertion, it lacks credibility. You cannot come up with a factual statement about losing 30% of your pay based on hypotheses..

The news that an "accountant" came up with such a precise fraction implies that there are figures in existence to show how this fraction was reached.

But without these, how can it be taken seriously?

Could someone please post the link to 5Live broadcast that can be downloaded after transmission?

Thanks.

[wascrew]

Ottergirl

There was a matrix in the BA proposal as well as a guarantee on earnings through the attendance allowance.
So, I don`t know where the guy was getting his figures from, certainly not an accountant Imho. Is it another example of misinformation/spin from BASSA? I think the same person has been on a few radio phone-ins singing the same song.
As for the comment from him
``I won`t be able to feed my family`` I am speechless over that.

However in the real world we are now left again with the `next move` which surely has to come from WW.
Personally I can`t see a return to the negotiating table. It has to be the 90 day SOSR based on the last proposal presented to the unions by BA.

[Low Flier]

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/01598/1703-MATT-INSIDE-w_1598164a.gif

[TruBlu123]

As ever with 'phone -in programmes like these there is a lot of nonsense spoken. I listened with incredulity to the CSD from Twickenham justfying one component of the Disruption Agreement. He claimed that it was driven by the "more restictive CAA rules" and not the industrial agreement. He is either being economic with the truth or just plain does not know. If the latter is says a lot about the competence of some who are working in senior positions on board the aircraft.

[ChicoG]

The caller in question said he'd spoken to "his accountant" and "with Mr. Walsh's proposal I will in fact be taking a 30% cut". Where is the fact, I ask?

He intimated that Mr. Walsh's proposal doesn't touch his basic pay "which is contractual" but goes on to say how complex other payments are, and finishes by saying "all <sic> our allowances and extra pay will be gone".

When pressed to clarify the numbers, he said "I don't really want to discuss figures."

I don't recall seeing anything in the last BA proposal that does this.

So I can understand why he was unable to provide figures.

From the other callers, there's just a load more willie bashing.

[Discorde]

From today's 'Independent', copyright Mark Steel:

HERE WE go. It's time to blame everything on the unions again. So Gordon Brown calls the planned cabin crews' strike "deplorable", but the Tories and most newspapers scream this isn't enough. Presumably David Cameron will make a statement that starts, "This is much worse than deplorable, Gordon Brown, it's sh*t. Absolute sh*t. And I don't mean like a cow pat, that can be quite endearing in a rural setting, I mean a great squashy dollop left by an untrained Alsatian. So why doesn't the Prime Minister go ahead and say so."

Every news report seems to start with someone explaining their distress about the possible cancellation of their journey, and you expect the reporter to finish by turning to the camera and saying "See what you've done, you unions? I covered the war in Bosnia but this beats anything that happened there. I hope you're pleased with yourselves you bastards. And with that, back to the studio."

The strange part is that BA cabin crews don't generally come across as the selfish wrecking thugs they're now portrayed as. They mostly smile and bring you stuff, so why would 80 per cent of them vote twice for a strike? Perhaps it's because the company wants to bring in new staff on inferior terms to those offered to current employees, with less security and lower wages than the current basic rate of £18,000.

The most common response to this complaint is the current terms can't go on, because Easyjet and Ryanair pay their staff much less. And it's not fair if some people are being treated horribly, so the answer is to treat everyone horribly and then no one feels bad. Maybe charities should work like this. Oxfam could go to Mozambique and say, "So you're living on a bowl of rice a day are you? Well in Somalia they're living on half a bowl of rice a day, so we're taking half your rice away you greedy pigs."

The anti-union rage takes some splendidly imaginative forms. The Conservatives are demanding that Gordon Brown refuses to take funding from Unite. This seems reasonable, as Unite have never shuffled their assets to Belize, never lied about bringing them back, have open votes about political donations and represent the interests of one-and-a-half-million people instead of one person, so they clearly know nothing about how to run a modern business.

And The Daily Telegraph informed us the strike is part of a plot for the unions to run the country, and as part of the evidence one of the Unite offices is "a few doors down from the old Communist Party HQ". Even McCarthy, as far as I know, didn't bellow, "Have you or have you ever been or have you ever lived a few doors down from a communist?"

But that's because he was too soft. Everyone knows the old trick of living a few doors down from the old headquarters, then you only have to nip back in time and you're only a few doors from the current headquarters, with a short walk to ask advice on how to turn the country communist in the future by calling a strike of cabin crews. As it's only a few doors away this means there must be other places, a Boots the chemist perhaps, that are even nearer. Buy a tube of toothpaste from the place and you're as good as selling the old Soviet Union our nuclear missiles.

The people who foam with rage about the union say, "Now is not the time for a strike" as if they want to offer it strategic advice. But if a management imposes a new set of substantially worse conditions, what is a union supposed to do? Does it wait 20 years for a quiet moment, or maybe only bring out the retired and dead members on strike, so no one will notice, in the hope this will win over public opinion?

The anti-union lobby claim they don't mind unions as long as they're responsible, but it's more accurate to say they don't mind unions as long as they're ineffective. They'd be happy if a union was like a church group, and told its members "We've all been given a 40 per cent wage cut, so in response we're going to have some lovely Madeira cake and a game of whist."

So now we should prepare for the next phase, once the strike's begun, in which every news report begins by telling us "Heroic passengers on one plane beat the strike by dishing out their own chicken and unidentifiable pudding, and pointing to the emergency exits while no one took any notice themselves. 'We beat Hitler so we can trounce this lot,' said one woman, who has now been recommended for the Victoria Cross".

[Re-Heat]

In the Economist last week - a pertinent analysis of European austerity that echoes the resistance to change in many employee groups:

Even in the worst-hit countries, protests rarely come from the main victims of the crisis: the young, immigrants and temporary workers. Unemployment in Spain is close to 20%, but the loudest squeals have come from full-time workers arguing against raising the pension age to 67. Greek civil servants are mobilising to defend generous pensions that most of their countrymen will never enjoy. Other strikers include Greek tax collectors (whose bribe-taking is one reason why the country is broke) and taxi drivers furious over plans to make them issue receipts, keep accounts and pay taxes on their full incomes. Elsewhere, strikers have included French air-traffic controllers, said in a recent study by French state auditors to work fewer than 100 days a year—though nobody knows for sure, as their perks include shift patterns kept secret from senior management.

It is perhaps no surprise to find that organised workers in positions of privilege, including many in the public sector, fight the hardest and squeal the most in defence of their benefits.

I'm afraid the Independent's analysis misses the point entirely - a responsible union negotiates the best for its members knowing the external financial position of the company. An irresponsible one fails to negotiate and ignores economic reality.

[henkybaby]

In the Netherlands the VNC (also a cabin crew union) has protested against the services provided by ArkeFly and Transavia to BA. They feel that no other airlines should help BA break the strike. This in anticipation of a strike at AF where they hope to prevent KLM taking over flights.

All in all this strike becomes less and less damaging for the reputation of BA. IB, LH have gone before them, AA and AF will go after them and no doubt more will follow as the aviation industry has to cleanse itself from a long history of being publicly owned.

Former national carriers have a different cost base than more modern airlines. All (not just BA) of these airlines will have to go through painful changes. I don't think BA will be anymore hurt (commercially) than AF or LH. The crew and the unions of all these airlines will have a hard time accepting these changes but without it these carriers cannot survive.

[Right Engine]

Right Engine

It is a highly contentious point as to whether pilots volunteering to work as volunteer CC would make or break WW's plan or indeed BA itself. So your last sentence, while making you appear a martyr to the cause, is at best, questionable.

If we at least agree on it being 'contentious', that's a start. What you are failing to appreciate is (forgive the repetition) that if you asked the average volunteer why they were volunteering, they would have probably answered like me, that if they didn't muck in, they would be rueing their decision in a years time when BA in their pessimistic opinion, went to the wall.

I am as right wing as they come but having observed BA management first hand for the past 20+ years I do realise why unions are a necessary evil. However, the act of using other unionised workers in the same company to break a dispute is one thing but the pilot's volunteering I think is a disaster.

I think I can agree on the fact that we have ruthless managers. I don't think as an organisation we have a monopoly on that style. I have quite a few friends in other industries who are victims to the harsh realities of corporations muddling through the most entrenched recession in our lifetime. Unemployment focusses the mind somewhat and having had the opportunity to sample that in my early 20's, I don't wish to do it again.

Firstly, relations between pilots and CC in BA have always been poor and BASSA have never missed an opportunity to cast aspersions about pilots with most allegations or references being almost entirely fictitious. I hardly think pilots volunteering will improve that situation.

I don't think it will improve the situation too! But when I look at the possibilities that face us, I'm more than happy to continue making my own tea in the forward galley. I would also say, that you are being rather pessimistic about how begrudging our colleagues will be. I have been treated with utter disdain by cabin crew in 'peacetime', by jumped-up militant pr*cks, so to be treated in that way after all this has been resolved will be no different.

Secondly, BALPA have claimed neutrality yet one of the BACC reps has caused unbelievable dissent and division within the BALPA hierachy by volunteering himself at the first opportunity. How will that help the pilot negotiators when next there is a joint negotiation between all flying staff representatives and BA?

The rep you refer to was told to stand down after he did his course. The course that suffered the threatening text to nearly all crew of their names. It became personal and he didn't withdraw as a volunteer. That shows an element of bravery that has been sorely lacked by the more left-leaning reps who sought his dismissal.

Thirdly, how will BALPA's declared neutral stance be seen when one of its volunteer officers has visibly sought to undermine another union's dispute?

He has been removed from office. Should we stone him too? On that point, if his removal was a peace offering by BALPA to consolidate that 'neutrality', why did we not hear from BASSA about it? Because they want us as their 'enemy'. We are the ones 'in the know' about how GOOD it is for crew and how BA's offer was just making their excellent package, slightly less excellent. BASSA fear the pilot community because we can recognise the heady smell of bullsh*t that eminates from their HQ.

Fourthly, it is my view that once WW wins this dispute, which he well and truly will, does anybody really believe he will not be emboldened to tackle the next group using similar tactics?

I don't expect anything else. But then again, if BA looks like the airline it once was in a year or two from now, I'm not sure he would want to tarnish the brand with the threat of IA.

Unite/BASSA 'leaders' are a bunch of short sighted idiots and their ridiculous behaviour has jeopardised the position of everybody in the company but looking further ahead they will have truly stuffed all employees negotiating strength for the foreseeable future once they are beaten.

Can't agree with you. You know as well as I do that their short sightedness and ridiculous behaviour played a part in their downfall. If Unions choose to avoid myopic tom-foolery in the future then their members will not suffer like CC.

BA's immediate viability is not much threatened by this strike. They have the funding and can allow it to continue for some months although my prediction is it will be over within 48 hours. BA's real problem is that its business model no longer works and its CAPEX funding requirements over the next few years are far from assured.

I think that is where we fundamentally agree to differ. I believe in a rather old fashioned business model that suggests that if as a going concern, you make your revenue exceed your costs by a healthy margin, then all is well. BA is hindering it's revenue because people will not book with us whilst we are associated with an annual ritual of Industrial action. If we solve that nut with Willie's sledgehammer, then we can make that simple equation work to all our advantage. So, yes, the immediate viability is not the issue, the long term viability is!

I have worked for numerous companies during my career but I have to say, with no sense of pleasure, that BA is the most dysfunctional organisation I have ever known. Interdepartmental envy, wilful obstructiveness (e.g. when using staff travel) and sheer unpleasantness often shown by individuals to colleagues in other departments coupled with appalling middle management makes it a very odd place to work.

I have been long term unemployed. It is not as nice.

The reason I stay is because it pays me very well indeed and is one of the best pilot jobs in the world. Being a pilot also means that for most of the time I am not immediately affected by the aforementioned issues and my working environment can be described as pleasant.

But to be brutally honest many thousands of BA employees don't deserve to have a job let alone a well rewarded one with BA and if BA went bust it would finally bring home a few home truths to those who have been blind to them for so long.

This current dispute epitomises the culture within BA and the future will indeed be interesting.

So if you feel that way, and the process of volunteering was the only contribution you could make to averting BA's demise, then could you possibly be agreeing with me?

[L337]

I gather the aim in talking to these other trade unions is to seek to block BA flights from landing during the period of the dispute

Well the aeroplanes can stay up in the air, but eventually they will run out of fuel, and then they will come down.

Looks like Unite and the Teamsters are looking to endanger the lives of crew and passengers.

That might just also be illegal in the USA.

[ExecClubPax]

No the aim of any action by union members in USA, Australia and anyother overseas destination will be to incoveninece passengers who BA manage to carry during strike days. They will be seen as legitimate targets of this action because they have the temerity to try to complete travel plans many have made months prior to the strike being muted.

Baggage handling, aircraft cleaning, catering and aircraft maneuvering will be disrupted in an effort to put passengers off flying BA (and in the process losing the money they have paid for their tickets). There can be no mistake. Unite's attempts to incite what amounts to secondary action (illegal in the UK) are about bringing the most inconvenience as possible to the travelling public.

With the trouble brewing in the US airline industry, I guess we can look forward to Unite's members taking similar action against American carriers operating into the UK. That will be the price for US solidarity and an action that will almost certainly put the Union in conflict with the courts. I wonder whether the Teamsters have considered this aspect and realised Unite is not in a position to reciprocate?

[Timothy Claypole]

Fortunately the views of polax are irrelevant. Any company which subjects BA to secondary action in the US will see it's handling contract revoked pretty damn quickly. That'll be more teamsters on benefits.

[demomonkey]

Over the last few days I have been surprised by how many CC&FD seem genuinely shocked that trade union organisations contribute large sums of money to the Labour party. Hello, where have you been? The origin of the Labour Party stems from the idea of workers financing a socially progressive political movement to represent their views which were largely ignored by the Tory/Liberal establishment of old. You're financing the proletariat - get over it.

I was also shocked by many of my colleagues reactions to how BA intends to support those who do chose to work with reimbursement of travel costs. What did you expect? That the company would roll over and give in?

For WW this is war, not just war but THE war and he's determined to win. He's learned well from previous clashes and he seems to have thought way way ahead of BASSA's leadership and is ready to immediately respond. Regardless of what happens at the upcoming meeting, he will already have a response prepared. Two fundamental rules of negotiating have been broken here;
Know your opponent - BASSA have massively under-estimated WW's determination.
Never ask a question you don't know the answer too - BASSA has voluntarily walked itself into a place where WW has the undeniable advantage. This should be a case study for other unions.I think it is absolutely shameful that BASSA have so naively got themselves into this position. CC deserve much much better!

So don't be so shocked, it only makes you [BASSA/Unite] look naive. As the saying goes "if you're going to swim with sharks, don't bleed".

[Papillon]

I can't help but think that UNITE's decision to raise the stakes by going to other unions around the world is going to be a terrible, terrible mistake. I can see why they find it an attractive option, but raising the stakes in this way can only force BA to do the same. And that is not good at all for those that actually matter in this dispute, the cabin crew. BA will not be held to ransom like this, and may well escalate things further to never be placed again in such a situation.

[nurjio]

demomonkey, you mention war..

The first principle of war is The selection and maintenance of the aim....I am now of the opinion that BASSA have no idea really what their aim is in all of this, particularly now Looney Leonard has hijacked their 'cause' for his own agenda, and now that parliament have taken the case on as a political football.

Mr Walsh knows his aim, 'I will not let this union destroy this company'...and that is perfectly understood by any 'informed' person.

nurj

[nurjio]

The 2nd principle of war is The maintenance of morale.

I would submit that a great many BASSA members morale is shot to bits by union befuddlement.


'phut'

nurj

[Dawdler]

According to the BBC, BA will be increasing the number of flights operating above the 60% already announced due to the number of volunteers available.

[VOG]

Seem to remember some years back CC had a chance to go for an hourly rate like the pilots. BASSA ruled it out. Pity really now wasn't it? Might have made the loss of "good trips" to WW's new contract crew fleet a little more palatable. If you ever get the chance again, do what the pilots do - I've never known them lose out.

[aaaaa]

It almost looks as this battle has just come down to Unite and possibly, Teamsters and other international unions v BA. It is almost as if the CC are irrelevant now.

What is going on. I do not believe that the CC really expected this to go as it has gone.

By the way, when Unite announced that strike action was to be taken they also said that there would be an electronic ballot of the CC and the results would be announced on Tuesday 16th. Well, what was the result - seems to have been overtaken by events.

[nurjio]

aaaaaaaaaa... do keep up, the electronic ballot was supposed to be on the BA offer. That offer was withdrawn after Looney Len screwed up.

nurj

[Andy_S]

According to the BBC, BA will be increasing the number of flights operating above the 60% already announced due to the number of volunteers available.

I suspect BA have known this for some while, but have chosen to manage expectations carefully. By drip feeding progressively better news, they'll sow further doubts in the minds of uncertain CC as to whether there's any point in striking. I wouldn't be surprised if, over the next few days, they announce a further increase in flights operating.

[Middy]

Share price up again today !:)

[arem]

Down 5.20 on my screen (BBC)

[mhum73]

Are BA saying what percentage of flights (up from the 60%) they are now able to fly?

[Walnut]

Seeking to undermine the confidence of an enemy, which is how WW now sees his cabin crew, is a classic tactic to win a battle. However just look at the thread in rumours where Cathy Pacific has now been chartered to provide a 744 over 3 days. This charter alone will provide 2400 extra seats, I suspect that the extra capacity which BA is now spinning is coming from this and other charters, not from an increase in CC numbers.
What interests me is how is the airline is going to get back on its feet after Monday. Is WW going to lock out strikers,? if that is the case then I fear this strike will get very bitter.

[YYC F/A]

I don't know where (links please!) it has been stated by the Teamsters that they are going to try and stop planes from landing.

As others have posted, Teamsters don't control Air Traffic Control, they're not going to be standing out on the runway when the aircraft tries to land.

All Teamsters can do is a 'slow down' from their members involved with servicing the aircraft which could cause delays.

Too much unfounded conjecture out there.

[Hotel Mode]

This charter alone will provide 2400 extra seats, I suspect that the extra capacity which BA is now spinning is coming from this and other charters, not from an increase in CC numbers.

Its 4000 extra seats per day. The CX 747 is less than 20% of the extra seats.

[Two-Tone-Blue]

Oh, please, people, stop using the "war" analogy. :ugh:

BA is the company, the management and the shareholders.
BASSA is the representative of something like 50% of cabin crew.

Society has moved on from those days of "Wicked Bosses at 't Mill". If people don't like their job, or T&Cs, or the shirt the CEO wears, then move on. NOBODY in GB has an absolute employment right to 'self' over 'company', let alone rights over other employees, customers or indeed the Nation.

[Flap62]

The increased capacity (press release now stating 65%) is not just due to any extra wet lease. The first iteration of the plan called for just 777 and some airbus. They now have enough cabin crew willing to fulfil their contractual obligations that they are introducing 747 into the programme.

[YYC F/A]

I don't think the CC community as a whole/majority are happy with the way things have turned in the last 4 days. Time will tell how this will impact membership, union representation, trust with union etc etc.

I do believe that crew are (justifiably) concerned about 'being starved off their contracts' if they want to change fleets, change to part time or full time, look at promotion. I do believe that most (emphasis on most, I agree not all - but most) crew are willing to look at pay cuts and/or pay freezes if there can be some headway on NewFleet concerns.

I also believe that many (most?) crew are highly frustrated that their union representatives did not consult fully on the 'final proposal' - it sounds like it may even have been approved.

To all my former cabin crew colleagues at BA - it's tough times indeed. Be careful guys on your decisions this weekend. The best "win win" would be to push hard on your union reps to call off the strike giving time for a ballot to be made on the final offer (and for that offer to be adjusted / ratified allowing both sides to claim a victory).

Sadly though, I don't know if this is even an option now. Things have gone too fare and WW seems to be set on seeing out the strike now at all costs.

[PaddyMiguel]

The best "win win" would be to push hard on your union reps to call off the strike giving time for a ballot to be made on the final offer (and for that offer to be adjusted / ratified allowing both sides to claim a victory).

Sadly though, I don't know if this is even an option now. Things have gone too fare and WW seems to be set on seeing out the strike now at all costs.

How do you push hard on a kitchen fitter and a 33%er off on sick leave plus another rep who hasn't flown since the imposition? BASSA have been granted carte blanche (by a show of hands I believe) to negotiate 'in good faith' by the membership and will report back with the deal that they have secured. The rank and file have no further say in the matter.

[Two-Tone-Blue]

From the BA website, timestamped 1735 today, 17 March ...

After publishing our flying schedules for 20, 21 and 22 March, an increasing volume of cabin crew have offered to work in support of our contingency plans.

This has enabled us to reinstate some previously cancelled flights and provide extra capacity for both longhaul and shorthaul destinations on 20, 21 and 22 March.

These will be loaded back into our systems over the coming hours.

[wascrew]

nurjio

`` Any striker, I suspect will not be locked out, but will want to report to work to discover that their roster has been significantly interfered with.``


What actually happens if/when a crew member fails to arrive for their flight?
Lets say they have a 3 day trip followed by 3 days MBT then another duty.
Do BA phone the crew member and ask them if they are on strike?
As the first action lasts for 3 days is the crew member then eligible to work on day 4?
I presume as in sickness the crew members whole roster will be wiped/flexied and they are eligible for 12 hours notice of duty from midnight day 4.

What else WW has up his sleeve for the strikers?
Does he offer all non-strikers a 90 day SOSR or vote to accept based on the last BA offer rejected by the unions and all strikers a 90 day SOSR on the `new fleet ` contracts? Can he do this?
If he can then that will be one way to get rid of the militants.

[LD12986]

There's an article on the PCCC on FT.com

FT.com / UK / Society - Alternative group flies in face of Unite (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/6e7a2590-3163-11df-9741-00144feabdc0.html)

One is a 44-year-old mother of three who lives near Heathrow.

Another is 36, lives close to Gatwick, and likes to sketch landscapes in her spare time.

Together, they have almost 32 years of experience as British Airways cabin crew employees.

And this Saturday, when most of their 12,000 colleagues have voted to walk out in the first BA strike in almost 13 years, both women are planning to cross the picket lines and head into work.

They have brought their BA staff identity cards to an interview with the FT to verify their credentials, but neither is willing to allow her real name to be published.

"For our own protection and for our families' safety, that's what we have to do at the moment," says "Frieda", who has been with BA for 12 years, based at Gatwick.

She and "Suzy", a BA veteran of almost 20 years who works from Heathrow, were both longstanding union members at the airline.

But in the middle of last year, as the Unite union was discussing BA's controversial move to cut the number of cabin crew on most long-distance flights by at least one, they say they grew unhappy with the union's handling of the dispute.

By December, when the union won overwhelming support in a ballot for industrial action and threatened a 12-day strike over Christmas - eventually thwarted by BA legal action - they and four others got together to set up the Professional Cabin Crew Council, a group which claims to offer a more moderate alternative to Unite.

"We thought Unite was leading us down the path to ruin," says Suzy. "People didn't vote to go off work for 12 days."

There was also, the women claim, an intimidating level of aggression from colleagues directed towards anyone opposing the union, which subsequently won another ballot authorising this week's planned walk-out, prompting BA to train pilots and other volunteers to replace striking workers.

"There have been threats on cabin crew chat rooms warning pilots who had volunteered to be careful of the food they were served on board flights once they went back to flying," says Frieda. "People are scared."

[demomonkey]

I don't think the CC community as a whole/majority are happy with the way things have turned in the last 4 days. Time will tell how this will impact membership, union representation, trust with union etc etc.
So why do they repeatedly keep voting yes? The vast majority of crew say they want to 'only send a message to WW'. Well (a.) he's not listening and (b.) BASSA's leadership keep squandering their capital.


The best "win win" would be to push hard on your union reps to call off the strike giving time for a ballot to be made on the final offer (and for that offer to be adjusted / ratified allowing both sides to claim a victory).
The damage has been done. Twice in the last 4 months BASSA has had a major impact on forward bookings, revenue and customer perception. This costs £££ and does the company material damage. The time for compromise has long since passed. Who in their right mind would now want to negotiate or even work with BASSA? They have at no time shown any possibility of being able to be form a meaningful partnership to create more productive Industrial Relations. It's time for the CC to be represented by a more progressive body.

BASSA: Belligerent, Antagonistic, Soon (to be) Swept Away

[Papillon]

BA cabin crew look certain to strike after airline refuses to rule out sackings | Business | guardian.co.uk (http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/mar/17/ba-cabin-crew-strike-certain)

A strike by British Airways cabin crew looks certain to go ahead, after the airline refused to guarantee it would not sack union officials at the heart of the industrial action.

In a move that dramatically raises the stakes over an increasingly fraught dispute, BA is now on a path that could see a clearout of senior shop stewards at Bassa, the Unite trade union cabin crew branch. Seven members of Bassa's committee are still facing disciplinary proceedings that were launched after talks between Unite and BA began last year.

[traveller5]

The pages tell me that there is little evidence of team work in BA. Would you want to be in the hands of staff who are at war with one another? Nasty.

[Two-Tone-Blue]

The pages tell me that there is little evidence of team work in BA. Would you want to be in the hands of staff who are at war with one another? Nasty.

These wouldn't be the [1000+?] people who are volunteering to fill gaps in the CC schedule? And generally getting behind the Company?

Or just the ones determined to cause disruption as a hobby?

There are MANY page to read, Sir/Madam. Please do that. ;)

[Nutjob]

traveller5

Can someone explain why so many BA crews vote for a strike but recent press releases talk of more and more crews coming forward to say they are willing to work? Double standards? "Yes...but no"....

I can. Crew voted YES to strike action to "send willie a message". I've heard this repeated time after time after time. So many really didn't think that Willie would stick to his guns and they'd actually have to strike - with all the risks that brings.

The genuine threat of the loss of Staff Travel for life has brought it all home.

BASSA reps have made it clear that any return-to-work agreement WILL include the re-instatement of Staff Travel.

Wiilie made it 100% clear in his Monday speech that this will NOT happen and that those strikers will lose their ST for life.

Depends who you have your money on, but it's a fair old gamble imho.

[Nutjob]

These wouldn't be the [1000+?] people who are volunteering to fill gaps in the CC schedule? And generally getting behind the Company?

Plus the 6000 cabin crew who aren't in a union, didn't vote or voted NO.

Plus (of course) the many YES-voters who will cross that picket line.

Those of us who are working are in the majority and will be backed by another 40,000 (or so) groundstaff and pilots. We're not the ones to worry about traveller5. Rest assured we'll be as present, helpful, safe and professional as always.

[Hot Wings]

Lots of calls to BAHS from crew too "stressed" to work. Guess the response from BAHS!

Half of level 3 of the T5 short stay carpark is now closed off and is being cleaned to accommodate overflow pax from the terminal.

Willie has received the message. CC won't like his answer.

[Openclimb]

Right Engine,

I think I can agree on the fact that we have ruthless managers. I don't think as an organisation we have a monopoly on that style. I have quite a few friends in other industries who are victims to the harsh realities of corporations muddling through the most entrenched recession in our lifetime. Unemployment focusses the mind somewhat and having had the opportunity to sample that in my early 20's, I don't wish to do it again.

Do we really, though?

I have been surprised, over and over again by the consistantly reasonable attitude taken by BA during this dispute. Time and time again, Iv'e expected them to go for the jugular and instead they seem to have been bending over backwards to be reasonable with the cabin crew.

Anything but ruthless, I would say.

[ArthurScargill]

Society has moved on from those days of "Wicked Bosses at 't Mill". If people don't like their job, or T&Cs, or the shirt the CEO wears, then move on. NOBODY in GB has an absolute employment right to 'self' over 'company', let alone rights over other employees, customers or indeed the Nation.

And theirs the rub.
Surely we're all old enough and well enough protected by law in this day and age to not need unions in the traditionsl sense ?
At the end of this, crew will look at BASSA/UNITE and wonder how on earth they've came out the other end of this with far worse T&Cs, pay and future prospects than they would have done had they simply accepted the initial proposal.

I don't like the war analogies either but i really hope the circuit is complete come the weekend and BASSA is quite literally crushed. I have missed out on at least 2 bonuses directly attribuatble to them over the years and my own pay has not been decided yet as it can't be concluded until the CC dispute is over so i'm still on EXACTLY the same salary as 3 years ago, despite having a huge increase in responsibility (inc a promotion 15 mths ago) and now working extra hours every week.

As you can probably tell, i'm not even CC, yet BASSA has directly affected (negatively) my own take home pay. I'll be thrilled if they go down at the end of this. Long live the PCCC !!!

[Papillon]

Fascinating that even a Communist website regards the strike as pretty much doomed:

BA strike plan is classic union-busting technique | libcom.org (http://libcom.org/news/ba-strike-plan-classic-union-busting-technique-17032010)

[Noah Zark.]

At the end of this, crew will look at BASSA/UNITE and wonder how on earth they've came out the other end of this with far worse T&Cs, pay and future prospects than they would have done had they simply accepted the initial proposal.


I am not in the industry, but I am interested in it, and a supporter of it. But to those involved, please look at the quote above, step back from the brink for a minute, and reconsider.
It appears that the American trade unions may now become involved, and before you know it, the situation will be being swept along at an ever increasing rate, beyond your control, and possibly your wishes.
A great many people, myself included, fell victim to a very similar situation a couple of decades ago in heavy industry, and if you care to look around you, it wil be clear that nothing benefitting the the ordinary person doing the job became of it. It was a disaster for those involved.
It rapidly became a power struggle between the people at the top of each faction, no-one wanting or willing to back down for fear of losing face.
Don't let it happen to you.

[Entaxei]

I know that this is long ago, but it is part of the roots of todays problems with BASSA/UNITE and the need to ensure that the company is run by its management and not trade unions.

In 1972 the engineering unions at LHR were totally under the control of Trotsy/Marxist leadership, within BEA a small dispute arose in the hangers with early shift, who were called out on strike, when they came on duty, the dayshift came out as well, by 2pm, when the back shift came in, they also went on strike - although the dispute had been resolved and the day shift and morning shift had gone back. When we, the night shift came in, we were told to strike in sympathy, we refused,

On the next few shifts, we were given two reasons why we should go on strike, to show solidarity and to show the 'bosses' that the convenors could call the entire airport out at any time they wished. We still refused.

We then had 13 strike calls (nightshift only), over 11 weeks, each time with meetings called at Barclays at Hatton Cross at 2300 hrs (our shift started at 2230 hrs. There were large union stewards placed in the entrance to the hangers and it was explained to us that if we went in to clock on, we would be blacklisted by the union. BUT the management would be informed that nobody would be allowed to work with any blacklisted individuals, and THEY HAD AGREED with the union that they would dismiss anyone on the blacklist.

So beware, things might be somewhat better today, but the union attitude remains the same of seeking to gain total control. BA has got to win this and cannot possibly afford to back down, and neither can the CC or any other part of BA's workforce allow the union to win.

[Landroger]

As an aside, If BA wants to continue to be a full service airline they will need to pay for skills in all departments and be at least market rate. As long as thats the case, we'll all get a decent salary (in comparison to others doing similar work in the UK),

As I understood it, BA's overall offer - not the recent 'non offer' offer :rolleyes: was always "Market Rate + 10%" - is that not what you are saying and is that not pretty much what the union have been trying to ignore? Excuse my ignorance.

Roger.

[Glamgirl]

Well, according to popular belief (aka GalleyFM) the following are backing the CC strike through secondary action:

Air France CC
Portugese pilots
American union members
Italians (not specified)
Fuel tank drivers in the UK

And apparantly several more in the pipelines.

What the GalleyFM (GFM) people are forgetting though, is that in the US, secondary action is not allowed. AF is striking for their own reasons, and so are the Portugese pilots. Secondary action isn't allowed in the UK either, so I doubt the fuel tank drivers will turn up at BFC on Saturday (unless they're on a day off).

Do the GFM people really believe their own hype? I guess the answer to that question is "yes"

And I was under the impression that a union isn't allowed to solicit secondary action? Am I wrong?

Gg

Ps. It wasn't me on the radio, just for the record

[Vld1977]

Either back down, or BA might not exist anymore, and more then likely your jobs will have gone. Fancy RYR? No airline will touch you after this, good luck and good riddance!
I feel sorry for the CC who do not support this action and stance, look out for number one first!
http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/buttons/report.gif (http://www.pprune.org/report.php?p=5578008)

This is what I meant. Although I don't support this strike, strinking is a legal right. Why does some people have this almost erotic desire of seeing striking cabin crew out of a job, and if possible, forever? What have they done to deserve such hate? Why are you saying things like "good riddance"? Are you a shareholder? I don't believe you would want the same fate for them if your daughter/son was one of them!

Strike is a legal right, and you have to respect people going on strike. they are not killing or stealing, they are enforcing their legal rights. If you don't want workers to have the right of striking, I can suggest a few countries you could go to and live happily without the threat of striking employees. Then again, if you are not rich enough (sure you are, by the comments you write) you will have to be a second class citizen!

[Bill of the Hamptons]

Rights are normally associated with responsibilities. The CC's right to strike should surely be associated with the responsibility of only doing so if absolutely necessary and not just to "give Willie Walsh a message".
Other staff in the company surely have a right to expect that their colleagues do not jeopardise everyone's job who works for BA without good cause, particularly when they have done what was asked of them to help the company survive and prosper. Something that BASSA/Unite only recently accepted was necessary after months of "negotiation"ie saying no not us, we're so special:ugh:

[ChicoG]

Air France flight attendants reportedly will strike March 28-31 in protest of an airline proposal to reduce crew numbers on some domestic and European flights. Six unions are involved. CGT Secretary Eyal Jonas told Bloomberg News that the walkout will occur unless the sides can come to an agreement, while The Connexion reported that AF plans to cut the equivalent of 750 fulltime cabin staff positions by the end of 2011. The airline did not acknowledge the threat.

British Airways promises more services as Air France cabin crew announce strike - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/travelnews/7466722/British-Airways-promises-more-services-as-Air-France-cabin-crew-announce-strike.html)

No doubt WW, in his role as Chairman of the Association of European Airlines, is offering words of advice on how to handle the troublemakers.

[olly_034]

Just a quick note on our unions in the US...

As a BA employee who has worked in London/WTS and is now based in New York, I can confirm to you that our union over here is very different to that of Unite/BASSA. THe union here is reasonable, logical, and has a very fair balance between looking out for the wellfare of its members, versus the wellfare of the company. It accepts the needs for change, and supports the company in achieving this in the fairest, and least intrusive way possible (as a Union should to - BASSA please take note).

As for the Cabin Crew dispute - both staff and union reps over here have very little sympathy for BASSA. And our Ground handlers are really quite indifferent to the strike, aside from the fact that it means a few less flights for them to worry about. So even if secondary strike action wasn't illegal in the US (which it is) - BASSA would probably have to bribe people for sympathy! (which of course I wouldn't put past them, although that clearly hasn't worked with the Labour Party!)

[Argus]

Secondary boycotts are illegal in Oz, too.

TRADE PRACTICES ACT 1974 - SECT 45D Secondary boycotts for the purpose of causing substantial loss or damage (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/tpa1974149/s45d.html)

[christmaslights]

"Then again, if you are not rich enough (sure you are, by the comments you write) you will have to be a second class citizen!"

yes the right to strike was a milestone in the development of modern societies. But let's not get into the meaningless propaganda:

if you are not rich enough: what is rich enough? rich enough to buy a villa in LAX? reach enough to live in another country but work in the UK, commuting and living a lifestyle that to many is a dream?

My mother was a cleaner, she worked 12 hours a day to provide for our family, my father was unable to work. When I was 13 I used to help her after school and on Sundays. We were not poor and we were not middle class. We helped our neighbours when they had nothing to eat (and it did happen quite often) because we could and it was the right thing to do, because when you are poor and believe in values, you believe that you help each other, and you help those worst off. We were left wing because we believed (as a family) that left wing was about workers, was about looking out for those in the lower class. By all means my background has nothing to do with the dispute and I cannot claim the prize for the one with the poor background. HOWEVER when I see certain arguments being used I cannot but want to put this dispute in its context.

The cabin crew job was a job regarded as aspirational, the life style it offered was a dream. It was a job that only few could aspire to, let alone get. Those who were cabin crew had their own house and could not be defined poor by a long stretch of the imagination. The new contracts might be different, but this strike is not about the new contracts, this strike is about the changes in crew numbers. This has been underlined many times.

Cabin crew have the right to strike to maintain T&C. That's a fact. Cabin crew are not the worst off social category that we need to fight for. That's another fact. The social issues of poverty and second class citizenship will not be fought by trying to maintain the privileges of few categories (the economist rightly points out who can afford to go on strike).

So let's be clear: this is not a white knight in a shiny armour in the form of Unite who has come to the rescue of poor second class citizens. This is not about changing the mechanisms of poverty and opening new opportunities for poor people. This is about fighting to maintain a lifestyle and T&Cs that were agreed in a time when being cabin crew was glam and aspirational. It is their right as we said. But if we want to use propaganda, it is also the management right to look after their own T&Cs and privileges including high pay (as Unite keeps on pointing out). Anybody spots the analogy??
:ugh:

[Safety Concerns]

sorry tigerjohn but you take a very simplistic view of all this. If you are a customer with that attitude...

All you have done is put your acid spin on this. I assume you know all the inside details and everything you posted is fact?

People need to take a long hard look at all the consequences of failure and success in this case for the whole of the aviation industry. If you are advocating that the quicker EVERYBODY in this industry gets down to the t&c and working practices levels of Ryanair ....wake up and smell the coffee.

Dont you ever dare lecture me or anyone else about my right to strike or my t&c's as long as tickets continue to be sold for a quid!

[cdtaylor_nats]

Safety your right to strike and t&c's are irrelevant if Ryan Air continues to sell tickets for a quid and BA can hardly give them away.

No BA results in your right to sign on.

"They made a desert and called it victory."

[Safety Concerns]

Your striking because you can not accept the company needs to make changes, changes are fine, as long as it does not involve you.

and that applies to everyone posting here who are demanding cc cancel the strike until its their turn

[Safety Concerns]

the postings once this is over will be more interesting than now. Perhaps after the event regardless of the outcome the real facts may come to light.

Its interesting that with Gordon Brown recently having to admit to getting his FACTS mixed up and numerous papers having to admit in front of a judge that the story they published was FICTION that 99% of this thread is based upon info from the media.

If those who are opposed to the strike would simmer down and allow those who are going to strike to voice their opinion, you would all be better placed to judge. Until that happens everything here is opinion based upon little or no fact.

[Safety Concerns]

I don't have any problems I just have my own opinion. A strike will always be emotive as it naturally causes an unwanted spilt.

My main argument here is that 99% of the posts have nothing to do with the merits of the problem which got us to this point. Whether BA goes under or not is mere speculation and probably the only person who truley knows that is WW.
Whether staff travel will be permanently removed is mere speculation as the law is very grey covering that.

I would suggest that you do not get massive balloted support for a strike without good reason and then not once but twice. So you can rant on about this and that, I would suggest that the above tells a different story.

I would like to see the real issues that brought this situation to a head discussed and not the media nonsense.

So that would mean in my utopia, no discussion about ba going under or staff travel or disruption to pax or my job possibilities after ba go under etc. etc.

I would like to discuss why over 80% of the union feel that a strike is warranted.

[pvmw]

I would like to discuss why over 80% of the union feel that a strike is warranted.
Or alternatively, discuss why it is that every other department / discipline in BA is against the CC industrial action, to the extent of volunteering in their thousands to support BA through the strike period. That there is no public support for the action, and that even the Labour Gov. which is in hock to the union has finally come out with public statements against a strike.

Does that not give you pause for thought? It should!

[Megaton]

It's not just Gordon Brown getting his facts mixed up. Crew last week had been led to believe by their union that other work groups, who shall remain nameless, had accepted a temporary pay-cut. They were shocked, to say the least, to learn that other groups had accepted permanent cuts to pay and allowances with an increase in productivity.

[etrang]

If you are advocating that the quicker EVERYBODY in this industry gets down to the t&c and working practices levels of Ryanair ... then that may be good news for pax, but why should CC care about them?

[Winch-control]

1. Bassa power struggle.
2. Imposition of working one down, bringing LHR in line with LGW.
3. CSD's unhappy at having to work the Cabin alongside CC's.
4. Refusal by BA to reinstate those '38' suspended for apparent transgression of BA rules.
5. Wishing to give Mr. Walsh a 'bloody nose'

[Safety Concerns]

[QUOTE]Or alternatively, discuss why it is that every other department / discipline in BA is against the CC industrial action, to the extent of volunteering in their thousands to support BA through the strike period. That there is no public support for the action, and that even the Labour Gov. which is in hock to the union has finally come out with public statements against a strike./QUOTE]

There is no point in discussing that as it takes us straight back to speculating. I can tell you that even within BA other departments are discussing the myths of the situation rather than the facts. That says a lot too.

I do not dispute that BASSA are losing or maybe even already lost the PR war but that doesn't mean their basis for striking is flawed.

I must also add that the vast majority of cabin crew are excellent at their job and to try and score cheap points about claiming they do not care about pax is ridiculous. Strikes are emotive, get over that fact and discuss the real issues.

[pvmw]

If you are advocating that the quicker EVERYBODY in this industry gets down to the t&c and working practices levels of Ryanair

I don't know who you are intending this reply for, but where has it ever been said by WW, BA or anyone else (other than BASSA) that this is being advocated? BA's T&Cs are still more generous than anywhere else in the industry.

... then that may be good news for pax, but why should CC care about them?

Er........ isn't that the sole and entire purpose of Cabin Crew, to care about the passengers? Without passengers there would be no need for any CC at all, which is why driving customers to the competition is such a dumb thing to be doing. I fear that simple statement has demonstrated so clearly much of what is wrong with the attitude of a vocal minority of CC to their job.

[dave747436]

I would like to discuss why over 80% of the union feel that a strike is warranted.

Because they felt they had no choice.

BASSA have turned this from a small change in cabin crew numbers that had very little effect on anybody other than the CSD, and made it into a war that (if the cabin crew lose) may well result in seismic changes to their whole way of life.

Most crew that I have flown with just wish they could wind the clock back to last summer...

[Safety Concerns]

[QUOTE]Most crew that I have flown with just wish they could wind the clock back to last summer...[QUOTE]

This doesn't really hold up does it. There have been 2 ballots on the same issue.
If above were true they would have voted no

[ottergirl]

pvmwon this forum and in the press since day 1 of this dispute. Everything I read tells me that the CC are in the wrong

You don't appear to have considered that you are only reading ONE side of the debate; this may be a Cabin Crew forum in name but in truth there are very few CC who will come anywhere near it and those that have, have quickly been driven away by some of the unnecessary vitriolic outbursts like the one quoted by Vld1977. Like VLD1977, I struggle to imagine what we collectively or individually could have done to that individual to inspire that level of hatred! The media sensationalise all IA as it makes for a better story and any strike in a service industry is bound to affect the customers. If you knew any CC, and spoke to them, you would be better equiped to judge us.

Sure, the CC unions are guilty of terrible handling of the problem but there are issues here that we are quite right to feel concerned about. The introduction of a lower paid, cheap workforce doing your job alongside you would give any right minded person cause for concern. Striking, though I disagree with this one, is a legitimate IA tool and one which is being resorted to all over the EU so it can not be that hard to wonder why 80% of my colleagues in BASSA feel so strongly about it. We are not evil holiday wreckers, we are men and women trying to earn a reasonable living to support our families and pay our mortgages. So to all the posters from outside BA, leave the hatred aside and debate the issues with an open mind, you may learn something.

[demomonkey]

Safety Concerns wrote:
and that applies to everyone posting here who are demanding cc cancel the strike until its their turnSafety, I guess from the tone of your post that we're both colleagues working for the same outfit. The volume and veracity of objections on this forum to the BASSA strike is not because of the reason for the strike (the real reason, not the stated reason) but because of the way in which BASSA has handled itself. Change is inevitable for this company not because of WW who BASSA have vilified so much but because of people like MOL, SHI et al.

The reason so many of us other colleague (inc CC) are exasperated by BASSA's actions is that they have been intransigent to reasoned discussion and change of any kind for an extended period of time (BASSA attitude: the answer is NO what's the question) where as every other group within BA has at least listened to what the company had to say even if it was unpalatable.

BASSA had a very strong mandate from its members and could have NEGOTIATED a very comfortable and mutually agreeable compromise whereby flexibility was offered in exchange for long term guarantees on net salary/allowances. But no, they SQUANDERED their position, burnt their bridges to the point where even the TUC became disturbed at the internal power struggles between factions - the TUC!

I love working with my CC colleagues, they're fun, professional, well trained and committed to the people who pay our salaries (passengers). However like many others in the company I think they could work more flexibly (to no financial loss) and not be starved out of the company. Yet BASSA has seriously misguided them, misinformed them and is about to seriously let them down because some jet-lagged loon from LA has a personality problem.

the postings once this is over will be more interesting than now. Perhaps after the event regardless of the outcome the real facts may come to light.I'm surprised that even now at this late hour you are not questioning why NO other colleague group see's the situation as you do. Not inside the company, not outside, not in the judiciary, not in the press, not in foreign unions.

BASSA is letting you down and deserves to lose your support. CC deserve better. BASSA: Belligerent, Antagonistic, Soon (to be) Swept Away.

[From Tunbridge Wells]

Some crew are being fed the line that Air France's own industrial action is in direct support of them. Shame on the mis-informers for letting this mis-information go unchecked and let crew believe this.

A steward was on the PM news on Radio 4 yesterday and likened Unite and BA as to opposing sides in a war - I agree and the only casualities will be the cannon fodder (crew)

[Juan Tugoh]

I can tell you that even within BA other departments are discussing the myths of the situation rather than the facts. That says a lot too.

If the facts are so obscure, why is there a strike? Or is this a secret that only cabin crew are allowed to know?

I'm sure BASSA can do better than that, the trouble is that the argument for this strike is SO weak that BASSA dare not discuss the real reasons for it. Rather they obfuscate and spin, spin, spin.

If the real reasons are so self evidently clear and undeniably valid why are they so well hidden that people within BA are discussing myths rather than facts? Is it because most of the crew themselves do not know or understand the facts because BASSA wish it that way. Many crew do not read the comms that BA issue believing, without question, the union mantra that BA are not to be trusted. Yet BASSA has throughout this process failed to communicate with their own people clearly what it is all about

[wiggy]

What Dave says does hold up. Most crew I've spoken to were of the opinion, once upon a time, that voting for IA would strengthen BASSAs negotiating position/ force the CEO back to the negotiating table/back down/resign...delete as applicable. They never for one minute believed they would really have to strike.

Now that they can see that the CEO will not back down many of them do indeed wish they could wind the clock back.

[dave747436]

When called upon to justify the escalation in hostilities, BASSA usually fall back upon the following:

"We cannot allow the principle of IMPOSITION to stand, or who knows what BA will impose next?"

In the Judge's summing-up in February, when he ruled the impositions legal, he was quite clear that his ruling was heavily influenced by BA's woeful financial position, and the fact that the CC unions were at each others throats and effecively not negotiating at all.

Without those two factors it is very possible that he would have ruled the impositions illegal.

I do not believe that the foundation for these strikes, the principle of IMPOSITION, is a reasonable one.

[fly12345]

Crew Forum is the biggest culprit for disseminating spin and lies.

[Safety Concerns]

come on please. Thoudsands of CC have been hoodwinked and only the individuals here can see the light. Please stop this nonsense.

You need to clear your heads of all the media nonsense and then allow the real facts to be discussed. Until that happens there is no point in continuing the discussion.

[ottergirl]

Funnily enough, this is the bit I struggled with at the beginning.

"We cannot allow the principle of IMPOSITION to stand, or who knows what BA will impose next?"



I remember coming home in October and saying that the new crew complements were alarming on Eurofleet (7 crew on DME, 3 to CDG) but not impossible, so, although it would impact on the service delivery, it was possibly the lesser of several evils. The main worry was that imposition set a dangerous precedent for future IR. If you believe in the principles of trade unionism, then changes work best if negotiated. In terms of change management, it makes the transition much easier as well.

We've discussed to death why it was imposed and I guess that was why the vote wasn't 100%!

[pvmw]

pvmw
Quote:
on this forum and in the press since day 1 of this dispute. Everything I read tells me that the CC are in the wrong
You don't appear to have considered that you are only reading ONE side of the debate
I'm not taking my stance just from what is posted on this forum, although some of the pro-strike posters on here have argued their case (I do not include WaterSideWonker in that) and I have read and heard what they say.

I understand that change is required, and I understand that it makes people uneasy, but I have watched the nauseating BASSA press releases, their disgraceful behavior both on their website and in the demonstrable falsehoods thay have peddled in the media and I have concluded that theirs is not a fight in support of the CC but an internal power struggle within a corrupt and self-serving union.

I have also read the statements and press releases of BA, the press releases of the PCCC (and please don't insult my intellignce by repeating the BASSA lie that the whole thing is a stooge of BA) and I have concluded that their statements are more credible than those of the opposition.

If my future livelihood depended on believing and trusting the management of BA or the leadership of BASSA I would have absolutely no difficulty in making my choice. I also happen to believe that good, and I stress GOOD, worker representation is necessary for the well-being of the workforce, so I would be doing my upmost to support the PCCC, who I think actually have the needs of their members at heart - something that is very obviously not the case with BASSA / Unite whose agenda is very different.

[dave747436]

[quote]Most crew that I have flown with just wish they could wind the clock back to last summer...[quote]

This doesn't really hold up does it. There have been 2 ballots on the same issue.
If above were true they would have voted noBASSA's timeline, abridged version...

First vote - "Vote yes to get the best deal possible - help your hard working Reps!!"

Second vote - "If you don't vote yes this time, Wille will do whatever he wants with your contract, your life will change forever"

Faced with this, I'm not surprised that there were two very high YES votes.
The FIRST because most crew felt it would get them the best deal.
The SECOND because many felt that they had little choice, they were in too deep.

Only my opinion - but I work with crew every day, and my wife is a WW Purser.

[flyerman2020]

RUTHANNE

A question? Are there no plans to fly long haul 747's in the strike period,
What are the chances of LHR Phoenix being re instated, I notice that they are actually flying Phoenix Heathrow on some of the strike dates, how will this work as there are no Heathrow Phoenix flights scheduled! and
when ever I have flown Heathrow Phoenix its always done on a turn around.

Or maybe they are planning to use Phoenix Sky Harbour as a plane park!!!

Apologies if my aviation used words are not in the normal way,
I'm only a interested passenger with great fears for my planned vacation

Ruthanne - My girlfriend is a pilot at BA and during the strike period, she will be repositioning an aircraft on the same route that she would have been flying (i.e. flying an empty aircraft to a destination so that it can fly back with stranded PAX)...I guess that it is the same thing happening with the flights from Phoenix to LHR, they will be repositioned to Pheonix and fly back full.

Only a guess, so don't hold me to it!!

[Swedish Steve]

Most of the B744s will be flying their normal routes, but with tech crew only, and full of freight. Where cabin crew are available for the return, pax will be carried.

[ottergirl]

the press releases of the PCCC (and please don't insult my intellignce by repeating the BASSA lie that the whole thing is a stooge of BA

I know perfectly well the background of the PCCC, maybe even some of the founders so I would not be suggesting any such thing. Just to point out though that the PCCC is a small group of likeminded individuals who represent nothing more than their own views currently. That may change in the future, but for now they remain unelected by their peers! Ultimately if they grow into a Union, then IA will be one of the few tools in their arsenal (and very little else) so lets hope whoever they elect to lead them uses it wisely.

[Flap33]

Flyerman, you beat me to it.... I believe that there will be some 747s leaving London carrying only the pilots and freight. This permits the return sector to operate as normal since strike protocol suggests that crew down-route at the commencment of strike action should operate back to base....then strike.

[Litebulbs]

Who is this BASSA who is to be swept away, or shot like a rabid dog, or destroyed etc etc etc.........

Is Mr/Mrs BASSA reading this thread and feeling threatened by physical violence?

If by BASSA, you mean the reps, well that is only a vote away from replacing them. But as votes go, the majority of crew have supported them twice.

Or is it any individual that pays a membership fee to Unite? Are they going to have to be shot like a rabid dog, because they have been "getting away" with their terms and conditions for years.

Or is it a mind set? How do you change that? Is it counselling or just dismissal? Do you get rid of all crew, or have an interview with the salem witch hunters/McCarthyist supporters, to weed out those "god darn commies".

Are you going to ask them not to be a member of a trade union? If they do not agree, then their is a future chance that the Trotskyite inside will rear its head again some day.

It is a three day stoppage. This has made people who are not cabin crew and will not be loosing any money, feel physically sick.

So back to my point, who is BASSA? Once you have identified that, what are you going to do to him, her it? I do suggest that shooting or crushing may be breaking some law or another.

[Eddy]

discuss why it is that every other department / discipline in BA is against the CC industrial action, to the extent of volunteering in their thousands to support BAI do hate BA's use of the word "volunteer". A volunteer is surely someone who works for nowt?

When cabin crew are asked to work in the terminals at times of disruption, they're volunteers. They go in on their days off and they work for nothing. I know - I've done it.

When baggage handlers and loaders etc do the same, they're paid their normal rate.

Now we see people "volunteering" to work as crew. Yet they aren't volunteers are they, really?! They'll be on their usual basic, they'll be paid our overtime and meal allowance rates (I didn't get lunch money when I went to the terminal) and they'll be doing a week of a pretty fun job, visiting some amazing places, staying in some nice hotels without the same level of responsibility as the other crew in the company.

They're not volunteering at all - they're going on a paid jolly.

[Snas]

For me the simple headline killer facts in this whole issue are: -

BASSA did not actually negotiate (source, court judgement on imposition)
BA therefore left with no alternative but to apply the cost savings in the face of never ending resolution.

No compulsory job losses, just VR which some crew have been awaiting a long time and switches to part time, which many crew have been moaning they couldn’t get in the past. No pay cut.

Small section of CC required to involve themselves in the service, as has been the case with union blessing in Gatwick for some time.

Strike therefore not justified for this issue.

The topping to all that would be false at worst and misleading information at best from BASSA to CC on far too many occasions, therefore clouding the actual issues at hand. (Known falsehoods allowed to fester and propagate on BASSA forum IS BASSA’s responsibility)

The above has now become a major international and political issue that is becoming less and less about cabin crew with an outcome that will affect them more and more.

Silly eh

[Snas]

they're going on a paid jolly.

Funny enough thats how the public now see the CC job, just add "very well" in front of the word paid.

Cabin crew were not given a thought before all this crap, now with heads stuck up above the wall and details revealed the job has been damaged in the public eye forever.

[etrang]

A volunteer is surely someone who works for nowt?

No. A volunteer is someone who offers to do something which they would not otherwise have been required to do. A soldier who volunteers for a dangerous mission, for example, still gets paid just the same as he would have done if he had not volunteered.

[ottergirl]

a major international and political issue

Now who's being silly! Troops in Afghanistan, starvation in Africa, global warming, a few of us trolley dollies downing tools! :)

Trouble with 'paid jollies' in this format is you might get shouted at, vomited on, propositioned and your feet will hurt like hell!